1906-09-21 02 03 01 SENATE 5070 0 Senate 1906-09-21 The PRESIDENT took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 5070 Questions 5070 5070 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I desire to ask the Minister representing the Minister of External Affairs, without notice, the following question: — As to the alleged importation of cooks under contract by the Perth Hospital Board, can the Minister yet inform the Senate if the Contract Immigrants Act provisions have been conspired with? 5070 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The answer to the honorable senator's question is as follows:— The 'Collector of Customs, Fremantle, states that no cooks have vet arrived in Western Australia under engagement to the Perth Hospital authorities, but that an application from the Hospital Board to engage such persons at current rates of wages has been forwarded to the Department for the approval of the Minister. 5070 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I desire to ask the Minister representing the Minister of External Affairs, without notice, the following question: — In regard to the alleged importation of a printer's machinist into Western Australia under contract, a question regarding which was asked on 4th September, can the Minister yet say if the law was fully complied with in this case? 5070 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The answer to the honorable senator's question is as follows: — The Collector of Customs, Fremantle, reports that, after his inquires into the matter, he has come to the conclusion that this man did not arrive in Western Australian under contract to the Morning Herald Newspaper Company. 5070 Adjournment 5070 5070 10.35 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS -Pursuant to standing order 61, sir, I move- That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until 930 am. on Tuesday, I do so for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgency, of which I have given you due notice. 5070 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT If the honorable senator will state what it is I shall ask four senators to rise in their places. 5070 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS The matter of urgency which I desire to discuss is "The desirableness of so arranging the business of the Senate as to permit of the general elections being held at as early a date as possible without unduly curtailing the right of the Senate to discuss important Bills involving an alteration of the Constitution.” Four honorable senators having risen in their places, 5070 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator can proceed. 5070 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Upon my arrival here this morning, sir, I was astonished to find that three Government Bills dealing with an alteration of the Constitution had been placed at the bottom of the notice paper. Section 528 of the Constitution provides that such a Bill must be passed by an absolute majority of each House, and submitted to the electors within not less than two or more than six months after its passage. A compliance with that provision means, as we all know, that the general elections must be held about the first week in December. I believe that there is a general consensus of opinion in the Chamber that at the very latest they should be held not later than the first week in that month. To-day is the 21st September. Unless the Senate is prepared to swallow those three important Bills bolus bolus—without an adequate discussion as to their merits or demerits—the elections cannot take place then, that is, if the Government should not give them precedence over measures which are not of so much urgency. The Bills are of first importance, and it is only right that the Senate, as the States' House, should scrutinize them in the closest possible way. One of them provides for the appropriation of special duties for special purposes. To that extent it will take away a financial right from each State, and therefore the Senate ought to be afforded a full opportunity to discuss its provisions. But if the Government keep those three Bills at the bottom of the notice-paper, what chance will the Senate have to discuss them? My contention is that the business should be so arranged as to afford a fair opportunity for their consideration. I do not want an extraordinary opportunity for the expression of my opinion. Including Senator Pearce's measure, there are now on the notice-paper four Bills involving an alteration of the Constitution. 5071 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON Does the honorable senator want to take the business out of the hands of the Government? 5071 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS No. But I want the Government to afford the Senate a decent opportunity to discuss four important Bills. If they are not discussed and passed during this session there will be no possibility of doing anything with them for another period of three years. 5071 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Is not that what the honorable senator wants? 5071 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS No; I want to give the honorable senator an opportunity to bring on his Constitution Alteration Bill. The Government Bills to which I refer are the Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Bill, the Constitution Alteration (State Debts) Bill, and the Constitution Alteration (Special Duties) Bill. 5071 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE This action is prompted by a leading article in the Age. 5071 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I desire, sir, to call your attention to the fact that I have been accused by an honorable senator of having been prompted in this action by a leading article in the Age. 5071 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE So it is. 5071 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I can tell the Senate —and I expect the honorable senator to take my declaration—that I did not see a copy of the Age or hear of its leading article until I had handed in the notice to the President. I do not feel particularly interested in the first two of those three Bills, but that is no reason why other honorable senators should not desire an opportunity to discuss them. In the third Bill, however, I feel specially interested, because it involves an important alteration of the Constitution affecting not only the interests of each State, but every individual therein. It involves an alteration, which, if made, would give the Government an opportunity of piling indirect taxation upon the shoulders of poor people throughout the Commonwealth. I am utterly opposed to such a system of carrying on the business of the country. Poor people have been fleeced long enough by indirect taxation, and I want to deprive every Government of the opportunity to add to their burden. If the Government do not bring forward the Bill, how can we possibly empress our opinion? Unless they afford such an opportunity, it will never get through the Senate if I can prevent its passage. There is a still more important Bill than any one of the three Senate Bills, and that is the Bill in charge of Senator Pearce to enable the Commonwealth to nationalize industries when they have become monopolies, or inimical to the interests of the public. As a member of the Labour Party, I have been specially interested in the measure. It is taking a power which I contend the Commonwealth ought to hive, and unless it is dealt with this session, the matter will be shelved for a period of three years. We have been passing Bills dealing with trusts, combines, and monopolies; but, from my point of view, all that time has been virtually wasted, and the only effective remedy is that which is provided in the Constitution Alteration (Nationalization of Monopolies) Bill. There will be no chance of referring that measure to the electors for the next three years unless it is passed two months before the ensuing elections. 5071 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR The honorable senator was not so anxious about it three months ago. He said that he would not stop here at night for any one. 5071 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Senator McGregor never heard me oppose the measure in any way. I am most anxious to do the business in which the Labour Party are particularly interested, and I have not skedaddled away from the Senate as often as the honorable senator who makes these insinuations against me. The Minister of Defence knows that I have been willing to sit up night after night to assist the Government in their business. 5072 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I know that the honorable senator was prepared to sit up all night to crush me out. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Yes, and I should be prepared to do the same thing again to-morrow. 5072 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Surely not while the alliance is on? 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I do not know why that should be said. I have made no insinuations against other honorable senators. But the fact is that if we do not swallow all that some honorable senators think we ought to swallow, we are to be attacked, and all sorts of insinuations are to be thrown out in order to discredit our motives. 5072 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR What is the honorable senator wasting time for now? Is it not self-evident? 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I contend that it is a matter of the first importance that the Senate should be given a proper opportunity to discuss proposed alterations in the Constitution before they receive its approval. I ask honorable senators to look at the arrangement of the business paper, and then say whether they can expect to get these important Bills through which must be passed two months before the election takes place. The first Order of the Day is for the resumption of the debate on the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill. 5072 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Let us take a vote on that first. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Am I to be compelled to take a vote on a Bill without expressing an opinion upon it? I have not expressed an opinion on the first, second, or third reading of that Bill so far. If I am to be a mere dumb dog, the sooner I get out of the Senate the better. 5072 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Is this the way the honorable senator takes the opportunity to express his opinion on that Bill. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I shall take the opportunity when it pleases myself. I am not at the beck and call of any member of the Senate, and no one has the right to decide whether I shall speak now or next week. 5072 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Is the honorable senator going to vote for the survey? 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I shall tell the honorable senator, and, perhaps, at considerable length, when the proper time comes. I contend that such a Bill should not be given precedence over important Bills involving alterations of the Constitution. We know that the member of the Government who is responsible for this Bill being given precedence of all other measures has made all arrangements to skedaddle away to Western Australia next Wednesday. 5072 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD He will not have this Bill in his pocket. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS When a similar Bill was before the Senate on a former occasion the Treasurer was so sure of getting it that he was over in Adelaide anticipating a wire telling him that it had been passed, in order that he might be the first to convey the glorious news to Western Australia, and reap all the honour and glory. The right honorable gentleman did not get the measure then, and I do not think he will get it this time. 5072 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT is the honorable senator discussing the question of which he has given notice? 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Yes, I think so. I am pointing out that this Bill has been given precedence of more important measures. 5072 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT That has nothing to do with John Forrest. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I have said all I desire to say on that point, and I bow to your ruling. Other measures given precedence of the Bills proposing amendments of the Constitution are the Spirits Bill, the Excise Tariff Bill, and the Bounties Bill. I am willing and anxious to assist the Government to pass these measures, but if the time of the Senate is to be wasted on measures that have not the support of a majority, no proper opportunity will be given for the discussion of Bills of greater importance. 5072 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON Why does the honorable senator say the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill has not the support of a majority when he knows that those who are opposed to it have been beaten every time they have called for a division? Of what use is it for the honorable senator to fly a kite like that? 5073 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS It has not the support of a majority if every member of the Senate were free to speak his own mind about it. Some honorable senators are being constrained to support it. 5073 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR No insinuations. Who is making them now? 5073 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS Honorable senators have said so themselves. The Government have expressed a desire that the elections should be held as early as possible, and if possible on the 21st November. If the measures on the business-paper are to be properly considered, it will not be possible to hold the elections on that date. If the Bills proposing amendments of the Constitution are postponed for another week the elections cannot be held until the first week in December. If they are postponed until next week the result will be also that the Senate will be asked to pass them without proper examination. In view of the way in which the Government are managing, the business of the Senate, I could ask whether it is likely that we shalt have even one day on which to discuss these Bills next week. We have not yet discussed the Estimates, and if the session is to close next week we shall be given no opportunity to express an opinion on the management and control of any of the public departments of the Commonwealth. I have a right, in the circumstances, to ask why time should be wasted by giving precedence to measures which are not matters of urgency over measures proposing alterations of the Constitution, which are matters of urgency, unless the elections are to be unduly postponed, or unless the latter measures are to be allowed to go by the board? I appeal to honorable senators on both sides to assist me to influence the Government to make some better arrangement of the business in order that the proposed amendments of the Constitution may be adequately discussed, and it may be possible to hold the elections before the Christmas week. That is all we can expect at the present time, but if the Government are to go on as they are now doing, it is possible that the elections will not take place until the middle of next year. 5073 10.55 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I think I may call attention to a most unusual discourtesy on the part of the Minister of Defence. We are accused of wasting time, and when the adjournment of the Senate is moved to call attention to a matter of urgent public importance, the leader of the Senate makes no reply. I admit that he is under no obligation to make a statement, but I think that if he did so, it might curtail discussion. 5073 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I notified the honorable senator of my motion before the meeting of the Senate, so that he was not taken by surprise. 5073 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY According to the Standing Orders, honorable senators are confined to a speech of fifteen minutes on this motion, so that they have not much time to waste. Senator Givens has stated that he got a shock when he looked at the business paper this morning. I do not wonder that he did, especially when we remember that the rush of business at the end of a session has often in the States Parliament, and I think also in the Federal Parliament, resulted in the passing of ill-considered measures. It has been whispered to me a number of times that we should get through things quickly, because it is necessary to close the session on next Friday. 5073 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher George Senator HENDERSON We might easily do that if the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill were out of the way. The honorable senator would he prepared to pass all the other measures in twenty four hours. 5073 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I think that is a reflection upon honorable senators. We have only to examine the business-paper to see whether the statement is correct. I ask whether it will be believed that Senator Pulsford and other honorable senators opposite will be prepared to agree to the Bounties Bill almost without discussion. I shall myself expect an opportunity to say a few words on such a matter. It will not be expected that I shall sit here like a dumb dog behind the Government when they throw a Bill on the table of the Senate and saying nothing in the interest of the State I represent. I resent insinuations of this character. I do not suppose that I have spoken a dozen times during the session, because I have not thought it necessary to talk on every measure, but it must not be supposed on that account that I am prepared to allow any measure, whatever its character, to go through without a word of protest if I do not believe in it. I have not been used to do that, and I am not likely to alter my usual practice because I happen to be a member of the Senate. It is reported in the press that the Prime Minister has asked that the business of the session should be concluded by the end of next week, because members of the Federal Parliament wish to get back to their electorates. Is it fair, in the circumstances, that the Government should so arrange the business that honorable senators who desire to do that must remain here against the interests of the people they represent, and against their own interests? In one of the Bills relating to the Constitution the Senate might make an amendment, which, of course, would have to go had: to another place ; and in such a case it would be necessary for the Government to keep together an absolute majority of each House. No doubt- the Government think it quite fair under the circumstances to ask parliamentary representatives to sacrifice their private Or public interests. Although we do not know exactly what goes on in another place, we have every reason to believe that there will be measures dealt with, in addition to those already on the business paper; and if that should prove to be so, there is bound to be congestion, with-the re suit that the measures passed will be ill considered, if they are passed at all. In my opinions it is far better to postpone business until the following session, than to have legislation which may prove inimical to the public interests. The representatives of the Government here have repeatedly been asked to lay the Estimates before us at as early a date as possible, and there was, if not a pledge, an implied promise made by the Minister of Defence that he would so arrange as to permit of a few days being devoted to this business. But how can that implied agreement or promise be carried out with the present arrangement of the business-paper? There are nine Orders of the Day, with only one third-reading amongst them, and that third-reading has been declared to be not formal, and may cause a fair amount of discussion. There are two Bills in the committee stage; and the Bounties Bill, which is set down for second reading, is of as much importance, and as likely to cause considerable debate, as any measure yet to be considered. There is wide divergence of opinion regarding the Bill I have just mentioned, and debate may be caused, not because we desire to look at the matter from the point of view of the particular States we represent, but because, from a Commonwealth point of view, we desire to give expression to the principles which we conceive to govern such questions. Altogether there are six Bills at the second reading stage, and, probably, we may be asked to consider further measures. It is only right and fair that proper time should be given for the consideration of any proposals to alter the Constitution. We do not desire to have to deal with half-a-dozen constitutional amendments without giving them the careful consideration they demand and then throw them down before the electors for rejection or otherwise but that, it appears to me, it will be the result unless the Government re-arrange their business. 5074 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor Does the honorable senator desire the last business introduced to be deat with first? 5074 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I desire the business which affects the public interests most vitally to be put in the forefront of the Government programme. 5074 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Let us have a vote on the Railway Survey Bill. 5074 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I do not agree that, because a particular Bill happens to be at the head of the business-paper, we should be asked to vote on it at once. 5074 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Does the honorable senator not desire to get on with the business? 5074 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I do, and that is the very reason I am making these remarks. I had thought that when Senator Givens concluded, the leader of the Senate would intimate that he was prepared to re-arrange the business. 5074 11.8 K0X South Australia 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I have to thank Senator Givens for his courtesy in informing me that he intended to submit this motion; but I told him at the time, straight to his face, that his proposed action was only another way of wasting time. Whether I am right or not in that view I leave honorable senators to judge. If the motion means anything it means that a certain section of the Senate desire to take the conduct of the business out of the hands of my colleague and myself. If that is done, there is one course open to me, and that is not to any longer endeavour to conduct the business as a Minister—that is plain enough. As to the conduct of the business, what did I tell honorable senators in the early part of the session? I told them, amidst cheers from the opposite side, that I intended to take one question tip at a time, and deal with it to a finish—that I did not believe in chopping about until honorable senators scarcely knew what business was coming on. So far as I have been able, I have carried out that intention, and I shall, to the best of my power, continue to carry it out to the end. 5075 11.10 JXO Queensland 0 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE There is business on the notice-paper sufficient for a whole session. I desire to call the attention of representatives of Queensland, and other honorable senators, to the Dill relating to the State debts which has come from another place, containing a provision which, so far as I am aware, has never been hinted at before, and which strikes out of the Constitution one of the safeguards of the Senate. I know I am limited, to a certain extent, in referring to that Bill, but the Senate ought to have a full opportunity to discuss such a subject as that of the transfer of the States' debts. The matter has been discussed elsewhere, and four different schemes have been propounded but, so far, the Senate has, never been officially informed of any scheme, nor have we had an opportunity to discuss the question. The Bill strikes out the safeguard that when a part of the States' debts is taken over, a proportion shall be taken over from each of the States, according to population. 5075 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator must not anticipate a debate on that Bill, except very generally. 5075 JXO 1 0 DRAKE, James George Senator DRAKE I desire to make my remarks as general as possible, leaving it to honorable senators to fill in the blanks from their know edge of the measure. I do not know what the particular object of this provision is, but if honorable senators desire to give application to my general remarks, I refer them to Coghlan, page 706, where they will find set forth the various loans which mature during the next three years. Those loans are as follows: -- Those figures cover the period to the general election of 1909. Honorable senators ought to consider carefully whether the provision of the Constitution to which I have referred is not a wise one, stipulating, as it does that debts shall not be taken over from any one particular State, and at the same time no relief given to all the other States. That was a principle carefully put into the Constitution for the protection of the States. Up to the present no action has been taken under that section. No action has been taken towards the consolidation of the debts; and now we find, at the last moment, that a Bill is sent up to us containing a provision which, I venture to say, no member of the Senate has had an opportunity to consider. We are expected to get rid of that and several other measures in a week. It is simply impossible to do so. We are being asked to amend the Constitution with absolute recklessness. We are expected to shut our eyes, and blindly accept any constitutional alteration which may be proposed. 5075 11.15 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART The present situation, so far as the Senate is concerned, seems to be one of the most serious that could possibly arise The Senate was appointed to act as the guardian of States rights under the Constitution. That is peculiarly our function. It is the purpose for which the Senate was created. One would have thought that, when several measures closely affecting the relations of the States with the Commonwealth were proposed, sufficient time would be given to the Senate to discuss them in the most careful and exhaustive manner. But, instead of that, we find that an attempt is being made by the Government in plain terms, to thrust its measures down the throat of the Senate without giving us - any adequate opportunity to discuss them. The Prime Minister, speaking in another place a week ago said that he expected and hoped that the session would close on the 28th September. Between to-day and that date there are five sitting days 5075 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE There is no reason why the time should not be extended for a fortnight. 5075 11.15 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART There is probably no reason, from the honorable senator's point of view, why that period should not be extended, but we know that if that happens a great deal of inconvenience will be caused to a great number of Members of Parliament who have to go before their constituents for re-election. 5076 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I have to go before my constituents, the honorable senator has not. 5076 11.15 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART But Senator Pearce's re-election is sure. I suppose, being out of the wood himself, so to speak, he does not care what befalls other honorable senators, whose position with the electors is by not means so definite, and who are called upon to remain in Melbourne much longer than is desirable. I hope that it may be possible to close the session at the end of next week. But to accomplish that object, it is desirable that the most important business should be taken first. What is the most important business upon the notice-paper to-day? The very Constitution under which we are governed contains abundant evidence that an alteration of the Constitution is the most important legislative act which can be performed, either by the Parliament of the Commonwealth or by the people. Let honorable senators consider by what safeguards an alteration of the Constitution is surrounded. A proposed alteration must not only pass both Houses of this Parliament, but it must be passed by a majority of each house; and, after it has run the gauntlet of Parliament, it must be presented to the people of the Commonwealth, and must be passed by a majority of them in a majority of the States. So that by no stretch of imagination can any other business that it is possible to bring before the Senate be said to be of more importance than a proposed alteration of the Constitution. Yet the Government has deliberately put Bills before us, three of which involve alterations of the Constitution, and they, in the last week of the session, are placed at the bottom of the business-paper, whilst a great amount of other important business remains absolutely untouched. The Minister of Defence said this morning that if the Senate took the business out of the hands of the representatives of the Government, there would be nothing for him to do but to resign. Mr. President, if the business of the Country is not to be carried on with more ability and capacity, and regard for the interests of the people than has been the case lately, I shall welcome the resignation not only of the honorable senator, but of the Government of which he is a member. 5076 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE The honorable senator changes his opinions very frequently. 