1912-10-16 4 3 0 SENATE 4261 0 Ornate. 1912-10-16 The President took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 4261 bill Assent reported. 4261 miscellaneous 4261 KTF South Australia ALP Vice-President of the Executive Council 1 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR £3.2]. - Before we proceed with any business, I wish on behalf of the Senate to express our sincere sympathy with the sufferers from the terrible disaster that has occurred at Mr Lyell in North Tasmania. I am sure that every honorable senator feels deeply grieved at the seriousness of the occurrence. We are all glad to learn that such a large number as 50 or 51 of those working in the mine at the 1,000- ft. level, will probably be rescued. When we hear of a disaster of this description, we must all have the deepest feeling of sympathy for the sufferers, and for the wives and families of those who have lost their lives. I am sure that some members of the Opposition will be pleased to support what I have said. 4261 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - This procedure is out of order, but by leave of the Senate a member of the Opposition can speak. Leave granted. 4261 K6L Queensland 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY . - No one can feel more strongly than "I do the seriousness of the ghastly disaster that has occurred in Tasmania. Statistics furnish ample evidence that accidents that occur in mines not only in the Commonwealth, but all over the world, lead to at least double the loss of life by accidents than occur in any other industry. Speaking for the Opposition, I join with trie Vice-President of the Executive Council in expressing our sincere regret at the accident that has happened, and our strong sympathy with the wives and children who have been bereaved. Many of them, I am afraid, as so often occurs in cases of this kind, are left entirely unprotected, and possibly unprovided for. We may hope that in time disasters of this kind may be prevented by social and industrial legislation. I regret that we are constitutionally unable to give monetary assistance where it may be so urgently required, but at any rate we can extend to the sufferers our hearty sympathy. 4261 motion of censure 4261 KTF South Australia ALP Vice-President of the Executive Council 1 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR . - In view of what is taking place in the other branch of the Legislature, I move - That the Senate at its rising adjourn till Wednesday next. 4261 KLS Queensland 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS .- I was under the impression, when the Vice-President of the Executive Council referred to the Mr Lyell accident, that other honorable senators would have an opportunity of speaking upon the subject. Upon the motion now submitted, I wish to express concurrence in the expression of sympathy which has fallen from the representative of the Government and Senator Chataway. 4261 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order ! The honorable senator must address himself to the question before the Chair. 4261 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - As a matter of fact I rose to my feet to speak upon the question. I think I should have an opportunity. 4261 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - There was no question of affording an opportunity. I asked leave for Senator Chataway to address the Senate. There was no motion before the Chair. Except for the leave given the precedure would have been out of order. 4261 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Very well, sir. With reference to the motion that the Senate adjourn for a week I wish to say that I am entirely opposed to that procedure. While there is business to be done we ought to proceed with it, irrespective of what takes place elsewhere. AVe have nothing to do with a row that may occur in another Chamber. It is nothing but a squabble. 4261 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Not a squabble, but a dignified constitutional controversy. 4261 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Oh ! I thank the honorable senator for the information. I was of opinion that it was a sort of squabble that would have done credit to a fishwife. We find ourselves in this position : That no matter how serious may be the business of the country which the Senate has to transact, it is held up on occasions of this sort simply because of some fool motion being moved in another place by an irresponsible member. 4262 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - With the approval of the Opposition Leaders. 4262 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - The Prime Minister said that he would take the motion as one of censure. 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - The motion itself is one of censure. 4262 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - But the Government accepted it as such from a private member. 4262 JZC SOUTH AUSTRALIA ALP 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Lt Colonel O'LOGHLIN -Colonel SirAlbert Gould. - There is no doubt that it is a motion of censure. 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Because a private member of another place representing a constituency in Western Australia, and perhaps also representing the interests of a private syndicate, chooses to get up a row, are we to refuse to deal with the country's business? Every time a thing of this kind occurs elsewhere the Vice-President of the Executive Council asks us to suspend business until the squabble is over. I totally disapprove of that course. I maintain that we should transact the business which is before us, and pay no attention whatever to the squabbles elsewhere, especially as every one knows that they can have no other result than to waste time. 4262 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - That was what the motion was submitted for. 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I am not here to attribute motives, but every one knows that there can be but one result in this case. Why should we give up our right to transact business? The Senate is not affected in any way. Even if the motion had any serious intent, it ought not to prevent us from proceeding with our business. 4262 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - Suppose the Government were capsized? 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - Even if they were, we could proceed with our own business. 4262 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - The honorable senator would not be displeased if they were. 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator GIVENS - I know one who would not be displeased, in the person of Senator St. Ledger. He would think that the country had been saved from a great calamity, because all honorable senators opposite think that the presence of a Labour Ministry in office is a calamity. Fortunately, the country does not seem to think so, as Senator St. Ledger will probably find in the course of the next few months. I see no reason why we cannot calmly proceed with our business, and deal with it in what Senator Symon would call a dignified, constitutional manner. Is there anything in the Constitution which requires the Senate to adjourn because there is a squabble in another Chamber? If so, I should like to be informed by a great constitutional authority like Senator Symon on the point. I have failed to find anything of the kind in the Constitution. It is time that the Senate, in this age of Democracy, should set aside these old worn out, moth-eaten, white-ant-infected customs and conventions, and proceed with its business in a business-like way. Fancy any great business corporation, simply because a few of its officials had a squabble, hanging up the whole of its business ! Fancy a great railway company stopping traffic because there was a dispute amongst its directors ! We should allow the members of another place to fight out their battles in their own way. Let them wash their dirty linen or air their grievances as may seem best to them. But we have charge of our own affairs, and should proceed to* deal with them in an orderly, constitutional manner without any reference to another place. I am opposed to the motion, and shall vote against it. Senator Lt.-Colonel Sir ALBERTGOULD (New South Wales) [3.15].- I am afraid that we cannot accept the position laid down by Senator Givens. If the motion of censure now under discussion in another place were carried it would bring about a change of Government. Our leaders here form a portion of the Government, and to say that the Senate could go on with business when the Government have been defeated, and have sent in their resignations to the Governor-General, would be utterly absurd. We cannot get away from the fact that the two Houses constitute the Parliament, and that what affects the Ministry in the other House must affect them in this Chamber. They are only adopting the usual course in asking the Senate to suspend its business while the ma*ter in question is being dealt with. 4262 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - - It is a piece of time honoured absurdity. 