1910-08-17 4 1 0 SENATE 1581 0 Senate. 1910-08-17 The President took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 1581 papers MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers : - Public Service Act 1902. - Documents in connexion with the promotion of Mr. George Henry Gatehouse to the position of Chief Clerk, 1st Class; Mr. John Lawrence Cantwell to the position of Examiner, 2nd Class; Mr. James Joseph Maher to the position of Examiner, 3rd Class ; and Mr. Cyril Lempriere Westbrook to the position of Examiner, 4th Class, Clerical Division, Auditor-General's Office, Melbourne. Lands Acquisition Act 1906. - Wyong, New South Wales : Post Office. - Notification of the Acquisition of Land for Site. Defence Acts 1903-1904 - Regulations (Provisional) for the Military Forces of the Commonwealth - Amendment of Regulation 71. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 68. Amendment of Regulation 14. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 69. Financial and Allowance Regulations for the Military Forces of the Commonwealth. - Amendment (Provisional) of Regulation 98. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 67. Excise Act1901. - Tobacco Regulations. - Cancellation of Regulation 1,and substitution of new Regulation in lieu thereof. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 71. Seamen's Compensation Act 1909. - Provisional Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1910, No. 70. 1581 Questions 1581 1581 KLS ALP 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I wish to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council a question without notice. I understand that the first business to be considered to-day is the second reading of the Northern Territory Acceptance Bill. I notice on one of the walls of the chamber a large map, which, I presume, has been placed there for the information of honorable senators. If that be so, it ought to be an accurate map. As a matter of fact, it is not an accurate map. It shows the railway line from Townsville to Cloncurry as going through Winton, when, as a matter of fact, the line does not go through Winton, or pass near that town at all. I notice, also, that the map is not drawn to scale. I should like to know by whose authority so inaccurate a map has been placed here for the information of honorable members? 1581 KTF ALP 1 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - In answer to the honorable senator's question, I may say that I did not draw the map. I may add that even the accuracy of the Ten Commandments is sometimes disputed. I shall make all inquiries necessary to see that any irregularities in the map referred to are explained. 1581 bill Assent reported. 1581 Questions 1581 1581 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator READY asked the Minister representing the Minister of Trade and Customs, upon notice - Is it a fact that unmounted crayon enlargements from the firm of M. Tanqueray, Rue de Turin, Paris, are admitted into the Commonwealth through post, entirely free of duty ? If so, why? Should such be the case, will the Customs Department take steps to prevent them coming in without duty in future? 1581 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The answers to the honorable senator's questions are as follow : - We have no information as to the importations of the particular firm referred to. It has not been the practice to charge duty on portraits. It is not certain we have the power. I will, however, see whether we may not be able to legally charge duty on photographic enlargements under the provisions of Item 410 (a) of the Tariff. 1581 1581 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator READY asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice - If, as indicated by a reply to a question by a member of another House, the Commonwealth Postal Department is considering the advisability of running a special motor car to carry the Inter-State mails from Launceston to Hobart on arrival of the Melbourne boat on Sundays, will the Department consider the advisability of distributing mails to the towns en route ? 1581 JYX ALP 1 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY - The answer to the honorable senator's question is as follows : - The delivery of mails at towns en route will be included in any arrangement made for carrying Inter-State mails from Launceston to Hobart on arrival of the Melbourne boat at the former on Sundays. 1582 bill Motion (by Senator Pearce) agreed to - That leave be given to introduce a Bill for an Act to amend the Defence Act 1903-1909. Bill presented, and read a first time. 1582 bill 1582 Debate resumed from 10th August (vide page 1313), on motion by Senator McGregor - That this Bill be now read a second time. 1582 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - As I moved the adjournment of the debate after Senator McGregor had moved the second reading of this Bill, it devolves upon me to say a few words upon it. I think there is no difference of opinion as to the desirability of the Commonwealth taking over the Northern Territory. It comprises an area of nearly 600,000 square miles, and is a very large and practically uninhabited portion of Australia. It has many valuable rivers, and there are places on the coast at which a foreign Power might obtain ingress and secure a foothold in positions from which it would probably involve a vast deal of trouble and expense to dislodge an enemy. The subject-matter of the Bill is covered by the terms of the agreement under which we are invited to take possession of this Territory. Honorable senators will bear in mind that, although South Australia has had control of the Northern Territory for a great number of years, she has never been able to make a success of the task she undertook in the government of it, although she has spent a great deal of money in the effort to develop it. 1582 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - She has kept it white, and has not, as has been done by some of the States with their territory, attempted to develop it with black labour. 1582 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I believe that, as a matter of fact, there are more Chinese than Europeans in the Northern Territory, so that South Australia has not kept it white. The principal business residents are yellow coloured men. However, the population is a purely negligible quantity. 1582 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The coloured people have left it because they could not live in it; even the Chinamen have gone out of it. 1582 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The Northern Territory forms a not inconsiderable portion of Australia, and South Australia has incurred an annual loss by the ordinary expenditure in its development. The Vice-President of the Executive Council, in introducing the Bill, cited the cost of the construction of the railway from Port Darwin to Pine Creek. The public debt on the Territory amounts to something like , £2,725,000, and the deficit on the advance account is £603,222. These figures represent the state of affairs about twelve months ago, but they are the latest I could get. This brings the present debt on the Territory to about £3,300,000. I wish honorable senators to notice particularly that the deficit represents the annual loss involved in the control of the Territory by South Australia. The interest payable upon loans amounts to £110,990 per annum, and if the Commonwealth takes over the Territory, it must become responsible for the deficit and the annual expenditure by way of interest. There is a further interest charge on the advance account of £602,222 amounting annually to £17,142. Under the agreement included in this Bill, it is stipulated that there shall be a sinking fund provided by the Commonwealth. I believe that South Australia makes provision for a sinking fund in respect of the debt of £2,725,000 to which I have referred, and it is estimated that this involves an annual charge of £6,963. These figures of interest payable and provision for sinking fund amount together to £135,000. Then it is proposed that there shall be a sinking fund in connexion with the smaller sum due, and this will make an addition of a further amount to the annual expenditure. Then there is an excess of interest and sinking fund in the accounts for 1907-8 of £16,398. There is a total annual expenditure upon the Territory, not including interest on the Oodnadatta railway, of £151,493. As to the Oodnadatta railway, of which we are asked to take charge, we find that it has cost South Australia £2,242,600, and that the annual interest amounts to £84,000. There is a surplus of earnings over working expenses of £12,000. 1582 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - How do they get at that? Does that mean £12,000 per annum, or for the whole period ? 1582 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The annual surplus of revenue over earnings amounts to £12,000, leaving a net deficit of £72,000 upon the railway. The Commonwealth is asked to indemnify South Australia for the expenditure to which she has been put on that account. Furthermore, under the proposed agreement, the Commonwealth is to be bound to connect the railway from Port Augusta to Oodnadatta with the line from Port Darwin to Pine Creek. The cost of that work has been estimated at nearly £5,000,000 sterling; so that, as the Vice-President of the Executive Council put it the other day, we are called upon to face an expenditure of between £10,000,000 and £11,000,000 sterling in connexion with this agreement. 1583 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - And in return for that the Commonwealth will get an area four times as large as Great Britain. 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It has been stated that the area is so large that the total cost works out at something like 3d. an acre. But 1 want honorable senators to realize that we are not buying the Territory. We are called upon to take charge of it in the interest of the whole of Australia. 1583 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - It is being given to us ! 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It is not being given, nor is it being bought by us. Originally South Australia was, by charter, intrusted with the control and management of the Territory, the right of the Crown being reserved to revoke the grant at any time. The Territory was not given to South Australia to form a part of her own property in the ordinary sense of the term. It was merely placed under her control and administration. In the Commonwealth Constitution it is, however, recognised as being a portion of South Australia. But now South Australia comes to the Commonwealth with a proposal in which she says that she is quite willing to hand over to us the control of the Territory on certain conditions. One condition is that she shall be indemnified for the expenditure to which she has been put, and the loss she has sustained, in connexion with the administration. 1583 K9T 0 0 VARDON, Joseph Senator Vardon -That is not unreasonable. 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I quite agree with the honorable senator. I do not suppose that there is a single member in either House of the Legislature who would demur for one moment to that proposition. It is generally recognised that South Australia has acted as a trustee, and has administered the Territory to the best of her ability at considerable outlay. We are prepared, as we ought to be, to recognise that as a fair and reasonable proposal. But when we come to consider the other provisions of the agreement, we find ourselves hampered with conditions which we should find it hard to justify in the interests of the Commonwealth. We ought not to permit ourselves to be leg-roped - to use an expression employed in this Chamber on a previous occasion - in the matter of connecting the Northern Territory with other portions of Australia. We ought not to be compelled of necessity to construct the railway that South Australia considers to be the proper one. 1583 K9T 0 0 VARDON, Joseph Senator Vardon - It is the proper one, beyond a doubt. 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator, as a representative of South Australia, is entitled to think so. 1583 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - No one questions that. The only thing is that the projected railway would not develop Queensland territory. 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Perhaps New South Wales would support Queensland in that contention. If the route proposed by South Australia will stand the test of examination and determination by the governing power, why should she be afraid to trust this Parliament ? . But, on the other hand, if it is shown that the proper way to develop the Territory by building a railway through it is to take the line over to the east, and attach it to the States of Queensland and New South Wales, the Commonwealth ought not to hesitate to adopt that course. 1583 K3G 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W Russell - And develop Queensland instead. 1583 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I do not think that Queensland desires the Commonwealth to help in the development of her territory. She has always shown an independent attitude, and has been well able to develop her own lands, and is doing so at a rapid rate at present. But my argument is not that we ought to develop Queensland, South Australia, or any other State by means of the projected railway, but that the railway ought to be for the purpose of developing the Northern Territory, and making it, what we believe it may ultimately be, a very fine area for the settlement of a large number of people, whom we hope to see placed there. If it were shown that the best route for the railway would be towards the east instead of north and south as South Australia desires, we should carry the line in that direction so that we might develop the Territory to the highest advantage. The descriptions of the Territory that have been furnished to us seem to me to show that there are large areas of valuable land lying to the east of the proposed line of railway, and not to the west, nor along a direct north and south route. If the line be carried north and south, it will traverse a large tract of barren, useless country, but if it were carried to the east there might be a possibility of developing valuable land. South Australia, however, has devoted time, energy, and money to the development of the Northern Territory, and she may think that she ought to be recouped for her expenditure by the construction of a railway which would connect Port Darwin with South Australia proper. But our main object must be to develop the Northern Territory itself. The only question for us is whether the railway which South Australia desires would have the effect of developing the richest portion of the land. 1584 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Yes, of course. 1584 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - But the reports which I have read show that the richest territory is to be found towards the east instead of along a due north and south route. 1584 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Nothing of the kind. 1584 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Of course, I have not been in the Territory itself, and can only speak from reports which I have read. 1584 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Will the honorable senator indicate one report that condemns the route of the proposed railway, which includes the MacDonnell Ranges? 1584 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I have not the reports by me just now, and do not know that I could put my finger immediately on the passages to which I refer; but I have read them, and the impression strongly formed in my mind is that the most valuable country lies to the east. I do not say that there is no valuable land along the due north and south route; but I am satisfied that there is a greater possibility of development in an easterly direction than is probable by taking the other route. Again, it may be remembered that Lord Kitchener, on his re cent visit to Australia, called attention to the necessity of connecting the Northern Territory with the other portions of Australia by railway. Let us, therefore, look at the matter from a military point of view for a few minutes. If it be necessary that a line of railway should be built to the Northern Territory in order to protect it from any attempted raid in time of war, where would the bulk of the troops for the defence of the Territory be drawn from ? Would they not be drawn from the eastern coasts of Australia? Do we not find, when we consider the facts, that the largest number of troops could most expeditiously be despatched from Queensland and New South Wales, rather than from the south ? Evidently, the bulk of the troops must come from the portions of Australia where the bulk of the population resides. The bulk of the population is on the eastern seaboard. 