1907-09-20 3 1 0 SENATE 3556 0 Senate. 1907-09-20 The President took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 3556 Questions 3556 3556 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN With reference to an assurance which the Vice-President of the Executive Council gave me recently, that he would cause inquiries to be made into a published statement that an arrangement has been arrived at by the starch manufacturers for the purpose of raising the price of their commodity, I desire to ask the honorable gentleman, without notice, whether those inquiries have been made, and if so, with what result? 3556 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST The inquiries have been made, but, unfortunately, I do not happen to have the papers with me. If my honorable friend will renew his question on Wednesday next, I shall be prepared to furnish an answer. 3556 Disputer Returns and Qualifications Committee's Report 3556 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Mr. President, I wish to direct your attention to an article in this morning's Argus, which is headed " Disputed Senate Seat," and sub-headed " Election Committee's Report." It says-— A draft report had been prepared by the chairman, and this was submitted to the Committee and considered. The greater portion of the report was adopted, and it was decided to defer further consideration until October when Senator de Largie will have returned. I ask you, sir, whether, in your opinion, if is not advisable to bring the author of the report before the Senate and ascertain whe-. ther a breach of privilege has not been committed ; in fact, whether the Committee of Disputed Returns and Qualifications has given a report to fhe press before it has been communicated to tbe Senate? 3556 K0F WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE Why does not the honorable senator read the. article to the Senate? 3556 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I will read the remainder of the paragraph— This was done in order that the Committee, might, if possible, present a unanimous report to the Senate. The report will, it.is understood, upset the opinion of the Attorney-General that a casual vacancy had been created by the voiding of Mr. Vardon's election. The Committee will be unanimously of opinion that the selection should not have been made by the State Parliament, but that a fresh election by the people of South Australia should have been held. This will, of course, mean, if the report is adopted by the Senate, that Senator O'Loghlin will be unseated, and a new election held. I ask, sir, that the author of the paragraph should be made to divulge the source of his information. When a paragraph of that character is published in the press I think that a gross breach of the privileges of the Senate is committed. 3557 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Is the honorable senator asking a question or raising a matter of privilege? 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I am asking you, sir, to investigate the matter and report to the Senate whether a breach of privilege has been committed or not. 3557 JXT NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 NEILD, John Senator NEILD That is not the duty of the President. 3557 KSH TASMANIA 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE What did the Age say last week? 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I do not know what the Age said last week. I only know what the Argus says to-day. 3557 KSH TASMANIA 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE It is only assumption. 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Mr. President, I call your attention to the paragraph, and ask you whether you do not think that a breach of privilege has been committed, and what steps you will take in the matter? 3557 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Standing order 296 says— The evidence taken by any Select Committee of the Senate, and documents presented to such Committee which have not been reported to the Senate, shall not be disclosed or published by any member, of such Committee, or by any other person. The honorable senator will observe that the report in the Argus is a statement that the Committee of Disputed Returns and Qualifications met and determined to delay submitting their report until after a certain event had taken place. I do not see that the publication of that statement is a breach of privilege. The report goes on with an assumption by the writer that such and such a thing will be the case. Unless the honorable senator is in a position to show that a breach of privilege - has been committed by a member of the Committee, it is difficult to proceed. I suggest that the attention of the chairman of the Committee should be directed to the paragraph, and also to standing order 296, and that he should ask whether a breach of that rule has been committed by any member of the Committee. The chairman would then be able to make an inquiry, and whan the result was reported the Senate would be in a position to take such action as it might be advised, or might deem it advisable, to take. At the present time, it has only a mere rumour or suggestion by a newspaper writer before it. I do not think that we can interfere with a newspaper suggesting anything it likes in that way. The standing order dealing with newspapers says— Any senator complaining to the Senate of a statement in a newspaper as a breach of privilege,' shall produce a copy of the paper containing . the statement in question, and be prepared to give the. name of the printer or publisher, and also submit a substantive motion declaring the person in question to have been guilty of contempt. The honorable senator will see that even that does not affect the position very mucn. because it is only a suggestion by a newspaper that it is understood that so-and-so will take place. In all the circumstances, the only course which I think the Senate can very well take is to cause an inquiry to be made of the Committee, througb its chairman1, as to whether any information has been divulged and in the way suggested, and then to take whatever action it may see fit. 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I cannot put a question directly to the chairman of the Committee, because he is not in his place this morning. 3557 KAH NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 WALKER, JAMES Senator Walker Senator Dobson is acting chairman. 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I call the attention of Senator Dobson to the statement made in the Argus this morning, that— A draft report had been prepared by the chairman, and this was submitted to the Committee and considered. The greater portion of the report was adopted, and it was decided to defer further consideration until October 3, when Senator de Largie will have returned. I ask the honorable senator if that is a true statement of what took place? 3557 KVD TASMANIA 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY The honorable senator can only ask Senator Dobson if he has communicated it to the newspaper. 3557 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE No; I ask the honorable senator if it is a true statement of what took place at the meeting of the Committee? 3557 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I would point out to the honorable senator 'that the report, so far as he has gone, is not of great moment to the Senate. It is a matter of public notoriety that the Committee has been sitting and inquiring into this case. The mere publication of the statement that the Committee had met, that a report had been drafted, and that final consideration of it had been postponed until a certain event is surely no breach of privilege. It is a mere statement of what has been done, and not a statement of the conclusions arrived at or of the nature of the report to be made to the Senate. If any attempt were made by a member of the Committee to inform the press that its report would contain sb-and-so, it would certainly be a serious breach of privilege, and also a breach of duty on his part. 3558 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I ask Senator Dobson if anv authority was granted to any. member of the Committee to supply to the press a report of its proceedings? 3558 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON Certainly not. 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN May I ask, sir, whether, in the remarks you have just made, you assume that there is no technical difference between the Committee of Disputed Returns and Elections and a Select Committee, to which the standing order you read specifically refers? 3558 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT In a matter of this character I think there should be no difference. I understand that an application was made to the Committee of Disputed Returns and Qualifications that representatives of the press should be allowed to be present during the inquiry. The public have not been admitted, and therefore no information could have been obtained in that way. I think that the standing order I quoted will, so far as it goes, apply to the case of an inquiry into a disputed return. 3558 3558 KAH NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER Some weeks having elapsed since the last inquiry was made, will the Vice-President of the Executive Council be kind enough to say whether recent advices from London give any better hope that under the agreement, dated 13th December, 1906, between the Honorable Austin Chapman, Postmaster-General, and Barclay and Company Limited, the guarantee in connexion with the cancelled mail contract is likely to be paid ? I have been glancing through the letter of guarantee, and it seems to me that it is very debatable whether there is any liability. 3558 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST I think that, some time ago, I gave to my honorable friend ao> assurance' that the instructions from this end were to proceed and enforce all the legal rights of the Commonwealth, that we are-acting under the advice of legal counsel at the other end, and that the proceedings will-be prosecuted at the proper moment. 3557 JXT NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 NEILD, John Senator NEILD Is it a fact,, as stated in the press, that the counsel employed by the Commonwealth to prosecute-its claim have reported to the Government' against the probability of recovering the amount? 3558 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST I am not piepared to disclose the nature • of our advice. The best interests of the Commonwealth will be consulted by maintaining complete silence-until the proper moment. 3557 JXT NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 NEILD, John Senator NEILD Can the honorable senator inform me who disclosed tothe press the statement that the Government had been advised by their counsel in England that they could not recover under the bond? 3558 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST I am not in a position-tc state who inspired or authorized the paragraph referred to. I should be very sorry to think it possible that any member of the Government would give such erroneous information. 3558 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE I ask the Minister whether it is a fact that the bond was entered into on the original agreement, and not on the agreement as amended by this Parliament? 3558 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST So far as my information goes, a fresh bond was entered into on the 13th December, 1906, after the amendments had been made by this Parliament. 3558 3558 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Senator LYNCH asked the Vice-President of the Executive Council, upon notice— 1. Whether tlie Government have requested the South Australian Parliament to pass the-necessary measure of consent to the Transcontinental Railway Survey ? 2. If so, what was the nature of the reply? 3. - If no action has been taken by the Government, why not? 3558 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING The answers to-the honorable senator's questions are as follow— 2. A reply has been received to the effect that resolutions in connexion with the matter will shortly be submitted to both Houses of the State Parliament. 3. Action has been taken. 3559 3559 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Senator GUTHRIE asked the Vice-president of the Executive Council, upon notice— lity of including their proposed Compensation for Injuries to Seamen Bill within the Navigation and Shipping Bill ? 2. If. not, will they introduce and facilitate the passage of the Compensation Bill before dealing in Committee with Part II. (Masters and Seamen) of the Navigation Bill? 3559 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST The answers to the honorable senator's questions are as follow— 1. It is not considered advisable to include these provisions in the Navigation Bill. 2. Instructions have been given for the preparation of the Bill relating to compensation, and it will be introduced before the Navigation Bill leaves the Committee of this House. 3559 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Arising out of the answer to the question, I should like to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council whether I am right in assuming that he said that what I have suggested would be done before the Navigation Bill is reported from Committee, or before Part 2 of the Bill is dealt with in Committee? 3559 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST Before the Bill leaves the Committee. 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN It can be recommitted if that should be found necessary 3559 JPC VICTORIA 0 0 BEST, Robert Senator BEST Of course, that is the Object. 3559 paper Senator BEST laid upon the table the following papers :— Trade Marks Act iqo;.—Cancellation of Pro-'visional Regulations (Statutory Rules 1907, No. 50)j and Amendment of Second Schedule of Kegulations.—Statutory Rules 1907, No. 90. Audit Acts 1901 1906.—Transfer in connexion with the Accounts of the Financial Year 1906-7. —Approved- 10th September, 1907. 3559 Bill In Committee (Consideration resumed from 19th September, vide page 3493): First Schedule— Rubber; (period) 15 years; (rate of bounty). 10 per cent, on market value; (maximum amount payable in any one year) 2,000. 3559 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING (Tasmania—Minister of Home Affairs) [10.48].—When progress was reported yesterday, I was addressing myself to this item, and dealing with the arguments advanced to induce the Committee to refrain from granting the bounty. As I then pointed out, the main argument is that Papua, a territory of the Commonwealth, and other islands in the Pacific, in respect of which we have some interest, are preeminently adapted for the production of rubber. I think honorable senators can rest assured that parts of Australia, including Northern Queensland, and especially the Northern Territory, • are also preeminently adapted for the production of this article. I said yesterday that, while we wished nothing but good luck to Papua in its development, the fact that it is preeminently adapted for the production of rubber is no reason why our own people should not turn their attention to the growth of this article, which has a growing demand in the world's market. I referred to the great expansion of the demand for rubber, illustrating my remarks in that connexion by a reference to the imports to Great Britain in 1830, and for different periods , up to date. I mentioned, further, that up to a comparatively recent period the world's supply of this article was dependent mainly upon " wild " rubber. Recently plantation rubber has come into existence, and, although it so far forms but a small portion of the world's total output of rubber, its success has been demonstrated beyond alb possible doubt. When dealing with this aspect of the question I referred to the fact that rubber had been planted with success in what is called the Middle East, and quoted from an article which appeared in the Melbourne Argus in August last, a reference to the opposition, which those who proposed planting rubber in the Middle East had to meet. I point out that the statements and conclusions stated in the article contributed by "L.T.C." to the Melbourne Argus of ioth August have so far as I know met with no hostile criticism. 3559 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The honorable senator does not suppose that we have time to answer every anonymous letter that appears in the newspapers. 3559 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The honorable senator does not suppose that we have time to answer every anonymous letter that appears in the newspapers. 3559 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING am aware that Senator Chataway has not the time to do so, but there are many people deeply interested in these matters who have the inclination and the time. If they have any information on such subjects they are usually very glad to furnish it to the press, and especially if by doing so they can controvert the published statements of some one else. 3560 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN Does the Minister attach very much importance to the letters which have appeared in the press on the subject of the Tariff? 