5076 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I change them when the occasion demands change. I am not bound to any set of ideas when circumstances seem to me to involve an altered attitude. The Government, by its action, has deliberately flouted the Senate. Here are measures which are peculiarly the care of the Senate. - Let us look at them for a moment. There is proposed an alteration of the Constitution dealing with the transference of States debts to the Commonwealth. No one will deny that that is a proposal of the very utmost importance. It is a vital question, so far as both States and Commonwealth are concerned. I maintain that no other question that can be brought before the Senate can compare in importance with this, to take from the States the control of their debts. I may be in favour of the proposal of the Government, or I may be opposed to it, but in any case my anxious desire is that the utmost opportunity should be given to me, and to other members of the Senate, being, as we are, the guardians of the rights of the States, for an exhaustive discussion of it. That opportunity has not been given. I do not know whether the Government considers us to be capable of discussing subjects of this importance, or whether it regards the Senate as a quantity of no importance, or desires to thrust its measures down the throat of the Senate, however willing or unwilling we may be to accept them. What the opinion of the Government may be is, however, of very little consequence from my point of view. I am sent here by the people of Queensland to look after their interests. I find that the Government proposes to deal with matters which closely affect the welfare and business of the people of the State. I therefore claim, as my right, that the largest and fullest opportunity shall be given for the consideration of these questions. In addition to the proposal with regard to the States debts another important constitutional alteration is submitted — one which changes absolutely the financial bargain entered into between the States and the Commonwealth when Federation was instituted. It is now proposed to give the Commonwealth power to levy certain Customs duties without incurring the obligation to return any portion of the receipts to the States. Surely that is a question that demands from every member of the Senate the closest, most microscopical examination. 5077 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD That, of course, is not of such importance as the desert railway! 5077 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I am not going to deal with the railway. I have not mentioned it. 5077 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher George Senator HENDERSON Of course, it has not the slightest connexion with this discussion! 5077 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART It has not in my mind. I am referring to matters which are of very much more importance to the Commonwealth than the mere building of a railway across a sandy desert. If this Government were worthy of its position — if it were worthy of the name of a Government — it would put measures on the notice paper in the order of their importance. If the Government thinks that the survey of a railway across the Australian desert is of more importance from the point of view of the Senate than the three last measures on the business-paper, I, for one, have last all hope of the Government, and consider that the sooner we have gentlemen in charge of the business of the Senate who have a clearer grasp of the importance of one item of business as compared with another, the better it, will be for the people of Australia. 5077 11.29 KSH Tasmania 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE I was very sorry indeed to hear the Minister of Defence say that his practice was when once the discussion on a Bill was commenced, to carry it through; because I find from the Journals of the Senate, that the honorable senator has not always carried through a piece of business when it has been begun. The Minister has not done that in regard to the “desert" railway. If he really wants to save public time, it would be better for him to postpone the order of the Day relating to the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill until more important measures have been dealt with, and then in the order of their importance. 5077 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD That is the whole object of the motion. 5077 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE The Constitution Alteration (Senate Elections) Bill, which has been passed, will be quite useless unless the Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Bill is also passed. That is an important measure, which ought to be proceeded with. From my point of view, there is another important measure, and that is the Tasmanian Cable Rates Bill. It is only a very tardy measure of justice, which has been promised for a long time. I would urge upon the Minister that by a little re-arrangement of the business on the notice-paper, he could save public time. 5077 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The honorable senator wants to take the control of business out of my hands. 5077 KSH 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE No. 5077 11.31 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I think that Senator Givens deserves every credit for submitting this motion. If the first Order of the Day had not been what it is, there is not a single senator on the other side—although those senators made many imputations while he was speaking—who would not have heartily indorsed his action. I believe that Senator Playford will have good reasons to regret almost every word he uttered. 5077 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I am sorry to interrupt the honorable senator, but I think that we ought to have a quorum. [Quorum formed.] 5077 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS The Minister of Defence gave us to understand most clearly that, having regard to the late period of the session, in his view the importance of the measures which still remain to be dealt with is represented by their order on the notice-paper. If he had had any regard not merely for the Senate, but for the position of the Ministry, be could not have made a more disastrous statement. An analysis of the statement reveals - the fact that the admittedly important measures occupy the lowest - place on the notice-paper. I admire the Minister when he says, "I am in charge of the business, and unless I am allowed to conduct -it as I think fit, you can get somebody else to take my place, "but the remark has not been made at the right time. Directly, and indirectly, the honorable senator has often asked us to let him understand, so far as we can in the circumstances, what is the view of the Senate as to the importance and urgency of certain business. If he will admit that he has done so, the admission will not be in the least degree derogatory to his position as a Minister. What does the motion for adjournment give him an opportunity to ascertain? It enables him to ascertain the strong feeling of the Senate in regard to important work which it wishes to discharge before the session terminates. 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Why do not honorable senators discharge the work? Why do they nor vote in a constitutional manner? 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS That is a most unfair statement for the honorable senator to make. 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE The honorable senator knows that he is preventing a vote from being taken. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I have not wasted any time, and I recognise that the great object of this motion is to help the Government to economize time. Suppose that the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill had not been the first Order of the Day, is there one who would more cordially indorse what Senator Givens has said than the honorable senator? 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE No, I would say that we should go on with the Bills before the Senate. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I believe that the honorable senator would join with us in impressing upon the Government the necessity of proceeding with the consideration of important business, and affording ample time to the Senate for that purpose. Has not the honorable senator supported me whenever I have reminded Senator Playford that we want ample time for the consideration of the Appropriation Bill? It is the most important Bill of the session, and it has not yet been received from the other House. 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE If honorable senators pass the Bill for the survey they can have the Appropriation Bill by next week 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS Does the honorable senator attach so much importance to that Bill as to allow it to threaten the passage of measures which are of the greatest importance to the Commonwealth, every State, and every citizen? 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I hold that the majority of the Senate have the right to express their opinion, and that the honorable senator ought to let them do so. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS The majority are exercising their right, but that is not the question under consideration. If the session had still three months to run such a question could not arise, but with only about a fortnight at our disposal, we must begin to consider the relative importance of all the measures. 5078 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE If this is a minor matter why devote so much time to it? 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS It is not a minor matter. I would infinitely sooner pass one-half of the Bills with proper consideration, than pass the whole lot rapidly and without consideration. 5078 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD There is no quorum, sir. [Quorum formed.] 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS If we pass all these measures, it will be done with the absolute certainty that next session, or subsequently, we shall be asked to amend or repeal them. The statute book is getting filled up with measures to repeal an existing Act, or to repair defects which arose through slovenly consideration, induced very often by want of time. The notice paper does not indicate all the measures which we are to be asked to consider this session. When I asked that the Minister of Defence should arrange for the Senate to have three clear days for discussing the Appropriation Bill, Senator Pearce was the one who immediately interjected, "Three days are not enough." How does the Minister intend to give the Senate three dear days now for that purpose? And how does he hope to face the Senate if that time cannot be afforded? He has admitted his willingness and desire to afford the opportunity for a full discussion. 5078 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Let the honorable senators take a division on the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill, and they can go on with their work at once. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS I am not discussing that Bill. 5078 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I know what the honorable senator is doing this for. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS The Minister in making that sort of interruption when I am seriously discussing the conduct of public business is not likely to further the interests of the Government or of the Senate generally. 5078 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The honorable senator keeps on asking me questions, and when I answer him, he "cuts up rough." If he did not ask questions, then I would not answer. 5078 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS The Minister's one answer to me is. -" Do not discuss this Bill." In addition to the nine Government Orders of the Day on the notice-paper and the Appropriation Bill, I assume that the Senate will be called upon to consider a measure relating to the duty on stripper-harvesters, and also a measure relating to the duties on agricultural machinery. It is hardly necessary for me to draw attention to the importance of the three Constitution Alteration Bills. Does the Minister recognise that the enactment of the Referendum (Constitution Alteration) Bill is absolutely necessary in order to give effect to the Constitution Alteration (Senate Ejections) Bill? Does he recognise that the Constitution Alteration (State Debts) Bill is of the vast importance which has been outlined by Senator Drake? Does he recognise that the burning question which has been before the people of Australia for the last five years — the provision of old-age pensions — is certainly wrapped up in the Constitution Alteration (Special Duties) Bill? In those circumstances, is it a source of wonder that Senator Givens, or any one else, should take steps to draw the attention of the Minister to the great risk he is running of those important measures being shelved for this session A most serious situation has been pointed out to the Minister. I hope he will recognise the fact that, but for a certain amount of party difference in regard to one Bill, the Senate almost to a man would insist upon a full opportunity being afforded for the proper discharge of its legislative duties. 5079 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Get that measure out of the way, and that will all cease. 5079 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS What does the interjection imply? It implies that in the deliberate opinion of the Minister that Bill is of more importance than all the others On the notice-paper. 5079 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD No; it implies that honorable senators have wasted time. 5079 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS It does not. 5079 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT I submit that honorable senators have wasted time. 5079 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS That accusation is almost too ridiculous for me to notice. It simply means that the moment a majority of one, such as it is, is established, the ordinary right of a senator to give to that Bill proper consideration, and in view of the close difference to make every effort to arrive at another conclusion, is to be set aside. 5079 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Every fair effort. 5079 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT Order! 5079 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator CLEMONS Every effort which has been made to discuss that Bill has been fair, and Senator Playford, as you, sir, have properly recognised, is not in order in imputing improper motives. The Standing Orders are the test of the fairness of the opposition to the Bill. If he can accuse us of having broken them, and thereby obtained an advantage then he would be in a position to say that we had secured an unfair advantage. But the position is, that if any advantage was gained by the breach of the Standing Orders it was gained not by the opponents of the Bill, but by Senator. Playford and those who support him in giving the measure an importance which far transcends that which even its most ardent supporters are entitled to give it. 5079 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I must direct attention to the absence of a quorum. [Quorum formed.] 5079 11.46 KLZ New South Wales 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Even at the risk of being charged with wasting a certain amount of time, it is the duty of honorable senators who feel strongly on the subject to protest against the way in which the business is being conducted. At the close of the session a mass of important business is thrown at our heads, and we are asked to deal with it speedily to facilitate the closing of the session. How far has the Government assisted in this matter? They were aware that they contemplated the introduction of a number of most debatable measures, and instead of taking time by the forelock in the early part of the session they allowed the Senate to remain with an insufficient amount of work to do. Many measures might have been introduced in the Senate which have been introduced in another place, and the only reason which can have actuated the Government in adopting the course they have followed is that they consider that the House of Representatives occupies a position of greater importance than the Senate. If the measures to which I refer had been introduced in the Senate they would have been fully debated. That course was not followed, and the result was that we found ourselves without any work to do, and had to take a spell of three or four weeks because measures on which we might have been engaged were submitted to the other Chamber in the first instance. Every member of the Senate, whether he supports the Government or not, should he prepared to set himself against this treatment of the Senate. 5079 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE Every Government has done the same thing. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD With one or two exceptions every important measure that has first been introduced in another place might have been initiated in the Senate. If they had been time of the country would have been saved and reasonable consideration might have been given to the legislation submitted. Senator O’Keefe says that every Government has done the same thing, but he will admit that that is no excuse for the present Government, who took office with a full knowledge of the protests which had been made against the way in which previous Governments had treated the Senate. We should insist that more respect shall be given to the Senate in these matters. 5080 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT On the merits of the protest we join with the honorable senator, but we know that on this occasion he has no regard whatever for the protest. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD I have every regard for it, and Senator Croft must know that perfectly well. He might contend that this discussion has a tendency to delay the consideration of the Kalgoorie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill 5080 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Undoubtedly it has. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD I have taken advantage of every opportunity to enter my protest against the way in which Government after Government have treated the Senate, and I will continue to do so. 5080 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN Senator Croft thinks that the honorable senator is doing what is right, but he would sooner do what is wrong in order to save his railway. 5080 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT That is not fair. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Does Senator Croft know the way in which this Bill has been dealt with? 5080 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT I do. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD On the 8th August the second reading was moved by the Minister of Defence, and on the motion of Senator Pearce the resumption of the debate was made an order for the following day. When the government enable the honorable senator to address himself to the measure? It was brought on again until the 7th September, so that a full month was allowed to elapse from the time the second reading was moved before the first speaker after the Minister was given and opportunity to discuss it. Why did not Senator Pearce insist upon the Government bringing the Bill on earlier? Every member of the senate was aware that there would be strong opposition to the measure. We know that the desire was postpone its consideration until he closing days of the session, in order that honorable senators might be prevented from expressing their opinions upon it fully and freely. We know that honorable senators opposite were waiting to count heads, and when they found that they had a majority of one in favour of the measure they felt it was necessary to risk all in order toa void the change that they had not pushed the matter forwards as they might have done. 5080 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT The honorable senator is aware that, on a previous occasion, in order to block the measure, Senator Dobson continued to speak until the Governor-General arrived. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD I cannot help that. It was Senator Dobson’s duty to his constituents to state his objection to the measure, and he was justified in talking it out when the Government did not submit it for the consideration of the Senate in proper time. Why was not this measure brought forwards at an earlier date? I complain that we should be called upon in the last days of the session to deal with a bounties bill, old-age pensions, preferential trade, the transfer of States debts and provision for the imposition of special duties in order, not merely to carry out a scheme of old-age pensions, but any other scheme the Government might have in hand. Whatever the opinion of honorable senators may be in connexion with these measures, they must all admit that they are of paramount importance, and pregnant with mater for consideration and debate. I ask whether Senator Findley, who, I believe, is a free-trade, is prepared to have a dose of protection thrust down his throat by means of preferential trade proposals of the government? 5080 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I should prefer a dozen doses of protection to the infliction to which we have been subjected during the last three or four days. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Then I advsie the honorable senator to take a dose of the physic as soon as he can. 5080 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY It is good physic. 5080 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD I do not like it. If the honorable senator is begrinning to think that it is good, I at least have not changed my views on the matter. 5080 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The honorable senator shows how much he desires protection when he allows the Western australian Railway to interpose between it. 5081 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The Bill is for a survey, and not for the construction of the railway. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD The honorable senator knows that as a first step towards a railway we must make a survey of the route. If some honorable senators are prepared to salve their conscience in the matter by saying that they do not believe in the construction of the railway, and that the Bill provides only for a survey, and binds us to nothing, except, perhaps, to threw £20,000 of the people's money away, let them do so. It is charitable to assume that the Government knew three months ago that before the session closed they would submit measures dealing with preferential trade, old-age pensions, and bounties, and they should have introduced those measures long ago, in order that they might be fully discussed. If they think that because they have managed to scramble them through in another place—after sittings of from sixteen to twenty hours, when men are not in a condition to do their work properly—we are going to swallow them without consideration, they reckon very much without their host. They will find that there are members of the Senate who are prepared 'to discuss the merits of all measures submitted to them. They should remember the consideration which we gave to the Tariff, the fights we had, and the compromise which had to be arranged 'to carry the Tariff as it stands at present. 5081 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY It does not do the Parliament very much credit. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD I am sorry to say that it does not, but certain things could not be done, and we had to do what seemed best in the circumstances. With a knowledge of what occurred in connexion with the Tariff, I am surprised that the Government should now propose to increase the duties by means of preferential proposals. 5081 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT The honorable senator knows that that does not concern him now. What he is concerned about is the blocking of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD No; that is Senator Croft's concern, and the honorable senator has been harping upon it ever since I rose to speak. The honorable senator has insinuated that honorable senators opposed to the measure have attempted to "stonewall" it, but I ask him what he participated in on Wednesday morning? 5081 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT That was the only time I spoke on the Bill. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD It is remarkable that the only time on which the honorable senator spoke on the measure should have been when it became necessary to " stone-wall " it. 5081 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Because honorable senators opposite would not give a pair for an absent member. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Because we did not know in what way he desired to vote on the motion then before the Senate, which was for the recommittal of the Bill. As a matter of fact, the honorable senator referred to voted for the motion, and if we had agreed to a pair it would have been against his desire. 5081 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT The caucus of honorable senators opposite is getting pretty strong now. It can influence votes. 5081 10000 0 0 President, the The PRESIDENT I ask Senator Croft not to interject. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD If the honorable senator's caucus had exercised its power with the Government, who are supposed to be its willing or unwilling slaves, and to jump as the string pulls them, more time might have been given for the consideration of the measure. 5081 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT When I have been asked not to interrupt it is not quite fair to attack me. 5081 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD The honorable senator will have an opportunity to reply to anything I have said. I trust Ministers will so arrange the business as to enable us to deal with the more important measures on the paper 'within the few days left to us before the session closes. It would certainly be fairer for the Government to jettison some of their measures and leave them for the consideration of a new Parliament and of new men, or, at any rate, men who have just been returned with the approbation of the people. Apparently the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill was regarded as of little importance at one time, seeing that it was allowed to sleep for a month or, perhaps, although it was regarded as important, the votes were so doubtful that it was decided to keep it until the last moment, and then thrust it down the throats of honorable senators. There is no reason why the Bounties Bill should not have been introduced months ago. We know that there is only a limited period within which alterations of the constitution can be determined; but, even so, it is very unfair that the Government should in the last moments of a dying Parliament introduce measures so important. 5082 12.1 JXT New South Wales 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I am sure the Minister will acquit me of anything like factions opposition during the present session; and if I rise now, it is with a sense of the importance of the point which I desire to submit, and which has not been mentioned in the course of the debate. There are measures on the business-paper which cannot pass unless by an absolute majority of this chamber; and if, for example, then senators were absent electioneering, there would be left only twenty-six senators. Under such circumstances, as will readily be seen, a very small minority could absolutely prevent the passage of any of the measures for the amendment of the Constitution. 5082 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Thaat is the lookout of the absent senators. 5082 12.1 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD But it is also our “look-out.” This chamber is designed to protect the interests of the States: and those interests are essentially affected by some of the measures to come before us. I particularly refer to the measure-low down on the notice-paper – which proposes an alteration of that section of the Constitution known as the “Braddon Blot.” This section was the subject of the gravest and most prolonged discussion in the Federal Convention. It was contested most keenly by every public man of eminence throughout the Commonwealth; and from time to time it has been the subject of most important deliberations by the Premiers and Treasurers of all the States. Are we, as the last expiring breath of this Parliament is being drawn, to hurry-skurry such as a measure through the Chamber with a bare quorum; and that, perhaps, would be more desirable than the hasty passage of a proposal dealing with a matter which has been the subject of most profoundly deliberation by every leading statesman, and many persons who are not statesman. I think the Government are running a tremendous risk in endeavouring to transact such business when a certain proportion of honorable senators may have left. 5082 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY In view of the importance of this subject. I call attention to the state of Senate. [Quorum formed.] 