1910-10-21 4 1 0 SENATE 4974 0 Senate. 1910-10-21 The President took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 4974 Questions 4974 4974 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - In this morning's newspaper the Minister of Defence is reported to have made some comments on a cablegram announcing the placing of orders for the construction of cruisers in British ship-yards, some of them being intended for Australia. He is reported to have made a reference to what has been done to carry out, I take it, the agreement arrived at by the previous Government. Has he any objection to tell the Senate what steps other than those which he mentioned have been taken to complete the Australian unit ? 4974 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - If the honorable senator will look up my speech on the Naval Defence Bill he will find that I went fully into the question. 4974 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There is nothing supplementary to that? 4974 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - No. 4974 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I gathered from the newspaper report of your statement that something had transpired since then. 4974 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The only thing which may have transpired since then regarding the three cruisers - and I am not sure that it has - is that the, Admiralty called for tenders for the construction of a number of cruisers. They informed us of the prices submitted, and told us in their communication that they proposed to distribute orders among a number of different yards, and suggested two firms that should construct the two Australian cruisers which were to be built in England, and asked for our concurrence. I forget the names of the firms in question, but I think that Campbell Laird and Company was one of them. We have concurred in the. orders being placed with the firms, and, in addition to constructing a cruiser, one of them will supply the material for a third cruiser. I am not sure as to whether I mentioned that in my speech, or whether it has occurred since that event but with that exception I think that I explained everything else when I introduced the Naval Defence Bill. 4974 4974 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I desire to ask the Minister of Defence the following questions without notice: - Has he yet received any reply from the Premier of Western Australia, re the dismissal of Warder Wise? If so, what is the nature of the reply? Has his attention been directed to the following telegram from Perth in this morning's Age . - In the Legislative Council the case of J. Wise, whose dismissal from his post as warder at Fremantle gaol was discussed in the Senate on Wednesday, was brought up by Mr. Kirwan. The Colonial Secretary said, in reply, that the exigencies of the prison service necessitated the Controller-General requesting the resignations from the defence forces of two warders in Fremantle, as their military duties interfered with their duties as warders. One sent in his resignation, but the other warder (Wise) persisted in refusing, though warned of the consequence. The action of Government servants in joining the militia and volunteer forces met with the approval of the Ministry, provided the military service did not interfere with their duty in the departments. The Commonwealth Government recognised the difficulties attending the matter, and the Amending Defence Bill provided for exemption from service of persons employed in the police and prison service. Will the Minister again communicate with the Premier and Colonial Secretary of Western Australia, pointing out that the exemption is only in time of war, with a view of securing the reinstatement of Warder Wise? 4975 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - Yesterday evening I received from the Premier of Western Australia the following reply : - Regret delay replying your telegram thirteenth. Warder Wise was requested to resign military forces as duties interfered with prison duties. State Commandant was consulted and agreed without hesitation to grant free discharge, recognising nature of two duties must clash - see section 7, amendment Defence Act. Wise was warned of consequences, but persisted in refusing, and was dismissed for disobedience of orders Controller-General. In view of section referred to there appear to be no grounds for reconsideration. Yesterday I instructed the Military Commandant of Western Australia by wire to report on the matter from his point of view. In regard to what Senator Needham has stated, it is perfectly correct, as I mentioned the other evening, that the section referred to does not exempt men from training, but exempts men from service in time of war. 4975 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That applies to men under 26 years of age? 4975 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - Yes. I am making representations to the Government of Western Australia, and the point which Senator Needham mentioned will, together with others, be submitted for consideration. 4975 4975 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator RAE - Has the Minister of Defence yet received any report in relation, to the Williamstown markers' incident? 4975 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - No report is available yet, nor do I anticipate that one will be available this week for the reason that the Rifle Association officials, who will have to be called and give evidence, are busily engaged. I have instructed the Inspector-General to treat the matter as urgent, and report thereon at the earliest possible moment. 4975 4975 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - Can the Vice-President of the Executive Council state at what period of the sessions 1908 and 1909 the report in connexion with the administration of Papua was laid on the table of the Senate? 4975 KTF ALP 1 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - In 1909 the report was not laid on the table of the Senate at all, but it was presented to the other House on the 7 th December. In 1908 the report was not presented to the Senate, but it was laid on the table of the other House on the nth December. 4975 4975 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - Is the Minister representing the Minister of Trade and Customs now in a position to acquaint the Senate with the total number of Kanakas in Queensland? 4975 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - In reply to this question which was asked a few days ago, I have received from the Minister of Trade and Customs the following communication : - With reference to your inquiries regarding the number of South Sea Island Kanakas residing in Queensland, I beg to inform you the Collector, Queensland, advises that the Immigration Agent estimates the number at 1,400, including 300 estimated as remaining out of 865 granted State exemptions in 1884. The exemption conditions required the person to be over twenty-one years of age and to have resided in Queensland at least five years. No permits have been granted by the Queensland Government since 1884. 4975 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator WALKER - Can the Minister state the number of Kanakas in New South' Wales? I may mention that there are a good many in the northern district of that State. 4975 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I do not think that it will be possible to give the number of Kanakas in New South Wales until the results of the census are known, for the simple reason that as they were not there under statute law no record was kept. 4975 miscellaneous Senator PEARCE laid upon the table the fol lowing paper : - Contraband Goods : Rewards to officers of Customs, Sydney, for seizures effected from 1st June, 1903, to 1st February, 1904. 4975 bill 4975 Debate resumed from 2nd October(vide page 4910), on motion by Senator McGregor - That this Bill be now read a second time. Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON (South Australia) [10.39]. - I wish to give some reasons why I strongly oppose this Bill, and why I intend to vote against the second reading, and I wish also to appeal to my honorable friends of the Ministerial party to reconsider the attitude which they take up, both as to the subject-matter of the Bill and the object which they apparently have in view. I cannot agree with some of my honorable friends on this side, and regard the situation as one of despair, or even of dismay. 4976 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - It is full of hope. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think so. It is very seldom that there is a dark cloud without some spot of brightness in it, and when things come to the worst they generally mend. I think that in this measure we have reached about the worst point we have approached during the existence of this Parliament, and my belief is that when the measure comes into operation, and when the injustice and inequality of its incidence become known and felt, there will arise a wave of reaction amongst the people of this country that will sweep it away and deal out to its authors the fate which is generally in store for those who do wrong. 4976 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The experience of New Zealand has not been in that direction. 4976 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The people will be so pleased that they will demand more. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am very glad to know that these remarks at the very inception of what I have to say have gone home so effectively that there are interjections from I do not know how many of my honorable friends opposite. 4976 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - You are stirring them up. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I want to stir them up. I do not think they have given this question sufficient reflection. I make these remarks in no spirit of antagonism, because I sincerely regret that the Government have with so much readiness introduced a measure of this kind. Last year I had the satisfaction, and I look back Upon it with a good deal of pleasure and some pride, of resisting with them what they and I considered to be a proposal to interfere with the Constitution. I regret that on this occasion, unmindful of what passed last year, my honorable friends in a less direct or more veiled way, are following the course which, with me, they condemned last year, and in this measure are infringing, if not the letter, at least the spirit of the Constitution. It is sometimes said that those of us who are called old Federalists are unduly influenced by considerations of this kind, but just the same considerations influenced me last year when I joined with my honorable friends in resisting what we then considered to be an undue interference with the Constitution. My honorable friends opposite may not think so, but the reasons operating there are identical with those which now induce me to take the stand I do with regard to this Bill. Senator Needham yesterday reminded me that I had not heard the whole of 'his speech. That is always to me a source of great regret. I am always sorry when I lose any of the pearls of wisdom that fall so freely from his lips. He has a talent for lecturing honorable senators on this side, and sometimes even his own political friends do not escape his chastisement. The honorable senator in his lecture of yesterday said that no arguments had been offered from this side against the principle of this Bill. I wonder what sort of argument in opposition to this Bill would appeal to my honorable friend, or, indeed, to any honorable senator opposite. 4976 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - None. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Is that the mind in which my honorable friends approach the consideration of a question which involves at least the imposition of a serious tax upon the people of this country ? 4976 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - We are not approaching its consideration. We have considered it for twenty-five 3Tears, and are now finishing its consideration. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Right or wrong, my honorable friends mean to go on. 4976 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - After considering the matter for twenty-five years. 4976 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is to say that my honorable friends have made up their minds and decline to open them to any arguments from those who have considered the question from the other side. That is a remarkable confession. I quite understand Senator Millen's feeling of despair when the attitude assumed by our honorable friends opposite is that of the stone wall. They say, " You might as well talk to a stone wall as to us. We are impervious to criticism. We are dead to argument. Our minds and consciences are dulled to any injustice or wrong you may point out." My friends are aware that on these constitutional questions I am not unfriendly to them in any way, but I do say that this is a confession I am sorry they should have made. Still it represents the position, and it is because I felt that that was the position taken up by the Government that at the outset I said I intended to appeal with a few reasons for a reconsideration of the subject. I am not deterred by the interjections that have been made. 4977 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Where proof of guilt is positive, does the honorable senator think that any address by counsel at the conclusion of a trial will save a man from a verdict of guilty? 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am astonished that Senator Givens, who is the most argumentative and controversial man in this Chamber should suggest that a Judge on the Bench at the outset of a case should say, " I have made up my mind that this man is guilty and I shall not listen to the other side at all." 4977 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - No, after hearing the evidence. The impassioned appeal of counsel is not evidence. 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend makes the impassioned appeal. He has made it from the platform, and I have no doubt that he has made it in the Caucus. I suppose that differences of opinion have to be overcome there, and we know that they sometimes overflow on to the floor of this chamber. The honorable senator Has shaken off the fetters of the Caucus on more than one occasion this session. 4977 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - That is where the honorable senator makes a mistake. 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Perhaps I do, and if so, I say we can never know when we have our honorable friends opposite. We cannot know now whether on this subject they are really a stone wall or whether their minds are still open. But when my honorable friends declared so vehemently that their attitude was that of a stone wall, I assure them that that is the attitude I attributed to them. That is the reason why I say, with regard to the remarks of my sententious friend, Senator Needham, that I wonder what kind of argument would appeal to him. It seemed to me purely gratuitous for the honorable senator to say that he had heard no argument from this side. 4977 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - How would it do to argue with an axe? 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - A shillelah would be a more appropriate weapon for my honorable friend. But that is not the sort of argument indulged in here. From what we have just heard I suppose that if one rose from the dead the other side would not be convinced. A miracle might convince them, but then they would deny the miracle. In order to make the position perfectly clear, I wish to say that I am not, any more than are my honorable friends opposite, in favour of the aggregation of great estates. I never have been. 4977 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - That is to say the honorable senator does not dispute the principle of land taxation? 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But this is not land taxation. 4977 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - What is it? 4977 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is confiscation. I was saying that I have never been in favour of the aggregation of large estates, but land taxation, as properly understood, has nothing whatever to do with the aggregation or the distribution of large estates. Taxation is one thing, and the bursting up of large estates into small fragments, is quite another. This is not land taxation at all. To put it shortly, I have used the term " confiscation," because I think it may fairly be applied to this measure. I would remind honorable senators that the aggregation of large estates in Australia has been very useful in its day and generation. No one can deny that. I am not sure that even now it would not be a good thing if men like the pioneers of settlement in Australia could be induced to take up large areas of the many thousands - nay, millions - of acres that are still available for settlement in remote districts. Any settlement, sparse though it may be in the outlying parts of this great continent, would be better than none. I am not defending the aggregation of great estates. I have been too long a resident of settled districts in this country to do that, but I remind honorable senators that the problem in Australia is quite a different problem from that which exists in closely-populated countries like England. I am sure that it would not have been possible to have developed this country in the way in which it has been developed if large areas had not been settled, and used for the pasturage of sheep or cattle, the best use to which it was possible to put them in the past. At any rate, there is no crime in the possession of a large estate. There is no offence committed by the man who holds it. So far as I am aware, and I do not think one honorable senator opposite will differ from me in this, there is no culpability in the ownership of a great estate, for which the owner, merely because he is the owner, should be penalized. I wish the matter to be clearly understood. The bursting up of large estates is an economic question. If so, upon what principle does this Bill rest? The strongest arguments used in support of it are those in connexion with the bursting up of estates. I say that is an indefensible argument in regard to taxation which rests upon a totally different footing. I asked Senator Needham what he thought was the principle of the Bill. Instead of answering my question he read the title, which does not convey any idea of the principle. We are sometimes told that language is given us to conceal pur thoughts. Very often the title of a Bill conceals its object, and the title of this Bill is no exception to that rule. I am not saying these things merely to be controversial, but because I think I should be failing in my duty if I did not put the matter as fairly as I can before the Senate. Naturally enough my honorable friend did not answer the question, because, if he had done so, he would have shown that the Bill is one which ought not to pass this Parliament. 4978 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Why? 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I will tell my honorable friend. Senator Needham complained that certain estates were not being utilized to the best possible advantage. But that is not an argument in favour of this Bill. 4978 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The first principle of the measure is to compel those who are best able to do so to contribute something towards the revenue of the country. