1916-12-19 6 1 0 SENATE 10149 0 1916-12-19 The President took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers. ' 10149 Questions 10149 10149 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN - In view of the fact that the Prime Minister's manifesto to the Anzacs has been laid on the table of the Senate, have the Government any objection to the newspapers printing it if they so desire? I understand that the newspapers have been refused the right ' to publish the manifesto. 10149 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH - I ask the honorable senator to give notice of a question for tomorrow. 10149 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - There will not be much time. 10149 KRZ 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH - Well, for a later hour of the day. 10149 10149 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN - Is the Leader of the Government here yet in a position to answer the question I forecasted last Thursday evening as to whether it was. the intention of the Government to re-enact the regulation in connexion with the censorship which we disallowed a couple of weeks ago ? 10149 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH - The honorable senator asked a question under two headings. What he has referred to now relates to one portion of his question. His first question was - Is it the intention of the Government, as stated in the Herald, on the 8th inst., to re-enact Statutory Rule No. 204, which was recently disallowed by the Senate? The answer to that question is " The matter is being considered." 10150 10150 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I want to ask the Minister representing the Minister for Defence a question in reference to the statement in to-day's newspaper, that it is the intention . of the military authorities to create or appoint a permanent guard. Is it intended to create a new permanent military unit outside the Kitchener scheme, or is it to be permanent only in the sense of being for the time of the war ? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH - Will the honorable senator give notice of the question? 10150 10150 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN eein g that we are on the eve of a long adjournment, will the Leader of the Senate endeavour, before we do adjourn, to get answers to the questions which have been submitted to him? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Yes ; I shall endeavour, as I have been endeavouring in the past, to get answers to the questions submitted, but I remind the honorable senator that they come now with such machine-gun rapidity that i t is difficult, consistent with the working of the Departments, to get the information desired. 10150 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The honorable senator's idea of rapidity of motion seems to have altered lately. 10150 10150 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY Has the Minister for Works consulted his colleagues in connexion with the question I addressed Jo him last night on the motion for adjournment, and if so, has he a reply to give? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Yes . Last night I had an opportunity of consulting with some of my colleagues. The position is that an opinion on the Gilchrist case has been obtained from the Attorney-General's Department, but the Cabinet has not yet had time to consider the opinion, and i t will do so to-morrow. 10150 10150 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN I s the Minister representing the Minister for Defence yet in a position to answer the question I asked him on Thursday last in connexion with offenders against the Military Service Proclamation? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The answer to the question is' ' There are now no such persons in gaol." 10150 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - The father of. one man was complaining in the precincts of the Senate last night that his son had just been arrested under the proclamation. 10174 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice— Is he able to state whether any private firms have absolutely refused to reinstate their employees who answered the Compulsory Service proclamation ? If certain firms have so acted, is it the Government's intention to proceed against them on account of such action? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The answers are- Representations have- been made to this effect by a number of men who were called up under the Proclamation. The . Attorney-General's Department has expressed tha opinion that section 134 of the Defence Act does not apply in thc case of Part IV. of the Aot, but the matter is receiving reconsideration. If this is found to be so the matter will he specially dealt with hy Regulation under the War Precautions Act. 10150 10150 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator WATSON asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice— Are there any regulations in respect to civilian . prisoners of war preventing them, when exchanged, from rendering service in the war? Is the Army Medical Corps a non-combatant corps? If so, why are released civilian prisoners of war prevented from rendering service abroad in non-combatant corps? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The answers are- There are no rules binding on all belligerent--, and it is a matter of arrangement as to whether released prisoners may render service in the war.* Agreements have been made between some of the belligerents by which certain classes of released prisoners are prevented from serving. In . some cases individual prisoners, before release, have .given parole not to take further part in the war, but enemy Governments have not in all cases permitted their subjects to observe such paroles. Yes It is considered that a decision on such a question is one for. the Imperial authorities. 10151 10173 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE .asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice— Have the Government any information with regard to the treatment of interned German seamen in Great Britain and her possessions ? Have the Government any similar information regarding the treatment of British seamen interned in enemy countries? 10150 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The answer is- 1 and 2. No, other than such information as may he contained ih British Parliamentary Papers that have been • presented to the Senate. 10151 miscellaneous Order of the day for the resumption of the debate, adjourned from 14th December (vide page 9879), on motion by Senator Grant, discharged. 10151 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and Bill read a first time. 10151 10151 11.10 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH . - In moving - That this Bill be now read a second time, I should perhaps begin with an explanation as to its necessity. It marks a new departure in legislation in this Parliament. So far as the working out of democratic rule in this country is concerned, . we feel that we are for the first time abreast of a condition of things which requires action. If we do not take action the responsibility will rest upon those who are charged with controlling the affairs of this country. 10151 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey Do you mean direct action? 10151 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH I mean direct action in a legislative sense, if necessary". In this country we have what is known as democratic rule, but unfortunately, at present, that rule which was fought for so long by preceding generations is in danger of being undermined. Whether we believe this authority or that authority; whether we believe with Byron when he said that " democracy is but an aristocracy of blackguards," or with Mazzini when he said that i t was " the progress of all through all under the leadership of the wisest and the best," we are satisfied that between these two opposite poles of thought we have' in Australia a democratic rule which makes i t incumbent upon every unit to see that existing conditions are maintained in their integrity. In Australia, happily, we have freedom developed to the utmost. In no other country in the world has the tree of liberty flourished and blossomed to so fine an extent as i t has here. It has grown to its present splendour of outline and state of luxuriance through not a single blow being struck for i t on this continent nor a drop of blood being shed to obtain i t . I have often felt that, like all gifts that are obtained without sacrifice, we are likely to under-estimate its value.- So we have travelled along an easy gradient down the years living under this democratic rule, perfected in. certain spots and expanded in others, until at length we in this Federal Parliament typify in ourselves and .indicate to the world that we are in reality and in essence a people governed by a majority. Having a situation like that, i t is rather a sad commentary that disorders of a kind have sprung into our industrial and commercial life which call for oppressive measures. I was hopeful that those disorders, industrial, commercial, and social, which have latterly been in evidence might be righted by some peaceful process, and before I am finished I hope to explain that i t is possible, without the interference of law, for the community, by the exercise of common sense and good judgment, to prevent the necessity for instituting a law to remedy a fancied grievance. When we consider what has been happening during the last few years i t is plain that there has arisen amongst us a small band of active and enthusiastic men, bent, so far as in them lies, upon the overturning of the industrial and social fabric of the country and the very freedom which they are themselves enjoying to-day. „ I have said that the influence of good sense amongst the citizens of a community is able, without the invocation of law, to stamp out manifest evils. The members of the organization to which I have been referring visited the western State and did their best to pollute the social and industrial .atmosphere there. They endeavoured to sow their poisonous seeds* in that community, but, fortunately for Aus-tralia, the advanced and enlightened thought of the people of Western' Australia never permitted those poisonous seeds to take root or germinate. Two of the men who are now serving sentences in a northern State tried their best to spread the doctrines of the organization in one of the most advanced democratic communities of Australia. What happened ? The -people of. the western State turned a deaf ear to the false pleadings of these men, and ..they left by moonlight. Where did they (go to? They came east to the big cities, those places which Thomas Jefferson has well said are the festering sores of civilization to-day. They came east to the big cities, where apparently they have been able to discover willing ears to listen to their pernicious doctrines. The result of rthe visit of these people to Western Australia, is an illustration of the way in \whach a community can rise to the occasion and make i t unnecessary for the legislative machinery to be brought into play for the suppression- of a manifest evil. The body to which I have referred is popularly known as the Industrial Workers of the World. It is an expansive title, and should, on the face of i t , make a ready appeal to democratic instincts and the finest human feelings. There is nothing to object to in the title, but the motives underlying the title and the organization and the means adopted for giving effect to those motives are such as to bring any genuine democratic community up against the organization with a determination to stamp it out of existence. It is plain that this organization has made considerable progress in1 this country. For what purpose have its members come to the Commonwealth ? To introduce and make possible a more perfect industrial and social regimes No. They came here at the close of a period when men who had grown grey in the fight which has been waged for years in Australia had achieved the freedom which the members of this organization are seeking to destroy. The leaders of the Industrial Workers of the World in Australia to-day were never heard of in this country until the battle for industrial freedom was fought and won, and now they have come here to rob us of the fruits of our victory. I know the king-pin of the organization. I know him well. What is his career? When we were battling against extraordinary odds in the western State, and also in the eastern States, this man came amongst us, but when the Boxer rebellion occurred in China he left this country and allowed t e burden, worry, and anxiety of the fight to be borne by his mates who remained. He now comes back to tell us how we should do .things in Australia, though he failed to stand to his guns as his comrades did to bring about some improvement in the social and industrial sphere. Is it not enough to try the patience of any one, that,' after men have fought up the steep slopes of adversity for the last quarter of a century and have gained recognition for unionism in this country, these mushroom and cancerous growths should appear amongst us and try to wither the beautiful tree of liberty and rob us of the fruits of. all our strivings ? Where these people have come from nobody knows and irbbody cares, but they are making us care now since the screen has been pulled aside, and we have been able to discover the true inwardness of their motives. I appeal to honorable senators, and especially to all who have trodden the thorny path in the past and by their efforts brought about the era of freedom that obtains in Australia to-day, not to deal too tenderly with the men who are now endeavouring to rob us of that freedom.. 10152 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Not - too tenderly? Six months seems to me to be very tender as a penalty. 10152 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH It is quite true that i t is perhaps somewhat too tender. I ask honorable senators to run through the list of the leaders of this organization and ask where they were when the battle for in dustrial freedom was being fought in Australia. Like the boy who stood on the burning deck, they were not there 10152 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock I have always thought he stood to his post. 10152 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Honorable senators laugh at what I have said, but that is the worst of being too impetuous. If I had been listening to myself from another part of the chamber I should have waited until the sentence was completed. I should have known then that i t was my intention to say that they were not where they were wanted. They come now where they are not wanted, and they come at a time when they may, if unchecked, bring about the ruin and destruction of all the good work that has been accomplished by those who were early in the field. I believe that the organization to which I refer had its origin in America, a country where the battle of Democracy has not yet been fought out. They have come to teach the Democracy of Australia how to fight their battle after having failed in the, country of their origin. If we need leaders and guides in any field of activity we look for men who can point to a successful career in that particular field. We do not require men Who have failed in the fight for Democracy in the country of their origin to come here to teach us to do the things that we have already done. We do not want such people to come here and menace the liberty we have gained, and who may succeed in destroying that liberty unless heed is at once taken of their action. Happily, in Australia we have majority rule. It is not a fetish to which I am at all times prepared to bow down, because I know that the majority may be wrong as well as right. But so far we have discovered no better expedient for arriving at the opinion of the people, and although at times i t may be harsh, inconsistent, and even vindictive in its operation, we must for the time being depend upon majority rule to enforce the principles of Democracy for lack of some better expedient. We are glad to have majority rule in Australia to-day, but these people would undermine that principle, which has meant so much in the success of our movement. There are in this community practically no leisured individuals. We are a community of breadwinners, and nothing else. We may differ as to the form which our industrial, social, and economic legislation should take, but we are determined that it shall be directed and moulded by the majority of the people's representatives in a deliberative assembly. Here we -have to deal with men who are tossing aside this principle, covenant, and guard against reaction. Perhaps there is no lesson more clearly taught by history than the fact that history has a habit of repeating itself. We have a Democracy here with everything ready to hand to mould and fashion its destiny, and we find men coming amongst us with the intention to bring that system into disrepute and undermine it. I say that i t is the duty of every friend of Democracy to set aside the individuals who would bring about such a state of Ahings. Men cannot be Democrats and at the same time sustain or have any sympathy with the Industrial Workers of the World. What are the methods of this organization ? Under the system of majority rule we have adopted a method of counting heads, but the Industrial Workers of the World prefer to break heads to accomplish their object. We test the sense of the majority as to what is best to be done. The sense of the majority of the people of Australi is reflected from time to time in our Parliaments. But the Industrial Workers of the World say that men should not be approached by national methods. They contend that the way to convince a man is to take away his life or his liberty or to rob him of his property. Nothing is more definitely established than the democratic principle that the units of a community are to be approached through the gateway of reason, but the Industrial Workers of the World do not propose to approach the individual by those means. They propose, rather, to approach him with the firestick and the firearm, the instruments of unreasoning brutality, rather than the instrument!; of reason and equity. We have in Australia the purest form of Democracy to be seen in any part of the globe. There is no equal in human history to the freedom we enjoy in Australia to-day. Having that priceless possession it is up to us to see that no influence is encouraged -which would lessen the measure of democratic freedom which our ceaseless efforts. in the past have made the established order of things in the Commonwealth to-day. When an organization like this ,proposes to supplant the reign of reason with the. reign of force, it is about time that society took some action to suppress i t , because we must not forget that society has its rights as well as the individual. Down the vista of the years a continuous battle has been waged against the encroachment on the welfare of the individual by society. But in this instance the position, is exactly reversed, and the interests and welfare of society are being encroached upon by individuals.' * If we are prepared to stand idly by and to allow that state of things to continue, we shall deserve to lose the respect which is entertained for our. democratic institutions, which hitherto we have regarded with so much pride. The purpose of the Bill is to secure the enactment of ' legislation which will enable punishment to be administered for offences that up to date have not been recognised as offences in the eye of the law. The measure will also be used for the purpose of supplementing and strengthening existing legislation. In i t we propose to impose penalties for crimes which up to date have not found a place in our common law. In view of recent happenings, i t is obviously time that we took stock of the position; i t is time that we dealt with those individuals who have come here to rob us of our liberty, and to wrench from us the fruits gained by many years of struggle; i t is time that we toed the scratch, and, as a Parliament, determined to scotch' these social vipers. 