1914-10-15 6 1 0 SENATE 195 0 Senate. 1914-10-15 The President took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 195 bill Assent to the following Bills reported: - Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. Supply Bill (No. 2). Supply Bill (Works and Buildings) (No. 2). 195 miscellaneous 195 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Pursuant to standing order 38, I lay on the table my warrant appointing the following senators to be the Committee of Disputed Returns and Qualifications: - Senators Barnes, Lt. -Colonel Sir Albert Gould, Keating, Long, Lynch, Shannon, and Turley. 195 Questions 195 195 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN - I desire to ask the Minister of Defence the following questions : - Is it' a fact that by direction of the Military Censor, on the 9th September, a military guard, with fixed bayonets, and led by a colonel, made a raid on the office of the Woman Voter; Melbourne! Docs he consider that such an overwhelming display of force was necessary, seeing that the newspaper involved was being conducted by three well-known and highly respected female residents of Melbourne? Will be take, or has he taken, measures to prevent a repetition of this stupid military despotism at a time when we are liberally providing men and money to destroy military despotism in another country? 196 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I believe it is a fact that a military guard was placed over the office of this newspaper. Such a statement was made to me by a deputation, and I think that the minute that has gone out in regard to the proceedings brought under my notice by the deputation will prevent a recurrence of them. 196 196 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL - I ask, sir, as a matter of privilege to have my name removed from the Printing Committee. 196 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - The correct procedure is for some honorable senator to move that Senator McDougall be discharged from the Printing Committee, and that motion can be moved without notice. Motion (by Senator Russell) agreed to- That Senator McDougall be discharged from attendance as a member of the Printing Committee. 196 196 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Will the Minister of Defence give the Senate an idea of what the provisions of the pension scheme referred to in the Governor-General's Speech are likely to be! If I may be permitted' to explain my reasons for asking the question, they are that many of the men who are going to the front are seeking to effect extra insurance on their lives, and the insurance companies are charging them a special war bonus of £5. I desire to know whether the Minister will indicate to the men the provisions of the scheme, so that unless it is absolutely necessary they will only be put to the expense of the extra premium of £5 demanded by the insurance companies. 196 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - As I informed the Senate yesterday, I am not yet in a position to give all the details of the scheme, for the reason that it is still under the consideration of the Cabinet. I am, however, in a position to say that the minimum pension a year will be £52 in the case of a woman whose husband has died, and £13 for each child up to the sum of £52, so that in the case of a widow with four children the pension will be £104 a year. In a case of total disablement, in addition to the £52 to be paid to the wife, there will be half that amount payable on account of the fact that her husband has also to be provided for, and an equivalent amount for the children. The question of provision for dependants other than widows and children will be determined on the same basis as that laid down in the Commonwealth Workmen's Compensation Act, and the percentage as to disablement will also be that of the table adopted for that Act. That will be the minimum. I cannot make any statement as regards the other matters. 196 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir Albert Gould. - Up to what age in the case of children? 196 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - Up to the age of sixteen years. 196 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Widows and children of those who die or are killed in action? 196 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - That is so. It will apply, not only to the Military, but also to the Naval Forces, and will come into operation on the departure of members of either Force from Australia on active service. 196 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice - Does the system of deferred pay apply in any, and, if so, in what cases in connexion with the members of Expeditionary Forces? If not, will the Government consider the advisableness of extending such system wherever practicable ? 196 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The answer is- Yes. It ranges from1s. per day in the case- of privates to 8s. per day for colonels. 196 papers The following papers were presented : - Fisheries - Zoological results of fishing experiments carried out by F.I.S. Endeavour,. 1909-10- Part I, 1911. Part II. 1912. Part III. 1912. Part IV. 1914. Biological result of fishing experiments carried out by F.I.S. Endeavour, 1909-14- Vol. II., Part. 1. 1914. Vol. II., Part 2. 1914. Vol. II, Part 3. 1914. Vol. II., Part 4. 1914. Geelong Automatic Telephone Exchange - Report on working (dated 19th November, 1913). 196 Questions 196 196 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - The Assistant Minister has tabled some papers in connexion with the work of the trawler Endeavour. In view of the fact that they are printed, I should like to ask whether he will be good enough to see that honorable senators each receive a copy of them ? 197 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL - I shall bring the honorable senator's request under the notice of the Minister of Trade and Customs. 197 197 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator HENDERSON asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice - Has a bi-weekly mail contract been let from Toodyay to Bolgart, Western Australia? Was any petition from the local residents presented in reference to this contract? If not, at whose request was the contract entered into? What is the amount of the contract? Is it not a fact that a weekly road mail service is in existence, which serves the settlers around Bolgart, and also settlers for 25 miles further on, for £87 per annum ? Will the Minister lay on the table of the Senate all papers relative to this matter? 197 KKZ ALP 1 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - The answer is - Inquiries are being made, and replies will be furnished as early as possible. 197 197 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator READY asked the Minister representing the Minister df Home Affairs, upon notice - What orders for sleepers has the Commonwealth Government given to Tasmanian firms for the Transcontinental Railway? What are the prices paid and quantities ordered from Tasmanian firms ? 197 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL - The answers are - One order has been placed with the Huon Timber Company Limited, Hobart. Price paid, '5s. 7d. per sleeper, delivered on ship's slings on railway trucks at Port Augusta. Quantity ordered, 100,000. 197 197 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice - As some <;f the War messages received from, the High Commissioner by the Minister for External Affairs are marked " Official," whilst others are marked " Reliable," is it to be understood from this that Official messages are not reliable? 197 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The answer is- No. It is to be understood that the information contained in messages marked " Official " is from official sources, and that marked " Reliable " is from sources other than official, yet considered reliable. 197 197 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN asked the Minister of Defence, upon notice - Is it the intention of the Government to substantially increase the pay of Area Officers, with a view to those officers devoting the whole of their time to their military duties? 197 K0F ALP 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The question will be considered later on after the present war conditions cease. 197 197 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon, notice - Upon what date was the Automatic Telephone Exchange opened for public use in Geelong ? The number and names of similar exchanges now open, with the respective dates of opening same? Has the Postmaster-General any reports on the working of such exchanges, and, if so, will he cause copies of same to bc tabled in the Senate? 197 KKZ ALP 1 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - The answers are - The automatic telephone exchange was opened for public use in Geelong on the 6tb July, 1912. Including Geelong, six automatic exchanges are now opened for public use in the Commonwealth. Particulars are as follow : - A report regarding the working of the Geelong Automatic Exchange will be laid upon the table of the House as desired. With respect to the other exchanges, the period of operation has not been sufficiently lengthy to admit of reliable reports of a formal nature to bc obtained, but in every case, apart from the slight defects and faulty methods of operating inseparable from the introducing of a new system, the service being given is satisfactory. 198 miscellaneous Debate resumed from 14th October (vide page 139), on motion by Senator Guy- That the following Address-in-Reply be agreed to : - To His Excellency the Governor-General. May it please Your Excellency - We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Australia, in Parliament assembled, desire to express our loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign, and to thank Your Excellency for the Speech which you have been pleased to address to Parliament. Senator Lt.-Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD (New South Wales) [3.17].- We may fairly congratulate the Leader of the Opposition upon the attitude which he assumed in dealing with the many proposals submitted in connexion with our Expeditionary Forces. It is unnecessary for me to elaborate the matters with which the honorable senator dealt, or to repeat his reminder as to the very important position which Australia occupies in regard to a possible result of a war of the present magnitude. Senator Millen referred to the desirability of our being in a better position with regard to the despatch of future Expeditionary Forces than we found ourselves in in connexion with the starting of the present Force as the result of a lack of proper equipment. We should, at least, at all times, have at hand the material necessary for the despatch of an Expeditionary Force. I am prepared to go a step further than Senator Millen in this matter, though I am not disposed to go as far as Senator Bakhap would suggest in making provision for Forces for military purposes. I believe that Lord Kitchener, in his report, recommended the establishment of an Expeditionary Force of 10,000 or 20,000 men to be available for foreign service at any time it should appear to be necessary to despatch men from Australia, instead of having to rely at the initiation of such a Force entirely upon obtaining volunteers for the purpose. The Government should deal with the matter from the standpoint of the desirability of being fully prepared for such an emergency. If we were prepared to despatch at any moment an Expeditionary Force of 10,000 or 20,000 men, the arrangement would be an excellent one for the Commonwealth. The men forming such a Force need not be permanently employed - they would merely require to be enrolled for that special purpose. But if they were permanently employed, ample work could be found for them in drilling and instructing our partially paid Forces. Under such an arrangement, it would not be necessary, in time of national emergency, to enlist raw recruits who have to be instructed in military duties until they become efficient. Instead, we should have the nucleus of a thoroughly capable fighting Force. We must all recognise that considerable delay has been experienced in despatching our first Expeditionary Force overseas. But every provision must be made for its safe convoy, and that consideration may possibly be the cause of that delay. 