4262 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The honorable senator has a little work before him if he is to bring honorable senators to that state of mind. I think that, instead of the honorable senator cavilling and taking objection to a motion of this kind, it would be very much better if he would table a motion so as to have the matter discussed, and, if carried here, send the resolution down to the other House, and see if they would concur in it. That is the only way in which he can effect a reform. Honorable senators may say that it is a waste of time for a member of the other House to submit a motion of censure, as it cannot be carried. I quite realize that it will not be carried, because we have sitting behind the Government a parity who will, no doubt, vote with them. 4263 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Because they have great common sense. 4263 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - On that point there is a difference of opinion. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the motion of censure will be defeated. It affords an opportunity for ventilating openly a very important matter, and enabling the public to learn all the particulars with regard to it. That will be of very great value to the public, whether they support the Government or the Opposition. Therefore, a motion of the character of that submitted in another place is not one which wastes the time of the public. It will be of very great value from the educational point of view, and, therefore, its introduction should not be deprecated. Moreover, the Opposition are following the customary course, and the only way in which the Government, be they a Labour or Liberal Government, can be kept up to the collar is to let them understand that, if they do commit any actions which are considered improper and undesirable in the interests of the country, they will be brought under consideration, and submitted for public condemnation. I think it is very desirable that honorable senators should know exactly what the position is, and how long they may remain away from the chamber, because it is of very little use to adjourn from day to day, when it can be seen that the probability is that an adjournment for two or three days will be wanted. It is very much better that those who are near to Melbourne should have the opportunity of getting away to their own States and attending to their private affairs, and coming back in good form to go on with the business which I know the Government are quite prepared to submit next week. 4263 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM , - Senator Gould has stated that it is desirable that honorable senators should know exactly where they stand, so that they may have an opportunity of attending to their business and not be required to come here from day to day; but I venture to say that the first business of a senator, as a member of the National Parliament, is the business of this country. I shall oppose this motion for adjournment, not because the proposed adjournment is for a week, but because I think that the adjourning of the Senate has become rather too fashionable. Let us cast our memories back to the beginning of the session, when a motion of no-confidence, commonly known as a motion of censure, was moved in the other House by the Leader of His Majesty's Opposition, and because of that motion the Senate was forthwith 'adjourned. If there was any justification alt all for observing the old custom that this branch of the Legislature should adjourn because the other branch was having a little bit of trouble, it was that the motion of censure was launched by the recognised Leader of His Majesty's Opposition in the other House. 4263 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The present motion is moved with his approval. 4263 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - But he is sick now. 4263 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is not sick. 4263 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - The principle is the same, whoever moves the motion. 4263 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I shall come to the principle directly. As the result of the motion which the honorable member tor Ballarat had a perfect right to move, the Senate adjourned until such time as the motion was disposed of. Shortly afterwards, and because of the time occupied in another place in discussing the motion, we were called upon here to adjourn for a month. Why? Because a motion of censure was hanging over their heads, Ministers of the Crown could not transact the business of the country from either the legislative or the administrative standpoint. Very good. The business of the Senate was again hung up for a month. We are faced to-day with something that is dignified by being accepted as a motion of censure upon the Government in their administrative capacity, launched by a private member with, I admit, the assent of the Opposition in that House. 4264 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - - What is he member for? 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - He is member for the Fremantle division in Western Australia. 4264 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - I thought that he was member for the Jarrah Company. 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I am not going to cavil at what he is doing. The effect of his representations to-day may leave the impression that there is no good timber in Western Australia. I have been accused of saying that there were no good lands in that State, but I have proved that those who accused me of saying so were wrong. Apart altogether from what the effect of his motion will be, I am going Ito confine myself to-day to a very glaring fact Whether it is a private member or not who launches in the other House a motion against the legislative or administrative acts of the Government of the day, I contend that not only should the Senate not adjourn, but that the old custom of the Leader of the other House at once moving its adjournment, and thus suspending the business of the country, ought to be at once departed from. That is the point I want to make. The Government of the day have behind them the public opinion of the country. They have behind them the majority of the men who have been placed on the floor of the Legislature by the people who are their masters, by their votes at the ballot-box. I contend in all humility that if any man, be he Leader or private member, attempts to challenge certain administrative acts of the Government, it is only right that the Government should continue their legislative and administrative work until such time as the Parliament says that they are no longer worthy of the confidence of the representatives of the people. That is, .1 contend, the basic point. I hold that the present Government, which is a Government of reform, ought to cast aside this obsolete method. The honorable member for Fremantle has moved an alleged vote of censure. 4264 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - No; the Government have accepted the motion as a vote of censure. 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I am very sorry that they did. 4264 K9T 0 0 VARDON, Joseph Senator Vardon - The honorable senator is moving a vote of censure upon the Government now. 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - They will not resign on account of that, nor will they hang up the business of the country because of what I am. saying. I wish honorable senators to understand that, although I am a member of the party sitting in support of the Government, I am free at all times to criticise or castigate any action of theirs. I regret that the motion which has been launched elsewhere has been accepted as a vote of censure. Had I been down there, I would not have dignified it with such a term. Again, the question in respect of which we are asked to adjourn is whether or not a certain kind of timber is valuable for use in the construction of a railway. 4264 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - The Rosebery Administration went out on cordite. The Fisher Government may go out on powellised karri. 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I am not worrying about Roseberys, or strawberries, or raspberries. Suppose that, at the conclusion of the present debate, a private member in another place chooses to say that the chairs, the dogs, and the spikes which, are to be used on the railway in question, or the rails which the Government have contracted with Hoskins Brothers, in New South Wales, to supply, are not what they ought to be. There would be another proposal to hang up the business of the Senate. This sort of thing can go on interminably. Any member in another place can get up and. say that a certain act, or piece of work, of the Government is not. right, and, that being so, the Leader of the Government in the Senate will come along and say that the business of the national Legislature must be hung up. 4264 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If a member chose to move a similar motion every week, how would we get on ? 