3559 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Letters from anonymous correspondents are daily appearing in the press, but so far as I know the statements in the contributed article to which I refer have remained unchallenged, and I leave honorable senators to appreciate that fact at its proper value. The writer of the article after speaking of the profits of the industry says— These figures may appear to be unduly optimistic, but we are told by those who know that " pioneers of the movement who, when they first began planting Para rubber in the Middle East, a comparatively few years ago, were regarded as cranks or laughed at as visionaries, are being rewarded for their enterprise and foresight with profits which might well make many a successful gold-miner envious." According to a statement in one of the Malayan newspapers, 13,322 lb. of dry rubber was obtained in 1905 from 10,453 s'x to seven year old trees on the West Country Estate, while the same trees have yeilded 16,300 Ib. during six months 1906 Reference is also made to the reasons for the increasing demand for rubber. It is being used for a large variety of purposes, and although chemists during a considerable period have devoted their attention to the discovery of some synthetic substitute their efforts so far have not been crowned with anything in the nature of success. It was suggested some time ago that a synthetic substitute for rubber might be obtained from wheat. 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN The experts in their report affirm that that has been done 3559 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING No, they say that it was claimed that a synthetic substitute had been found, the basis of which was wheat, but it was not a success. There are other natural products for which synthetic substitutes have been sought by chemists, but that fact has not deterred indi viduals from investing their money in the production of those articles. Referring to the price of rubber the writer of the article speaks of the increased demand which would be created by a reduction in the present price. He writes— In view of the facts just cited and the probability of a multiplication of plantations taking place in the near future, a very natural question arises, viz., "Will not the supply largely ex-ceed the demand in a few years?" All the probabilities are in the opposite direction. Conditional on tlie price of rubber remaining as ai present, viz., 5s. 9d. per lb. (Para); it is almost certain that the 10 per cent, annual increase in the consumption which has been maintained for some years past, will be but barely met by the world's supply for at least eight years to come. He gives reasons in support of that opinion, and continues— The managing director of one of the most extensive English rubber manufacturing companies expressed the opinion recently that a drop in the price of rubber to 4s. per lb. would double the demand, and if it went as low as 3s. the demand would be quadrupled. This can be easily understood. He enumerates some of the purposes for which rubber is used, and says— For electrical, dental, motor, cycle, and other purposes rubber must be had at any cost, whilst a fall in price of 20 per cent, would bring about its general use for floor-coverings, foot-walks, and even road-paving. In London, and possibly elsewhere, rubber has been used for pavements with excellent results. After a test of many years of comparatively heavy traffic it has been found that the durability of rubber pavements far exceeds that of wood, though, of course, its cost is greater. Its relative durability more than balances the increased cost. The writer of the article continues— It will be a matter for surprise to many to learn that the rubber road laid in 1881 under the archway leading to Euston station was found to have only worn down to five-eighths of an inch in the thinnest places after 21 years' constant use. Whilst its initial cost was something under three times as much as wood or asphalt, it had a life of 20 years as against a life of four years. Honorable senators must see what an important bearing this has upon the possible demand for rubber in the world's market. It cannot have escaped the attention of any member of the Committee that every year rubber is being more diversely, as well as more extensively used. So far as the use of rubber for paving is concerned there can be no doubt that if it could be supplied at something below the present price of 5s: 9d. per lb. for para rubber, it would be extensively used for this purpose. 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN Where does the honorable senator get that price from? 3559 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING I am quoting from the article to which I have referred. 3558 KUP TASMANIA 0 0 MILLEN, John Senator MILLEN The Minister's official document gives the price as from 4s. to 5s. per lb. 3561 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING The quotation I have already made from the article refers to the price as 5s. 9d. per lb., and the writer says _ that if the price could be brought down to 4s. the demand for rubber, as compared with the existing demand at 5s. 9d. per Ib., would be perhaps quadrupled, whilst if the price could be cut down to something like 3s. the demand would be immensely multiplied. It is easy to understand that if it could be economically used for the purpose of street paving and the flooring of houses, there would be an immense future before the rubber industry. It is possible that it will yet solve one of the difficulties which confronts the City Council of Melbourne and other large cities in Australia. In all the circumstances honorable senators must admit that it is advisable that we should take some steps to secure the cultivation of rubber in the Commonwealth. A few years ago it would have probably been out of the question to submit such a proposal, because the answer would have been that) rubber grew in a wild natural state, and it would be absurd to try to compete against it. But during the last few years experience has shown that plantation rubber can be produced in competition with natural rubber. It is now being grown in increasing quantities. The bounty proposed is not very much, and we believe that it will induce people to enter into the cultivation of this product in the Northern Territory and elsewhere. I know that my honorable friend, Senator Dobson, is very anxious that something should be done for the Northern Territory, but we need not wait for the formal acquisition of the Territory by the Commonwealth. It is already part and parcel of the Commonwealth, and if any rubber is grown in the Northern Territory no matter whether the agreement that has been tentatively entered into is adopted by Parliament or not, the growers will be eligible for the bounty 3561 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON I believe that land cannot be taken up there now. 3561 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Land has already been taken up. and probably much of it could be devoted to rubber cultivation. I understand that there are already some natural rubber trees in the Northern Territory, but they are not so good as the trees that grow in other parts of the world, notably in South America. We can well hold out this little encouragement to those who turn their attention to the growth of rubber, either in the Northern Territory or in any other part of Australia. Although it may be grown in Papua as well, we shall have'the satisfaction of knowing that our own people in Australia are doing what they can to make the industry a success. In Papua rubber cultivation, as we all recognise, will largely depend upon native laoour. The labour there is somewhat precarious, and if we have to depend entirely upon it nothing may be done in the growth of rubber for many years to come. If rubber is grown in Papua at all, it will be grown largely by white labour; and both Papuan and Australian growers will assist in supplying the world's market. I draw attention to another article which was published on the 9th July, in the Melbourne Age, on the same subject. It states that— It is estimated that since 1901 the area under rubber in Ceylon has increased from 2,500 acres to 120,000 acres to-day. The article also states— As there has been a considerable development of a similar character in the Malay States and adjacent islands. A few authorities hold that there is some risk of over-production, taking into consideration the supplies of wild rubber available in South and Central America. On the other hand, the uses to which rubber can be applied are so multiplying yearly that other authorities think that there will be a profitable demand for all the rubber produced for many years to come. It says likewise— Already rubber is coming into favour for paving purposes, and the expansion of its use for tyres minimises any risk of over-production. Recognising what an important product rubber is going to be in the 'future if we have any land in Australia suitable for its production, our people should be encouraged to devote their attention to it. They are not likely to give their attention to rubber cultivation without the stimulus of a bounty. 3561 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON Because they do not believe in the facts which the Minister has cited. 3561 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING There is a disposition, as my honorable friend knows—. because he is an apostle of it—on the part of some people not to move out of old ruts. People who have been growing wheat for years, and find themselves severely affected by competition from others who can grow it much more profitably, often refuse to turn their attention to oats or any other product, simply because their fathers, and their grandfathers before them, grew wheat. My honorable friend knows as many instances of that disposition as I do, and I know a good many. Many people are indisposed to turn to the production of anything that is new, unless they see the prospect of an immediate return, and unless all risk of loss is eliminated. Those who enter into rubber production have to wait for six or seven years before they begin to extract the latex from the trees. People who have not command of a considerable amount of capital would not be likely to turn their attention to it without the stimulus of a bounty, lest they should lose the immediate profit, small though it may be, from some other kind of production with which they have been associated for years. 3562 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3562 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON (Tasmania) [11.9].— I am getting heartily sick of this Bounties Bill, and am tired of listening to the same sort of argument in favour of every item. 3562 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY What about those honorable senators who have to listen? 3562 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON he honorable senator need not listen unless he likes. There is the door. 3562 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH Sheer weariness prevents some of us even from walking so far. 3562 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON My honorable friend, Senator Keating, tells me that I know of some farmers who go on planting the same crops year after year, and who will not make a change unless they see a prospect of a large profit. Has not the honorable senator been devoting himself for the last half-hour to showing how large the profit from the cultivation of rubber is likely to be? H'e tells us that i f we have land and climate suitable for the growth of the rubber tree, rubber is a most profitable thing to produce. But there is much virtue in an "if." My honorable friend has turned away from the memorandum of the experts just when we have reached one or two items regarding which I should have liked him to devote some attention to it. Why did he not tell" us what the experts had to say about rubber? They say, for instance— That this valuable tree will thrive in our northern latitudes is well known, although it is more than probable that New Guinea will prove a better home for it. They also tell us that it has been grown at a State nursery in Queensland— The Director of the State Nursery at Kanerunga,- Cairns, has made very successful experiments with para rubber, and has distributed many plants and seeds in the northern portion of the State. But these will take time to come to the tapping stage. We do not therefore know yet whether the product of the trees will be the stuff that is wanted. How, therefore, can we beliteVe in the practicability orHow can we have a successful experiment, unless we test the value of the product and know whether it is of the right quality? But the Government are very anxious to. pose before the Commonwealth as a great protectionist Ministry. They are not content with their iniquitous Tariff, but must also submit an iniquitous Bounties Bill tosupport it. I should like to know whether any attempt has been made in any part of the Commonwealth to ascertain whether we have suitable soil and climate for the production of rubber. The whole thing is absolutely new. ' We ought to wait until the experiments have been concluded before we think of granting a bounty. If we adopt the experts' opinion, we ought undoubtedly to strike out the item. My honorable friend says that, notwithstanding that rubber can be grown in Papua, we ought to encourage our own people to grow it in- Australia. But we now have the Papuan- Territory on our hands, and we know that it is a most difficult task to make a success of it, owing to the scarcity of labour. Mr; Staniforth Smith is devoting himself to this subject. We all remember the admirable speeches which he made about developing industries in Papua while he was a member of the Sennte. He is now applying his great energies to making a success of rubber-growing, and why should we endeavour to make his task more difficult? We are actually going to spend -£30,000 to induce men to compete in the Commonwealth against our brothers in Papua. In that country, there is an enormous amount of native labour which is cheap, and there is suitable land for rubber cultivation. 3562 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH How can the labour be called cheap if the men will not work? 3562 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON DOBSON.—I am sorry to hear Senator Trenwith confirm Senator Keatinrr's pessimistic view that the 500,000 natives in Papua are useless. They are of good physique, intelligent, and splendid fighters. Mr. Staniforth Smith is going to train them as policemen and agriculturists. There may be some kink in their nature, but I have yet to learn that it is impossible to make agricultural labourers of them. Of course, I know what Senator Trenwith means, and I admit that I would radier pay a rood man ios. a day than a bad one 7s. or 8s.; but that argument does not apply to Papuan labour. I affirm that the labour of Papua is cheap. Wherever there are black men capable of working—and these are—the labour must be cheap compared with labour in the Commonwealth.' Considering Papua as indirectly part of the Commonwealth, and dealing with the whole Commonwealth as one, where is the best place to attempt to start this industry ? There is no spot in the Commonwealth as good as Papua for growing rubber. Papua is absolutely suitable for it, and Australia is not; while in Papua there is an abundance of cheap . labour. All that we ask is that a couple of items out of the whole seventeen should be kept back for the Northern Territory, and one left for Papua. We should not compete with our own people. Nobody could imagine the business-like Germans trying to grow a product in one of their Colonies, and at the same time giving a bounty to develop the same industry in the home country. Can anybody understand such folly? If it was our own money, would any one of us dare to spend a penny on such a Droject? The whole thing is monstrous. I wish honorable senators opposite would bear in mind the fact that we are trustees for the people's monev. They ought to have such facts before them, before they vote away public money, as would induce them to put their own money into the scheme. If every item in the -Bill was tested on that common- sense basis, not one of them would pass. The Minister read at some length letters which appeared in the Argus, and referred also to one that appeared in the Age. I understand that they were published early in July, at the time when Mr. Staniforth Smith was making) efforts to spread abroad the idea that Papua was exceedingly well suited for growing rubber, and pointing out that the pronts, i f the industry could be made a success, would be enormous. At that time about £10,000 had been sent from Victoria to Papua for investment in the industry, and, of course, all the letters that appeared at the time were favorable to the scheme. It reminds me of the fact that any one with plenty of go and talk and pluck can make out a case for a railway to anywhere. 3563 Bounties [20 September 1907] Bill 3563 KPE TASMANIA 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING If the honorable senator had listened- to me, he would have seen that the articles I quoted stressed the capabilities of Queensland and the Northern Territory, and not of Papua, for growing rubber. 3563 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON It is all part of the same thing. We know perfectly well that Papua is more suitable, because the expert evidence is that a combination of elevation, moisture, and temperature are needed. 3563 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH What elevation have they at Ceylon? 3563 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON Ceylon is a most hilly place. Growing rubber in anv part of the Commonwealth is absolutely an experiment, and the experiment ought to precede the giving of a bounty. 3563 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY (Victoria) [11.22]. —The fullest encouragement should be given to the growing of rubber in the Commonwealth. 3563 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Edward Senator LYNCH It is only throwing money away. 3563 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Then nobody will be worse off than myself. Australia is essentially a protectionist nation, and a system of bounties is part of the system of protection. We should encourage by every means those industries which are natural to our country. Senator Keating produced expert evidence that rubber can be grown successfully in Northern Queensland and the Northern Territory. I find from the Customs returns that the importations into the Commonwealth last year amounted to ,£338,700, made up of £167,439 worth of manufactures, and £161,261 of crude rubber. 