198 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator Maughan - They may not have as great a distance to go as the honorable senator thinks. 198 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We anticipate that they are going to the Old Country, in order to take part in the war on the Continent. We are all gratified to learn that our Naval Expeditionary Force, of 1,500 men, has performed valuable work in the Pacific. One matter which struck me very forcibly in the Governor-General's Speech has reference to finance. The Vice-Regal utterance contains no hint as to how the expenditure on our Expeditionary Forces is to be met. Unfortunately, our revenue during the last twelve months has declined, while our expenditure has increased. The Government, therefore, should have been prepared to give us some indication of the way in which they propose to finance the raising and despatch of our Expeditionary Forces, as well as the ordinary business of the country, with which they talk of proceeding just as if no war were in progress. I have heard it whispered that the expenditure incurred upon our Expeditionary Forces will be defrayed by a special tax upon* the community. It has also been suggested that it will be met by a loan, or by the issue of paper money. 198 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - Which method does the honorable senator prefer? 198 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I will answer that question presently. The point which we have to consider is: "What special expenditure are we likely to incur?" It has been estimated that we shall require to spend £9,000,000^ or £10,000,000 in this connexion during the next twelve months. That would represent a very heavy tax indeed. We have also to recollect that it is necessary to continue a vigorous policy of public works, in order to prevent the aggregation of unemployment in our midst. The Prime Minister talks about unifying the railway gauges of Australia, and suggests an expenditure of £30,000,000. on the work of unifying the main line between Brisbane and Melbourne. Then the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway is in course of construction. That is one of the fixed charges which we have to meet, and the sooner the undertaking is completed the batter. 199 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - Are we not busy with it now ? 199 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD. - I believe that we are. It seems almost impossible to finance our obligations in connexion with the war, by means of additional taxation. Are we, then, to raise loans for the purpose, or are we to issue a large quantity of paper money ? I have heard both alternatives suggested. If we are going to establish a paper currency it must be either a convertible or an inconvertible currency. A convertible currency presupposes the possession of sufficient gold to redeem the notes as they are presented from time to time. If, on the other hand, we are to establish an inconvertible currency we must pause to consider what will be its effect upon the people of this country and upon industry generally. We have only to look to other portions of the world to ascertain that. We know that at the time of the war in America it was decided to finance that war by means of a paper currency. The issue of $150,000,000 of a paper currency was approved, and it was quickly followed by a further issue to a similar amount. That currency became less valuable from time to time until it was not worth more than 50 per cent, of its face value. 199 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - Because the Government of the United States repudiated it. 199 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - They repudiated it because they were not bound to redeem the notes with gold. That is the disadvantage attaching to an inconvertible currency. 199 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator Maughan - It did not arrest the progress of the States. 199 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I venture to say that when a paper currency is reduced in value by at least 50 per cent. - a currency which people have to accept - it must materially7 interfere with the progress of the community. 199 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The Government of the United States would not take its own money, and yet it endeavoured to force it on the people. 199 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - And with an inconvertible currency, does the honorable senator say that we should be able to pay every penny as it became due ? I. would also remind him that any paper currency would be valueless outside the boundaries of the Commonwealth. Now we have to import goods from Great Britain and other portions of the world, and we must be in the position to pay for them. 199 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - We should make ourselves self-contained. 199 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We shall have to import. If we have a currency which is not convertible we shall surely drive gold out of the country to pay for the goods which have to come into it. We buy our goods in one part of the world, and, as a rule, we pay for them by the goods we send there, but we cannot have it all on one side only, and therefore we would find ourselves in a very great difficulty with regard to a currency of that character. When we were debating the question of the Commonwealth note issue a great deal of stress was laid on the necessity of having a certain reserve always available to redeem the notes. The reserve was fixed in the first instance at 40 per cent. It has since been reduced to 25 per cent. 199 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - Although the Act has been altered, the reserve has not been reduced. 199 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - -The reserve remains at about the old amount, but Parliament passed an Act to enable the Treasurer, if he sees fit, to reduce it to 25 per cent. However desirable the Treasurer might think it to take advantage of that Act, he would always have to keep a considerably greater reserve than 25 per cent, in order that he should never go below his minimum. It has been recognised all through that it has been necessary to have a substantial reserve. Do the Government propose to say that they are not going to redeem their paper money? If they repudiate that provision in their law, and tell people who present their notes at the Treasury that they cannot get gold in exchange for them, it will certainly not add to the value of the notes. Once the public got the idea that any such policy was going to be pursued, it would depreciate the value of the notes materially, and it would be much worse if the Government determined to issue an excessive amount of notes. If the financial difficulty is to be met by the Government by this means they will have to issue an excessive amount of paper money to meet their engagements during the period of the war. The normal absorption of notes by the community is small. According to the latest returns, about £14,000,000 worth of notes were issued, for which the Government received 14,000,000 sovereigns, but not more than between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000 of the notes are in circulation at any given moment. Of course, there are reasons which make it necessary for a large amount of notes to be held in excess of the quantity in circulation, but the country cannot absorb more than a certain amount, and if there is a desire on the part of the Government to finance the present emergency by means of an inconvertible currency they will by that means depreciate the value of their notes, and materially interfere with the progress of the people, because such a policy will have a tendency to impoverish the country generally by interfering with the healthy gold standard. I hope the Government will not adopt this course. It has not been resorted to in Great Britain to finance the enormous expenditure which the Imperial Government has to face in connexion with the war. They are issuing Treasury -bills from time to time, and I do not see why our Government should not adopt a similar course. Why not go to the Imperial people, and put a loan on the market there? Money is to be obtained at a fair and reasonable rate, and by that means the burden on our own people would be eased, and we should be able to meet all our obligations,1 while retaining our gold standard. 200 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator Maughan - Does not the honorable senator think that the issue of Treasury-bills is dangerously socialistic? 200 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We are justified in dealing with the present financial emergency by the issue of Treasury-bills, which are merely short-dated loans for which you pay probably a higher rate of interest than you would for ordinary long-dated debentures. People will be content to take our bonds, knowing that they have a very rich Commonwealth at the back of them. There are four cardinal points in connexion with a paper currency, which I recommend the Government to consider before they decide to extend our present one, as they may be inclined to do. 200 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - They have many good British precedents for it. The honorable member will remember when Peel suspended cash payments for three years. 200 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Such things have been done, and serious results have invariably followed, so far as the people are concerned. The four principles that should always be borne in mind in connexion with the issue of paper money are safety, elasticity, convertibility, and uniformity. The benefit of elasticity is that the issue rises and falls according to the requirements of the country. 200 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Convertibility overshadows all other considerations. 200 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD .- That is so. If I have in my pocket a pound note issued by the Treasury, I want to be sure that I can convert it into a sovereign when I want to. I am satisfied so long as I know the Treasury has a reserve which will meet all reasonable requirements, but if I find myself unable at any time to convert a note into gold, I say to myself, " It is" not as good as I thought it was, and I am not prepared to accept paper money if I can get payment for my goods in gold." I shall not be satisfied to accept payment in paper money which is worth only 17s. or 183. per £1. 200 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator Maughan - In 1893 many of the private bank notes were not worth 5s. 200 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - An Act was passed by the Government during that time of crisis compelling the people to accept the notes at their face value, but there was a Government guarantee that payment would be made in due course, and the amount of notes issued to the public was not more than what the public could absorb under ordinary normal conditions of business. The trouble was that, at tEat time, there Lad been over-speculation, and people found that they had been building up houses of cards. When these began to come down, a run began on one bank, and then on another. We learnt then the lesson that it was incumbent upon the banks to be very careful with regard to the issue of notes, and legislation was introduced to make the notes a first charge on the property of the banks themselves. One would have been prepared to go' even further at that time by limiting the amount that the banks should be able to issue in the way of notes, fixing the limit in accordance with their capital, resources, and power to meet their obligations. All this shows the difficulty that surrounds a currency which cannot be readily converted into sovereigns. When the people in the crisis of 1893 found first one bank and then another going, and there was talk of other banks dosing their doors, they began to say, " This paper money is probably of very little value; therefore, we will rush it in on the banks, and get it converted into (.ash, if possible." The same principle would apply in regard to the issue of paper money by the Government. The only means of safety in that regard is to let the public realize that the notes will be convertible whenever it becomes necessary in the interests of their business to convert them into cash. 201 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - Then there will not be any great demand made on the Treasury ? 