5082 12.1 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD What would be the use of having a call of the Senate, even at only one or two days’ notice, when honorable senators were scattered throughout the Commonwealth? There is the greatest chance of these constitutional alteration being defeated owing to the absence of the required absolute majority. If only three or four senators on this side of the Chamber were to vote in the negative on the Government would hoist with their own petard, and rendered absurd in public estimation, because of their conducting parliamentary business as to attain a magnificent futility. This Senate is the custodian of the rights of all states – not the rights of one State, or two States. Nor ought we regard the mendicancy of higher duty to discharge the connexion with the larger questions of expenditure, defence, Tariff alteration, and the great and overwhelmingly important question of preferential trade. These are matters which affect every part and citizen of the Commonwealth, and are of infinitely greater consequence than the forcing through of a railway survey scheme which has hitherto been principally supported by luncheon parties in a back room of this building. Apparently, however, this luncheon party influence, after a good run of four or five years, has come to an end; and we have arrived at a stage when a majority of one – obtained by a process to which I need not again refer, though there was a most unhappy breach of a pair – enabled the second reading to be carried. 5082 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN And there was the sudden conversion of a Minister 5082 12.1 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Perhaps that also. 5082 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Henry Senator KEATING There was no conversion. 5082 12.1 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD The luncheon parties have ceased, and all the points that could be worked in connexion with pairs have been resorted to; and now it is sought to sacrifice every public interest to Western Australian medicancy. The proposed alterations of the Constitution, old-age pensions, Tariff alteration in the interests of McKay and Company, preferential trade nominally in the interests of Great Britain but actually in the interests of Footscray and Collingwood, the defence of Australia, the consideration of all the great subjects involved in the Appropriation Bill—all these are as of no consequence whatever so long as two States of the Commonwealth have a survey conducted within their borders at the public expense. That is the position which the Ministry, unhappily, have taken up. I make no apology for saying that this survey Bill ought to "take a back seat" if the Government mean the greater issues I have mentioned to be brought to a vote. If by any chance, owing to the contingencies I have indicated, those great measures are not dealt with, we shall possibly have the Ministry going to the country with a melancholy wail about their slaughtered innocents and contending that slaughter was rendered necessary by the recalcitrancy of one half of the Senate. Even a minority has a right to use all the forms of the Chamber to cause the delay of what they regard as an undesirable measure, just as the Government have a right to make use of those forms, and, within reasonable and institutional limits, their authority in the Chamber, to further measures to which they attach importance. Why have we so many processes of dealing with a Bill, with all the possibilities of amendment? It is in order that there may be full discussion, and no needlessly hasty legislation, and also that the rights of the minority may be conserved in the performance of what they believe to be their duty to those who send them here. We are not here as the advocates of any railway, the approval of which would enable us to gain votes or kudos at an election; we are here in the interests of the Commonwealth to do that which we believe to be in the public interest. I sincerely and respectfully urge upon the Minister that he should consider the interest of public business rather than that of a railway survey which, on the showing of its supporters, is of no consequence, because nothing is necessarily to be done to carry out the ultimate intention after it is passed. What is the use of wasting time, and jeopardizing the great constitutional problems submitted to us, by pressing through a measure which no one in particular wants, except, perhaps, the author of many pleasant luncheon parties, and two or three gentlemen who would find the passage of the measure—no matter whether an is done under it or not—useful to them in connexion with the coming elections. 5083 12.16 JVC Tasmania 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON I think we should have a quorum present to listen to the debate. [Quorum formed] When this morning I asked the Minister of Defence to make a statement in regard to public business, I never expected to listen to the utterance which fell from his lips. It is one of the most important duties of the leader of the Senate to take an interest in the conduct of its business, and to map out the order in which measures are to be disposed of. My honourable friend has made no attempt whatever to arrange the business in an orderly fashion, He left us just as wise after he had spoken as we were before. He simply told us that he is going to stick to the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill until it is passed, and that then we can do what we like. 5083 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Oh no; we can re-arrange the notice-paper. 5083 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON I gather from several honorable senators who have spoken that my honorable friend's statement that his practice has been to stick to a particular piece of business until it has been disposed of has not been pursued. After the second reading of the Railway Survey Bill was moved, a month elapsed before any other honorable senator said a word upon it. It looks as if the Minister had departed from his proper practice in order to delay this contentious subject till the end of the session, so that he might then be able to force it through. Does not the honorable senator think that the notice-papers of the Senate and of -another place require anxious thought? I should have imagined that the Minister of Defence would have had a conference with the Prime Minister, in order to determine what Bills might be dropped and what business it was necessary to persist in. How can the Bills for amending the Constitution be passed into law in the time at our disposal? According to our Standing Orders, there must be a call of the Senate with regard to them, and of that call fourteen days' notice must be given. I can quite understand that, under pressure of business at the end of the session, Standing Orders may with advantage be suspended, but we ought not to order a call at twenty-four hours' notice. My honorable friend tells us that he is going to ask the Senate to sit on Mondays. Although I am willing to work as hard as any man, and to do my duty as a senator, I say plainly that I am not disposed to consent to Monday sittings. I feel that I am not physically or mentally fit for such an increase of work. As it is, although I breakfast early and am hard at work at my newspapers before half-past eight every morning, I find it impossible to get them read and noted before half past ten. I have no time to consult authorities with, regard to the business to come before the Senate, but have to rush over to this building in order to be in my place as soon as work is commenced. I trust that the Minister will not insist upon that proposal. If be does, the business of the Senate is bound to be done in an unsatisfactory manner. The Bills proposing alterations in the Constitution require to be discussed with the utmost care. I suppose there is no subject of prominent importance in politics to-day which is of greater interest than old-age pensions. When that matter is dealt with, I shall have a few words to say, especially as a notice of motion which I had on the paper dealing with it cannot be reached, because it is amongst the private business which has had to be sacrificed. I shall explain that while I am in favour of old-age pensions, I am not in favour of such systems as prevail in Victoria and New South Wales. In other words, I shall consent to no scheme of old-age pensions unless by it some effort is made to establish thrift, and to enforce a recognition of the principle that every man in the community should endeavour to make provision for his old age. Another amendment of the Constitution deals with the transfer of the debts of the States. That is an exceedingly important subject. But we have not had the slightest opportunity to discuss the various schemes for solving the financial problem which have lately been put before this Parliament. When the Estimates come before us we may reasonably expect to devote four whole days to their consideration. Otherwise they will be passed in a. slip-shod manner, and many criticisms which might fairly be launched against them will have to be withheld through lack of time. The Minister ought to have told us when we are likely to deal with the Appropriation Bill. Does he expect that he will be able to ram it down our throats without our having any opportunity to discuss it? 5084 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The honorable senator can get a copy of the Estimates at any time, and can go through them at his leisure. 5084 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON But what is the use of studying the Estimates if one is not to give the Senate the benefit of his investigations? We also have the Bounties Bill to consider. I have looked into it with some care, and every morning I have brought a quantity of books and papers over to the Senate, thinking that I might secure an opportunity to speak upon it. Does the Minister intend to ask us to proceed with that Bill, and if so, when? I am afraid that honorable senators who have studied the question with care are in danger of forgetting their own arguments in consequence of the delay in bringing the Bill forward. Why does not the Minister tell us what measures are to be dropped? For my own part, I think that the Bounties Bill might as well be laid aside, because Sir William Lyne has admitted that he has never consulted the States about the bounties that would be most useful. The measure is certainly not a fifth part as important as either of the three Bills amending the Constitution. What is the use of pushing on the Railway Survey Bill? The Minister knows that the survey cannot be proceeded with without the consent of South Australia. Why cannot the question be postponed until we see what South Australia is willing to do? South Australia might give her consent in such a way that the Commonwealth would not desire to go on with the work. The Minister of Defence, and even Senator Keating, might find that they could not vote for the construction of the line. 5084 12.31 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I desire to express the surprise and regret with which I listened to the very petulant remarks of the Minister of Defence. One might have expected that he would have replied to Senator Givens in the way which his indictment demanded. Certainly, he made out a case for a reconsideration of the order in which the business should be planed before the Senate. Whether his arguments were good or bad, the practice, as well as the courtesy of parliamentary life, made it incumbent on the Minister to vouchsafe a proper reply. As Senator Findley expressed a desire recently that there should be a quorum, I think, sir, that his wish ought to be gratified now. [Quorum formed.] The reply of the Minister amounted to a threat that he would feel called upon to resign if the Senate took the business out of his hands. I am not aware that any one has attempted to take that course. All that has been done has been to take the only and the orderly course of bringing before his notice certain reasons why there should be a re-arrangement of the order of the Government business. There was no other way, in which the matter could be raised. If the Standing Orders had provided for a "grievance day," it would not have been necessary for Senator Givens to move the adjournment of the Senate. But that was the only course open to him. It was really childish for the Minister to assert that it was an attempt to take the business out of his hands. The object of the motion was to afford to honorable senators an opportunity to tell the Minister that the order of the business is not such as it ought to be, and is not likely to conduce to a satisfactory conclusion to the session. If he means to say that he is to be above criticism, that no one is to have the slightest right to express an opinion as to the order in which the business should be proceeded with, then he quite mistakes the position of a Minister and the position of the Senate. It is the right of every honorable senator to express his individual opinion on any question, and also as to the order in which various matters should be brought forward. I am greatly surprised that Senator Playford should venture to assert that because he is a Minister he has the right to dictate to the Senate as to what it should and should not discuss. That he of all others should resent criticism of the programme he has submitted surpasses my comprehension. 5085 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Does the honorable senator say that the Railway Survey Bill is not in its proper position on the notice paper? 5085 12.31 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN have not referred to that Bill, but if the honorable senator means to inquire whether, in my opinion, it is on the notice-paper in accordance with the Standing Orders, I reply that it is. The notice-paper contains nine Government Orders of the Day. Although it is not permissible for me to refer to the proceedings of the other House, still it is a matter of common knowledge that the Government have expressed their intention to put through this session no less than ten other measures. Assuming that the Government are sincere in their profession, then we shall have to add the ten Bills which have yet to be dealt with in the other House to the nine Bills which are before the Senate. The former are not Bills dealing with minor matters. For instance, there is a measure to introduce penny postage throughout the Commonwealth'. Whether penny postage is in itself desirable or undesirable, the effect which its introduction would have upon the finances of the States renders it imperative that the Senate should have an ample opportunity in which to discuss the Postal' Rates Bill. If in the Senate, which was specially created to safeguard the rights of the States, the discussion of a measure of that kind occupied two days, could it be said by any stretch of imagination that too much time had been given to it? Again, take the Pacific Island Labourers Bill. All the instincts of humanity require that it should be closely scrutinized and examined, for, no matter what views may be held on the question of a White Australia, I venture to say that, even the most ardent believer in the expulsion of the kanakas will not demand that they should be deported except with a due regard to all the requirements of humanity. Therefore, for the credit of Australia, it is necessary that the Pacific Island Labourers Bill should be examined carefully by the Senate before it is passed. In the Preferential Ballot Bill, the Government propose to ask the Senate to deal with a new method of voting, by which the electors would be able to intimate their preference in regard to the candidates at any election. That is proposing not a slight alteration of the electoral system, but a revolutionary change. Could it be said that the Senate, consisting of thirty-six members, was unduly consuming time if it devoted even one day to the consideration of the second reading of a measure of that importance? I desire to refer to the position in which we are likely to be placed in regard to the Estimates. From all sides of the Chamber, quite irrespective of parties or political sympathies, there has been a general expression of regret at the continued slight which has been offered to the Senate by the perfunctory way in which Appropriation Bills and Supply Bills have been practically thrown upon the table, with a curt intimation that unless they were dealt with straight away something would a fair and full opportunity of discussing the financial position of the country. A bad practice has been allowed to spring up, and I venture to say that, later on, a Minister will justify his action on the ground that he is only following an invariable practice. It rests with the Senate to say whether it is content to allow the evil to grow until it gets past cure, or whether it is content to sink into an utterly subordinate position. It is only on a motion of this kind that the Senate can make it abundantly clear that it is not prepared to be thrust into a subordinate position, but will insist upon having a full opportunity in which to safeguard the interests of the Stares be making a close examination of the Estimates. Will any one say that three days would be too much time for the Senate to devote to an examination of the Appropriation Bill? It is a matter of common knowledge that the Estimates for a State frequently occupy the attention of the Legislative Assembly for some weeks, let alone a matter of days. We have to remember that we have not yet received the Tariff proposals with respect to harvesters and agricultural machinery generally. We know that there will be a considerable fight over them. So long as the fiscal question remains unsettled, once it is brought into the arena of party politics, it is as inevitable as that the sun will rise in the morning that there will be a conflict of opinion and a discussion which will occupy a considerable amount of time. I have allowed three days for the discussion of the Estimates, two days for the Postal Rates Bill, a day for the Preferential Ballot Bill, and, considering the time which must be occupied in discussing the proposals with respect to harvesters and agricultural machinery, I should say I have accounted for a full week. 5086 KVD Tasmania 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY I rise to join in the protest made by honorable senators who have preceded sue against the treatment not merely of the Senate, but of the whole Commonwealth, involved in the manner in which the Government have conducted the business of Parliament during the present session. The session was opened with one of the longest Vice-Regal speeches on record. I have it before me, and I see that it contains thirty-six separate paragraphs, promising the consideration of business of first importance to the Commonwealth. We have some right to assume that the promises made in the opening speech by the Governor-General will be fulfilled by His Excellency's advisers. They include a number of measures, which, so far, do not appear on the notice-paper. We have seen it stated in the press day after day that it is almost certain that the session will terminate within the next few days. In spite of this fact, most important measures are given second and third place to a Bill which, unfortunately, was introduced by the Government, and, still more unfortunately, by previous Governments, and we are spending, our time in discussing a matter of interest to one State only, whilst I say advisedly we are neglecting the interests of the Commonwealth at large in postponing the consideration of legislation we were sent here to pass. His Excellency the Governor-General, at the opening of the session, said— My advisers have prepared a scheme for giving assistance to those connected with the cultivation of the soil, and for the encouragement of new industries. Doubtless that scheme having been prepared so early has been put into the form of a Bill, and will, in time, be brought before the Senate. How are we to find time to deal with such important matters? Apart from the measures referred to, in the Governor-General's speech, we have to consider the business already on the notice-paper. I direct the attention of honorable senators to the motion moved by Senator O'Keefe dealing with the distribution of revenue and expenditure. It is passed over day after day and week after week, when we know that it ought to be settled. There is no question of greater importance to the Commonwealth than that with which it deals. Some little time ago we had every reason to hope that a majority of honorable senators would be prepared as a matter of justice to the weaker States, financially, to accept Senator O'Keefe's motion, with some slight modifications. 5086 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD There is no quorum, Mr. President. [Quorum formed.] 5086 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY Senator Pulsford moved the following amendment to the motion submitted by Senator O'Keefe:- ` That all the words after the word "that" in the first resolution be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof— "It is desirable that the present system of dealing with revenue and expenditure, known as the bookkeeping system, should terminate, as permitted by the Constitution, five years after the date when uniform duties were imposed, with, however, due allowance for a limited period to the special circumstances of Western Australia." To the State I have the honour to represent, that motion and amendment are of the greatest importance, and yet there will be no opportunity afford to give these questions the consideration they merit. One can say with all sincerity that the Senate is not being treated fairly in the matter of the time afforded for the discussion of important questions. We have as much right to scan every item of Commonwealth expenditure as have honorable members in another place; but we know what will happen presently will be that we shall be asked to vote several millions of money in an hour or two. 5087 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Why does not the honorable senator enable us to obtain more time? 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY Because our time is being wasted in dealing with a measure which there is reason to believe has not the approval of a majority of the Senate. 5087 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Why does not the honorable senator allow us to take a division? 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY Honorable senators are aware that the first time this matter was discussed in the Senate, I stated that I would be no party to obstructive tactics if I were satisfied that a majority of honorable senators was in favour of it. 5087 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Honorable senators who were, and are, in favour of the survey are now voting against it. 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY Honorable senators who last session voted on the question in one way appear to have been converted by some means or other, and are now prepared to vote the other way. There can be no objection to that, because every man is entitled to change his mind if he considers that he has sufficient reason to do so. In spite of the knowledge which Ministers must have that this sill is obnoxious to the majority of the States— 5087 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Who said so? 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY I say so, and Ministers are aware of it. 5087 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The honorable senator cannot speak on behalf of every State in the Commonwealth. 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY I speak only on behalf of my own state; but I suppose I am free to express my opinion? 5087 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD There is no quorum, Mr. President. [Quorum formed.] 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY We have nine items on the business-paper, including three Bills proposing amendments of the Constitution, and amongst them there is one which it will be admitted is of paramount importance. We are within a week of the closing of the session, and we have another measure thrust forward, and for what reason? Is the passing of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bid of such great importance to the people of Australia that it cannot be put aside to enable measures of far greater importance to be considered on their merits? Assuming that the Government and their supporters are strong enough to carry this Bill, how can they expect that before the close of next week proper consideration can be given to the other important measures now before the Senate? Are we not sitting from 10.30 a.m. until ii p.m. to facilitate the passage of Government business? 5087 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Does the honorable senator think that we shall sit until 11.30 to-night? 5087 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY I should not be surprised if Ave sat until ii or 12 o’clock to-morrow night; but, in the meantime, I direct attention to the fact that there is no quorum present. [Quorum formed.] 5087 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator will take his seat. He will have two minutes in which to continue his remarks after lunch. Sitting suspended from 12.58 to 2 p.m. 5087 2.0 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE I am sorry that such an arrangement of Government business has been brought about by this very peculiar state of affairs. I cannot be accused of having occupied any time during the discussion on the Bill, which is the cause of all this trouble? 5087 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT The honorable senator admits that the Railway Survey Bill is the cause of the trouble? 5087 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE Undoubtedly; and although we are within a few days, I suppose, of the end of the session, and there are a number of very important questions yet to be dealt with, no progress whatever has been made, either yesterday or to-day. The Government has succeeded in carrying the Kalgoorlie to port Augusta Railway Bill much further than in previous sessions, and I think they ought to be content to pause now, and permit the electors of the Commonwealth generally to express an opinion on the measure at the polls. 5088 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Storrie Senator GUTHRIE That might be suggested in regard to every other measure. 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE This Bill is on an entirely different plane. It has been shown that only one vote lies between the defeat or acceptance of the Bill, and, further, that there are three honorable senators who voted in its favour, but who, in their own minds, are opposed to it. 5088 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR How do we know the minds of these honorable senators? 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE In one way or another, those honorable senators have conveyed the impression that they are not in love with the measure, but, owing to a particular combination of circumstances, they have voted in its favour. Of course, every honorable senator is the master of his own vote, for which he is responsible to his constituents only. On the two former occasions when this measure was before us, we were not on the eve of a general electio0n; and the public interest was, perhaps, not so much aroused as it has been in course of this session when, owing to the long and perhaps acrimonious discussion, their alteration has, to a great extent, become focussed on the measure. Western Australian representatives, who, it must be admitted, have made a gallant fight, have the consolation of knowing that better progress has been made with the Bill than they were able to make previously; but I am certain that if the Government insist on carrying it through its final stages, more valuable time will be wasted by those who seem determined to prevent further progress. I am sure the Government would not carry a Bill which they thought was objectionable to the majority of the electors; and I ask the Minister of Defence and the supporters of the Bill generally, whether it would not be better, in the interests of all parties, to come to an arrangement that no further steps shall be taken with this Bill this session. The short remaining time at our disposal could then be devoted to the measures of enormous importance, which are staring us in the face. 5088 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Why not pass the Railway Survey Bill now, and leave the remaining time free for the measures the honorable senator indicates? 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE There are a number of honorable senators who, rightly or wrongly, seemed determined, by a legitimate use of all the forms of the Senate, to prevent this Bill being passed. We might as well be candid, and admit that that is the actual position 5088 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The honorable senator desires that the minority should coerce the majority? 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE I am very doubtful on which side the minority is. 5088 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Let us take a division and see. 