4264 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - We would have perpetual motion then. 4264 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - No; perpetual inaction would be the position. Honorable senators ought to view this question very seriously. I could quite understand the Vice-President of the Executive Council standing up here, and saying boldly and plainly that the Senate has no work to go on with, because we have not been supplied with measures from the other House. That would be an honest statement. The other branch, owing to these various motions of censure and no-confidence, has prevented certain measures coming to the Senate. We cannot help that, but we have on our notice-paper certain business with which we could proceed. The day has arrived when this Parliament should set an example to the world by saying that the Government of the day, whilst they retain the confidence of the people, and have behind them a majority of their representatives, ought to continue to conduct the business of the country, and to do so until such time as the position of parties in Parliament is reversed. For that reason, I shall oppose an adjournment. Senator Sir JOSIAHSYMON (South Australia) [3.28]. - In the first place, I may be permitted to join with the Vice-President of the Executive Council in the kindly and sympathetic phrases in which he expressed his own feelings, the feelings of the Government, and, I am sure, the feelings of the Senate, in respect of the appalling catastrophe which has overtaken a number of miners in Tasmania. 4265 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I hope that the honorable senator will not pursue that matter on this motion. 4265 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I thought that the Vice-President of the Executive Council intimated that we could make a few remarks on this motion. 4265 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - No; the honorable senator can speak on the motion to adjourn the Senate. 4265 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not wish to say more than that, sir. I thought that, .perhaps, the Vice-President of the Executive Council would move a motion, and therefore I did not get up. The extremely appropriate and sympathetic observations which he made use of have my entire sympathy, and, I am sure, the approval of the Senate. With regard to the motion to adjourn for a week, there is very little which I desire to say, but two aspects have been presented, with one of -which we are familiar - it has been trotted out, if I may use the expression, a good many times before - and with the other of which, announced in a very authoritative manner by Senator Needham, we are not so familiar. The attitude of Senator Needham might be described as entirely revolutionary. 4265 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - Hear, hear ! That is what we want. 4265 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - We have it now, and as it is the most conspicuous of the two aspects, I shall say a word about it first. The honorable senator is not content with the mild and perfectly fair attitude adopted by Senator Givens, who believes that the Senate should not be tied to the tail of the House of Representatives, so to speak, to such an extent that when the Governor-General's Advisers are placed in jeopardy by a motion in that House the Senate should go on with its business. Senator Needham, with a boldness which amounts almost to audacity, tells us, not only that we should continue our proceedings, but what the House of Representatives in the face of a motion of that kind should do. Of course, we have no right to instruct the House of Representatives, but my honorable friend is too daring to be balked by any consideration of that kind. The honorable senator says that Ministers in another place, with a motion of censure staring them in the face from the business-paper, and with their position in jeopardy, should go on with the business of the country. How it could be done, I really do not know. I do not know how honorable members on the one side could debate a want-of-confidence motion while those on the other side were going on with the business of the country, but I suppose that is the sort of dual condition of things which would be brought about by my honorable friend, who has profound constitutional and parliamentary knowledge. 4265 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - I like the honorable senator's satire. 4265 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is not satire. I am endeavouring to put in plain language what my honorable friend wrapped up with all the eloquence of , which he is so great a master. The honorable senator condemned and trounced the Prime Minister in another place, and justified himself by saying that, although he is a member of the Labour party, he has a perfect right of criticism. He drew a terrible picture of what would have happened if he had been Prime Minister and in the House of Representatives when the motion referred to was launched. 4265 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - The honorable senator will pardon me, I said nothing of the sort. 4265 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I thought the honorable senator said it, and I thought at the time what a most appropriate position it would be for the honorable senator to be in, but the consequences would be (Something fearful to contemplate if the honorable senator had been in that position, and had acted according to the view to which he has given expression. A motion couched in terms of unmistakable censure has been launched in another place by a private member. When the Leader of the Government for the time being inquired whether this action was taken with the sanction and concurrence of the Leader of the Opposition, he was told that it was. I cannot understand what other alternative the Leader of the Government had in the circumstances than to accept it as a motion of want of confidence. That was the natural, constitutional, parliamentary attitude for him to adopt. I say this in defence of the Ministry, whom my honorable friend, Senator Needham, claims perfect freedom to criticise and scarify. They did not create this situation. The position is not due to their engineering. They may, or may not, deserve censure, but the existing situation was not created by them. It was forced upon them, and they had no alternative but to take up the attitude they have adopted, with all the consequences which flow from it. I wish, with great deference to Senator Needham, to say that a motion by a private member, if in terms of condemnation or censure of the Government, is just as much a motion of want of confidence as if it were moved by the Leader or Deputy Leader of the Opposition, so long, of course, as it is moved with their concurrence. As a matter of fact, the course is one which is frequently followed, perhaps not so often in our Parliament as in the House of Commons. 4266 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - I have said that it is a custom. 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I may say a word about that. I like to talk with my honorable friend across the chamber in this way, if not to convince him, at least to shed a little light on views which seem to be somewhat obscure to him. I have safe* that this course is frequently adopted, and it is sometimes tactical on the part of an Opposition to use a private member as an instrument by which to launch the thunderbolts of condemnation against the Government of the day. 4266 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - As the monkey used the cat to take the chestnuts out of the fire. 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - That is not exactly the position. Senator Needham was somewhat mistaken in the views he expressed, and evidently he has not given the subject that profound study which he may find useful in connexion with it later on. The honorable senator will find, on further consideration, that his illustration of a series of private members getting up every other day and moving motions of want of confidence does not apply at all. If the motion were moved merely by a private member, on his own responsibility, it would amount to nothing. It would be placed on the business-paper for the first private- members' day, and God only knows when it would come on for discussion. 4266 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - If such a series of motions were approved by the Leader of the Opposition, the honorable senator contends that they would be all right. 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Perhaps Senator Needham regards the present Opposition as unprincipled, but no Opposition has ever yet existed that was quite so unprincipled as to do such a thing as. the honorable senator has imagined. 4266 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - I did not say that the Opposition are unprincipled ; the honorable senator is putting up a bogy in order to knock it down again. 