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The credit of a nation is dependent on the power of the nation to pay its obligations in gold whenever they fall due. 201 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - What did you do in New South Wales in 1893? 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I have just been talking about that matter. 201 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The State Parliament made paper money legal tender. 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The State Government, realizing that there was not more than had been regarded as the normal amount of paper money, said, " Hold your notes for six months, and we will give you a guarantee that everything will come through all right." Everything did come through all right, and, except in the case of one or two banks which got into difficulties, the banks paid every shilling on their notes. 201 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The Commonwealth Bank is guaranteeing private banks and private financiers that everything will be all right. 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I venture to say that the Commonwealth Bank is not guaranteeing or assisting a single financial institution in Australia. I say, further, that it is' not in a position at the present time to give a guarantee of the kind. My honorable friends may talk of the Commonwealth Bank, but what is the amount of its capital? It consists of £1,000,000. which has been borrowed, and deposits which have been placed in its coffers by men in the country who want a place where they think that their money will be absolutely safe. 201 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Its very existence has created confidence. 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I assert that the Commonwealth Bank to-day is not helping a single bank in the community in the way in which ' my honorable friends speak of. It has entered into the banking business, and it is but one bank amongst many that are doing business. A man will go to the Commonwealth Bank with just the same confidence as he will go to any other bank. 201 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - With more confidence, surely ? 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No. 201 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - How much money has been put into the Commonwealth Bank since the war commenced ? 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I know individuals who win take their money from one private bank and put it in another just as it may suit their purpose or business. 201 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - What about persons who put their money into the chartered banks prior to 1893, and cannot get it to-day? 201 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I admit that there were many persons who had their money in banks which closed their doors before any steps were taken to assist banking institutions. 201 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I refer to banks which never closed their doors.- 201 KLZ FT; ANTI-SOC from 1910; LP from 1913 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator ALBERT GOULD -Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD. - Any note issued by a bank which has remained in. existence has been good and valid for twenty years. 202 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - What about the fixed deposits? 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - That was a matter of arrangement between the creditors and the banks at the time. 202 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The banks took the money. 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I admit that, at that time, we had a very serious crisis. 202 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Have we not one now ? 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes; but we have to deal with these matters in the light of experience, and not to act like blind men, running away and putting our heads in holes and thickets, such as other men have done, only to find ruin1 staring us in the face. 202 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - Do you not believe that the crisis would have been much more severe if the Commonwealth Bank had not been in existence? 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No. Since the crisis of 1893 there has not been a difficulty in regard to any of the banks, and I remind my honorable friends that even Government banks have had to close their doors for a time. I do not think that any one can point out to me any other bank in existence to-day which is run on exactly the. same lines as is the Commonwealth Bank. But, be that as it may, I make these remarks because I think that these words of warning might just as well be uttered at the present time as held back until, possibly, some indication of the difficulties to which I have referred comes before us. I would impress upon, the Government that there is a very much better way of financing, the war business than with paper, which may be inconvertible, and which probably will be depreciated in value. I remind honorable senators that the only persons who are compelled to accept these notes are the vendors of goods, although some of the goods may have been imported from the other end of the world, and paid for in gold. Now, if the goods have had to be paid for in gold, and the paper currency begins to depreciate, the public may depend upon it that they will have to pay higher prices for the articles than would be payable if we had a gold standard or a paper currency which was convertible whenever it was presented to the Treasury, because the whole secret of the confidence of the people in paper money is that the paper is as good as gold, and will be redeemed whenever the necessity arises. While that is the case there will be no difficulty experienced. In regard to taxation we hear frequent references to the old sayings about putting taxes upon the people who are best able to bear them. Senator Stewart is very anxious to see the land value tax considerably increased. The persons who are best off are naturally those who are called upon in the first instance to pay taxation, but honorable senators must bear in mind that no man pays a tax without getting a return of it in the long run if it is possible to pass it on to somebody else. If a tax is levied on the value of goods the public have to pay a bigger price for the goods. Again, if a tax is imposed on the rental value of property, the people have to pay a bigger price for what they require, because it is the duty of n business man, in his own interests, to see that he gets an adequate profit on his outlay. 202 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - That argument does not apply to land. 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It does. Take, for instance, any of the great city stores which stand on sites worth £100,000 or £200,000. These storekeepers have tq pay a large amount by way of land tax, and does the honorable senator mean to tell me that that fact is not taken into consideration in fixing the standard of value of the goods sold in the stores? Whatever my honorable friends may do in this regard, they will find that to a certain extent the taxation will be passed on from time to time. 202 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Do you reckon that we ought to have no taxes? 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I dare say that we would all like to be able to live without paying any taxes, but I certainly do not make a 'suggestion of that kind. 202 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - How would you raise the revenue? 202 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator Ready - I suppose by duties on tea and kerosene. 202 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We have to raise the revenue from some source. Of course, a- man who would say that we should not place a tax on anything should not be in Parliament- 203 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - What do you suggest? 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The Government are the responsible persons, and when they make their suggestion I will criticise it if necessary. In the meantime, I bring before honorable senators two or three broad considerations in connexion with the present emergency - the expenditure on the Expeditionary Forces and the maintenance of those Forces. 203 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator Ready - The honorable senator is arguing that we should not tax the rich at all, because they can pass the tax on to the poor, is that it ? 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I am very sorry that the honorable senator cannot quite grasp my meaning. I do not think that, if I were to talk until the close of this sitting, I could make my meaning sufficiently clear to him, because none are so dense as those who do not want to understand. Of course, I do not impute anything to my honorable friend. The GovernorGene.ral's Speech enumerates an enormous number of proposals which the Government desire to see carried into effect. In point of fact, the window dressing is pretty strong', because nearly everything which the Government have been advocating during the last few years finds a place in the scheme of work for the session. 203 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The Government will deliver the goods. It is not a case of window dressing. 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - It is window dressing at the present time. There are, of course, several matters which are common to both parties. It was very strongly urged at the recent election that this was to be a financial and war session. No one imagined that a large number of proposals of a controversial nature were to be considered, but honorable senators will find in the Governor-General's Speech many matters which are of a very highly, controversial nature, and which must necessarily be discussed very fully. We are told that proposals to- amend the Constitution will be placed before the people at an early date. I understand these to be the referenda proposals which have had two unsuccessful runs already, and which it is proposed to submit for the third time to see if by any means the people can be hoodwinked into accepting them. 203 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Were you not going to agree to your leader's proposition to put certain questions before the people at an early date if he obtained power? 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD .- The leader of the Liberal party said, over and over again, that, wherever it became necessary to amend the Constitution in order to carry out the powers granted to this Parliament, he was quite prepared to assist in passing such an amendment; but the proposals I have been referring to are such as would practically destroy the autonomy of the States, and these we are not prepared to accept. 203 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - My point is that your leader said that he intended to submit proposals for altering the Constitution if he were returned with a majority in both Houses. 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - Yes, of the character I have indicated by my last few observations. 203 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Our Government will submit them. 