10154 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY To what crimes does the Minister refer? 10154 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Clause s 4 and 5 of the Bill deal with crimes which hitherto have not been included in the category of crimes. We now find ourselves confronted with unprecedented conditions in the history of Democracy, and i t is therefore up to Democracy to assert itself. If these men are allowed to gain ground - a s they have gained i t — if they are allowed to get their members into the railway service and the fire brigade service to an alarming degree, and Parliament stands impotently by, Parliament will deservedly be brought into disrepute. A word or two upon the doctrine of going slow—tha t false doctrine which is preached by the Industrial Workers of the World. I am entitled to comment on this evil aspect of an evil programme which has been promulgated in this country during the past few years. With rare exceptions I have never lost an opportunity of telling my audiences in Western Australia that the man who does not do a fair day's work for a fair day's wage is an enemy of the Labour partv. as well as his own worst enemy. When men openly preach the insane policy of loafing, that circumstance 'in itself—eve n if there were no other—woul d justify the introduction of a measure of this description. 10154 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen This Bill does not deal with members who preach that doctrine unless they are members of an unlawful organization. 10154 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH When once we declare an association like the Industrial Workers of the World an unlawful association, we pillory i t before the people, and enable them to size up whether or not i t ought further to exist in any form. When we know that one of its doctrines is that of going slow— a doctrine the practice of which would have such fatal and fateful consequences to a young country like this - i t is time that we branded its authors as enemies of the public. 10154 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen The Bill does not deal with them. 10154 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH f the doctrine of going slow were to find favour here to any appreciable extent, i t would be the worst thing that could happen to the mere handful of population that at present holds this continent. What is the: position ? We came here and dispossessed a native race. On what grounds? On. no other ground than that its members, were "going slow," and were not making the best use of i t 10154 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen —O n the ground that we wanted i t . 10154 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH We dispossessed them, and now i t is suggested that we,, in our turn, should " go slow," as the aborigines before us had been doing. If we wish to protect this continent, we cannot accomplish our purpose by " going slow." If the people once get into their heads the idea that they can adopt that policy, they will pave the way for the in coming of an invader, who will make better use of this country. I do not desire to labour the question. I am confident that the Bill, though its appearance may be rather late, will receive the whole-hearted support of every member of this Chamber. It is a measure which is calculated to stamp out the disorders of which I have spoken, to brand as unlawful an association which should never have found a footing here, and to enable us to continue the task of working out our own destiny by peaceful methods. 10154 11.39 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I do not pretend that I could, even if I tried, work up any enthusiasm for this Bill, in the way that the Minister for Works has done. In my opinion, it is scarcely worth the time that we are asked to devote to its consideration. In saying that, I hardly think it necessary to assume that honorable senators have as strong a loathing of the crimes which are recited in the measure as it is possible for civilized beings to have. There cart be no sympathy with such crimes. But when Senator Lynch urged that these crimes were of so serious a nature that we could not afford to deal tenderly with them, I could not refrain from interjecting that so severely do the Government propose to deal with them that under this Bill they contemplate imposing a punishment of six months' imprisonment. 10155 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE And deportation as well; that is a big punishment. 10155 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN We can size up the significance that is attached to the Bill by the fact that adequate punishment for the offences - t o describe which Ministers here and elsewhere have exhausted every adjective in the dictionary's evidently six months' imprisonment. 10155 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - But there is deportation as well. 10155 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN If there be an attempt to make the punishment fit the crime, we can only judge of the nature of the crime by the extent of the punishment that will be inflicted under the Bill, and not by the language employed by the Minister. I cannot become deeply immersed in this measure, but there are one or two points connected with i t to which I would like to direct attention. To describe the Industrial Workers of the World organization as a widespread one is altogether a mistaken idea. The In dustrial Workers of the World is not an organization. It is a gang of criminals. 10155 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - It is also an organization. 10155 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN It is a gang of criminals who practise incendiarism and murder. It is true that there are thousands of persons in this country who have unconsciously imbibed some of the Industrial Workers of the World doctrines, but they are not members of that association. The men who have been associated with acts of violence in Sydney are not members of a political organization, but are merely a band of criminals. But when we go beyond that aspect of the question, and deal with the spread of their doctrines, I believe that some of those doctrines have obtained acceptance in the minds of many of the younger generation to an extent far beyond the membership of the Industrial Workers of the World. 10155 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Does the honorable senator know that the Industrial Workers o£ the World obtained 100,000 members in America during the first year of its existence ? 10155 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN I challenge the Minister for Works to furnish the Senate with the number of members enrolled in the Industrial Workers of the World as disclosed by the books which were seized by the authorities in Sydney. The reason why I stress this point is that the Bill differentiates between an offence when i t is committed by an individual and the same offence when i t is committed by an individual who happens to be a member of an organization. Now, if a man attempts of his own volition to burn down my house, his offence is just as great as if he attempted to burn it down as a member' of an organization. Yet when we come to the less actively criminal aims of the Industrial Workers of the World a distinction is made in this B ill between the members of that organization and ordinary citizens. The Minister has referred to the doctrine of " going slow " that has been so assiduously promulgated. I agree with him that i t is the most insidious poison that can be injected into the veins of any community. A lazy, ineffective community can no more succeed in the struggle for life than can a lazy, ineffective individual. We would be false to ourselves if we refused to recognise that this pernicious doctrine has obtained disciples in Australia, and that i t is being practised' here. The only question which we have to consider now is, Has the virus been inoculated, and is i t likely to grow 1 I believe that i t has been injected into the veins of the community, and there are not wanting evidences that i t is spreading, though, there is no evidence to justify a wholesale charge against the workers of Australia. Nevertheless, there is sufficient evidence to make every thoughtful man ask himself whether, the weeds being present, i t is not time to commence pulling them up before they overrun the garden. I wish now to emphasize the distinction which the Bill draws between an individual who is a member of the Industrial Workers of the World Association and one who is not. The Bill provides that any one being a member of an unlawful association, who advocates, encourages, incites, or instigates to any action intended or calculated to prevent or hinder the production, manufacture, or transport for purposes connected with the war of troops, arms, munitions, or warlike material, including foodstuffs, shall be guilty of an offence. But any one' who commits that offence, whether he is a member of an association or not, is doing a public wrong. To show how great that wrong is as i t exists today, quite recently the newspapers of Lithgow and Sydney reported Police Court proceedings, showing that at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory a man named Quinlan was put on a certain machine, and turned out 120 of the particular article on which he was engaged per day. The union, or somebody, or custom, had established 100 as the limit, and the evidence given at the Court disclosed that Quinlan was warned, not only by his fellow workmen, but by the secretary o,f the union, that he was not to .exceed 100. He did exceed i t , and a man named Marshland assaulted him outside. The evidence was clear that he assaulted him for that very: reason, that he had refused to obey the warning given him in the factory. Marshland was- fined £ 3 8s. Quinlan was again warned, but took no notice of the warning, saying that he was going to do a fair thing. Marshland and three others waylaid him a few days afterwards, and again assaulted him. The evidence showed that Marshland incited the other men by. saying, " Go on, i t will only cost you £ 3 8s."—the amount which he had been previously fined. The men were brought before the Court, and again fined, but they are still working at the factory I It is of no use talking about I.W.W.-ism, and raising a scare that there is some hideous institution gripping our industries by the throat when the go-slow policy is actually applied to the production of munitions for the war. I shall have a great deal more faith in the sincerity of the Government's desire to. root out this embryonic, but still growing, evil if they tackle i t where they have ample control. I direct the attention of the Minister to that case. I am going on the newspaper reports of the proceedings at the Court, but it says very little for the administration of the Factory, and is indeed a reflection on the administration of the whole Department, that the occurrence was not reported to headquarters. I brought the matter under notice myself, and wires asking for reports were sent from here. 10156 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - It might not be correct. 10156 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN — I am sorry to say i t is correct, and T am not speaking without authority. When the thing happened, very short action should have been taken. If the manager did not have the power, he should have brought the case under the notice of the Minister. I believe many managers of our public institutions feel that they have to put up with that sort of thing, because they hesitate to force a row with the unions. I am sure my honorable friends, who are closely associated with the unions, do not believe in that sort of thing, and they will confer the biggest and most lasting benefit on unionism if they make i t their business to denounce i t . I know what their feelings are, and that not one of them would support i t 10156 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - We have had to fight that in every union. 10156 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Ther e is a very short way of dealing with the secretary of the union at Lithgow. Of course, if the thing is showing itself in every union, i t has to be fought, but i t is of no use to say that i t is the Industrial Workers of the World organization that you are up against." We might as well look things squarely in the face. If it is merely a small growth, i t can be rooted out, by the influence of the more sober-minded men in the Labour movement, because they must see that if i t is allowed to go on i t must mean suicide for the unions. 10156 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - Seeing that these men are against the Labour party, may there not be a few of them in some of the Liberal organizations? 10156 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN It is. quite possible. If Senator McKissock can bring under my notice any case where an I.W.W. man is in the Liberal ranks and is practising I.W.W. principles, I shall do what I suggest should be done by the best friends of the Labour party in this case. 10156 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - I can mention some I.W.W. men who voted for you at the last election. 10156 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN The honorable senator is evidently better acquainted with them than I am, but what sort of an opinion must the Industrial Workers of the World have of him if they voted for me in preference to him? 10156 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - They, only used you to beat me. 10156 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Ther e was no compliment to me in any vote they gave me, but "we know that at all elections men give votes to some' one they do not like to block some one whom they like less. This evil is -largely under the control of the unions themselves. The evidence in this case was that the man had been warned by the union secretary. Surely the unions of this country have some control over him, or has the movement got so strong a hold on the unions, as Senator Watson suggests, that, although they are fighting it , they cannot throw i t out? 10157 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - I did not say that. T. say that unionism has a strong hold of it. 10157 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN If it has, unionism should, in its own interests, throw out these seven devils. If i t does not, they are going to swallow unionism. If the evidence given at the Police Court is correct, and I have to assume that i t is until it is challenged, the responsibility rests on those who control or lead the trade union movement to see at once that that secretary is called to account for what he did. It is of no use for them to say they are against this sort of thisng, if the officials of the unions are allowed to encourage i t . It seems to me. that ,the B ill is going to be ineffective, inasmuch as i t does not deal with the evil itself unless i t is practised by those who come together as an organization. In fact, i t does not seem to matter much whether the Bill is passed or not. I am going to support i t , but I am not going to make any pretence about it. I believe that, under the common law in every State, those who endanger human life can already be dealt with. The Bill provides for summary procedure, which is an advantage. It shortens the time, but changes the method by which the criminal is tried. However, so far as the rest of the Bill is concerned, I cannot regard i t as material. It does not strike at. the real evil when i t allows individuals, as individuals, to do a thing which i t forbids to members bf an organization. They become criminals only when they join an association, and enter their names on a membership roll. The way out is so easy that I cannot regard the Bill as of much importance one way or the other." I notice that, in clause 4, the destruction of human life and the destruction of property are placed on the .same plane. It is rather strange to find that in any B ill at this time of day, more particularly coming from those who have long claimed that there should always be a sharp distinction between the values attached to life and property. 