1584 K3G 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W Russell - At Sydney, of course ! 1584 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No; not necessarily at Sydney. I am not speaking from the point of view of Queensland, Victoria, or New South Wales, no matter what the honorable senator may think. 1584 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Does not the honorable senator contemplate the possibility of all the States being connected with the main line? 1584 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes; but when we are talking about railway construction we must remember that the resources of the Commonwealth are not unlimited. Do honorable senators think for a moment that the Commonwealth would be justified in building any but the line of railway that it would be most advantageous to construct, both from the point of view of military strategy and territorial development ? We also have to bear in mind that the railways which South Australia has at present built in and to the Territory do not pay, and, as far as I can judge, will not pay. South Australia is asking us to incur a heavy liability in taking over these lines. If, therefore, she insists on our building a line which is not the most advantageous to construct, and we do so, the Commonwealth will be saddled with a still greater probable loss, whilst, at the same time, we may not have the line which will best conduce to development in the future. Does South Australia believe that the Commonwealth can develop the Territory properly and fairly, or does she consider that the Commonwealth requires her Government at its back to advise in what way it is to develop its own land? 1585 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - South Australia thinks that the Commonwealth ought to be guided by the hand of the State, which has already failed. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We have to realize that South Australia has failed to make a success of the Territory, and that, so far as we can judge, there is no prospect of her doing any better in the years to come. If she felt that she could develop the Territory to her own advantage and at her own expense, do honorable senators think for a moment that she would have offered it to the Commonwealth ? 1585 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - If you reject this agreement, you will see what she will do. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD -We have heard that statement before. South Australia has had forty years in which to develop the Territory, and she has succeeded in building a little railway line and piling up not only a large loan debt, but also an annually recurring deficit of about £110,000. 1585 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - And New South Wales had 100 years in which to develop her territory. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - New South Wales never attempted to develop the Territory. She never undertook the control of it. 1585 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - She had control of it. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD .- New South Wales never attempted to develop the Territory. I give South Australia all credit for the pluck and energy which' she has displayed; but, unfortunately, she has failed to achieve the success which she desired. An interjection was made just now with regard to the valuable country in the Macdonnell Ranges. It was suggested not long ago that, instead of South Australia handing over to the Commonwealth the Northern Territory down to her present northern boundary, she might hand over only the portion of the Territory north of the Macdonnell Ranges, leaving the ranges in her hands if she believes that they are capable of being developed and made a profitable proposition. I feel quite sure that a Bill for that purpose would receive acceptance at the hands of honorable senators. I do not know whether Senator Symon agrees with the view expressed that there is nothing in the agreement to bind the Commonwealth to carry the railway entirely within the Territory or to prevent the Commonwealth from diverting it into the neighbouring States, so long as it touches on the northern boundary of South Australia. That view has been put forward, I believe, by a member of the present Government. But, on the other hand, we have had placed upon the table the opinion of the Crown Solicitor for South Australia, in which he advised his Government that the railway must be constructed within the Territory, and that' it would be a breach of the agreement to deflect it into either of the adjoining States. 1585 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The honorable senator knows that we can always get any persons but the lawyers to agree. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Honorable senators have to bear in mind that they are now asked to assent to an agreement. It is an important consideration to them whether it bears one construction or the other. Therefore it is most desirable that they should give attention te the point. 1585 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Make it. clear. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It may be desirable to make it clear, so that honorable senators may know what they are doing. If the agreement does provide that the whole of the railway must be constructed within the Northern Territory, how foolish the Parliament would be if it acted on the assumption that it had the right to go into the adjoining States, only to find itself at- last haled before the High Court for attempting to do what was unconstitutional. 1585 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Apart from the constitutional or legal aspect, there ought to be no question of sharp dealing in the matter. 1585 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Exactly. I am not going to charge anybody with an attempt of that kind, because one opinion is supplied by the Commonwealth law officers, and another opinion is provided, for public consumption, by the law authorities of South Australia. While the matter remains in doubt, the Senate should take the course necessary to protect the interests of all parties, and that is not to bind the Commonwealth to construct the railway in any particular direction. It is not right, I repeat, to attempt to shackle the Commonwealth in any way with regard to the administration of the affairs of the Territory. It should be left with a free Hand, and should the present Government be in power when it became necessary to build' the railway, no doubt they would select the route which they conceived to be best in the interests of the Territory and of the Commonwealth as a whole, regardless of whether it might be to the advantage or to the detriment of a particular city or State. The agreement, of course, contains a large number of conditions. I am prepared to accept the broad condition that the Commonwealth shall recoup South Australia for any loss which she may have sustained in connexion with the railway, but neither my voice nor my vote will be given in favour of placing any restrictive conditions upon the Commonwealth in regard to the way in which it is to develop the Territory. If South Australia thinks that the Commonwealth is capable of developing the Territory, she should say, " Go and do the best you can with it." We have only one object to serve, and that is to promote the interests of the Commonwealth as a whole, and not of any particular portion of it. 1586 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Besides, in any future arrangement made, South Australia, in common with the other States, would have its full say. 1586 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - South Australia has a constitutional right to make her voice heard in this Chamber. She has always had the great advantage of being represented by many singularly able men, who have been enabled to clearly state her position whenever it became necessary, in contradistinction to the position of other portions of the Commonwealth, and so far as one can judge she will probably continue to return that class of legislators. I have no desire to say more at this stage. I have no doubt that the second reading of the Bill will be carried on the voices, but I would urge honorable senators either to eliminate from the agreement the portions which tie up the Commonwealth, or to add a proviso which would make it absolutely clear and plain that the Parliament of the Commonwealth is to be the sole and final arbiter as to the way in which the Territory shall be developed. 1586 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not think that any of us, and certainly not those who are more intimately connected with South Australia, have any reason to complain of the initial attitude which my honorable friend, Senator Gould, took in the view which he with so much force placed before the Senate; nor do I think that there is any dispute that from the broad, national standpoint, it is desirable, in the interests of the Commonwealth as a whole, that this great tract of country, which is almost one-fifth of the area of Australia, should be directly under the control of the Commonwealth. I do not, and never did consider, that it is any objection to the attitude of South Australia - although there has been a good deal of carping criticism to that effect - that she has not succeeded in making the Northern Territory populous, or, so to speak, blossom as a rose, rich with the produce of the undoubted mineral wealth which it possesses. I am not at all sure that the other States have quite overtaken all the development which is possible within their boundaries. I am one of those who are inclined to think that some of the larger States might very well be divided, that those portions which they are unable to effectively control might very well be declared Territories of the Commonwealth, and that when they reach that stage of population and wealth which would entitle them to be regarded as States, they should be admitted as States of the Commonwealth. Therefore, I do not attach the slightest importance to criticism such as. that which my honorable friend has just used in respect to South Australia not having made a success of the Territory. Success is a vague term, and success within the meaning of what I have indicated has not been possible for a population of 300,000 or 400,000, who, to use a common expression, have perhaps " bitten off more than they can chew." 1586 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - They have done remarkably well. 1586 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think, so. That is the position. It is of no use to make a statement like that of my honorable friend, that South Australia has not made a success of the Territory for forty years, although it has been in her possession. But for the fact that she was exercising the functions of government, and controlling the Territory, it is just possible that it might not have been in the possession of Australia at the present moment. No reproaches ought to be cast on any State. I am not sure that reproaches could not be cast on New South Wales or Queensland for having, I will not say neglected, but ineffectively developed the immense areas which they respectively possess, and that they might not have been made much more productive of wealth than they have been; but that is no reproach. People forget that this great continent is very nearly as large as the whole of Europe, which contains fourteen or fifteen nations, and to use it as a reproach or as an objection to an agreement or a bargain of this character, that South Australia, with her 300,000 or 400,000 people, has not done all that she might or could have done, is simply to utter, I shall not call it claptrap, as it comes from my honorable friend, whom I esteem very much, but remarks which are utterly beside the question with which we are concerned. 1587 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The remarks were made not so much to carp at South Australia, as to point out the difficulty in front of the Commonwealth. In other words, to point out that the Territory is not such a valuable asset as is represented. 1587 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That does not show that it is not a valuable asset. Western Australia was called the Cinderella of the Continent a few years ago, and nobody knew of the existence of those untold golden riches which were under her soil some 300 or 400 miles from the coast, until they were discovered. I dare say that if anybody had suggested, when she had a population of some 40,000 or 50,000 persons, that that enormous territory - about a fifth of the whole continent - should be taken over as part of a bargain, it would have been stated that all the country at Kalgoorlie and Coolgardie was a mere barren desert, and would not provide water for a goat within hundreds of miles. But look at it now. So in the Northern Territory it is the same at this day, but it is the same with this difference, that it has been established that it is immensely rich in mineral wealth. 1587 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Why not keep it then? Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON.Because we want to generously share it with the other States. The honorable senator is like others who desire to have the Northern Territory annexed to Queensland, to have all its riches in the possession of that State, and its produce brought down to Brisbane, always subject, of course, to the claims of some of my honorable friends from Sydney, who think that that is the port to which the produce of the Territory should come. I do not intend :to occupy the attention of the Senate on the question of the desirability and importance of the Territory being an integral part of the Commonwealth as a Territory, and not as part of the State of South Australia. Senator Gould was quite right in saying that there is no difference of opinion on the broad national question of the desirability of taking over the Territory. 1 do not believe there is a member of the Senate who holds a different opinion. Nor is there any difference of opinion that the Territory, if it is taken over by the Commonwealth, should be transferred subject to the charge upon it. 1587 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - That is not in question at all. 1587 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Just so. But it was, I think, in question not long ago. People used to say, " We ought not to pay South Australia this money," and I could not understand the contention. Because, as between man and man, if a property is handed over from one to another for a consideration, or without it, in addition to the charges due upon it, it is taken over subject to the mortgage, if any, upon it ; and the debt on the Territory may be described as a mortgage. I could never understand the suggestion made, and I am glad that no such suggestion is now made, that the Territory should not be taken over subject to the charges upon it, incurred by the owner in doing his duty by it. That is now conceded. But one reason why, from another point of view, that is fair and proper, is that South Australia has expended these moneys in building railways with a view to the development of the Territory. . She built the Port Darwin to Pine Creek railway, and has run it all these years, if not at a loss, at any rate without much profit. Honorable senators, perhaps, forget that she has also run a railway from Port Augusta up to Oodnadatta, which is within 100 miles of the 26th parallel, the southern boundary of the Territory. So that South Australia has done a very great deal in the direction of carrying out what, adopting a phrase used by Senator Gould, is best adapted in the interests of the Commonwealth to promote the development of the Territory in the future, namely, the construction of a direct line from Port Augusta to Pine Creek and Port Darwin. The debt on the Territory has been incurred in this way, and in the necessary efforts of South Australia to work the southern railway until she could connect Oodnadatta with Pine Creek. When it is remarked that South Australia has not been successful in developing the Territory, it might be said that she was not successful because of the policy of keeping Australia white. 