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE However important the Bill may be in the opinion of Western Australian senators, it cannot be denied that there are on the notice-papers measures which, in the opinion of the representatives of the other five States, far transcended in importance. Passing over the Tasmanian Cable Rates Bill, which, though important to Tasmania, may be regarded as a comparatively small matter, we come to the Bounties Bill and to the measures for the alteration of the constitution; and even if we cleared the notice-paper of those, there are still other measures of equal importance now before another Chamber. Year after year honorable senators have protested against the presentation of the Appropriation Bill in the last hours of the sessions, and it has been pointed out that there is a promise this year that, at any rate, a few days will be devoted to its consideration. Proper and useful discussion ought not to be curtailed simply because the Government choose to keep back the Appropriation Bill. 5088 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON Does the honorable senator realize that this “stone-walling” of the Railway Survey Bill is further limiting the time which might be devoted to the Appropriation Bill? 5088 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE I do; but I think I have the right, under the circumstances, of occupy a few minutes. Unless some arrangement is come to, I am afraid that a great deal more time may be spent in connextion with that Bill. 5088 2.15 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I wish to remove one or two false impressions which have fastened themselves upon the minds of some honorable senators which regard to my action on this motion. Senator Playford stated that I desired to take the business out of the hands of the Government. I wish to say that my motion was submitted for a specific purpose. Honorable senators have only to refer to its terms to ascertain that purpose. My clear intention was that we should discuss the position of business so that the Senate, as a whole, might give the Government the benefit of its corporate mind. When the Minister of Defence got up, and, in an indignant tone, asked whether I wanted to take the business out of his hands, and said that, if so, some other Government would have to be found, it was so much bounce and bunkum on his part. It has been frequently stated that the Senate cannot make or unmake Ministries. Therefore, the threat of the Minister was absurd. I have never found so much reluctance on the part of this, or any other, Government to go out of office as would seem to be indicated by Senator Playford's remarks. The position which I desired to bring prominently under the notice of the Senate was that we have on our notice-paper at least four Bills involving alterations of the Constitution. In order that they may have any effect whatever, those Bills must be passed two clear months before the date of a general election. It must, therefore, be patent that there is urgency with regard to them. There is no such urgency with regard to any other Bill on the paper. It would not matter whether those measures were passed to-day or on the last day of the session. But it would completely invalidate the Constitution Amendment Bills if they were passed one day later than two clear months before the general election. This day is the 21st September. If those Bills were passed to-day the general election could not be held before the 22nd November. It must, therefore, be a proposition admitting of no contradiction that, unless we are to accept those Bills without discussion, it is not possible to pass them in time for an election to be held at a reasonable date before the end of the year. That is the position to which I object. Those four Bills are of vital importance, from my point of view. One is a Bill which provides that the Government may abrogate the Constitution to the extent of imposing special duties of Customs and Excise, and retain the proceeds for any purpose it thinks fit. I do not intend to allow that Bill to pass without the fullest and freest expression of opinion. Another Bill, introduced by Senator Pearce, the party to which I belong considers to be of the highest consequence. Unless those Bills pass two months before the general election, there is no chance of anything being done with them this year without incurring extraordinary expense. There are other Bills of almost equal importance, with regard to which the same time limit applies. Then there are the Referendum Bill and the Constitution Alteration (States Debts) Bill, the latter of which is a measure of great concern to the States. Inasmuch as the Senate was established to safeguard the interests of the States, it ought not to be expected to pass such a measure at the close of a session without ample discussion. Can we devote to the' measure such consideration if precedence is given to other business about which there is no urgency whatever? It does not matter a straw whether the other Bills are passed today or in the last hours of the session. I have a right to take advantage of the Standing Orders in order to urge upon the Government and the Senate my views as to the state of public business, and I ought not to be subjected to abuse and adverse criticism for doing what I have a perfect right to do, and what I hope I shall always have the courage to do when necessary demands it. Again, we have frequently complained that the Senate has been flouted to some extent by not having an ample opportunity to discuss the Appropriation Bill. What is the position this year? That Bill has yet to come before us. When it comes we shall be asked to do—what? We shall be asked to pass it in the last hours of the session without discussion. We shall be expected to swallow the whole dose without winking an eye. Parliament cannot be prorogued until the Appropriation Bill is passed. The same remark cannot apply to other Bills. Why, then, should precedence be given to them? I trust that the Government will see the force of my argument, and will agree to give precedence to Bills of such urgent public importance as are those I have mentioned. By leave of the Senate, I desire to withdraw the motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. 5089 Papers Senator PLAYFORD laid upon the table the following papers: - Instructions of the Minister of Defence to Captain W. R. Creswell, C.M.G., Director of the Naval Forces, relative to his visit to England to inquire into the latest naval developments. Report of the Director of the Naval Forces on visit to England, 1906. Ordered to be printed. Audit Act—Transfers in connexion with accounts of the financial year 1905-6. 5090 miscellaneous The Clerk having called on the Orders of the Day, 5090 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE What becomes of questions sir? 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The time has gone by for asking questions. Two hours after the meeting of the Senate Orders of the Day must be called on. 5090 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD May I point out the inconvenience? 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I have nothing to do with that. 5090 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Once when I wished to move the adjournment of the Senate I was not able to do so until formal business had been disposed of. 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That may be, but standing order 6o states that after petitions have been presented and notices of questions and motions given, and before the business of the day is proceeded with, a motion may be made for the adjournment of the Senate. That was the motion made by Senator Givens. Under our Standing Orders that motion having been made, and a debate having followed lasting for more than two hours after the meeting of the Senate, we must proceed with Orders of the Day. 5072 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS We shall miss the Monday sitting unless notices of motion are dealt with. 5090 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE What standing order imposes the two hours' limit? 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Standing order 120 says - If all motions excepting motions for adjournment under Standing Order No. 60 shall not have been disposed of two hours after the time fixed for the meeting of the Senate, the debate thereon shall be interrupted unless the Senate otherwise order, and the Orders of the Day shall be taken in rotation— 5090 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE Whose place is it to interrupt the debate? 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT It has been the practice ever since we have been a Senate, and it is the practice of all Houses of Parliament to fix a period when Orders of the Day shall come on. 5090 2.30 K0X South Australia 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Standing order 61 says - Any motion connected with the conduct of the business of the Senate may be moved by a Minister of the Crown at any time without notice. Pursuant to that standing order, I move— That the Standing Orders be suspended to enable questions to be asked, and Government business, notice of motion, to be taken before the Orders of the Day. 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The motion will have to be carried by an absolute majority of the Senate.                                   Question put. The Senate divided.                                                14                                                            11                                                Majority . .  . .   3 AYES                                        NOES                                In division: 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT As there are 14 ayes and 11 noes, and standing order 433 provides that the Standing Orders shall not be suspended, except on motion after notice, unless there is an absolute majority of the Senate voting for it, the motion is not carried.                      The motion is not carried.               5090 Motion 5090 Debate resumed from 20th September (vide page 5014), On motion by Senator CLEMONS— That the President's Ruling—that the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill can be taken without an adjournment of the debate, or without leave to Senator Turley to resume his speech—be dissented from. 5090 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Before the Senate further discusses this matter, I should like to make some short observations. I have had further time for consideration since the debate was adjourned last night, and I am more than ever convinced that my ruling was correct. Let us look at the position. By an order which is called a sessional order, because it lasts through the session, but which otherwise is no different from any other order, it is provided that the time at the disposal of the Senate for the taking of business shall be divided into two parts, one part in which Government business takes precedence of private business, and another part in which private business takes precedence of public business. But we never have provided either that private business may not be carried on in the time set apart for the Government business, or vice versa. In fact, not only in the present session, but in all previous sessions, it has frequently happened that Government business has been transacted in the time in which private business had precedence, and vice versa. I shall give two illustrations of that from the records of the Senate during the last few weeks. On Thursday, 19th July, Government business was taken at 4.15 p.m.; On Thursday, 9th August, Government business was taken at 5.45 p.m. 5091 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN After private business had been dealt with. 5091 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Of course; and that is just what I am coming to. It is all a question of precedence. We have never set apart a time in which private business should be absolutely taken and public 'business should be absolutely taken. We have only set apart times in which private business should take precedence and Government business should take precedence. 5091 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON "Unless otherwise ordered." 5091 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I am not going to complicate the matter with that question, because that is in a sessional order. After all, it only comes to this - that certain public business has been transacted during the time when private business had precedence. Is that a very great matter? No honorable senator objected. It may be answered – and, I dare say, very truly answered—that honorable senators did not know; but every honorable senator was under a Certain obligation to know what the position was, just as much as I was. 5091 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART Why have we a President or officials? 5091 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The position is that public business has been taken in its wrong precedence—I shall not say with the assent of every honorable senator, but without any objection to the action of the Minister. One of the reasons given—I do not say by the mover of the motion, but by an honorable senator--for the contention that the Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill has fallen off the notice-paper was that all the proceedings taken on the Bill during the times when private business had precedence were invalid. I Cannot possibly conceive how s-tch an argument can he sustained. We, and we alone, are the judges of our own procedure, and no authority outside the Senate can question whether it is right or wrong. A case which took place in Queensland—the case of Browne .v Cowley—is reported in the Queensland Law Journal of 1895. Mr. Browne, a member of the Legislative Assembly, sued Mr. Cowley, its Speaker, because he had been excluded under an order of suspension made by the House, and his ground was that it was not properly made under the provisions of the standing order. The case came on before Chief Justice Griffith, who is now Chief Justice of the High Court, and he said— I think that in dealing with this point the court ought to bear in mind the rule as laid down by Blackstone, and quoted by Sir James Stephen, in the case Bradlaugh v. Gossett (12 Q.B.D., p. 278) The whole of the law and custom of Parliament has originated from this one maxim—that whatever matter arises concerning either House of Parliament ought to be examined, discussed, and adjudged in that House to which it relates, and not elsewhere." He goes on to say - But I do not think that any court of justice can review the decision of the Chairman. He is called upon to decide on the spur of the moment, so that the business of the House may proceed in an orderly manner. He is human and liable to err. His judgment is liable to be disturbed by the very discussion—probably heated—that is going on. It may be that if he had the opportunity of some days', or even some hours', reflection he would, come to the conclusion that what is done is not really noise or disturbance within the meaning of the standing order; but if his decision on the question of fact thus necessarily arrived at on the spur of the moment were liable to be reviewed, after a long interval, by a legal tribunal, and the protection of the Speaker or officers, or indeed the members of the House, were to depend on the conclusions that that tribunal arrived at, an intolerable burden would be imposed upon members of the Legislature in the discharge of their duties. 5092 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON His decision was that the Court bad no jurisdiction. 5091 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That is what I am saying—that there is no authority outside Parliament to decide whether the proceedings of Parliament are regular or irregular. That is the whole point. I am referring to this case because it has been argued by some honorable senators that what we have done was illegal. The learned Chief Justice went on to say— I believe this is the first instance in which the ruling of a Speaker, which is subject to appeal to the House itself, has been sought to in submitted to the review of a court of justice. I am not disposed to be the first judge to review a Speaker’s decision on the construction of the standing orders—a function width requires not only the consideration of the printed document, but an acquaintance with the law and practice of Parliament, with reference to which the standing orders themselves are framed. I have quoted these sentences from a decision of the present Chief Justice of the Commonwealth, to show that we need be under no apprehension that any irregularity in our proceedings, so far as the Standing Orders are concerned, will have any effect in invalidating anything we do. The reason given why the President's ruling should be dissented from is that the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill Cannot be taken without an adjournment of the debate, or without leave given to Senator Turley to resume his speech. It will be recollected that about a month ago I stated to the Senate that where the speech of an honorable senator was interrupted, not by an adjournment, but by a suspension of a sitting in pursuance of any standing order, he could continue his speech without any leave being given. After due consideration, I said I thought that that should be agreed, because it was not fair that any one member of the Senate—leave meaning unanimous leave – should he able to prevent an honorable senator from continuing his speech when it was interrupted, for no reason whatever for which the honorable senator making the speech was responsible, but merely by the arrival of the lunch or dinner hour. That ruling was received with cheers from both sides of the Senate. That seems to me to dispose of the second objection to my ruling in this case. As to the first objection that there was no adjournment, why should there be an adjournment? The sitting commenced at 10.30 a.m. on the day in question. Senator Turley was addressing the Senate, and his remarks were cut short at 1 o'clock by the suspension of the sitting for the luncheon hour. The honorable senator continued his remarks at 2.30 p.m., but it was subsequently found that owing to an irregularity he ought not to have continued them at 2.30 p.m., but at 7.45 p.m. In the circumstances, I say that the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill is properly on the notice-paper, and that when it is called on, Senator Turley, being in possession of the Senate, can, if he pleases, continue his remarks on the Bill. I cannot see how it can be contended that an adjournment is required. No adjournment was required at 2.30 p.m. That is certain. We have seen that in our proceedings to-day. We had a debate initiated by Senator Givens, which was continued up to i p.m., and automatically it went on again when we met at 2 o'clock. If that be so, why should it not be resumed automatically if the sitting were suspended until 7.45 p.m. The only difference in this case is that private business intervened. That does not seem to me to affect the matter. The Senate ordered the Bill to be considered on Thursday. The sitting was continued until late at night. During the siting two suspensions took place, and in the interval between them private business was taken. I cannot see that that alters the aspect of the case at all, and I am quite convinced that the ruling which I gave is correct. 5092 2.53 KLZ New South Wales 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Senator Clemons having moved the motion now before the Senate, will not be able to speak to it until he speaks in reply, and I therefore take the opportunity to say a few words on the President's ruling. We all recognise, sir, that the case you have cited of Browne v. Cowley shows that where any doubt has arisen in the minds of honorable senators as to the correctness of a ruling, the proper course is for the Senate to discuss and deal with it, and that we can do that without any apprehension of trouble hereafter in connexion with the Law Courts, if any one were so ill-advised as to wish to appeal to them to interfere in any way. It is unmistakably laid down by the judgment cited that the whole matter is open to the discussion and determination of honorable senators themselves. 5092 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That is laid down by our own Standing Orders 5092 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD That is so; but I alluded to the case which you cited because it appears to me that the decision there given confirms the power of the Senate to deal with the matter. 5093 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I said that before. It is entirely a matter for our own consideration. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD You have pointed out that it has been ruled that where a debate is interrupted by the suspension of a sitting, it is resumed automatically as soon as the Senate re-assembles. We have accepted that ruling, but in this case we are, I think, in a different position, in consequence oi the irregularity committed, inadvertently, no doubt, in contravention of a sessional order. Under the sessional order of the 14th June last, the meeting of the Senate was properly begun at 10.30 am. this morning. The sessional order passed on the 14th June has been complicated by a later resolution of the Senate determining that the Senate should meet at hours which are not prescribed by the original resolution. It has been ruled by you, sir, that the resolution of the 11th September is of no effect, so far as it contravenes the resolution of the 14th June, in respect to the precedence of business, and the question arises whether the resolution of the 11th September is not entirely ultra vires 5093 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That would make no difference in this case, because the whole of the proceedings in question were taken under the resolution of the 14th June. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD Not the proceedings of yesterday. 5093 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Yes; with the exception of what was done immediately after 1.30 p.m. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD You will pardon me, sir. The hour fixed for the meeting of the Senate on Thursdays, by the resolution of the r4th Tune, was 2.30 p.m., whilst the Senate met yesterday at 10.30 a.m., by virtue of what? By virtue of an order superseding the original order. 5093 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT No; the honorable senator has riot looked into the question. There were two orders on the 14th June. One which provides "until otherwise ordered" for the days and hour of meeting, and another which does not say "until otherwise ordered." fixing the precedence of business. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD This is the sessional order that was passed— During the present session be Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of each week, at the hour of half-past 2 o'clock in the afternoon of Wednesday and Thursday, and of half-past o o'clock in the forenoon of Fridays, until otherwise ordered. 5093 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT "Until otherwise ordered." 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD The question is whether that applies to Wednesdays and Thursdays as well as to Fridays. 5093 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD To Fridays only, or the words "until otherwise ordered " would appear at the commencement of the sessional order. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD We know that there was a special object in fixing the hour for the meeting of the Senate on Friday morning, and it was in order that the proceedings might be brought to a close on that day at 1. or half-past 4 p.m. The question arises how far the meeting of the Senate yesterday at 10.30 a.m. was legal, although the sessional order contains the words " unless otherwise ordered." The motion of the 11th September was clearly intended to supersede the sessional order fuming the precedence of business. The matter is one on which I think the fullest light should be thrown, in order that we Tay ascertain how far the ruling given is in accordance with the view of the Senate. 5093 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The President’s ruling on that point has not been disputed. 5093 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD But I must consider the matter from that point of view, and I ask honorable senators to do so, as well as to consider it from the stand-point of the President. If we had no right to go on with the work in the morning, we have not yet had the motion for the third reading of the Bill submitted, but are really in the position in which we were left on the Wednesday evening. I concede at once that if Parliament chooses to say that, notwithstanding any irregularity, the work then done was done properly. it is not possible for any honorable senator to appeal to any Court of law for a decision, because we are our own masters, and we have the right to decide. But, however strong our opinion may be, it is eminently desirable that the question should be definitely settled, so as to prevent confusion or disputes in the future. 5094 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator will see that if we were not legally sitting on the Thursday morning, and the business then done went for naught, then the third reading of the Bill was the first Order of the Day at 7.45 p.m. 5094 2.53 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert John Senator Lt.-Col. GOULD If my view be the correct one, the Mister of Defence will have to again submit the motion for the third reading, and honorable senators who spoke to the Bill yesterday morning will have the right to speak again. We have got ourselves into a very awkward tangle, out of which we ought to find a way; and my remarks are not made with an',' desire to cast any reflection on your ruling. I know, sir, that you have given great consideration to the matter, and your views, as is only proper, carry great weight with honorable senators; but, as I say, this is a matter which should be definitely settled, and I ask honourable senators to consider how far they are entitled, as a matter of justice, to disapprove of the ruling which you ha e given. I am not cavilling at your action, nor have I any desire to place myself in a position of antagonism to your ruling, more especially in view of the ability which you always bring to bear in the performance of your duties. 5094 3.4 K0X South Australia 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD It appears to me that Senator Gould is not very sure of his ground—that he is, at any rate, a little dubious about voting against the ruling of. the President. The position taken up by Senator Gould in regard to the proposed dissent is not the position taken upby Senator Clemons, who submits the motion. Senator Clemons does not object to the ruling which you, sir, gave yesterday in the most positive and emphatic terms, that everything we did in regard to this Bill up to a certain time was perfectly regular and legal, and that decision has not been objected to. Or Standing Orders make no provision for the resumption of a debate which may be stopped by some unusual occurrence, as was the case yesterday. We have no standing order to say whether or not such a debate shalt be resumed in the ordinary way, and I contend that the ruling you gave on that point was the only intelligent and common sense. We met on Thursday morning at half-past io o'clock, and, according to your ruling, that was perfectly right and correct. I moved that the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Fill be read a third time, and the motion was discussed by honorable senators. When the time arrived for the adjournment for lunch at 1 o'clock, Senator Turley was speaking; and when we met again at half-past o'clock the honorable senator resumed, and continued until between 3 and 4’ o’clock. It was then that Senator Neild called attention to an irregularity, and pointed out that Government business was really taking up time that ought to be devoted to private business. The ground on which Senator Neild raised his objection was that the original sessional order in regard to private business had not been properly pealed. I was entirely ignorant of the necessity for seven days' notice, and so forth, which it appears was necessary to enable me to submit a motion changing the time for the consideration of private members' business from the afternoon to the evening That change was made as a matter of convenience, because it enabled me, instead of sandwiching private members' business between two periods of Government business, to take the whole of the latter together. When your attention was called to the matter, you at once ruled that the Government were occupying time which ought to be given to private members' business, and y0u ruled that the latter should be proceeded with. While the discussion on the point of order was proceeding, Senator Turley remained seated, and he did not rise again to resume his speech. The only question which you, sir, had to decide was what had to be the procedure when Ave met after the dinner hour in the evening. There is no standing order providing for such a situation, and in all cases where the Standing Orders fail to meet any particular contingency, the President is asked to give a ruling. The President is put into the position for the purpose of deciding points in which even the Standing Orders cannot help him; and he has to appeal to precedents, and to the practice in other legislative bodies particularly the House of Commons. The President is there for the purpose of advising the Senate as to the common-sense, intelligent way of getting over any difficulty which may arise. Honorable senators look to him for advice and assistance; and there ought to be very strong reasons before honorable senators dissent to any decision given by the President. Unless it can be clearly shown that a decision is not intelligible, or may lead to difficulties. Honorable senators ought to loyally abide by it. In the Parliament of South Australia, even when I had reason to doubt the wisdom of a decision from the Chair, I always acquiesced, and 1 contend that in any deliberative assembly the greatest deference ought to be paid to the determinations of the presiding officer. No decision ought to be called in question unless it can be shown that it is unfair, or will work evil. Or militate against the good conduct of business hereafter; and I defy any honorable senator to say that the decision now under consideration is not eminently fair, or that it will not conduce to the proper order of business, while not damning any honorable senator in any respect. If an interruption of the kind occurs in a debate, the honourable senator who is sneaking at the time is asked to resume when we re-assemble. What else could be done? What absurdity it is to talk about there being any necessity to give fresh notice of motion, or to strike the measure off the notice-paper, and so forth. Evet, if I were the bitterest op ponent of this Bill, I should never conceive it to be my duty to object to a decision given by the President, except for really good and solid reasons. The question referred to by Senator 'Gould has already been decided by you, Mr. President 5095 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD Not yet. 5095 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The President gave his ruling last night, and it was not objected to. 5095 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD The honorable senator is quite wrong. 