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is not so. Senator Needham followed Senator de Largie, who cited instances in Western Australia - some of which it was suggested were not appropriate, because they related to leaseholds, and not to freeholds - with a view to showing that huge tracts were being held by various persons, who were not putting them to their best use. Other honorable senators have done the same thing. I say that that is not the principle of this Bill . If the Government had submitted a measure to put a stop to the holding of lands which are not being utilized to the best advantage, I would have supported it. I do not believe there is a man in Australia - except, perhaps, a few of the land-owners themselves - who would hesitate to say that it is a wrong to the community that persons should hold either large or small areas without putting them to their best use. If the Bill be intended to prevent that sort of thing, how monstrously unjust it is. It will operate alike upon those who use their lands well and upon those who do not use them at all, or who use them ill. Its weight will fall upon the just as well as upon the unjust. It will visit its penalties upon the innocent as well as upon the guilty. I do not propose to cite illustrations of its injustice. Those injustices appear upon its face. When we fix an arbitrary exemption of £5,000, we drag into the net every person who holds land in excess of that value, however well he may be using it, and we punish him as well as the man whom alone we desire to reach. Therefore it is idle to offer an observation of that kind by way of argument. 4978 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - It is not a punishment. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - What is the object of imposing this tax? Is it not to compel those who do not use their land properly to part with it ? Why ? Because they are not using it properly. Because they are acting in defiance of what is economically right to the people of this country. But my honorable friends intend to apply the same dose of medicine to the man who is using his land properly. 4978 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - It is easy for him to take. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Is that a reason why we should administer a dose of medicine to a man who is in good health ? I never listened to such logic in my life. 4978 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The object of the Bill is to settle people on the lands of this country. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Upon what lands? Obviously upon lands which are not being utilized to the best possible advantage. 4978 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Land is not being used to the best advantage unless it is supporting a large number of families. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I can tell my honorable friend of scores of farms which are being put to the best possible use, but each of which supports a man and his wife and family, together with a few labourers. Are my honorable friends going to expatriate these men? . 4978 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The Bill will not touch them. 4978 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator astonishes me. In the extreme character, of his views he does not comprehend the effect of the Bill. It will touch every person who owns land the unimproved value of which exceeds ^5,000. Senator E. J. Russell read some interesting details regarding the great increase which has taken place in land values in the city of Melbourne. We know that such increases have taken place in every city. It is said that at one time a town acre in Adelaide could be purchased for 7s. 6d., whereas to-day it is worth many thousands of pounds. Why could it be bought then for 7s. 6d. an acre? Because South Australia was nearly, if not actually, bankrupt. Indeed, she was saved from national bankruptcy only by the gold escort bringing gold from the gold-fields, which had just then been discovered in Victoria. During that period the people and the State itself were in such a condition of destitution that it became necessary to establish a coinage of tokens made out of the gold which was brought from Victoria. But that circumstance does not affect the immense increase which has taken place in the value of city properties. That increase may form the material for a very excellent argument iri favour of land nationalization. But this Bill does not embody a scheme for land nationalization. My honorable friends know that I voted for the principle of land nationalization in connexion with the Federal Territory, and I would do so again tomorrow. In that respect, I am just as radical as they are. Land nationalization is, at least, in principle, an excellent thing, but so far it is only in an experimental stage. I voted for the principle because I believe in it, and because I am willing to give it a trial. I asked Senator E. J. Russell to show me the article from which he quoted last evening, and when he did so I found that it was an article upon land nationalization. The arguments which it adduced were very appropriate in that connexion, but they have no bearing upon this Bill. 4979 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - This Bill proposes the nationalization of a small portion of the unearned increment. 4979 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - In so far as it is a taxation Bill, it merely proposes to do what is already done in connexion with spirits, tobacco, and other articles which pass through the Customs House, lt does not touch the question of 4he unearned increment. So that the honorable senator's quotations, interesting as they were, have no bearing upon this measure, although they do bear upon the question of land nationalization. So far as the Bill is an attempt to burst up city lands, he must realize that the Government are seeking to. bring force to bear upon the wrong man in most cases, because very few of the present holders of city lands were original purchasers of it from the Crown. Indeed, the same remark is applicable to country lands. 4979 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - My object was to show that with each succeeding generation it is becoming increasingly difficult for young men to get land. 4979 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am not at all sure that that statement is well founded, because we must pay some regard to our limited population. If my honorable friends succeed in -bursting up country lands - success in the case of city lands is absolutely impossible - where are they going to find purchasers for them? When we take into consideration the fact that there are vast areas of Crown lands in the country still available for selection, the problem becomes still more difficult. Where are my honorable friends going to secure the purchasers for all this land in small areas ? 4979 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - They cannot get land now. 4979 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They can. 4979 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - There are hundreds of applicants for every block that is available. 4979 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We shall always have that condition of affairs. A few years ago the same cry was raised in South Australia, but since then, large areas like Pin a roo, Loxton, and various other tracts on the river Murray have been opened up in parts of the country which were formerly regarded as incapable of settlement and production. 4979 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Those are the places to which honorable senators opposite wish' to drive the settlers. 4979 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend does not know what he is talking about. There is no part of Australia which is more attractive from the stand-point of settlement. I have been there lately, and I have seen happy prosperous homesteads, and indications of comfort and thrift, which it was a pleasure to witness. 'To tell me that the Crown lands of this country are all opened up and settled is to tell me what any one who knows anything about Australia would not; believe for a single moment. No member of the Senate is better acquainted with South Australia than is the Vice-President of the Executive Council. He knows the initiatory steps that were taken- I think by the late Mr. Kingston, when he was head of the Government of that State - to establish village settlements, as they were called, along the River Murray. They were settled, as I think, on wrong principles, and afterwards had to be abandoned. But those were, as I have said, initial steps, and all honour to those who took them, because they led people to examine and take up country which, instead of being the waste it was supposed to be, is susceptible of prosperous settlement and of great production. I say so much in reply to what Senator E. J. Russell has suggested. It is a little off the track which I had thought out for myself, but it is an interesting diversion, and is a good answer to what he has said. When he puts the case with regard to city lands, and suggests that this Bill is introduced with a view of enabling young men to get land, surely that is a preposterous thing to say. What are the young men going to do with the city lands when they get them ? We want to spread out the young men over our vast areas. We want to open up the country, and divide the great estates, when there are people ready to take them. But we can do that better by State methods than by such a method as is proposed by this Bill. As I have said, I am not going into any particular examples of hardship with regard to the holders of great estates. But I am going to give one case, and then I shall say no more on the subject. I am going to give a case which relates to a branch of the subject which, I venture respectfully to think, has not been sufficiently considered. I allude to the position of the children of a deceased land-owner,' who has made provision for them in his will, or in a settlement for their maintenance, after his death - such provision as a prudent man will always make to insure their enjoyment of it during their lives, and also, perhaps, during the lives of their children. In the case that I am about to mention, the will of the deceased acts as a restriction on sale, and if it were possible to sell, it would be an exceedingly imprudent thing, and even a wrong to the man who is in his grave. I can vouch personally for the standing and respectability of those who have sent me the letter from which I shall quote, and which was written as long ago as the 31st August. They are the trustees under a will. The deceased died in 1867 - long before this particular land tax, and the agitation out of which it originated, was dreamt of. He left an estate consisting chiefly of 7,000 acres of land, in a part of South Australia called the district of South Rhine. I should say that most of the land in that district is, in the present state of the market, worth probably at least £10 an acre. That would make the value of the estate worth about £70,000, bringing it under the maximum scale of taxation fixed by this Bill. Of course, bad times may come, when down would go the value to an extent which could not be predicted. The deceased left that land in the hands of trustees for the benefit of his children and grandchildren, and directed that the estate should not be sold until all of his children had died. In the interval, it was to be leased, and the rentals divided amongst the beneficiaries. 4980 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - A good example of landlordism. 4980 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I know what my honorable friend has in his mind. But there is good landlordism and bad landlordism. At any rate there is no such landlordism in this country as the landlordism which my honorable friend and many others who sympathize with his view in that respect consider to be no blessing to the country to which he alludes. 4980 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - It is coming here too.' 4980 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No, it is not coming here. In this country, with its 3,000,000 square miles, the thing is a positive impossibility. We shall have an alien invasion and an alien occupation before we have to fight landlordism in this country. It is not landlordism that is going to be our danger. It is not those within our borders, it is those from without, that we shall have to resist. 4980 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - There is no law of primogeniture here. 4980 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - It is exemplified in the letter from which Senator Symon has been quoting. 4980 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - This is not primogeniture. Surely my honorable friend makes provision for his own children. Is that a crime? 4980 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I should not want to tie up any estate that I had. 4980 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - You do not tie it up by bequeathing it under conditions. Would my honorable friend leave an estate unrestrictedly to a daughter who might marry and whose husband might dissipate it? 4981 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I would not tie it up for the whole length of her lifetime and the lifetime of her children after her. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Surely my honorable friend would tie up an estate during the lifetime of a daughter? 4981 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - No. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The phrase was used here yesterday, " He builded better than he knew." My honorable friend is better than his own language would lead one to believe. 4981 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Otherwise he is not so wise as he looks. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - As I have explained, this estate was to be leased and the rental divided among the beneficiaries. What else could be done? If there was to be a provision for the family they could not all manage the estate. The best way to promote dissension in a family is to leave all the members of it together to undertake the management of a property. Since his decease the land has been let in small holdings and has supported nearly twenty .different families, besides considerably assisting to support seven beneficiaries, whose families now consist of about thirty members. That is a total of fifty-seven persons. 4981 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Not very many on 7,000 acres. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is a step towards a better state of things, anyway. I quote now from the letter - It may be safely asserted that from 125 to 150 persons are being materially assisted in obtaining a living on the land in question. The ostensible reason for a land tax is to break up large estates, in order that they may support more people. 4981 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - - -The real reason is to raise revenue. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No, it is not. Nothing hurts me more than to seem to differ from my honorable friend, but really what he has stated is not the case. 4981 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Can there not be more than one reason for this policy ? 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The real reason is to burst up big estates. That is the main reason, is it not ? 4981 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - That is one reason. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Is not that what is provided for in the party platform? I have been on the platform with some of my honorable friends opposite, and have heard what they have said. To some extent I agree with them. If they get at the right people, I do not differ from them at all. I merely differ from this scheme, which I think Senator Rae, when he comes to consider some of the objectionable things in it, will agree does not provide a means to accomplish the end that he has in view. The letter proceeds - But we maintain that the estate which we represent has been, and still is, made the greatest possible use of by being divided into small holdings and supporting as many persons as can reasonably be expected, and that the purpose of the tax has been attained in this case by the instructions of the deceased. Under instructions contained in his will, and on account of the beneficiaries in the next generation, the trustees are prevented from selling the property until all of the children are deceased. Otherwise they would be only too pleased to dispose of it at the present high values. If you agree with our contentions we shall be glad if you will endeavour to avoid an injustice being done to those we represent and others in a similar position. Now, I am not personally acquainted with those who sent me this letter, though I know them by repute. They have had no communication with me except by this letter. I offer this as one example of what may happen under an indiscriminate measure like this, which has for its object a sinister design not indicated by the title, and wholly different from that which appears in the actual print. There may be a vice in landlordism, but if my honorable friends opposite say that' this Bill is introduced to put down landlordism, I reply that that is not an object which it can accomplish. Furthermore, my honorable friends must know that it is just as economically beneficial to divide up large estates by leasing as by selling them. 4981 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - We should not obtain that- spirit of sturdy independence that invariably accompanies a peasantry if they were merely tenants. 4981 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Well, I come from Scotland, and the great majority of the farmers of Scotland are tenant farmers. My honorable friend is entirely mistaken. There is no body of men in this world more independent than are the tenant farmers of Scotland. There is no body of men in this world who are better farmers than are the tenant farmers of Scotland. They stand in the very forefront of the scientific farmers of the world. If you want to get lessons in farming, where do you go? To Scotland. If you want lessons in cattle breeding, where do you go? To Scotland. If you want lessons in Liberalism, where do you go? You go to Scotland, for the Scottish tenant farmers were Liberals, and their country was the stronghold of Liberalism in the days when Liberalism was seriously at a discount. 4982 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - If you want lessons in the cruelty of landlordism towards a tenantry, you go to Scotland. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - You do not do anything of the kind. I venture to think that I know as much about the landlords and tenants of Scotland as my honorable friend does. 4982 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - I can give instances. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend can give instances if he pleases. It would not be Scotland, but Heaven, if he were unable to find an example of injustice or cruelty somewhere. 4982 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Senator Gardiner means that he could prove his case. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend would have to give us strong authorities and statistics to prove such a case. I do not desire, however, to deal further with that aspect of the matter. I did not mean to deliver an eulogium upon the tenant farmers of Scotland. 4982 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The honorable senator did it very well. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I did it because it is just and true. 4982 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - There is a delegation of Scottish farmers in Australia now to find out how they can get away from their own country. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Dr. Johnson said that the most beautiful prospect that any Scotsman ever saw was the high road to London. Scotsmen are the leaven who have leavened the world. But, at the same time, I do not think you will find any Scotsmen who are unpatriotic enough to defame their own country when they are out of it. On the contrary, they are said to be so excessively patriotic that they remember it too much, even in a great and glorious country like Australia. 4982 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - The case in South Australia, to which the honorable senator has referred, has been provided for very fairly in clause 32. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That clause refers to a mere method of computation. It does not meet the case at all. I thought that what my honorable friend was referring to was clause 64, but if he was not doing so, I need not trouble the Senate by referring to it now, as I shall have a word to say about it later. I have no objection to land taxation, and, in proof that it is no novel opinion of mine, in 1884 I was I suppose as instrumental as any one in having a system of land taxation introduced into South Australia in conjunction with the late Mr. Kingston. 