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - The Labour Government will submit proposals of a much more drastic character, for they will destroy the autonomy of the States. In the desire to bring about a state of uniformity with regard to legislation, and to have a unified form of government, instead of the Federal form- 203 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - When your Government tried to destroy the Senate, you did more towards bringing about unification than anything else did. 203 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We have not destroyed the power of the Senate. There is another question which must necessarily provoke long discussion, and .that is the question of the initiative and the referendum. I do not wish to discuss the value of this proposal. I only want to point out that it is a matter of very great concern, which necessarily will . provoke a great deal of debate. We are told that one of the first proposals to be introduced, apart from the war proposals, will be an alteration of the Tariff. We have fought the question of Free Trade or Protection more than once in Australia, in the country, and in the Parliament. We realize that the people have accepted a Protectionist Tariff, and we also realize that there have been promises made that the Tariff - which, of course, contains an enormous number of anomalies - will be rectified, and rectified in accordance with the policy accepted by the people. The only difference between the two parties at present is that one proposes to deal with this matter in the light of knowledge, and the other in the light, not of knowledge, but of prejudice. Tariff Bills have been passed over and over again in this and in other Parliaments and we know that it is the most expert lobbyist who has had the best chance of securing what he desired in the way either of the increase or reduction of duties ; whilst men who might have had very much better cases have had to go to the wall because they have not been expert at lobbying. The late Government did not in any way try to shirk the question of a revision of the Tariff, but they adopted the wise course of asking the Inter-State Commission to make an inquiry and to report upon the matter. 204 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - To inquire from lobbyists. 204 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - No; from every man who chose to appear before them and give evidence on oath in connexion with the duties with which he was concerned. I venture to say that a great deal of the evidence which has been obtained on oath by the Inter-State Commission in connexion with the Tariff could not have been obtained in any other circumstance. While it has shown that in some cases an increase in the duties appears to be necessary, in other cases the increased duties demanded have not been justified by the evidence given in support of them. Whatever our policy in this regard may be, we are agreed that the Tariff should be fair and equitable in its bearing upon the interest of all concerned in production. 204 K3E 0 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - Australia wants a Tariff this generation, and not in the next. 204 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I am aware of that; but I still say that it is better that the Tariff should be revised in the light of knowledge and experience. 204 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Did we not have a Commission on the Tariff before, the members of which took evidence on oath ? 204 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - We had; but the Royal Commission to which the honorable senator refers had not the same power and weight as has the Inter-State Commission. The Tariff Commission consisted of four Free Traders and four Protectionists, and each member of it sought to make out as good a case as he could for the policy he supported. In the Inter-State Commission we have a body composed of men entirely free from party interests or bias, and sworn to make a faithful report upon the evidence brought before them. I have every confidence in the report they will make, and though I do not say that Parliament should be guided entirely by their report, I do contend that it would be wiser and fairer to delay the consideration of Tariff revision until we have received the report of the Inter-State Commission, which ought to be available at no very distant date. I trust that it will be available before we are called upon to deal with the Tariff, and if it is I shall then have no objection to offer to our going on with a revision of the Tariff,although there is a great deal of other work of a very urgent character which should? be proceeded with. 204 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Nothing is more important than are the industries of the country. 204 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I do not deny that. I am as anxious as the most rabid Protectionist in the community to see the industries of this country prosper. I do not propose to occupy much more of the time of honorable senators. The observations I have made have been extended by interjections. I hope that the Government wilt give such consideration to the important question of financing the country that we shall have no cause later to regret what has been done, and no one will be better pleased than I should their efforts be followed by a successful result. So far as the war is concerned, we realize that practically the whole of the people of the country are at one, and are agreed that we are at least as much concerned in this great struggle as are the people of the Old World. The danger is as imminent to Australia as it is to Great Britain or any of the other nations involved in the war. Affairs have developed in such a way that we now realize that the war must be a fight to a finish, and must result in the practical wiping out of the German nation as it at present exists, or the destruction of the British, French, and Belgian nations. Doubtless the struggle will last a long time, and must be prosecuted determinedly and energetically. Though it may be said that it was not expected by Germany that Great Britain would be involved in the war at the present time, that is not because there was no idea of involving Great Britain in war with that country.' Germany's policy in the matter was to settle her difficulties with France first, and afterwards to devote her attention to Great Britain. If honorable senators will read some of the documents which appear in the White Paper recently published, they will find that from the time of the introduction of the Naval Bill in 1900, there was a clearly-expressed determination by the German people that Germany should be the great naval power of the world. Germany believed herself to be a great military power, able to exercise whatever control she might think fit on the Continent of Europe, but she was determined also to become the great naval power of the world, and that involved the destruction of the naval power of the British Empire. 205 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator's party augmented that naval power. 205 KLZ 0 0 GOULD, Albert Senator Lt Colonel Sir ALBERT GOULD - I have often deprecated the assistance given by many of our people to foreign Powers, which might reasonably and properly have been retained for the benefit of our own nation. I hope that the present war will, in this regard, be such a lesson to the people of Australia and the Empire that similar assistance will not, in future, be given to foreign Powers. Whatever may be the outcome, we are engaged in a stupendous conflict, and if Great Britain were to go down and Australia become a portion of the prize of Germany, our freedom and all our free institutions would be placed under the iron heel of people who would regard themselves as conquerors of the world, and not as people coming here to assist us to build up a great nation in Australia. I trust that our legislation in this Parliament will be for the advantage of the community in the long run, whether we are able to carry into effect our own particular views or not. Honorable senators opposite may rely on those on this side to assist them on every occasion in doing what may be best for the defence of the country, and the assistance and defence of the Empire generally. 205 KSU Queensland 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN . - I take advantage of the opportunity to offer you, Mr. President, my personal congratulations upon your elevation to the high office you now hold. I congratulate also the mover and seconder of the Address-in-Reply upon the excellence of their speeches, and upon the fact that, although' new members of the Senate, they have given evidence of useful service in the future. Speaking as a comparatively new man myself, I am aware that, although one may have graduated in other spheres of usefulness in a State Parliament, there is always a feeling of newness upon entering for the first time a National Parliament of this character. Senator Gould, who has just treated us to a lucid speech on the Address-in-Reply, and the situation generally, has made special reference to many problems that await solution, and particularly to the financial problem con fronting us. Most honorable senators will agree that his remarks on the latter subject are answered by paragraph 5 of the Governor-General's Speech, in which it is stated that- Financial proposals to meet the exceptional conditions arising out of the war, and the consequent dislocation of trade and commerce, are under consideration by my Advisers, and will shortly be laid before you. Senator Gould knows, as we all do, that this is not the time or place for the Government to present their financial proposals. They will come before us in due course, and probably within a very few days we shall have the pleasure of listening to one of the most important and historic Budget speeches ever presented to any Parliament in this continent. Although it is true that the great war question almost overshadows everything else at the present time, as a National Parliament we are called upon to consider problems other than those arising out of the war. As a newly-elected Parliament, sent here by the electors on clearly defined issues, it is our bounden duty to give effect as soon as possible to the policy we were returned to support, and not even the war, with all its dreadful consequences, must deter us from doing our duty in that regard. I quite understand that a large proportion of the session must be taken up with matters directly arising out of the war. At the same time, there are quite* a number of matters coming within the purview of domestic legislation which must receive our close attention. I am pleased to see in the policy speech of the Government that legislation is promised on many phases of social, commercial and domestic policy. I have 'been particularly pleased to note the reference to the proposals to provide adequate consideration for the widows and orphans of Australian people. That must appeal to every member of the Senate, irrespective of his political creed. As one associated with the Parliament of a State for many years, and my experience may be regarded as common to most of those who have been members of State Parliaments, I say that the States in the past have not risen to the occasion in this respect. 206 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Some of the States in a quiet way make very considerable provision for widows and orphans. 206 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - I am aware of the fact that something is done; but, in my opinion, what has been done has been by no means adequate. I speak for the State of Queensland, leaving honorable senators representing other States to speak for what has been done in them. The inclusion in the policy speech of such a humanitarian proposal indicates the intention of the Government to look after the widows and orphans of the community. It is not new to find this branch of domestic legislation referred to in a policy speech. For some years past the Imperial Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Right Honorable Lloyd George, has submitted in Budget speeches delivered in the House of Commons some very remarkable proposals for domestic legislation. It is about time that this Parliament should realize its responsibilities in this connexion. One of the most important questions we can discuss on the Address-in-Reply is that of defence, and the very important land question raised by my honorable colleague and friend, Senator Stewart. In my opinion, these questions are interwoven one with the other. In this connexion, I cordially indorse the remarks of my colleague, Senator Stewart, and I know that he has given a good deal ' of attention to the matter, both in the Queensland Parliament and in this Chamber. It is idle for men, either inside or outside of the Commonwealth Parliament, to advocate an efficient system of defence unless they are prepared to evidence in some practical way that they mean business. In Queensland we have a State which is bigger than France, Germany, and Portugal combined, and yet it has a population only equal to that of a second-class city in the "United Kingdom. Everybody admits that the State which I have the' honour to represent is possessed of potential resources. It is capable of supporting millions of people, and, were it not for the cursed system of land monopoly, I do not hesitate to say that to-day, instead of boasting a population of 700,000, it would have a population of, at least, a million. Its present position is due to the fact that past Governments failed to realize that its resources would be better developed by a large than by a small population. 