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The responsibility resting upon the Opposition to promote, and not retard, the business of the country is as great as that resting upon the Ministry. If the forms of the House were utilized in the way Senator Needham suggested they might be, it would be time for a reform to put a stop to that kind of thing. It would render parliamentary government unworkable. The view put forward by Senator Givens to-day, and frequently before, and with very great moderation and force, is that, although a motion of this kind was pending in another place, that should not have the effect of blocking the ordinary business proceeding in this Chamber. It has been pointed out, however, that there is no help for it. 4266 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If the honorable senator will look at the business-paper, he will find two motions on it which will have to be dealt with, no matter what Ministry is in power. I refer to the motion relating to the redistribution of seats for Western Australia and Queensland. 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I do not wish to say very much more on the subject. This Parliament consists of two Chambers. It is not a cooperation of two businesses, each of which might he carried on separately. The control of business in the Senate stands or falls with the control of business in the House of Representatives. 4266 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - Suppose such a motion were moved in the Senate, what would happen ? 4266 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The probability is that another place would take no notice of it, and for the reason that the Government are responsible to the House of Representatives, and not to the Senate. 4267 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - They are responsible to Parliament., 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - In framing our Federal Constitution, we undertook an enterprise unknown before, and which has never been used as a pattern since, namely, to engraft on the Federal system the system of responsible government. If we are to have responsible government, it must depend on one Chamber only, and that is the House of Representatives, in our case. It has been our constitutional practice, for the last eleven years, to recognise the responsibility of the Government as being to the House of Representatives, and the House of Representatives only. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - Is not the responsibility of the Government, under the Constitution, to Parliament, and not to one particular House of Parliament. I venture to say that the honorable senator cannot show me that it is otherwise from the Constitution. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON -No, I cannot, but it is inherent in the principle of responsible government. I do not overlook the control which, under the Constitution, the Senate has over the finances ; but the direct responsibility and control of the finances, and the power of the purse, rest, in spite of our control under the Constitution, with the House of Representatives. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - We could refuse Supplies if we chose to do so. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - The honorable senator is raising side issues. All that it is necessary to consider is that, for the last eleven years, all the various changes of Government that have taken place have been due to action which has taken place in the House of Representatives, in conformity with the principles of responsible government recognised throughout the British Dominions. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - That is the good old Conservative argument that, because a thing has always been so, it must always continue to be so. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - It is not a Conservative argument, but a Liberal argument. It is the argument of Democracy, and the basis of democratic government. I agree with Senators Givens and Needham that such a motion for adjournment as is now before us is particularly inconvenient ; but we are following the parliamentary and constitutional plan, and we cannot help such motions. We could not make an exception in this case, however much justification my honorable friends may think there is for it. There must be one general rule, and we are following the rule which has always been adopted in the past. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - There is business on the notice-paper which is of the most urgent cbaracter 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - There are two observations which, might be made about the business on the paper. One is that there is not such a mass of important business on the paper as to make an adjournment - the question of the length of the adjournment is another matter - of the business before the Senate a serious disorganization of the business of the country. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - If the Senate disapproved of the proposed redistribution of Queensland or Western Australia, the Commissioners would barely have time to submit another that it might be considered by Parliament before the elections take place. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - When my honorable friend says that there would be barely time, that means that there would be time, but it would be short. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - It is doubtful whether there would be time. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I am sure that the honorable senator is convinced that what he says is accurate. 4267 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The argument would be used that Parliament should accept the proposed redistribution because there would be no time to do anything else. 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - No one who knows the division of parties in this Parliament anticipates, for a single moment, that the Ministry will reach their political death in consequence of the motion launched in another place; but that does not affect the principle. 4267 K9T 0 0 VARDON, Joseph Senator Vardon - Who would be sent for if they did - the mover of the motion? 4267 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - Oh, no ! My honorable friend wishes to throw ridicule on the matter. The honorable member for Fremantle will have enough to face without that suggestion. The Leader of the Opposition would be sent for, as the motion is moved with his concurrence. But suppose that the circumstances were different, and there was a probability of the fate of the Government being decided against them. The two motions referred to certainly ought not to be proceeded with until the censure motion has been determined, because if a new Government came into power with a sufficient majority behind them, they might not wish to adopt the electoral redistribution schemes which have been recommended in the case of Queensland and Western Australia. They might say, " We will cancel these notices of motion and not seek their confirmation." 4268 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - They must seek their confirmation under Statute. 4268 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - They might ask Parliament to disallow them. These are matters which we have a perfect right to consider in connexion with the general question of whether we should change the constitutional practice which we have adopted, which is incident to our system of responsible government, and which has been followed during the past eleven years. 4268 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - We have changed many things during that time. 4268 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - My honorable friend is at perfect liberty to table a proposal that in future the discussion of a no-confidence motion in the other branch of the Legislature shall not necessarily involve the adjournment of the Senate. But we cannot make an exception in the present instance. We must have a rule one way or the other. The Vice-President of the Executive Council, I understand, intends to ask the Senate to adjourn for a week. I have noticed, however, that the Prime Minister has announced that it is intended tq proceed with the discussion upon the motion of censure in the other Chamber, and to dispose of it to-day. Of course I recognise that that result may be prophesied without any degree of certainty attaching to the prophecy. The Government cannot always be sure of the time when the discussion of a motion of that sort - which is not limited to the question of the wisdom or otherwise of using powellised sleepers - will be disposed of. Therefore, it may be impossible for the Vice-President of the Executive Council to say that the debate upon the motion in another place will be terminated in time to enable us to resume the consideration of business here to-morrow. But I would like the Vice-President of the Executive Council to " tell us whether in his view there is any probability of our being able to meet again to-morrow, instead of next week, for the transaction of public business? 4268 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - That matter may not rest with the Government in another place. 