10157 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - But they are controlled now by the Cook party. 10157 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN That is not the reason.- It may arise from the desire to bring the offence under the Summary Pro cedure Act, and I think, under that Act, the punishment is limited to six months, which may possibly account for the same punishment being attached to both crimes; but it is still an anomaly to put an offence against human life in the same category as an offence against property. If , however, the provision arises from a mistake on the part of the Government, they might consider whether i t is not wise even now to differentiate between the punishments allotted to those who seek to destroy human life and those who are guilty of the still serious, but comparatively minor, offence of destroying property. 10157 11.56 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER .- Like the Leader of the Opposition, I have no desire to take the. Bill seriously. The Minister introducing it spoke in a strain of such deadly earnest that I really began to think, while not looking at the Bill, that the Government were in earnest. If the evils arising from the organization to which he referred are so great, surely the Government could have introduced a Bill that would have been operative over a 'longer period than " the war and six months thereafter, but no longer." If evils which are pointed to with so much enthusiasm and earnestness are such a grave menace to our existing society, why are they a menace only during the' term of the war and for six months thereafter? 10157 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Because the Government have no power except under the War Precautions Act. 10157 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I believe that under the War Precautions Act, as we passed it, the Government could have made the period of this measure longer, if they really believed what they say. Senator Lynch has assured us that he has been personally quite brave enough to meet the Industrial Workers of the World men, and .point out that the unionist who is not prepared to do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay is a traitor to his union and his organization. I do not know much about this Industrial Workers of the World business, but I am told that their argument for going slow is based upon the very proposition that Senator Lynch so bravely put before the unions. They argue, that if a man has to do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay i t is quite logical to say he should do a good day's work for a good day's pay, and the natural consequence is that • he should do a bad day's work for a bad day's pay. 10157 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Do you mean that the Small Arms Factory is paying a bad day's wage? 10157 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I am simply stating a fact 10158 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Do you know the constitution of the Industrial Workers of the World ? 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I do not; but speaking from my personal experience, which is also that of every early member of the Labour party, I can say that at one time the Liberals branded us as criminals who were only waiting until they got power to allow the idle and unthrifty to rob the thrifty and industrious of what they had gathered together by years of hard toil. I might add that in those days, had a measure been introduced to impose certain nains and penalties upon the members of the Labour party, there were men in the Liberal organizations, including some who were not in Parliament, who would have advocated its passage, really believing that we were a criminal menace to societv. 10158 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - But the Labour party never preached those doctrines. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER Our opponents continually asserted that we did preach them. People) on farms were told by Liberal organizers all sorts of tales. One farmer was assured that if the Labour party came into power at the next election they would come for his off-side leader, and when he read that the Labour party had won he spent days waiting with a double-barrelled gun for the man to ap-t pearl Those things were said against a party which never had in its ranks any one with dishonest motives in respect of the wealth of others. It is therefore quite possible that exaggerated ideas may be entertained as to the constitution of the organization known as the Industrial Workers of the World. If the Minister introducing the B ill had put the constitution of the organization in the Bill he' might have given us a better understanding of its objects. We repudiate altogether any connexion with the Industrial Workers of the World. We have repudiated i t absolutely. 10158 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Some of the unions did not. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER We repudiated i t just as a section of the Government supporters repudiated the Labour party, and now charge us with taking our instructions from outside bodies. I am going to place before the Senate the views on this subject of the Executive or Labour Conference, that body'which speaks for those outside organizations which honorable senators opposite are pleased to term are our masters, and personally I admit I am quite prepared to recognize them as our masters. 10158 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - I never . used the term. 10158 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS Doe s the honorable senator seriously suggest that any senator on this side of the chamber has associated members of his party with the Industrial Workers of the World? 10158 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Your leader did it during the referendum campaign. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER h reply to the interjection I may say I believe that this Bill has been introduced for the purpose of associating our party with the Industrial Workers of the World, and if I am wrong T shall be pleased to have a contradiction from the Government. 10158 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Absolutely no. 10158 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS The honorable senator is wrong, and he does not answer my question. I want to know if he contends that we have associated his party with the Industrial Workers of the World? 10158 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Senator Lynch said so a few minutes ago. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER The resolution of the Labour Conference to which I have referred reads as follows: That this Conference of the Australian Labour party emphatically protests against the unscrupulous attempt made during the recent conscription campaign hy Mr. Hughes and others to associate the Labour party with the methods and the members of the Industrial Workers of the World. Now there is an emphatic protest by the governing body of the Labour movement in Australia against the methods of the Industrial Workers of the World. 10158 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - Was that motion carried unanimously? 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER — Absolutely, without a dissentient voice. 10158 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - I think Senator Gardiner said something about it. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I am speaking of what I know, and I repeat that the executive of the Labour movement, representing our political masters, have declared against the Industrial Workers of the World. 10158 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Our' alleged masters. 10158 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I do not care whether the outside organizations, are regarded as our alleged masters or not, but I do know that if I were not working for them I would probably work for a harder master. Now let us have a look at this " go-slow " movement which has been so emphatically condemned of late,- and see what it represents. Is the "go-slow" policy peculiar ;to the working classes 1 10159 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - Give a lawyer a good case, and you will soon see. 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER My honorable friend has given me an apt illustration. Give a lawyer fat fees, and in many cases he will time his argument by the clock, knowing quite well that the adjournment of the Court will bring a refresher tb his brief. I venture to say that even in 'this Parliament may be found some men whose arguments would at any rate bring them under the suspicion of their clients in this respect, especially as the unfortunate client knows only too well that, as a rule, he has to pay. That sort of thing is going on all the time, and i t has become the joke of the Courts, but nobody has been offended at i t . But let this principle be applied by the working men, and society is at once shocked because the idea is held- that if men are honest they will do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, and anything that causes them to act "otherwise must be regarded as a menace to society. 10159 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - But men are no longer honest if they practise the "go-slow" policy. 10159 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson Some are not honest because they work too quick. 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I have instanced the barristers in illustration of my argument, and if any honorable senators are inclined to think that I am drawing upon my imagination, let them pay a visit to the Courts and see for themselves. 10159 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - The Judges have frequently brought these practices under notice. 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER Senator Guthrie suggested that I know nothing about the Industrial Workers of the World. Well, I am told that one of the things they advocate is the lessening of wealth and the restriction of production, with the idea of restricting the power of the wealth-owning classes of the community. 10159 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - No; their policy is to ruin employers and to abolish the wage system. 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I realize that any policy that tends to the lessening of wealth injures most the men - the working men - wh o have the least wealth. There is no question about that. If the amount of wealth' to go round is reduced, the party controlling the distribution of that wealth will see that i t gets its full share, with the result that the working classes will suffer, and I want to tell the Senate that the Industrial Workers of the World is not the only organization that has sought to bring about lessened production in this country.- Will any honorable senator with any experience of the Labour movement tell me that the coal owner has not been guilty of this policy ? We all know that the coal owner has on occasions hung up the coal industry by keeping his mines closed; but that action did not shock society. 10159 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Yes it did, and we had a Royal Commission to inquire into that matter. 10159 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall And that was the end of i t 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I admit that i t did shock the honorable senator who in terjected, and I do not want to forget the many years of good work he has done on behalf of the workers by trying to do what he thought was the right thing, and ' for which he is appreciated from one end of this country to the other; but I am saying that when coal owners issue an ultimatum that unless the coal miners accept their terms the mines will not open, they are just as much guilty in their intention as are the men who have done certain illegal acts in the name of an organization of more recent growth. 10159 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Would such a coal owner be an I.W.W. man? 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER Yes , he could be regarded as an I.W.W. man among the owning classes, and I notice that he has not been provided for in this Bill. Evidently the Government have not reached the stage of declaring that a man who will lessen production by holding out of use, not what he produces, but what Nature put into the earth, should be treated in the same manner as a man who lessens production by going slowly, by injuring machinery, or by inciting others to restrict the output of their labour. 10159 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - If coal owners did that, would you treat them now in the same way as I.W.W. men ? 10159 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I would deal with them in a common-sense way. The Government have brought down this Bill to declare as enemies of society those people who incite to crime, or attempt, by means of an organization, to restrict production ; but, apparently, the Government do not feel called upon to deal with all sections of the community. I do not want to make any protest against the B ill , because its operation will be limited for the period of the war and for six months afterwards, and because more adequate penalties for such crimes-are already provided for under the State laws. We have an illustration of this in the recent prosecution in New South Wales, where members of the Industrial Workers of the World committed the most outrageous offences that have ever been perpetrated in Australia. Under the State Act they received a punishment which I think will remind them that there is .a law in existence in New South Wales, the punishments averaging, I think, about twelve years per man, and some of them getting fifteen years' imprisonment. I want to make i t clear that we have no sympathy for men who will endanger the lives of fellow citizens, or do acts such as have been committed of late. The man with the firestick is not only an enemy of society, but is a potential murderer of innocents. I have no sympathy for the men whose stupidity leads them to' believe that by reckless acts of lawlessness they can remedy any grievances which may exist under society as constituted to-day. I think Senator McDougall interjected a little while ago that members of the Industrial Workers of the World had voted for Senator Millen and members of the Liberal party at former elections. They did so for the reason that wherever we met members of the Industrial Workers of the World we challenged their doctrines in the hope that by so doing we would prevent them from influencing other men, and we were told on more than one occasion that they intended to vote for the Liberal party. 10160 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - They are opposed to all political control, so that is not quite a fair inference. 10160 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I can produce newspaper reports of a statement made by members of the Industrial Workers of the World, who said that, not only were they going to vote against Senator Watson and myself, but that in the House of Representatives election they would vote for Mr. Fleming in preference to Mr. Johnson. I do not say they voted for Liberal candidates because they approved of their policy, but because they thought any stick was good enough to beat the dog with. 10160 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Who was the dog? 10160 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I think Senator McDougall and myself were the two candidates who, were to be beaten with the Liberal stick. I can instance also an occasion when the Acting Leader of the Government in the Senate and I came in contact with the I.W.W. men at a meeting on the Yarra-bank on a certain Sunday afternoon. On that occasion we found the men declaiming against our then leader, Mr. Fisher, and I venture to say that only force of circumstances and the fact that we were members of the Federal Parliament prevented us from dealing out just retribution to the speakers. 10160 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch And they were complaining about limitations on freedom of sj>eech, too. 10160 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Is the honorable senator aware that one of the Yarra-bank speakers referred to tools a prominent part in the attempt to drive Mr. Hughes out of the Waterside Workers Federation ? 10160 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER No, I was not aware of that 10160 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Well, I am, and I know it. for a fact. 10160 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I am just speaking of -the facts as I see them. I want to make i t quite clear that there is not, and never has been, anything in common between members of the Industrial Workers of the World and the Labour party. 10160 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Quite true; I admit that. 10158 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe Your leader did not admit that during the referendum campaign. 10158 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS e never made that accusation 10158 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe es , he did, many times; and that is what caused so much bitterness. 