206 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Have not many Queensland Administrations encouraged immigration ? 206 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - They have. But, unfortunately, like most of the efforts made by the Tory Governments, the immigrants found upon their arrival that there was no land available for them to settle upon. I admit that the immigration question is one of the most important that we can discuss, and, with Senator Stewart, I firmly believe that it should demand at the hands of this Parliament greater attention than it has hitherto received. No doubt it will be given that consideration when our legislators realize that the land must be brought to the people, and not the people to the land. You, sir, know, that owing to Queensland being the nearest State to the great Eastern Powers, it is necessarily the most vulnerable point of the Commonwealth. It is essential, therefore, that it should be speedily developed and settled. How is that to be done when enormous areas of land are owned by private monopolists? The States have signally failed to cope with land settlement. Senator Bakhap said' yesterday that the best way to deal with the question of land settlement was by means of the repurchase system. He thinks that it would be a much sounder proposition to repurchase land than to promote closer settlement by means of the land tax. I may tell him that in Queensland alone £1,700,000 or £1,800,000 has been expended in re-purchasing estates, and, in connexion with many of those estates, the settlers will never see their title deeds. The purchase price was so exorbitant that during the recent election campaign quite a number of settlers on the Darling Downs appealed to the Minister of Lands for an extension of time to enable them to meet their obligations. 207 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Were they not willing to purchase the land at the price fixed? 207 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - They were at first, but they have since discovered that they were "let in." My chief object in rising was to connect' the question of defence with that of land settlement. We cannot effectively deal with the former unless we effectively deal with the latter. Of course, some honorable senators will say that land settlement is purely a State matter. As Senator Stewart knows, we fought this matter in the Queensland Parliament in the " nineties," but I am sorry to say that we made very little progress. The politicians of that time were hand in glove with the land speculators and monopolists, with the result that to-day Queensland possesses a population of only 700,000, whilst the disease of earth hunger there is rampant. I shall certainly give my warm support to any proposal which will have the effect of bursting up large estates by means of the land tax. 207 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - And if such a scheme is not introduced the honorable senator will want to know the reason why? 207 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - Yes. 207 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Is the honorable senator in accord with Senator Stewart, who declares that the tax has been ineffective? 207 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - I do not say that it has been ineffective; but I do say that it has not proved as efficacious as I had anticipated in speedily bursting up large estates. I thought that there would have been a very much better result. 207 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - The big estates have not been burst up. 207 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - That is so. However, we shall probably be afforded an opportunity of dealing with this question at a later stage of the session. In regard to the subject of defence, I wish briefly to call attention to that portion of the Governor-General's Speech which refers to the loss of the submarine AE1, and of its gallant crew, which we all deeply deplore. When I mentioned this matter the other day, I was reminded that it would be better if nothing were said on the floor of the Senate in regard to the building of another submarine to take the place of the one which has been lost. I should like to know what is going to be the rule concerning questions of this kind. We have been told what is to be the naval programme of Great Britain for the year. We have been assured that the British Navy is to be increased within the next twelve months by a large number of first class ships and destroyers. That was the information vouchsafed by the responsible Minister in the House of Commons, the actual figures being given. Yet when I ventured to ask whether our lost submarine was to be replaced, I was told that I ought not to raise the question. That is the one defect which I observe m the Governor-General's Speech. It contains no outline of the naval programme for the year. I am quite aware of the fact that the Minister of Defence may not be altogether responsible for taking up the attitude which he has taken up in this, connexion, but I do not see why it is necessary to keep secret all matters involving the development of our naval programme. If that policy is to be pursued, it will cause great uneasiness to the Australian people who, I think, should be taken, into the confidence of the Government. 207 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Likewise the German people. 207 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - Nothing of the sort. Seeing that we know what is to be the naval programme of Great Britain during the coming year, we ought surely to be told what is going on in Australia. There should also have been some reference in the Vice-Regal utterance to the establishment of Naval Bases around our coast. Probably this matter will be dealt with in the Budge?. Only the other day I read an article in the Argus dealing with the operations which are in progress at Cockburn Sound, and also with the Naval Base at Westernport. But there are other places in the Commonwealth which were recommended by Admiral Henderson as suitable sites for Naval Bases. I should like to know what is the position at. Thursday Island which Admiral Henderson recommended as a fleet secondary base and also as a destroyer base. Similarly, under his scheme Townsville was to be a destroyer sub-base, and Brisbane a destroyer base and also a submarine base. There were many other places in New South Wales, Tasmania, and Western Australia which were indicated as being suitable for Naval Bases. While I know it is necessary to preserve absolute secrecy in regard to many matters connected with naval and military strategy, it would, I think, impart a tremendous element' of confidence to our people if they were told exactly what, is to be the naval programme of the immediate future. It was a very good thing for the Commonwealth that the Labour Government, who were in office from 1910 to 1913, realized their national responsibilities. What would have happened so far as Australia and certain Possessions in the Pacific are concerned had it not been for the establishment of our Australian naval unit I do not know. Although many of our opponents would not give our party credit for the work they did in that connexion, the records prove conclusively that had it not been for the action of the Labour Government during the years they were in power the most terrible things might have happened at some parts of our coast-line. Certainly we should not be in the happy position to-day of being practically immune from bombardment by German raiders. There is one matter which I should be glad if the Minister who i§ watching the debate at present, will bring specially under the notice of the Minister of Defence. I have been in close contact of late with quite a number of captains and officers on various coasting ships. These men are not attached to either the military or the naval arm, but many of them entertain the idea that as sailors they might be of great use to the Commonwealth Naval Department if they were permitted to go through a brief course of drill every year uT gunnery. They might, perhaps, with an alteration of the Naval Defence Act, become officers of the Royal Naval Reserve. There are hundreds of these men all round Australia skilled in navigation and many having been drilled. They would be invaluable to the nation in time of stress, and especially in time of war, if associated with our defence scheme, but they are made no use of at present. The only responsibility they now 'have is to look after freight and passengers. These men, in case of trouble, would simply be rushed by the Navy Department. I believe in taking time by the forelock, and if it were possible for the Department to get. in touch with' them, and utilize their services when we are at war, it would be a great thing. I have been through the mill myself, and, speaking as an old sailor, and one who was associated with the early stages of the Queensland Naval Brigade, I know it would be a good thing for Australia if every opportunity were given to our mercantile marine officers to join the Royal Australian Reserve. With regard to the question of Protection, I was glad to hear the views given expression to by at least two honorable senators sitting on the Opposition front bench. In this connexion it is most interesting to note the wonderful change that has come o'er the scene in the case of the Sydney Morning Herald, one of the oldest newspapers in Australia. Both that and the Sydney Daily Telegraph have in years gone by been opposed to the very name of Protection, but they now realize, especially in view of the events of the war, that this must be made a self-contained nation, and that the sooner our raw material is utilized here, our manufactures tremendously increased, and work found in our factories for thousands of our young people, the better it will be for us all. I realize, as a practical man, that for many years ' there will be quite a number of things that we shall have to import. It will be long, for instance, before we can organize on proper lines an industry for the production of cotton goods. I should be very sorry to see a cotton industry organized in tropical Queensland except under white labour conditions. There are people who would institute a cotton industry to-morrow if they were allowed to work it by cheap coloured labour, but the great bulk of the Australian people are against that policy, and I trust they always will be. If we are to have effective Protection it will mean the protection, not only of our manufacturers, but of our workers. We remember the wars that used to rage around the old fiscal flags in years gone by. Queensland bad a hybrid Tariff, New South "Wales a Free Trade one, Victoria a 25 per cent. Tariff, South Australia a half-and-half business, and Western Australia was almost Free Trade in pre-Federation days; but whether they were Free Trade or Protectionist States, low wages and sweating conditions existed. We want to avoid that sort of thing under an effective Protective Tariff, and this can be done by legislation. Some people say it will be impossible to do it; but we have done some wonderful things in Australia by legislation. I remember that when, in the nineties, the Labour members in the Queensland Parliament advocated old-age pensions, the Tory Ministers used to ask, " Where are you going to get the money from ? " and cries of "Dangerous Socialism" were hurled across the chamber. 