4982 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - It was very harmless. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It was land taxation. 4982 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Oh, yes. 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I think that all land taxation, if it is properly taxation, and not confiscation, is more or less harmless; and there is not the slightest reason why a person who possesses some portion of his wealth in the shape of land should not pay his just contribution to the revenue in common with a man who possesses his wealth in money, or some other form of property. But in South Australia we accompanied that land taxation with an income tax, and I hold that you ought never to have a system of land taxation, certainly a severe system, unless it is accompanied with taxation on other forms of wealth. It is a monstrous thing to single out one form of property, and exact the uttermost farthing from that, leaving the rest untouched. So when we introduced land taxation in South Australia we accompanied it with an income tax. 4982 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - We are leaving that to the States 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The more appropriate thing to leave to the States is the land tax, because a fundamental principle of this Constitution is that the States not merely own all the Crown lands, but have, and ought to have, control of the lands within their respective jurisdictions. If you leave the income tax to the States, how are you going to adjust it? Income tax and land tax ought to be correlative, and imposed for the one purpose of contributing to the revenue. 4982 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - If the States do not act fairly with the income tax the honorable senator suggests that we should also take over that? 4982 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - What I am saying is that if you do not mean this land tax to be, as it was expressed yesterday, a vindictive class tax, but a tax as properly understood, you should take the income tax over now. What is it that you are going to tax? By all means tax the rich ; by all means tax the luxuries of the rich; by all means make those who are best able pay most of the taxation of the country, or, at any rate, make every man contribute fairly according to his means. But here you are bringing in confessedly a class tax. It is a class tax because you single out a particular kind of property, and it is a class tax as far as regards the person, because" you single out the owner of a particular kind of property. To my mind, that is wholly indefensible. The danger which attends this kind of taxation is that it resolves itself into class taxation, or lends itself to other, and what I call sinister, and, from the taxation point of view, really dishonest purposes, not properly denominated taxation. In the present position of the Commonwealth and State finances, I object to this land tax as unnecessary, oppressive, and unjust. I. have no objection either to the taxation of those who are properly called absentees, but there are absentees and absentees. I consider, and always have been of opinion-, that Australians who have made their money and gained their property in Australia should be proud of being Australians, and remain here and spend their money wisely and well. I do not mean that they should be tied down and imprisoned here, but should be able to take a trip now and again, for instance, at Coronation time. I think that if Australians go away to England or any other country there is no reason why they should not pay a little extra for the privilege of going away. I am with my honorable friends on that point. But I do not think that persons who have never been in Australia, but sent out their money to assist us when we needed it, should be regarded as absentees. 4983 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Philanthropists ! 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Not philanthropists. Theirs is the kind of philanthropy in which my honorable friend indulges when he makes a good bargain ; none of us is above the philanthropy which makes a profit when it can. Why should the people I referred to be penalized ? 4983 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Because we conferred a great favour upon them. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - In borrowing their money? 4983 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Just so. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Upon my word, we are living in strange times. 4983 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - They are drawing capital out of this country, not putting it in. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - This is like the case of a man who was largely indebted. A friend asked him, " Why do you not pay off your debts ? " " Good gracious," he exclaimed, "if I did, my creditors would not touch their hats to me. ' ' That is the principle on which my honorable friends opposite are going. A man who is an Australian, and shakes the dust of Australia off his feet, and goes to another country to spend his patrimony or the wealth which he has acquired in Australia, ought to pay handsomely. But why penalize the man who lent you money at the time when you wanted it, and assisted you to develop* this country, and make it what it is, who assisted with his money - of course, much was due to the brains of the people - to put on what you call the unearned increment? 4983 K6M 0 0 CLEMONS, John Senator Clemons - Why is he not to be penalized when he lends his money to the Government ? 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is another suggestive aspect. Why is not a man in another country to be penalized when he lends his money to the Government? I suppose that we should have as little borrowing as we can, but at present we owe about £250,000,000. I do not know whether you intend to put an extra absentee tax on all the bond-holders, or try to do so, but really that is the logical thing to do, is it not? I appeal to Senator Long, who is a shrewd man. Is it not absolutely indefensible when you come to examine it with a little detail ? . 4983 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - He answered that question long ago. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - See this iron band which is put round all my honorable friends, this stone-wall as they confessed this morning. No arguments will convince them or appeal to them, so I am not arguing. I am merely submitting a few common-sense considerations which I hope they will allow to filter into their minds. 4983 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The honorable senator's arguments may change our opinions, but I doubt very much whether they will change our votes. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is excellent. 4983 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The honorable senator has heard that before, I think. 4983 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is the iron hand of this tyranny. 4983 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - It is not a stone wall, but an impregnable fortress. 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - An impregnable fortress within which you have the men who say, " Honour and justice demand we should surrender." 4984 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Not I, never. 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But the command has gone forth, " No." It is a fortress within which you shelter wrong and injustice. 4984 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Who sent the command forth ? 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Was it the Prime Minister? 4984 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The people of Australia. 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not believe that the people of Australia ever gave any sanction to such a Bill as this, and my belief is, too, that my honorable friend will find that out before very long. There are three questions which may be considered. First, is the Bill constitutional ; second, is it just ; and third, is it politic or wise? As to its being constitutional, I am not going to offer any opinion. There is a tribunal constituted to determine that question, and if anybody chooses to seek a determination, of course, he can do so. But so far as the Constitution is concerned - I am dealing not with the Bill, but with the power of taxation - there is no doubt in my mind that the Commonwealth, like every other nation, has the power of imposing land taxation properly so called. 4984 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Under the Constitution our power of taxation has no limit. 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am not going to question that at all, because I admit, and everybody must admit, that the power to impose and collect a tax carries a power to pass provisions necessary and proper for the execution of that purpose. That is for taxation strictly so called, and the whole field of taxation may be, and to my thinking must be, open to any community professing to be a nation, whether young or old. In my view it would be hampering its national destiny if it were otherwise. That must be accompanied by this consideration, which is exceptionally well, put in one of the finest compendiums in relation to Federal government that was ever printed. I refer to The Federalist, in which Hamilton, writing on this subject, says - There are certain emergencies of nations in which expedients that in the ordinary state of things ought to be foreborne become essential to the public weal. I think that is a very excellent statement, and it seems to me to apply to the present position. I know that the framers of the Convention never contemplated- 4984 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - That is a blessed phrase very often used. 4984 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - May I not use it again? They never contemplated an interference by the Commonwealth with direct taxation unless in case of national emergencies and as a principle of Federal constitutional government that ought to be maintained. That is to say, we ought not, unless in a case of national emergency to ava.il ourselves of this power of direct taxation. Certainly, we ought not to avail ourselves of it by way of class tax upon a particular kind of property, a.nd for an indirect purpose such as the splitting up of big estates. We have the power to which I have referred under paragraph ii. of section 51 of the Constitution. I. am not offering any opinion, but these are matters which may possibly arise for debate elsewhere in relation to this Bill. In the first place, paragraph ii. of section 51 provides that there is to be no discrimination between States, or parts of States. In the United States Constitution that limitation as to discrimination applies only tc> duties and imposts in the nature of Customs duties, and so on. It does not apply to the general field of taxation outside that source of revenue. In our Constitution it does. That makes it rather important to consider the position of the Commonwealth in relation to the States. The Commonwealth and the States, in relation to all taxation, except Customs and Excise, have u concurrent power and right. The result of that is that, if the Commonwealth were not to have some regard for the inherent principles of the Constitution, the larger aspects underlying it and by which its powers must be determined, it might levy taxation in a particular direction, and to such an extent as to dry up the whole fountain of that particular source of taxation, and so take away the State right altogether. Honorable senators must see that such a thing is possible. Without expressing any opinion upon it, I say it is a matter which may have to be very seriously debated. I doubt, myself, whether the Commonwealth could so exercise this power as to seriously interfere with, much short of destroying, the corresponding right or power in the States. If it did so, if, for instance, this Bill were considered to be - and it might be a matter for judicial determination - of such a character as to seriously impair the States power to levy this kind of taxation, it would run great risk of being held to be an unconstitutional abuse of the National power. All I say is that I think it well worthy of consideration. As I have stated, there is one source of revenue given exclusively to the Commonwealth, and that is the revenue from Customs and Excise. Other taxation is concurrent. 4985 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - And has absolutely no limit. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Yes, it has a limit. 4985 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - No. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend said so, and I know that he is a great constitutional bush lawyer. He may be right. 4985 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The honorable senator may have a fair knowledge of the Constitution, though he is not a lawyer. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have said that. 4985 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - I think the lawyers are mostly " bushed," anyhow. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then I am endeavouring to extricate them. I do not want lawyers to reap wealth from the litigation which unconstitutional land taxation may create if I can help it. Is not the point worth considering, when, as in this Bill, we are singling out a particular kind of wealth, namely, property in land, and are letting all other wealth go free. 4985 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - This Bill may be unconstitutional, but certainly not for the reasons the honorable senator is now putting forward. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Again I say my honorable friend sits in judgment. I am not pronouncing judgment at all. I am merely suggesting these matters for consideration. I say that they are worthy of consideration in connexion with the desirability of pausing from pushing on with this Bill in its present shape. We are all agreed that this graduated system of taxation is very heavy taxation, and that it must be so if it is to carry out the indirect object to which my honorable friends confess. I should like to say that the power of the Commonwealth to make laws with respect to taxation must apply to taxation as properly understood as a means of levying contribution for revenue. So far as regards discrimination, this difficulty arises, and Senator Givens may think it of some importance. The Constitution provides that we are not to discriminate between States, or parts of States, but there will obviously be an inequality and a discrimination if we pass this Bill, because in some of the States land taxation is already imposed. So far as I am aware, the land taxes now levied in some of the States vary considerably. 4985 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - That is their look out. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But my honorable friend must see that if the land taxation to be imposed by the Commonwealth is concurrent with the taxation by the States, and if we levy taxation upon something which is already taxed in varying degrees in different States, we make the same taxation unequal in the different States. 4985 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - No, we do not. So far as our taxation is concerned, it will be equal in all of the States. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator can deal with the matter later, and he may be right, but he forgets that the States are not tied up by written Constitution's as we are. The States can impose unequal and discriminating taxes as much as they like upon their people, and if the Commonwealth, legislating for the people as a whole, imposes a land tax which, by reason of existing land taxes imposed by the States, makes the land taxation in different States unequal, that, in my view, will constitute a discrimination. It may be dealt with in another place, and we cannot settle it here. I put it to my honorable friends as an injustice. Is it not an injustice? We are dealing with the whole of the people of the Commonwealth as one people, and if landowners in South Australia pay a heavier land tax locally than do land-owners in Victoria, will there not be a discrimination in the land taxation upon owners of land in these States, if we pass this Bill? 4985 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The State Parliaments can adjust that. 4985 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Why should we not adjust it before we pass this Bill? 4985 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - If the honorable senator's contention be correct, should we not carry the adjustment to the extent of considering the rates imposed upon land by local authorities ? 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No; the honorable senator is referring to municipal rating, which has nothing to do with national taxation. The taxation imposed by the State Parliaments prior to Federation, and now, is as much national taxation as the taxation imposed by this Parliament, but the taxation we are seeking by this Bill to impose, and municipal taxation, are two entirely different things. 4986 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Because one State taxes land, and another does not, we should not impose land taxation at all, according to the honorable senator's argument. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend is illustrating the very point I am putting. The Government are in this matter discriminating between the States. 4986 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - No ; the State Parliaments do that. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But the honorable senator knows that we are now asked to legislate for the taxation of the same people. 4986 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - But we do not propose to differentiate. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We shall do so by passing this land tax. By imposing this taxation upon the same people of the Commonwealth in Victoria and in South Australia, for instance, we shall be discriminating in the land taxation of this country resting upon landowners in different States. 4986 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - No ; it is the States that are discriminating. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend has formed his opinion, and nothing I can say will affect it. 4986 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Nothing that Senator McGregor could say would affect the honorable senator's opinion. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not think that my honorable friend ought to say that. 4986 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - I think it is a fair reply to the honorable senator's statement. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is not a fair reply, because I have never ostentatiously declared, as some of my friends opposite have done, that my mind is not open. 4986 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - I speak of this question. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - On this question, my mind is as open as the day. If my honorable friends could show me that this Bill is within the Constitution, and necessary to prevent large estates being left derelict, I should be one of the first to support it. The Vice-President of the Executive Council holds a view with which at present I do not agree, but I am prepared to give it every consideration. I do not submit any of these matters in a positive way, as though I were not open to listen to what might be said on the other side. 4986 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - It is simply a matter of a conscientious difference of opinion. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No ; it is not, because my honorable friend must have heard over and over again that whatever honorable senators opposite may think, they cannot vote against this Bill. 4986 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Does not that apply equally to the other side? 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No. 4986 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - With the exception of the honorable senator ? 