4268 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I quite recognise that. But if there were an intimation from the Opposition that the debate would close at a particular time we should know with some degree of certainty that it would terminate then. 4268 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - I am taking no risks* 4268 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir JOSIAH SYMON - I understand that. The time over which the adjournment of the Senate should extend is a matter entirely for the Government. If they are satisfied that, in the interests of public business, it is a prudent thing, to adopt the motion which the Vice-President of the Executive Council has submitted I shall support it. 4268 K5F Queensland 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS . - I protest against these repeated adjournments. At the same time I do not see how we can force the hands of the Government in this matter. Suppose that the Senate rejected the motion for adjournment, what would be their position? We have already had two long adjournments during the present session. Only a brief period has elapsed since we re-assembled, and during that period we have been working at very high pressure. The Government have taken to themselves the time which was formerly devoted to private members' business, and yet we are now asked-' to adjourn for a week. This proposal may suit honorable senators who can leave Melbourne to-night and reach their homes tomorrow. 4268 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir Albert Gould - The honorable senator will not be called upon to sit a day longer. 4268 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - I think it would be wise for the Government to take some step to render it unnecessary for the Senate to adjourn whenever a motion of censure is. tabled in the other Chamber. If they bring forward any such proposal - or, indeed, if it be brought forward by a private member - I shall support it. 4268 KLS 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas Senator Givens - The honorable senator will support it irrespective of whether it is submitted by a private member or by the Government? 4268 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - I will; but a private member would not have much chance of carrying it unless it were supported by the Government. If Senator Givens wills bring forward any such proposal, I can assure him that it will command my hearty approval. I do not" see the utility of the proposed adjournment. It may be in accordance with our constitutional practice, but, if so, the sooner that practice is altered the better. Why should honorable senators be dragged here to-day for the purpose of learning that the Senate is to adjourn for a week? The fact that a no-confidence motion was to be submitted in the other House was known yesterday. 4269 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - Not till 10 o'clock last night. 4269 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - It was known long before. 4269 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Then the honorable senator must have been at a caucus meeting. 4269 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - I was not at an Opposition caucus, or a caucus by any other party ; but I was given the information by a parliamentary messenger. He said to me, " I believe that notice of a motion of no-confidence is to be given before the House of Representatives rises to-night." 4269 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGregor - He must have been " the man on the job." 4269 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator SAYERS - I hope that in the near future the Government will submit a motion with a view to preventing these unnecessary adjournments. The motions dealing with the electoral redistributions of Queensland and Western Australia are of very great importance, and I fail to see why we should not proceed with their consideration. 4269 K7D Queensland 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - - I do not pretend to be a constitutionalist, or to have very much respect for the Constitution. I listened to Senator Symon with very great interest. Whether one agrees with him or not, the honorable senator is always interesting and instructive; but, unfortunately for himself, he is like a man who is chained, so to speak - who is "cabin'd cribb'd, confin'd. He has been trained in a particular atmosphere, and can never free himself from the influence which that atmosphere appears to exert on his mental condition. I have been reared in a freer air, and as a result have a broader outlook, and, probably, a clearer perception of what is really desirable under modern conditions. I regard the Constitution merely as a machine, which, the moment it fails to do its work properly, ought to be scrapped. 4269 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Would not the honorable senator first repair it, and give it a little more oil ? 4269 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - If it does not do what is required of it, it ought to be thrown aside and something new substituted in its stead. The speech which was delivered by Senator Symon was the most interesting of all the utterances which we have heard this afternoon. He proved to his own satisfaction, and, doubtless to the satisfaction of a majority of honorable senators, that to-day we have not government at all by Parliament, but government by the Ministry. If that be the case - and according to the honorable senator's chain of reasoning it is the case - there must be something radically wrong with our political condition. The people of this country hold Parliament, and not the Government, or one branch of the Legislature, responsible for the conduct of its affairs. If that be not the position, a condition exists which the electors have never authorized, and the abolition of which they would instantly demand if they were satisfied that it did exist. I hold the opinion, notwithstanding the cobwebs of argument that may be raised to confuse the issue, that the Ministry are responsible, not to one branch of the Legislature, but to Parliament itself, and that Parliament is responsible to the people. 4269 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - The Ministry are responsible to their makers. They are made and unmade in the other branch of the Legislature. 4269 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - The House of Representatives has no more responsibility to the people of Australia than has the Senate. Every honorable senator is just as responsible to the electors of this country as is any member of the House of Representatives. Senator Symon has said that the Government are not responsible to Parliament, but only to the House of Representatives. That statement is a ridiculous one. If we allowed such a condition of things to continue, the fault would be ours. If it did exist, we would be misinterpreting not only the spirit, but the letter of the Constitution. I wish to point out that no Act can be placed upon our statute-book until it has passed both Houses of Parliament, and that not a single farthing of money can be expended until it has been authorized by both branches of the Legislature. Where, then, does the theory of the single House come in? One House can do no more by itself than can a single blade of scissors. If Senator Fraser were to take up a scissors and endeavour to cut with only one blade, what would happen? If one of his shearers got hold of a shears which contained only one blade, and the honorable senator saw him endeavouring to shear a sheep with it, I suppose he would at once order him to the office to receive his wages. 4270 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - The honorable senator Gould cut his whiskers with a razor. 4270 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - But here is a political machine with two blades; and unless both blades cut nothing can be done. Yet Senator Symon tells us that the Government are not responsible to Parliament, but to the House of Representatives. 4270 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - That is the part of Parliament that makes and unmakes Ministries. 4270 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - Probably that is so. But the making of Ministries is not a very important matter after all. 4270 KKL 0 0 FRASER, Simon Senator Fraser - Is it not? 4270 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - No, because it is Parliament which really controls policy. Suppose that the motion in the other House is carried ? What happens ? The Government go out of office, and another Government take their .place. But that Government would be just as much subject to Parliament as are the present Government, and could do nothing in opposition to the will of Parliament. If that Government send measures to the Senate which are obnoxious' to us, they can be defeated, and the Government would be powerless, unless they were backed up by Parliament. Therefore, the power is in the hands of Parliament, and ought to be exercised by Parliament. If we permit such powers as the Constitution has given to us to be filched from us that is our fault, and we are playing traitors to the people who sent us here. Senator Symon says that if the present Government were displaced the new Government might alter the whole policy of Parliament in regard to certain measures. But there are two measures before the Senate which are not party measures at all. The Statistician has pointed out that the population has increased in certain parts of the Commonwealth, and decreased in others, and that a change in representation is necessary. Consequently we must act before the next election. It is a matter that must be dealt with. Why should we not proceed with it now? My objection to the proposed procedure is that it is not necessary. Why should we stop the business of the country simply because the Government are endangered in another place? Let me point out also that the Government of the day are always in danger. They can be defeated without any formal motion of censure being launched. They can be defeated any night on the motion for the adjournment. 