3563 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Would that be necessarily crude? 3563 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Not necessarily, but probably the greater portion qf it was. 3559 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The experts in their report say that there are no records available. 3563 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY am informed, although not officially, that probably the £161,261 worth is rubber for manufacturing purposes. The fact that rubber and rubber goods to the value of £338J7P° were imported last j'ear into the Commonwealth shows that, rubber is extensively utilized here. Senator Dobson points out that certain experts are unanimous that Papua.-.is highly suitable for the cultivation of rubber. It is remarkable that the honorable senator accepts the opinion of the experts who reported on Papua, but declines to attach any weight to the opinions of the other experts who were appointed by the Government to report to Parliament about rubber and other items in this schedule. After all, as shown by the report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the affairs of Papua, and by Mr. Staniforth Smith's recent handbook, experts are at variance with regard to the rubber industry. The Commission gave an estimate, compiled on the figures supplied by a practical planter, of the cost of planting and maintaining a rubber plantation of 250 acres in Papua. They estimate the cost of felling and clearing at .£250. Mr. Smith, in his recent handbook, gives an estimate of .£375 for the same work. The Commission estimate the cost of living at ,£30, Mr. Smith at £M 10s. 3564 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3564 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN And both are authorities? 3564 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I regard Mr. Smith as a better authority than some of the gentlemen who were on the Commission, because he has given considerable time, attention, and study to the question of tropical agriculture. 3564 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN He would not know the cost of clearing an acre of ground if he saw it. 3564 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I think he would. He made two visits to Papua and one to parts of India. He made a close study of the questions on which he reports in his handbook. The Commission's and Mr. Smith's estimates continue as follow— Commission. Mr. Smith. Nurseries ... ... £10 ... £50 o o Seed ... ... ... I0 ... y. 10 0 Planting ... ... J/ Roads and drains House for owner or superintendent Huts for natives Tools ... Medicine chest ... Contingencies ... Including the items I gave first, the total estimate of the Commission is ^£710, and that of Mr. Smith, which comprises other expenses, totals .£2,083 15s. Mr. Smith ?dds £i,°oo for the upkeep for five years, including labour, at £600 a year, making a total of £5,083 15s. He adds—. If the area of plantation were doubled the total cost would be £8,276 ios., or £16 i0S. per acre up to the time of tapping, as items 9 and those are the items for supervision and house for superintendent— would not be increased, while the upkeep would only be enhanced by 50 per cent. He goes on to say— By skilful management catch crops between the trees might produce sufficient revenue, after the first two'or three years, to defray the cost of upkeep, reducing the capital outlay on a rubber plantation of 500 acres, up to time of tap-Ping> to £5>567> or £11 2s. 9d. per acre. Healthy well grown trees should each average 2 lbs. of rubber annually, which, at the-present price (5s. per lb.), would yield a gross income from 500 acres of £21,500, or over 250 per cent, per annum on the outlay, assuming that no catch crops were grown. Even if rubber dropped to 2s. per lb., the gross income would be over 100 per cent, per annum. 3564 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN It is obvious that he has gone wrong in his arithmetic. 3564 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I have not time to go into that matter. 3564 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN If it is going to cost £16 ios. per acre to put the land under cultivation, and if each tree is going to yield 2 lbs. of rubber per year, and rubber is worth 5s. per pound, it is not a matter of 100 per cent., but of 1,000 per cent. 3564 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I will not argue that point with the honorable senator, because figures can be made to prove anything. The facts are that there is an increasing demand for rubber in every part of the world to-day, and that there is a tendency for the price of the article to go even higher than it has been within the last few months. Considering all the circumstances, I should say that the Committee ought not to hesitate to grant an annual bounty of .£2,000 for a period of fifteen years to encourage this industry. 3564 KVD TASMANIA 0 0 MULCAHY, Edward Senator MULCAHY On top of a 250 per cent, return. 3564 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The honorable senator know quite well that in his report Mr. Staniforth Smith is dealing with Papua, where labour is much cheaper than it is in any part of the Commonwealth. While it is true that it is difficult to get native labour in Papua, still the probability is that in the course of time, by kind treatment, the natives may be induced to work to the satisfaction of their employers. That experiment is being tried. I am not so much concerned about whether native labour in Papua will be satisfactory to the growers of rubber as I am about providing, as soon as possible, additional avenues of employment for the people of the Commonwealth. It is with a view to assist in-opening up new avenues of employment, and to attract population to Australia, that I think every item in the schedule is justifiable. I very much regret that the bounty for rubber is not larger than it is. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER The honorable senator can propose an increase of the amount. 3565 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3565 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY After yesterday's discussion, and the vote I gave in regard to rice, I am not disposed to move a request for an increase. It may be that we have the power, but having given a vote yesterday for what I considered to be the right course in connexion with rice, I do not intend to move for an increase in the case of this item. I hope that the Committee will give a stimulus to the industry, which, in my opinion, is deserving of every encouragement. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER (Queensland) [rT.37].—The report of the Government experts on rubber is of such a peculiar character that I feel tempted to read it, but I shall spare the Committee, because it has been read in sections. This debate, in conjunction with the reports on this subject, reminds me very much of an incident of my school days. In the district near the school some wild berries used to grow. They had a rather acrid taste. Three or four of us were anxious to find out whether the berries might not be a sort of food. Others suggested that the berries had the reputation of being a dangerous kind of food, and that they might be poisonous. One infant philosopher said, ".We can easily settle that. We will try the berries on the dog, and if it does not harm the dog probably they will be all right." The proposition before the Committee is very much like such an experiment on the part of the Government. Practically, they say, " We do not know whether the bounty will do good. It can do harm, inasmuch as the money may be wasted, but we will try an experiment on the dog." I do not know that- that is a very wise course to pursue; certainly it is not economical.. I notice that Senator Findley, the Ministers, and others, who are ready to support every item in the schedule, are practically saying, "Let us try an experiment on tlie dog first." They plead that it will not cost much, and if the dog dies 3565 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN It is somebody else's dog, anyhow. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Yes. I can compliment the Minister and his supporters upon the very philosophical way in which they contemplate the making of an experiment on the dog. 3565 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The honorable senator is very unsympathetic towards an effort which is being made to establish the rubber industry in his State. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I am not aware that any effort of the kind is being made. I have looked through the various agricultural reports from the State, and I find that not one ounce of rubber has been produced there. Judging from the report of the Government experts, if there is one State in Australia which is favorable for the growth of rubber, probably it is Queensland. It comes next to Papua or the Northern Territory, but I do not know that its' people clamour for a raid to be made upon their pockets to promote the rubber industry. During the general election, I did not hear a reference made to the subject throughout the State. Our political opponents placarded the whole of the State with the most lavish promises of the enormous sums whicli, if they were returned, they would ask this Parliament to devote to the promotion of their agricultural industries. Fortunately, that fly did not catch. Although the promotion of agricultural industries was paraded before the electors, and although I think that a great many of them knew just as well as the experts—and the candidates—that, so far as climate and soil were concerned, rubber might be grown in some parts of the State, not a single demand was made during the campaign for a penny of public money to be put into the rubber industrj?. I think it is a fair inference that the people were of opinion that it was more "or less of a farce to propose that they should be raided in order to support an industry which no one demanded, and which, according to the report of the experts, would probably result in a howling failure. 3565 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY (Queensland) [11.43]-—I do not know that there is any truth in the statement of Senator St. Ledger that during the general election Queensland was placarded from one end to the other with certain promises. I was in Queensland during the campaign, but I do not remember any statement having been, made by his political opponents that, if returned, they would get large sums of public mone\ expended in the various districts upon the promotion of tropical agriculture. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER It was on the manifesto of the honorable senator's leader. 3566 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY We hear very many statements from the honorable senator. It takes him nearly all his time to contradict his own statements. I do not see how he can expect others to believe him. During this debate, it has been pointed out that if there is one State in the Union which would benefit if the industry were established, it is Queensland. Senator St. Ledger has made that claim; consequently, in his opinion, Queensland is the dog. More experiments have been made, and more education has been imparted, on this subject, in that State than, in any other part of Australia. I feel quite satisfied that Senator St. Ledger does not know a great deal about the State which he represents. It has been urged by some honorable senators that a certain amount of agricultural education should be given before we attempted to sanction these bounties. For many years, education in tropical agriculture has been given in Queensland. At the Kamerunga State Farm, just outside Cairns, rubber trees have been planted, and have been in process of growth for a considerable time. There is not only a rubber plantation on the farm, but the authorities are distributing thousands of plants to people in Queensland, and also to people in Papua and in some of the islands in the Pacific. It is only quite recently that those in charge at Kamerunga have been able to overtake the demand for plants which has been made bpon the Agricultural Department. Information is given -regarding the cultivation of the plant, and also as to the area in Queensland which is suitable for its growth. 3566 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER t is extraordinary that the people have never demanded a bounty. 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY It is not extraordinary that Senator St. Ledger has never heard of these things. The fact remains that a very large number of other people have heard of them, and some persons have cleared .ground and planted rubber trees. I have no doubt that up to the present Senator St. Ledger has never heard anything about it. 3566 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER What I said was that the people have never asked for a bounty. 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY There are many products on which people do not ask for bounties, but when the honorable senator found that people were asking for a bounty on cotton, he was not prepared to oppose the grant of a bountv on that article. 3566 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Yes, the honorable senator did oppose it. 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The honorable senator opposed everything in the Bill, at the commencement, but when he learned that the granting of a bounty for cotton might Ibe the means of doing a considerable amount of good, he was not prepared to carry his opposition to that item any further. Senator Dobson has.asked whether any experiments in rubber cultivation have been made, and whether .the Minister can give the Committee any assurance as to the adaptability of portions of Australia for the cultivation of this article, and I can inform him that in the Queensland Agricultural Journal, for September of this year, full information is given as to the localities and areas of land in Queensland that are suitable for the cultivation of rubber. 3566 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON On what evidence are the statements made? 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY On the evidence of the expert in tropical agriculture who has charge of the State farm at Kamerunga, where rubber trees are being propagated, and where there are some trees which have arrived at maturity, and have been tapped for the rubber. 3566 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON What I read showed that the trees had not been tapped. 3566 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I do not know what the honorable senator has read or what he wants, but it is evident that any stick is good enough to beat a dog with. During the consideration of the Bill, Senator Dobson has asked the Minister not to refer to the reports of the experts, because their statements were "all rubbish," but on this item the honorable senator says, " I wish the Minister would read the reports of the experts." The writer of the article from which I am quoting refers to the conditions requisite for the cultivation of Para rubber, and deals with the quality of soil, the necessary rainfall, and the suitable latitude. He writes— In obtaining these conditions, the area more especially suitable for Para rubber in Queensland will be enclosed within an imaginary line drawn to include the Burdekin lands down by the junction of that river with the Suttor River' to the southward of North Queensland, following the course of this river northward into the valley of the Herbert, thence mounting the ranges (but to an elevation not exceeding r,50o to 2,ooo- feet, or where frost is met with) round to Oaklands on the Cairns-Atherton railway, and along the ranges northward to Princess Charlotte Bay. This must not be taken as a hard and fast line, however, for the area thus roughly indicated has perforce to include some small areas that have either insufficient rainfall, are too cold, or on which the soil is too poor and metalliferous for any agricultural operations. Generally speaking, the most suitable localities are in the valleys of out northern rivers, from the mouth of the Burdekin in the south to the Normanby in the north a distance of some 4,000 miles, including eighteen more or less important rivers, and roughly some 20,00 square miles of country. 3567 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3567 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Does he give the rainfall? 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY Does the honorable senator believe that this man, who is an official of the Queensland Department of Agriculture, is such a fool that he does not know the rainfall of the districts which he describes in the reports which are submitted to Parliament? Does the honorable senator mean to insinuate that this State servant, paid and to give information to the public, is trying, by false representations, to induce people to enter into tropical industries? 3567 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN He would not be the first public servant who had honestly made a mistake 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY But this officer does not give his own estimates of rainfall. He quotes the statistics supplied by other State Departments. 