209 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - What was the matter with those old Tories that they provided the machinery to grant old-age pensions in the Federal Constitution? 209 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - They realized that a Constitution without some provision of the kind incorporated in it would simply rouse the wrathful indignation of the people. I give men like Sir Samuel Griffith, Mr. Kingston, Mr. B.R. Wise, Sir William Lyne, and Mr. J. H. Howe credit for having the sense to see ahead, and for understanding the growing democratic sentiments of the people. If it had not been for men of that class at the Convention, I believe that we should not have had such liberal provisions in the Constitution. They realized that the people would not submit to a Tory Constitution; and, although I do not admit that the instrument is perfect, it represents a great step forward; and, in that respect, I am glad indeed to think that the result of the recent election has justified the attitude taken up by the Senate in the last Parliament. It was said by the Fusion party that this was to be a Senate fight. We have had a double dissolution and a Senate fight. I am not going to " throw off " at the other side, because I recognise that they represent, just as we do, a very large number of people; but the majority have decided that the Senate was perfectly justified in its attitude. They decided that it was absolutely justified in urging that' the referenda proposals should be again put before the people for adoption or rejection, and they also showed that, in their opinion, the Senate must be a democratic, and not a Tory, body. Consequently, they did us the honour to return our party in even greater strength, and we are here to-day with a total of thirty-one members opposed to a party of five. This, I suppose, constitutes a record for the world for an election by the mass vote of the people. As one of my colleagues has put it, this is a mandate to the Labour party to go ahead. We have a programme and a policy, and it is our duty not to mark time, but to go right forward. I congratulate the Government on wasting no time in calling Parliament together, because, as Mr. Fisher pointed out some time ago, we have a lot of leeway to make up, seeing that during the fourteen or fifteen years of the existence of the Commonwealth the Labour party has been in power for only three or four years, and there is a lot of work to do. We have to do a lot of work that the State Parliaments will not do, and we are, consequently, saddled with a greater responsibility than would otherwise be the case if the State Parliaments rose to the occasion. 209 K7D 0 0 STEWART, James Senator Stewart - Some cannot, owing to their Legislative Councils. 209 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - That is so; and this reminds me that there are in this Parliament to-day men, notably Sir William Irvine, who would be only too glad to see the Senate a nominee body like the Legislative Councils of Queensland, New South Wales, and some other States. Thank God it is not a nominee, but an elective, House, and I trust it will always remain so. In order to have the figures incorporated in Hansard, I wish to remind honorable senators that, since the establishment of Federation, the Labour party has made gradual progress in the Senate. In 1901 it had only eight members in this Chamber out of thirty-six; in 1903, it had fourteen; in 1906, fifteen; in 1910, twenty-three; in 1913, twenty-nine; and in 1914, thirty-one. That gradual progress represents the mandate of the people, and, while we should be very sorry to miss Senator Bakhap and his friends, I should not be at all surprised if, at the next appeal to the country, we practically monopolized the whole Senate. Senator SENIOR (South Australia) £4.37]. - I join in congratulating you, Mr. President, on occupying your present position. I am pleased to see you there. Just as I was pleased to recognise your ability and impartiality last session, so I have every confidence that this session the same qualities will guide your actions. I join, also, in congratulating the mover and the seconder of the Address-in-Reply, and welcome them to the Senate. " I believe they will be an acquisition in the debates on the important matters that have been sketched out for us. I hope they will have a long period of usefulness here, and that our associations will be as pleasant as their speeches predicate. After witnessing the strenuous opposition put up by Senator Gould to our party last session, I was astonished to hear him say to-day that he was very largely in accord with the -present Government. It seemed to me, however, that he thought the attitude of the Government should be a restful and quiet one, on the ground that, because the drums were beating and the cannons roaring in the Old Land, we in Australia ought to be dumb. His conception of the attitude of the Government seemed to be that it should be entirely pacific. According to him, also, we in this Chamber ought not to disturb Ministers in their desire to find the best way out of the present difficulty, or to disturb the people themselves. In that sense, I think, the honorable senator has credited Parliament with the possession of too great powers. I do not think that we will do either one or the other even if we go on with the programme. Touching on the war, it is deeply to be regretted that we are involved in a conflict which is not likely to terminate for some months, and which, perhaps, may extend for years. However, we have this consciousness, that it is not of our seeking. We have the consciousness that England has been embroiled in the war in a way that is honorable to the nation, and that when the history of it comes to be written the story of her part will redound to her credit. I feel that as Englishmen we have been, perhaps, slow in the matter of defence, but not too slow. Knowing what war is, we have not been anxious to hurry into the battle, but being there we shall be just as slow to leave. I am confident that, however dark the prospect may seem at times, the British nation will come out of the conflict uppermost. But it is not only for that reason that I feel that our position in Australia is, perhaps, far more serious than on the surface it may seem to be. Wrapped up in this conflict is our very existence, because whatever we may think of the position between the two principal nations in conflict, there is not the remotest doubt in my mind that British rule exceeds all other rule. There may be at times many things with which we as Britishers have occasion to find fault. But when we make an analysis we always feel that there is no other rule which we would like to be under. I believe that that feeling is indorsed by every foreigner who comes to live under the British Flag. I know that many of our German friends would not forsake Australia even to go back to the old Fatherland. We can scarcely blame these men if their sentiment and their sympathy are with the land of their birth. Ours is just the same. We cannot forget that the early training of these men was in Germany, and that their associations, friendships, and relationships are there. We must not forget that this sentiment is almost as strong, if not as strong, as any other sentiment which governs men in life. Nor must we forget that any hasty words dropping from the lips of these residents are, after all, only the echo of the old time and the old life which they have left behind. I think that, as a general rule, the German residents in Australia are true to the' British Throne, and I speak from experience of these men. There may be, of course, odd individuals who are not attached to the Throne, but these exceptions, I think, prove the general rule. Perhaps it is too early to ask a question of the Ministers, but I should have liked to hear a declaration as to what attitude they intend to take up with regard to the establishment of Naval Bases, especially in South Australia. There we are severely struck with a drought, and we have to-day a larger number of unemployed than has been seen in the State for the last four decades. The position is a very serious one, because we have not only the calamity of the shadow of war over us, but we also have the calamity of the drought, which is affecting us far more seriously at present than is the war itself. Senator Gould in his speech dealt with the question of the finances. Possibly a financial man like the honorable senator may grasp the situation more clearly than I do, but it does seem strange to me that within twelve months from the close of i period of unequalled prosperity we should be face to face with a difficulty, not of food, but of finance. We are not yet faced in Australia, I am pleased to say, with the difficulty of how our people shall be fed, nor do I think that that difficulty will confront us, but we are faced with a position in which the question is asked, " What are we to do in the matter of finance?" As I listened to the observations of Senator Gould, I thought it was rather peculiar that, although during the last eight or ten years Australia experienced most bountiful harvests,, trade was more prosperous than it was in any preceding period, and the population increased, yet in the last twelve months we have been brought face to face with a difficulty, and the question is: How is this Parliament to meet the terrible calamity which is upon us? These things set one thinking, and as one begins to wonder what stops may be best to recommend, one looks, naturally to those who have the data at hand to explain, if possible, their ideas on the situation. I have here a few figures dealing with the financial question, and which are drawn from the balance-sheets of the Associated Banks in Australia. These figures may throw a sidelight on the question of how we ought to deal with the finances of the Commonwealth, and of where we should look for help. To our financial institutions, I think, Ave may look to get an idea as to what the real stability of Australia is. Perhaps, without looking carefully into this matter, it may be felt that "the circumstances which surround us at the pre-' sent time are such as to cause us to be downhearted, but, as we scan the figures hidden in the balance-sheets of the banks, I think that we will come to an entirely different conclusion. In Australasia there are twenty-two banking institutions, with paid-up capital amounting to £20,245,530, and reserves amounting to £13,901,837, making a grand total of £34,147,367. What else do we find from the balance-sheets? The dividends for the last half-year amounted to £1,143,119, averaging 9 per cent, for the twenty-two banks. These figures, I think, clearly indicate that with a mere handful of people in Australia we should not be up against such a great difficulty as we seem to be. The figures undoubtedly are reliable, and there ought to be sufficient funded capital in the banks to guarantee us against anything like panic legislation, or a feeling of despondency. The total deposits in the twenty-two institutions amount to £202,591,3S0. The Senate will agree with me, I think, that the figures are illuminative as regards the present position. Senator Gould, if he was acquainted with the figures I have quoted, had no cause to deliver such a direful and gloomy speech as he did this afternoon. 211 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - And all that financial stability has beau achieved under the poor old Tory regime. 211 K5R SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Slot all of it. The honorable senator forgets that during a portion of that period, and the more prosperous portion, a Labour Government was in power in the Commonwealth. He also forgets that prior to that event in different States the Labour party was in power. Surely he will admit that we did more during the time we were in power than was done during the whole regime. of Tory Governments. 211 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Two State Labour Governments had brought about record deficits in the history of Australia. 