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am glad my honorable friend has said that. I am, of course, free to vote as I please. I have already said that this Bill - as Senator Givens very well put it in an interjection yesterday - must necessarily interfere with the State management of lands. Now the underlying principle of our Constitution is that the control of the lands of the States shall remain with the States. Certainly a tax of this kind, which is intended to have the indirect effect of inducing persons who hold large areas to subdivide them, must necessarily re-act on State lands and their management. We cannot tax State lands. When Senator Clemons pointed out that we had no power to legislate in regard to land tenure, Senator Givens interjected that we possess the power of taxation, which implies the power of interference in some degree. I quite agree with him. That is a matter which has to be carefully considered, especially when a Bill is put forward the avowed object of which is to burst up large estates, because such a measure must necessarily interfere with the lands of the States, which are directly under State control. What will be the effect of the Bill if all the large estates in Australia are cut up and sold at auction ? The State lands will be very greatly reduced in value, because we have not the population to absorb them- 4986 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - They will keep. 4986 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But I thought that the honorable senator's party did not wish them to be kept ? 4987 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Those which are not sold will keep. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then my honorable friends opposite wish to leave this burden of taxation upon the holders of large estates for an indefinite period? They want them to sell their lands, but the object of the Bill is that they shall not sell them? I thought that the object of the Labour party was to burst up large estates straight away. 4987 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - So it is. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then, would it not be better for my honorable friends to do what is being done in the different States, namely, resume these lands as they are required for closer settlement purposes at a fair valuation? 4987 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - A rotten system. 4987 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Cannot the States themselves do that under this Bill? 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then my honorable friends propose to doubly penalize the holders of large estates, because, whilst they intend to subject them to this tax for an indefinite period, they propose that the States shall resume land for closer settlement purposes from time to time. 4987 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - We shall get the revenue when we do not get the land. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Then why force all these estates into the market at once? Why not recognise the fact that there are no buyers? 4987 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The Victorian Closer Settlement Board receives ten applications for every single block that it offers for selection. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I recollect the time, in the seventies, when lands were resumed in South Australia around Crystal Brook by the Playford Government, and were sold by auction. The prices of those lands were run up in' such an extraordinary way that hundreds of purchasers were ruined, and further legislation had to be introduced to put an end to their agreements, and to reduce the prices of the land. 4987 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The ruin was brought about by artificial prices, owing to an artificial scarcity of land. 4987 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The "boomsters" got in. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The " boomsters " did not. The purchasers of the land were residents of the locality. The same thing happened when land still "further north - land beyond Quorn - was resumed and sold at auction. It was purchased by farmers who eventually left the district penniless and bankrupt. The fact that there are so many applicants for different blocks of land is no proof that there is a dearth of land available for settlement. I say emphatically, without fear of contradiction, that there will be no sufficiency of buyers if all these estates are at once thrown into the market. My honorable friends opposite say that for this legislation they have a mandate from the country. Then the object of the Bill is not to obtain revenue, but to burst up large estates. I deny that they received any such, mandate. But, if they did, I ask them,. "Are you going to obey it?" If they are, then this Bill is really legislation under false pretences. I say that its purpose ought to be stated clearly upon its face. We ought not to evade the" Constitution by a mere pretext. That is the ground upon which I say that this is a measure for confiscation, and not for taxation. It is avowedly intended to put the owners of large estates on the rack, in order to force a sale - a. sale when required. They are not even to have the option of selling straight away, but are to wait, and be subjected to this extortionate tax, till sufficient buyers are available. 4987 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - They ought to pay their fair share of taxation. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Why do not my honorable friends make the owners of millions of money pay their fair share of taxation? Why single out this class? Why not tax all alike? Why do they not join land taxation with income taxation, and then I shall be with them. 4987 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - We cannot do it all at once. 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My. honorable friends can do it at once. There is no State which has adopted land taxation unless in conjunction with income taxation. We cannot make fish of one and flesh of another. Yet that is my honorable friends' sense of justice. 4987 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Would the honorable senator support land taxation in conjunction with income taxation ? 4987 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Certainly. But this Bill does not provide for land taxation. It is intended to burst up big estates, and I. cannot support any such proposal, because we have no constitutional power to give effect to it. I do not hesitate to say that when the effects of this Bill become apparent they will inspire in the minds of the people a spirit of revolt. I do not think that they - any more than the people of England - will submit to class exactions, either as to the persons taxed or as to the property which is to be taxed. 4988 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - The people of England have been submitting to that for generations. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not think they have. They have submitted to an income tax because it is a perfectly fair wealth tax. I am one of those who say, "Tax the wealthy. Tax their luxuries. There is a great deal too much luxury in Australia." 4988 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - The honorable senator says that, but his party does not give effect to it. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - What party ? 4988 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - The honorable senator has been in public life a good while, and is, I suppose, identified with a party? 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Surely the honorable senator could not have been present when I stated that in South Australia I assisted to turn out of office a Government which was opposed to an income tax, and to instal a Government which was in favour of it. I was then Leader of the Opposition. I have never departed from the views which I then held. Let my honorable friends bring in a fair Land and Income Tax Bill for taxation purposes only and it will find in me one of its most sympathetic friends. But it must have taxation for its object - it must not have an indirect object in view. 4988 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - This Bill is intended for taxation purposes. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I say that it is not. My honorable friends went to the country with the cry that it was necessary to burst up big estates. 4988 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Is not the honorable senator bound to consider the terms of the Bill? 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am not bound to concern myself with a fiction. I am bound to penetrate the veil, and to discover what was the mandate - if any such mandate were given - which my honorable friends received in this connexion. I say that it was land taxation with a view to the promotion of closer settlement by bursting up large estates. 4988 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - And finding money for defence purposes. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No such thing. I never heard of that suggestion. 4988 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - I mentioned it in every speech which I made. 4988 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - The Prime Minister also made the fact very plain that the money was required for defence purposes. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There is no need for this Bill for defence purposes. The Commonwealth has agreed to return to the States 25s. per capita, which will probably amount to about £6,000,000 per annum. It is estimated that £1,000,000 per annum will be produced by this tax, or that that is the amount required for purposes of defence. Why did not the Commonwealth Government deduct that £1,000,000 from the £6,000,000 and allow the latter to impose their own land taxation? 4988 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - What a howl there would have been if that course had been proposed. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The States would be mad indeed not to agree to such a proposal, because it would have kept the hands of the Commonwealth off their lands. But they were not asked to agree to it. There is no need for this tax for defence purposes. The financial necessities of the Commonwealth do not require it. We have to return to the States £6,000,000 annually out of the Customs and Excise revenue. The Commonwealth possesses the exclusive power of taxation in that connexion, and yet it is proposed to hand that money back to the States, and then to interfere with the direct powers of taxation which they enjoy concurrently with the Commonwealth. 4988 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Some members of this Senate did not agree with the proposal to hand back that money to them, but the honorable senator did. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course I did. But I never dreamed that a confiscatory Land Bill would be introduced. 4988 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - The honorable senator knew that it was coming. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I did not. 4988 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Then the honorable senator should have done so. 4988 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - It has been on our platform for years. 4988 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course. 4989 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - The honorable senator did not think that we were going to win ? 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend speaks of a time after this Parliament met. 4989 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - We had no limit as to rates in our platform. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Good heavens! Were my honorable friends going to tax people out of house and home ? 4989 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Did not the honorable senator think that we were in earnest about this matter? 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I did not think that ray honorable friends were going to be so abandoned. I thought that the responsibilities of office would temper their extreme opinions. But do not honorable senators agree with me that it would have been a very good thing to keep another £1, 000,000 or £2,000,000 for the Commonwealth, and to say to the States, " We will give you £1, instead of 25s., and will undertake not to interfere with your direct taxation." 4989 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - For all time? 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Ten years is the time mentioned in the Act which we passed. Would not that have been a statesmanlike thing to do? There is no fun in imposing taxation. My honorable friends seem to have forgotten that taxation means and involves a just and proper distribution of the public burdens. This Bill does not do that at all. I do not know what the proportion actually is, but I should think that there is just about as much money invested in other forms of enterprise in this country as is actually invested in land. Is it not a blot upon the policy of the Government that this is to be regarded as a Bill to penalize one particular form of investment? The Bill makes no pretence to bring about a proper and just distribution of the public burdens. 4989 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - A proper distribution of the public wealth. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Ah ! A proper distribution of the public wealth ! Communism! It is just as well that the people of this country should know that. They should have an opportunity of saying whether they desire to put their means into a common bag and have them distributed. 4989 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - I did not say the private wealth, but the public wealth. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -What is the public wealth? 4989 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - The public-created value that is now filched by the landlords. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The unearned increment? 4989 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - Yes. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But the Government are going to take that unearned increment out of the pockets of the man who has not benefited from it, the man who yesterday, we will say, gave £20,000 for a bit of land. The unearned increment has been pocketed by his predecessor, and the Government think that it is fair play between man and man to pass a law of that kind. A has already paid for the land to B, who has pocketed the unearned increment; and public morality has sunk so low that the Government are going to compel A to pay to the public revenue the unearned increment which he has not received. 4989 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - He took the risk with his eyes open. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -I dare say that my honorable friend has some property in shares. How would he like it if, the original value of some of his shares being £1 each, and the present value being five or ten times as much, the Government stepped in and pocketed the difference? 4989 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - That is totally different. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Because it applies to my honorable friend! Why, otherwise, is it totally different? 4989 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - Because land values are created by the public. 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Are not share values, to a very large extent, created by the public? Even the value of mining shares is created by value taken out of the soil. But, of course, as long as my honorable friend's shares are exempt it does not matter twopence about the landowner, who is to be made to pay over again the unearned increment which he may have already paid to, and which has been pocketed by, the person from whom he bought his land. 4989 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Is there not a difference between wealth in lands and wealth of other kinds? 4989 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not see the slightest difference. There is, as I have said, an economic question as to land, inasmuch as it is one of the instruments of production; and I think that the Government are perfectly entitled to say that there should be a law to compel owners of great areas of land to put their estates to good use. But that is not to be done by imposing a system of taxation which would make it unprofitable - perhaps ruinous - for a man, in many instances, to own land at all. Can it be right to impose a law with the intention of making it unprofitable to hold a particular kind of property ? 4990 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - I think so. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I say no. If it is wrong for a man to hold property, bring in a direct law to make him part with it. Do not do it indirectly. I dislike this underhand and sinister method. I do not like the principle of taxing a man out of his house and home, in order that he may be compelled to divide his property amongst other people. 4990 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - Is it worse than taxing him out of his food ? 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Who taxes anybody out of his food ? . 4990 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - Revenue duties do that. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is the honorable senator who, as a Protectionist, does that. I am a Free Trader, and I want to make the food of the people absolutely free. 4990 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Does not the honorable senator think that land monopoly tends to tax the people out of their food ? 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If this Bill is aimed directly at land monopoly, it is not the sort of measure we can pass. 4990 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - But it may have the indirect effect of breaking up land monopoly. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The proper object of taxation is revenue, and a tax ought not to be promoted with a view to bursting up estates as well. Land is an instrument of production. Are my honorable friends justified in attempting to destroy one form of industry in this country? 4990 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Land speculation. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Bring in a Bill to stop land speculation if it is wrong. 4990 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - This Bill will do so to a large extent. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - If it is meant to do so, it goes beyond the powers of this Parliament. I repeat again that if the basis of this tax were to get at land which was not put to a profitable use, that would be a principle which could be understood and dealt with. But to strike in the same way at all land, whether it is used well or ill, whether it is profitable or unprofitable, is a senseless and arbitrary thing to do. In that sense, no one can deny that this Bill is senseless and arbitrary. In point of fact, this measure is a calculated attack upon land-owners generally, and not an honest attempt to get revenue. It is an attempt to force people, or frighten them, to part with their lands, to sell them at panic prices, rather than hold them under the imposition which is to be laid upon them. My honorable friend, Senator Story, would laugh at the idea of subjecting his own property to any such treatment. 4990 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - There is no other kind of property that is created by public enterprise to the same extent as are land values. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But by this Bill the Government are not getting at land values, but at the man who has paid to his predecessor the full value of the. land he holds. 4990 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - In some cases. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - In most cases.. 4990 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - No. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Of course, you get a parrot-cry of that sort about the unearned increment, but you have to show that it is the man you are seeking to get at who is suffering in that way, and not the man who has already paid the full value out of his pocket. 4990 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Suppose that some person stole your watch, or got illegal possession of it. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Being a lawyer, I should probably not prosecute him, but say, " May it be a blessing to you." 4990 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Would the buyer of the watch, or the honorable senator, be the actual owner? 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The buyer of that stolen watch would not be the owner of it. 4990 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Of course not. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - But surely, my honorable friend does not mean to apply that as a parallel to the position with which we are dealing. The land is not stolen. 4990 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - It is appropriated. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No. 4990 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The public created the value, and the private owner appropriated it. 4990 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The land is not stolen or appropriated, nor is its. value. During my career in South Australia I have known men who were ruined, and some who were nearly ruined, by being compelled to buy the land on which they were depasturing their sheep. I know men who incurred debts thirty odd years ago to the amount of hundreds of thousands of pounds in order to enable them to keep a house over their head and pasturage for their cattle and sheep. To introduce such a suggestion as theft in connexion with that is unworthy of my honorable friend. 4991 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I used the word in connexion with the land. I say that they appropriated the land, legally I admit. 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They bought the land fairly and honestly, and the man who buys my watch is entitled to it, although it may happen, from some virtue of which I was unaware, to become more valuable than I thought. 4991 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - A great many stole land by dummying, and other means, too. 4991 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order ! 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - As I want to get on, sir, I am very much obliged to you for cautioning or repressing' the ebullitions of my honorable friend. He knows that I am perfectly good-natured, and in anything I have said I hope that I have not wounded any one's feelings. I have expressed myself as plainly as 1 could. These texts which have been constantly given to me - these very suggestive and pregnant interruptions and the useful confessions which have been evoked - have led me to be a little longer than I originally intended. Would it not be very absurd to single out, for instance, horses or cattle for special taxation because you thought that a man had too many of them, or that the market price was too high? Logically, I think it would be just as reasonable to say, "If a man has more than 20, 000 sheep, or 500 horses, or 1,000 cattle, we shall tax him, and compel him to sell at once, because he might keep them in order to send up the price of stock, and so interfere with the food of the poor. 4991 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - That is what we propose to do with the income tax. 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not want to be led off again to the income tax. 4991 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - A limitation of area is not a novel proposition. In this State, for instance, we have had such a proposal by Conservative Governments. 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am indebted to my honorable friend, Senator Russell, for making that remark, because it shows that the State Government are quite prepared to do their duty. 4991 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - A limitation of the number of sheep. 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - A limitation of area is not a limitation of the number of sheep. I admit that it is rather unpleasant to analyze destructive propositions which are put forward, and that it is very unpleasant to their authors to listen to the analysis. Another point I would like honorable senators to consider is that this measure will be futile altogether to promote settlement or immigration. No honorable senator has explained how it will in any way do either of those tilings, because if there is a sale there are the price and the competition; the land is not going to be given away. On the other hand, you are not interfering in any way with the State-owned land. They are the greatest sinners. Amongst them they own tens of thousands - I was going to say millions - of acres. You are not bursting up the Crown lands, but leaving them all intact and exempt. You are leaving the States to do what South Australia is doing now; and that is, fixing the price of land by Boards, and so on, and selling it at, I think, unduly high prices indeed; and, although the terms are easy, the prices have to be paid. And when the day of difficulty comes we shall have the same thing as we have had in the past - appeals to Parliament to reduce the prices and give the lands at less figures. 4991 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - Does not the honorable senator think that it shows a want of business capacity for a man to give more than the fair value of land? 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do. 4991 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - Then why do these men give more than a fair value to the Government? 4991 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is where the evil comes in. The competition, when good times prevail, is so great that men give a great deal more for land than they are justified in doing. 4991 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - That is an evil which this Bill is going to rectify. A private owner is able to get an extortionate amount for his land. Persons are compelled to pay' whatever is demanded by owners. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - By " private owner," does the honorable. senator mean the owner of a big estate? 4992 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - The honorable senator says that persons in his State are giving exorbitant prices to the State Government, and I point out that throughout Australia men are giving exorbitant prices to land monopolists. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -But they will give the same exorbitant prices. What has happened up to now ? We know that estates have been sold lately. The most convincing proof we have that the object of this Bill is not taxation, but to burst up estates, is that there is an exemption introduced of all land which has been cut up since it was introduced and up to the 30th September. What can be more striking than that ? 4992 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - So as not to tax a man on land which he has sold. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON --But you ought to extend it. You are giving that exemption because a man has complied with the intention of the measure and sold his land. However, the position which I finally put is that there is no occasion for this land taxation measure. The Commonwealth should keep as much as it requires from the revenue which exclusively belongs to it, and that is Customs and Excise revenue. 4992 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - We have tied that up for ten years. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I dare say that if you were to appeal to the States, and propose to them that the Commonwealth should pay less than 25s. a head to the States, undertaking, at the same time, riot to interfere with it, or impose direct taxation during the same period, they would assent to it. 4992 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - But that would not give us a land tax. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No; indeed, honorable senators opposite do not want a land tax ; this so-called land tax is only wanted for an indirect purpose. Revenue is not required, because you have £6,000,000 which you have agreed to distribute amongst the States at the rate of 25s. a head, and I am certain - at least, as certain as one can be - that they would be perfectly willing to revise that bargain, and consent to receive a less amount, if you would say, " In consideration we agree to keep our hands off direct taxation." That would save a great deal of trouble and complication. It would save the sense of injustice and oppression which, in- my opinion, will pass over the whole country when the Bill comes into operation. I do not believe that any State would be so foolish or mad as to refuse to consider a proposition of that kind. It cannot be believed that the States would prefer that the Commonwealth should step within their powers, and impose this land taxation, rather than that they should relinquish what the Commonwealth requires of the surplus which is being distributed among them. 4992 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - I am afraid that they will never get an option. 4992 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I quite recognise that if my honorable friends have made up their minds, they have the numbers to carry the measure. I do not wish to controvert that at all, but I do put it forward as a proper course, and, if I may say so, as a statesmanlike and just way of dealing with this matter so far as it affects the finances of the country. As a revenue-producing measure, it is not wanted ; and as to its indirect object, I have sufficiently dealt with that. I am not going to express any opinion on the constitutional position of several matters which are raised in the Bill, because they can be very much better dealt with in Committee; but there are two clauses to which I wish to refer. One of them is the provision for the forfeiture of land as the penalty for undervaluation with intent to defraud, and the other is the provision for acquisition by the Commonwealth of land which has been undervalued, apparently without intent to defraud. I think that both these provisions will be found to be, if not ineffective, at any ' rate open to very -grave constitutional objections. In the first place, I do not think that the Commonwealth has any power to acquire land or to become a land speculator or land-owner, and that the only power it possesses, and necessarily possesses, under the Constitution is that of acquiring land for specific public purposes, except, of course, the land in the Federal Territory. My view of these two provisions, 1 repeat, is that they will be found to be open to very grave constitutional objections. The one as to acquiring land surely is an absurdity, taken in conjunction with . the latter one as to forfeiture. The forfeiture clause applies in the case of a person who makes an undervaluation with intent to defraud. He is to be subjected, as he ought to be, to a heavy penalty, and it is declared that his land is to be forfeited to the Commonwealth. The other provision for the acquisition of land is where there may be a perfectly innocent undervaluation, but where; with a combination of "nots," the Justice adjudicating is not satisfied that it was not for the purpose of evading the tax. The right of the Commonwealth to acquire the land does not depend upon the owner being found guilty of trying to evade the tax, but on the person to whom is committed the power of ordering the acquisition by the Commonwealth not being satisfied that it was not the intention of the owner in undervaluing his land to evade the tax. 4993 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - But does not the Bill provide for a very wide margin of valuation? 4993 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It provides for a margin of 25 per cent. But as one who has had a good deal of experience during forty years of acting on behalf of people who have been landowners, I say that it is the most difficult thing in the world to put a value on land. If it were possible to suggest a more difficult thing, it would be to put on land its unimproved value. That is next to impossible. It is quite hard enough to impose upon a man the obligation to value his own land ; but it is still harder to oblige him to hand over his land to the Commonwealth for an innocent undervaluation if the person who under this Bill has the power to order the acquisition of the land by the Commonwealth is merely not satisfied that the land was not undervalued with a view to the evasion of the tax. Nothing could be more casuistical. It is a Jesuitical provision which should not appear in a measure of this kind. This is apart from the other matter I have offered for the consideration of honorable senators, that the Commonwealth is not in 'a position to acquire land in this particular way. 4993 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Yet the honorable senator stated only a little time ago that the Commonwealth has the power to enforce its laws by any means it thinks proper.- 4993 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The Commonwealth can impose penalties. We might, as municipal bodies frequently do under their Statutes, order land to be sold, and the proceeds applied in the payment of taxation. 4993 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - And we have the right to fix penalties. 4993 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There are very heavy penalties provided for in this Bill, and properly so, too. 4993 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen -No one will dispute the contention that the penalties proposed in this Bill are heavy. 4993 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The penalties for anything like fraud ought to be made heavy in every revenue measure, and they are enforceable. Fraud, particularly in connexion with the revenue, where the temptation to it is great, ought to be repressed with a heavy hand. But that does not necessitate such a topsy-turvy provision as that proposed in this Bill to make the Commonwealth a land-owner. The Commonwealth might be placed in a very serious position. It might become possessed of half the lands alienated in the different States under the provision to which I have referred. I do not put it on the ground suggested by Senator St. Ledger last night. I . think the Commonwealth has power by legislation to declare forfeiture in regard to land as well as in regard to goods ; but it should be forfeiture carried out in the same way. The Commonwealth should not become possessed . of these lands, but they should be sold and dealt with as Customs goods are dealt with and sold under the Customs Act. There is one other clause to which I should like to refer, and that is a clause which is absolutely unique, I think, in any taxation legislation. I am certainly not going to move to strike it out, because any mitigation of the effects of this measure must be welcomed. I refer to clause 64. It was referred to yesterday in a most triumphant way by some of my honorable friends opposite, and the Vice-President of the Executive Council said, " You surely do not mean to strike that out." It provides that - In any case, when it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioner that a taxpayer liable to pay land tax has become bankrupt or insolvent, or has suffered such a loss - Not that the tax is too heavy; it is some other loss that is referred to - that the exaction of the full amount of tax will entail serious hardship, a Board, consisting of the Commissioner, the Secretary to the Treasurer, and the Comptroller-General of Customs may release such taxpayer wholly or in part from his liability. I declare that the presence of that clause in this Bill stamps this system or scheme of taxation as absolutely and utterly unjust. Why, this is a confession of injustice and of hardship. It is a confession that this system not merely may, but will; produce oppression; and it creates a Board consisting of three Government officials to investigate the oppression and relieve a man from what ought to be the just taxation that bears upon him. I have said that this provision is unique. Its presence here condemns the whole scheme, in my opinion. It will not be rejected by any vote of mine, because it represents a means of some escape from the monstrous misery which may be inflicted under this Bill. 4994 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - Should we not temper justice with mercy? 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - This is not a proposal to temper justice with mercy, but to remove some of the injustice which the Bill creates. The Government first create the injustice and then say, " We shall be merciful in some cases." This is not what I think Shakespeare meant when he said, " The quality of mercy is not strained." 4994 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The operation of the clause may give rise to grave suspicion some time or other. 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That was the second thing I intended to say about it. 4994 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - Suppose that there are a couple of dry seasons following each other in country like the Mallee, does the honorable senator not think that owners of land in such districts should be entitled to some consideration? 4994 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Hold your tongue, or the honorable senator will never stop. 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Senator McDougall is convinced, and does not desire to hear any more ; but my honorable friend, Senator E. J. Russell, is still in the doubting stage. 4994 K3E ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator E J RUSSELL - I hope the honorable senator does not mistake my motive. 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Not at all. The honorable senator's motive is that of a seeker after truth, and I may' tell him that this provision is not intended for the purpose which he suggests. It is not a provision for relief where the tax is found to be too heavy, or anything of that kind. But if the owner of land suffers some other loss, apart from any question of taxation, he is under this clause to be relieved from his contribution to the revenue of the country. I say. that no man ought to be relieved from his fair and just contribution to the revenue of the country. If he is unable to pay his debts and must become insolvent, there are other laws established under which he can seek relief, although even then so stern is the obligation of public necessity that these laws do not, in the present state of the prerogative, relieve a man of his debts to the Crown. 4994 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - One absurdity of the clause is that, if a man is declared a bankrupt, the land will pass to some one. else, and it is the land that will be relieved of the tax, and not the bankrupt original holder. 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The clause might be looked at in many ways, but I consider it as condemning the system of which it is made to form a part. While it. condemns the system, it is at least a mitigation of it ; and I, for one, would not be found seeking to excise it. 4994 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If the principle of the . clause is bad, why keep it in the Bill ? 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I have told my honorable friend the reason. I regard it as a mitigation, and any mitigation from our friends opposite is like sunshine on a gloomy morning. 4994 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Why does the honorable senator propose to support what he says is a bad clause? 