5095 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I believe I am correct; but whether that ruling was objected or not, the motion now under dicussion raises no objection to it. 5095 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD That may be. 5095 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The ruling given last night, although it may be incidentally referred to on the present occasion, is not one that would be interfered with, even if the motion now under discussion were carried. Under the circumstances, I trust that the Senate will support your ruling, sir, which, in my opinion, is consonant with common sense. 5095 3.15 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD I rise more to ask- a question than to sneak upon the ruling given by you, sir. My point is not as to the desirableness of the proceedings adopted by you in Connexion with Senator Turlev 's continuation of the debate on the Railway Survey Bill, but rather as to the validity of the sessional order of 11th September. I think that you have not given a definite ruling on a point submitted by me yesterday. My, memory is fortified by reading the Hansard proofs of what took place. You intimated that you intended to give a ruling on the point at a quarter to 8 o'clock last night, but you omitted to do so. 5095 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD what is the question? 5095 3.15 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD It relates to the validity of the sessional order of 11th September as a whole. You said in the course of the discussion that it was not necessary to give a ruling on the whole question at that time, but that you would do so at a quarter to 8 o'clock. But at a quarter to 8 o'clock the Clerk called on the Railway Survey Bill, and the ruling was not given. I took no exception to what was done, but I desire to intimate that when a favourable opportunity occurs I shall raise the point again. The point upon which I desire to obtain a ruling is as to the whole of the sessional order made on the 11th September. I can assure you that I can bring forward strong reasons, supported by precedents faken from our Journals of the present session, for contending that the order of the 11th September is wholly invalid; not merely invalid in part. I do not propose to vote for the motion dissenting from your ruling on the point under consideration. I shall vote to uphold the President's ruling—a course which is consonant with my feelings and my desire to maintain the highest possible respect for our President and for the Presidential chair. But I reserve to myself the right, on some future occasion, to raise a point of order on the matter which I have mentioned. 5096 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I quite understand. 5096 3.15 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator NEILD I cannot raise the point now, but I may be able to do so next week, at an hour fixed under the order of the 11th September, but not fixed by the order of 14th June. I reserve my right in that matter; but I propose, with a great deal of pleasure, to vote in support of the ruling that you gave last night. 5096 3.21 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I regret that, not for the first time to-day, I Have to take exception to a remark made by the Minister of Defence. He has made an appeal to the Senate to determine this matter from the point of view of its loyalty to the-Chair, rather than according to its judgment. I take it that that is rather a reflection upon those who may see some reason to cast a vote adverse to the ruling which you, sir, have given. But I venture to say that even those who differ from you fully recognise the obligation which the Minister has referred to of observing loyalty towards the Chair. I do not think that. in your six years' experience as President of the Senate, you will say, speaking with regard to the whole of that time, that there has been any want of loyalty or respect to yourself. Therefore, when the Minister makes that appeal, it would almost suggest either that there was lacking some force in his own contention of which he was aware, or that he assumed that the motion of dissent was submitted from a want of loyalty. I entirely repudiate that suggestion, and intend to give a reason which, I think, suggests that there may be, compatible with common sense, another interpretation than that which you have placed upon the matter submitted to you for decision. The point is this: An irregularity was undoubtedly committed. That is acknowledged by every one. There seems to me to have been two ways by which we could recover ourselves, and get back to the regular track. One was, at the time when the irregularity was detected, to condone everything up to that point, and to assume that—the Senate having taken that course—everything had become regular. The other way by which we could have corrected the irregularity was by reverting to the point at which it commenced. I see no possibility of departing from an irregular track into a regular track, except at one of those two stages—either the, stage at which the irregularity was first committed, or that at which it was detected. It seems to me that you have determined that the irregularity shall be corrected at a point between those two. The irregularity was not detected at 1 o'clock yesterday. It was detected at half-past 3. I contend that if the Senate condoned everything that had happened up to 1 o'clock, it equally condoned everything up to 3 o’clock, at which time the irregularity was detected. If we are going to stand on the fact that the Senate has condoned its irregularity----and I am prepared to accept that, because it seems to be a common-sense point of view - we must assume that it condoned everything up to the point when the irregularity was detected. That was 3 o'clock. Now, there is a sessional order, which was passed in a regular way, and which says that the Senate shall meet at 2.30 p.m. By an irregular motion we determined to meet at 10.30 in the morning. I am prepared to agree with you that, although we met on Wednesday morning contrary to the only sessional order which has full force and effect, the Senate has condoned that irregularity by the fact that it went on with it. The Senate itself must share the responsibility for whatever error was subsequently discovered. But having condoned the Wednesday morning sitting, it equally condoned the proceedings which took place from 2.30 to 3.30 yesterday. In fact, it condoned everything up to the point- when the error was detected- If that be so, it seems to me that the proper course would have been for the Minister to move the adjournment of the debate. 5096 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT he could not. Because Senator Turley was in possession of the Chair. 5096 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN You yourself suggested that Senator Turley should ask leave to continue his remarks at a subsequent period. That, I think, was the proper course to take, on the assumption that the Senate had condoned what had previously taken place. My point is that either the Senate condoned the whole of the previous proceedings or none of them. But your ruling assumes that it only condoned them up to 1 o'clock yesterday. What ought to have been done in order to break back to the regular track was for the minister to put such a motion before the Senate as would have enabled us to get back to the regular track. 5097 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That was one way out of the difficulty. But Senator Turley would not agree to that method, and I took another. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD That was the sugestion of Senator Symon 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The honorable senator is not always so willing to act upon a suggestion by Senator Symon. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I did not act upon it. I told the President that I thought the proper course for him to take was to call on private business at once. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I cannot reconcile the position in which we find ourselves. If the irregularity was condoned to 1 o'clock, it was condoned up to 3 o'clock. If it was condoned un to 3 o'clock. When Senator Turley was speaking to the question of the third reading, it follows that as he failed to ask permission to continue his remarks— 5097 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That was not necessary, and it was not necessary at 1 o'clock. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN If we assume, sir, that you condoned the irregularity up to o'clock, why is it that it has not been condoned up to 3 o'clock? Either it was condoned from the time it began until it was detected, or it was not. There are two points at which I think it could be corrected. Either we could go back to the moment when it began, or we could go right down to the moment when it was detected, Common sense suggests that we should go down to the time when it was detected, and that was not 1 o'clock, but 3 o'clock. Therefore, either everything done up to 3 o'clock was condoned by the Senate, or nothing was condoned. You, sir, cannot arbitrarily divide the time, and say that the Senate condoned the irregularity up to one point of time, but not for the whole of the period. 5097 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT What difference does it make? Senator Turley is still in possession of the Chair in reference to the Bill 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN It does make a difference of substance, if the Senate condoned the irregularity up to 3 o'clock, and the third reading of the Bill was then regularly before the Chair, then a motion ought to have been submitted for. the purpose of carrying the Bill properly forward, but failing that the whole, business ought to have dropped off the notice-paper. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD That is all the honorable senator wants. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN It is equally open to me to retort that the Minister is merely taking the opposite view, because it would facilitate the transaction of his business. 5097 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY Had the point of order been raised at 11 o'clock, what would have been the position? 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The position would have been exactly the same as it was at 3 o’clock. It might have been said that we had condoned all the irregularity up to Wednesday night, but not for Thursday. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD The proceedings on Thursday from half past 10 to 1 o'clock were perfectly regular. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN No. 5097 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That point is not raised now. I understand that Senator Neild intends to raise it on some other occasion. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN However, it is not necessary for the purpose of my argument. We can get back to the regular course by one of two ways. Either we can go back to the point at which we broke away from the regular course, or we can say that we have condoned everything up to the point when the error was detected. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Hear. Hear. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN That was at 3 o'clock. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD When it was detected Senator Turley had no right to ask leave to continue his remarks. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The Minister assents to my proposition that we have condoned every irregularity up to 3 o'clock 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I think so. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN But the President's ruling is to the effect that we have only condoned the irregularity up to 1 o'clock 5097 K0X 0 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD No. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The President has based his remarks on that view of the case. because he said that at 1 o'clock a natural suspension of the sitting took place. 5097 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I cannot see the slightest difference in the result, whether the irregularity was condoned up to 1 o'clock. or up to the time when attention was called to it. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN There is an ordinary suspension of the sitting at 1 o'clock. In view of that fact, we have for one day do, and which has been applied to other days, and upon the resumption of the sitting, the business is proceeded with just as if no suspension had taken place. But no suspension at 3 o'clock, such as the suspension for lunch, is provided for. There is a sessional order which prescribes when the Senate shall suspend its business, but at 3 o’clock yesterday the position was different. Seeing that the cutting off of the business took place when the Senate was sitting, we must look to other orders to know what ought to be done. What happens when it is proposed to terminate he discussion on a measure? A motion is submitted, and that is what ought to have been done yesterday. The occurrence at 3 o'clock yesterday was not a suspension in the sense of a lunch suspension; but it was a termination of the discussion on the Bill. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Really that is not the point at issue at all. The question is that my ruling—that the Order of the Day for the third reading of a Bill was still on the notice-paper—be dissented from. 5098 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons No. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT What I ruled was that the Clerk was in order in calling on that Order of the Day. 5097 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD And the President, if he had not been interrupted, would have called on Senator Turley to continue his remarks. 5097 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN According to my copy of the notice-paper, the motion reads as follows:- That the President's ruling—that the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill can be taken without an adjournment of the debate, or without leave to Senator Turley to resume his speech—be dissented from. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Those are Senator Clemons' reasons for dissenting from the ruling. 5098 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I am supporting those reasons, and trying to show that at 3 o'clock yesterday, when the point of order was taken— 5098 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY The Bill had really dropped. 5098 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN The Bill had dropped, because there was a failure on the part of someone to move that the debate be adjourned, and that, I take it, is the point which Senator Clemons has raised. 5098 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons Absolutely. 5098 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN If we refuse to accept that view, we cannot logically say that we condoned every irregularity up to 1 o'clock. 5098 3.40 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I do not pretend to have any close or exact knowledge of the Standing Orders, because I usually trust to the President, the Chairman of Committees, and the officials to keep the Senate straight in that regard. It appears to me that, somehow or other, we have got into a remarkable tangle. So far, we have not discovered any intelligible means of extricating ourselves from the difficulty. I admit at once that there is no precedent for a case of this kind. I suppose that we might search the history of Parliaments all over the world and fail to find an exact parallel to the position here. I listened very carefully to the remarks of Senator Millen and I think that he put the case very clearly and very fairly. He pointed out that we had condoned either everything up to 3 o'clock, or nothing. Now the Government, and you, sir, must accept one position or the other. If we condoned nothing, then the morning sitting on Wednesday was irregular. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Why? 5098 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART Because the sessional order empowering the Senate to sit at 10.30 a.m., instead of at 2.30 p.m., was irregular. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That sessional order contains the words "unless otherwise ordered." 5098 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART It was not otherwise ordered in proper form. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That is a different point from the one at issue, and it arises under a different sessional order. 5098 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART If the irregularity has been condoned by the Senate, it has been condoned up to the moment of discovery, and that is up to 3 p.m. yesterday. By your decision, sir, you have turned the hand clock back to 1, and have acted as if the irregularity had not proceeded beyond that hour. 5098 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I do not think so. 5098 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART The irregularity went on until 3 o'clock, when it was discovered that, instead of public business, private business ought to have been before the Senate. Senator Turley, who was speaking, was asked by you to resume his seat, and he did so. A little while afterwards he was asked by you whether he would request the permission of the Senate to resume his speech at a later hour of the day. Clearly you had the idea in your mind that it was necessary. in the circumstances, if the debate was to be continued, and the Bill was not to drop off the notice-paper, that he should make that request. The very fact that you requested Senator Turley to ask leave to resume his speech at a later hour of the day demonstrates to me— 5099 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I never said anything about a later hour of the day. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I do not think that you will deny that you asked Senator Turley to request permission to resume his speech. 5099 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT No; that is right. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART then you must have bad it in your mind at that time that it was absolutly necessary for Senator Turley to do so. 5099 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I think the honorable senator has no right to impute to me what is in my mind when he does not know. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART I think, if you will excuse me, that I did not say that what I have just repeated was in your mind, but that it appeared to me from the fact that you asked Senator Turley to do so, that it was in your mind that the business could not proceed unless he did. 5099 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY that was to carry on in compliance with the Standing Orders. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART That was to carry an the discussion in the ordinary way. When the discussion upon a measure is interrupted in the ordinary course, that is the procedure usually followed. 5099 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY In the event of a count out, for instance, the measure under discussion at the time goes off the paper. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART Suppose any measure is being debated, and an arrangement is come to that some other question should be brought before the Senate, and the first dropped, for the time being, the adjournment of the debate is moved, or the honorable senator speaking asks leave to continue his remarks on a future occasion. 5099 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY And the Senate makes an order as to when that business is to be resumed. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART That is so. Now I come to 3 o'clock of yesterday afternoon. It was then discovered that the whole business was irregular, and Senator Turley sat down in consequence of your request. 5099 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY No; on a point of order being raised. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART The honorable senator did not ask leave to continue his speech on a future occasion, and no member of the Senate moved the adjournment of the debate. 5099 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD No member of the Senate could do so. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART In the circumstances, so far as I am able to discover, the measure drop pad off the business paper. That is certainly what would happen in the ordinary course. 5099 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD No. 5099 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles Senator STEWART The President very conveniently obviates all this difficulty by wining out completely what occurred between 2.3o p.m. and 3 p.m. yesterday. He goes back to 1 p.m. and says that the debate was interrupted then. But the debate was not interrupted then. It was not interrupted until 3 p.m. by the discovery that the whole proceedings were irregular. The Senate immediately condoned what had taken place previously. Seeing that we were off the track, we decided to put ourselves on the track again, and at 3 p.m. we did so. If the discovery had been made at 1 p.m., prior to the adjournment for lunch, it would not have been necessary for Senator Turley to ask leave to resume his speech, or for anyone to move the adjournment of the debate. The honorable senator could have continued his speech in the ordinary course immediately after private members' business had been disposed of. But there was no discovery until 3 p.m., and that being the case, I contend that it was then absolutely, necessary for Senator Turley to obtain Leave to resume his speech, or for someone to move the adjournment of the debate in the ordinary way. That was not done, and I therefore submit, with all deference to you, sir, that the Bill dropped off the business paper, and must be restored in the ordinary way. To obviate the difficulty, it is not sufficient to say that the discovery took place at 1 p.m. It did not take place at that hour. The ordinary course of business was pursued up to 3 p.m. That was the moment of discovery that the proceedings had been irregular. The discussion of the Bill was interrupted then, and if it was, provision should have been made in the ordinary way for its continuance. That provision was not made, and I therefore submit again with all deference that the Bill dropped off the business-paper. 5100 3.51 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons It would be courteous to the Senate and to you, sir, that I should say something in reply. Apart from my desire to comply with that duty of courtesy, my chief object in rising is io make a brief endeavour to strip from the arguments which have been used all that I think was irrelevant. If I might do so with respect, I would say first, that the case of Browne v. Cowley, which you have cited, has no application to the question before the Senate. 5100 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Very likely, but I cited the case because the point was raised by Senator Gould that the whole proceedings of yesterday morning had been invalidated. 5100 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I am glad that you recognise that I offered that remark with no disrespect to you. I come to what I consider to be the salient points connected with this matter. The usual suspension of the sitting of the Senate between x and 2 P.M. has nothing to do with the case. It was in accordance with our sessional orders, which give you power to suspend the sitting. The difficulty first arose when Senator Neild took his point of order that the whole debate on the third reading of the Bill had not been in order. If it is necessary for me to amplify that, let me say that there is no sessional order empowering the President to suspend a debate except at certain specified times, as at 1 p.m. and 6.0 p.m., when sittings of the Senate are suspended in strict conformity with orders which are sessional, but which have the same authority as Standing Orders. In my endeavour to strip away what is irrelevant to the question, let me say that the suspension of the sitting yesterday at 1 p.m. could have no relevance to it. Let me put the matter, if I can, in a nutshell. Senator Turley was speaking on the third reading of the Bill, when, for reasons which it is not necessary that I should enlarge upon, he was compelled to resume his seat, and to cease debating the motion. We discovered, in consequence of your ruling, that the debate could no longer be continued. Nothing happened as a matter of fact except that the debate was interrupted and stopped. The next proceeding was to call on other business, which was subsequently proceeded with. Then at 7.45 p.m. the point arose as to what business could be put before the Senate. You, sir, then asked the Clerk to call on the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill, and the point is whether in conformity with the Standing Orders it was possible for that order to be called on. In ordinary circumstances you will recognise that it would be possible, if, for instance, the debate had been adjourned and on motion the resumption of the debate had been made an order for 7.45 p.m. 5100 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Does the honorable senator not notice that when the point of order was taken, and the President ruled that we had no right to go on with other than private business, we could not by a motion for. the resumption of the debate have taken up Government business? 5100 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons If Senator Playford seriously submits that argument, he weakens the whole case on the other side. I am willing to accept the argument and to follow it out to its proper conclusion, but I wish now to put the matter in as small a compass as possible. If the debate had been adjourned, and a time set down for its resumption, it could at that time have been continued. As we know, that was not done, and no one will dispute the facts on that point. It was not adjourned, and no time was fixed for its resumption. Another way in conformity with our Standing Orders for securing the continuance of a debate that has been stopped is for the honorable senator who is speaking to obtain leave to resume his speech when the business is next called on. That leave to resume a speech implies that the debate will be carried on at some future time. My point is that neither of those two methods for the continuance of the debate were adopted. I have been unable to discover any other method which could have been adopted. I should have been glad if in the whole of the argument, or in your ruling, there had been any indication of any other method whereby the debate in question could have been resumed in conformity with the Standing Orders. I have to remind you, sir. that you have yourself stated that there is no standing order that supplies the deficiency. You said, "I admit there is no standing order that enables us to do it." What was the position then? I admit that it was one of great difficulty for yourself and for all of us. I think you recognise that we had to depart from our Standing Orders to get out of the difficulty. I am going to suggest that there was a perfectly easy way in which we could have got out of that difficulty, as we have got out of similar difficulties. When, under the Standing Orders, we cannot do something which we think desirable, we ask leave of the Senate. There is nothing more common in the procedure of the Senate than for leave to be given in order that something may be done which we all recognise could not he done tinder the Standing Orders without that leave. Such leave was not given in this instance. I wish to emphasize the point raised by Senator Stewart and other honorable senators. You will pardon me, sir, if I attempt finally to find for you some good reason for what you have said. It is a fact that you inquired of Senator Turley if he asked leave to resume the debate. You must not, and I am sure you would not, expect any honorable senator to believe that you asked that question at random, or without some good reason. The reason is obvious to all if us. If leave had been given to Senator Turley to resume the debate, I admit at once that the position would have been different. It was not given. I must emphasize your particular request to Senator Turley to ask for that leave, because it indicated a desire, and a very proper desire, in your mind at the time to put the proceedings in ‘order. Senator Turley refused to ask for leave, and I have not the slightest doubt that it was because he felt that if he were to ask for leave to continue a speech which, according to our Standing Orders, had never been begun, he would put himself in a false position. This clearly emphasizes the fact that something was done which ought not to have been done. 5101 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD That is plain enough. We should have taken private business when we took Government business. 5101 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons That is not the point. The point is that leave should have been obtained for Senator Turley to resume his speech. That course has been adopted on dozens of similar occasions. 5101 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT There never has been a similar occasion. 