1588 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - That stands to her everlasting credit. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - She had an opportunity a good many years ago, and passed an Act to avail herself of that opportunity, for the introduction of Indian coolies into the Northern Territory. But the sentiment of South Australia, and of Australia generally, was so strong as to the desirability of keeping Australia white that that Act remained a dead letter, and not a single coolie from India was imported under it into the Northern Territory. It is all very well for honorable senators to say that the Chinese are there; but I may say that, but for them, there would be no revenue at all from the Territory, and that is not the only part of Australia in which there are Chinese. South Australia abstained from introducing coolies to develop the Territory. Another thing from which she abstained was the opportunity to continue the line from Oodnadatta to Pine Creek by securing its construction on the land-grant system, as she might have done more than once during the last forty years. I say that that is something to be proud of also. It is another of the circumstances which account for the accumulation of the debt. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The honorable senator thinks that the people of South Australia should be rewarded because they refrained from doing wrong things. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator would never be rewarded if he were only to be rewarded when he refrained from doing wrong things. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - That is the honorable senator's argument. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Not at all. I am dealing with the matter from a national point of view. I am sure that my honorable friend's policy is to keep Australia white, and to abstain from the construction of railways on the land-grant system. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Yes, but I say that no. one has a right to claim a reward for refraining from doing wrong things. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - What reward ? 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - South Australia claims a reward under this Bill! 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - South Australia is not asking the Commonwealth to do this, and, instead of getting a reward, it appears to me that she is likely to get more kicks than ha'pence. This is part of a bargain. My honorable friends keep on saying that South Australia is asking the Commonwealth to pass this Bill and to do this, that, and the other. She is doing nothing of the kind. This is a mutual bargain between two contracting parties, the Commonwealth on the one hand, and the State of South Australia, the present owner of the Territory, on the other. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - And a huckstering bargain at that. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is on the part of the Commonwealth ; and my honorable friend is intensifying its huckstering character, it seems to me. It is conceded on all hands that South Australia, in transferring this Territory to the Commonwealth, is entitled to be paid the money expended and resting as a charge upon it. If that is conceded as a right, what consideration is she getting for parting with the Territory? 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - She is asking us to take over a non-paying railway. 1588 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The Territory represents a dead loss to her every year. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - One thing at a time. I say, on this point, that South Australia is not getting a ha'porth of reward for her forty years' control of the Territory. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Except to be recouped for all her losses in connexion with it. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is not a reward. She is proposing to give the Commonwealth many times the value of that. If we put the matter on that ground, let me remind honorable senators that South Australia is giving the Commonwealth 335,000,000 acres of land at 2d. per acre. 1588 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Does the honorable senator regard the Northern Territory as an asset ? 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - To the Commonwealth ? 1588 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - To anybody. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Yes. 1588 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I regard it as a liability. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then the honorable senator's judgment on that point is not sound. 1588 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The figures prove it. 1588 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They do not prove anything of the kind. The Ministry of which my honorable friend was a member introduced a Bill identical with this, last year, and proposed to give us the railways also. 1588 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Political exigencies. 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not care what the honorable senator calls it ; there are strange names for these things. 1589 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Was the Bill of last year on the same lines as this? 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It was exactly the same as this Bill. I do not suppose that anything I could say, or anything that an angel from Heaven could say, would satisfy honorable senators from Queensland, or, perhaps, some of our honorable friends from New South Wales, that the straightest line from north to south is not to be found by going 1,000 miles to the east, and zigzagging the line to the south. They say that the longest way round is the shortest way home. 1589 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - It very often is. Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON.Perhaps; but it is not so with regard to this particular railway. Putting all that on one side, I say that, so far as regards the taking over of the Territory on the one hand, and accepting the liability on the other, there is not one ha'porth of reward proposed for South Australia. She would not make one farthing of profit out of the bargain. We are all agreed upon that. Rut do honorable senators not think that she is entitled to make some little profit out of it? 1589 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I thought the honorable senator was dealing with the question from a great national point of view. 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am bringing it down, for a moment, to my honorable friend's suggested huckstering level. Will any one say that 335,000,000 acres, with Port Darwin and its harbor, are not worth more than 2d. per acre? 1589 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - To make anything out of the Territory we shall have to spend a good deal more. 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Suppose we have a naval base in Sydney, does not my honorable friend think that a little of the revenue of the Northern Territory will be spent there? 1589 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There will be no revenue. We shall have to meet a deficit. 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We are going to make revenue. 1589 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - How? 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - When my honorable friend is Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, which, we hope, will be soon. 1589 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I thought the honorable senator would not answer the question. 1589 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - When Leader of the Senate, Senator Millen voted for the Bill. 1589 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That is not strictly correct; but, perhaps, it is as near as the honorable senator could possibly get. 1589 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is as near as is necessary; but I shall not quarrel with Senator Millen if he changes his opinion. I merely wish to say that South Australia will not make a single farthing out of this transaction, unless by the stipulation agreed to by both the contracting parties with respect to the railway. That is really the question on which we differ. I wish to remind my honorable friend, when he talks about distances, that South Australia has bridged over the distance between Port Augusta and the southern boundary of the Territory to within100 miles. She also, years ago - and I think this stands to her credit in connexion with the development of the Territory, as well as in connexion with national Australian interests - built the telegraph line across the continent. Honorable senators need not imagine for a moment that, in making these references, I am boasting of what South Australia has done. What I mean to infer is that, if this Bill is not passed - and I am not saying this as a threat in any shape or form - I have faith that South Australia, in some way, will accomplish her destiny in connexion with the Northern Territory, and will, whether by the land grant or some other system, construct the railway, and bridge over the distance between Oodnadatta and Pine Creek before many years are past. Personally, I do not care two pins whether the Senate adopts the agreement or does not ; but I say that South Australia, which has done so much in the construction of national works of benefit to Australia, is capable of doing more. I ask honorable senators to recollect that she has already constructed, at her own expense, the railway which it is a part of this agreement that the Commonwealth should take over. The coot of that railway is a present charge on the Territory which should be paid back to South Australia if it is transferred to the Commonwealth. It should not be forgotten that the railways already constructed bridge over the worst part of the intervening territory between the good country on the south and the good country to the north. I should like to see any report which condemns the MacDonnell Range country, or the country from the Katherine River northwards. It is magnificent country. 1590 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What is the rainfall? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have not examined the statistical records of the rainfall. My honorable friend can examine and analyze them as much as he pleases. 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The honorable senator wishes people to know nothing of reports of an unsatisfactory kind. 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If my honorable friend lives in the statistics of the rainfall, I give him joy of it. I may be allowed to say that the arguments with respect to distance, in connexion with military operations, appear to me to be ludicrous. The populous State of Victoria is practically within from twelve to fifteen hours of Port Augusta. If they were wanted, troops could be sent from Melbourne to Port Augusta, and from there on to Port Darwin in much shorter time than by any other route. That, as every one knows, is the shortest route to Port Darwin from Melbourne, and is shorter by perhaps 200 or 300 miles than the shortest of the zig-zag routes which have been suggested. 1590 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Not zig-zag ; what is proposed is a slight deviation. 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - A slight deviation which, no doubt, would be almost unobservable on a map on which 100 miles would seem as one. A slight deviation into Queensland is proposed; and God alone knows when we should ever get out of the State again. 1590 K9T 0 0 VARDON, Joseph Senator Vardon - It is proposed that the line should almost immediately leave the Northern Territory. 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course it is. I do not wish to say a word against the desirability of linking up existing lines of railway communication with the Northern Territory line. I hope, and believe, that that will be done some day ; but it should be done at the expense of the States most concerned. 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - But the Commonwealth should bear the expense of linking up South Australia with the Northern Territory ? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There are already constructed two most important sections of the great trunk line linking up South Australia with Port Darwin, and all that is asked, under this Bill, is that we should bridge over the gap between Oodnadatta and Pine Creek. 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If the Northern Territory is to belong to the Commonwealth, why should we go beyond the boundaries of our own Territory to construct a railway in South Australia, if we ought not to go into the other States for the same purpose? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We are making a bargain with South Australia now ; and the railway already constructed' must be regarded, from an ordinary business point of view, as a part of the main trunk line. It would seem to be merely a sensible thing that we should utilize the two portions of the main trunk line already constructed, and content ourselves with closing up the gap between them. Why should we abandon a railway which goes to within 100 miles of the border of the Territory to be taken over, in order to get away to the east to make a slight deviation, as Senator Fraser says, into Queensland or New South Wales? 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Who proposes that we should go to the east, or in any other direction ? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We need not go in any other direction. We can keep the railway within the Territory and South Australia. 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Who proposes to go anywhere else? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator. 1590 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I do not propose anything of the sort. I propose that if the Territory is taken over by the Commonwealth, this Parliament shall be left absolutely free to do what is best for the development of the Territory. 1590 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - Hear, hear ! 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Senator Gould cheers the interjection by Senator Givens. Both these gentlemen are taking the broad, national view, and propose to take advantage of what they consider the necessities of South Australia, to despoil her of any future results from her efforts. I must say that patriotism in New South Wales and Queensland is gradually increasing. 1590 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Has not the honorable senator ample faith in the Federal Parliament? 1590 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have ample faith in the Federal Parliament, but we are now making a bargain. The Commonwealth desires, I take it, to be possessed of this Territory, which, as it exists, is a menace to the safety of Australia. The Commonwealth was the initiator of this project. She approached South Australia, and asked that State on what terms she would be prepared to hand over the Territory. South Australia replies, ' ' All that we desire is that you will complete the grand trunk railway, which' we have already begun, through to Port Darwin." That is all ; and that, as far as I am concerned, I hold to. I shall decline to be a party to handing over the Northern Territory to the Commonwealth unless it be part of the bargain that the Commonwealth shall construct that trunk line between the north and south. I am quite willing, as far as the route is concerned, that it shall be anywhere within 500 or 600 miles east or west of the twenty-sixth parallel. I am quite willing that the best route shall be ascertained within the area. But, speaking for myself, I will not depart from the condition that the railway must be wholly within the Northern Territory. There is one point as to which I agree with my honorable friend, Senator Gould, and that is that there seems to be a little ambiguity as to whether the language of this Bill would permit the line to deviate into Queensland or New South Wales, or out of the Northern Territory. I am glad that Senator Gould has called attention to the point. I consider that it should be made perfectly clear. If honorable senators desire to vote for this Bill on the assumption that the stipulation in question shall be satisfied by taking the railway eastward into Queensland or New South Wales, the Bill ought clearly to say so. On the' other hand, if they desire that the railway should be wholly within the Northern Territory, the Bill should say so. 1591 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Does not the honorable senator think that it would be a good thing to allow the Commonwealth Parliament to decide that point? 