211 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - That is not unlikely. It is quite possible for a man to have an overdraft at his bank and yet to be perfectly sound financially. It is quite possible for even two or more Labour Governments to have what appears from their Budget to be a deficit, and at the same time to be in a sound and prosperous position. In fact, a deficit may be brought about by the negligence and diffidence of Tory Governments to do their duty. 211 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - The deficits were produced in the prosperous years to which you have alluded. 211 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - The deficit in Western Australia was brought about by the Tory Legislative Council throwing out our taxation measures. 211 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Exactly. I could point to a State Government bringing about a similar position in South Australia. I could point to Tory Governments, as well as to a Tory Legislative Council, baulking legislation which would have advanced the best interests of the State. We know full well that any deficit in New South Wales has been brought about purely because Tory Governments would not develop the State as development became necessary, and do it quickly. 212 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - The honorable senator is referring to what was alluded to in the Age recently as " financial chaos." 212 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - The allusions in the Age to many matters are not always correct. That newspaper might refer to Senator Bakhap as a man who is able to look only through a keyhole, and perhaps it would be nearer the truth than it was in the allusion to which he has referred. The honorable senator is adroit in constructing side tracks which he endeavours to induce a speaker to follow. We have no need for anything like panic or despondency. So far from the resources of Australia being exhausted, they have yet scarcely been touched. One matter arising out of the war has been brought more forcibly under our notice than has ever been the case in the past. At a time when we are about to revise a Tariff it is most opportune that we should remember that many of the articles which we have required in the past have borne upon them the stamp " Made in Germany." We shall continue to need those articles as time goes on, but we shall not require to obtain them from the same source. It is incumbent upon Australia to manufacture those articles for herself in the future. Australians must rise to the occasion, face the difficulty, and solve this problem as statesmen should solve it. No part of the globe is better able to supply the needs of the people than is Australia. No country in the world could be more self-contained. There is no other country of which it is quite so disgraceful to say that she sends her raw products to the other side of the globe to be manufactured into goods which are afterwards bought by her own people. We in Australia must make up our minds to meet Australian needs, and where the products of our land exceed our needs we must be prepared to send, not the raw material, but the manufactured article, to the people of other lands. We are complaining largely of our unemployed whilst we are exporting our wheat to be ground in other lands. We should grind our wheat here, and export our flour. 212 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Would people pay the price for our flour. 212 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Senator Bakhap will, I am sure, contend that the question of price is always determined by the law of supply and demand, and if there is a demand for our flour, people will be found to purchase it. I have not the slightest doubt that there will be a very considerable demand for it. 212 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - The honorable senator should not forget that much of our wheat is used for mixing purposes in other countries. 212 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - I grant that. I remember the time when wheat grown at Mount Gambier was ground at Mount Gambier by the old-fashioned stone grinders, but to-day some of the millers tell us that they cannot grind the wheat grown at Mount Gambier, since the introduction of new milling machinery requires the production of a harder wheat. We 'are importing superphosphates to Australia very largely to-day, whilst we are exporting bran, pollard, and wheat, and, with those exports, £100,000 worth of superphosphates every year. We are faced to-day with a drought, and I am afraid that a number of pastoralists will have to slaughter their stock, while we are at the same time exporting foodstuffs, when by grinding our wheat we might keep some of our own people employed, and supply many of the needs of the community. These questions call for serious reflection, but we must, first of all, banish every feeling of despondency because of the war. Sadness must ever follow war, but there should not be amongst us any feeling of despondency. We should, on the contrary, feel that it is our duty to rise to the occasion and meet our own needs by utilizing the labour we have here. I heard it stated recently in connexion with concentrates now lying at Port Pirie, and a valuable product of the Broken Hill Silver Mines, that they cannot be utilized here. It is said that in order to utilize them here it would be necessary to spend something like £1,500,000on machinery. It is about time that we recognised that we have minerals in Australia and should, as a people, be prepared to treat them be re, so that wo may export to other lands, not the raw material, but the finished article. 213 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - The honorable senator should not forget that in connexion with the reduction of ores, very special skill is necessary, and this skill has been developed for generations by the people of Belgium and of Germany. 213 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - The honorable senator's interjection is but a key opening up another point. I am pleased to say that many years ago, in Australia, we decided upon compulsory education. The next step must be to extend that education to the secondary and technical branches to enable Australians to- meet the needs and prosecute the true development of Australia. We must go still further, and take steps necessary to develop Australians as well as the products of Australia. We should recognise that money spent in that way will prove about the most profitable investment we could make. In the past, when there has been any position of eminence requiring special skill to be filled, the practice has, unfortunately, been to disparage the produce of our own land, when Ave should have been preparing Australians in such a way as to fit them to fill the highest positions in the country. 213 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - The people who have been relying solely upon- German imports are now posing as Australian patriots, but they are too late. 213 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Germany has taught us many lesson's, and possibly in time to come will teach us many more. She is perhaps teaching us an important lesson in the present war. It may be that she is teaching us that we should cease to be dependent upon her, and should be self-dependent. We should take advantage of the lessons she has taught, particularly in the way she has trained her people. It may surprise some honorable senators to learn that more .than 1,000,000 Germans are employed directly in the forests of Germany, and more than 3,000,000 find employment in' connexion with the output of those forests. If in Australia we attempted to preserve our forests or to go in for a policy of re-afforestation, our friends of the Opposition would immediately raise their eyes and cry " Socialism." They overlook the fact that Germany to-day draws half her revenue from socialistic enterprises in connexion with mines, coal fields, and forests. 213 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Does the honorable senator accuse members of the Opposition of having at any time disputed the value of a policy of afforestation? 213 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - I do not accuse the honorable senator of that, but I do say that in South Australia every attempt of the kind has been burked by the Tory section in the State Parliament. Possibly in the little State of Tasmania, which is so small as almost to escape one's notice on looking at the map of Australia, it is recognised that the depletion of the forest is greatly to the disadvantage of the interests of the State. 213 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - I recognise that the waste products of our saw-mills are not. utilized as they arc in Germany. 213 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Here again is a reference to what is done in Germany, and it is the socialistic management 'of her forests and other natural resources that has given Germany the strength she has to-day. I hope that in the time to come our friends of the Opposition will not raise their usual cry when we take such socialistic measures as appear to us to be necessary to enable Australians to utilize the raw products of the country for the benefit of- the people of Australia. 213 KRX Tasmania 0 0 LONG, James Senator LONG .- I join with almost every other honorable senator who has spoken on the Address-in-Reply in tendering my personal congratulations to you, sir, on the fact that you have been again elected to the very high office which you filled with such distinction in the previous Parliament. May I also tender my congratulations to the members of the Ministry representing the Government in this Chamber. I feel that I shall be doing no injustice to other members of the Senate if I say that, in my humble opinion, the three best senators who could possibly have been chosen have been selected by the Labour party for those positions. I am confident that Australia as a whole welcomes again the control of the Defence Department by Senator Pearce, the Leader of the Labour party in this Chamber. It is no exaggeration to say that none of the honorable senator's predecessors in the office have ever had the grasp of that tremendously important Department that Senator Pearce exhibited during the three years it was under his control. I do not hesitate to say that the great success which the Labour party achieved at the recent elections was in a large measure due to the very mean and paltry attempts of the other side, led by the ex-Minister of Defence, to deprive the Labour party, and more particularly Senator Pearce, of the credit rightly due to them and to him for bringing the defence of. Australia up to its present state of perfection. It was because .of these unfair tactics that the Opposition number has been so reduced that they are now no longer entitled to be dignified by that term and might with more justice be referred to as " the spectators on the other side of the chamber." It is characteristic of members of the so-called Liberal party _ that, whilst they are extravagant in their statements on the public platform, where they know that those statements cannot be" answered, they sneak out of the chamber when members of the Labour party are afforded an opportunity of replying to them. They ignore their obligation either to justify their statements or to do the manly thing by withdrawing them, by making it convenient to be in some other part of the parliamentary buildings while the debate is proceeding. During the recent election campaign the ex-Minister of Defence, Senator Millen, affirmed that the Labour party could not take to itself credit for our defence system, naval or military, because prominent members of that party had opposed the expenditure which Parliament was asked to sanction last year. In support of his statement that the Labour party did not desire anything in the nature of increased expenditure on defence, he quoted paragraphs from . the speeches of members of that party. If Senator Millen were present, I would charge him with having deliberately faked a statement of mine for his own. particular purpose. I further tell him that if he can find in Hansard the paragraph which he attributed to me, and which was published in the Argus and all other Tory papers of 28th August, I will resign my seat in this Chamber. The honorable senator exceeded the ordinary and legitimate bounds of criticism, and for party purposes descended to methods which certainly did him no credit. It was not surprising, therefore, to find that lesser lights of the Opposition echoed his cry in other parts of Australia, and particularly in the State from which I come. On 28th August, according to an Argus report,. Senator Millen credits me with the statement ent - I wish to say that, although I voted willingly for this expenditure last year, 1 am questioning- it this year, because I believe that if we made a mistake yesterday we ought to be preparer! to admit it to-day. Senator Millen deliberately omitted the first portion of my utterance in that connexion, and also the central part of it,, and then presented the remainder to the. people of Australia as something which I said in opposition to the present defence expenditure. 