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY He further writes Northward of this, and for that matter along the western coast of the North Queensland Peninsular, and into the Gulf of Carpentaria, localities with suitable rainfall, soil, temperature and rainfall may here and there be found, and southward of this most southernmost point mentioned isolated localities may also be found where, the climate being mild and the situation protected, Para rubber will grow. He refers to districts much further south where it is possible to find small patches of country complying with the description he gives; but points out that it is possible that plantations in those districts might be affected by frost. He goes into the whole question of soils, aspect, lay of land methods of propagations, planting, growth of the plants and cultivation, and also production and returns. Attached to the article there is a photograph of the rubber plantation established at Kamerunga. The plantation there is progressing, and he believes that it will give a considerable return, although so far only a few trees have sufficiently matured to warrent their being tapped a few times. I am given to understand that other people have gone into the industry, but it must not be forgotten that it requires a considerable amount of capital to establish a rubber plantation.The average settler, who must look for a return from his land with twelve or eighteen months, is unable to embark in this industry, from which a return cannot be expected for about six years. If, however, we pass this item, an inducement will be offered to people to enter upon the industry, because the will know that they will receive some assistance form the Government when they have produced the rubber. 3567 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Would the honourable senator recommend any man to put £4,000 or £5,000 into the rubber industry in Queensland? 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I do not know that men usually take up these industries on the recommendation of others. 3567 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Exactly. "Try it on the dog" 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY If, in the opinion of Senator St Ledger, Queensland is the dog, I cannot compliment him upon his illustration. 3567 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN At the same time, the honourable senator has not answered the question. 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY cannot answer the question. Members of the profession to which Senator St. Ledger belongs are accustomed to advise people that they have a case, though it is ten chances, to one that they have no case, and the honorable senator is presuming that I would advise some one to go into tan industry in which he might lose his money. It is not my business to give advice of that kind, but I believe that if the Government offer an inducement to people to embark upon this industry, those proposing to do so will make all the inquiries necessary, and if they are satisfied, will take up the work, exercising their own intelligence, and knowing that if they make a success of it they can look for some assistance in the for of a bounty. It is useless to ask a memeber of Parliament whether he would advise any to embark in an industry concerning which he may have no personal knowledgem and must depend on the information supplied by public officers appointed for the purpose. I do not think there is very much in thestatements we hear as to the enormous fortunes made in some industries. Evidence is given that in certain places, probably where there is any amount of cheap labour available, men have established industries from which they have derived large returns. In one of the articles on rubber, it is stated that in Borneo some people ave making as much as 93 per cent, profit on the money they have invested in the industry. They have an unlimited supply of cheap labour. Of course, I cannot say that any person who attempts to establish the rubber industry in North Queensland will earn 90 per cent, on his capital, but I do say that if people with sufficient capital, and • who 'can afford to remain out of their money for a time, will invest in the industry, they are likely to get a fair return; and that is all that any reasonable person asks. This is an industry that cannot be wiped out again the moment the bounty ceases. It takes a number of vears before rubber trees reach maturity, and if then the bounty were to cease the trees would go on bearing. There is certainly no danger of their being chopped down. It is a good thing for the Government to offer induce-' ments to people to try experiments in such directions. One of the principal reasons urged against the bounty is that rubber will be grown in Papua, and that we ought to leave the matter to that Territory. A number of articles have been published in the Queensland Agricultural Journal, showing that the demand for rubber is certainly increasing, and that new channels for its utilization are being opened. That seems to indicate that, having the soil, the temperature, and the rainfall, we can establish an industry in Australia that will, at all events, be sufficient to supply our own needs. 3568 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3568 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH Which are considerable. 3568 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The figures quoted by Senator Findley show that we import over £300>00° worth of rubber and rubber goods per annum into the Commonwealth. The trade and Customs statistics also show that the Commonwealth manufactures and exports nearly J£I 1,000 worth of manufactured rubber goods. In the last vear fot which we ha.ve statistics we exported ,£1.900 worth to Papua, and over ,-£2,000 worth to the Argentine Republic. If the argument is to have force that we are not to give anv assistance to an industry in Australia because we ought to leave' the production of the article in question to Papua, what form of tropical agriculture shall we "be able to encourage ? 3567 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER That rather misrepresents our argument, which was that it is a waste of money, with our dear labour, to try to compete against the cheap labour of Papua. 3568 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY That was always the argument advanced in Queensland in favour of the employment of the kanakas. The Pacific Islander was first employed in that State to do shepherding. That was years before he was emploj'ed in the sugar industry. It is only because the Commonwealth decided to deal firmly with the black labour question that the kanaka has at length been expelled. 3559 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY And the rest of Australia is growling about having to pay for it! 3568 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I do not think there has been any growling. 3568 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY Honorable senators are always saying to the Queensland representatives, "What about your sugar bounty?" 3568 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY And why? Because some Queensland representatives are -continually objecting to Government assistance being granted to any. industries in Australia, other than those which are conducted in their State. I am sorry to say that some of my fellow senators from Queensland are continually opposing proposals to grant assistance to other-industries except those which are confined to Queensland. 3568 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The sugar bounty was objected to before some of us came into tbe Senate. 3568 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY few objected, but they were all on the side on which the honorable senator sits. The Royal Commission on British New Guinea, in their report, mention practically all the items affecting tropical agriculture included in this schedule, as being capable of production in Papua. They mention copra, rubber, sugar, coffee, tobacco and sisal hemp. Honorable senators opposite did not object to monev ibeing thrown away by the granting of a bounty for sisal hemp. Yet it can be grown easier in Papua than in the Commonwealth. 3568 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY I thought the honorable senator said that we were opposing all the items?. 3569 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3569 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The honorable senator opposed a number, of bounties on products that can be grown in other parts of Australia than Queensland. 3569 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY voted against one only, and that affected the whole of Australia. I intend to look at these matters from a broader stand-point than that of my own State only. I shall not vote for items simply because they concern Queensland. If I consider that any bounty .will assist in the establishment of industries in any part of Australia, I shall vote for it, even though my own State may not be affected. 3569 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Why did not the honorable senator vote for mohair? 3569 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY That was the only item against which I voted, and it affected all Australia. But the honorable senator who interjects, and those associated with him, vote against every item in the Bill. 'He would have killed the measure at the second-reading stage if he had had his way. The Queensland experts, who are Government servants engaged in trying experiments for the benefit of the people of the State, point out that we have an area of country which, in respect of soil, rainfall, and other natural conditions, is suitable for the growth of rubber. The only valid objection that has so far been raised is on the ground of cost. The argument of those who make that objection is that, because there is black labour in Papua, which can be obtained in any quantities, we ought not to encourage- the growth of rubber in the Commonwealth by white labour. 3569 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN (New South Wales) [12.14].—I hardly think that Senator Turley has put his case in a way that does justice to his own public spirit. If I understand his argument, it is that he claims some credit for having voted for every bounty proposed by this Bill which would benefit his own State, whilst he voted against the one item in the schedule which would make a bountv operative all over Australia. Having known the honorable senator for some time, I decline to believe that he would, on reconsideration, re-affirm that he voted against mohair because the benefit of the bounty would be general, and that his generosity is confined absolutely to the people of his own State. With, regard to rubber, I must say that I am extremely disappointed at the attitude taken up by those who believe in the principle of bounties. I should have thought that if there was one item as to which a bounty might be paid—though I do not believe in the principle of bounties at all—if there wa's one which could be defended—it was that for the encouragement of rubber-growing. But when I say that, I am bound to inquire whether rubber itself is entitled to a bounty. I look for information, and am bombarded from all sides of the Chamber with the evidence of experts. Senator Turley became in deadly earnest when laying great stress on the authority which we should attach to the declarations of public servalits. I have a recollection of some rather lively criticisms directed to public servants even by Senator Turley 3569 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY In what connexion? 3569 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN On the Public Service Act. 3569 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I did not have a word to say in connexion with it. 3569 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN It was during the discussion which took place here not on the Act itself, but on the administration of the Act, some two or three years ago. The fact . is that public servants appear to be excellent authorities when they say something that suits our own case, but are to be contemptuously dismissed if their opinion does not happen to square with our own. We have first of all the experts' report, which Senator Symon referred to as our Bible. It gives us one statement. Next, Senator .Findley quotes, from the report of the Royal Commission on Papua, certain statements and figures, and then, out of his great consideration for the Committee, immediately proceeds to demolish them bv quoting from another expert, Mr. Staniforth Smith. Thus three sets of expert opinions are put before us, each contradicting the other. In what position are we to arrive at a common-sense or business-like conclusion? I mention this to show how ill-equipped the Committee are to deal with and determine this matter with the scant ancl contradictory information before us. • It is a matter of great regret that those who believe in the bounties system did not make an effort to prevail on the Government, who would have listened more readily to- suggestions from their side than from this. f> concentrate the money on a few items of great promise. In this case, the small amount offered will be utterly futile. If it is correct, as stated in the experts' report, that an acre of rubber trees, having reached the tapping age, will yield an income of jf.zoo, it follows that the total bounty which we are providing will call into existence no more than 100 acres of rubber trees. 3570 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3570 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The honorable senator voted against the increase which was proposed yesterday in another item. 3570 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Of course I did. I am not saying that I will support an increase in this case, but if I had the alternative of supporting a bounty large enough to call an industry into existence, or one which would be frittered away, I should be inclined to vote for the larger sum. Senator Turley looked surprised at my statement that the total area which the proposed bounty, if effective, will bring under cultivation, is 100 acres, but I base that calculation on this wonderful document, prepared by these public servants, with their lofty ideals and limitless attainments 3570 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY Is there no possibility of increasing the amount before the fifteen years' period expires? 3570 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Of course there will be a possibility of increasing it, but a much more business-like course would have been followed if those who favour bounties had concentrated their efforts on a few articles, which, in my opinion, like this one, have more promise because more profit in them. We could have done more good by offering a substantial bounty, which might have had some effect. I am not able to conceive that any man, who refrains to-day from going into an industry which, he is told, will rrive him a gross return of £200 per acre, will go into it if we add on to that return a miserable bounty of 10 per cent. If those paper profits are there, and men refrain from taking.up the industry, to-day for the reasons stated by Senator Turley— the long period which must elapse before a return is obtained, and the fact that there is an element of risk, seeing that it is in the nature of an experiment—they are not likely to take it up for the sake of this paltry inducement. 3570 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I did not say that I believe in all those paper profits. 3570 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN The honorable senator had a great deal to say in laudation of the authors of that document. As I think that possibly this is an industry which has some future in Australia^ and do not consider, in view of the world's demand for rubber, that Australia and Papua would come into competition, I look a little less unkindly upon this item than upon others, but the amount which it is proposed . to spend appears to be totally insufficient to be effective. The initial outlay required is too great, and the period that must elapse before any income can be obtained is too long. Any one who would go into the industry with a bounty would go into it without. 3570 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY (Queensland) [12.23].—I desire to correct a statement made by Senator Millen. The honorable senator asserted that I had made a statement that I voted against the item " Mohair," because it applied to all Australia,-and voted for other items because they applied to Queensland only. That is not so 3570 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN I knew that the honorable senator misstated himself. 3570 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I supported bounties for New Zealand flax, flax and hemp, and other articles, which I knew perfectly well would flourish in other parts of Australia, more than in Queensland. 3570 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART (Queensland) [12.25].—I am surprised at the amount of opposition which has been shown to this item, more particularly by senators representing Queensland. • The reason they-give for their opposition is most extraordinary. They appear to think that because rubber can be grown profitably in Papua no encouragement should be given for its production in Australia. I was always under the impression that, while Papua is under our control, our first duty is to the Commonwealth, and our first business to develop the resources of the Continent. There is no doubt that the rubber industrv is extending with great rapidity. I believe "that the demand for rubber will soon be verv much greater than it is now. The next question to consider is whether rubber can be "grown in Australia. There is r.o doubt that we can grow rubber. 3570 KSH TASMANIA 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE And lose money on it. 3570 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART We have these prophets of evil always with us. No matter .how often you bowl them out, they come up smiling again and again. The earlv squatters, when thev were deprived of convict labour, said that the industry would go to rack and ruin. 3571 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3571 KSH TASMANIA 0 0 MACFARLANE, James Senator MACFARLANE Very large sums have been lost in rubber cultivation in •Queensland. 