10160 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I want now to refer to a statement made by Senator Millen regarding the personal violence suffered by a man in the Small Arms Factory. I had something to do with a strike at that establishment a little while ago, and I know that the manager has always had authority to act Without reference to the Minister, and that he will always be maintained in a position giving him sufficient power to deal drastically on his own initiative with cases of that kind. I had experience of one trouble there. The men struck because one of the men was sacked for reading an " .extraordinary " to the men • while they were at work, dealing with the declaration of war by Bulgaria. If the manager had power to do that, in such circumstances, surely he would have power to sack men for doing what Senator Millen has stated they were doing. He could have sacked the men without appealing to the Government, and he would have been supported by Parliament and the community. I would refuse to condemn a union on a renort. even in a concrete case, that the union itself would condone the conduct of an-- oP its members who were trying to put this pernicious system of "go slow " on the platform of their organization. This measure is introduced at what is virtually the last day of the session in this year. I think that I can say that we are here this morning because of the introduction of the B ill , and that the Government consider that it is urgently needed to give them the power to stamp out an evil which they know exists in the communitv. Tn the' interval of two months before we reassemble", I hope that the Government will i have used the measure, that there will be no " going slow " with its provisions, and that there will be direct action. If this Parliament is to be kept in session because of the urgency of this measure, I hope that after i t has received the Royal assent, the Government will be active in carrying its provisions into operation. 10161 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS -The tact that the Bill is here will act as a deterrent. 10161 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER i . ao not desire to pass a mere threatening measure. 1 do not want the Government to sit quieuy and idly, and ten us by-and-by that Lne very passing of the measure had effect. If, when the Senate reassembles I find that the Government have not used the provisions of this urgent measure, I shall then be of the opinion which I held when I rose to speak- to-day. I shall consider that the Bill was merely a sham introduced for make-believe purposes by the Government, who did not believe in its reality at all. As regards the Leader of the Government here, however, his very earnestness of language and manner convinced me, and, therefore, I do not impute any make-believe to him personally. The Bill is introduced to deal with a ' most grave evil which is threatening our very social existence, and the urgency for its enactment is such that the Parliament must be kept sitting specially to pass i t before Christmas. . If , when we reassemble there is not' some f r u i t from this make-believe tree which the Government are planting to-day, and from which they expect to gather f r u i t to-morrow, I shall be more convinced than ever that they have been merely flouting Parliament— that they have been flaunting a measure before the country, perhaps for electioneering purposes, in order to make i t appear that they are the champions who are going to wipe out of existence the Industrial Workers of the World. 10161 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - You will never plant acorns then. They would take too long to grow. 10161 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I do not want to reflect upon the Government's supporters as Senator Findley is now doing by referring to the necessity to plant pea-nuts for their use1. This measure. give3 me. as one of the representatives of the Labour party in the Senate, the opportunity of clearly repudiating in Parliament, and for the benefit of this country, any connexion with the Industrial Workers of the World. If the Government, having obtained these; extra powers, wliich they claim are necessary to cope with the organization, fail to deal with its members in a drastic manner, as its provisions will enable them to do, by the time we meet again, I shall be quite prepared to stand here and charge the Government with having passed a piece of make-believe legislation which they have not the courage to give effect to. But I hope thafc I shall not have to level that charge against them. They have got all the powers which they have asked for, undiminished, and, I might almost say, uncriticised, through one House, and, personally, I am willing to allow them to have the measure put through the Senate. If in the future there is anything to complain of in regard to this obnoxious organization, upon their shoulders, and theirs only, must rest the blame. 10161 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Do you know any Act which has been an unqualified success in every way? 10161 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER If the Government act under this B ill , i t will be a proof of their sincerity and earnestness. If , at our re-assembling, we find that in the vacation the Government have used this measure in the way they intended to do, and that is to destroy a growing evil - a n organization which incites men to the destruction of machinery, the destruction of wealth, and the destruction of property - wel l and good, for that is an evil which every one recognises. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Do you admit that it exists ? 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I admit that i t exists in very many countries, but, so far as my personal knowledge is concerned, i t exists to a very small extent in Australia. My reading teaches me that this is an 'American organization, that i t is chiefly the product of the American capitalists, who, when they are trying to beat an opponent, use the dregs of society, linked in organization, to stir up strife, to stir up anything which will prevent an opponent in a particular line of business from gaining an advantage. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - You have a wrong idea. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER S o far as my reading goes,. the Industrial Workers of the World had its growth in American subsidies paid by wealthy capitalistic companies of that country to injure opposition companies in many cases. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - No. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I advise the honorable senator to consider what have been the methods of the Industrial Workers of the World in America. A great strike exists. The members of the Industrial Workers of the World may have been very active in organizing the strike. The people against whom the strike has been brought are anxious to have i t settled, and the members of the Industrial Workers of the World have been anxious to be paid as strike-breakers. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Prove a case. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER The honorable senator may say that these are not facts in America, but I say that they are. 10162 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Mention one case. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I could mention a dozen cases. I could keep this debate going until 1 o'clock, and then bring forward whole volumes to show that my statement is perfectly true. 10162 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Do not do that, but mention one case. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I will accept the challenge, and mention one case. In America a railway company got a franchise to construct a railway. The opposition company, which was running a railway line, undertook to stop the other company. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Where? 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER The opposition company found that, by legal means, they could not stop the other company. Therefore, they went to one of the private landowners, who was quite an object of sympathy— a man who had lived his life and grown grey on his little holding—an d gave him a huge sum for his land if he would simply agree to Jiang on to i t , and even against the franchise of the Legislature and against the law, refuse to give the land up to the railway company which held the franchise. He was told that if they could only bring forces enough to protect him against the law i t would be all right. Where did the forces come from ? They were discontents and Industrial Workers of the World, who remained on the piece of land ready to shoot when the railway constructors came along to construct the line, and did shoot. I could quote the case, and bring the facts before the Senate. 10162 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Now you say that they were discontents and Industrial Workers of the World ? 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER In great cities such as exist in America, where men work twelve hours a day and seven days a week, there are thousands of discontents. Let me finish the recital of the case which I was challenged to cite. These men took possession of the settler's land, and they had the sympathy of the community, because they were helping a man to retain the holding which he had occupied for years. The law was broken, the fight Continued, the works were held up, and the big railway company won. That is not a solitary instance of the methods of wealth in America. 10162 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - That is an entirely different thing. That does not connect the case with the Industrial Workers of the World. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER The law-breaking, wealthy companies in America had found the Industrial Workers of the World profitable as strike-breakers or in another capacity. 10162 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Will you connect the Industrial Workers of the World with that specific case, and give us' the name of the case? 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER ^ 1 hope that when I make a statement in the Senate I am not to be expected to produce the proof in black and white before honorable senators will believe me. I know that Senator Keating feels keenly on this point, because I instanced a specific case of going slow in connexion with a well-known union—the case of a man who asked for another refresher; a man who continued his argument with one eye on the clock and the other eye on his client. 10163 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Will you connect that case with the Industrial Workers of the World, and give us specific names, so that we can identify the case and check your statements? 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I think that I have fairly well connected the two. 10163 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - No. 10162 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER And so far as the Senate is concerned, I am quite prepared to let my reputation rest as i t is at present. My reading teaches me that the Industrial Workers of the World are there largely to break strikes, and that they receive their profits from the wealthy companies of America for strike-breaking and other evils. 10163 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Are you prepared to say that the case you cited did not occur before 1904? 10163 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I am very sorry that my honorable friends have led me into making a long speech, as I wished to deal briefly with the B ill . I doubt whether either Senator Senior or Senator Keating is so well acquainted with Labour developments and movements in America as are most members of my audience. Let me warn them that those who talk as if the members of our unions are not acquainted with what is happening in other countries under-estimate the information, the intelligence, and the ability of trade unionists. 10163 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - The case you referred to occurred before the Industrial Workers of the World was formed. 10163 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER Le t me go back to early times in Australia, when we had possibly the finest type of men whom any country was ever blessed with. I refer to the miners who were spreading themselves over the face of this country. Was it an unheard-of thing that, while one party were developing a claim to see if they were on payable ore, another party alongside that claim was going slow to save themselves work ? 10163 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - You mean shepherding. 10163 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER It was going slow in every sense of the word. " Going slow" was indulged in before the Industrial Workers of the World came into existence.- Still, I do not connect " going slow" with the miners who shepherd a claim. The limitation of the production of wealth, the very destruction of wealth itself, has come from people engaged in dealing with the products of a community. A few years ago, in Sydney, you could go down to the premises of merchants and see carted away decaying potatoes, to be taken to the tip for the purpose of being destroyed, because i t paid the merchants better to hold foodstuffs for a high price than tb handle them for a low price. There was a destruction of wealth, the destruction of the food supply of the people, because men simply said t h a t . i t paid them better to handle a little and keep out of the market stuff which would reduce the price. I am not supporting that kind of thing, but showing that the destruction of wealth, wliich, morally speaking, belongs to the whole community, is not participated in only by a few men belonging to the organization known as the Industrial Workers of the World. It is a thing which the wealthy sections of the community have practised for years, but i t did not shock the consciences of the representatives of the wealthy classes, and, therefore, no legislation was brought in to deal with the practice. The members of the Labour party have been conscious of this system for years, and because we were a class-conscious body, fighting for reforms, we held together, and we still hold together. This measure is the forerunner of the legislation which will be passed when the enlightened conscience of the whole community says that, just as the members of the Industrial Workers of the World, for their practices, must be punished, so must members of the trading and commercial sections of the community be brought to justice. The men who withhold the food supply, the men who withhold the milk supply, and so destroy the infant life of the community, will yet be brought under the sections of an Act- more severe than this Bill, because there is a growing conscience of the people which says that meat shall not be held in Queensland when the rest of the people of Australia require i t at a reasonable price. It may be a distinct advantage to one State to hold its meat supply, but there is a growing feeling in the general community that national needs must be equitably distributed. 10164 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator is going a little wide of the subject. 10164 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER I thank you, sir, tor reminding me. I intended to connect my remarks,' and say that the companies who refuse to kill their beef to supply the market, unless they get the exorbitant price which they demand, should be legislated for in exactly the same way as those who restrict production. I was referring to the men who hold beef out of use when the rest of the community are hungering for it,- and have to pay twice its value to obtain i t . At present the conscience of the community does not demand that they shall be treated as criminals, but we shall not have long to wait for a sufficiently enlightened conscience to deal with these people as this Bill proposes to deal with the Industrial Workers of the" World. I have no desire to delay the passing of the Bill any longer. Though I have occupied more time than I intended to do, I hope that my remarks upon the subject have not been too lengthy. I end as I began by repudiating any connexion with the Industrial Workers of the World. 10164 12.33 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR . - Honorable senators, by the remarks they have made, would give the impression that they consider that the Industrial Workers of the World is a very old association. I want to say that as an association it dates back only to the year 1905. It arose out of a combination of two large federations of labour in the eastern and western States of America. After this combination was achieved, it was felt that there was a class in the unions that it did not reach, and in January, 1905, the organization now known as the Industrial Workers of the World issued a manifesto that was distributed throughout the United States of America.It was signed by twenty-seven individuals, and it called upon the unattached industrialists to form themselves into a large union. They met in the' summer of 1905, and formed the basis of the present Industrial Workers of the World organization.. It included not only the unattached unions, but several others also. Within the organization there we're included those who believed in political action, those who believed in economic action through the political machinery, and the third group comprising those who believed only in direct action. When the balloting took place for the election of president, chairman, and executive of the organization it was found that all the officers elected were persons who disbelieved in political action, and believed only in direct action. As a result of this, the organization, which at the close of the first year numbered 100,000 members in the "United States of America, before the close of the second year had dwindled down to a mere handful of leaders. I mention the date of the establishment of the organization because I desire to show that the case referred to by Senator Gardiner was antecedent to the establishment of the Industrial Workers of the World. I wish to make it clear that I know of the case the honorable senator cited, and can show that the Industrial Workers of the World, as an organization, is of more recent origin. 10164 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall It has existed in Australia for ten years. 10164 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR The principles of the organization may have been discussed in Australia for a longer period, but the information I have given is taken from a work by one of the most authoritative writers on the subject of industrial unionism in America. I refer to Grote's Organized Labour in America, which was published only this year. The book has been - so recently added to our Library that it does not yet appear upon our catalogue. Whilst directing honorable senators to the sources from which information may be obtained, I may be allowed to say that there is another work published by John Fargo on Unionism and Syndicalism which contains much of the information given by Grote, but deals more fully with Syndicalism. We are, however, concerned not so much with the history of this organization as with the methods i t has adopted to give effect to its objects. 