4994 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I say that it is bad, but I prefer that it should remain in the Bill as a condemnation on the face of it of a bad system. It is a placard on the face of this Bill that the measure which my honorable friends propose to enact may be a fertile cause of injustice. I do not wish to say any more. As Senator McDougall is convinced, and Senator E. J. Russell has apparently no more questions to ask, I have now only to thank honorable senators, as I do most sincerely, for listening to the views I have endeavoured to put before them in regard to this Bill from a number of different aspects. I assure them that I have not submitted these views with any idea of coercing their minds or of being unduly controversial ; but to put forward matters which give me concern, and which I think may fairly receive some' consideration from them. If they pass the Bill, and the omens point that way, I think I may be allowed to say that they will live to regret it. I believe that if this measure is put upon the statute-book it will be accompanied, when it comes into operation, hy the cries of the oppressed ; and if instances occur such as that to which- I referred in opening my remarks with the tears of the destitute and of children left unprovided for. And if it continues to be law, it will, in the future, be followed by the execration of all honest men and thinking people amongst us. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.30 p.m. 4995 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS . -Senator Sir Josiah Symon, who addressed the Senate upon this very important Bill this morning, mentioned what appears to him to be a fact - otherwise, I suppose, he would not have mentioned it - namely, that honorable senators, upon this side of the Chamber, are deaf to all argument, dead to all reason- that they are practically a stonewall - and that, therefore, it is idle to attempt to reason with them. This gibe comes well from Senator Symon, who is always either perched upon the lofty heights of intellectual superiority, or lost in the imperial vaults of legal lore. But I would remind honorable senators that he rarely remains to listen to any discussion upon a measure. He merely comes here to deliver his obiter dictum without considering what arguments, pro and con, may be adduced upon a measure. In these circumstances, a sneer emanating from him ought properly to be resented. But while the honorable senator treated us this morning to an exhibition of forensic eloquence, while he talked at large and gave us an array of platitudes, he did not offer a single argument against the Bill. Indeed, he frankly admitted that he was not attempting to argue upon it. The public will, therefore, be able to judge of the value of the assumed superiority of this very superior gentleman who took occasion to sneer at one honorable senator upon this side of the Chamber for attempting to lecture the Senate, while he, himself, was engaged in lecturing it. But I do not intend to say any more under this heading. I propose to confine my remarks on the Bill strictly to the principles which are embodied in it. I do not intend to weary honorable senators with statistics, of which they have already had a surfeit. Nor do I propose to debate its details, because 1 realize that they can be much better discussed in Committee. But I do wish to offer some observations on the principles which are at the root of the measure. First, I say that this is a taxation measure, pure and simple. It is a Bill for the purpose of raising revenue for the King's Government in the Commonwealth. That it is essential that we should look to this means of raising revenue is evidenced by the large commitments to which the Commonwealth is already pledged. ' It is well known that, in the near future, we shall be faced with a defence expenditure upon land and sea of at least £3,000,000 per annum in excess of our previous expenditure under that heading. This additional sum must be made up somehow. After we have returned to the States the 25s. per capita annually, to which we are committed for a period of ten years, pur Customs and Excise revenue will be wholly inadequate to meet our growing obligations. We are also confronted with a heavy expenditure upon the Northern Territory, and upon the construction of a transcontinental railway. We have further to face numerous obligations in other directions. As our functions are extended year by year, so our expenditure must increase. It is patent, therefore, that in the. future the revenue, which we have hitherto derived from Customs and Excise, will not be nearly sufficient to meet our expenditure. How, then, can we make ends meet unless we look round for new sources of revenue? I repeat that it is essential that we should tap new sources of revenue, owing to the growing necessities of the Commonwealth. That being so, no Government could turn to any more legitimate source of taxation for the purpose of raising the required revenue than to the privately-held lands of Australia. I think I shall be able to conclusively prove that in a very few words. Senator Symon stated that he approved of the principle of a land tax. I notice that some honorable senators are in favour of every proposal under Heaven, but immediately any proposal is brought forward, it is either presented in a wrong way, or the time for its submission is not opportune. That is not the sort of approval which I extend to any measure. I say that if it be right to do a certain thing, it is right to do it at any time. Senator Symon also stated that this method of taxation ought not to be resorted to unless in conjunction with income taxation. He conveniently forgot that landed property is in an entirely different category from any other form of property. The return from investments in it is entirely different from the return from investments of- any other character. 4995 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - They are harder to get. 4995 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - 'A man may be the most useless waster in Australia, and yet become extremely wealthy by investment in land, whereas that cannot happen in connexion with any other form of investment. For example, in the early days a man purchased a piece of land in Sydney tor £12 or £15. The laws of the State were pretty harsh at the time, and he, unfortunately, ran foul of the law and was sentenced to twenty years' imprisonment. When he was liberated-, the land which he had purchased for £12 or £15 was worth £20,000. Was that because he was a good citizen, because of his energy, enterprise, or industry? No. He became wealthy in spite of himself, simply because of the efforts of the community, because of the industry and energy of the people as a whole. The same- thing may happen any day in the week to anybody. A man may buy a piece of land without ever having seen it. ' He may go away and absolutely forget all about it, and he may return to find that his wealth has been materially increased by reason of its possession. Thus, when we tax the unearned increment, we do not take from the land-owners something which they have created. We merely take back a small portion of the value which the community has created. That argument cannot be controverted. In Australia the increment of value in land during the last century has been enormous. Of course, as Senator Symon has contended, there has occasionally been a decrement. But it is never safe to generalize from the experience of individual cases. It is an undoubted fact that the lands of Australia, as a whole, have enormously increased in value during the past century. They have done so during the past twenty years ; nay, even within the past ten years. 4996 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - There is land in Brisbane to-day which can be purchased more cheaply than it could be twenty-five years ago. 4996 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I do not believe It. 4996 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - I can mention the' case if the honorable senator desires me to do so. 4996 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I have already said that there is no greater fallacy in logic than to attempt to generalize from the experience of individual cases. Upon the whole, as the municipal valuations will show, the lands of Brisbane to-day are worth much more than they were worth twenty-five years ago. I admit that there may be individual cases in which the reverse is true, but Coghlan - and every other statistical authority - shows that, in the aggregate, the lands of Australia have enormously increased in value. Who created that enhanced value? Was it the individuals who owned the land? A great many of those who own land in Australia have never seen it. They do absolutely nothing to help the country, except draw dividends from it. 4996 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - Or to defend it. 4996 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - They do absolutely nothing to help the country or to defend it. But I shall deal with the defence aspect of the question later on. At present, I wish to develop my argument in my own way. Seeing that we are compelled to look around us for other sources of taxation, is it not fair that we should look to this large increment of value which has been created by the public, and that we should demand that it should contribute its fair share towards the government of the country? There is another point which should never be forgotten, and which cannot be emphasized too often, namely, that a large portion of the. added value of these lands is directly due to Government enterprise. When I say " Government enterprise," I mean the enterprise of the people themselves, because, in Australia, under our Democratic system, the Government are the people. We have borrowed and expended £250,000,000 on the public account. That money was borrowed on the credit of the whole people. It has been expended in building railways, in making roads and bridges, in deepening harbors, and in various other public utilities, and its expenditure has added enormously to the value of the lands of Australia. That being so, is it not fair that these people who have derived such a large portion of the added value from State enterprises of that sort, should be asked to contribute a certain portion of that value towards the cost of government in a country which has done so much for them? I do not think that that proposition can be successfully controverted. But if Senator Symon had his way, he would make everybody, no matter whether his income were derived from his own exertion, or he owed his wealth to the enterprise of the community, pay exactly the same. The position will not, I think, bear analysis for a single moment. In the one case a man has launched out, spent his own money, engaged in enterprises of various sorts, and been a good citizen in every sense of the term. Yet Senator Symon would penalize that man to the same extent as a man who had never done a single thing for the community, although he had derived enormous advantage from Government expenditure. There is absolutely no fairness or logic in an argument of that sort. There is another point which I should like to bring under the notice of the Senate. When a man invests his money, and devotes his labour, whether mental or physical, to any enterprise; when he is continually compelled to think about the success of that enterprise ; when he is constantly bent on devoting his mental and physical energy to the promotion of it, and to bringing it to a successful issue, thinking about it day and night, and being often, perhaps, worn out by his anxiety to achieve his purpose, Senator Symon would treat him exactly the same as he would treat the land-loafer who never does a single useful thing. What justification is there for that policy? The man of enterprise not only labours for his own benefit, but his energy is of great advantage to the State. He finds employment for workmen, and indirectly does, perhaps, a hundred other good things. But what good thing is done by the landowner? Absolutely none. All he does is to collect his rents, squeezing the last farthing out of the unfortunate tenant farmer. In addition to the facts regarding the land-owner that I have pointed out, it should be remembered that, instead of helping along the wealth production of Australia - instead of helping to make people more prosperous and successful; instead of helping to support additional families - he often stands in the way of those who are trying to do these things. I am not now, of course, referring to the man who farms his own land. Such people are amongst the best and the most productive citizens Australia contains. I am alluding to the man who holds land in large areas, perhaps for speculative purposes, lt is all nonsense to say that these men as citizens are equally as good as those who by their enterprise, industry, and ability have built up businesses, and by their own exertions are able ultimately to enjoy large incomes. The two classes of men are not on the same plane, and it would be absolutely unfair and unjust to treat them as though they were. There are, I think, two principles which should be regarded as main guides to a proper system of taxation. Those two principles,, are, first, that the citizen should be compelled to contribute to the service of the State in proportion to his ability to do so; and, secondly, that he should be compelled to contribute in proportion to the advantage he derives from the State. I do not think that anybody who has given consideration to the subject would take exception to those two main principles. There is no earthly reason - and for the matter of that there is no heavenly reason either - why the man who derives such enormous advantages from land ownership without any compensating exertion on his part should not be compelled to contribute the lion's share of the taxation from the payment of which hitherto he has been able to escape scot-free. The principle that has governed almost all taxation In this and in nearly every other country has been to tax the poor man by means of indirect taxation - to tax the man of energy and enterprise, and to allow The large landlords to go free. Why has that been the main principle of taxation in former days? Why was the landlord allowed to escape whilst the poor man had to pay out of all proportion to his means, and to the benefit he derived? The reason was, because in all the States of Australia the landlords have had a house of legislation of their own. No legislation could be passed without their consent, and they took care to protect themselves to the full. Who gets into the Upper House in Victoria? No one can get there except he is a land-owner. In every other State in which there is an elected Upper House the same principle applies. In the States in which there are nominee Upper Houses, who gets into them? The big, wealthy land-owner. He is the man who, to use a colloquial phrase, is top dog there. Being top dog he does what top dogs nearly always do - protect themselves, and secure the lion's share of whatever good things are going. We have had to endure class taxation for very many years in Australia, but now, because we want to equalize matters, and deal fairly between all sections of the community, our opponents have the coolness to come here, and mouth and prate about the class legislation which we are imposing. There is no escape from that position. If we turn to the history of the old feudal times in England - and to the history of times not so very long ago, either - we find that the lands of England bore the whole burden of taxation, not only for defence, but for all other purposes as well. The lands were held by the barons and other landowners, on the specific condition that each land-owner should maintain so many men at arms for the service of the Crown and the defence of the realm. The land-owner 4998 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - That is the Protectionist policy. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - It is nothing of the sort. The Protectionist believes in imposing a tax for the purpose of encouraging the manufacture of goods in the country, and he believes in the tax imposed at the Customs House being sufficiently effective to cause manufactures to spring up in the country. 4998 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - Then prices go up. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The honorable senator did not talk in that way when we were dealing with the Sugar Bounty Bill the other day. As soon as we produce sufficient of an article in the country to supply the consumers, the competition keeps down prices. As I have pointed out, it was only in comparatively recent times that indirect taxation as a means of 4998 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - Is there no income tax in Australia? 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Very little, and it has been imposed only comparatively recently. 4998 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - I pay a fair amount. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I should be as glad to pay as much as the honorable senator does if I were as wealthy as he is. I am not talking of the amount paid, however, but of the justice or injustice of the method of taxation. It cannot be denied that the major portion of the value of the land of a country is derived from the community. 4998 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - Values in other directions are also created by the community. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Those of us who support this Bill maintain that that community-created wealth should be applied to the service of the community by contributions to the revenue. 4998 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - The community has a right to the whole of it. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - As a matter of equity, the community would have a right to the whole. Senator Symon stressed the point very much, that there was no justification for a tax which differentiates; that a tax to be just and equitable must be equal all round in its application. A dictum of that kind will not bear examination for a moment. What have we adopted in our Defence Acts? Do we exact the same service from the old and weak, and the youths who are too young to be capable as we do from the young and strong and physically capable? Nothing of the kind. We make our first call on men between the ages of 20 and 35. We call upon the strong to bear their share of the load before we call upon the weak. But if Senator Symon had his way he would ask that tottering old men and weakling youths should bear the heavy end of the stick while the big fat land-holder would get off scot-free. 4998 KRZ 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - He could not do that, he would burst. 