1591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We are not here to pass a Bill merely to provide a cause of litigation between South Australia and the Commonwealth. Last year it was stated over and over again what the intention was, and we all voted for the Bill on the assumption that the line was to be wholly within the Northern Territory. It was so declared by Mr. Groom, then Minister of External Affairs, in the House of Representatives. He was asked by Mr. W. H. Irvine, when he was moving the second rending of the Bill, " One terminal point is Pine Creek; what is the other ? " Mr. Groom said, " A point anywhere on the Port Augusta line. The real terminal points are Port Augusta and Port Darwin." Then, when the point was put more specifically by Mr. W. H. Irvine, " Under this agreement, will the whole of the railway have to be within the Northern Territory? " Mr. Groom said, " That is so, according to the strict interpretation of the agreement; but the South Australian Government take a more liberal view, and contemplate the possibility of having to cross the Queensland border." That is a matter of concession, which has nothing to do with the agreement. Then Mr. Watkins said, "Is it not mentioned in the agreement that the line must be on the South Australian land?" Mr. Groom replied, " That is what I say the agreement strictly seems to contemplate." In the Senate, Senator Best, who introduced the Bill here, affirmed that view, and declared - I wish to point out in this connexion that the route of the railway is not determined according to the terms of the agreement further than that it must be within the east and west limits of the Territory. Senator Givens interjected, " And must end at a given point." That is my view of the terms of the agreement. But that stipulation is rendered a little doubtful by the language of the Bill. I think the agreement in terms makes the point clear, but the Bill itself leaves it a little doubtful. 1591 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The railway must be strictly within the Territory. 1591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Yes; but the Attorney-General of the present Government, who is a gentleman of keen mind and an acute lawyer, has made public the opinion, which was adopted - as it was proper that it should be - by the Government in the other House, that such was not the true construction of the agreement. We have also the opinion of the Crown Solicitor of South Australia, which was adopted by the Ministry of last year, and which I myself share. There is, therefore, as pretty an opening for litigation as one could well desire. 1591 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - A good thing for the lawyers. 1591 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Good for the lawyers, perhaps, but we are not here as lawyers. We are here as representatives of the different States and of the people of the Commonwealth; and I myself am not going to be a party, now that attention has been called to the doubts that exist, to enacting a measure that may be the cause of a law-suit. We are here to confirm or to disaffirm an agreement, and if we see a possibility of doubt, we ought to do our best to remove it. Consequently, when this Bill gets into Committee, if no one else moves an amendment, I shall do so, in order to make it clear that the railway is to run wholly within the limits of the Northern Territory. I wish to say at once that, unless that be made clear, I shall not support this Bill on its third reading. By allowing these conflicting opinions to remain unsettled, we should simply stultify ourselves as legislators, and put upon the statute-book the initial stage, so to speak, of litigation that will not only produce great difficulty and trouble, but may cause heavy expenditure and unending bitterness between the two contracting parties. We certainly do not desire to do that. All those who vote for the second reading of the measure will, I feel sure, consider that they must vote for my amendment. 1592 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould -No. 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -If the honorable senator voted for the Bill last year, he must surely vote for my amendment ; because the Bill last year was voted for on the declaration of the Government of the day that the railway was to be wholly within the Northern Territory, and within South Australia. 1592 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The principle of the Bill is that we should consent to taking over the Northern Territory. 1592 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The statement of Mr. Groom last year, as quoted by the honorable senator, was that the South Australian Government contemplated the possibility of the railway going into Queensland territory. 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No; the South Australian Government merely considered the possibility of a deviation. Mr. Groom, in my judgment, was not authorized to make the statement he did. 1592 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Authorized or not, the statement was made. 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The late Government introduced their Bill on the assumption that the railway was to be wholly within the Territory, and my honorable friend voted for the measure on that understanding. He should, therefore, vote on this occasion to make clear what I agree with my honorable friend Senator Gould is at present a little doubtful because of the conflicting opinions to which reference has been made. It is not, I may add, doubtful in my own opinion. I have no hesitation concerning the point, so far as the terms of the agreement itself are concerned. But, unfortunately, the words of the agreement, which make the matter abundantly clear, are not introduced in the Bill. I do not suppose that they were left out by a trick. No one would suggest that for a moment. But this Bill was framed and introduced last year on the assumption that under the strict terms of it the railway was to be wholly within the Northern Territory. Therefore I propose to give honorable senators an opportunity of making that quite clear on the present occasion. 1592 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Does the honorable senator say that there are words in the agreement which are not embodied in the Bill? 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Yes. 1592 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Will the honorable Senator indicate them? 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Certainly. In clause 2, paragraph c, of the agreement, it is provided that the State of South Australia shall - At the time of such surrender authorize by legislation the Commonwealth to do all that is necessary to enable the Commonwealth to make surveys, acquire the necessary lands, and to construct or cause to be constructed a railway in South Australia proper from any point on the Port Augusta railway to a point on the northern boundary line of South Australia proper to connect with that part of the transcontinental railway to be built in the Northern Territory from Port Darwin southwards to the northern boundary of South Australia proper. Those words are not in this Bill. 1592 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - But this is a Bill to ratify the agreement. 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Exactly ; and if my honorable friend will read the valuable opinion given by the Crown Solicitor of South Australia, he will see that he rests upon that point. I am not going to express my own opinion one way or the other. To construe the whole agreement you must look at it as a whole. Those words are in the agreement, and make the intention fairly plain. 1592 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - But if the Bill ratifies the agreement, and those words are in the agreement, surely that is enough? 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But if the point is left in doubt, it may lead to any amount of litigation. 1592 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - The agreement is in the schedule to the Bill. 1592 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If my honorable friend will look at the Bill, he will see that the part of the agreement in which the words quoted occur are omitted altogether from the Bill, because they relate to obligations imposed upon the State of South Australia. Consequently, the words are contained in the Act which has been passed by the South Australian Parliament. This Bill is to ratify and confirm the whole . agreement, and it authorizes the construction of the railway contemplated by paragraph 1 of the agreement. Clause 5 of the Bill says - The agreement is by this Act ratified and approved. 1593 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - That means the agreement set out in the schedule. 1593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Exactly ; the whole agreement. Then comes clause 14of the Bill, which imposes a liability upon the Commonwealth to do certain things. It is stated in paragraph b of that clause that the Commonwealth is to construct or cause to be constructed a line from Port Darwin southwards ; and in paragraph d the Commonwealth assumes the obligation to construct another railway line. It seems to me to be clear that the. railway to be constructed by the Commonwealth must be within the Territory. 1593 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - I should like to hear the honorable senator arguing on the other side. He would tear the whole thing to pieces. 1593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It could not be done. The question is not arguable. 1593 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould -I should be quite willing to hand the honorable senator a brief to argue on the other side. 1593 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -I will take the brief and the fee. I appreciate the compliment. But, in order to avoid the possibility of the honorable senator having to hand me, or any one else, a brief in a case between South Australia and the Commonwealth, I think it desirable that the two or three words which I have indicated should be inserted in the Bill. That, therefore, is what I propose to submit by way of amendment. I shall look to Senator Gould for help in elucidating a point that certainly ought to be made clear. Otherwise, the agreement is satisfactory enough. I conclude with the expression of the hope that the Bill will be speedily passed. Debate (on motion by Senator Givens) adjourned. 1593 bill 1593 Debate resumed from12th August (vis page 1477), on motion by Senator McGregor - That this Bill be now read a second time. Senator Lt.-Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD (New South Wales) [4.26].-I did not anticipate that this debate would have been resumed this afternoon, and, consequently, I am taken at a disadvantage. It was introduced as a Bill which dealt principally with machinery, but in the form in which it has reached the Senate it contains some very far-reaching provisions which should receive very full and fair consideration at our hands. We all realize, of course, that it is the duty of the Parliament to make our industrial legislation as workable as it can be made, so long as we keep clearly within our constitutional powers. Matters which were discussed and settled on certain lines in 1904 are being entirely altered in this Bill. There is no necessity to debate the position of unions, or the way in which industrial powers should be brought into existence, because we have recognised that it is necessary to enable industrial associations to place their views before the public in the way which they consider desirable in the interests of the community at large. But we are getting more and more into this position : that the. only persons to be considered are those who belong to unions. When an investigation is made, it will be found that the preponderance in number is greatly in favour of the men who do not belong to unions. In introducing the Bill, Senator McGregor pointed out that it is the men of the most ability, the most energy, and of the most far-seeing views who are in the unions, and who have been the means of bringing unionism into its present position. Our people have long since regarded the existence of unions as a very legitimate state of affairs. 1593 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Not very long. 1593 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes, unions pure and simple, but not unions which had become to a very large extent political and partisan bodies. It was found that the Sydney Wharf Labourers Union - of which the Attorney-General was secretary - had a rule to the effect that every unionist must contribute a certain sum annually towards a political fund, and, whether he liked it or not, vote for any parliamentary candidate who might be chosen by the Labour party. That, to my mind, was a complete prostitution of the whole intention of unionism as established originally, and as recognised generally by people throughout English-speaking communities. We all recognise that men have the right to combine for the advancement of their' mutual interests, but we do not admit that a few men have the right to procure a strong position with regard to their own particular calling, and to say to men outside their union, " You shall not be admitted unless you are prepared to sacrifice any political principles or views which are not in accordance with those of the governing body." ' The purpose of a trade union, in the first instance, was the protection of the mutual interests of workmen in their own calling. It was recognised that they should have the opportunity of combining to obtain the best practicable conditions from their employers. But the unions had nothing to do with, and never should have been mixed up with,' the political opinions of its members. I can very readily imagine a number of men being in a union, whose object is to get decent working conditions and wages, and at the same time holding different views on political questions. If it were claimed that the men who were selected by the Labour party had only one object in view, and that was to protect the interests of a particular class, there might have been, not a sufficient justification, but some sort of excuse for taking up the position which they did, because they practically said, " We are only concerned with getting Labour interests attended to. Your interests and ours are the same so far as Labour conditions are concerned, therefore we expect you to vote for the man whom the majority of us consider best fitted to represent us in Parliament." But when a man enters Parliament, he has no business to regard himself as the representative of a class. He should look upon himself as a representative of the people, and study the interests of those who do not belong to his class just as he would study the interests of those who do. 1594 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - That has been well carried out in the past. 1594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt ColonelSirALBERT GOULD .- What sort of legislation are we called upon to consider from time to time ? To-day we are called upon to deal with a measure relating to industrial matters ; to-morrow we may be asked to consider a measure dealing with trusts ; and on the following day a measure dealing with something else. 1594 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - A measure to take over the Northern Territory. 