10164 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator Guy - Can the honorable senator quote the constitution of the organization ? 10164 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR The constitution was given in the manifesto to which I have referred. That was the basis of the constitution. I cannot quote the constitution of the organization as it now exists, but the objective may be seen from this quotation— The' struggle must go on until the workers of the world, organized as a class, take possession of the earth and the machinery of production, and abolish the wage system. The objective of the organization is no merely to consolidate the unions in one big union, but to acquire possession of the earth itself, and all means of production and every bit of machinery necessary for production. It aims at the abolition of the wage system. 10165 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Does the honorable senator not think that the " Cattle King " of Australia has given practical effect to that objective ? 10165 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR My honorable friend is welcome to his own opinion on that point. The Industrial Workers of the World do not believe in the old demand for a fair day's pay for a fair.day's work, but. in the abolition of the wage system. It acts on the principle that the workers producing all the wealth should have all the wealth,' and should adopt the most-direct means of getting all that they have produced. 10165 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - What is wrong about that? 10165 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR The honorable senator may be in sympathy with them. 10165 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - Senator Senior, as a Labour man, should be in sympathy with that doctrine. 10165 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR Whilst the honorable senator may believe, as I do, that the producers of wealth should own the wealth they produce, I ask him whether he is in sympathy with the methods proposed by the Industrial Workers of the World to attain that end. 10165 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - That is another thing. 10164 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator Guy Are their methods set forth in their constitution? 10165 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR No , they are not set forth in the constitution, but are taught as a natural deduction from their objective. As a result of the withdrawal from the organization of the two groups to which I have referred, the third group was left alone to form the nucleus of the Industrial Workers of the World, and i t was in character revolutionary and anarchistic. The members of that group did not believe in using Parliament at all, but in direct action. They believed in going to their objective in a straight line, arid for them all means were normal that would achieve their end. They act upon the principle that the end justifies the means. That is to say, that the betterment of the workers, if i t can be accomplished by the means they advocate, justifies the adoption of those means. There are two or three methods which they consider justifiable. One is the method "of the general strike. We know that that has been considered by many persons connected with trade unions. The general strike may cover a group of unions in coordinate trades. A strike amongst the ironworkers may include a strike of coal workers and transporters of iron and coal. The general strike may involve a nation, a province, a district, or only a city.' If the method is applied to a city like Melbourne, the idea is that every organization within the boundaries of the city shall be included in the strike. The object in the adoption of this method is not so much to include all classes of workers in a strike as to inspire terror. It is a system of terrorizing in order to achieve a purpose. I might mention the case of Spokane, where a strike was declared in order to secure the right of speech. The result was that they succeeded in landing a number of persons in gaol. I think that something- like 500 persons were sent to gaol for contesting the right to speak at street corners, and th'e expenditure involved in litigation totalled about 400,000 dollars. Now, we in Australia have never objected to the right of any person to address public meetings at our street corners. Seeing that(fhe conditions which gave birth to this organization in America are so utterly dissimilar from those which obtain in Australia, i t necessarily follows that its methods ought not to be applicable to this country? Here there are three factors connected with'the Industrial Workers of the World to which I wish to direct-attention. In the first place, there is the association itself, then there is the philosophy underlying i t, which is known as Syndicalism, and, lastly, there is the spirit of Anarchism. In regard to sabotage, the doctrine of going -slow- 10165 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - What is the definition of the word "sabotage"? 10165 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR The term is derived from a French word, meaning boot or shoe. In French i t means to move like one who wears wooden shoes, and who therefore moves slowly. My own conviction, is that the methods of the Industrial Workers of the World are absolutely immoral. If a man undertakes to work for a master for a given wage, he should, as an honest man, supply that which he has contracted to supply. If he is not receiving the rate of remuneration that he should get, he is justified -in adopting all lawful means to obtain i t . But where a servant in receipt of a fair wage renders i t impossible for his. master to pay him that wage, he is doing a dishonest act either by wasting the time or the goods of his employer. It is easy to see how the operation of this pernicious doctrine might have the most disastrous effects. In time of war i t might endanger our means of communication, imperil our crops, and even' cut off the means of sustenance of life itself. Besides the general strike and .sabotage, another method adopted by the Industrial Workers of the World is that which is known as " direct action." The aim of the organization is to entirely ignore political action. Deeply embedded in its constitution is a plank which affirms that i t will not ally itself with any political party. Consequently I was somewhat surprised to hear Senator Gardiner declare that certain prominent members of the Industrial Workers of the World had voted either for himself or his party 10166 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - The honorable senator is aware that there are three distinct branches of the Industrial Workers of the World here. 10166 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR I know that there are two distinct branches in America - one in Detroit, and another at Chicago It is the revolutionary section of the association which has its head-quarters at Chicago, and i t is from that section that the offshoot in 'Australia is derived. The Industrial Workers of the World, I repeat believes in the subversion of all government. It does not recognise that any Government has a right to rule at all. 10166 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - As the members of that organization do not get their names upon the electoral roll, how can they have been a factor in the referendum campaign ? 10166 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR The honourable senator knows that they are compelled to enroll. 10166 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - They would sooner pay the fine than enroll. 10166 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR How they vote, and for whom they vote, I am not prepared to say, but I do know that a fundamental plank of their platform is a disbelief in any State action. They eliminate political parties, and hence the method which they advocate, and which is known as " direct action." All that they seek to achieve they endeavour to achieve by means of a- combination of unions in a certain direction, for the purpose of controlling, all means of .production. It is a good thing that this Bill has been introduced. But at the same time I want to dispel the idea that is apparently entertained by Senator Gardiner, that there is any intention on the part of the Government to reflect in any way upon any branch of the united Labour party. 10166 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - It is just an election kite. 10166 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR I ,do not believe that i t is anything of the sort. In view of what has recently occurred, i t is obviously time that some action was taken. In the presence of such crimes as have been committed, Parliament ought not to remain silent. 10166 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - This Bill will accomplish nothing. 10166 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR I do not think that there is any machinery at the present time which will reach the man who incites to crime. The measure may be a small one, "but i t will serve a useful purpose, and for my own part I am prepared to facilitate its passage.- In regard to the penalties imposed under i t , I merely wish to point out that to a man who is not an Australian, deportation will probably be a far heavier punishment than six months' imprisonment. I am prepared, as rapidly as possible consistent with due consideration being given to i t , to aid in passing the B ill . 10166 12.29 KVH Queensland 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN . - I am convinced that this Bill is nothing more than a piece of bluff. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.80 p.m. 10166 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN I regard the Bill as a piece of pure bluff on the part of the Government, a sham, a fraud, and a snare—particularl y a 'snare for the Labour party, but the Government will find that the Labour party are not likely to be caught in i t . There are some big principles underlying the B ill , and I am not going to be browbeaten or bluffed by the Government, nor am I going to pander to the clamour of the Conservatives, as the Government have done. I shall treat the Bill as i t appeals to me. We should treat institutions, societies, and organizations as they are and for what they are worth. Our attitude towards any given institution should be in accordance with its actions. If an institution is not guilty of anything illegal, we sliould not condemn i t . The thing to condemn is the criminal action of criminals. ' We should deal with the individual, because once you get away from the principle of treating an institution on its merits or demerits, you get on to the wrong track. If you take up the stand that, because the members of any given society commit crimes, the society itself is to be condemned, you land yourself in difficulties. Supposing a member of the Hughes party, or even of the Labour party, committed murder or robbery, would you deal with the party or the individual ? If you are fair, you would deal with the individual. You would proceed to suppress him, and not the party. Of course, if the party encouraged and abetted him, I would have no more time for i t than for him. If you are going to suppress a body, no matter what i t is, because of the acts of an individual, you may have not only to deal with an individual member of the Labour party, or the Hughes party, or a trade union, or any other institution, when he commits a wrong, but also to suppress the body to which he belongs. That is the logical consequence of the position taken up by the Minister for Works. I am against crime and criminals, and, whether the criminal is a member of a party or not, I am after him, and will deal witli him as the law demands. The Minister said a great deal about liberty this afternoon. The Bill itself strikes at the very tap-root of liberty by laying down the principle that we must suppress institutions because of the acts of individuals. I remember that in my own country some great institutions were suppressed, ' not because they were no good, but because of the irresponsible acts of irresponsible individuals. That has made me very chary about condemning or suppressing a body unless I am satisfied that i t is vicious and destructive of liberty or society. I have heard a great deal about the Industrial Workers of the World, and when the Bill was introduced I ask myself if I could vote to prohibit or suppress them. I decided that I would not be governed by the acts of individuals, and looked up the objective and constitution of the organization. Personally, I have no sympathy with the methods which the individual members of the body have adopted, and I had to go to some trouble to get a copy of their constitution. I have again and again seen members of quite a number of organizations, altogether apart from the Industrial Workers of the World, advocate and propagate' ideas that were not in keeping with the spirit of the party or organization they represented, but i t would have been a foul injustice to the movement to condemn i t because of the irresponsible utterances of individuals. I have heard that the constitution of the Industrial Workers of the World incites to murder, robbery, and various other crimes. The copy I have here is available for honorable senators to read at any time, But I miSt confess that, after reading i t carefully, I have not found a single-line in i t that .can be construed in itself into the advocacy of any of the crimes enumerated, in another place or here. I shall be no party to suppressing a body because of the acts of individuals. If I did that I might be forced later on to vote for the suppression of my own party because some individual -member of i t advocated something out of keeping with its principles. The matter is sufficiently important to place on record the objective of the Industrial Workers of the World. As I am not going to vote for the suppression of a body unless I am satisfied that it is criminal in itself, or incites to crime or interferes with the proper development of civilization or society, I want to vindicate my vote and attitude by reading that objective. I shall show by so doing that all this talk about the institution, and all this .coupling of i t with acts of individuals, is so much rubbish. It reads as follows— The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of working people, and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. Is there anything wrong; with that? Will any one on the other side take exception to that clause? 10167 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - -That is not an objective. 10167 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN It is, just as the Labour party has its objective, which is the quintessence of its platform— Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the earth and the machinery of production, and abolish the wage system. The abolition of the wage system, that is all. We have at all times advocated the abolition of that system. Does Senator Senior believe, in it? We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer liand.i makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever-growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows* one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping to defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. ,1 do not agree with that, but is there anything criminal in it? It is merely a difference of opinion as to political methods, and there is nothing in i t for which this body should be suppressed any more than some of our unions might have been suppressed years ago— These conditions can bo changed, and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries, if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lock-out is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all. What is wrong with " an injury to. one the concern of all? 10168 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Is not a general strike dangerous to the public safety ? 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN The general strike may be wrong, but i t is part of their propaganda, and you can hardly regard it. as a criminal act. If you advocate a strike at all i t is only a question of degree. The general strike simply happens to be a bigger strike than a'single strike. Of course, Senator Bakhap is against all uprisings in the interests of liberty, and for the improvement of working conditions. He would not be true to his party if he were not. Instead of the Conservative motto, " A fair day's wages for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner thc revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system.",. What is wrong with that? 10168 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - What are they going to put in its place? 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN That is a matter which the evolution of politics will determine later on. The wage system every day is growing weaker and weaker, but so long as we have i t we shall have industrial slavery. Sooner or later wagedom • will go, as serfdom and slavery went— It is the historic mission of thc working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for the every-day struggle with the capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old. I appeal to every fair-minded man to say whether that objective, as an objective, shows criminal intent. We are entitled to ascertain what is the objective of this organization, the headquarters of which are in Chicago, Illinois, where this pamphlet containing the constitution was printed. Honorable senators will see, therefore, that I am not attempting to hide anything. I maintain that we ought to judge the organization by its constitution as i t stands, and not by the acts of irresponsible individuals belonging to i t . 10168 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Does the honorable senator remember that members of such an organization murdered a lot of policemen in Chicago? 