3571 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART Large sums have been lost in squatting, mining, and sugar growing, and some people even lose money by going into Parliament. I do not profess to be an expert on rubber. I have no extreme confidence in experts, but we must take their advice upon occasions and act upon it. An article upon rubber planting appeared in April, 1900, in the Queensland Agricultural Journal, to the following effect— Certain portions of Queensland appear to possess a soil, climate, and timber growth identical, except in the kinds of timber, with the conditions found on the Atlantic or Gulf sides of Mexico. This zone includes portions of the States of Vera Cruz, Oaxaca, Chiapas, and Tabasco. Here the temperature ranges in summer from 73 deg. to q6 deg. F., and in winter from 55 deg. to 86 deg. The rainfall varies from 95 to 130 inches per annum. It is under these conditions'that the variety of rubber, Cas-tilloa clastica flourishes best. If we consider the climatic conditions of the districts around Cairns, Geraldton, and Cardwell we shall find that in rainfall, temperature, soil, and elevation they compare most favorably with the conditions which obtain on the Atlantic side of Mexico. At Geraldton the mean annual rainfall is 148.80 inches; the rainfall during 1898 reached 139.94 inches, the number of wet days being 146. At Cairns the mean annual rainfall is 98.34, and at Cardwell 87.54, with 131 and 106 rainy days respectively. The summer heat on the Johnstone River varies from 85 to 95 degrees Fahr. at midday in the shade; the winter temperature ranges from 70 to 80 degrees Fahr. At 10 p.m. the summer range is from 70 to So' degrees Fahr., and the winter temperature at the same hour averages from 40 to 60 degrees Fahr. The jungle consist of a dense mass of lawyer canes, bamboos, bananas, climbing raspberries, vines, with an occasional clump of trees. The soil is of the very richest description, having a depth of from 10 to 20 feet of the same character as that on the surface. Vast stretches of this fertile land are still unalienated. Standing on-the summit of a hill, one looks over a vast expanse of level country stretching away in all directions and covered with the primeval scrub. In the upper reaches of the south branch of the river, where a waterway has been cut through the volcanic soil by the water, a depth of even 100 feet of soil identical with that on the surface is visible. 3571 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Is it still Crown land ? 3571 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART I suppose that a very considerable area of if is still Crown land. Of course, the area is not so large as it was when the article was written. Here, then, we have the ideal _ country for the growth of the rubber tree. It will be observed that the clearing of these scrubs is not nearly such a formidable undertaking as the work in the southern scrubs, where the timber is of great size and growing closely together. It would then appear that the best way in which to plant the rubber trees would be to 'clear lanes through the scrub 'in which the planting could be carried out. There has, however, been considerable controversy as to the advisability of planting in the shade or in the sun. As to soils, we have already pointed out that the rich scrub soils are best suited to the rubber tree; but good trees can be met with growing in gravelly clays, although none are found in ill-drained clay soils or swamps. In the case .of trees growing in the open, 250 to 300 trees per acre meet Mr. Harvey's idea for permanent growth, though in the beginning the tre.es are grown close, about 4 to 6 feet apart, to' shade the ground and keep the weeds down. Then in the second, third, and fourth vears thinning out is done, and a little rubber obtained' from trees 5 to 10 feet high, which may be destroved to allow room for the development of the permanent trees. I think that what I have read from the article proves clearly that in Queensland we have the soil and the climate. The industry is a rapidly expanding one. The demand is likely to be very much greater twenty, or even fifty, years hence than it is to-day, so that there need be no fear of plantations being established and no demand being ultimately found for the commodity. With regard to the time which it takes before a plantation gives a return, the article says— Some writers say that five years is sufficient time to wait before commencing to tap, whilst others recommend seven or eight. No doubt excessive draining of sap before the trees attain size and strength would be injurious, but, as there appears to be every probability of a long era of high prices, careful calculations show that a good profit can be made on a plantation which is made to begin yielding in five years, provided the average yield for the next five years is 1 lb. per tree,'even if the trees should be exhausted by that time. With 300 trees to the acre, yielding 1 Ib. each at 40 cents (gold) per lb. as the local selling value, the return for five crop years would be $600 per acre, with a necessary investment not above $80. Much higher figures, for both yield and prices, are calculated on by most planters, but so far as Mr. Harvey is concerned, if this estimate were cut in half by actual results, the reward for time and money spent would probably exceed in profit any other known agricultural enterprise. Now, there are many planters in the North who cultivate the richest of Australian land on the banks of the rivers before mentioned. With an expenditure of a fraction of their time they might sow a few hundred seed -of the Castilloa elastica both in the open and in the partly cleared scrub. If the trial prove successful, they would have provided a splendid asset for themselves and their posterity. If it failed, they would still have done good service by showing that rubber cultivation in North Queensland could not be carried out with any hope of success. It must be evident to any one who cares to give the smallest attention to the matter that in portions of Australia we have country which is admirably suited for the. production of rubber. Some honorable senators have asked the question, "If it is such a profitable industry why have men not gone into it without the stimulus of a bounty?" Any one who has paid the slightest attention to the development of Australian industry need have no difficulty in answering that question. He ought to know quite well that the Australian farmer is the most conservative individual, that it is the most difficult task in the world to jog or jostle him out of a particular rut, that he must be either driven out by absolute poverty or tempted out by the prospect of a rich reward. That is m) experience of the average Australian farmer. 3572 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3572 KAH NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 WALKER, JAMES Senator Walker hese conservative men generally support the honorable senator's side in politics. 3572 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART I do not trouble very much' who supports me so long as I get here. I suppose that the vote of a conservative counts one just as the vote of a most rabid radical would do. In any case, we are making an attempt to encourage the establishment of new industries.- Let us not be dismayed by the prospect of failure. If that prospect had influenced the men who lived in Australia 50 or 100 years ago, we should not be discussing these matters in this palatial building. I, with others, think that the Government might very well have devoted a much larger sum to the encouragement of the rubber industry than it has done. But I am not going to reject this-proposal simply because.it is a very small one. If the industry gives the prospect of being promoted by the very slight encouragement which the Government is now proposing to offer additional encouragement can be given at a later period. I ask honorable senators to throw aside their fears and to strike out boldly for a large and generous policy of development. Australian .progress cannot be promoted by men of little faith, shivering in their shoes and afraid to take the slightest step forward in case they should meet witb defeat. That is not the kind of spirit that ought to animate the people who are living in Australia to-day. 3572 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY They belong to the " Do-Nothing, Stand-Still Party." 3572 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART They appear to belong to the party who are all right themselves and who, for that reason, appear to think that nothing should be done to benefit anybody else. 3572 KAH NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 WALKER, JAMES Senator Walker We have a regard for the people of Papua. 3572 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART I probably have as much regard for those people as has anybody else. There are half-a-million natives in Papua, and they are very much better off than are a large number of the women and men who live on the mainland. My fear is that if the Commonwealth tinkers too much with Papua then, instead of improving the conditions of its people, it may do the very opposite. 3572 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY They have always plenty of food to eat. 3572 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART Yes, with very little work to do. I do -not believe that any one of us is particularly anxious to work if he can get what he wants without working. I appeal once more to honorable senators to support this little vote for rubber, and so encourage what may in the future prove to be a very large and important industry in .Australia. 3572 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH (Western Australia) [12.45].—I would like to support this item. 3572 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH Let the honorable-senator give his inclinations full play. 3572 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH I would support fhe item if I thought that there was a shred of a chance of the effort to establish the rubber industry succeeding in this country. We have only to look abroad to see what is happening in other parts of the world in-connexion with the production of rubber to know that it is utterly hopeless to expect that we shall be able to establish tho industry successfully in Australia. 3572 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART Why? 3572 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The authority quoted by the Minister mentions the large investment of capital in recent years in this industry in countries where there is cheap labour as well as cheap land, and it is impossible for us with our high standards-to compete with the production of those-countries. I went to some trouble to communicate with the gentleman who contributed the article from which the Minister has quoted, but I found that he was not very willing to give any further information with respect to the industry than that which has appeared in the daily press. It is, however, clear from what he has stated' in his article that very great attention has in recent years been directed to the production of rubber in other countries. He has stated that up to 1904 the world was entirely dependent for. its supply on the rubber growing wild in South America, Central Africa, and other tropical countries, but from that date onwards the attention given to the production of this article has been such that no less than 137 companies have been formed in London to engage in the industry in Ceylon, Malay, Mexico, Central "Africa, and Central Asia, with the result that in addition to the supplies of " wild " rubber there are now no less than 17,000,000 plantation trees which will in a very few years give an increased supply amounting to some 15,000 tons, or an increase of over 25 per cent, on the world's present production. 3573 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3573 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH If we give a bounty some of the companies might come this way. 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH It is a wonder and a pity that they have not come this way, but the fact that they have not done so is a proof that in their opinion the countries to which they have gone present a far more favorable theatre for their operations. I said that I would support the item if I thought there were a chance of the successful establishment of .the industry in Australia, but I believe that rubber must be placed with tea amongst the articles which cannot be profitably grown in Australia. .Tea can be produced in Australia, but at a price which I should be unwilling to pay for it. In speaking on the second reading of the Bill I mentioned the fact that ITiad myself drunk excellent tea produced in Fiji under climatic conditions precisely similar to those prevailing in North Queensland. I brought packages of that tea to Sydney sixteen, years1 ago. Why do we not encourage the growth of tea in Australia ? Is it not because we know that it is produced in India and China at a cost with which we could not compete, and that it could be produced here only at a cost which is absolutely prohibitory. 3573 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Would not that apply to everything that is produced in India and China ? 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH I am, in common with Senator Findley, a- protectionist, but I would hazard the opinion that the honorable senator would not go so far as to offer a bounty for the production of tea in Australia. 3573 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I would, if it can be grown in Australia. 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH There is no doubt that it can be grown in Australia, or that rubber can be grown in Australia, but it would be at a price which would not justif y us in granting a bounty. The writer of the article referred to by the Minister deals with the various uses to which rubber is-being applied. He speaks of its use for a pavement at St. Pancras, in London, but he does not say whether as a! result of their experience of its use there the London County Council favour its general adoption for the purpose. 3573 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH Because the supply is so scarce that it would be too dear. 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH I can imagine no contingency so detrimental to the success of the industrv in Australia as a reduction in the price of* the article. If the price of rubber comes down substantially the outlook for its production in Australia, under the standards which I hope we shall continue to maintain here, would become hopeless. In speaking on the second-reading of the Bill, and referring to the primary object for which the States experts were called together in conference—the preparation of a list of agricultural products to assist the production of which it would be wise to offer bounties—I said that in omitting to recommend that assistance should be given for the discovery and working of phosphatic deposits in Australia, the experts had utterly failed in their "duty. It is the application of improved machinery and of fertilizers to the agricultural industry which enables us to hold our own in Australia against the productions of even cheap labour countries. Whilst every effort is made to secure improvements in agricultural machinery, no substantial effort is made to bring a cheap fertilizer within the reach of the struggling settler. The need for a cheap fertilizer has been lost sight of by the experts' who have been called upon for their advice, and on that account I repeat that they have failed in their duty. 3573 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH Fertilizers are being manufactured with perfect success and in great quantities already in Australia. 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Last year Australia imported about 160,000 tons of fertilizers. 3573 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN The honorable senator should not mention the fact, or the Government will clap a duty upon fertilizers. 3573 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The neglect of the several Australian Governments to devise a scheme for the discovery and working of phosphafic deposits imposes a sufficient duty on fertilizers at the present time. It is my intention to move that the item " Rubber " be omitted with a view to provide a bounty, at the same rate and covering the same period, for the discovery and working of phosphatic deposits in Australia. 3574 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3574 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY Can we change an item in that way ? 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH I propose to ask the Committee to do so. 3574 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN I ask the honorable senator not to discuss the proposal he has foreshadowed, as the first question to be submitted to the Committee, should he move his suggested amendment^ would be the omission of certain words from the schedule. 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Then I move-- That the words "Rubber ... 15 years. . . 10 per cent, on market value" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words "Phosphatic Deposits. ... 10 years ... 15 per cent, on market value. 3574 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I rise to a point of order. I submit that the honorable senator's amendment cannot be accepted. It has been ruled that we can strike put certain items in the schedule, and subsequently transfer to other items the amounts set against those we have strupk out, but I contend that we have no power to strike out an item in the scheduleNfor the purpose of substituting a new item. If the amendment were in order it would be possible to alter every item in the schedule and so frame an absolutely new Bill. 3574 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY We might provide for a bounty on canned pineapples before we have done. 3574 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I submit that the amendment is not relevant to the Bill, and I hope the Chairman will rule that it cannot be submitted. 