5101 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I withdraw the word "similar," but on dozens of occasions when we have been confronted with the fact that we could not do something under the Standing Orders which we wished to do, leave of the Senate has been asked and granted. You will not ask me to give instances of that kind. I suggest that that would have been a proper remedy to have applied to our difficulties, but it was not applied. For the reasons I have given, I am still of opinion that if the debate on the third reading of the Bill is now resumed it will not be resumed in accordance with the standing order.                                   Question put. The Senate divided.                                                11                                                            12                                                Majority . .  . .   1 AYES                                        NOES                                                     Question is resolved in the negative.               5101 Debate resumed from 20th September (vide page 4982), on motion by Senator PLAYFORD- - That the Bill be now read a third time. 5101 4.5 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I regret that there should have been so long an interruption. 5101 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Do not make a farce of it! 5101 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY I have a perfect right to express my regret that my speech has been interrupted for so long a time. I have here a number of Hansard proofs, delivered to me this morning, and although, according to the decision of the Senate, I did not speak after 1 o'clock yesterday, I find I am credited with having said a great deal after that hour. 5101 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN In order to make those remarks regular, they ought to be repeated. 5101 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY When I showed these proofs to one honorable senator, he said that he intended to see whether he could not have the remarks eliminated from the Hansard report. That, however, would not be fair to me, and yet— 5101 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Take them as read. 5102 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY A number of honorable senators are prepared to take anything as read, so long as it will assist the passage of measures in which they take a great interest. However, when I was interrupted yesterday by the point of order, I was dealing with the finances of Queensland as disclosed in the State Treasurer's tables laid before the Parliament of that State. I had shown that the railways of Western Australia were returning a considerable profit, after paying of working expenses, interest, and other charges, and was quoting figures to prove that, on the contrary, the Queensland people each year had to contribute large sums out of the Consolidated Revenue in order to meet the deficiency in the railway finances. In the year ending 30th June, 1901-2, the interest on expenditure in connexion with the railways of Queensland amounted to £837,205, and the net income, after paying working expenses, interest, and so forth, to £324,077, leaving a deficiency to be made up Out of the Consolidated Revenue of £513,128; in 1902-3 the interest was £859,986, and the net income £382,532, leaving a deficiency of £477,454; in 1903-4 the interest was £873,006, and the net income £485,009, leaving a deficiency Of £387,997; in 1904-5 the interest was £876,568, and the net income £59 ,670, leaving a deficiency of £281,897; in 1905-6 the interest was £81,414, and the net income £671,524, leaving a deficiency Of £209,890. The annual increase in the interest bill will be observed. These deficiencies are altogether apart from depreciation; and incidental to the raising of new loans, there has been a great deal of expenditure, a proportion of which should properly be debited to the railways. I wonder 'whether honorable senators who are supporting the Bill have ever realized how the Queensland Government have to dip into the pockets of the taxpayers—not only those who use the railways, but the taxpayers generally—in order to maintain the railway system. In addition, we have now to find the necessary money for railway extension by adding to the burdens of the taxpayers, with the object of developing our own territory, and the Consolidated Revenue has to be resorted to continually for the purpose of maintaining in a state of efficiency the railway communication between Sydney and Brisbane. It is not a fair thing that those people should have to put their hands further into their pockets to pay for the construction of railways for the wealthy State of Western Australia. We ask that they shall develop their own territory, as we have developed ours. The opinion has been expressed by competent persons who have seen the country which it is proposed shall be traversed by this railway, that the expenditure of the money would not be wise. It seems to me that we should be flying in the face of Providence and acting against the best interests of all the States if we were to consent to throw money away on the project. 5102 4.24 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE My objections to this measure may be divided under three heads. The first is that the Commonwealth has no: a Railway Department to manage the line, if it be constructed it will inevitably mean the creation of a new Commonwealth Department; and it is -worthy of consideration whether we ought to undertake work in connexion with railways until we establish a thorough railway policy of our own. That would not be a reasonable thing to do unless the whole of the railways of the States were handed over to the Federal Government. Another objection to the project is suggested to me by the fact that I represent a State which is seriously hampered because it has not sufficient money at its command to enter upon a policy of railway construction for the benefit of its own people. There are portions of Tasmania where the land is rich, and the settlers are of the best kind, but the people suffer intense hardships from the lack of railways and roads. The State cannot afford to construct railways, although in many parts they are urgently needed. 5102 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I beg, sir, to draw your attention to the state of the Senate. [Quorum formed.] 5102 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE It was simply because the second reading of the Bill was so unexpectedly carried that many honorable senators feel themselves quite justified in opposing its third reading. In many portions of Tasmania, a railway is required, but the Minister of Railways has told the House of Assinb1y that during the next year the Government do not propose to spend any money upon railway construction. Although it is generally recognised by a majority in the Tasmanian Parliament that in the interests of the State the construction of certain railways is necessary, still, they cannot afford to provide railway communication, and thus enable very good land in remote districts to be brought under cultivation. In those circumstances, is it surprising that the residents of those districts regard with great disfavour a proposal to expend £20,000 of Commonwealth money in linking up two States who would derive the main benefit from the construction of the railway? No one can really blame the taxpayers of Tasmania for condemning the construction of the railway, especially as it would come under the head of a new work, and, therefore, would be charged on a per capita basis. It is very unfair, I think, that the proposed expenditure of £20,000 should be incurred while the present system of distributing the revenue is maintained. If the representatives of Western Australia could show me that, in the interests of the Commonwealth, a defence work or a post-office was necessary for the proper maintenance and continuance of the transferred Departments, I should offer no objection, because it has been laid down by constitutional authorities that the expenditure on all new works, even in connexion with transferred Departments, must be distributed on a. per capita basis. There are two classes of new works, those which may be held to be necessary, such as defence works, and those which by the greatest stretch of imagination cannot be held to he necessary, and the proposals now before the Senate come within the latter category. It is unfair and un-Federal to the taxpayers of the State I represent to ask them to contribute one penny towards the cost of this survey when we know that later on the supporters of the scheme will claim that the Commonwealth is committed to the construction of the line. I have entered my final protest against the proposal, because I have considered it my duty to do so; and I trust, even at this late stage, that the measure will not be allowed to pass. 5103 4.47 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE If we were not aware of what occurs beyond the four walls of the Chamber, I might very well ask the object of the weary addresses to which we have been treated. After the prolonged debate on the preceding stages of the measure, we might have expected that there would be a very short debate on the third reading. We have been told that the speeches made on the later stages of the Bill are in the nature of protests, but as protests they come altogether too late. They would be worthy of some consideration if they had been made six or seven years ago, at the time when the promises were made and published throughout the Commonwealth that if Western Australia came into the Federation the transcontinental railway would be constructed. I challenge any opponent of this great national scheme to point to any protests that were seriously made and entertained at the time the promises were made. The people of Western Australia were led to believe that with Federation nothing would be surer, and few things earlier of accomplishment, than the transcontinental railway, and they were warned in solemn phrases that if they were foolish enough to stand out of the Federation, and did not weigh well the advantage of entering it, nothing would be more certain than that they would lose the opportunity of having this railway constructed at an early date. It may well be believed that those of us who favoured Federation in Western Australia took care that as much publicity as possible should be given to the promises of men of standing in the Federal movement. The present Prime Minister was one of the Colonial delegates to the old country to watch the passage of the Constitution Act through the Imperial Parliament, and on his return he publicly stated, quite apart from the concession of the special Tariff, that he was able to say, from private conversations with other members of the Convention, that, if a request had been made by Western Australian delegates that provision should be made in black and white in the Constitution for the construction of the railway, it would have been complied with by the Convention. Mr. Kingston, another of the delegates to England, was pledged up to the hilt to this railway scheme. He gave such clear and explicit promises on this question that there could be no doubt about them; and that was known all over Australia. The protests, of which we have heard so much during the last week or two, should have been entered when men of standing like Mr. Deakin and Mr. Kingston were making these promises. But never a word was uttered against them. I have taken the trouble to inquire if in any public utterance any of the men who are prominent in the Federal Parliament to-day ever raised any objection to the promises made by leading Federalists at that time, and I cannot find a single word. 5104 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON The honorable senator will hear more about it before he is much older. 5104 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I dare say we shall’ but I should have preferred, in the interests of honest dealing, and in order that the people of Western Australia might not have been deceived and cajoled into entering the Federation under false pretences – 5104 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON I rise to a point of order. The honorable senator says that the State of Western Australia has been deceived and cajoled into entering the Federation under false pretences. 5104 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT that is not a point of order; although the remark may have been an improper one. 5104 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON Senator de Largie must know that it is grossly innacurate. 5104 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I think the honorable senator must be fishing for something which will enable him to find fault with what I say. What I said was that I thought the protests we now bear should have been uttered years ago, when the promises were made, in order that the people of Western Australia might have been in no way deceived, and might have known exactly the conditions of which they would enter the Federation, and whether there would be any opposition to the scheme we are now discussing. I should have expected Senator Dobson to then raise his voice in protest against it – I know that when the promises I have mentioned were replaced at Albany by Mr. Deakin, Mr. Henry, a prominent Tasmanian who was present, hear-heard every statement of the Prime Minister; feeling in Tasmania. The protest of Senator Dobson, and those who think with him, are six years too late, and are of such a character as to entitle them to no weight. Had the Western Australian people had the slightest suspicion that there was the remotest probability of any of the states opposing the construction of transcontinental line, they would have remained outside of Federation. At that time Western Australia was in such a position that in a sense it could have compelled the other states to consent to the construction of the railway as a condition of Federation. What sort of commonwealth would this have been if Western Australia, representing one-third of the Continent, and remained outside the Union? Western Australia at that time was just beginning its national life and with its vast underdeveloped resources, might have looked forward with every hope too becoming a wealthy and self-contained country. The great deposits of gold had just been tapped; and it would have been possible to apply protectionists principles and encourage industries to the level of those conducted in the same cast. Today, of course, Western Australia is in a very different positional and, with border protection impossible, cannot, in view of the higher rates of wages there prevailing, hope to compete with the old-established industries in the eastern States. The protest of Senator Dobson and his friends are not only too late, but most unfair to a state which was absolutely coaxed into the federation. It is unjust for the eastern States to now turn around and say “were we made those promises when you were free and independent and could not act as you pleased. In our own best interests, but now that you are in the snare, we will exercise what power we have to render those promises abortive.” Let me say, how3ever, that Western Australia is not such a helpless position as some honorable senators may think. For some time past, the debate has been going on in the Western Australian Parliament; and those who are now opposing this Bill could not, if the tried to do the session movement in Western Australia. 5104 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David John Senator O'KEEFE Does the honorable senator think that the Western Australian people would secede on this one question? 5104 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I am not prepared to answer for Western Australia; I speak for myself. I am merely now, when a grievous wrong is likely to be perpetrated, pointing out the danger of the step which senator O’Keefe, and those who think with him, are about to take. I thought it only right to make these observations in order that the true position may be known to those who are about to vote against the third reading of the Bill, and who, by doing so, are evading and repudiating the solemn promise made to Western Australian prior to Federation. 5104 5.14 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART The proposal that the Commonwealth should enter on a policy of railway construction is so important that it ought not to be hastily adopted. The Constitution, no doubt, gives the Commonwealth power, within certain limitations, to enter upon a policy of that character, but I do not think that the people of Australia ever contemplated that the business of railway construction and owning would be undertaken by the Commonwealth without very serious consideration. Before setting forth on such an enterprise, it might be desirable to take a referendum of the people of Australia, to find out whether they are willing to invest their money in a commercial undertaking of the kind—whether they are inclined to so expand the functions of the Commonwealth Government. No attempt has been made to ascertain the opinion of the people on the question, and I consider it to be my duty, as one of the guardians appointed to look after the rights and interests of Queensland in this Senate, to do all I can to obstruct this policy until we have the direct sanction of the people. As has been pointed out, the Constitution is very clear with regard to railway construction and acquisition. We can neither acquire railways already constructed nor build railways without the consent of the State affected. That consent has not been given by South Australia in this case—a fact which is of sufficient importance to warrant me in voting against the third reading of the Bill. When South Australia has been requested to give her consent, she has evaded the question, or has absolutely refused. Under these circumstances, I really do not see how even the representatives of South Australia can conscientiously vote for the Bill. 5105 KVD 1 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY I draw attention to the absence of a quorum. [Quorum formed.] 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART Of course, I am not the keeper of the political consciences of the honorable senators to whom I have referred, but, still, the fact remains that while they are willing that the Commonwealth shall spend £20,000 or any other um which may be necessary for this survey, a portion of the money being expended in their territory, there is not the slightest doubt that their State will not agree to the railway being constructed, even after the surrey is made. 5105 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Storrie Senator GUTHRIE That is mere assumption. 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART Of course, I have no direct evidence, but there is a quantity of circumstantial evidence which points directly to the fact I have indicated. 5105 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON What evidence? 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART The utterances of South Australian public men, and the attitude of the representatives of that State, both in the Senate and in another place. 5105 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON Who are they? 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART We have heard the leader of the Senate, who is a South Australian, say deliberately on the floor of this Chamber that he himself was opposed to the building of the railway, and did not think that South Australia would ever consent to it. 5105 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I never said any such thing. It is not true. 5105 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator must not say that. He must withdraw that statement. 5105 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I only alluded to what Senator Stewart said about me. I will withdraw it if it is necessary to do so, but that will not take away the effect of my denial. 5105 10000 0 0 President, The The PRESIDENT That is not a, proper way to withdraw a statement. The honorable senator asserted that Senator Stewart had made a statement that was untrue. I call upon him to withdraw it. 5105 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I withdraw it, sir, but, nevertheless, the honorable senator's statement was incorrect. 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART I am extremely sorry if I have misrepresented Senator P!ayford, and apologize to him; but I distinctly remember him saying something which led me to the conclusion that I have indicated. However, I need not labour the point. We know perfectly well that the South Australian public is opposed to the building of the line, and the South Australian Government dare not even ask its Parliament for permission. 5105 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR I doubt that statement very much. 5105 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART I ask Senator McGregor why a Bill has not been passed to authorize the survey The various Premiers of South Australia have always known that such permission was necessary. They have been asked on several occasions by Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth for the consent of their State. They have been asked by Sir Edmund Barton, by Mr. Alfred Deakin, and by Mr. Watson. 5105 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR And they always gave it. 5106 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART On each occasion they have evaded giving the consent required. I am driven to the conclusion that, while the Premiers of South Australia may have been willing to give an unofficial sanction to the survey, they were so much afraid of hostile public opinion that they dare not ask their Parliament to give its consent. 5106 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher George Senator HENDERSON If the honorable senator thought that he would not say another word. 5106 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART I am sorry to say that I do think it. 5106 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON The Premier of South Australia made a declaration in consequence of an amendment carried last year at the instance of Senator Givens. 5106 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART Declarations are mere things of air. 5106 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON From a labour Premier? 5106 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART I do not care whether they come from a labour Premier, a capitalistic Premier, or any other Premier. Such a declaration is of no value to me, unless the Premier is prepared to embody it in an Act of Parliament. 5106 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Vote for this, and it will be in an Act of Parliament. 5106 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Charles The STEWART Very well, I shall let the honorable senator have an opportunity to vote for the third reading of the Bill. I intend to vote against it.                                   Question—That the Bill be now read a third time—put. The Senate divided.                                                13                                                            13                                               10                                                Majority . .  . .   0 AYES                                        NOES                                        PAIRS                                In division: 5106 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I challenge the vote of Senator Fraser. He is paired with Senator Symon. 5106 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator FRASER No, I am not paired. 5106 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Joseph Henry Lewis Senator TURLEY Senator Symon has a pair. 5106 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I challenge the vote of Senator Fraser. He is paired with Senator Symon. 5106 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order!                      Question so resolved in the negative.               5106 Motion Motion (by Senator PLAYFOED) agreed to— That Government business, Orders of the Day Nos. 2 to 9, be Orders of the Day for the next day of sitting. 5106 Motion 5106 5106 5.35 K0X South Australia 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I move- That, unless otherwise ordered, in addition to the days of meeting set forth in sessional orders of the 14th June and the 17th August, Monday of each week be a meeting day of the Senate during the remainder of the present session, the hour of meeting to be 3 p.m., and that on such day Government business take precedence of all other business on the notice-paper, except questions and formal motions, and that, unless otherwise ordered, the time of meeting of the Senate on Tuesdays be 110.30 a.m., and that on such day Government business take precedence of all other business on the notice-paper except questions and formal motions. 5106 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD According to standing order 120, the motion cannot be moved. 5106 5.35 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD Why not? 5106 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Because the Orders of the Day have been called on, and those have to take precedence. Although the honorable senator has moved the Orders of the Day off the notice-paper, that will not enable him to bring on the notices of motion. 5106 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT It has been done over and over again. It is only a question of precedence. 5106 5.35 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD It has been done constantly. I ask honorable senators especially those who have been lecturing me for not getting on with business, and providing sufficient time, to give another sitting day to the Government, and thus provide themselves with more time in which to discuss exceedingly important measures. 5106 JVC 0 0 DOBSON Henry Senator DOBSON But when is the session going to end? 5107 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I cannot tell the honorable senator. 5107 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I rise to a point of order. I take it, sir, that under standing order 127 this is distinctly a motion of a character which requires seven days' notice to be given. It is provided by sessional order of 14th June— That the days of meeting of the Senate during the present session be Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of each week— It was distinctly provided that for the whole of the session there were to be three meeting days, and, necessarily, honorable senators made their business arrangements in order to be free to attend on those days 5107 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD We altered that sessional order so as to include Tuesday. 5107 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD The Minister will find that I have not overlooked that point. On the 14th June the Senate, after appointing three sitting days during the present session, prescribed how those days were to be used. Perhaps I had better read the session order— That the days of meeting of the Senate during the present session be Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of each week, at the hour of half-past two o'clock in the afternoon of Wednesday and Thursday, and at the hour of half-past ten o'clock in the forenoon of Friday, unless otherwise ordered. Clearly the words "unless otherwise ordered" referred to the hours of meeting. 5107 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That is the point. 5107 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD With a little regard for, and I hope a little knowledge of the construction of the English language and rules of punctuation, I submit that the words "unless otherwise ordered" have peculiar applicability to the Friday sitting, and to that only. If those words were intended to govern the whole paragraph, I submit that they would have been used at the commencement, and not at the end. All that is aimed at in the sessional order is to fix the days of sitting and the hours of meeting, and I submit that it is scarcely possible to say that the words "unless otherwise ordered" apply to the first part of the sentence. I would point out that the next sessional order, No. 13, is a mere elaboration of the previous one. It relates to the hours and the disposal of business, and as you, sir, said yesterday, the words "unless otherwise ordered" do not appear therein. On the 17th August—and I take it that my objection to the present motion really applies to what was done on that date—an additional sitting day was appointed, and it is so described in the resolution. The present motion sets out Monday as an additional day of sitting. Clearly, these additional days of sitting cannot be covered by the mere phrase "unless otherwise ordered," which follows upon the hours of sitting. If you, sir, were to take that view, it would be quite futile for us to fix the days of sitting, because the Minister could then submit a motion when honorable senators were scattered over the Commonwealth. If by simply giving one day's notice additional sitting days could be taken, the business of the Senate would be carried on in the ignorance of those who were away. Seeing that many honorable senators are not resident in Melbourne, but that their homes are scattered about the Commonwealth, I take it that the object of the seven days' notice provided for in standing order 127 was to give every honorable senator a chance to know what business was coming on. If we can have sitting days ordered not in accordance with that standing order— 5107 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT That only refers to the rescission of a resolution. 