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN Well , does that entitle us to condemn the organization? Would the honorable senator allow us to condemn the Liberal party if one of its members committed murder? 10168 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Members of the Liberal organization would be mutually responsible for the doctrines to which they subscribed, and they would stand condemned if the organization advocated murder to secure its ends.' 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN If a member of a church committed a crime, would that be any justification for the suppression of that church? 10168 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - A church does not incite to crime. 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN n the same reasoning, would we be justified in suppressing a union because its secretary absconded with its funds ? The whole position taken up with regard to this matter is untenable. 10168 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Are you voting against the Bill ? 10168 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN If the honorable senator who interjected would compress his remarks into a speech, he would find i t would then consist of an unintelligible jumble of remarks. He is not going to trap me. I always stand by the position I take up, and I maintain that this B ill , instead of increasing our liberties, will tend to restrict them, i t is a sham and a fraud, designed to snare a certain political party,-but, so far as I am concerned, is will not snare me. Because I believe the principle is wrong, I- intend to vote against it regardless of the cost. My main objection ' to this Bill may be summarized thus: An institution or organization must be judged by its constitution, by its ideals, and- objective, and not by the action of any individual members. I have another objection to the B ill which, -while i t does not -weigh so strongly -with me as the one I have mentioned, is still a fundamental objection, namely, that the Bill will practically mean the abolition of the right of trial by jury, which is one of the most highly-prized heritages that has been handed down to us in the long struggle for freedom. Will any honorable senator advocate the abolition of this privilege? 10169 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - That cuts no ice. 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN The honorable senators who support the Bill .will be caught in their own trap. 10169 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - If the honorable senator happened to be arrested for being drunk and disorderly, would he claim the right for a trial by jury? 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN No , because that is regarded as a venial offence, while, under this Bill, persons charged with crimes of a major character will not have the right of trial by jury. I want to make i t clear that I have no sympathy with such crimes, or with the criminals responsible for them; but I do say that every man is entitled to a fair trial. If a man incites to murder, I would not give him six months, as provided for in this Bill, but I would give him six years. I remind the Senate that, under the Acts Interpretation Act 1904, there is this •provision— Offences against any Act which— are punishable by imprisonment, but not for a period exceeding six months; or not being punishable by imprisonment, are not declared to be indictable offences,. shall, unless the contrary intention appears in the Act, be punishable on summary conviction. This Bill coincides, with. that Act, but there is no provision for an individual charged to claim the right to be tried by a jury of his peers. 10169 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Apparently, the honorable senator has an instinctive dislike of summary conviction. 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN I am not saying that, because I know that under certain circumstances the power of summary conviction is advisable; but why not provide an alternative in this Bill? The measure has been skilfully designed to evade this privilege to the person charged. There is not an offence mentioned in the B ill which could not be dealt with in another way, and so far as i t represents the attempt to deal adequately with the crimes enumerated, i t is so much surplusage, because, as I have already pointed out, every single crime mentioned in the measure co.uld be dealt with in some othe way. There is no necessity at all for the measure, except, as I have indicated, that the Government have in mind an attempt to scare a political party. 10169 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Hundreds of pounds' worth of property have been destroyed and policemen shot down at their desks. Yet you say there is no need for this measure, and that it is aimed at a certain political party. 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN The point of my argument lies in the fact that the men aimed at in this Bill have already been punished, and some of them got as high as fifteen years' imprisonment, while under this Bill they would be punished with six months' imprisonment. 10169 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - But the offences are different. The men were sentenced for having committed certain acts, and this Bill merely aims at persons who incite to crime. 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN The Government had all the necessary power already, if - they wished to exercise i t , to deal with any person inciting to a crime. 10169 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Where? 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN In the War Precautions Act 10169 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - There is no power under the Constitution to deal with these crimes. 10169 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN If my honorable friend's contention is sound, the Government have no right, under this Bill, to go outside the Constitution. If they could do that under the War Precautions Act they could change the constitutional system of government entirely, which is a monstrous thing. In my objections to the B ill , I deny the right of the Government to condemn an organization or society so long as its objective and ideals contain nothing improper or illegal. I deny, also, the right of the Government to abolish trial by jury, and because I believe that the Government have sufficient power to deal with this matter, and to deal with, i t more effectively than is proposed in this B ill , I am not going to support any panicky legislation submitted by the Government. I shall vote against the Bill . 10170 2.56 K18 Tasmania 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP . - I would not have spoken upon this measure but for the vehement remarks made by Senator Mullan, and what I might regard as his almost immoral attitude with regard to this matter. He used a peculiar and superficial argument when he asked if a man who belonged to the Liberal party committed a murder, would the Liberal party be held responsible? Undoubtedly the Liberal party would not be responsible, but if we found that members of the Liberal party were continually committing crimes of a special character, that they foregathered at clubs or meeting-houses that were supposed to be occupied by members of a particular party, the Government- and the people of the country would have every right to assume that that party was a particularly dangerous .body, and should be legislated against. We have no grounds for suspicion that our friends of the Labour party, for instance, are per se going to do anything contrary to the principles of law and order upon which society is essentially based. We must remember 'that this organization of the Industrial Workers of the World has its head-quarters in Chicago, and there are very few members of the Senate who are so young as not to remember the doings of the Chicago anarchists, whose propaganda was identical with the propaganda of the Industrial Workers of the World, and who shot down policemen just as an inoffensive policeman was shot down in New South Wales. I do not know what is wrong with the people. ^ A great number of Australians, it seems to me, have a temperament which is most inimical in its manifestations to the best interests and future prospects of the nation. Is there a great outburst of public feeling; is there any great- outburst of feeling on the part of politicians even; is there any large outburst of regret because of the fate of the policeman ? Undoubtedly we regret in a sub-conscious sort of way his death, but we do not find people organizing subscriptions, nor the public declaring as an organized body their regret at the death of the man. But we find in some quarters a most pernicious intention to show sympathy to those who have actually cut off an unfortunate man * in .the prime of his life, and in the execution of his official duty. We want our moral atmosphere cleared. I have sympathy with the innocent relatives of wrong-doers. The other day I read in the Sydney Bulletin a very pathetic article descriptive of this particular trial in New South Wales, and the feelings and emotions of reasoning men were played on to a very great extent. We were told of the painful position of the wives and the children of the prisoners, and no man who is a man cannot but regret that the wives and the children of such criminals have to suffer punishment. But that applies to every wrong-doer. If we allowed our feelings to carry us away, justice would never be administered. I reserve most of my sympathy, not for the wives and the children of the wrong-doers, although I have some sympathy with them if they are innocent, as they probably are; but for the wife and the children of the unfortunate policeman who was shot down by villainous murderers while he was probably performing some official duty at his desk. That is the quarter to which I extend my sympathy. Until the people of Australia clear their heads a little, and assist in clearing the moral atmosphere we shall find a great deal of misdirected sympathy which is almost as dangerous as the overt act of crime. 10170 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell Surely i t is not misdirected sympathy when i t is extended to a woman and children', whatever the husband was. 10170 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP — It is not misdirected, but I reserve most of my sympathy for the man who has been murdered, not for the wife and the children of the murderer. 10170 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Surely they are entitled to sympathy? 10170 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP They are both entitled to sympathy, but there is a great misdirection of emotion in connexion with this matter. That there is a cancer, as the Minister for Works said, which must be cut out before i t grows bigger, is illustrated by the fact that the police in New South Wales, after these men had been condemned by a jury of their countrymen, had to take measures to prevent —wha t ? To prevent a rescue. Let honorable senators stir themselves, and address themselves to the very great problem which confronts them, and which will become very much greater if they do not pass legislation of this description, although it may be found partially ineffective. What are we coming to in Australia when we have petitions presented to secure the reprieve of dastardly, cowardly murderers? What are we coming to when we find sympathy exhibited for incendiaries who have been found guilty of having destroyed hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of valuable property in one of the largest cities of which Australia is in some measure justly proud ? ' What are we coming to if there is in that city a very large volume and force of public opinion so hating law and order that it wishes to see a rescue effected of men who have just been indicted and condemned, after what undoubtedly was a fair trial? What inducement was there in the minds of the Judge and the jury to give the men other than a fair trial? Should the men have been sent to England to be tried? 10171 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - No, to Ballarat. 10171 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP The men received the fairest trial which the Courts of their country could give them in the circumstances. 10171 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - It was the form of trial for which Senator Mullan, was pleading just now-trial by jury. 10171 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP Quit e so. Therefore, the men were condemned by the very form of trial which is not provided for in this Bill, and which Senator Mullan so much lauded. I want to see in Australia what I call a healthy, moral sense in regard to crimes which are absolutely dangerous to the public safety. I am afraid that, notwithstanding all our laudation of our modern progress, we are substantially inferior to our ancestors of two or three centuries ago. I remember reading in one of the standard histories of England of a very much loved magistrate who, in the. seventeenth century, was found foully murdered. He had a very fine reputation. He did not occupy a very prominent position in the administration of justice in his country, but he was regarded as a good citizen, an honest man, a charitable man, and a just magistrate. He was followed "to his grave by dozens of thousands of people, who made every demonstration of grief, and who, in the intervals of exhibiting their grief; uttered imprecations against the undiscovered murderer. That is the sort of sense which I want to see developed in Australia. The people then in their hundreds of thousands showed their sympathy with the murdered magistrate. They were not reserving their sympathy for the murderer when he was to be discovered. I venture to say that with all our progress we are an inferior people to our ancestors if we transfer our sympathy from a murdered man and his relatives to the murderers and their relatives. Some years ago the guillotine had been practically abolished in that fair portion of France which is now under the heel of the German invader, and a gang of ruffians, six or seven in number, traversed the district for some months, and tortured old women in order to discover their little hoards. They murdered right and left, they committed all sorts of crimes, they were iulmTnnTi monsters. They were at length captured, and found guilty, and the people insisted upon their being guillotined. The executioner was brought along, and the long-disused guillotine was erected. The people congregated in thousands, and the recital of what took place fairly warmed my heart. My heart glowed when I read how these honest French country folk cheered as every scoundrel's head was shaved off and fell into the basket. That is the sort of thing which I want to see. I do not wish to see petitions for the reprieve of murderers and a murdered man followed by only his wife and children to the grave. If this organization, although' on the surface it may be perhaps an innocent one in the. opinion of Senator Mullan, is to be the successor of the anarchistic institution which was established in Chicago and resulted ih the deaths of six or seven policemen who were doing their duty, and the members of it, although it may be of the second generation, have been, cleared out of America, and have come here, I welcome this legislation if it will prove to be effective in ridding Australian soil of these inhuman monsters. We do not want them here. One of the main features of the Bill .is, after all, that which provides for deportation. Does Senator Mullan, or any honorable senator who may stand up for the principle of liberty—which . very often, ' under a wrong conception, is allowed to degenerate into licence—wis h to see these men remain here, and to deprive the Government of this country of the power to deport them ? I venture to say that, when he, in his cooler moments, thinks over the matter, he will rejoice that legislation which gives power to the Administration to deal with these characters has been placed on the national statute-book. He touched on one matter which I think is important. I always take up the position in the Senate, as I did in the Tasmanian Parliament, that the legal members of an Administration have placed on their shoulders the responsibility of seeing that an Act of Parliament is not ultra vires. I have a little doubt, although I am a poor layman, as to whether this Bill is strictly one. which will be upheld by the High Court. These inhuman monsters seem to have plenty of money when they 'are found guilty. They can carry cases to the High Court and to the Privy Council. They are not impecunious individuals. The state of society which they so denounce enables them to fight a case with all the paraphernalia of the law. They are able to send legal myrmidons into a Court to uphold their interests. The money comes from somewhere. This derided system of society which they are out to destroy enables them to get plenty of money to waste in this direction. They can, if convicted, carry their case to. the High Court or the Privy Council. The thing which is sought to be done by virtue of this, measure, for which I am going to vote, hoping that it will be effective, can, I think, be effected under the War Precautions Act. If this measure has vitality and legal effect only because of the existence of that Act, why is that fact not mentioned ? It does not seem to be mentioned in the Bill, and I am fearful that when it is passed, and convictions result under its provisions, this very point may be taken by keen legal gentlemen. The Commonwealth and the National Parliament will be made to look very small if we have put on the statute-book a measure which is of no effect. It is admitted, I believe, by the Prime Minister, who is the legal light of the Government, that the Bill is being passed because of the fact that we have the War Precautions Act. If that -Act alone vitalizes the measure, that fact should be stated, I think, and if it is not stated, I venture to affirm that if the Bill is constitutional in other respects, it may be declared unconstitutional by the High Court. 