4998 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Many of the poor taxpayers of Australia have burst long ago because of the unjust weight of taxation placed upon them. The whole principle running through the Defence Acts is that we call first on the young, strong, and vigorous for service, and only in the last extremity do we call upon the old and weak. 4999 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - The game is up then. 4999 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - No. A country which never knows when it is. beaten is generally sure to come out conqueror in the end. The countries which are the freest and most independent to-day are those which never knew they were beaten, but which always strove to the very last. 4999 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - The old and the weak never saved them. 4999 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - According to that argument, the honorable senator would want the old and the weak to pay taxes, and allow the young and vigorous to go free. If he will follow the analogy a little further, I shall agree with him that the old and the weak cannot be expected to save the young and vigorous from taxation. Senator Symon would have us believe that the only equitable or just way would be to expect everybody to contribute alike in proportion to the value of his land and income. One of the principles of taxation which I lay down for myself in discussing this question is that a man should contribute in proportion to his capacity to the revenue of the country. But how would Senator Symon's argument bear examination in the light of that rule, which, I think, is generally admitted as a good guide to the proper principle on which taxation should be conducted? Let me point out what it would mean. Suppose that forty men are sitting down to dinner, and that on one side of the table a man has twenty portions before him, that is sufficient for twenty dinners, and on the apposite side a man has only enough for half a dinner. Suppose that you said to the latter, " I will take one-half of your portion, and leave you with only a quarter of a dinner," and to the other man, " I will take a quarter from you, too, leaving you with nineteen and three-quarter portions." Would there be any fairness or equity or justice about that? What we should do is to see that everybody contributes in proportion to his capacity to do so. To the Customs revenue a man earning £2 a week has to contribute on an average, if he has a wife and family of four children, about £15 per annum. In other words, it takes him over seven weeks to earn his contribution to the Government. How many weeks would it take a man who is deriving an income of £1,000 a year from land, and who may be an absentee? Not a single day. A poor working man earning £2a week has to contribute seven weeks to the service of his country, while an absentee land-holder receiving annually £1,000 or £2,000, or, for that matter, £10,000, would not contribute a single day's income to the country from which he derives his wealth. There can be no fairness, no justice, and no equity about such' a system of taxation' as that. Therefore, I maintain that the graduated scheme of taxation provided for in the measures before the Senate is perfectly justified from the revenue point of view. We want to compel the citizens of Australia to contribute to the Government in proportion to their ability to do so, and undoubtedly a man who owns £150,000 worth of land, unimproved value, is in a much better position to contribute to the revenue than is a man who owns only £6, 000 worth of land. After all is said and done, the taxation which is proposed in this measure is comparatively light. How much will be paid by an ordinary individual who owns, say, land which is worth . £35,000, unimproved value, but which is a very fair-sized estate? We have been almost talked to death with cries about confiscation. How much does this confiscation amount to? A man with £35,000 worth of land, unimproved value, will get an exemption of £5,000, and on the taxable value of £30,000 he will have to pay an average of 2d. in the £1, or a total of £250 a year. That is a very light tax, and the landlords ought to be extremely grateful to this party for letting them off so lightly. We have been told that a tax of 6d. in the £1 will confiscate 50 per cent. I admit that it will mean the confiscation of 50 per cent.' of the capital value. But when will it occur? The average of 6d. in the £1 will not occur until a man has £150,000 worth of land, unimproved value. I am only citing a few instances to show that the tax is not nearly so heavy as has been represented. 4999 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Is the honorable senator quite correct there? 4999 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Absolutely. 4999 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Is it not £80,000? 4999 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - No; I said the average. A man will need to have £90,000 worth of taxable value before he will pay 4d. in the £1. 4999 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - £80,000 ? 4999 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - No, £90,000. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - He will be taxed on £75,000. 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I am talking about the average. He will only pay 6d. in the £1 on what he holds over £75,000; that is, on the excess. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Cameron. - That is right. 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - These figures are absolutely correct, because I took some trouble to find out exactly what the tax meant, and I am only quoting a few cases. A man who owns £35,000 worth of land, unimproved value, will get an exemption of £5,000, so that his taxable value will be £30,000. How is the tax to be arrived at ? If you divide the value of the land in pounds sterling by 30,000 and add id., you get the rate of tax per £1 in pence. In other words, by dividing £30,000 by 30,000 and adding id., you get 2d. The tax will only amount to ah average of 4CI, in the £1 when a man has ^95,000 worth of land, unimproved value, and it will only amount to an average of 6d. in the £r when a man has £150,000 worth of land, unimproved value. 5000 K1Z 0 0 RAE, Arthur Senator Rae - How can it ever reach an average of 6d. ? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - It will never reach that amount except within a small fraction. That is a mathematical problem. But it is quite near enough for all practical purposes. It will be easier for a man to pay the full amount of the average than to look around for the infinitesimal fraction which he could never find. I think it will be seen from an examination of the typical cases I have cited that the tax is in no sense a heavy or confiscatory one. As a matter of fact, there is no more confiscation about this tax than there is about any other form of taxation. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Would a tax of is. in the ,£i have been confiscatory ? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - If it averaged is. all round it would take the whole of the capital value. 5000 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then a tax of 6d. in the £1 takes one-half of the capital value? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Yes ; but it will only be applied when a man has £150,000 worth of land, unimproved value. As a matter of absolute equity the community, having created the whole of the value, is entitled to it all. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. -No. 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - It is the landowner himself who has grabbed the whole of the community-created value and applied it to his own purposes year after year.- It is he who has been the great confiscator all the time. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Why do you not work on that principle? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - By-and-by I hope to see this matter dealt with according to absolute equity. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. -No matter what a man may have paid for his property he is to lose that? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - We have nothing to do with that. This principle is applied in Customs taxation, which the honorable senator favours. We never bother whether a man loses or gains money on the goods which he imports, or as to who owns them. We do not care a straw how many partners are in the business or how many intermediaries there are. We say, " Here are certain goods which must pay the duties no matter what happens, and nobody can get possession of them until that is done." It would be a very good thing to apply exactly the same principle to the land. A land-owner can escape the major portion of this tax if he pleases, because he can subdivide his holding and sell until he brings it within such dimensions as will bc profitable for him to hold. Of course, Senator Symon said that sellers could not find buyers. What about the enormous land hunger we have in Australia every year? Only the other day we read of 450 applicants for six blocks of land in Wagga. 5000 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - All bond fide? 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I dare say. 5000 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Admitting that they were bond fide, the honorable senator must recognise that the real cause of that rush is that land is being offered at about half its value. 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I know that on the south coast of New South Wales about twelve months ago there were about 1,100 applicants for three blocks of about third class land. 5000 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - For. the same reason. 5000 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The same thing happens in Queensland ; indeed, all over Australia there is intense land hunger. 5000 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The moment a man has acquired one of these blocks he can sell it at a big premium. 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Why? Because land is so scarce artificially that men cannot get it without paying an exorbitant price. In a country which is teeming with millions of acres of good land that is a cruel thing. 5001 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - And with nobody living on it. 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Mostly. You can travel by the railway from Melbourne to Albury, and for mile after mile see good land without a single person living on it. Yet we are told that there is plenty of land out in the dry Mallee or away in the Never Never country. That is where the men who are always mouthing their sympathy with poor men want to drive the settlers. 5001 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Is there not plenty of good Crown land ? 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - There is good land in Queensland. I am glad of the interjection, because I wish to show that in spite of our millions of acres of good land, our 660,000 odd square miles, absentee landlordism is rampant in that State. Men talk of Queensland as if it had unlimited areas of land available for settlement. But it is very hard to get a decent farm in the State which is accessible to a market, and in such a position that a man can go and make a living on it. I can prove that. 5001 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Out of a Government publication? 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I have a Government publication here, to which I would direct the attention of honorable senators. This is a report upon the central sugar mills of Queensland presented to both Houses of the State Parliament by command, and issued on the authority of the Treasurer of Queensland. It is dated Brisbane, 12th October, 1909, or just a year ago. In the references in the report to the Nerang central mill, I find the following paragraph - The Treasurer, with his Under Secretary, visited the mill on the 15th May, when Mr. Appel, the member for the district, introduced a deputation of farmers representing the various leaseholders of absentee landlords. After listening to their views, the Treasurer promised that no time would be lost in placing terms before the landlords and tenants which he hoped would be satisfactory to all concerned, and thus place the business of the mill on a sound footing. This shows that the business of the mill was not on a sound footing, because of the rapacious demands of absentee landlords. They had to be dealt with before the business of a central mill put up with Government money could be carried on successfully. I say that it is a monstrous thing that in a young country like Queensland absentee landlordism should be so rampant that it is considered necessary to direct attention to it in an official report by a Conservative State Government. I could quote innumerable instances of the kind, and let me say that in Queensland as well as in the other States we have in operation the infamous system of tenancy on shares. I say without a moment's hesitation that no system of landlordism in the world is so abhorrent to me, and so pernicious in its effects. In view of all these facts, and the enormous advantages which the owner of land derives from State enterprise - 5001 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - And from his own. 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - In some cases, and to some extent, I admit ; but I quoted a Sydney case for the honorable senator of a man who derived an enormous advantage from the ownership of land, but who had spent twenty years of his time in gaol. How much did that man's enterprise add to the value of the land? 5001 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - That is an isolated instance. 5001 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Was he not working for the Government all the time? 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Every one knows that if a man bought £100 worth of land in Melbourne sixty years ago, and then went to the uttermost parts of the earth, and did nothing to contribute to the increase in its value, he might come back to Melbourne, and find himself a wealthy man through the mere possession of the land. 5001 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - It would have been sold to recover taxes. 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - It could not be sold to recover taxes. Even local rates in Victoria are levied on improvements, and not on the land. 5001 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Is that the kind of land the honorable senator wishes to burst up? 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS -I have not come to the bursting up part of the business yet. I am dealing with the equity of raising revenue in this way. 5001 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - Equity ? 5001 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The honorable senator was not here when I began my address, and I do not intend to go over it again for his benefit. So far, I have been dealing with the absolute equity of this method of raising revenue, and that it is necessary for us to raise revenue no one will deny. We are compelled by the undertakings to which we are already committed, including the necessity of putting our defence in a state of efficiency, to raise revenue in some way. 5002 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Not so much. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - What is the honorable senator's authority for saying that? If this land tax were to bring in £3,000,000 instead of the £1,000,000 which the Treasurer expects to receive from it, the Commonwealth Government could find a good use for it without exceeding Federal functions. 5002 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - What does the honorable senator think the tax will bring in? 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I frankly confess that I do not know. I do not believe that any honorable senator can tell exactly what revenue will be derived from the tax, but we should be safe in accepting the estimate of responsible Treasury officials. 5002 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - Does the honorable senator think that 10 per cent. of the people should pay the whole of this taxation. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - This Bill does not propose to tax anybody. It proposes the imposition of a tax upon land. This is not a tax on the owner of land any more than a Customs duty is a tax on the man who imports goods liable to taxation. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then the income tax is levied on the income, and not on the man who pays it? 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - An income tax is levied on the man who pays it, but this is not an income tax; it is a tax upon land values. If I import a ton of salt, I have to pay £1 before I can get possession of it, but the tax is not upon me, it is upon the salt. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Who pays it, the honorable senator or the salt? 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I have referred to the absolute equity of this taxation. If we consider it from the point of view of the advantage derived by the person owning the land that is taxed from the enterprise, energy, and expenditure of the State, it is fully justified. If we consider it on the ground of capacity to pay, the graduation proposed effects that purpose. It was not necessary to have a bursting up proposal in order to justify the graduation at all. It is justified by the principle of taxation that a man should be compelled to contribute in proportion to his capacity to do so. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The Government do not follow that principle. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - They are following it. Honorable senators opposite think to put principles and ideas into our mouths. They would tie us down to their ideas, and would not permit us to have independent ideas of our own. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I do not think the honorable senator should accuse the Opposition of the folly of attempting to tie him to anything. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I accuse them of attempting to mislead people into believing that this method of taxation is resorted to not for the reasons we advance, but for the reasons they advance. I say that we are the best judges, and the most authoritative exponents of the reasons by which we are animated in doing anything. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - If a man does a wrong, surely the honorable senator would not accept his reason for doing it. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - So far from doing a wrong in this matter, we claim to be doing an act of tardy justice too long delayed. 5002 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Bill Sykes had the same idea. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The honorable senator is doubtless quite at home in quoting the authority of his pal, Bill Sykes, but why he should try to force the company of Bill Sykes on to me, and on to other honorable senators on this side, is something that I cannot understand. So far, I have confined myself to the revenue aspect of the Bill, and the equity of the proposed method of raising revenue. I am satisfied that what I have said cannot be successfully controverted. There is one other thing which I should like to say with regard to the equity of this tax. The major portion of the increase in our expenditure, which we may expect in years to come will be necessary in order that we may keep up an efficient defence, and I ask who is the man who ought to pay for the defence of the country ? 5002 KAH 0 0 WALKER, James Senator Walker - Everybody. 5002 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I deny that. I say that every one ought not to pay for it. I am one of those who believe that every man in Australia has a country worth fighting for, and should fight for it, if necessary. I have no sympathy whatever with those who believe that the working man has nothing to fight for in Australia. I say that he has a great deal to fight for. We possess the freest Constitution in the world, affording to every citizen of the Commonwealth the amplest opportunities. What would become of our Democratic legislation, our adult franchise, our White Australia policy, our system of old-age pensions, and the thousand and one other Democratic measures we have, put upon the statute-book if we were a conquered nation? They would all disappear in a night. In view of the splendid results achieved by the Democracy in Australia, I contend that every working man in this country has a great deal to fight for, and I believe that if ever the time comes when it is necessary to put up a fight, the working men of Australia will put up such a fight as will astonish the world. But I go further, and I say that when the working man who has nothing but his brains and his muscles to support him, gives his time to training for the defence of his country, and in the hour of danger takes his life in his hands, and is prepared to sacrifice it in the country's defence, he does all that ought to be demanded of him. It is not too much to expect that the landlord should sacrifice a small portion of his wealth for the same purpose. 5003 KQ4 0 0 MCCOLL, James Senator McColl - He must go out to fight, too. 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Very often he is an absentee, and whether he is or not, he has very much more than his life, brains, and muscle to fight for. 5003 KQ4 0 0 MCCOLL, James Senator McColl - Without his life, the rest would be of very little use to him. 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The honorable senator would not care to have to lose all his wealth when he lost his life. If wealthy people had to disgorge all their "wealth when they died, there would be no necessity for this Bill. The case of hardship cited by Senator Symon was a case in which a man had tied up his property by will forty-three years ago, for the benefit of his grandchildren. Those who own land in this country may well be asked to contribute from their wealth for its defence. The working man who gives his time and his life, has nothing else to give, but the i wealthy man howls when he is asked to make a contribution towards defence. 