5107 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Does it not also involve the alteration of a resolution? I think that it involves the whole question. It reads— An order, resolution, or other vote of the Senate may be rescinded; but no such orders, resolution, or other vote may be rescinded during the same session, unless seven days' notice be given, and at least one-half of the whole number of senators vote in favour of its rescission. Provided that to correct irregularities or mistakes one day's notice only shall be sufficient. I see that that might be against my argument; but I ask you, sir, whether it is not practically a rescission of the resolution of the 14th June to add new sitting days practically without notice, after it had been laid down that the sitting days for the session should be such as are set out in that sessional order. If the motion proposed to reduce the number of sitting days, you would certainly say that it was a rescission. Can we say that to increase the number of days is not equally a rescission? Although the Point is not 50 absolutely clear as I should like it to be, I shall not labour the argument further, but shall sum it up in this proposition: That to reduce the number of sitting days would undoubtedly be a rescission in part of the order of the 14th June, and therefore by parity of reasoning to add to the number of sitting days is actually a rescission in part of that order. 5108 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I shall give my ruling, and shall then rule out of order any honorable senator who wishes to speak on the point afterwards, unless, of course, lie desires to dispute the ruling. The ordinary practice of Parliaments and of the Senate has always been to fix a certain number of days for sitting at the commencement of a session, and to increase that number towards the end of the session. The point taken is that, by the wording of order No. 12. made on the 14th June, we are prevented from doing that in this instance, except by rescinding that order and making another. That I understand to be the point; if it is not I do not know what it is. The first question that arises is, what did the order of the 14th Jun mean? It reads— That the days of meeting of the Senate during the present session be Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of each week, at the hour of half-past 2 o'clock in the afternoon of Wednesday and Thursday, and at the hour of half-past 10 o'clock in the forenoon of Friday, unless otherwise ordered. These words, "unless otherwise ordered," apply- to the whole resolution. I admit that the contention which Senator Neild sets tip is possible, but I also think that the contention that the words are to be applied to the whole resolution is also possible, and that that is what the Senate intended. If that be so, there is nothing in the point raised by the honorable senator. As to the wisdom of that contention, I would ask honorable senators to consider why the words "unless otherwise ordered" were included in the order if it was intended that they should be applied only to Friday. The Senate has already confirmed that construction of the sessional order by agreeing to the order of the 17th August. In that order the days of meeting were altered by the Senate, and no question was raised. I think the broadest and most comprehensive meaning should be given to the resolution of the 14th June. There is another point to be considered. Were it not for standing orders Nos. 126 and 127 we could from time to time alter our resolutions, and we should be in the position of having two resolutions, one in conflict with the other, when the latter would, of course, prevail. That is a contention which was raised the other day. Undoubtedly that would be so if it were not for our standing orders 126 and 127. Standing order 126 reads— No question or amendment shall be proposed which is the same in substance as any question or amendment which in the same session has been resolved in the affirmative or negatived, unless the order, resolution, or vote on such question or amendment has been rescinded. The next standing order provides the method by which it can be rescinded. I ruled the other day that the resolution which we passed on the 11th September was ineffectual, because it absolutely contradicted the resolution which we passed on the 1 4th June and the first resolution had not been rescinded, and did not contain the words "until otherwise ordered." That was resolution No. 13 of the 14th June, and the resolution- to which we are now referring is another resolution altogether, No. 12 of the 14th June. In my opinion the meaning and intention of the Senate was to provide that the ordinary practice might be followed, namely, that we should increase the number of sitting days at the end of the session, and therefore that we meant the words "unless otherwise ordered" to apply to the whole resolution. Before putting the motion, I should like to say a word or two if I may be permitted to do so- I am going to vote against it, and I hope that it will not be carried. I am speaking from my own point of view, and I say that we have had very hard work during this week, and, at all events, should have next Monday, even though we sit on Mondays after that date. 5108 5.55 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I have no obfection to the motion if the Government think it necessary. 5108 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I think it absolutly necessary. 5108 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS But I wish to put in a plea for private members business. 5108 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD It will come on as a matter of course every Thursday now at 2.30 p.m. 5108 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS It is possible that there will be only one more Thursday in the session, and there is one Bill in the name of a private member of the Senate which, unless an opportunity is afforded to pass it this session, it will be useless to proceed with for the next three years. 5108 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Why did not the honorable senator think of that when he was "stone-walling" the other Bill? 5109 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I did not occupy twenty minutes on the Bill referred to. Owing to the importance which other honorable senators as well as myself attach to the Bill to which I. now refer, I think we ought to be given an opportunity to take action in connexion with it. I therefore move— That after the word "motions," line 9, the following words be inserted —"and except that private members' Bills already on the notice-paper take precedence of all other business after 6.30 p.m. on that day. Private members are being asked to meet On Monday to help to transact Government business, and it is not too much for them to ask that the Government should give them an opportunity to forward the business they have in hand. 5109 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD This would rescind the sessional order of the 14th June. 5109 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The motion fixes a new day altogether, and I think the amendment is in order.                                   Question—That the' words proposed to' he inserted be inserted—put. The Senate divided.                                                8                                                            18                                                Majority . .  . .   10 AYES                                        NOES                                            Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Original question resolved in the affirmative.               5109 Adjournment 5109 Motion (by Senator PLAYFORD) proposed— that the Senate do now adjourn. 5109 6.5 K0F Western Australia 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I should like to speak with all calmness, although I confess I find it extremely difficult to do so. The vote that was taken this afternoon, on the motion for the third reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill, unless I am under a very great misapprehension, constitutes one of the greatest breathes of the word of honour of honorable men of which I have ever had experience. 5109 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator must not reflect on a vote of the Senate. 5109 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I am not reflecting on a vote of the Senate, but on statements made in my hearing and in the hearing of others—statements on which I absolutely retied, and which were 'lever altered or retracted, but which, in view of what has occurred, have been absolutely "gone back on" in the most flagrant manner. I do not desire to impugn anybody's word, but to state the facts just as, to my mind, they occurred; and I think I shall be supported by the recollection of others. On Wednesday a compromise in regard to the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill was arrived at by which, on Senator Givens' amendment being accepted, it was agreed that the Bill should be allowed to go to the third reading on the following day. Owing to some heated remarks which passed, Senator Millen announced that he would not be a party to that agreement. That was, so far as it had been arrived at on the floor of the House. I desire Senator Clemons' attention, because I wish to state something that passed between him, the leader of the Government, and myself. During the dinner adjournment, Senator Clemons, the leader of the Government, and myself were endeavouring to arrive at an arrangement. 5109 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons What date? 5109 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE That was on the Wednesday. We were endeavouring to arrive at something as nearly approaching a compromise as was possible under the circumstances. Senator Clemons had up to that time been one of the most active in trying to arrive at a compromise, and he told us that, while he could not vouch for the great bulk of honorable senators on that side - because Senator Givens and others would not be a party to the agreement - he was prepared to meet us in a certain way. Senator Symon was here at the time, but he wished to go away on the following day; and Senator Clemons said that he would be prepared to assure us of a pair for Senator Symon, and that he would use his influence with senators on the other side, so far as he could, to have a straight-out debate and vote on the third reading. In the hearing of Senator Smith, Senator Clemons said that he believed he would be able to give Senator Fraser as a pair for Senator Symon, and that, if Senator Fraser would not pair, he, Senator Clemons himself, would pair with Senator Symon. 5110 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Senator Clemons said that in the Senate. 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE That was said by Senator Clemons in my hearing, and in the hearing of Senator Smith, while Senator Clemons was sitting alongside Senator Playford. I said to Senator Clemons, "Then we are to understand that you will pair Senator Fraser with Senator Symon, or you will pair with Senator Symon yourself," and he replied " Yes." 5110 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN This was all on the one day? 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE So far as my memory goes, it was while we were sitting here on the Wednesday. 5110 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN It was on the one day? 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE It was on the one day. It was the evening after the compromise had partially been arrived at from which Senator Millen broke away. 5110 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons What? 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE It was the evening when we arrived at the compromise dissolved by the breaking away of Senator Millen. 5110 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons Do you say it was before or after the compromise was broken? 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE It was after. 5110 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons What? 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE It was after the compromise which bound all honorable senators on that side to come to a third reading vote, and which also incidentally secured a pair for Senator Symon. 5110 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD I allowed the adjournment until the next day on the understanding that we had got a pair. 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I do not wish to be misunderstood. I admit freely and frankly that the first compromise fell to the ground. But there were subsequent negotiations with Senator Clemons, and the only understanding was that, although Senator Clemons could not bind senators on the other side, he would use his influence to bring about a straight-out vote, and, further, that he would secure Senator Fraser as a pair for Senator Symon, or, in the alternative, pair himself with Senator Symon; no other honorable senator was mentioned as a pair for Senator Symon. Throughout this debate, I have been acting as the representative on this side in the matter of pairs, both with the consent of the Government, and with the consent of the Western Australian senators. It is a matter of courtesy observed by all parliamentarians that in the matter of pairs all arrangements are-made b two men who are looked to as responsible on either side of the Chamber. From that time onward, I considered that either Senator Fraser or Senator Clemons was to be paired with Senator Symon. On the morning of the next day, in the clubroom of the Senate, I asked Senator Symon. "You have secured that pair?" and he replied, "Yes, I am paired." I ask the Senate to remember that on Thursday Senator Symon told me that he was paired. 5110 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE He said it in the afternoon again. 5110 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE On the Thursday evening, after Senator Symon haff left for Adelaide, it had a conversation with Senator Trenwith, who told me that he was paired with Senator Gray for Thursday. I asked Senator Trenwith, "What about to-morrow, Friday?" and he replied, I have not been able to secure a pair for tomorrow." I said, "Will not Senator Gray extend his pair with you for Friday?" and Senator Trenwith replied, "I am willing, if you can get Senator Gray to prolong the pair." I then said to Senator Trenwith—and the honorable senator left Melbourne with this in his mind—" I shall make it my business to-morrow to see Senator Gray and secure an extension of that pair with you." In pursuance of that promise, I to-day rang up Senator Gray no less than three times on the telephone, and I made it my business to go and see him at the railway station. I have in my pocket at the present time his authority to pair him with Senator Trenwith. First of all—with whom is Senator Symon paired? I have been told indirectly, as coming from members on the Opposition side, that Senator Symon is paired with Senator Trenwith. If that be the case, how comes it that Senator Symon told me on Thursday that he was paired, and that at that time Senator Trenwith was paired with Senator Gray, and the former told me that he had not been paired for the Friday? Furthermore, what about Senator Fraser's part in this drama? This afternoon Senator Fraser was asked by Senator Findley if he was paired, and, in reply to the direct question, Senator Fraser said, " Yes." Senator Findley then said to Senator Fraser, "it will be an all-night sitting, I think," and Senator Fraser replied, "Well, I will not be here all night anyhow." That happened this afternoon 'within a couple of hours of the vote being taken, and Senator Fraser gave Senator Findley—who will be able to speak as to the matter--to understand that he was paired. With whom was Senator Fraser paired? All the evidence Points to the fact that up to that time Senator Fraser and Senator Symon were paired. The understanding, so far as understandings in these matters are observed, certainly was that Senator Symon was to be Paired throughout with Senator Fraser, or in the alternative of Senator Fraser declining, with Senator Clemens. - What is to become of parliamentary courtesy? If an alteration of a pair is to take place, surely the least that can be done is to acquaint those on the opposite side with the fact. 5111 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD The honorable, senator did not take that view in reference to my pair. 5111 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I ask that Senator Pearce not be long, because, after all, this is a private matter. 5111 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE But when the honour of a member of the Senate is involved, I say that it is a public matter. 5111 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The Senate takes no cognizance of pairs. 5111 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE That may he so; but the position is that I saw Senator Gray, and he left the city after having given me authority to pair him with Senator Trenwith. If honorable senators opposite had acted in a fair, straightforward, and honorable way, a vote would not have been lost. In the debate on the Bill they have been emptying the vials of their indignation on honorable senators on this side— 5111 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I ask the honorable senator not to refer to a former debate. 5111 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I know I am limited in that respect, and I have every desire to observe the standing order; but I must say that such conduct as we have witnessed this afternoon deserves the severest reprehension of every man who likes straight dealing and fair voting. We are prepared at any time to accept defeat on fair lines, but we Cannot admit defeat on such lines as have been adopted in this particular case. I give way to honorable senators opposite when it comes to dealings such as they have been implicated in this afternoon; but it certainly reflects not to their credit, but to their discredit, and it will reflect to the discredit of the Senate if proceedings of the kind are tolerated. 5111 6.15 K6M Tasmania 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons —Although this debate may be out of order— 5111 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I think it is all out of order, but these seems to be so much feeling that I do not like to interrupt the honorable senator. 5111 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I shall not add to that feeling, sir, I give you my word. 5111 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator has been attacked, and has a right to reply. 5111 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons So far as I have seen attacked, I wish to tell the Senate that I have done nothing whatever that is not scrupulously just and honorable so far as the question of flairs is concerned. 5111 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Does the honorable senator throw the blame on Senator Fraser? 5111 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I do not throw the blame on any one, because I say that no blame can rightly attach to any single member of the party who voted against the third reading of the Railway Survey Bill. 5111 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE The honorable senator is on his trial. 5111 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons That is a most objectionable remark, which it is scarcely necessary for me to repudiate. I heard Senator de Largie say that I am on my trial. I am on no trial; but as accusations have been made against me, I suppose it is proper that I should take some notice of them. 5111 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor The honorable senator is on his defence. 5111 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I have no defence to make at all. I suppose it will be admitted that Senator Symon expressed his intention to vote for the third reading of the Railway Survey Bill, and that Senator Trenwith expressed his intention to vote against it. Is either of those statements objected to by any honorable senator? Seeing that there is complete silence when I ask this simple question, I may take it that the remark is not challenged. 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Did those honorable senators authorize Senator Clemons to pair them? 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons No. But I say to every member of the Senate who is listening that we all know how they intend to vote. We all know that Senator Symon’s intention was to vote for the third reading of the Bill, and that Senator Trenwith’s intention was to vote against hit. If those are facts, as I say they are, there is nothing more to be said. 5112 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON Senator Trenwith said distinctly that he was going to vote against "stone-walling.” 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT This is a personal matter, and I think it is only fair to allow both sides to be heard. I therefore ask honorable senators not to interject. 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I have nearly completed my statement. 5112 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE What about Senator Gray? 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons With regard to the attitude of Senator Gray, so far as I am concerned, I am perfectly blameless. I have done nothing that was not strictly honorable, but if further information is required on that point, in the absence of Senator Gray, I must merely ask Senator Pearce, or any other honorable senator who wishes to do so, to probe the matter deeper. 5112 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I am not concerned about Senator Gray, but about Senator Symon and Senator Trenwith. 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I will come to another point, and will try not to speak with any heat upon it. So far as any pledge is concerned, I have justly and scrupulously carried out any that I gave. With regard to Senator Symon's pair, I gave a pledge on the subject when we were endeavouring to effect a compromise, that if that compromise had continued, I would go so far as to make a pair with Senator Symon, But that arrangement, which I did my best to bring about, I did my best to bring about, was broken, and disappeared. 5112 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE I said so 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I am glad that Senator Pearce has not misrepresented me in that. To that extent, and no further, to any extent, or to any conceivable way, was I pledged to give Senator Symon a pair. I have finished. The Senate can easily see what happened. On may occasions – I might almost say thirty or forty occasions – during this debate, pairs have been transferred at the will of the senators who were pairing from time to time. I have nothing further to add. 5112 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE Was not the pair I have mentioned, transferred? Will not the honorable senators answer that? 5112 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Singleton Senator Clemons I have nothing to add except – and Senator Pearce can accept my word or not – to state deliberately that I have done nothing in this matter that has not been scrupulously honorable 5112 6.18 L2I New South Wales 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH May I make a statement with regard to this matter? 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator's name was not mentioned in connextion with it. 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH It was mentioned by Senator Pearce, and I think that I have a right to speak. 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT No good can happen from prolonging this discussion. Nothing can arise except angry feeling. I hope that the honorable senator will say nothing more. 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH I ask the Senate to allow me to speak, seeing that my name has been mentioned. 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I ask that the honorable senator not to continue. 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH But I wish to speak. 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I do not think that the honorable senator is taking a very wise course. 5112 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN If the debate is to become general, it must be understood that other honorable senators will have the right to speak. 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT We may have twenty more speakers. 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH But I claim the right to speech. 5112 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I allowed Senator Pearce to make the statement that he did, and Senator Clemons to reply, but now I think that the matter had better drop. The continuance of the debate will do no good whatever 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH But I must ask the Senate to allow me to say a word or two. 5112 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Why? 5112 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Because my name has been mentioned. It is of no use for honorable senators opposite to try and bully me, because I am going to speak. 5113 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT No accusation has been made against the honorable senator. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Any senator can speak on any subject on the motion for the adjournment. 5113 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT He can speak on any public subject but the continuance of this discussion is, I think, really a great mistake. I think that it would be wise for Senator Smith not to proceed. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH This is a question that affects that affects the loss of a very important Bill, and one that affects the honour of the Senate. 5113 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT No, not the honour of the Senate; the conduct of certain senators has been attacked, that is all. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH I will relate what I know about the matter. When Senator Symon left yesterday, I was sitting in the Chamber, and Senator Clemons came up and said----- 5113 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD On a point of order—a fresh charge is being made against Senator Clemons, who has already spoken, and cannot speak again. He therefore will not have the right to reply to the charge. 5113 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I do not know what Senator Smith is going to say, and therefore I do not know whether he intends to make fresh charges against anybody. I think the wisest course would be for him not to say anything more. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH I shall have to ask the Senate to allow me to proceed. 5113 K0X 1 0 PLAYFORD, Thomas Senator PLAYFORD May I point out that the Standing Orders enable an honorable senator to speak to the motion for the adjournment of the Senate? 5113 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The question is whether a private arrangement between senators should be discussed in the Senate. 5113 JTV 0 0 DAWSON, Andrew (Anderson) Senator DAWSON But it is an arrangement between public men. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH When Senator Symon left yesterday, Senator Playford stated that he would agree to an adjournment providing that a pair was given to Senator Symon. Senator Clemons then stated to Senator Pearce and to the Minister that he would agree that a pair should be granted to Senator Symon. Senator Pearce added, "Will you pair him right through?" and Senator Clemons said, "Yes." What I wish to point out is that Senator Clemons had agreed to pair Senator Symon. Senator Clemons, in speaking just now, said, " I 'have to put two positions; one is that Senator Trenwith was against the Bill, and the other that Senator Symon was in favour of the Bill; therefore there is nothing dishonorable in what I have done." But what I wish to ask is this: Did Senator Trenwith desire that Senator Clemons should pair Senator Symon with him? I think that Senator Clemons should tell the Senate whether he was authorized to pair Senator Trenwith, who was already Paired. If Senator Trenwith authorized Senator Clemons to pair him with Senator Symon we ought to be told. Senator Trenwith told Senator Pearce that he would be agreeable to pair with Senator Gray if Senator Gray agreed. Senator Pearce got a statement from Senator Gray in writing that he was willing to pair with Senator Trenwith. Therefore both those honorable senators were paired. The position is this—Senator Trenwith has been paired with two senators. He authorized Senator Pearce to pair him. All that I ask of Senator Clemens is that he shall state—because I consider that the honour of the Senate is at stake—whether Senator Trenwith authorized him to pair him with Senator Symon? 5113 6.29 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I am rather amused at this tremendous display of indignation over a practice which has been followed by the honorable senators who protest against it. A man who in this fashion raises a question of honour is to all intents and purposes, like those who enter an equity Court; and we all know that those who go there must go with clean hands. The indignation and the protests of honorable senators who carried the second reading of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill by means of a transferred pair from Senator Neild to Senator Gray are hardly justifiable in reference to a transferred pair on the present occasion. Was there any protest then? Did Senator Pearce draw the attention of the Senate to what he regarded as disgraceful and dishonorable conduct on that occasion? No. He profited by the transference of a pair then; he carried the second reading of his Bill by means of it. 5113 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH If that was wrong, I suppose that the honorable senator means that two wrongs make a right? 