214 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - If he took away tha body and the head of it, he left only the sting. 214 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator LONG - But in such circumstances the statement created quite a wrong impression in the minds of the people, lt is passing strange that the statement attributed to me was published simultaneously in all the Tory newspapers throughout the Commonwealth. Let me give honorable senators the words which I actually used on the 'occasion in question. Senator Stewart had been speaking on the question of defence, and dealing with the effectiveness of the military arm as compared with the naval arm. He affirmed that it was to the military arm that he looked for the safety of Australia, in the future. I followed him, and said that, however unpopular it might be, I wished to associate myself with the sentiments which he had uttered, because I believed that "in the future the security of Australia would have to depend almost entirely upon her military defence. I then proceeded to point out that, in my opinion, the expenditure we were incurring in connexion with the development of our Navy was unwise, seeing that in fifteen or twenty years' time we- could not hope, at our present annual rate of expenditure, to possess, a Navy equal to that of even one of the smaller Powers of the Old World. I said, therefore, that we ought to spare no expense in the development of our Citizen Forces, because it was to that arm of defence that I looked for the protection of Australia. My exact words were - Without cavilling in. any sense at the naval expenditure to which Australia has been con*mitted. I wish to say that, although I voted quite willingly for this expenditure last year, I am questioning it this year, not because I have ceased to bc patriotic as regards defence, but because I believe that; if wo made a mistake yesterday, we ought to be prepared to admit it to-duy. That is to say that if we had made a mistake yesterday in connexion with naval expenditure by neglecting to pay due attention to our Citizen Forces, we ought to be prepared to admit it to-day. I repeat that, if Senator Millen can produce from Mansard the paragraph which he attributed to me, and which was published broadcast in the Tory newspaper? throughout Australia, I shall resign my seat in this Senate. I throw out that challenge in order to emphasize the mean, low-down tactics resorted to by such a prominent member of the Opposition in an endeavour to boost up the claim of his party to the credit attaching to the defence scheme of Australia to-day. Again, I want to say that the cause of righteousness will always prevail, no matter what factors may be arrayed against it. The Labour party has succeeded because it has always been frank, and because it has always taken the people of Australia into its confidence. Neither its leaders nor its members ever present a programme for the purpose of tickling the ears of the electors. As honest, straightforward representatives, they advocate what they regard as the best solution of the many problems which are so closely associated with our social and industrial lives. Our opponents marvel that their numbers in this Parliament are so small. Each blames the other, and all of them are walloping their particular joss, because the Labour party has achieved the greatest victory in its history. It has achieved that victory because the electors have at last recognised that there is only one political party in Australia which has a true conception of the rights and duties of a nation. During the recent election campaign, the newspapers in Tasmania - and probably in most of the other States - contained criticisms of the meanest and most contemptible kind under the heading of " Points to the Elec tors." The Launceston Examiner went so far as to say that the Labour party in the Senate threw out the Agricultural Bureau Bill, which the Cook Government were anxious to put through, because it meant so much to the farming interests of Australia. 215 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - The ex-Prime Minister made the same statement. 215 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator LONG - Exactly. They made that statement knowing very well that the Bill was not introduced into the Senate last session. As a matter of fact it was introduced into this Chamber in 1913, only on the very day upon which Parliament went into recess. But I venture to say that honorable senators will not find anything in Australia which, for vulgarity, excels a paragraph which was published in the Launceston Examiner of 28th August, and which reads - Australia's pressing need is to clear the dogs out of its parliamentary manger. This will be accomplished. Tasmania will do its share of the work if only on September 5 its Liberals will vote solidly and straight for the Liberal six. 215 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator Guy - And the same newspaper stated that the paragraph was written after consultation. 215 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator LONG - As I am pertinently reminded by Senator Guy, the paragraph was not one which crept into that newspaper quite unknown to its editor or to its proprietors, because immediately under the paragraph appeared the announcement that it was written " after consultation to express the views of the Launceston Examiner." They were not successful in clearing what they termed the " dogs " out of the parliamentary manger, and I thank the saints that we were successful in clearing- a few mongrels out of it. I would much prefer to be a dog than to be an individual who would hire himself out to write a criticism of that character of honest and straightforward public representatives. Several honorable senators to-day have referred to the Commonwealth Bank, and the part it is likely to play in the future development of Australian finance. Our opponents ought to be fair-minded enough to admit that the existence of the bank means our financial salvation. If it had not been established Australia would have been faced with a panic equal to that of the early nineties. No thanks are due to Mr. Joseph Cook, when he was Prime Minister, for the fact that there was not a panic in spite of the existence of the bank. If there was one man whose duty it was at that juncture to inspire the public with confidence regarding Australian finance, surely it was he; yet the manifesto which he issued on 31st August contained the most damaging statement that any public man could make against the financial stability of Australia. That man, who ought to have taken every step in his power to allay anything in the nature of a panic, and to assure the people that, whatever trouble might befall the private banks, the Commonwealth Bank was big enough and' sound enough to come to their rescue. So far from discharging that duty, in order to have a " dig " at his opponents and to follow his old policy of denying to our party the credit that rightly belonged to them, he made a big hit at the financial stability of Australia, in trying to decry the Commonwealth Bank, by saying that " If a panic broke loose, and financial stress came suddenly upon us, we would look in vain for substantial help from the Commonwealth Bank." The bank was established in opposition to the protests of the representatives of financial institutions in the Federal Parliament, and in spite of the sneers and jeers of the financial magnates outside, who predicted its early failure. They said it could not possibly be a success, because there were so many institutions already engaged in the business of finance in this country; but when financial stress came they had to admit, like our friends on the Opposition benches, that the fortress and buttress of our finance is the Commonwealth Bank, established by the Labour Government. Mr. David Barclay, who occupies a very prominent position in the financial world of Tasmania, and who is looked upon, I believe rightly, as the leading financial authority in that State, on being interviewed after the war had broken out, and the first financial strain was beginning to be felt, was asked what the financial position would be if the war continued for five or six months. He then gave the assurance that there was not the slightest occasion for apprehension, that the banks were perfectly sound, and that everything would bc quite all right for many months to come. "But," he said, "even if the worst comes to the worst, we shall be able to fall back upon the Commonwealth Bank." There is a tribute from a man very high in the financial world and well qualified to utter it. I hope and believe that the Government will devote themselves earnestly, honestly, and energetically to carry out the programme which they presented to the people for their acceptance on the 5th September,' and subsequently embodied in the Speech delivered by the Governor-General to Parliament. I indorse Senator Senior's view that we have nothing to fear so far as the stability of Australia is concerned, and I agree with him that we have not yet touched th'e outskirts of this country's resources. The position is, no doubt, serious, and will possibly become much more so before the awful crisis in Europe has been brought to a successful conclusion, and, from our point of view, there is only one conclusion that can be successful. Whatever the upshot may be, we have our part to play, and I am sure that Australia is not going to shirk its responsibilities. It certainly will not be permitted to do so by the present Administration. In spite of the mean attempts made during the last campaign to fasten disloyalty on to the Labour party, we have the opportunity during the next three years of demonstrating to our opponents and other paris of the Empire that Australia will do its utmost to assist the Old Country in this its greatest time of need. The Government will also show the people that they realize how serious the position is to the industrial classes. Having discharged their responsibilities to the Old Land. I am sure they will not neglect their responsibilities to their own people, but will apply themselves to the task of keeping the wheels of industry going, and finding employment for the thousands who have been thrown out of work by the industrial dislocation that has taken place. I again tender to you, sir, my hearty and cordial congratulations on your being called upon to preside over the deliberations of this- Chamber for the next three years. Question resolved in the affirmative. Motion (by Senator Pearce) agreed to~- That the Address-in-Reply be presented to His Excellency the Governor-General by the President and such senators as may desire to- accompany him. 217 adjournment 217 217 K0F Western Australia ALP Minister of Defence 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE . - In moving That the Senate do now adjourn, I wish to intimate that the Vice-President of the Executive Council has given notice of motion for leave to introduce a Bill relating to bankruptcy, which motion will come on to-morrow. I propose, therefore, to ask the Senate to meet to-morrow, so that we may take the first reading. I do not think this will entail much hardship, as honorable senators have not been able to get away to the other States. It will get us over the formal stage, and on Wednesday the honorable senator will be able to move the second reading. I understand that a money Bill to make the grant to Belgium will also come up from the other House on Wednesday. Question resolved in the affirmative. 217 17:38:00 Senate adjourned at 5.38 p.m.