3574 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN The only matter that can be debated at this stage is the proposed omission of the words " Rubber . . . 15 years ... 10 per cent, on market value." It is perfectly competent for any honorable senator to move the amendment. No point of order can be raised on Senator 'Lynch's proposal to provide a bounty for the discovery and working of phosphatic deposits until the question for the insertion of the words to which he has referred is before the Committee. I cannot be called upon at this stage to give, a ruling upon an amendment that is not before the Committee. 3574 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY On the amendment that. the words now appearing in the schedule be left out, will it be competent for any honorable senator to discuss the proposal which Senaitor Lynch has submitted? If so, the discussion on the schedule mav be continued into next week. 3574 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN Is the honorable senator raising another point of order? 3574 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I am asking for information ? 3574 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN I cannot- give rulings on hypothetical cases. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2 p.m. 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH When we were dealing with cotton, a favourite and justifiable argument used was that, by the application of improved machinery, Australia would be able to hold her own against the cheap labour of cotton-producing countries. But in the case of rubber the initial cost of clearing the land in our tropical areas would be very great. 3574 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART It does not cost much to clear land there. 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH It costs more to clear land in the tropical parts of Australia than anywhere else. 3574 K7D QUEENSLAND 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART How much ? 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH lt costs anything up to £30 per acre. We are told in the experts' report that rubber is indigenous to the Northern Territory, and also grows very well in Queensland, and that Where the rubber tree abounds the country is thickly timbered. So that, if we encourage men to embark in such a foolish enterprise they will necessarily have to spend a considerable amount of money in clearing the ground preparatory to planting the rubber trees; and when they have incurred this initial expenditure they will have to compete against the products of cheap labour countries. It seems hopeless for us in Australia to expect to compete successfully in rubber growing. But what is the alternative? We have the Territory of Papua alongside Australia. Although we have not the direct interest in Papua that we have in our • own country, nevertheless it cannot be denied that we are concerned with the development of that country. One. of its chief industries is likely to be rubber production. We must rely upon Papua as a source of supply in this respect. We have an interest in the development of Papua which we cannot afford to neglect. It seems illogical for us to enter into competition with a Papuan industry which will be able to produce all the rubber we require for our own wants. The next point is— can we successfully produce rubber for sale in the markets of the world? I hold that we cannot, in view of the fact that since 1904 various wealthy companies have embarked capital in plantations sufficient to' produce more rubber than can be easily consumed. The bounty will lead to no good, and as soon as profits diminish through its cessation the industry must fail. It is hopeless for us to expect that with our white labour we can compete against black labour countries. 3562 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3574 JZC SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Major O'LOGHLIN Have we not done it in the matter of sugar production ? 3574 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Sugar and rubber are not in the same category. I have already intimated my intention of voting against the item, with a view of proposing a bounty for the encouragement of the discovery of deposits of phosphates. If we can afford any assistance in that direction we shall greatly aid in the promotion of agriculture. In the Agricultural Journal of Victoria it is pointed out what limitless possibilities of agricultural development are afforded by the use of fertilizers. I shall deal with this subject further at an appropriate time. Meanwhile I shall vote against the item. 3574 JZC SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Major O'LOGHLIN (South Australia) [2.10] 1 am sorry that Senator Lynch, in his excellent desire to encourage the production of phosphates, the value of which cannot be over-estimated, has selected rubber as the item to be sacrificed to carry out his idea. The production of rubber offers a most promising opportunity for the application of a bounty, and those who desire to develop the Northern Territory should be particularly anxious to vote for it. It is a product the demand for which is increasing enormously. No other product that can be mentioned is in such demand. That demand is likely to increase within the next few j'ears. It is true that there are difficulties about producing rubber in Australia. But if there were no difficulties to contend with there would be no necessity for a bountv. 3565 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Why not grant bounties to encourage the finding of radium in pitch blend? 3574 JZC SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Major O'LOGHLIN I do not say that it would not be desirable at a later period to grant bounties for the production of other commodities. But because an honorable senator may think that a bounty should be given for the production of something else, that is no reason why we should vote against the items included, in the schedule. If we were to act upon the idea that because certain industries are flourishing in other parts of the world there is no hope for them in Australia, we should do nothing to develop the country. Sufficient evidence has been adduced to show that there is reason for encouraging the production of rubber. At all events, we should endeavour to give it a start. The bounty proposed is not a large one-only 10 per cent.- for fifteen years. At the end of that time the plantations will be bearing, and our producers will probably be able to contend against competition. I should be very happy indeed to support Senator Lynch in a proposal to grant a bounty for the discovery of deposits of phosphates; but why do that in substitution for the item under discussion? Why not grant an additional bounty for that purpose ? We cannot over-estimate the importance of phosphates to the farming community. Their use has simply revolu-tipnized production in my own State. They have brought into profitable cultivation lands which had become wheat sick, and were producing, literally nothing. They have enabled farmers to rise from poverty to a condition of prosperity. The phosphate industry is one which we should all desire to foster. But, while I am willing to assist Senator Lynch, yet that is no reason why I should vote against a bountv for rubber. 3574 JZC CHANGE THIS NAME 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Major O'LOGHLIN (Western Australia) [2.15].—I am quite in accord with Senator O'Loghlin's desire to assist Senator Lynch, if possible, in his very laudable intention, but I do not agree with his attitude towards this item. Clear and suffi-cent arguments have been adduced to show that the item should stand. The item coffee would have been much more readily accepted by me as a means by which Senator Lynch could introduce his amendment. It has been fully shown that the production of rubber is an industry with great prospects, notwithstanding the morbid ideas of some Queensland senators about the extraordinary march of the chemists. They have probably fallen into the same error as the experts. They have not looked sufficiently long at the fact .that the chemists have been employed in the search for a substitute for rubber for a. large number of years, and that their endeavours so far have absolutely failed. 3576 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3567 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER That is exactly what was said with regard to indigo 3567 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON The honorable senator is very much afraid of the chemists, but when we were discussing a previous item, where it was shown that great possibilities existed of the skill of the engineer and mechanic being applied to economizing the processes of production, the honorable senator was so sceptical that he could not believe that the engineer or mechanic could go a foot beyond what had already been done. The honorable senator is, therefore, not consistent. I recognise as fully as any other honorable senator our obligations to Papua, and our duty to assist the development of industries natural to that country, but at the same time there are areas within the continent itself which have great possibilities. 3576 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Our responsibilities are to those whom we represent here 3567 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON Those are our responsibilities, first and foremost, and then in a secondary manner, we are responsible to those whom we profess to protect. The use of rubber is becoming so extensive that no man can, at this moment, forecast any limitations to it. I am satisfied that the item should be retained in the schedule 3576 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY (Queensland) [2.20].—Those who are supporting this measure will find, if they turn to the pages of Hansard, that the greater portion pf the time given to its consideration has been occupied in defending it, aind certainly not in any attack upon it. Senator Henderson should remember that with the enormous increase in the uses of rubber there has been nearly a parallel increase in its production. The world's output of crude rubber is now valued at £27,381,000, but only ,£1,500,000, or, roughly speaking, one twenty-sixth of that amount, is the product of the cultivated rubber. All the rest is the product of the " wild " rubber. I mentioned yesterday that in Mexico and in Arizona a. new species of rubber plant has been discovered, and will add considerably to the world's output. 3567 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY That is questioned in one of the Agricultural Journals. 3576 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The article I quoted gives the names of the factories treating the plant, and the exact cost of harvesting. The information is clear and •definite, and unless it can' be contradicted by something more convincing than a mere statement that experts somewhere or other do not agree with it, I shall have to accept it as correct. Some honorable senators are inclined to vote for the item on the ground that otherwise they will be expressing the opinion that rubber cannot be grown in the northern parts of Australia. A representative of Western Australia, in another place, on my askinr* him. what was the largest rainfall in Western Australia, told me that it was 58 inches per annum. That is nothing like sufficient to grow rubber. At Palmerston, in. the Northern Territory, there is a rainfall of 70 inches, but that is during four months in the year only. All experts agree that a continuously hot, moist climate is necessary to grow Para and Ceara rubbers—the two cultivated varieties. It is of no use to blink the fact that, we do not possess that climate in the Northern Territory, or in Northern Queensland, except along' the north-eastern seaboard. When I was in the Northern Territory, Judge Herbert told me that the countrv around Palmerston was exactly similar to that around Port Moresby, and on the western and south-western coast ot Papua. But for a parallel to a really tropical climate such as that on the northeastern coast of Queensland, we must no to the eastern coast of Papua. With all due respect to the other experts who have spoken on the subject, including honoiable senators, my opinion is that rubber can not be satisfactorily cultivated in Australia, except along the north-eastern coast of Queensland. The reports that have been submitted to us almost invariably refer to those districts in Queensland where, at the present time, sugar, and hemp to some extent, are being cultivated, and where they are beginning to cultivate cotton and coffee. 3558 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH What rainfall is necessary for the successful cultivation of the rubber plant? 3576 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY From 90 to 120 inches. It is stated that at one place along the Queensland coast the rainfall is as high as 200 inches. That undoubtedly refers to Geraldton, where in one year there was a fall of 240 inches. In fact, it was measured in yards. I admit that that is a very suitable place for rubber cultivation, but we have another industry there now. The Commonwealth has, and is getting under its control, new Territories, and the Australian people are being taxed to develop them. Some industries must be left to those places. If we seek to establish those industries in our midst in opposition to them, their natural tendency will be to undertake other industries which are now being successfully carried on in Queensland, and which can be undertaken with equal success in certain portions of the Northern Territory. I do not honestly believe that rubber-growing can obtain any great dimensions in Queensland or the Northern Territory, particularly in consequence of the competition that must inevitably result from the efforts being made to establish the industry in' Papua. The Royal Commission recently appointed to inquire into affairs in Papua reported most encouragingly on the prospects of rubber cultivation there. But they put down the .cost of felling, clearing and holing at £T an acre. On the other hand ai report, which I take it .is furnished by Mr. Newport, who is ah excellent authority on coffee, states the cost of the same work in Queensland at from £2 to £4 an acre, so doubling or quadrupling the expense at the very outset. The Commission put down the' cost of labour in Papua at £3 a head a year, to which., of course, would have to be added about 30s. a year for recruiting. 3577 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3577 K3G SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator RUSSELL Is the £3 for wages ? 3576 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY Yes, but no doubt the men would have to be found in food, clothes and tobacco. It will be seen from that report that the cost of labour will be very much lower in Papua than in Queensland. I feel sure that the attractions which are being offered by the Papua Administration in the form of cheap land, and the introduction of a large number of seeds and plants from other countries, will lead to the attention of people being diverted to Papua instead of to Queensland. I suppose it will be said once more that if this money is not spent no harm will be done. I hope that the time is not far distant when we shall be able to say that some of the tropical industries which we are now encouraging have attained such dimensions that it is advisable, in the interests of the country generally, that they should be encouraged further. We shall then be faced with the fact that a large sum of public money has been earmarked for certain industries which are not being started, and which therefore are not likely to be carried on. For that reason, I strongly urge that the Committee will not be doing any harm to Australia by striking out this item. If it is deleted, it will be within the.power of the Parliament later on to give some assistance to industries which are likely to become large and important to the whole of the Commonwealth. Question—That the words proposed to be left out be left out—put. The Committee divided. 10 12 Majority . . 2 AYES Cameron, C. St. C. Chataway, T. D. Dobson, H. Gould, A. J. McColl, J. H. Millen, E. D. Neild, J. C. St. Ledger, A. J. Walker, J. T. Teller: Lynch, P. J. NOES Findley, E. Guthrie, R. S. Keating, J. H. Needham, E. O'Loghlin, J. V. Pearce, G. F. Russell, E. J. Russell, W. Stewart, J. C. Trenwith, W. A. Turley, H. Teller : Henderson, G. PAIRS Symon, Sir J. H. Pulsford, E. Clemons, J. S. Gray, J. P. Macfarlane, J. Best, R. W. McGregor, G. Croft, J. W. Story, W. H. Mulcahy, E. Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Amendment (by Senator Colonel NEILD) negatived— That the figures " £2,000" be left out. Item agreed- to. Coffee, Raw; (period) 8 years; (rate of bounty) id. per lb"; (maximum payable in any one year) £1,500. 3567 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON (Western Australia) [2.35].—I am entirely opposed to this item. I do not propose to quote rusty evidence for the purpose of substantiating my position. I consider that there is very little need to quote further evidence than that which is contained in the report of the Conference of Experts. Those gentlemen, I presume, were appointed for the express purpose, of inquiring into the prospects of certain industries, and furnishing such information as they thought absolutely necessary for the guidance of this Parliament. That, in my opinion, was a very wise course for the Government 'to adopt. The experts show very clearly that there is no- reason why we should make the slightest attempt to coddle the coffee industry. Every time I read their report on the subject of coffee-growing, I wonder how they managed to arrive at its first paragraph, particularly after one has read and considered the following paragraphs. 3578 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3578 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Long before I got to the report on coffee-growing I ceased to be surprised at anything. 