1594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator will find that while there are honorable senators on either side who are opposed on certain principles, their views on other questions agree. Take, for instance, Senator Givens, who supports the Government, and belongs to the Labour party. He and I take the same view in regard to the Northern Territory Agreement, showing at once that we are actuated not by consideration of party, but by a desire to promote the interests of the whole community as represented in this Parliament. 1594 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Are not those who are taking the other side actuated by the same motive? 1594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I recognise, of course, that they are actuated by the same honorable motive, but I contend that men ought to keep themselves free from the suspicion that they only come into Parliament to represent one particular class. It will be remembered that in Sydney a large body of men had preference granted to them by the Arbitration Court. It was found that they had a rule to the effect that no man, unless he would consent to sacrifice his political convictions to those of the dominant majority, should be allowed to enter the union or to earn his livelihood in the occupation which' he was accustomed to follow. Then it became necessary for the Court to make an' order that the rule should be altered if that union was to retain the preference previously granted to it, and the rule was altered accordingly. When the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Bill of 1904 was under consideration, a provision was inserted to protect citizens from being tyrannized over by rules made in this other direction. 1594 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The provision put in the Bill covers everything. 1594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It covers certain things. But the mast remarkable feature of the provision is what it omits, not what it includes. 1594 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - It does not omit anything which the trade unions want. 1594 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - It does not go far enough. 1594 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Probably the honorable senator. thinks that preference ought to be made compulsory, as was attempted to be done in the first instance. 1595 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - I do. 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Section55 of the principal Act deals with the question of rules. After making necessary provision for the registration of organizations, it says - Provided that no such organization shall be entitled to any declaration of preference by the Court when and so long as its rules or other binding decisions permit the application of its funds to political purposes, or require its members to do anything of a political character. And further, provided that no organization shall be entitled to appear before the Court to oppose an application for preference by any organization so long as its rules or other binding decisions permit the application of Us funds to political purposes, or require any of its members to do anything of a political character. It will be seen that the section deals with employers as well as with employés, and does not extend to organizations having political purposes as a portion of their aims and objects. What the phrase " political purposes " does not include is defined - " Political purposes " in this section does not include obtaining or maintaining provisions applying to all persons in any particular industry, without discrimination as between those who are and those who are not members of an organization, with respect to the regulation of the following matters : - (i.) Preservation of life and limb. (ii.) Compensation for injuries or death. (iii.) Sanitation. (iv.) The sex and age of employees. (v.) The hours of labour. (vi.) The remuneration of labour. (vii.) Protection of salaries and wages. (viii.) Other conditions similarly affecting employment. It is provided that these organizations shall not be used for political purposes, but the Act specifies certain matters which are of moment in connexion with the employment of workers, and allows to the unions the freest possible hand in those respects. If there are any similar matters which it is necessary to add, then there will be no objection to include them in the section. But why should any organization which is established for the purpose of securing employment, obtaining decent wages and working conditions, and settling industrial disputes, have the right to say, " No man shall come into this union unless he has a particular brand upon him"? 1595 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Because the people say so. 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The people say nothing of the kind. Take any great organization or body of working men. Suppose that 1,000 men are employed in a particular occupation. Many are outside the unions, but the argument which is now urged is that the men who are inside a union may make a close preserve of it for themselves, and say to the other fellows, " You shall not be allowed to work at your trade or occupation, because we have got preference, and before you can come into our body you must give up all your political principles if they differ in any way from those which we advocate at present." 1595 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - That is an inversion of the whole matter, 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - You have no right to get rid of provisions of that character, because they were designed to insure the safety of the community at large. I have yet to learn that any man, because he does not see fit to join a union, is not to be allowed to earn his living at the trade or occupation which he has been accustomed to follow. 1595 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - Why can he not take the responsibility of going before the Court in the same way as other people? 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The responsibility of what? 1595 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - There must be some person who takes the responsibility of standing before the Court. 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes. 1595 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - The hundred men do that. They get the privileges and the advantages. The other men enjoy them, but will not come in. 1595 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! The honorable senator will have an opportunity to put his views before the Senate. 1595 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator has given me a reply which I have often heard. It is said by some persons that if preference is not given to unionists, the chances are that they will be boycotted by employers if they go before the Court. I can see the force of that argument, but I contend that we have no right to go a step further and say that a man who does hot. choose to join a union shall not be allowed to earn his living. If a hundred men in a union go before the Court, and the conditions are such that it is just to give preference to them, well and good ; but you have no business to turn round and say that no other man shall be allowed to engage in that occupation unless he becomes a member of a union if it requires him to support the parliamentary candidate whom it may select. 1596 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - That is not correct. 1596 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I ask the honorable senator to carry his mind back to the time when the Shearers Union made it a sine qua non of admission to that body that a man should subscribe to a rule binding him body and soul to the parliamentary candidate selected. This preference would have been taken away had not the union seen fit to modify the rule so as to give every decent, respectable man an opportunity of becoming a member of it, quite apart from his political views. 1596 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - They did alter the rule. 1596 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes, but now honorable senators on the other side want a law which will free them from all such difficulties. In the first instance what did they propose in regard to this very Bill ? They brought in a provision that preference should be granted to unionists, thereby taking all discretionary power from the Court. They advocated that if a union applied to the Court to settle certain disputes and troubles which they might have with their employers, preference should be granted to them irrespective of all other considerations. Fortunately the Bill has not come up to the Senate in exactly that form, because it does leave a certain amount of discretion to the Court, although it appears to be limited in a very marked degree. This clause, as originally introduced, provided that the proposed new section 40 should read - "40. The Court, by its award, or by order made on the application of any organization or person bound by the award, may prescribe a minimum rate of wages or remuneration, and in that case shall, on the application of any party to the industrial dispute, or of any organization or person bound by the award - make provision for fixing, in such manner and subject to such conditions as are specified in the award or order, a lower rate in the case of employees who are unable to earn the minimum wage so prescribed ; and direct that, as between members of organizations of employers or employees and other persons offering or desiring service or employment at the same time, preference shall be given to such members, other things being equal." As it appears before the Senate, it has been altered in such a way as to leave the granting of preference at the discretion of the Court. 1596 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Is this the clause which gives the Court power to consider " the welfare of society "? 1596 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes. Sub-section 2 of the proposed new section 40 reads - Whenever in the opinion of the Court, it is necessary for the prevention or settlement of the industrial dispute, or for the. maintenance of industrial peace, or for the welfare of society, to direct that preference shall be given to members of organizations, as in paragraph a of sub-section1 of this section provided, the Court shall so direct. Under the proposed new section 40, as originally introduced in this Bill, the grant of preference was really left entirely to the sweet will of organizations appearing before the Court, and the Court was given no power to consider whether it was right that an award of preference should be made or not. In the early days of the operation of the Arbitration Act in New South Wales, Mr. Justice Cohen construed the permission to the Court to grant preference into almost a direction from the Legislature that preference should be granted, unless in very exceptional cases. 1596 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - So it ought. 1596 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - A very wise interpretation. 1596 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Under the section which it is proposed in this clause to repeal, the Court, by its award, may prescribe a minimum rate of wages, and make provision for a lower rate in the case of employes unable to earn the minimum wage, and may also - direct that, as between members of organizations of employers or employees and other persons offering or desiring service or employment at the same time, preference shall be given to such members, other things being equal ; and appoint a tribunal to finally decide in what cases an employer or employee to whom any such direction applies may employ or be employed by a person who , is not a member of any such organization. There is some elasticity in the law as it stands to-day, but it would be entirely removed by this Bill, which would prevent the employment of any person who did not belong to an organization where an award of preference had been granted. That is a very important matter, because it is quite possible, though there might not be many such cases, to conceive that a man who, for one reason or another, objected to join an organization, although a very skilful tradesman, might be debarred from employment under the provisions of this Bill, whilst the elasticity of the existing Act would enable his case to be met. SenatorW. Russell. - I never belonged to a union. 1597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator has never had occasion to belong to one ; he has done remarkably well without belonging to a union. The existing section goes on to say - Provided always that, before any preference to members of organizations is directed as aforesaid, the President shall, by notification published in the Gazette and in such other publications, if any, as the Court directs, specify the industry and the industrial matter in relation to which it is proposed to direct such preference, make known that all persons and organizations interested and desirous of being heard, may, on or before a clay named, appear or be represented before the Court ; and the Court shall in manner prescribed hear all such persons and organizations so appearing or represented. That is another provision which we are here asked to repeal. Under this Bill the Judge of the Arbitration Court is called upon to deal with an industrial dispute from the point of view of the particular organization appearing before him. It may represent 200 or 300 men engaged in an industry which gives employment to 20,000 or 30,000 men. No man who is not a member of the organization appearing before the Court, or employer who is not cited to appear in connexion with the dispute, will have any opportunity of knowing what the organization seeks to obtain, or, if they know, of coming forward to state their views. They would have no locus standi in the Court. I ask honorable senators to say whether it is right or reasonable that men engaged in the great industries of the country should be bound by conditions which will materially affect them when they are given no opportunity to make known their views or submit arguments against the proposal made. I put it to the people of the country whether it is fair that a man should have to be bound by the decision of a Court, come to behind his back, and without his having the slightest knowledge of the conditions proposed to be applied to the industry in which he is engaged. 1597 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - They certainly will not be to his detriment. 1597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - An organization appears before the Court, which can only deal with the claims submitted to it. The President of the Conciliation and Arbitration Court will not be omnipotent, but he would need to be to do justice under this Bill. It has been strongly urged that the President will represent the community generally, but, unfortunately, the general community is about the last body considered by the organization in dealing with these matters. An organization claiming that the cost of living has been increased, appeals to the Court for an increase of wages from10sto 12s. per day. The Court hears the views of the members of the organization, and of a few employers in the industry. It may consider the weight of evidence to be on the side of the organization, and give an award of preference at the rate of pay asked for. But if the whole body of employés and employers engaged in the industry were given an opportunity to make their views known to the Court, and submit the evidence which they could adduce with respect to the conditions of the industry, its expenses, returns and difficulties, the Court might considerably modify the decision come to in their absence. In section 40 of the existing Act there is this further proviso - And, provided further that no such preference shall be directed to be given unless the application for such preference is, in the opinion of the Court, approved by a majority of those affected by the award, who have interests in common with the applicants. This safeguard is to be taken away, and it may be that a dozen men, or a. score, will secure an award of preference against the interests of hundreds engaged in the same industry. Honorable senators opposite profess to believe in majority rule, but, in industrial matters, they are content that a minority appearing before the Conciliation and Arbitration Court should be given the right to bind a majority. 