10172 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - Do you not think that, under the War Precautions Act, the Government . could exercise any power which is granted to them in this measure? 10172 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP I think so; but, for all that, I am going to vote for the Bill, for, after all, we have a legal Department, and if that Department makes itself responsible for a measure of this description, it would ill-become me, -as a layman, to vote against it.' I have some little fear in this regard, and before to-day laymen of perhaps greater accomplishments than myself have pointed out in measures introduced with' the sanction of legal ' gentlemen where flaws existed, and those flaws have been declared to exist when cases have been taken before the High Court. As regards the measure itself,- I am quite sure of my moral position. People who are inclined to commit actions which are materially against the public safety, and morally against it in regard to propaganda, should be punished or prevented from exercising their nefarious intent. In another place, I happened to hear one. of the arguments of the Prime Minister in dealing with the Bill, and Senator Keating, if he were here, could, perhaps throw some light on this point. It appears that the English law is very vague. If I were to incite a single individual to commit a -murder, the existing law undoubtedly provides for my substantial punishment, but if I were to make a general incitation, I do not think that I could be prosecuted for anything more .serious than the offence of inciting to a- disturbance of the peace. I believe that this makes general what has hitherto been only particular. That, I understand, is the special virtue insisted upon by gentlemen of legal training as reposing in this measure. I hope that it will prove effective for the legitimate and. honest purposes for which it is designed, and I. intend to vote for it. 10172 3.16 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL .- I shall not detain the Senate very long in dealing with this Bill. When speaking this morning Senator Millen claimed that unionists like myself should condemn, the action of certain men who assaulted the worker in the Small Arms Factory who was doing the best he could at the machine he controlled. It is in connexion with that statement that I have risen to speak on the Bill. So far as the measure itself- is concerned, it is not worth half-an-hour's bother. I do not believe that it will extinguish the organization I desire to see extinguished, which has been an opponent of mine since I have known it, and which has continuously opposed the principles of craft unionism to which I subscribe. I have no sympathy with it, and I have stated that when the members of that organization get in, it is time for me to get out. I assume that I am one of the unionists who, according to Senator Millen, should condemn the action to which he referred. I have been a unionist in Sydney for forty years, and, perhaps, have witnessed more of the progress of unionism in the States than has any other honorable member of the Senate. I know the advantages which the community has derived from the efforts pf unionists, and I am willing at all times to condemn the intimidation of any man. I should like, however, to remind Senator Millen that there is under the common law a means of obtaining justice open to the man to whom he referred. I can scarcely believe that the secretary of a union assaulted this man, because I find it difficult to believe that any man would be such a coward as to permit himself to be assaulted twice without having recourse to the law to punish , those who assaulted him. I can mention a case in point. The secretary of the Typographical Society in Sydney expelled a man from a room who had been expelled from the union. This man sued the union in the Court, and got a verdict for £500. The union appealed, but the High Court upheld the decision. I say that the man who is said to have been assaulted in the Small Arms Factory has open to him the same means of redress that was open to the man who was assaulted by the secretary of the Typographical Society. There is a remedy for action of the kind to which Senator Millen referred, if those who suffer from it care to avail themselves of that remedy. T wish to bring under the notice of the Senate the fact that under clause 5 it is clear that the Bill deals only with the members of an unlawful association. If the members of such an association disband and call themselves by another name, this Bill will not affect them. It will not, for instance, deal with the. I.W.W. man who is a member of the Wharf Labourers Union or the Seamen's Union. It deals with them only while they are members of an unlawful association. I say that it should deal with all alike who are guilty of the offences against which the measure is aimed, including those individuals who have the temerity to interfere with the distribution of foodstuffs of the country in time of war. I direct attention to another anomaly in clause 6 of the Bill, which provides that - Any person, not being a natural-born British subject, born in Australia, who is convicted of an. offence, under either of the last two preceding sections, shall be liable, in addition to the punishment imposed upon him for the offence, and either during or upon the expiration of his term of imprisonment, to be deported from the Commonwealth, pursuant to any order o:i the Attorney-General. What are the Government going to do with those, who commit these offences and who are natural-born British subjects? These men get into the unions, and are really the cause of all the trouble. I do not believe that there are more than half-a-dozen Americans in the Industrial Workers of the World here. The men who cause the trouble are British born and British subjects who are members of that organization. It is not the Australian-born members, or those who have lived in Australia for a number of years, that cause trouble, but chiefly British subjects who have been in the country for only a few years. Punishment under this Bill should be meted out to them in just the same way as to an American. I shall vote for the Bill, because it will do no harm and will do no good. What it is here for I am sure I do not know. Some of my honorable friends say that it has been introduced to trap the Labour party. But I believe that it is here because the great metropolitan journals of Australia have called upon the Government before they retired to do something to deal with the Industrial Workers of the World.. They have done something which is nothing. 10173 3.22 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - Perhaps I should not have risen to speak upon this Bill but for the fact that some honorable senators have said that although the Bill is of no use, they intend to vote for it. I have had some little experience in the Labour movement, and some which Senator McDougall has not had. I have had to deal with the migratory people who travel from one part of the globe to another. It is amongst these men that we find our difficulty. I am a trade unionist of many years, but I have been an active official of a trade union organization since 1884. I have been in every Inter-State strike with which that organization Has been concerned that has taken place so far in Australia. I have taken ah the responsibility attaching to the position I have occupied. 10174 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner —Th e honorable senator has had legislation directed against him, also. 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE That is so. In 1890 a warrant was taken out for my arrest in the State represented by Senator Gardiner, but Providence came to my aid. on that occasion. Sir Henry Parkes, who was then Premier of New South Wales, broke his leg or his arm, and would not sign the warrant. 10174 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - There was a more recent case than that. 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Ther e were two more recent cases than that, but I have always taken the responsibility of the position I have occupied. It was not for inciting to do damage that a warrant was taken out against me; i t was for adherence to the principles of trade unionism. There is not a single provision in this Bill which can have the effect of putting a man into gaol for doing any lawful trade union act. 10174 KTP 0 0 MCKISSOCK, Andrew Senator McKissock - How can we tell that? 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE We can surely read the B ill . Up to 1893 we, as trade unionists, believed in direct action. We had no other remedy for the grievances from which we suffered. New South Wales had certainly prior to that passed an Arbitration Act, but i t was found to be absolutely useless, because i t provided for voluntary arbitration. But after that the trade unions of Australia, from one end of the Commonwealth to the other, demanded that Parliament should legislate to provide that industrial disputes should be settled by other means than by strikes.- Our Parliament passed arbitration laws, and I contend against anything said to the contrary that trade unionism has gained moire during the time these arbitration laws have been in force than i t ever gained by strikes. What has been the result of the disputes that have occurred? I have been at the settlement of many of them. I was congratulated by the Newcastle miners upon the settlement of the afternoon shift question. They presented a lot of other persons with medals, but they gave me their congratulations. But what has happened in almost every one of these disputes has been that these I.W.W. men have come into the union, and have put every obstacle they could in the way in order to prevent a settlement. 10174 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Senator Senior says that they were not in existence then. 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Senator McDougall knows better than that. 10174 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - The Industrial Workers of the World were not then in existence. 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE We have had these people coming here ever since the San Francisco boats have been running to Sydney. They have been pouring .into Sydney all the time. I can remember one incident very vividly, because in connexion with i t I had to clear out. of Sydney as quietly as I could. When the Sonoma was coming across from San Francisco some of these people, who were on board, induced the firemen to refuse to keep up steam. They allowed the steam to go down, and the vessel to drift r t . When they got to Sydney they were arrested. I met them at the police station. I told them that I would do my best to have them let down as easily as possible, and employed solicitors to take up their case. They were sent to gaol, and an agitation was got up in Sydney to secure that the ship should not leave port while those men were in gaol. However, the ship was got away. I had to cable to San Francisco asking the advice of the union there regarding their matter, and they gave me authority to get the ship away so long as union men were employed to do so. The Industrial Workers of the World were defeated in their purpose at that time,' and, because of the threats held out to me, I had to follow the example of one of the representatives of a New South Wales constituency, and get away as quietly as possible. 10174 K3Q 0 0 BUZACOTT, Richard Senator Buzacott - You do not associate his departure with the Industrial Workers of the World? 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE No ; I merely say that I had to adopt the same course and get away as quietly as I could. 10174 K3Q 0 0 BUZACOTT, Richard Senator Buzacott - Do you have any difficulty in getting them to join your union ? 10174 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE Well , some come here from New South Wales, and I know that a couple of Spaniards applied to join the union, who had books from New York. They wanted to join the Seamen's Union, but we had no alliance with them. I find in a miners' magazine, published in Denver, Colorado, that one of the leading trade unionist organizers of America, writing of what has happened in the United States of America in connexion with the Industrial Workers of the World, says— The Industrial Workers of the World has made a record that will not bear the searchlight of investigation. In its early history the Labour movement throughout the country contributed generously towards its maintenance wherever this spurious libel on organized labour launched a campaign for " free speech " or whenever it became involved in a conflict with employers. But the bond fide Labour-movement soon discovered that the Industrial Workers of the World was controlled and dominated by a gang of conspirators who inaugurated strikes and launched campaigns for " free speech" for no other purpose save to enable the official leeches to live in comparative ease on the proceeds that were mulcted from Labour unions whose members had not discovered the hypocrisy and treachery of the official coterie who made " strikes" and " free speech" fights the means by which they collected revenue. That is the statenyentof G. M. O'Neill, a well-known miners' organizer of the western American unions.. The very Labour unions from which they gathered revenue in days of yore to carry on fake campaigns for " free speech" were branded as " scab hatcheries," and the officers of the bond fide Labour organizations became the targets for the slime of characterless reprobates, in whose vocabulary no words could be found, save the slanderous invectives and profane epithets of a " bummery,"— I have endeavoured to ascertain from an American slang dictionary the meaning of this term, but without success. The article continues— whicb, for moral rottenness, would bring the blush of shame to the lowest degenerate of the Bowery. The I.W.W. is doomed and damned, and when the last vestige of its unholy existence has dropped into a dishonoured grave, no member of organized Labour will shed a tear as a tribute to its memory. These words were written by a Labour man, and were published in a Labour newspaper. A succeeding article shows what Labour organization has accomplished in America—tha t i t has succeeded in carrying fifty-nine planks of its platform. I have given honorable senators the testimony of persons in America who have had much more experience of the Industrial Workers of the World than we have, and I earnestly submit that we should attach weight to their judgment. I hope that we shall always keep our unionistic ranks as pure as possible. No matter what may be my political differences with my honorable friends opposite, and notwithstanding that calumny has been directed against me on account of my recent action, nobody can accuse me, during a life's history, of ever having done anything either to retard or injure the cause of unionism, which I have so much at heart. 10175 3.33 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY . - Nobody, I am sure, will utter a word of complaint against the honorable senator who has just resumed his seat as a trade unionist. For many years he has been one Of a powerful Labour organization's most trusted officials. ' But he knows perfectly well that this Bill was bound to create uneasiness in unionistic circles, for the simple reason that it is not many years ago, when those who took a foremost part in endeavouring to secure an improvement in industrial conditions were accused of crimes which they never committed - crimes of which they were, nevertheless, convicted, and for which they served terms of imprisonment. I know that there is an impression abroad that, if it was possible to secure convictions of this character twenty-five years ago, it ought to be , equally possible to. obtain them under the law as it exists today. But I have been informed, as the result of inquiry, that there is no legislation which would enable a man who " advocates or encourages, or incites or instigates to, the taking or endangering of human life, or the destruction or injury of property." to be punished. I well remember - as you, sir, will - the year 1891, when there was a big industrial strike throughout the pastoral districts of Australia. On that occasion quite a number of members of the Shearers Union were arrested and charged with various crimes. Some of them were convicted,, and served terms of imprisonment. Amongst them were some of the most honorable men one could find. They were trusted throughout the entire country. As an evidence of this, I may mention that, at the time of which I speak, the union funds were exhausted, and the men were unable to purchase the necessaries of life. But, despite these facts, those who had the means of providing for their needs unhesitatingly did so. The storekeepers gave them credit to the extent of thousands of pounds by supplying them with provisions and stock; and I am proud" to say that, after the lapse of twelve or eighteen months, there was not a penny-piece owing to any of these storekeepers. This, sir, conclusively proves that they were honorable men. Their leaders were out to alter the conditions which existed, but they were not out to destroy property, although it was frequently stated that they were. I well remember information being transmitted to Brisbane to the effect that some of the shearers were shooting indiscriminately at buildings in which there were a number of people whose lives were thus endangered. This accusation, like a good many others, subsequently proved to be unfounded. News was also received that the unionists had poisoned a tank of water. The city man doubtless associated that piece of intelligence with the poisoning of a tank of water containing perhaps 1,000 gallons, but those who know the back-blocks knew that it referred to an underground tank, which would hold thousands upon thousands of gallons. When this startling bit of news came to hand, a number of us waited upon the Central Office and asked that the police should substantiate the charge by forwarding a sample df the water for analysis. That water, upon being analyzed, was found to contain enough strychnine to prove fatal to any person who drank only a wineglassful of it. But further inquiries revealed that the charge was a put-up job, because it would have taken no less than 10 tons of strychnine to have impregnated the water in the tank to the extent that the water in the bottle had been impregnated. Consequently, the accusation had been made merely for the purpose of- influencing public, opinion. What induced me to believe that there was power under the common law to deal with offences such as are mentioned in this Bill was the recent trial and conviction of certain members of the Industrials! Workers of the World in Western Australia. The charge against these men was " That they had conspired with certain persons in Broken Hill and Sydney to carry into execution an enterprise for raising discontent and disaffection, and promoting ill-will and enmity between different classes of subjects of the King." That is a charge which could be entered anywhere. These men were convicted, and sentenced to two years' imprisonment. 