3578 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON Probably I had been surprised at one or two statements, but undoubtedly the report on the coffee industry was the greatest surprise of all. The first paragraph reads— While a very general feeling prevailed that coffee planting was not likely—at any rate in the near future—to become an important Australian industry, Conference is of opinion that steps should be taken to encourage it. Are there any words which could be selected- to express greater condemnation of this item than the words of thait paragraph ? The experts say in effect, " You may endeavour to build up the coffee industry by means of a bounty, but wfe tell you very clearly that it is utterly impossible that within the near future it can be of any value to Australia, Notwithstanding our condemnation, we blindfold ourselves and advise you to make an endeavour to encourage the industry." Evidence, of that character ought . to point out to us what is our common duty with regard to the item. 3578 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Did not the experts say nearly the same thing about the rubber industry ? 3578 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON In that case the experts did not write quite so strongly. They did not clearly show that an attempt to establish the rubber industry would fail, but they clearly show that it will be futile to endeavour to encourage the coffee industry. I intend to quote the whole • of their evidence on this subject in order that it may appear in Hansard, and the public may have an opportunity of learning what the experts did suggest to the Senate in respect of this item. In the second paragraph of their report the experts say— Can be produced over large areas of the tropical and sub-tropical portions of the Continent. The returns, however, from the plantations, are not at all alluring, while the consumption of coffee by the people of the Commonwealth is on a very slender scale. The experience of the chief coffee producing countries of the world, and these are countries where an abundant supply of cheap labour is obtainable—does not afford much hope for the extensive and successful exploitation of the industry under Australian conditions. They go on to say— They go on to say— Tn Brazil, for instance, sufficient coffee is produced to meet the requirements v of the whole world, the figures being as under:— Year 1901-2, world's consumption—15,500,000 sacks; Year 1901-2, Brazilian production—15,496,000 sacks. It will be seen that this leaves a very small portion indeed to be supplied by other countries, even including the Malay States. There is another reason why we should strike out this item. We have endeavoured to assist this industry since 1902. We have been told that in some parts of Queensland playful efforts have been, and are still being, made to produce coffee. I am justified in referring to these efforts as "playful" from the statements made by Senators Chataway and St. Ledger, who informed us that coffee was being produced in Queensland on little patches of land by men who were engaged in other industries, and who grew coffee as a sort of recreation. 3578 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER Who told the honorable senator that? 3578 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON That must have been the impression left upon the mind of every honorable senator by the honorable senator. 3578 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER It is an inference only. 3578 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON The honorable senator's inferences are often of more value than his straight-out statements. We have evidence that for a number of years people have been playing at the production of coffee in Queensland, to fill in their spare time, and afford them relief from other occupations. We have had sufficient evidence to prove that by the offer of a bounty we cannot make the production of coffee a success when we have been unable to clo so by the imposition of a duty. Since 1902 we have imposed a duty of 3d. per lb. on raw coffee. That is equivalent to at least 33 per cent, on the value of the article. That duty has been recently increased by half as much again. If those who had been growing coffee for a number of years in Queensland cannot extend their operations with the assistance provided by the duty, what hope »;an we have that we shall be able to coddle the industry with a bounty ? It is admitted that coffee must be grown in little patches here and there, and that there is no possibility of its production being undertaken on a large scale. We have seen that Brazil grows abundant coffee to supply the whole of the world's consumption of the article. There are coffee plantations in other countries, in which the industry is carried on under conditions similar to those prevailing on the Brazilian plantations. In the circumstances, we have to face the fact that to keep the industry going in Australia it will be necessary, after the bounty has ceased to operate, to increase the duty on coffee by 100 per cent. I am not at present arguing against the increase of the duty on coffee, but I ask whether, in the face of the evidence before us, the industry is one which justifies the payment of a bounty. Although Brazil can produce coffee sufficient for the world's consumption, the statement is made that the Brazilian.planters are pulling up many of their coffee plants, and a law has been passed in that country preventing the expansion of the industry for a limited time. All this goes to prove that it is impossible to develop the industry in Australia under the high protection that is at present- enjoyed, that it will be a useless waste of money to grant the proposed bounty, and that, if it is granted, when it ceases to operate we must look to other resources to coddle the industry for all time. The experts further report— It is also an ominous fact that according to ' the Trofen-pjlanzer—a recognised authority on all tropical matters—the p.lanters of Brazil have not only destroyed large quantities of coffee berry because of the low prices prevailing, but .have' also pulled up ths bushes growing on large areas of coffee plantation,' and are using the land for other purposes. The records available of Australian experience in coffee growing are bv no means encouraging. In the year' 1903 there were 318 acres under coffee in'Qucensland, the total yield being 83.632 lbs. Valuing this at 9d. .per lb.—which is allowed to be a fair average price—the return would not be more than £\o per acre. Considering the labor involved in clearing and preparing the land, in picking and cleaning for market, and bearing in mind the fact that the plantation does not become productive until it is four years old, this return appears totally inadequate. With all these disadvantages, the fact remains that coffee of a good type can be produced over large portions of Northern Australia, and accordingly a bonus of id. per lb. for eight years is recommended. Because there is land in the Commonwealth on which coffee can be grown, the experts recommend that a bounty of id. per lb. for eight years should be granted to encourage the industry. There is one other thing which I wish to say. I am well aware that there are some people who think that coffee-growing can be carried on very cheaply. I have heard it stated that even school children can carry out the work of picking the 'berries, and can do it very successfully. 3579 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3579 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN The report of the experts suggests that. 3579 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON So it does, and the moment I come face to face with an industry which encourages the exploitation of school children, I set myself dead against it. 3579 KAH NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 WALKER, JAMES Senator Walker What about the cotton industry? 3579 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON I am just as strongly against the exploitation of children in the cotton industry. On the evidence supplied' in the report of the Conference of Experts I shall oppose the item. 3578 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER (Queensland) [3.0].—I speak with some diffidence with, regard to this item. Unlike some of the Solons opposite, I do not pose as an agricultural authority. The figures which I shall give are not my own, and I shall leave honorable senators to draw their own inferences from them. The Committee has decided to grant bounties • amounting to ,£30,000 for the encouragement of rubber growing, although not one ounce of rubber has yet been produced in Australia. 3579 KNB SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Is the honorable senator in order in referring to an item that has been passed by the Committee? 3579 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN I understand the honorable senator to be discussing the item " Coffee.". He has meiely mentioned rubber incidentlv. 3579 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I merely stated the fact that we have already agreed to a bounty on a product, not one ounce of which has yet been produced in Australia. Coffee, however, stands upon an entirely different footing. It is an article which we have a reasonable hope of producing successfully. 3579 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Is the honorable senator explaining why he voted against rubber ? 3579 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I am not troubling myself about consistency or inconsistency. Some honorable senators opposite have taken upon themselves the role of sharpshooter with regard to me. Senator Turley is one of them. But, hereafter, all one has to do to him is to use the word " mohair " when he gets up. I wish to give some figures with regard to coffee cultivation in Queensland. I take them from the statistics of tliat State, published by authority, and dated 1905. That information will relieve Senator Turley's soul, and he will not be put to the awful necessity of snowing that I am inconsistent in quoting them. In 1896, the growth of coffee seems to have been commenced in Queensland. In that year, there were 26 acres under coffee, producing 9,707 lbs.; in 1897, there were 180 acres, which produced 88,614 lbs; in 1898, 199 acres, producing 56,552 lbs.; in 1899, 223 acres, .producing 104,981 lbs.; in 1900, 283 acres, producing 102,134 lbs.; in 1901, 370 acres, producing 130,293 lbs.; in 1902, 314 acres, producing 113,301 lbs.; in 1903, 318 acres, producing 83,632 lbs.; in 1904, 292 acres, producing 132,554 lbs.; in *9°5> 335 acres, producing 82,230 lbs. So that there was a steady increase in the growth of coffee from 1896 to 1901. In 1901, the duty on coffee was reduced by the Commonwealth Parliament. Before Federation, it was 4d. per lb.; in 1901,. it became 3d. Between .1901 and 1902 there was a drop in production from 370 to 314 acres, and by 1904 there had been a further decrease to 292 acres. 3580 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3580 KOS WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 HENDERSON, Christopher Senator HENDERSON That was caused by the land being devoted to sugar culture. 3580 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I am simply quoting facts. I am well aware that there are Solons and Solomons opposite who are capable of interpreting them, and who, when I venture to draw my own inferences from facts, accuse me of being almost a scoundrel. But I know thaf they speak only in a Pickwickian sense 3580 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN The honorable senator does not know them! 3580 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The honorable senator should not try to drag a red herring across the scent. To do so is only worthy of a brilliant ornament of the stinking-fish party. The figures that I have quoted show that there was for some years a steady growth in coffee production in Queensland. Whether that was due to the State Tariff is a question that does not now concern me. At all events, it is clear that coffee growing can be carried on in Australia. If honorable senators opposite think that the industry can be conducted with a reasonable chance of success, they ought to be inclined to give it a start. Senator Henderson has stated that, during the course of a speech I made some time ago, I said that the growing of cotton, coffee, and kindred products could be taken up as a kind of recreation to supplement other industries. I am not aware that I made such a. statement. I did say, however, that young persons who have left school can engage in these industries without any undue strain upon them. I venture to say, too, that assuming that an industry was remunerative, I would rather see any one belonging to me engaged in an outdoor occupation of this kind than have them sweated in one of the Melbourne factories. Some time ago, I visited a flourishing coffee plantation near Cairns. It is owned by a Mr. Street. I spent a day with him in company with some professional friends from Brisbane. He had established his industrv at the top of the range, aided by his family. His boys and girls were a credit, not only to him, but to Australia. The family had every kind of reasonable comfort, and there was every evidence of intelligence and refinement in their home. This man's son, a fine, strapping young fellow, was engaged in the industry, and showed no signs of physical deterioration through the work. As this policy is bound to affect the labour conditions of Australia, it is our duty to discriminate in favour of those industries which do not enervate our young people as against those which must degrade them. This gentleman pointed out the difficulties that he had to contend with.. He said, " I do not care a straw about your black or yellow labour. I haye shown that I can carry on the industry, but what I do want is some protection. Through a decrease in the duty on coffee I am afraid that I cannot compete, but if the Commonwealth Parliament had left the duty at the same rate as under the old Queensland Tariff I would have been able to make a success of it." The duty under the Queensland Tariff was, I believe, 4d., but under the Commonwealth Tariff it was reduced by id. per lb. He said that owing to the reduction in the duty he doubted whether his son would remain with him, and whether he could carry on the plantation, but he • added that he would try. I do not know the ultimate history of that experiment in coffee-growing, but I believe he is there still. What is the position of honorable senators who supported bounties for jute and rubber—and not a pound of rubber will be produced in Australia—and yet oppose a bounty for coffee? I have shown from the figures that, although the increase in the coffee industry has been small, it has still been at reasonably sound and hopeful one. If I adopted the ungenerous and uncharitable insinuations that have been hurled at us from the other side of the chamber, what taunts might I not have hurled against those who are opposing this item? I know that in supporting it so strongly I am leaving myself open to the charge of inconsistency. But I want to banish that kind of childish argument from the •Chamber. I assume that we are all trying to do our best for the industries of Australia, and, as the Government are determined to support some industries by bounties, to advance the best arguments we can find in support of the most deserving tmes. I am entitled in these circumstances to ask that the best intelligence of the Committee should be devoted, without any party prejudice or feeling, to the interests of those industries which can be established in Australia. 3581 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3581 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH How long did the duty on coffee obtain in Queensland before the Federal Tariff was introduced? 3581 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I am not in a position to give exact information, but I think that a fairly strong protective Tariff was imposed in Queensland about 1887. It was regarded in Australia as one of the best instances of a scientific Tariff, and one of the industries which got the benefit of protection, if it was a benefit, was coffee. The figures show that the industry in 1896 showed a very fair promise. The evidence I have given proves conclusively that there are reasonable hopes for the industry in Australia. Coffee grows in a portion of Northern Queensland which has a climate remarkably suited for white men—a" tableland climate entirely different from that along the coast. I am entitled to discriminate between items like rubber and jute, and others like cotton and coffee, which can be grown in places in Queensland eminently suitable for our own white people, and the cultivation o'f which has been successfully undertaken there by white men. Of course, when one begins to discriminate he lays himself open to the accusation of not discriminating properly. 3581 KRZ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Can the honorable senator say .whether the expansion of the production of coffee in Queensland took place under a smaller or. greater import duty than the duty in the present Commonwealth Tariff? 3581 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER I cannot say. I can quite understand Senator Lynch opposing the item on some of the grounds whicli he has already advanced, but I cannot see how Senator Henderson, from what he has said, can oppose the encouragement of the coffee industry in Queensland. The figures certainly look very hopeful compared with those relating to other items to which we have already agreed to give bounties. I think I am entitled to adopt every one of the arguments that have been used in this Committee in favour of jute, rubber, and even mohair, in support of a bounty on coffee, in spite of any imputation of inconsistency. 