5113 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I am complaining that Senator Pearce on that occasion profited by the transferred pair, and said nothing. If there is anything in his display of virtue now, I test it by what he did on the previous occasion. I say that he remained silent and allowed the second reading of this Bill to be carried by a procedure that he now condemns. How was it carried? It was carried by means of a pair of transferred from Senator Pulsford to Senator Gray. There can be no doubt about Senator Neild’s pair on the occasion, because it is entered in the pair book as “pair for the second reading.” 5114 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE By the other party to the pair. Did he have anything to say in the trickery to-day? 5114 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN Did Senator Neild have anything to say? He was not here, and was not consulted, but by an arbitrary act on the part of Senator Pulsford the pair was transferred, without authority, from Senator Neild to Senator Gray. 5114 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE He denied that on the floor of the senate. 5114 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN I am not saying whether a transfer in that way is right or wrong. All I say is that it is too late in the day for honorable senators opposite to come here as the champions of virtue. 5114 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH We had nothing to do with that pair. 5114 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Davis Senator MILLEN No; but honorable senators profited by the pair, and did not utter a protest; nor did we squeal because we suffered. We took our “licking” in a way which they have yet to learn. 5114 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I cannot permit steps if honorable senators will not conform to the Standing Orders. The place is getting like a bear-garden. 5076 6.33 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Mr President - 5114 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator's name has not been mentioned. 5114 6.33 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Whether my name has been mentioned or not, I claim the right to speak on behalf of a state which has been deliberately tricked by acts of which men ought to be ashamed, and to make a protest at this stage. Sitting suspended from 6.34 to 7.45 p.m. 5114 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I think, sir, that every honorable senator will sympathize with you in the position into which you have been forced during the last few days. I can realize that it has been a very trying time indeed for you; and remembering the strain to which you have been subjected, any little exhibition of irritability is quite pardonable in the circumstances. I make that observation, because I feel that I am taking up a rather strong attitude in declining to comply with your request not to speak at this juncture. 5114 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT My only object in making the request was to prevent the ventilation of a number of greivances, and so on, which had better not take place before the public. 5114 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE In ordinary circumstances, sir, I would sooner be silent than challenge a request from the Chair, because I know when debate becomes heated we are all apt to forget ourselves a little. So far as I can remember, this is the first time I have ever spoken on a motion to adjourn the Senate. It is only because a keen sense of wrong and injustice is rankling in my mind that I have risen to make a protest against an act which I hope will never be repeated here. We all echoes words the other day when you referred to the manner in which the business of the Senate has been conducted during your tenure of office, which, of course, is coincident with the existence of the Senate. So far as honesty of purpose is concerned, hitherto there has never been a suspicion of unfairness or trickery having been practiced between one senator and another. Time and again I have given pairs to political opponents with whom I had no sympathy. When I first entered the Chamber I was unacquainted with parliamentary forms. I was unsophisticated so far as a knowledge of the tricks of the ”old parliamentary hand” was concerned. I readily gave a pair whenever I was asked, until, as a regular attendant. I began to realize that it could be carried to far. Pairing is a custom in the Chamber. Although it is not recognised by Standing Orders, yet it is strongly established customs. A pair-book is kept upon the table, pairs are recorded in Hansard, and a pair between two senators is looked upon as being as binding as their word of honour. When a pair is agreed to and afterwards broken we have a right to draw attention to the fact in the hope that the protest will have the effect of preventing a repetition of such conduct. God forbid that the Senate should ever again have experience of the kind it has had to-day! We do not wish our politics to be corrupted by such tactics. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD What about the pairing a fortnight ago? 5115 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Senator Neild made a statement, Senator Pulsford made a statement, and we believed the latter. 5114 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Perhaps I had better refer to that pair, as it was referred to by Senator Millen this evening, and by Senator Neild a few days ago. It is all narrowed down to a question of the word of Senator Pulsford as against the word of Senator Neild. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Nothing of the kind. There is the pair-book to refer to. 5115 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH In that case every senator voted as he wished to vote, but in this case he did not. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE here is nothing dishonest in the fact that the name of Senator Gray had been substituted for the name of Senator Pulsford, the vote of every honorable senator being recorded in one way or other. 5115 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Foster Senator PEARCE And with the consent of one of the parties to the pair. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD What was the use of that when the consent of the other party was not asked? 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE It is a case of the word of one man against the word of another. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD It is not a question of the word of either, because the pair is recorded in the pair-book. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Those who know Senator Pulsford will take his word just as readily as they will take Senator Neild's. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD It is not a question of any one's word; and do not be so offensive. 5115 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order! 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I am not offensive when I compare Senator Pulsford with the honorable senator. Did he think that by changing his seat his size would scare me? Nothing of the kind. This is not the proper place for a scene. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I can sit where I like. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE If the honorable senator meant business, this is not the place in which to make an exhibition. 5115 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order! I must appeal to honorable senators to sustain the dignity of the Senate. 5115 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR I shall look after the honorable senator. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE All I have to say in regard to the sudden movement of Senator Neild from one end of the bench to the other is that there is a time and a place for an exhibition of that kind. I had nothing to do with the pair between Senator Neild and Senator Pulsford. When we remember that the pairs were all duly accounted for, and that every vote was carefully recorded-- -- 5115 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order! 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE No doubt it is amusing that what was intended to be a tragedy has turned out to be a farce. Perhaps it is just as well that it was a burlesque. 5115 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD No doubt. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Had the division been sprung upon us this afternoon by any smart but honest action on the part of our opponents I would have been 'willing to give credit to them for their tactics The votes of honorable senators, recorded either in division lists or in the pair-book, show that there is a majority in favour of the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill, so that no one can say that it has been 'fairly defeated. Although the third reading has, on this occasion, been negatived, a majority of the Senate.is in favour of the Bill. I would a thousand times rather lose than secure victory by tactics such as have been adopted this afternoon. The opponents of the measure have won, but at a terrible cost to themselves, and I hope that what we have seen this afternoon will never be repeated in the history of this Chamber. Since the adjournment for dinner a telegram has been received from Senator Trenwith in regard to his pair. It has been implied by Senator Clemons, though no clear statement was made to which any one could reply directly, That Senator Trenwith was paired with Senator Symon. That, no doubt, is the inference drawn by nine-teiiths of those present. 5115 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY There is no doubt about it. Senator Clemons said that Senator Symon and Senator Trenwith were paired. 5115 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE We challenged Senator Fraser's vote, because we knew that he was paired with Senator Symon, and we were then given to understand that the pair had been changed. Has it been changed? I say that it has not, because Senator Trenwith states in his telegram— I had not paired with Senator Symon. 5116 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher George Senator HENDERSON So discraceful as that! 5116 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE The man who should have known about the pair is ignorant of it. 5116 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Can a whip pair an honorable senator without his authority? 5116 KSH 0 0 MacFARLANE, James Senator MacFARLANE The pair is not in the pair-book. 5116 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE As a matter off act, Senators Symon and Trenwith have not been paired. Speaking on Wednesday last, I said that I did not care whether the vote was taken that night, next day, or next week, so long as it was not a snatch vote, but gave the true expression of the opinion of the Senate. The reluctance to allow pairs in regard to the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill has been such as I have not known in regard to any other measure, and excited the suspicion in my mind that some trickery was afoot. I was a true seer, because the result has proved that the tactics which I apprehended were being pursued by our opponents. But without wishing to speak ungraciously, I feel that those who have been defeated are in a much more creditable position than that occupied by those who have won by such tactics. 5116 7.59 JXT New South Wales 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD As my name has been dragged into this discussion unnecessarily, I think it only fair to say a word or two. In the first place, I have no knowledge as to what has been going on in connexion with the arrangement of pairs upon the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill. 5116 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH Hear, hear. Every one thinks that. 5116 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I fought the Bill in this Chamber, but I have not fought it anywhere else. As to the observations with reference to the existence of the pair which I regard as having been broken, I being the victim of the breach, it is altogether too bad that it has been stated to be a question of credibility between Senator Pulsford and myself. It is not a question of credibility. I should not have mentioned the matter again, because it is most unpleasant for a senator who desires to be on terms of the closest friendship, not only with his colleagues from the State which he represents, but also with every other senator - 5116 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE The honorable senator did not look very friendly a few moments ago 5116 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Because I was very much annoyed by an assertion which I am now refuting, the honorable senator having said that he preferred to take Senator Pulsford's word to mine. 5116 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I did not say anything of the kind. 5116 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD Then I regret that I misrepresented the honorable senator. Someone said it, and the statement annoyed me. It is not a question of preferring any one's word, because the pair is entered in the pair-book in the following fashion: — DATE - August 17. SUBJECT - Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway Survey Bill. PERIOD - Second Reading, FOR - Senator Pulsford AGAINST - 1no. C. Nield. Having written in those words, I submitted the entry to Senator Pulsford, so that he might agree to it, and then went away. My position in regard to the Bill is pretty well known. I was riot prepared to vote for the second reading until certain doubts in my mind, not in regard to engineering questions, but on questions of public policy, had been cleared up. Senators Croft and Pearce approached me a session or two ago, after I had announced my Opposition to the Bill, saying that I should vote against the second reading, and asked me f I would Vote for it on condition that the measure was referred to a Select Committee to investigate the difficulties which were perplexing me. I said that I would do that, and therefore voted for the second reading, but the second reading was not - carried even with my vote, I subsequently gave notice of motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to investigate the matter, but, owing to illness, I was prevented from proceeding with it. Can it therefore be said that my attitude was one of irreconcilability or persistent animosity to the measure? A month or two ago I was asked by the political party with which I am more or less connected to undertake certain work on its behalf, and my reply was that I could not get away unless I had a live pair On: the Bill. I then went to Senator Playford, and said, "If you go on with the Bill while I am away, you will lose two votes, because I have paired with Senator Pulsford; but if we are both here, and I can have a 'fair go for a Select Committee, I will vote for the second reading. Senator Puisford agreed to the pair without limitation of time, it being a pair for the "second reading, c." I went away in good faith. Something has been said about it being understood that I was going for three weeks. The statement is in Hansard. Is there anything about three weeks in the pair-book? If honorable senators will turn to the pair in the book between Senator Neild and Senator Gray they will find that it was made not at the end of three weeks, but at the end of two weeks. Now, whose word is entitled to be believed? I never said anything about three weeks. It was Senator Pulsford who said that, and it was he who transferred me from what I thought was a live pair to a pair with an honorable senator who was too ill to leave his bed. 5116 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH The honorable senator will admit that in the case he refers to, every honorable senator, voted as he wished, but in this case every honorable senator has not voted as he wished. 5117 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD With that I have nothing whatever to do. I am speaking under a sense of regret that I have to make any further reference to a matter that involves the pleasant relations which have existed between myself and one of my colleagues in the representation of New South Wales, or between myself and another member of the Senate. But to-night I was plainly told by some honorable senator that it was a question of creditability as between Senator Pulsford and myself, and some honorable senator interjected that he would prefer to believe Senator Pulsford. I say the pair-book absolutely proves beyond the possibility of doubt that the pair I had made in all good faith was transferred to a pair with an honorable senator whose vote was in operative, and it was only by that process of transfer that the second reading of the Bill was carried. 5117 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR Was not the honorable senator's vote inoperative also? 5117 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD The sound of Senator McGregor's voice recalls to my memory a. tact which I have publicly acknowledged in my own State, and which I am very pleased to be able to acknowledge here, that when I was on a supposed death-bed last year, and was absent by leave of the Senate, the party to which Senator McGregor belongs, and the honorable senator himself, paid me the high personal compliment, and my State the high and distinguished piece of fair dealing of giving me a pair all the time of my illness, when I was utterly unable to be here. I am very glad that I have this opportunity of acknowledging that pair in as public a manner in this Chamber as I have done under my hand in the newspapers of the capital city of my State, and as I have done in addressing public audiences in that State. 5117 KTF 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR That was only fair, and it recognised the rights of the State. 5117 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD It was more than fair. It was handsome treatment, because I was on leave, and I do not think I was entitled to a pair. I am proud to have been the subject of so much goodwill, and I thank the members of the Senate throughout for any courtesy of that kind they extended to me at the time. I wish to say that as to the pair which has been discussed this afternoon, I know no more about it than does the waste-paper basket. I have not been in the confidence of those who have been conducting a hard-fought campaign, but I have heard sufficient to make me believe that there has been misapprehension. It is pretty well known to honorable senators that Senator Clemons and I have not always been the best of friends in times past, and are not on special terms of friendship now; but I have heard enough to convince me that whatever mistake has been made it will be found, when the whole truth has been told, that Senator Clemons is not entitled to the blame attributed to him. 5117 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Would not that wire indicate that he was? 5117 JXT 0 0 NEILD, John Cash Senator Col. NEILD I am not prepared to discuss the wire, because I do not know exactly how it is worded. It appears to me that Senator Trenwith was paired by both sides, but I do not know the full significance of the pair, and really know so little of the matter that I am not qualified at the present stage to pass any opinion upon it. But from something which has reached my ears, I think it will be found that Senator Clemons is not entitled to receive the strictures passed upon him. I say that on behalf of an absent man, and a man whom no one will allege to have been my personal friend since I met him here. There have been hot passages between us more often than friendly ones, but I like a fair deal all round, and I would not say an i ugly word against the devil himself merely because he was the devil, or because we might meet some day at closer quarters than would be pleasant. I hope that what I have said will tend to disabuse the minds of honorable senators of any feeling of ill-will, and to check this process of washing dirty linen, which is not to the credit of the Senate. It will do us no good. If there is something definite to be said there might not be so much harm, but I hope the good sense of honorable senators will induce them to refrain from statements based on imputations and suspicions. They are naturally suffering from a sense of annoyance. When in Brisbane, last week, I read of a certain pair, I suffered from a sense of annoyance, and I came here feeling very' much annoyed. However, I do not think that I took up much time in making a grievance of it, and certainly not so much time as I have had to occupy tonight in trying to put things straight. I beg honorable senators opposite to accept my assurance that if there is a grievance on one side, there has also been a grievance on the other. What has happened will necessarily be definitely cleared up before the end of the session, better than we can hope it will be cleared up tonight by accusations which have not a sufficient degree of proof in support of them to warrant our continuing a discussion which, however much it might relieve the annoyance of individuals, does not tend to sustain the orderly reputation of the Senate, or to promote the personal good-will which I most sincerely hope may exist amongst honorable senators, particularly at a time when half the members of the Senate are approaching the end of the period of their service, and will have to seek a renewal of public confidence before they will again meet those of us who are more happily placed. 5118 8.13 KTF South Australia 0 0 McGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR I am very pleased to hear that Senator Neild repudiates any knowledge of anything of a character which might be repugnant to the taste of honorable senators, present or absent. I am not going to blame anyone. I hope that before the end of the session is reached, the difficulty will be cleared up, and that good feeling will again prevail amongst the honorable senators before they part. But I wish to make a statement which has some bearing on what really transpired, because I think it is due not only to honorable senators, but to the public, in the interests of the confidence which should be reposed in the Senate, that such a statement should be made. On Wednesday last, late in the afternoon, I approached Senator Fraser, having been led to believe that he was anxious to get away, and it was convenient also for myself to go away. I asked the honorable senator for a pair, and we arranged that pair. I considered that it continued. Yesterday morning, Senator Guthrie desired to get away, and I was present. I am making this statement to show the difference in the methods adopted in connexion with pars Senator Guthrie came to me and said: "Are you willing to transfer your pair with Senator Fraser to me?" and I replied, "I cannot do that without Senator Fraser's Consent." Senator Fraser just then came into the Chamber, and I said to Senator Guthrie, "If you can get Senator Fraser's consent, I am willing to transfer the pair." Senator Fraser's consent was obtained, and that was a legitimate transaction. Senator Guthrie informed me that he was paired with Senator Fraser until 1 o'clock yesterday, at which hour Senator Fraser became paired with Senator Symon. That is exactly what occurred. If, an hour or less before the division was taken, Senator Fraser told Senator Findley, in the presence of Senator Croft, that he was paired- -well, there is some explanation necessary, and I hope that one will be made. I should not like to accuse a gentleman of the age of Senator Fraser, and of his standing in Victoria and in this Senate, of saying what was not true, or of in any way misleading any other honorable senator; but there is some explanation required. When Senator Clemons says that Senator Symon was in favour of the Bill and that Senator Trenwith was against it, and then makes no further statement—when we now have a wire from Senator Trenwith saying that he was not paired with Senator Symon—further explanation is necessary before that harmony and good feeling which has existed hitherto can be restored. 5118 8.17 KOS Western Australia 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher George Senator HENDERSON I re-echo the sincere hope of Senators Neild and McGregor that such explanations will be forthcoming as to render the position at least different from what it at present appears to be. I trust that during the present session we shall be able to wipe out the stain that apparently rests on some of the transactions of this day. I have the strongest feelings of disapprobation for any conduct that is at all of a shady character. It is possible to fight even a lion when it is roaring in your path, tut if even a small, insignificant man is secretly engineering in order to deceive or defeat you, it is a hard task to defend yourself. From the evidence placed before the Senate by Senator de Largie, it appears that, either wilfully or otherwise, efforts, that cannot be regarded as reputable, have been made to defeat a certain proposal before the Senate. When Senator Clemons made an attempt to show that his honour was unsullied—that his hands were absolutely clean, and that it was impossible for any one to hurl accusations of dishonorable practice against him—he said, "Senator Trenwith was opposed to the Bill, and Senator Symon was in favour of the Bill, and that is all I have to say about it; I have done nothing other than what any honest man could possibly do under the circumstances." The telegram from Senator Trenwith, informing us that he was never paired with Senator Symon, shows clearly that if the pair with Senator Fraser was transferred, no other conclusion can be arrived at than that the man who transferred it has been guilty, of a gross breach of all political honour. What would we on this side have done under similar circumstances? Senator Matheson is strongly in favour of this Railway Survey Bill, and we might legitimately, and honesty have urged that fact. We might have gone on to say that Senator Best is opposed to the Bill, and to ask why we should not transfer the pair of Senator Drake, who is favourable to the Bill, from Senator Best, and place Senator Best and Senator Matheson as a pair, leaving Senator Drake to exercise honesty his vote in the Senate. What would have been said by honorable senators opposite if we had been guilty of such a transaction. Rather than attempt anything of that sort, we would be prepared to suffer any kind of defeat. I am glad that, although we have been defeated, we have been defeated with all our colours still floating in the sight of Australia. 5119 8.24 JTH Western Australia 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT I have to express very great regret, as a member of the Senate, at the occurrence this afternoon. When I was elected to the Senate, I had a great belief in the honour of members of this Parliament. I always looked upon any private arrangements in which the pair-book played a part as being in the nature of honorable compacts which no senator would think of breaking. On this occasion, however and, unfortunately, in the early part of the afternoon, I had a suspicion that something of the kind was being done--the compact has been broken. It was generally understood that Senator Fraser had been paired with Senator Symon. 5119 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH It was publicly stated. 5119 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT An arrangement was entered into by which pairs were to be provided for all honorable senators who could not be present to vote, and the Government asked to be assisted to get the measure through. This afternoon, when the bells rang for the division, Senator Fraser came in and recorded his vote. About an hour before, I was carrying on a conversation with him in one of the rooms outside the Chamber when Senator Finley came in, and, evidently with the idea of securing a pair for himself, asked Senator Fraser, "Are you paired?" Senator Fraser replied. "Oh, yes." 5119 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY And when I said that there was to be an all-night sitting, he stated that he would not take' part in it. 5119 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Yes; he said that he was not going to injure his health by remaining here all night. I cannot believe that there has been an accident. One of two things has happened. Either Senator Fraser has deliberately broken his word—has told a lie by giving it forth that he was paired and did not intend to vote, or he has been over persuaded to give his vote by those who have been taking part in the organized opposition to this Bill. A number of honorable senators have repeatedly met and discussed the best tactics to pursue in opposing the measure. 5119 L2I 0 0 SMITH, Miles Staniforth Cater Senator STANIFORTH SMITH At most, there were only one or two to blame. 5119 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT I know that in most of these movements the leaders are responsible for what is done. Before we can regard the pair-book as reliable, and before some of the whips can approach others in order to make arrangements for pairs, we must have a proper explanation with regard to what happened this afternoon. When the principles of the Labour Party are at stake, the voting is generally very close, and we cannot enter into any arrangements in the future such as those which have been made in the past until this matter has been cleared up. I have allowed myself to say, outside this Chamber, that I felt it very, keenly that certain members of the Labour Party might be implicated in this matter. I do not think, however, that they had any knowledge of the tactics that were being adopted. If they had, they would be no longer worthy to be associated with the party to which I belong. I cannot believe that Senator Higgs or Senator Givens were parties to what took place. 5119 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS I had nothing what ever to do with any pair but my own. 5119 JTH 0 0 CROFT, John William Senator CROFT Senator Trenwith's telegram tends to show that nothing less than the paltriest kind of trickery was resorted to. Question resolved in the affirmative. 5120 20:30:00 Senate adjourned at 8.30 p.m.