4270 K7V 0 0 SYMON, Josiah Senator Sir Josiah Symon - Does not the honorable senator think that the effect of a motion of censure is to suspend the Government just as a Department may suspend an officer? 4270 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - But it does not follow that the Senate should suspend its work until the fate of the Government is decided. In addition to the redistribution business there are the Budget-papers to discuss. One serious complaint that I have to make is that financial matters never receive fair consideration. If we adjourn for a week we shall curtail our time for the discussion of that and other very important matters at a later period of the session. This sort of thing means scamping legislative work. It means Parliament exercising little or no control over expenditure, and consequently over the administration of the affairs of the country. If it is constitutionally necessary, according to the custom which has hitherto prevailed, that the Senate should adjourn, 1 think that some remedy ought to be devised. The Senate should take the matter into its own hands, and say, " We will go on with the business of the country." If the majority of the Senate says that, what happens? Senator Fraser shrugs his shoulders, and seems to be horrified at the very idea. I can understand the members of the Opposition taking up that attitude, because it is their business to harass the Government. They are playing their game. They are trying to throw every obstacle in the way of the business of the country being properly conducted. In fact, as an Opposition, they are more interested in getting the Government turned out than with getting business done. What does it' matter to us whether the motion in another place is carried or defeated? The point for us to remember is that we are not doing our work in a proper fashion. The country is not getting a fair deal from its representatives in Parliament. We are only following this course because it has been the fashion to adjourn on such occasions. 4270 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - There is something more than fashion in it. 4270 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator STEWART - Senator St. Ledger is also a slave to old precedents, which, as Senator Givens says, are white ant eaten. We ought to be as free to throw off these ancient, unhealthy customs as we are to change a law which is unsuitable to the conditions of the country. I have said quite enough to let honorable senators see what my attitude is. I intend to vote against the motion. 4271 K78 Queensland 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator ST LEDGER . - It is certainly awkward that the business of the Senate should be set aside on an occasion of this kind. But we must remember that we are working under the principles of constitutional government, where Ministers are responsible to the Crown. Those Ministers must enjoy the confidence of Parliament. A great principle of constitutional government is that a Ministry is one and indivisible. In this particular case the Prime Minister, who is the responsible head of the Ministry, has accepted the motion moved in another place as one of censure on his Government. The Government being one and indivisible, its members stand or fall together. A motion censuring Ministers in the House of Representatives would also displace Ministers in the Senate. That is the principle of constitutional government to which Parliament is subjected by the will of the people. We cannot conceive of the Senate conducting its business without responsible Ministers of the Crown being in charge of it. It may be one of the weaknesses of party government that a Ministry should stand or fall together; but the fact remains, and while we remain under constitutional government, it seems to me that the second Chamber must cease to do business when the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government accepts a motion either from a private member or from the Leader of the Opposition as one of censure. 4271 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - - I can quite understand the criticism from honorable senators on this side who feel somewhat disappointed at being asked to adjourn. But I cannot understand members of the Opposition who are a party to the move which has been taken in another place coming here and protesting against the proposal of the Government. As Senator St. Ledger has remarked, the Government can do no other than ask the Senate to adjourn, for the simple reason that a custom has grown up which we are obliged to follow at present. But what about the Opposition at their caucus meeting yesterday, or whenever they concocted this motion of censure- 4271 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - I think I am safe in saying that there was no meeting held. 4271 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Then I should like to know when this motion of censure was agreed to. Has Mr. Hedges brought it forward in spite of his party, or without their consent? 4271 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - No; I say that there was no caucus meeting. 4271 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - May I ask on what lines the Opposition party are run? Is one member of it capable of raising a question, and have all the others to be subservient to his opinion for the time being? Can one member of the party move a motion of censure, and are the Government obliged to accept it because the Leader of the Opposition says that it Has his approval ? If that is the manner in which the Opposition conduct their caucus meetings, then I can assure Senator Chataway that they are a failure at caucuses. 4271 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - I believe that we are, but I do not think that that has anything to do with the motion before the Senate. 4271 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - It has; either the motion of censure was agreed to at the Fusion caucus or it was not. 4271 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order ! That is not a matter which comes within the purview of this debate on the motion that the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until Wednesday next. 4271 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Perhaps, I may have transgressed the Standing Orders a little, but there is no subject which is so often discussed in Parliament as is the caucus, and I thought that I, too, had a right to mention it. 4271 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - Perhaps you have a right to talk about the maternity bonus. 4271 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - We have done with that matter; we will hold it over till the next election. There is no denying the fact that the Senate has drifted into a position of inferiority through following an old custom. Whenever a motion of censure is tabled in another place, the Senate, without anything but a mild protest put up by individual senators, has accepted the situation and agreed to adjourn. I wish to look at this matter from the standpoint of the Senate, quite apart from the party aspect. It is a thousand pities that we have allowed this custom to be established so firmly as it undoubtedly is. There is nothing in the Constitution which compels us to accept that custom. There are only two parties now in Parliament, and when a motion of no-confidence or censure is agreed to by the Opposition there is no reason why it should not be tabled here at the same time as it is tabled in another place. 4272 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Then we would not do any business except on that motion. 4272 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - The Senate would have a say on the motion. If it was a matter of sufficient importance there is no reason why I, as a representative of Western Australia, should be prevented from having my say on a public question any more than the honorable member for Fremantle. It is an old saying that the whole is greater than a part, but what is the position at present ? A member who represents one portion of Fremantle has actually more power and more influence in this Parliament than have I, who represent the whole of Western Australia. It is quite independent of party elements that I am putting forward this aspect of the question. The Senate has gradually been pushed by a custom, not by any part of the Constitution, into a position of inferiority to the other House when there is a very easy way out of the difficulty. 4272 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - It has to follow from the fact that censure on one Minister is a censure on the whole Ministry. 