5003 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The honorable senator is contending that wealth ought to contribute to defence, but this Bill does not provide for that. It deals with only one form of wealth. 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I pointed out before that the principle stated in so many words in our Defence Act is that for the defence of the country, we first call upon the young and vigorous. It is only in the last extremity that we call upon the old and weak. 5003 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Are our wealthy shipowners young? 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - We are calling upon them to contribute in proportion to their wealth. The land-owner who is doing nothing to add to the value of his land is deriving an enormous advantage from our ship-owners, and from the energy and enterprise of the whole people. 5003 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Therefore, the honorable senator thinks that we ought to tax land, but not wealth, for defence purposes ? 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The possession of land and wealth by a country is the only consideration which ever leads to war. If Australia were a poverty-stricken country, nobody would dream of attacking it. Wars are undertaken for the sake of plunder. Nations go to war because of what they will gain from a victory. As we owe our liability to attack to the possession of enormous wealth, I say that that wealth ought to contribute the lion's share of the cost of defending it. 5003 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Why not make all wealth contribute to that cost? 5003 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Before I go home this evening I must walk to Flinders-street Railway Station. I must catch a train there. That is my answer to Senator Millen. We can do only one thing at a time. I hope that when he again occupies a seat on the Ministerial bench the microbe of which he spoke so eloquently some time ago will infect him, and induce him to tax other forms of wealth than that of land. We propose to tax land because we think it is the first form of wealth with which we ought to deal. While on the " subject of defence, it is well for us to ask ourselves, " What is the first necessity for the defence of this country? " Obviously, it is more population. Instead of having a paltry 4,500,000 souls in it; I look forward to the time when Australia will have a population of 40,000,000 - a population which she can well afford to carry prosperously. But she- will never carry that population while the landlord is allowed to " shoo " people off the land. What is the position in Victoria? For a number of years the population of this State was actually less at the end of a ten-years' period than it was at the beginning. As a matter of fact, Victoria is losing population every year. Although her population does not actually become smaller, she is not maintaining an increase in proportion to her birth rate. When I say " birth rate," I mean the effective birth rate. There are more persons leaving Victoria every year than there are entering it. Here is & young country, blessed with a splendid soil and great resources, and yet it carries only a paltry population of 1,250,000. The young men have to leave it because they cannot get upon its lands. So that its population is largely composed of old men, old women, and children. Upon the electoral rolls of Victoria there are the names of II,000 more women than there are of men. In the Kooyong electorate, which was so long represented by that fine old Tory, Mr. Knox, 6,000 more women than men were on the rolls at the recent election. How is it possible for these poor women ever to get husbands and to become the mothers of good families? The landlord is for ever standing in the road " shooing " the people off the earth. These are facts which honorable senators opposite cannot dispute. They can verify my statement by reference to the Kooyong electoral roll. 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The honorable senator knows the explanation of the preponderance of women votes in that electorate. 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - What is the explanation? The honorable senator is alluding to the fact that in the Kooyong electorate there is a considerable number of rich land-holders who maintain large staffs of female servants. 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That explains the discrepancy between the male and female voters in that, electorate. 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - What explains that discrepancy in Victoria? 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The fact that other States have cheaper land to offer than has Victoria. If we were to cut down the land values of Australia 50 per cent., the same thing would continue. 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - No. What has happened in Tasmania, the garden of Australia, which has a climate which should be eminently suited to our race - a climate a little more genial than is that of England? The whole of that State has a population only a little in excess of that of an English village. Its total population is 183,000. Senator Ready quoted a case the other evening in which only one family is now settled upon an estate worth £140,000 which was formerly occupied by forty families. In the same way, the young men have been driven out of Victoria by the artificial scarcity of land, and they have been obliged to seek land elsewhere. If we allow the aggregation of large estates to continue, similar conditions will obtain throughout Australia in the future. 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Where do the Victorians go to seek land ? 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Chiefly to the other States. I was driven out of the Old Country by the blighting curse of landlordism, and never, while I have breath, will I permit - if it be in my power to prevent it - the perpetuation of that curse in Australia. How are we going to defend this country if the landlord is to be allowed to "shoo" the people off the earth? And, if we cannot settle it, the result must be disastrous. By-and-by, when the enemy is at our gates, unless existing conditions are altered, the landlord will be brought face to face with the execration of the whole people. The conqueror will have no respect for his title deeds. The foreign conqueror will be his landlord. 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The difference between the honorable senator and the foreign conqueror is that the honorable senator would take half of the land-owner's possessions, whereas the foreigner would take the lot. 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I do not wish to take a farthing from him, nor do I ask Senator Millen to take a farthing. What I say is that it is only fair that those who derive such enormous advantages from the enterprise of the community, and from the spending of money by the Government, should contribute, at least,, a small share of the unearned increment. 5004 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - If the Bill adhered to that principle, I should respect it- 5004 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - That is the principle which permeates it. Unless we can settle people on the lands of Australia, we shall never have a large population here. Take the case of South Australia, where a condition of affairs prevails which is unparalleled in any portion of the world, with the exception of Monaco, where the town of Monte Carlo comprises the whole State. No less than six-sevenths of the entire population of South Australia is congregated in Adelaide. The State must be absolutely empty. 5005 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Adelaide is such a pleasant place in which to live. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The same condition, though not to such an exaggerated degree, exists in the other States. 5005 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There cannot be six-sevenths of the population of South Australia settled in Adelaide alone. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I say that there is, and I have obtained the information from official sources. 5005 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator is absolutely wrong. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - What is the population of South Australia? 5005 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - About 420,000. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The population of Adelaide represents 44½ per cent. of the entire population of South Australia. 5005 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That is not six-sevenths of the population of that State. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I should have said three-sevenths. It was merely a slip of the tongue, and a little verbal error of that sort does not vitiate the force of my argument. I say that there is far too large a proportion of the population of Australia settled in its big towns. It is essential that some means should be devised to promote settlement in the country. We can never secure a large population unless we make it fairly easy for persons to obtain land. One of the effects of this Bill will be to permit of that being done. To-day, the price of land in Australia is far too high. Only a bare living can be made out of it at the prices which are being charged for it. Most persons, therefore, who go upon the land have to begin their careers with a millstone of debt round their necks. If they experience good seasons they may pull through, but if they experience bad seasons they must inevitably go down. In the latter case, their holdings eventually go towards the aggregation, once more, of large estates. 1 say that that is an absolutely rotten way to do the thing. It fails in what it pretends to do. The experiment has been tried in Queensland, and in the other States, and while, perhaps, results have been achieved which were better than the former system, nevertheless, it has absolutely failed to accomplish what was intended. At the same time, it has laid an added burden on the men who have settled on these big estates in Queensland. The Governments of the State have spent very large sums of money in purchasing large estates, and have obtained parliamentary sanction to spend £500,000 per annum in pursuance of the same policy. But what has happened has been similar to what occurred at Cohuna, in this State, as revealed by the inquiry that is now in progress. Directly the Government goes into a district to buy an estate, the price of land jumps up. Consequently, the Government has to purchase at an enhanced price. What happens then? The Government cuts up the land purchased, and if it is not to lose money, it has to charge the settlers a correspondingly high price. The result is that every settler is handicapped for the rest of his life. 5005 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There is no estate in New South Wales that has been resumed and subdivided the owners of which could not have sold at a bigger price to-day than they obtained for it from the Government. 5005 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - That statement does not detract from my argument. Perhaps the increased price is due to artificial scarcity. The great encouragement to new settlement must be that the settlers shall get their land cheap. I have heard some people argue that this tax will injure the farmers by reducing the value of their land. But It is obvious that a tax cannot reduce the value of any land which a man does not wish to sell. The farmer who remains on his land and cultivates it, will not be injured to the extent of one farthing by this tax. His corn will not refuse to cob, his wheat will not refuse to ear, his lucerne will not refuse to grow, his cows will not refuse to give milk, his chuckies will not refuse to lay eggs, because the Federal Government imposes a land tax. It is only the man who wishes to speculate in land that this legislation will affect. It will, on the contrary, benefit all those who desire to go upon the land and settle there. One of the first results incidental to this Bill to which I look forward with great hope is that it will be the means of settling hundreds of thousands of successful, prosperous farmers in the various parts of this country. I am satisfied that, as a result of it, Australia will secure an immensely larger population than she has now. Instead of having a quarter of a million settled in a particular part of a particular State, we shall probably have four or five millions. There is no earthly reason why this little State of Victoria should not carry a population of five millions, or why New South Wales should not carry ten or fifteen millions. There is no reason on earth why Queensland should not support fifteen millions of prosperous and successful settlers. When we have so large a population, we shall have prosperity and contentment all found. Then shall we be absolutely secure from the attempts of any foreign aggressor to invade us with any hope of success. From every point of view, therefore - from the population point of view, from the taxation point of view, and from the point of view of the incidental effects of this legislation - it is eminently justified, and has been too long waited for in Australia. We never can have that large population, without which Australia cannot be safe, if we are to establish landlordism in this country. We cannot have a large population while a few people are enabled to own enormous areas upon which they will permit no one to settle. We cannot have a large population whilst good lands are used merely for grazing cattle and sheep. Notwithstanding the fact, which Senator Millen has been at pains to point out, that there are some areas of land in Australia that, at present, are most successfully used for grazing purposes, I am satisfied that they could be advantageously occupied and worked by a much larger population if they were held in much smaller holdings than is at present the case. In Western Queensland there is an absolute hunger for grazing farms. The farmers cannot get them. There are men who have gone in for as many as 150 land ballots, in the hope of being successful in acquiring grazing farms. If, instead of having one grazing area covering 200 or 300 square miles, we had a number of smaller farmers settled there- On, an immensely greater amount of wealth would be produced, and a larger number of people would be benefited. If country like that were comparatively closely settled, instead of having one station occupying the size of a principality, the settlers would be able to enjoy a measure of social intercourse that is impossible on immensely large areas where nothing is to be seen but the everlasting sheep and the everlasting cow. 5006 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There would be still little else than sheep in the far western country. 5006 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Very likely; but in addition to sheep we could have a much larger population than we have now. I shall not speak of New South Wales, because I am not familiar with it. But I can say how the grazing farmer might be treated, and how he is treated to-day, in comparison with the big squatter in Queens land. The grazing farmer gets from 5,000 to 20,000 acres of land. The squatter gets from 50,000 acres up to two or three hundred square miles. The squatter is always allowed about 25 per cent. of his holding, classed as unavailable land, absolutely free of rent, and for the remainder he pays from 1/16. to1¼d. per acre. 5006 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - More than that. 5006 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - One penny farthing is the highest price any of them is paying in Queensland. The grazing farmer does not get a single perch of his land rent free, and pays from four to eight times as much rent as the squatter does. That is how we treat the poor man in comparison with the rich man. Yet those who oppose this Bill have the gall to accuse us of seeking to impose class taxation. 5006 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The complaint is that the Government are not touching the big squatter under this Bill. 5006 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - If I had my way, I would make the tax apply to them. But blow hot or blow cold, it seems that we must incur the displeasure of the Opposition. They are continually telling us: " This is a matter for the States " ; and when we leave something to the States, they say, " You are not interfering in this matter as you ought to do." 5006 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What I say is that the Government are not attempting to remedy the alleged evil in regard to the big pastoral holdings. 5006 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Yes, we are, because there are large areas of freehold under pasture, and it is necessary that we should burst up those freeholds before we can have closer settlement. Some of these landowners have " peacocked " their holdings, obtaining the pick of the country at 10s. an acre. I know of cases where a squatter has "peacocked " all. the best land within 100 square miles', taking all the land convenient to water-courses, and thus preventing any one else from having access to them. For the reasons which I have given, the Government are to be highly commended, rather than blamed, for introducing legislation of this character. It is legislation which gives hope to the people of Australia for the future. It gives hope to the poorer people that the lands of Australia will in future be available to them. . It gives hope that we shall be able to build up such a nation as will be worthy to take its place beside any nation on this earth. It gives hope that we shall be able to defend Australia, because of our larger population here. Senator Symon has asserted that this legislation will be execrated by the widow and the orphan, who will be rendered destitute by it. In one case, which he cited, £70,000 worth of land is divided amongst seven people. He demanded commiseration for these poor widows and orphans. Such an exhibition is positively sickening. What about the poor widow who has to work at the washtub to earn bread for herself and her children, and who, in the past, has been taxed to the uttermost farthing? What about the poor, unfortunate woman who has to go down on her knees scrubbing floors for 3s. or 4s. a day? Senator Symon has not a word of sympathy for her. All his sympathies go out for the widow and the orphan who has £10,000 each in land. 5007 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - No one said that. 5007 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Senator Symon gave an actual case of a family, every member of which has £10,000 in unimproved land values, and he mentioned it absolutely as a case calling for our sympathy. I trust that I have not said anything in the course of my speech that has hurt the feelings of any honorable senator opposite. I believe that, as the result of this legislation, the population of Australia will go up by leaps and bounds, and will double itself within the next ten years. I believe that it will be the means of enabling an enormous number of people to make a good and comfortable living on the lands of this country, and' of securing the absolute integrity of Australia for all time. I believe, further, that by opening up the lands for the occupation of the people, they will be able to produce wealth hitherto undreamt of in the wildest dreams of any one in Australia today, and that in the future, instead of depending upon wool and one or two. other raw products, we shall be producing commodities to such an extent that we shall be able to support in prosperity and happiness a population nearer to 40,000,000 than to 4,000,000. If such results follow, as I am satisfied that they will, it will be said in the future that if the Labour party never did anything else, they have justified their existence by passing this legislation. The people of Australia will then be assured that any sacrifices they made in order to give the Labour party a chance of showing what they could do have been amply justified. Debate (on motion by Senator McColl) adjourned. 5007 16:06:00 Senate adjourned at 4.1 p.m.