1597 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - But whether the employés are members of the union or not, will not their interests be common ? 1597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - To a certain extent that may be so, but it is not right that an award should be given against the majority of those engaged in an industry. Under the existing Act, in certain circumstances, unionists are entitled to certain privileges, but not at the expense of the whole community, or of all others interested in the same industry. 1597 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The main object sought to be achieved is the prevention of strikes. 1597 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We need not argue that, as we are all agreed that, in a fair and reasonable way, strikes should be prevented, if it be possible to prevent them. 1598 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Will they ever be prevented ? 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - That is quite another question. 1598 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator Ready - The party on this side are trying hard to prevent them. 1598 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - They have not done so yet. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I am afraid that honorable senators opposite have yet much to learn. There is a provision in section 40, of the existing Act, under which, if the Court directs that preference shall be given, it may subsequently suspend or qualify the direction as it thinks fit, if the rules of the organization are burdensome or oppressive, or do not provide reasonable conditions for admission to, or continuance in membership, or if the organization has acted unfairly or unjustly to any of its members in the matter of preference. 1598 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - They never do. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Then why repeal this provision of the existing law, if, as the honorable senator says, the organizations have no burdensome or oppressive rules, do not enforce unreasonable conditions of admission to, or continuance in membership, and do not act unfairly to 'any of their members? The honorable senator must have had his ears closed to the statements which have been made on this subject from time to time. The Government are proposing to repeal a law which has hitherto worked fairly and reasonably, and which must commend itself to every unbiased mind. An honorable senator interjected that the object was to put an end to strikes, but, in doing so, all should be treated justly and alike. We could put an end to strikes if we had gaols large enough in which to confine every man who strikes. No honorable senator would contend that that would be a proper way in which to deal with a strike. 1598 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - Mr. Wade takes that view. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - He does not ; but I am not concerned about fighting Mr. Wade's battles for him. He is well able to do that himself. 1598 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - He needs all the assistance the honorable senator can give him. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The Government are, in this Bill, proposing to do away with reasonable and proper safeguards. Honorable senators are aware that a work entitled Australia's Awakening has been written and. published by a gentleman who occupies a very prominent position in unionism in this country. The writer gives an extraordinary recipe for the making of good unionists. Honorable senators will, no doubt, recollect the story he relates of a non-unionist desiring to go to work. The first thing the unionists did to him was to duck him. The object was to see whether they could not bring him to understand the value of unionism. When one ducking did not serve, a second was tried; and, after a third ducking, as the writer of the book humorously says, they discovered that the method adopted was an excellent one to impress people with the correctness of the principles of unionism. 1598 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The honorable senator should give us the other side of the story, if he wishes to be fair. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Senator Long can do that for himself, later. Will honorable senators contend, in view of the adoption of such a practice, that unions provide reasonable conditions for admission to their organizations ? The provisions of the existing Act at least protect a man's liberty of action to a certain extent. 1598 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - Men have not had much liberty of action hitherto. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I think that, on the contrary, the honorable senator must agree that, on some occasions, there has been a great deal of licence, let alone liberty of action, exhibited. I know that one Judge, in reporting upon certain cases that occurred in New South Wales, described the condition of" affairs existing at one time in that State as being practically civil war. The Government are proposing an alteration of the law in connexion with the granting of preference to unionists, and are doing away with the safeguards provided in the existing Act for the protection of men who do not desire to become unionists, and they are further proposing that people may have judgments given behind their backs in matters in which they are directly interested. 1598 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story -The safeguards in the previous measure made it useless. 1598 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - My reply to that interjection is that men have a right to be heard in matters in which they are deeply concerned. I ask honorable senators opposite to bear in mind that the President of the Court may be Mr. Jones to-day, but Mr. Black to-morrow, and I ask them, also, whether they would be willing to take any Judge from any of our existing Courts and give him power, as President of the Arbitration Court, to deal with all industrial matters as he thinks tit. 1599 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - The Judges are themselves unionists. 1599 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Every man of a reputable character can obtain admission to the union to which the honorable senator suggests the Judges belong, if he will give his time and attention to the study which will enable him to pass prescribed examinations as a test of his mental qualifications. 1599 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - A man is not allowed to work under that union unless he does so. 1599 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That union does not tell its members to vote for its political candidate. 1599 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The Labour unions do not do so, either. 1599 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The Shearers' Union sought to do so. 1599 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - Look at the stand taken against Mr. Justice Higinbotham for the part he took in the 1890 strike.' 1599 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We have nothing to do with that now. lt may be that men who have taken a prominent part in connexion with public" matters have failed to obtain the recognition to which they have been entitled, but that has nothing to do with the Bill before the Senate. 1599 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - It shows the attitude of mind of some people. 1599 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I say that the proposed alteration of the existing law is an alteration for the worse, and is not in the interests, not merely of a particular class, but of the "whole of the people primarily concerned in an equitable law on the subject.. 1599 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Has not the honorable senator confidence in the Arbitration Court ? 1599 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I have every possible confidence in the Court ; but I would ask the honorable senator whether it is because he has no confidence in the Court that he proposes to assist the Government in doing away with certain guiding principles contained in the existing Act ? Are honorable senators opposite prepared to leave any dispute between employe and employer to be dealt with by a Judge in any way he thinks fit? Some of these provisions will require a good deal of consideration before we know what they mean. Paragraph b, of clause 2, contains a definition of " Industrial dispute." It provides that an industrial dispute means a dispute extending beyond the limits of any one State, and includes a dispute in relation to employment in an industry carried on by the Commonwealth or by a State, or by any public authority constituted under the1 Commonwealth or a State. This definition, therefore, purports to bind a State. Railways are managed by the States of Australia. Some time ago an application was made to the Arbitration Court by the railway employes. We know> the fate of that application. Ultimately, the case found its way to the High Court, which held that the attempt to control a State was ultra vires. Yet we find a definition, having the same object, included in this Bill. Whether honorable senators consider it desirable or not that the Commonwealth Arbitration Court should have such controlling powers, how unwise it must be to attempt to assume such powers when we have before us the judgment of the High Court, -showing that we do not possess them. The provision to .which I have referred appears to be beyond our powers under the Constitution. A State is entitled to carry on its own functions, and to pay its employes as it chooses. It is not, nor should it be, within the power of the Commonwealth to dictate to a State as to the amount of money it should provide for its services. We cannot reasonably do what we are purporting to do by this Bill. We have always to bear in mind that our position is, in many respects, very different from that of other Federations. Take the Dominion of Canada. The powers of the Federal Government there are absolutely different from burs, and are based upon different principles. Under the Canadian Constitution, the provincial Governments are really under the control, and subject to, the authority of the Dominion Government. But in Australia the States are sovereign States. They have absolutely the same powers as the Commonwealth in its- sphere with reference to all matters which are not specifically handed over to the Commonwealth under the Constitution. Why should we make a farce of our legislation by attempting to pass an enactment which the- High Court has already told us we have no power to pass? This is a serious blemish from the stand-point of any person, no matter what his views may be with regard to the broad principles enunciated in the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act of 1904. Again, it is provided in this Bill that the certificate of the Registrar is to be conclusive with regard to certain specified persons being members of specified organizations. I do not take so much exception to that provision as has been taken by other honorable senators, because I realize that we want to free the Arbitration Court, as far as possible, from technicalities, such as may arise from time to time. And I should like to direct particular attention to clause 8, which provides for a power of amendment in connexion with industrial disputes. Under this clause, the Court may, at any time before the determination of an industrial dispute, allow the amendment, on such terms as it thinks fit, of a plaint. And there is also power for the Court to grant relief, although such relief has not been formally applied for. I recognise that those are valuable provisions from the point of view of those who desire to get rid of technicalities in the Arbitration Court. I* quite agree with that desire. Possibly, it may please honorable members opposite to see a lawyer assuming that attitude. But that brings me to the provision in regard to the representation of parties by counsel. Section 27 of the principal Act is to be amended by eliminating from it the power at present held by the President of the Court, to permit the parties to be represented by counsel. 1600 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Would that prohibition apply to appeals to the High Court from the Arbitration Court? 1600 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No. The original Act provides that an organization may _ be represented by one of its members or officers, and that any party not being an organization may be represented by an employe of that party; but that no party shall, except by consent of all the parties, or by leave of the President, be represented by counsel or solicitor. It is now proposed to eliminate that provision as to the leave of the President, and to provide that it shall be within the power only of the parties themselves to consent to the representation of each side by counsel, solicitor, or paid agent. The value of leaving in the words " by leave of the President ' ' is this : Many complicated matters, involving law as well as fact, have to be dealt with by the President of the Arbitration Court. There is no Judge who ever sat on a Bench who would not gladly welcome the assistance of counsel when intricate facts were involved. It is impossible for any Judge to be absolutely possessed of full knowledge on every point that may be raised in connexion with a dispute. The Judge may be a good case lawyer, thoroughly acquainted with all the decisions that have been given by the various Courts; but, even so, he may not have in mind all the cases which counsel might be able to bring before him to assist him in arriving at a judgment. Again, arguments may be adduced by counsel from various decisions, or matters may be put from a different stand-point from that which the Judge would be inclined to take. It, therefore, becomes extremely desirable that, the Judge should have the assistance of skilled men whenever he thinks it desirable. I have been asked whether I have confidence in the President of the Court. I have the highest possible opinion of the gentlemen upon our Bench. I believe that their training has been such that they have but one object in view, and that is to act fairly and impartially with regard to all matters that come before them. There are great traditions attaching to the Bench which have been handed down to the present generation of Judges. They desire to live up to those traditions. Of course, the Bench has occasionally been disgraced by men who have not so-lived. But such cases are very exceptional. Our Judges, I am satisfied, desire to be guided by the best traditions. And for that very reason they will- welcome the assistance of counsel in order that cases may be laid before them in the clearest possible manner. The principal Act did not permit employes to be harried by employers through the engagement of counsel or attorneys. Employers had no power to introduce professional men of their own volition. Counsel could only appear when both parties were desirous of having skilled assistance, or when the Judge thought it desirable that they should be represented. If the President of the Court gave such a direction in a particular case, we mav depend upon it that he did it for good reasons - probably because he considered the matter involved to be of such importance that it was necessary to have counsel to assist him in coming to a conclusion. It will be a great mistake to omit the provision in question from the principal Act. Of course, if counsel may not appear, paid agents ought not to be allowed to appear. 1601 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Would the secretary of a union who was in receipt of a salary be regarded as a paid agent? 1601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - If unions which have paid secretaries may depute these men to represent them, there will be an easy way of getting round die law. Unions may pay men as secretaries big salaries to represent them before the Arbitration Court. It is on all grounds a very grave mistake to rob the Court of the power of getting any assistance which may be thought desirable. 