3581 K3G SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W. RUSSELL How is the honorable senator going to vote? I cannot make him out. 3581 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER If the honorable senator does not understand me, I do not think the entire responsibility is on mv-self. 3581 KUL NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Does the honorable senator contend that to grow coffee a duty °f 33 Per cent, and also a bounty are required? 3581 K78 QUEENSLAND 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER am really not able to answer that question. That is one of the reasons why I wished to discuss these items from two independent points of view—first that of the Tariff, and secondly that of a bounties system. I asked that we should be allowed to deal with the Tariff first, in order that we might see how industries such as this would be affected by it, as distinct from a system of bounties. Under present conditions I cannot anticipate what the effect of the Tariff will be. We have, however, discarded that argument, and decided to have regard .only to the question of what new industries can be established in Australia with a reasonable chance of success, and whether the experts can show from absolute facts that those industries are already being carried 'on. On those lines the Committee bave already proceeded to vote thousands of pounds. My answer to Senator Millen's question is that I wanted to keep the questions of import duties and bounties separate. Amongst the many items in the schedule there is not one that can show a more reasonable chance of success than coffee. 3582 K3G SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W. RUSSELL (South Australia) [3.28].—It is refreshing to have, so much amusement thrown into our parliamentary labours, but I do not think it is very encouraging to reflect that a luminary of the law should talk for so long and not be able to make himself understood. I shall not try to emulate the last speaker. I do not believe in spreading myself, even if I could. When I was a boy in Old Scotland, I read a proverb of Solomon, to the effect that there is more hope for a fool than for a man who is wise in his own conceit. I ask Senator St. Ledger to think over that until the next sitting of the Senate. I have studied the report of the experts. They condemn this item, and I intend to vote against it. 3582 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3582 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY (Queensland) [3.30].—Before I move the amendment whichi I outlined in my second:reading speech, I wish to refer once more to the question of the statistical position of coffee. I feel sure that Senator W. Russell is basing his opposition to the item on those two very unfortunate and, I think, very unjustified lines, in the report with reference to the world's production and consumption of coffee. In my second-reading speech, I pointed out that the production of Brazil has fallen nearly 50 per cent, since the date of the figures which the experts have quoted. In the case of food-stuffs, such as coffee, cocoa and sugar, it is not at all uncommon for the production in one year to be greater than the known consumption. For instance, the total production of cocoa throughout the world in 1906, was 260,000,000 lbs., but the total consumption was only 227,000,000 lbs. That may be taken as a very good reason why people in other parts of the world, or even in Australia should at once cease to cultivate cocoa. But, as a matter of fact, in the case of a great many food-stuffs, we find that, • whereas there is an over-production in one, two, or three years, the thing regulates itself in a decade or, it may be, a longer period. It is not uncommon, in connexion with such products as coffee, cocoa, and sugar, for a large amount of stock to be held im hand from one year to another —that is till there is a short production. Therefore, honorable senators need not pay a great deal of attention to the fact that in their report, the experts quote figures for 1901-2 as to the statistical position of coffee. I feel sure that those who have had an opportunity of tasting the Queensland coffee, which was served in the refreshment-room to-day, will admit that its quality is excellent. An officer, who is connected with the refreshment-room, has informed me that the price at which this coffee is quoted here and sold in Queensland is perfectly satisfactory as compared with the price of any other coffee which can be obtained here. Although the Queensland coffee-grower's are not sending down large quantities, still, the industry is on a fair road towards success. I believe that nothing can be said against the quality of the coffee of which samples have come under the attention of most honorable senators. 3582 JXT NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 Colonel NEILD, Thomas Senator Colonel NEILD It is both cheaper and better than the majority of the imported coffees as sold. 3582 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY I am glad to hear Senator Neild, who I believe, is a great authority on gastronomical delicacies, add his testimony to the qualities of Queensland coffee. I move— That the word "Raw" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " as prescribed." The Minister may not desire to " see an alteration made, but I believe that the amendment will improve this line in the schedule, and meet the varied conditions under which coffee is hulled and pulped in different parts of Queensland. On a previous occasion, I pointed out that in some cases the farmers have their own pulping machines, and send the coffee up to a central factory or place which is provided with a hulling machine. • In other cases, they may both pulp and hull on. the ground. So far as I can see, it is impossible to provide in the schedule for tbe various cases. The clause, which gives power to make regulations, will enable the Government to deal with the conditions under which articles shall be produced. If we retain in the schedule the words " coffee, raw," it seems to me—-and I believe I am safe in saying that the Attomey:GeneraI holds the same view—that it will be somewhat difficult to. define what is meant by raw coffee. If, however, We adopt the words " coffee as prescribed," the regulations can be' framed in such a way that thev will apply to the various phases of hulling and pulping coffee, which occur throughout the very extensive areas from the south to nearly the north of Queensland, where coffee is grown in small or large quantities. 3583 Bounties [20 September 1907.] Bill 3583 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON Does the honorable senator mean that the bounty is to be paid upon the production of coffee in the bean? 3583 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY Yes. If it is to be paid upon the coffee after the bean has been hulled, undoubtedly it may go to the manufacturer. 3583 JVC TASMANIA 0 0 DOBSON, Henry Senator DOBSON That is what we do not want to happen. 3583 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY Exactly. I believe it will be quite safe to allow the Department to frame the regulations in such a way as to meet the varying conditions under which coffee is hulled and pulped in different parts of Queensland. I am not speaking altogether on my own initiative. I have received a telegram— which I fear I have mislaid—from the chairman of the Buderim Coffee Growers' Association in South Queensland, in which he said that the bountv should be paid on parchment and not on hulled coffee, because the growers pulp the coffee and sell it in the parchment. I believe that my amendment will meet the views of every one. 3583 JZC SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Major O'LOGHLIN What does the word "raw" in this item include? 3583 K8W QUEENSLAND 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The coffee bean itself. 3583 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM (Western Australia) [3.40].—I regret that Senator St. Ledger is noc present, because I desire to congratulate him upon beinrr consistent in one thing, if in nothing else. I have not yet heard the honorable senator make a speech without first referring to the honorable - gentlemen on the opposite side, who he apparently concludes are always opposed to him. I hope that he does not include me within the category of his out-and-out supporters on this side, because I am not sitting here on account of my shade of politics, but as a matter of choice. I intend to oppose this item. I believe that there is a duty of about 50 per cent, on coffee, and when we add the freight, the' protection is brought up to about 7"! per cent. If the coffee industry cannot thrive with that protection, it ought to be abandoned. The grant of a bounty for the industry is only another phase of protection. It is proposed to spend, within the next eight vears, .£12,000 to foster an industrv which has enjoyed ample protection in the past, and had an excellent opportunity to establish itself. I believe it is thought that the best place in which to develop the industry in Australia is the Northern Territory. When I was there recently, I saw an abandoned coffee plantation near a place called Beatrice Hills, on the banks of the Adelaide River. We could see the. abandoned ploughs and other implements. An effort had been made to establish the industry- there when the Customs duty was even higher than it is now. I did expect that the senators from Queensland would make out a better case for this item than they have done. I looked particularly to Senator Chataway to supply facts and figures which would induce the Committee to vote for the item. . Throughout the consideration of this Bill, he has rendered valuable assistance to the Committee by putting forward facts and figures regarding various items, but to-day he has failed to prove the necessity or advisability of voting £12,000 to encourage the coffee industry. I want to compare the Queensland dutv on coffee with the Australian duty. Prior' to Federation, the Queensland duty on raw coffee was 4d. per lb., but under the Commonwealth Tariff the duty was fixed at 3d. Again, prior to Federation, the Queensland duty on kiln-dried coffee was 6d. per lb., but under the Federal Tariff the duty was fixed at .sd. Senator St. Ledger quoted a number of figures as to the area under cultivation from 1896 to 1905', showing that it had increased from 26 acres in 1896 to 335 acres in 1905. He proved to my satisfaction that even with that large protection, the industry did not thrive. We are asked to sanction the annual expenditure of £1,500 for the next eight years to encourage this industry. I shall not refer to the report of our own experts, which has been sufficiently quoted by Senator Henderson. But I propose to make a quotation from the report of a Conference held in the United States in 1902, to be found in the " Documents of the United States Senate, vol. 4, second session, 1902-1903." This report emphasizes the statement made by our own experts, that the trouble with the coffee industry is over-production. 3583 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY CHATAWAY.—That is ancient history. 3583 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM The honorable senator may think so, but he has failed to disprove any of the facts stated in the report of our experts, and I challenge him • to disprove the facts set out in the report of the American Conference. 3584 Bounties [SENATE.] Bill 3584 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY In my second-reading speech I disproved all the figures in the experts' report. 3584 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM The American Conference reported— That although it is desirable that many improvements be introduced in the production .and commerce of coffee, the present crisis of that industry consists only in the lack of profit, and ruinous price paid for the commodity to the producer. That the principal cause of the low price which brings about the present crisis is the excess of the supply over the natural or normal demand. In the same volume there is a report of the Delegation from Ecuador, from which I quote the following— In order to discharge the honorable commission of reporting upon the causes of the depreciation of coffee and the best means to be adopted for reaching a better commercial value, it were sufficient to reproduce the reasons so clear, so concise, so precise, given by the Commission, entitled " Associacao Commercial da Bahia," in its report of 21st March, 1901, addressed to the President of the " Directorio do Centro Commer. cial do Rio de Janeiro," namely, " that overproduction is the sole and principal cause of the great depreciation of coffee," as also " respecting any means for ameliorating this unfortunate situation it is evident that the onlj' thing to do consists .in establishing an equilibrium either by diminishing the output or by increasing the demand." Indeed, it is the increased output especially in Brazil that has brought about throughout the world the extraordinary and rapid depreciation that in so alarming a manner has caused the trade in this bean to suffer, especially since the 1S96-97 crop. That depreciation has reached to an average of 85 per cent., as compared only with the years 1891-1807. However, we will give some statistical figures as vouchers that bear out the simple words of the report quoted, as also that we ourselves insignificant contributors to the coffee out-turn are utterly incompetent to find a remedy; that Brazil, the paramount factor in that branch, has failed to. discover, in spite of the energetic efforts made to put off the economic disaster that is growing in that great Republic, namely, the drop in the price of its staple product of exchange. The statistical figures of the coffee output for the crop ending in June of the present year show a total of 20,000,000 bags, of which i5>439>00° come from Rio and Santos, and 4,561,000 bags from the other countries. The crop closing June, iqoi, showed an output of • 15,460,000 bags distributed thus— I shall not weary the Committee by reading the figures showing the distribution amongst the various countries. I have quoted from these reports to prove that it is ridiculous for us to attempt to develop the coffee industry in Australia with a paltry bounty of £1,500 a year for eight years. 3584 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY The honorable senator does not think that the • amount proposed is enough ? 3584 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM I do not, and if it were quadrupled it would not be sufficient to establish the industry in Australia at the present time, in view of the fact that Brazil is in a position to supply more coffee than is demanded by the world's consumption of the article. 3584 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY But the honorable senator's figures are not correct. In my second-reading speech I gave later figures than he has quoted. 3584 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM I was not present when the honorable senator made the speech to which he refers, but I am satisfied that there is ample proof that the Brazilian plantations aire quite able to meet the world's demand for coffee. 3584 JYX VICTORIA 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Granting that the honorable senator's statement is correct, the outside world can supply Australia with iron, but is that any reason why we should not establish the iron industry in the Commonwealth? 3584 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM There is no analogy between the two industries. 3584 JVC VICTORIA 0 0 TRENWITH, William Senator TRENWITH We are all agreed on the White Australia policy; and is it not better that we should produce coffee with white people than that we should import coffee produced by black people? 3584 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM It would be if we were in a position to do so, but I do not think that we can do so. I do not wish it to be understood that I am opposed to the bounties system. This, I think, is only the second item on the schedule that I have opposed. But I think that there should be some reasonable prospect shown that the expenditure of money in the form of bounties will be followed by some practical result. When speaking on the second reading of the Bill, I mentioned the fact that it' is possible to encourage in Australia an industry to which reference has been made by the Fisheries Conference, but to which the Government have paid no attention. So far, Ministers have vouschafed not one word of a reply to what has been said with regard to the' prospect of encouraging the sponge industry in Australia. Sponges-can be obtai ned on the coasts of Queensland, South Australia, and Western Australia. .1 read to the Senate a report which proved the soonges found on the-coast of Western Australia to be of a high commercial value. 3584 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN I ask the honorable senator not to pursue that subject on this item. 3585 Australian Industries [20 September, 1907.] Preservation Act. 3585 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM I propose to move a . further amendment on the item when Senator Chataway's amendment has been dealt with. I intend to move that the words " Coffee, Raw," be left out, with a view to insert the word " Sponges." 3585 TO3 0 0 CHAIRMAN of Committees The CHAIRMAN I point out to the honorable senator that if he wishes to move that the word "Coffee" be struck out, he must get Senator Chataway to withdraw his amendment, because it would not be in order to move the omission of the word "Coffee" after the Committee had dealt with the word " raw." 3585 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM Perhaps Senator Chataway will temporarily withdraw' his amendment to enable me to move the amendment I have suggested? 3559 K6L QUEENSLAND 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY I am willing to withdraw my amendment temporarily. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (by Senator NEEDHAM) proposed— That the words " Coffee, Raw," be left out, with a view to insert ia lieu thereof the word " Sponges." Progress reported. Senate adjourned at 3.55 p.m.