4272 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - I quite recognise that, but the position is not affected by that consideration. I recognise, too, that when the Ministry are challenged in one House they are challenged in the other. If the Government have done wrong in another place they have equally done wrong in the Senate, and should be condemned. The Senate should hold the position with which it began its existence, that of being part and parcel of Parliament. We are a negligible quantity. It is time that we brought this position of inferiority to an end. I quite recognise that parties, as parties, cannot remedy the matter, because, whilst the Opposition might very much wish to have a matter discussed at the time, if they were sitting on this side of the chamber perhaps they would change their views. It is of no use for us to try to get over the difficulty on this or any other occasion until both sides have come to a common understanding. I hold that at a conference between both sides an arrangement as to what action should be taken in the future could be easily made. 4272 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Would a vote of censure, hurled simultaneously at the Government in both Houses, cure the matter? 4272 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - That is the drift of my argument. I hold that if any wrong is done by a Government I have as good a right to challenge the Government and to bring the matter before the country by a motion here as the member for, say, Fremantle has to bring a matter before another place. I represent the whole of Western Australia, and it may be that I am more representative of Fremantle than is its member in another place. That has happened before now. At a general election 1 have received more votes as a senator from the electors of Fremantle than its representative in another place received. Why should I be put in an inferior or secondary position? I contend that as a senator representing the whole of the State my privileges should in no way be curtailed. If there is going to be any curtailment it should be in respect of the individual who represents only a part of a State. 4272 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - That argument would make the Senate the dominant Chamber. 4272 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - Not necessarily. 4272 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Yes, it would. 4272 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - It would make the Senate no more powerful than it was intended to be under the Constitution. We should be taking over no new power. I do not blame the Opposition any more than I blame honorable senators on this side, but I submit that honorable senators generally have accepted a custom which has inevitably forced the Senate into a state of inferiority, and the question which both sides have to ask themselves is, " How long are we going to tolerate that?" I recognise that my suggestion cannot be taken up at present, but I hope that it will be taken up, and acted upon, when a similar position arises in the future. I feel that by so doing we shall strengthen the hands of the Senate. We ought to retain our powers ; we have no right to allow any of our powers to be taken away. We were not sent here to allow our powers to be filched from us, but to uphold every power given to us in the Constitution, but we have undoubtedly surrendered our powers by following a custom which has grown up in the last few years - in the last nine years, anyhow, because in the first- session of the first Parliament the Senate undoubtedly asserted its rights and proved that it was strong enough to resist the other place. 4273 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Not on that matter. 4273 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - On another matter which showed that it had strength. 4273 K6L Queensland 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator CHATAWAY . - The argument which has been used is largely to the effect that, by adjourning, the Senate is sacrificing powers which it has under the Constitution. If we are sacrificing any powers that is our own fault. Instead of the Senate being the Chamber which was expected to be established under the Constitution it has become a Chamber established on party lines, pure and simple. I venture to say that it will be admitted that in no case, or in very few cases, has the Senate divided except on clear party lines. If we do that then we become a party Chamber, and to that extent I think we have weakened our influence in the parliamentary management of Australia. I should like, in common with Senator de Largie, to see the Senate take a very much stronger position than it has taken in the past, but we cannot refuse to recognise the present situation. We put ourselves in the position of other parliamentary institutions. We allow what is known as the popular Chamber - that is the Chamber which takes its authority from small electorates, comparatively speaking - to insist that it shall have control of finance, and not to recognise the control of finance which might possibly be enforced by the representatives of the large electorates, such as the various States. I hope that the time may come when we shall divide the States up into smaller electorates for the purpose of constituting the Senate. But, as matters stand now, we recognise that we must adjourn. We are asked to adjourn for a week, when the notice-paper for to-morrow contains no less than five motions in the names of senators sitting on this side. I ask the Minister to give us an assurance that later in the session a reasonable opportunity will be given to proceed with that private business, and also an assurance, as asked by Senator Symon, that if we do not adjourn to-day the Government cannot go on usefully with business to-morrow. If he will give us these two assurances the Opposition are perfectly prepared to vote with the Government. 4273 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - The debate should make it clear to the Government that they ought to be very careful in future as to the motions in another place which they will decide to regard as motions of want of confidence. We are undertaking a very large amount of public works throughout the Commonwealth. If a complaint about the use of one kind of timber for sleepers rather than another is to be considered by the Government as a motion of want of confidence, it is possible that when we begin the building of the Federal Capital some honorable member in another place may complain that the fittings of a building are not of English oak, of Australian cedar, or some other kind of wood, and the business of the Senate may be brought to a stand-still in consequence. I am addressing the members of the Government in both Houses of this Parliament, when I say that I hope that in future they will not accept every trivia] little motion placed on the business-paper in another place by honorable members who, although they are responsible to their constituents, fail to realize their responsibility to the whole of the people of the Commonwealth, as expressing a want of confidence in their administration. The business of the Senate is to be hung up for a. week because one honorable member in another place considers one class of wood better than another for railway sleepers, or that a particular syndicate has been ill-treated in not getting a contract for the supply of sleepers of a certain kind of timber. 4273 K78 0 0 ST LEDGER, Anthony Senator St Ledger - Or that another syndicate has been unfairly given a contract. 4273 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I might lend my ears to another syndicate, and submit a motion of censure upon the Government. 4273 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - On behalf of a timber trust. 4273 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - On behalf of a timber trust or combine, and because the State Government of Western Australia have been given a contract. I hope that in future the Government will not regard such trivial motions as of sufficient importance to justify the suspension of the whole of the business of both Houses of this Parliament. I recognise, of course, that the Government are on this occasion following strictly the practice which has hitherto been adopted of moving the adjournment of the Senate while a motion of censure is under consideration in another place. By following this course they are making it more clear than ever - and I intend to make it still more clear on the public platform - that a second House of Parliament is useless, and that the logical position is that there should be but one House to transact the business of the country. Every time such a motion for adjournment is moved here it is made only the more clear that the Senate is unnecessary. This becomes still more evident when we find Senator Symon asserting that the Government are responsible only to the House of Representatives. He has said that in our Constitution we have grafted responsible government upon a Federal system, and that can only be given effect by making the Government responsible solely to the House of Representatives. The logical conclusion of an argument of that kind is that only one House is necessary. I do not desire to speak at length on the motion, and I do not care how the division goes. In my opinion the Senate would best assert its dignity by going on with its business, irrespective of what occurs in another place. Even though there should be a change of Government in another place, I think we should continue to transact our business here with the majority we have. That would be an indication to the new Government that our business must be respected, and any attempt to interfere with it would be resented by the majority of the Senate. That is a possibility which must be recognised, not only by this Parliament, but by any Parliament that may follow. We may have a Government returned with a majority in one House, and with an absolute minority in the other. The sooner we abandon the practice of making the Senate dependent upon the action of individual members of another place - because, after all, that is what this motion means - the better it will be for the Senate and for the country while there is a Senate. 