1601 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The Court is. not very likely to want assistance, because disputes will deal with matters of fact. 1601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - But, notwithstanding that, there are many cases in which points of law arise. Honorable senators opposite have advocated the conferring of all sorts of powers upon the Commonwealth Arbitration Court. They would make it paramount over all the States in connexion with industrial matters. But, fortunately for the States, the law at present does not allow that condition of things to exist. The Commonwealth Court may not be invoked unless a dispute extends beyond a particular State. How is it possible for one man sitting in Melbourne or in any other city of Australia to know the local circumstances prevailing all over the Commonwealth? The climatic, geographical, and social conditions in one State are absolutely different from those in another. 1601 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Surely the conditions do not differ very much. 1601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD .- Indeed, they do. The Judge of the Arbitration Court, in giving an award, has to take into consideration the cost of living, not only in Melbourne, but in the Northern Territory. 1601 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Cannot the honorable senator go elsewhere than to the Northern Territory for a comparison? 1601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Well, there are vast differences in the cost of living between Melbourne and North Queensland. Moreover, a man may be able to work for ten hours at a stretch in Victoria, whilst five hours would be sufficient in Northern Australia. Then there are necessarily differences in wages depending on the differences in cost of living. 1601 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator Ready - Does not the Judge give different awards as to wages ? 1601 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - But here we are taking from the Judge the power to get assistance to enable him to arrive at an accurate conclusion as to what was in the mind of Parliament when the legislation in question was passed. He will have to construe the law as best he can. He is not to be bound by the law of evidence, but is to decide everything according to equity and good conscience. Do honorable senators think that there is any one man who is able, in a vast country like this, to decide satisfactorily in all cases that are brought before him, and without legal assistance to ascertain what the mind of Parliament was? I have pointed out that in regard to one question this Bill proposes to express the mind of Parliament emphatically. I allude to the question of preference. The Commonwealth High Court may interpret the provision of this Bill in that regard as being unconstitutional, but, at all events, it is evidently the desire of Parliament that preference shall be granted. I hope that the "Government will find die law, as amended, more satisfactory to work than it appears to be at present. One great complaint against this legislation is that there has been only one class recognised as being entitled to relief or consideration, and that is the wage-earning class. Naturally everybody desires to make his conditions as favorable as possible, but these trade organizations represent only a limited number of the wage-earning class. I do not suppose that a fourth, perhaps not a fifth, of the wage-earning class belong to the trade unions. By establishing an aristocracy in Labour, the trade unions seek to interfere with the 'rights of the non-unionists. No man will put his money into an industry which is dependent upon labour unless he can see his way to get a fair return on his capital and skill, so that we have to consider the employer as well as the employed But there is also the vast mass of the people to be considered - the consumers. As we raise the cost of the production of goods, so we raise the cost of living to every one, and, of course, rents, also, must rise. Indeed, the prices of everything must go up. The larger the wage which an employer is called upon to pay, the larger the return which he must get on his investment. My honorable friends on the other side can only go so far and no farther. They should never forget that there is such a thing as killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If they are going to raise the cost of carrying on industries beyond a reasonable figure, then the man who erects a house must ask a larger rent in order to get a reasonable return on the increased cost of construction. 1602 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If the honorable senator went to a country where1s. a day is paid he would find out the difference. 1602 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator need not have made that remark, because I am only warning the members of the Labour party against the probable effects of this legislation. Possibly they do not care about our warnings, but we on this side have to consider what will be the ultimate result of this legislation. It may on its face appear to be very seductive and alluring, but it may prove the very reverse. And I speak as one who believes in men being paid a good wage for their labour. 1602 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - The honorable member's line of reasoning is that low wages mean prosperity. 1602 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It is possible for honorable senators, by this legislation, to raise the cost of everything to such an extent that they will destroy the very objects which they are attempting to achieve. I believe in men being paid good wages for their work. I believe that a man who is paid a good wage does much better work than a man who is underpaid. A man should always receive a good wage for his work, and give good value in return. 1602 K3G 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W Russell - Does the honorable senator believe that marriage is a luxury for only the rich? 1602 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I think that every man ought to be in a position to marry. If the honorable senator is referring to a certain remark which was made some time ago, that a Judge has not to take into consideration anything more than the individual, I do not agree with it. A man ought to have an Adequate wage on which to maintain a wife and family, and give them a decent education. We must always act within reason. Honorable senators on the other side may depend on it that a great many of the criticisms which they hear hurled against Bills which they are in accord with are made with the very best intention, and that is to make them perfect, just, and equitable to every man, woman, and child in the community. We cannot legislate for one class without taking into consideration how our legislation is likely to react on other classes. 1602 K78 Queensland 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER . - I am surprised that no honorable senator on the other side who professes, and who no doubt has a great interest in the measure, has chosen to reply to the speech of Senator Gould. I am really astonished to find that the Bill is being treated in this way by its supporters. I think I am entitled to say that on a measure which is of equal importance to wage-earners and to capitalists, large or small, who are engaged in industries, the other side should have paid, if not to us, to the important question itself, the courtesy of assisting us to understand the probable application and effect of this proposed legislation. Perhaps, knowing that they have the numbers, they think that that is a sufficient reason why the Bill should be forced through the Senate without any assistance being rendered by them to us. 1602 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Did I not speak on the Bill ? 1602 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - If the honorable senator thinks that when he speaks no little dog, not even myself, should bark, then, of course, I shall sit down; but our parliamentary institutions do not yet admit even of the honorable senator posing as a " Sir Oracle," so that when he speaks, not only shall nobody bark but nobody shall even speak. 1602 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The honorable senator said that nobody on this side spoke. 1602 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - The honorable senator introduced the Bill in a fairly brief but, so far as it went, comprehensive speech. I beg to protest, for what it may be worth, against the attitude taken up by honorable senators on the other side. So long as this is a deliberative body, surely measures are entitled to be considered from the various points of view from which they may present themselves to honorable senators. 1602 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - We do that in the caucus. 1602 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - Quite so. 1602 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - Would any words from this side of the Chamber alter the honorable senator's intention to vote against the Bill? 1602 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I am asked by interjection to say whether any explanations or observations from the other side would alter pur views on this measure? 1603 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - No, the honorable senator's personal views. 1603 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Why did not the honorable senator wait a while before he rose to speak t 1603 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I waited' until the President' was putting the motion for the second reading of the Bill. There was no sign of an honorable senator on the other side wishing to speak. I shall not admit that any observations from honorable senators on the other side, who have given very careful consideration to this important question, would not alter my opinions. I hope that the other side will meet us in a similar spirit, and that in regard to any observations which we may make, and which may have the weight of argument in them, they will be open to change their views. 1603 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If the Age cannot move the honorable senator, how can we ? 1603 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I shall not obtrude that delicate and sore subject into this discussion. I may have to deal with it in another way. I take it that both sides of the Chamber are anxious to bring to the solution of this very great, question the highest intelligence, combined with the knowledge obtained by observation of industrial operations, and of the effect of this class legislation. I have publicly placed before a larger audience than even this Parliament a desire for further information on a most important social experiment which will try to achieve two objects. One is to improve the conditions of the worker, and, while doing that consistently with equity to the capital on which industry must largely depend, to see if we cannot find, if not a new paradise, at least some vistas through which we can make the conditions of life of the worker and of society somewhat higher and better than they have been. I deprecate strongly every insinuation that there is any party in any Parliament which has a monopoly of that social sympathy which begets a desire to lift the masses on to a higher level, and whatever criticism may be offered in our own Parliament from any side and from any point of view, it would be well to assume that the critics are not animated by class hostility and do not speak from a purely class stand-point. Further, I object to it being insinuated that because we subject measures of this kind to criticism or controversy, which is more or less intended to sift them to the very bottom, we are necessarily hostile either to the principles of the measure or to the advancement of those whom its provisions are intended to benefit. 1603 K3G 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W Russell - The honorable senator belonged to die Fusion party which put on the gag. 1603 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I object to these interjections, and to the raking up of class prejudices on an occasion' when we are rightly subjecting an important measure tr> criticism. When you' find persons repeatedly proclaiming to the world at large that unless you see eye to eye and line to line with them, without the alteration of even a comma or the dotting of an " i," in your heart you are an enemy of the great body of workers* you are reminded of the Pharisee who assumed to himself that, because he always stood to the letter of the law, he was better than others who were teaching higher principles of life. Any such conduct shows a bad spirit on the part of those who advocate this Bill. I ask honorable senators to assume for a moment that while we are criticising its provisions we are just as honest in our sympathy with regard to its main object, and just as sincerely desirous to do for al! classes of workers what they wish to do for a particular class, consistently with the welfare of society and of the country at large, as they are. 1603 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Will the honorable senator now get back to the Bill ? 1603 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - The interjections, sir, have led me a little off the track. I think that the Senate should listen with some interest and attention to the discussion of the great principles involved in themeasure. 1603 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - On an important measure, sir, the Senate should be properlyconstituted. [Quorum formed.] 1603 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - It is frequently urged, with the intention of gibing at those who criticise these measures, that this legislation is reform. The principal Act was introduced as reform legislation. The intention of _ the reformers, as expressed in that Act, is being made more clear now, and all the time those who are in favour of this kind of legislation are assumed to be in favour of reform and advanced legislation, and, by an almost necessary inference, those who criticise and oppose this Bill are assumed to be Conservatives, and opposed to reform. I wish to inform the Vice-President of the Executive Council that, with respect to preference to unionists, the original Act and the amendments proposed upon it represent, if not letter for letter, certainly in spirit, a resurrection of a whole mausoleum of. slabs of legislation from a dead, despotic and barbaric past. What do we know historically about, this class of legislation, giving a single individual power to fix wages, and immense powers generally over labour and industry? Where do we find the origin of it all, and almost word for word the rules and regulations which control and regulate the conduct of various kinds of workmen ? We must trace the records of the industrial history, not of five hundred or one thousand years ago, but of three thousand or four thousand years ago, to find the origin of these tilings. Therefore all the critics, newspapers, and others, who brand those who venture to criticise these measures as being Conservative and opposed to reform legislation, use terms which are so misrepresentative of the actual facts that one wonders that in using them they do not turn pale or green. I wish it to be understood that, in opposing this Bill, I am opposing provisions for the origin of which we must look to the past, and the principles of which were rejected in the last half of the nineteenth century. As has been admitted by the Vice-President of the Executive Council, and as a most cursory glance through the Bill will show, it is proposed to enlarge the powers conferred upon the Arbitration Court under the present Act. And this leads me to an objection I have to the Bill on principle. 1604 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Not on interest? 1604 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - There is very little interest taken in the matter, apparently, by honorable senators. 1604 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I direct attention to that fact, and I think there ought to be a quorum. [Quorum formed.] 1604 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - There are two methods of dealing with industrial disputes which have been considered very exhaustively in Australia. One is that of compulsory conciliation and arbitration under the Federal jurisdiction, limited by the terms of the Constitution. Another is to be found in the establishment of Wages Boards. Both seek to attain the same end ; but the object of one is to bring, as far as possible, industrial operations under one Federal tribunal, while the other is based upon the idea that the State Parliaments, having almost supreme and sovereign powers within the boundaries of the States, nave the right to set up their own machinery for dealing with industrial disputes in the full light of their knowledge of local circumstances. The two principles are being made in this Bill tq conflict one with the other. 1604 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - I think we should have a quorum present. [Quorum formed.'} 1604 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - Those who know the history of this Bill are aware that the Government have recognised that, in introducing it, they have transgressed one of the principles of the Constitution. We who subject this measure to criticism, and some objection, recognise that if there are two conflicting jurisdictions dealing with the same matter, sooner or later one must be supreme, and must oust the other. I believe that I do not misunderstand the Bill, or misrepresent the intentions of the Government, when I say that it is their object to give the Commonwealth, so far as they can under the Constitution, supreme power to deal with industrial matters as against the States. Further than that, I believe that it is the intention of the Government to so test the powers of this Parliament under the Constitution in order that, if it is found we have not supreme control over all industrial operations in Australia, they may ask for such an amendment of the Constitution as will give us that power. While some of us have watched patiently, and in the different States have, to some extent, encouraged the idea that Wages Boards established by the State authorities should have supreme jurisdiction over industrial matters within the States, we now see a movement by legislation which can have no other effect, and which, I believe, is intended only to have the effect of' destroying, or weakening as much as possible, the work of the Wages Boards. Prior to Federation, the State Parliaments endeavoured to regulate and control industrial operations. They adopted the principle of Wages Boards as against the principle of compulsory arbitration and conciliation; and I have no doubt that the measure with which we are now asked to deal will, sooner or later, bring about a conflict between the States and the Commonwealth. If there is to be one tribunal established to deal with industrial questions, let me ask what tribunal is better able to determine the conditions that should prevail in any industry than the tribunal set up by the State in which the industry is carried on ? 1604 K3G 0 0 RUSSELL, William Senator W Russell - The honorable senator forgets the Conservative Legislative Councils. 1604 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - Let me remind Senator W. Russell that it is honorable senators opposite who are Conservative in this matter. It is they who are digging up the past, and we, who are asking that they should carefully consider what they are doing, are really on the side of reform. The State Parliaments have supreme power over all industrial operations, except those which may involve a dispute extending beyond the limits of any one State. Under the Constitution, the Commonwealth has really but a very limited power in the industrial sphere, whilst the State Parliaments, acting strictly within the* limits of their jurisdiction, possess immense power in controlling industrial operations in Australia. 1605 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Some of the States have not yet adopted any of this legislation at all. 1605 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - There is only one State in the Commonwealth in which legislation of this kind has not been passed. We have found that, by political pressure, or what is stronger and all-compelling, the pressure of public opinion, the State Parliaments have been induced to make some experiments by which industrial peace and efficiency may be secured, and in all but one of the States tribunals have been set up which are in a position to deal with these matters thoroughly and completely. 1605 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I ask the honorable senator to discuss the principles of the Bill. It does not deal with the powers of the States. 1605 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Might I point out. sir, with all respect, that, inasmuch as the Bill proposes to give greater powers to the Arbitration Court than are given under the existing Act, and may possibly involve a diminution of the powers of the States, I am not out of order in referring to the powers of the States. 1605 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - I think that we should have a quorum present to hear this argument. [Quorum formed.] 1605 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Might I suggest, sir, as another reason for the argument I have used, that it is proposed to include in the original Act the public servants of the different States. Such a proposal may reasonably be said to involve an invasion of the powers of the States, and would justify argument at some length. 1605 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Inferentially the honorable senator would be at liberty to argue that that might involve an interference with the powers of the States, but my complaint is that the honorable senator has not touched upon the principles of the Bill since he commenced to speak. So far as I have been able to understand him., he has not been dealing with the provisions of this Bill. 1605 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - I thought that I was entitled to refer at some length to the possibility of a conflict between Commonwealth and State legislation on thu matter, and unless you distinctly rule me out of order, I propose to continue my argument, and I hope I shall be allowed the liberty which has been largely extended to honorable senators in dealing with this matter. 1605 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - On the second reading the honorable senator should discuss the principles of the Bill as an amendment of the existing Act. He is aware that it is submitted as an amendment 'of an Act which is now upon the statute-book, and the question whether it is a constitutional proposal or not does not arise. 1605 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - May I be permitted to say that, in connexion with certain of the amendments proposed, some question of Commonwealth and State jurisdiction may arise. For instance, the proposed power to deal with industries established by a State is one which, as I have already said, might involve the jurisdiction of the two authorities. If Senator St. Ledger were to confine himself to the discussion of such matters, I think he would be in order. 1605 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I do not wish to prevent the honorable senator from referring to such matters at all. But he was discussing the question from the point of view of the constitutionality of the Bill. That is what I objected to. 1605 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I shall accept the suggestion which has been made, and confine my remarks more closely within the scope of the Bill. Let me say that, inasmuch as it is proposed in this Bill to give greater powers to the Court, in making an award of preference to unionists, it must be admitted that that involves the constitutional question. Therefore I beg to give the warning that honorable senators opposite will find themselves upon this matter in conflict with the Constitution. Where, I ask, is it distinctly laid down in the Constitution that preference shall be given to unionists? Our legislation on this question is based on a paragraph in section 51. That provision is confined strictly to the settlement of disputes. I can find in it no allusion to preference. Where do the Government find it enacted that preference can be declared? The Vice-President of the Executive Council, instead of meeting this difficulty, skimmed over it in such a way as to suggest that he felt unable to cope with it. Those of us who are familiar with the records relative to the framing of the Constitution know that the paragraph relating to conciliation and arbitration occupied the Convention for a long time. It was considered because of the fact that an industrial dispute of great magnitude had threatened disaster to Australia. The Convention knew the injury inflicted on Australia by reason of industrial conflicts'. They therefore desired to give power to the Federal Parliament. But they went no further than to declare that the Commonwealth Court should have power to deal with a dispute extending beyond the limits of any one State. The framers of the Constitution were quite well aware that a section of trade unionists commonly called Socialists desired to have preference to unionists declared. That demand has been made for a long time. On the other hand, some trade unionists were not in favour of the principle of preference. At all events, the framers of the Constitution knew what the principle of preference was. They knew the conflicting views entertained regarding it. But they refrained from mentioning preference in the Constitution for obvious reasons - because if preference to unionists were to be given the State Legislatures had power to grant it completely. 1606 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Will the honorable senator ask leave to continue his speech tomorrow ? 1606 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Why should he not finish it now? 1606 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER - I shall be happy to ask leave to continue to-morrow. Leave granted ; debate adjourned. 1606 adjournment 1606 Motion (by Senator McGregor) pro posed - That the Senate do now adjourn. 1606 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Defence to a telegram which I received last night. It is from Perth, Western Australia, and reads as follows - Sending contingent Kalgoorlie ten days' time. Scheme in columns west August eighth. Local military officers refuse loan equipment on grounds Board opposed. Will you try secure influence Minister. Advise at earliest. - simons. The sender of the telegram is Mr. J. J. Simons, who is President of the Board of Directors of the Australian Natives Association, Western Australia. He is also secretary of the Young Australians' League Tours Committee, an organization which has organized several tours, not only to various parts of Western. Australia, but to the eastern States. Tours for boys have been successfully conducted, and tours for girls are now being organized. The Defence Department has been asked to assist in this movement by lending rifles, &c.,inordertotrainour " young ideas how to shoot." But it appears that some difficulty has arisen in connexion with the contemplated tour of the western gold-fields. The military authorities in Western Australia have refused to lend equipment that has hitherto been lent. Therefore, I desire to ask the Minister of Defence whether he will take steps in the matter, and see that the facilities which have hitherto been granted in connexion with tours of this description shall be granted on the present occasion? If not, I should like to know what reason is adduced by the Defence Department for its refusal? 1606 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What were the facilities that were granted? 1606 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I think the Defence Department was asked to lend rifles, to enable the boys to compete with boys in other States. 1606 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Are they cadets? 1606 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - Many of them are. 1606 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Does the honorable senator want rifles lent to boys who are not cadets ? 1606 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I would not have the Defence Department decline to lend a rifle to a boy for such a purpose. 1606 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - No rifles are concerned in this particular request. 1606 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I do not think that the matter at issue just now is one of rifles. I have brought it forward in order that the Minister of Defence may make publicly a reply to my question. 1606 K0F Western Australia ALP Minister of Defence 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE . - The matter that Senator Needham has brought forward has come before me in the shape of a telegram from the Commandant of the Military Forces in Western Australia. He informed me that he had declined to comply with a request that was made to him to lend military equipment, and asked for instructions as to what attitude he was to take up. I have indorsed his action. I have been compelled to take up that position, not because of this particular request, but because a practice is growing up, not only in Western Australia; but throughout the Commonwealth, of various organizations - boy scouts, Sunday schools, quadrille parties, bazaar committees, and so forth-which are concerned in organizing tours, picnics, and the like, applying to the Defence Department for the loan of equipment. The Department has been asked to lend such things as tents, mattresses, knives, forks, and spoons, and a' variety of other things. 1607 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Can I get such things for electioneering purposes ? 1607 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - This practice has grown until it has become really a serious abuse. While I was Minister of Defence in the previous Fisher Administration, while Mr. Joseph Cook was Minister, and again during the second period of my administration, complaints have come from the military authorities regarding the growth of the practice. They have complained that they never could tell in what state they would find their equipment owing to its having been lent. They never knew how much equipment they had available for military purposes. Of course, the various bodies that have borrowed equipment in this manner undertook to -make good any damage, but honorable senators must be well aware that if you lend a tent or . a mattress very often, although no specific damage may be done, at the same time the continual lending leads to deterioration. In this way the property of the taxpayers, which has been purchased for defence purposes, has been seriously impaired. The particular organization alluded to by Senator Needham is not, as he seemed to me to indicate, connected with the Australian Natives' Association, although the gentleman whose name has been quoted is connected with that body. It is an organization of boys and their parents, which has taken up the very laudable idea of organizing tours to various parts of Australia. The organization is at present engaged in arranging a tour of the gold-fields. The Defence Department has been asked to lend such articles as knives, forks, spoons, and one or two other things which 1 forget for the time being. Of course, the Department has these articles in store. But they are there for the purposes of the annual camps and for any week-end camps that may be held. Honorable senators may know that week-end camps are frequently held in connexion with corps in various parts of the country. It has sometimes been found, after a weekend camp has been arranged, that the equipment was deficient because it had been lent to some private body. I have come to the conclusion, therefore, that the time has arrived when an end should be put to this practice. To show that there is no prejudice, I thought it best to commence putting an end to it in connexion with an affair in my own State. I have therefore directed that, unless otherwise, ordered, the military authorities are not to give leave for the use of military equipment for private institutions. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1607 18:20:00 Senate adjourned at 6.20 p.m.