4274 KTF South Australia ALP Vice-President of the Executive Council 1 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR . - I have been pleased while listening to the debate with the kindly advice tendered to the Government from both sides. I wish to point out to honorable senators that there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent our going on with the business on the paper at the present time if it were advisable to do so. But it is not advisable while business is suspended in another place. 4274 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - The Government are clinging to an old custom. 4274 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - There is no old custom about it. If the honorable senator will be patient I shall inform ,him as to what Parliament really is. He would like to suggest that Parliament is the Senate, or the House of Representatives. Senator Gardiner has pointed out that we should do away with all difficulties if we had only one House of Parliament. I am not going to suggest that there should be only one House of Parliament. If I did I should say that the Senate should be that House, because it seems to be the body most capable of carrying on the business of the country expeditiously. We are all assured as to that. I want to point out that Parliament is composed of the Governor-General, the Senate, and the House of Representatives. If we leave the Governor-General out of the question, and deal only with the Senate and the House of Representatives we have a machine which may be compared to a vehicle- 4274 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - To a motor car. 4274 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - If the honorable senator pleases it may be compared to a motor car. If the front wheels of a motor car are going round, the hind wheels must go also, and vice versa. In this case the two front wheels are represented by the House of Representatives. They are stopped by a censure motion, and that stops the other two wheels represented by the Senate. Though we might go on with our business, and finish it, we should then necessarily have to stop, because we would have no more business to go on with. 4274 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - 'Let us go on with our business while we have it to do. 4274 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - The honorable senator knows very well that if there was business of very great importance on the notice-paper of the Senate, we should go on with it, and get it finished in time for the House of Representatives. The business of both Houses must finish concurrently. One House cannot finish the business of a session three weeks or a month before the other, and then adjourn until the other has finished. Both must finish at the same time, and in view of the disparity of numbers in the two Houses, there is naturally some delay in one branch of the Legislature. We are forced to recognise that. Some honorable senators have said that the Government should not take any notice of a motion brought forward by a private member. I think that, so far as the Opposition in another place are concerned, they acted wisely when they deliberated on this move, whether in Caucus or at a meeting of some other kind. 4275 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - But did they do so? Senator Chataway has denied it. 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator MCGREGOR - The Opposition came to a wise conclusion. They selected the only member of their party in another place who knows, or thinks he knows, anything about timber and railways to submit the motion. It was surely better that he should do so than that the motion should be placed in the hands of the Leader of the Opposition, who knows more about literature, poetry, or kite-flying, than about such matters as those of which the honorable member for Fremantle has some practical knowledge. 4275 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - When the honorable senator is aware that the Leader of the Opposition has been ill, and in bed for a fortnight, he should leave him alone. 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - I know that he was in his place only the other day. I had no knowledge that he was ill and in bed. I am sorry to hear it, but, even if he were well, I should make the . same remarks. It was wise on the part of the Opposition to select as the mover of the motion, which has been referred to, a man who knew something about the business. When that honorable member took the action he did take, the Prime Minister was prompt in eliciting the information that it was done with the concurrence of the Opposition. 4275 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Then why should they deny it here? 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - They only pretended to deny it. 4275 K6L 0 0 CHATAWAY, Thomas Senator Chataway - We only denied that there was a meeting on the subject. 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - -The Prime Minister was assured that it was a move on the part of the Opposition. We have nothing to do here with the merits of the case. We are not considering whether the use of powellised karri, jarrah, or steel for sleepers would be the more satisfactory; but we are concerned with the fact that business in another place has been suspended, and consequently the business of the Senate cannot be proceeded with profitably. It is for that reason I have moved the adjournment. This course has been taken with a view to meet the convenience of a majority of the members of the Senate. We do not want to adjourn only until to-morrow, when we might, perhaps, find that the want-of-confidence debate in another place had not been completed, and have to adjourn to a later date. It is most convenient, in the circumstances, that we should adjourn until next Wednesday. If the Opposition bad come to a conclusion last week, and had submitted their motion on Friday last, it would have been possible to inform honorable senators coming from the other States that there would be an adjournment of the Senate, and it would not have been necessary for them to attend to-day. But there was not information given on the matter until last night. Although Senator Sayers met a messenger in the corridor, just as he might meet " the man on the job," or " the man in the street," or "the man on the boat," and get information from him, there was no official information given as to what the Opposition proposed to do. 4275 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - It was well known all over the building. 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - I did not know it. 4275 K5F 0 0 SAYERS, Robert Senator Sayers - Because the honorable senator was not here. 4275 KTF 0 0 MCGREGOR, Gregor Senator McGREGOR - I was here, but I knew nothing about it until I saw the announcement in the newspapers this morning. I may say, however, that a very peculiar thing occurred which has some bearing upon the matter. I had a request by wire from an honorable senator last night asking for how long the Senate was going to adjourn. It was clear, therefore, that there was information on the subject in other quarters, although I did not know of it. I have not yet been able to send a reply to that wire, but I hope I very soon will. The motion for the adjournment was moved in the interests, and to meet the convenience of, honorable senators, who will be able to come back next Wednesday with some assurance that the business of the Senate will be gone on with. I might say, in reply to Senator Chataway, that I have already, on a previous occasion, given an assurance that the Government will do all they possibly can to give private members who have business on the notice-paper an opportunity to have it discussed. I can go no further than that. I give that assurance, honestly ; and, in the circumstances, I do not think any honorable senator will have any serious cause of complaint if the Senate should adjourn as proposed. Question - That the Senate, at its rising adjourn till Wednesday next - put. The Senate divided. 20 2 Majority ... 18 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. 4276 16:51:00 Senate adjourned at 4.51 p.m.