10176 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Was that a common law prosecution? 10176 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY t was a case which was tried before a jury; and I have quoted a charge which was preferred against them. Tt was that circumstance which induced me to think that, under the existing law, there was ample means for proceeding against men who are guilty of any of the offences mentioned in this B ill . If there is not, there certainly ought to be. I speak as one who commenced his career as a public speaker with two plainclothes constables, who were shorthand writers, seated behind him, and the members of various organizations. 10176 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The Government paid the honorable senator a lot more attention than they ever paid me. 10176 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY They probably thought t h a t . I was worth it. Possibly they imagined that there was more danger to be apprehended from me. The instructions issued to these constables was that if any slip was made by a speaker, there was to be a verbatim report of the meeting upon the desk of the Home Secretary on .the following Monday morning. Although none of the men connected with those organizations ever incited any person to crime, they were able to accomplish sufficient by the use of ordinary language to insure the growth of the Labour movement with which I am associated. Senator Millen has said that he believes in trial by jury. I think that everybody else does. But I am informed that this Bill will not dispense with trial by jury—tha t i t will permit of offenders being first tried in a Court of summary jurisdiction. After that has been done, there will still be the right to appeal to another Court. 10176 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - But not to a jury. 10176 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I understand that any of the offences set out in the Bill may be dealt with by a Court of summary jurisdiction, and that the accused may afterwards appeal- to another Court. 10176 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - Only in the case of indictable offences. The honorable senator would not expect a man who had murdered somebody to be tried by a Court of summary jurisdiction. 10176 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY Of course not. He would not be charged with it under this Act. He would be charged with something else altogether. In fact, i t would be an indictable offence, and he would be tried by a jury. The Bill appears to aim, not at those who are committing crime, but at those who are inciting or encouraging other people to commit crime. I understand, after inquiry, that that is the object and intention of the Bill. There is an idea in some quarters that there has been, or is, some connexion between the ordinary trade union organizations that have been established for many years, and have had a good deal to do with improving the conditions of labour in Australia, and this particular organization. All sorts of statements have appeared in the public press from men connected with this organization. I shall not quote . them, but in order to show that there has been no sort of connexion either, now or for some considerable time between the two, I shall quote the opinions expressed by men in public life who have been at the head of industrial organizations—opinion s which have been indorsed by nearly every unionist in Australia. They put the case for the organizations better than I can put i t myself. There was issued in Brisbane a placard or sticker, which is a small piece of paper with printing on i t , and gummed on the back so that i t may be stuck on doors or windows. A copy of i t was attached to the doors of a number of banks and other institutions. It read as follows: — "Slow down; the hours are long, the pay is small; hut take your time and buck them all. I.W.W. print." This was brought in July last under the notice of Mr. Theodore, the State Treasurer. He was President of the Queensland branch of the Australian Workers Union for a number of years. He had been a miner, and had worked in other occupations in North Queensland, and spoke as follows: His attention had been called to' the fact that small posters had been stuck up in various places of employment in the city counselling the workers to slow down. " This." he said, " is evidently part of the pernicious propaganda of the I.W.W.—the Industrial Workers of the World. The Industrial Workers of the World," he added, " is a band of irreconcilables who stand for direct action in industrial matters, and who will have, nothing to do with industrial arbitration, or any kind of legislation for the betterment of the conditions of the workers. They think the workers can get no reforms unless a war of hatred is being constantly waged between the employers and employees. Their doctrine, as applied to Australia, is downright anarchy. It is against all order and regulated systems; it is more ruinously antagonistic to industrial arbitration and the principles of unionism than the opposition of the capitalists'ever could hope to be. It is practically destructive of all the good for which the Labour movement stands. The Industrial Workers of the World - i t preaches a- doctrine that was promulgated in a country where the industrial workers are ground under the iron heel, of capitalism, where the worker has no liberty and very few rights, where he has no political representation, no arbitration, and no advanced legislation of any kind, and where, when a dispute occurs between wealthy corporations and employees, armed strike-breakers and gunmen are called out, and the places of the workers filled with blacklegs. In such a country the policy of the Industrial Workers of the World, may be justified; it'may be-the only means which the worker has to get redress. But in Australia there is not a shred noT shadow of justification for such a policy. Here the workers had full liberty'to organize in order to secure their rights. They have political representation, and not only that, but they have complete control of the political machine. Parties of their own making are in power in the Commonwealth and State Parliaments; the platforms they have drafted are being translated into Statutes, and their own ideas of industrial legislation are being carried into effect. It would be nothing short of rank lunacy for the workers to discard these advantages and adopt the illogical, unreasonable, and stupid stratagems of the Industrial Workers of the World. I believe that every person in Queensland who, in the present circumstances, incites his fellow-workers to adopt any of the phases of sabotage is an enemy of unionism, and a curse to the country, and should be treated as an industrial pariah, and not allowed into the ranks of intelligent unionism. The Labour movement has fought too long, and has suffered too much, to permit its present position to be jeopardized by irresponsible adventurers, who, I fear, are endeavouring to sow the seeds in Australia of a hurtful propaganda, wholly unnecessary and unsuited to this country, and calculated to divert industrial unionism from its true object, and to bring disruption into its ranks. 10177 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then Mr. Theodore is not against the methods of the 'Industrial Workers of the World because they are wrong, but because they are inexpedient in Australia? 10177 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY He points out that however necessary they may be in the country where these ideas were first promulgated there is no necessity for anything of the sort in a country where every one is free to organize and have a say in political affairs. In a country where no liberty i3 allowed, if you prosecute people who organize with the object of securing some form of liberty, you simply drive the organization underground, and its members will often resort to measures which in a freer country would become unnecessary. • For instance, the men known as the Dorsetshire labourers were endeavouring in 1837 to alter their conditions. At that time the wages for married men were 8s. a week. They had succeeded in raising the wages to 10s. They were arrested because of the action they had taken. It was said that they were dangerous to society for wanting to get such an enormous wage for a married man. They were convicted and sentenced to imprisonment at Botany Bay. They came out to this country, but an agitation was begun, in England, because i t was believed that the sentences were too severe. Before their time was up they Were liberated and allowed to return. This was in the early days of Methodism, and three of them were taking the pulpit on behalf of that new movement. The result has been that four years ago a monument was erected to the memory of every one of them, and some most prominent people in England journeyed from London and elsewhere to mark their respect for them when the monument was unveiled. That incident shows that, in a country where there is no possibility of obtaining reform by the ordinary methods in use in Australia, people will resort to other methods, which, to them, seem perfectly right and justifiable. It was because Mr. Theodore couched these ideas in better language than I could command that I quoted his speech. 10178 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - Have the unions taken his advice by keeping these people out? " . 10178 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY How are you going to keep men out ? A man may be a member of the Industrial Workers of the World, but very few people know i t . It is easy to buy a fight, if the honorable senator is looking for one, by going to some of the prominent union officials and telling them they are members of the In dustrial Workers of the World. I have been under the impression on numerous occasions when talking to people I have known, that, on account of the manner and methods in which they expressed their opinions, they were associated with that organization, but in every case, when I inquired, the organization has been repudiated. They have said, " I have never had anything to do with i t , and do not believe in i t . " If the honorable senator goes to any of the organizations at the Trades Halls, or anywhere else, and asks the officials, I am satisfied that he will find that not one of them is a member of the organization. If a man goes to the Bricklayers Union and says he is a bricklayer, he may be able to present his indentures. If he does so, and pays his money, they never think of asking him if he is a member of the Industrial Workers of the World or anything else. They do not make inquiries as to his religion. All they want to do is to make sure, if possible, that he is a tradesman. If he is, and there is nothing known against his character, they allow him in . 10178 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - Then you do not believe in what you are putting before the Senate, and what Mr. Theodore told you to do ? 10178 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY I do believe in i t ; but no organization that I know of asks men, when nominated for membership, whether they belong to the Industrial Workers of the the World or not. In my opinion, there are comparatively few members of that body in Queensland. I do not know that they have a branch there at all, but I believe there is a number of people who are influenced by the doctrines which some members of that body have preached, and who, on occasions, have subscribed money when appealed to. I shall vote for the B ill . I do not believe we shall get a great deal out of i t , but if the Government say i t is necessary to prevent people inciting others to commit crime, the best thing we can do is to give the Government the power, and see what use they will make of i t . 10178 4.0 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - In reply to the remarks made by Senator Shannon, I want to point out that it is not so easy, in these days of trade unionism, to take exception to the political views of any particular member, and, for that reason, there is a great deal of difficulty in keeping men who subscribe to Industrial Workers of the World views out of our organizations. But certain precautions may be taken to keep the Labour movement clean, and, so far as possible, that is done. While we may admit some of these men as members, there is no reason why they should be allowed .to take a prominent part in the management of a union or exert any influence upon its policy. To-day I instanced the case of a well-known I.W.W. man, who may be heard at a Yarra bank meeting almost any Sunday. Hitherto I regarded his sentiments as so much twaddle, and until recently I never dreamed there was any force behind them. I stated, by interjection while one honorable senator was speaking, that that particular member of the Industrial Workers of the World had been prominent in endeavouring to drive "the Prime Minister out of the Waterside Workers Federation,, an organization which he had practically built up. 10179 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon They appear to be getting a good hold of the unions. 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Undoubtedly their influence is increasing, and when we see men of this kind getting drafted into the trade unions of the country, it behoves us to take strong measures to keep them in their places. I mention this to show the power that these individuals are exerting in our trade unions, which are legal organizations, depending upon the arbitration principle for the redress of grievances. We find these men going even further than thajt. I do not wish to mention names, but, at a time like this, we are entitled to speak plainly ; and I say that we even find men holding I.W.W. views being selected as candidates for the Federal Parliament. These are things that we have a right to look into when considering whether the Bill before the Senate is too drastic or not'. In my opinion, i t is not too drastic. 10179 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Does the honorable senator mean to say that men who are avowedly members of the Industrial Workers of the World, are being selected as candidates for the Federal Parliament? 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I know of one instance, at all events, in which the selected Labour candidate to one of the seats of the Federal Parliament was, a few short years ago, an advocate of I.W.W. principles, declaring that the right sort of trade unionism was direct action. 10179 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - Was he advocating sabotage ? 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE —He was advocating I.W.W.-ism, whatever that might mean 10179 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - What do you say it means ? 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE What does it mean? This man was advocating the principles of that organization. I am not new in this business. I have met the men before, have debated the question with them, and I know that the moment they are driven into a corner they endeavour to evade any responsibility for the position they find themselves in. I can well remember, on one occasion, going to the rendezvous of the Socialists in Melbourne, and taking as the text for an address, "Revolution or Reform." During my remarks, I took the attitude of the Labour party of Australia, which stands for reform, with arbitration as the means of securing improvements in social conditions, as against the doctrines of the members of the Industrial Workers of the World. At the close, of my address, so many of the audience were ready to debate with me that at one time I thought I would be fortunate if I got out of the hall safely. I never thought until that night that, there were so many champions of I.W.W. ism in Australia. 10179 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - I want to . know if you are prepared to believe that the Labour organization you refer to would knowingly select as a candidate a man who was an avowed destructionist, and practised sabotage ? 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I cannot say what the Labour organization knows, and I am not responsible for its knowledge concerning that individual; but Senator Watson knows him, and he ought to be acquainted with his political views. Perhaps he does know them, as well as, or even better than, I do. 10179 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - You know very well that, if a selected Labour candidate is . openly and avowedly a destructionist, he would be bound to lose his nomination. 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Will Senator Watson contradict what I have said ? Will he dare to tell the Senate that he does not know'that that man, a few years ago, was an active member of the Industrial Workers of the World, and preached its doctrine? 10179 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - I do know that no selected Labour candidate is a recognised member of the Industrial. Workers of the World. 10179 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE What does the honorable senator mean by the man not being a " recognised " member of the Industrial Workers of the World ? I say thafc this man—whethe r he paid his contribution of membership or not I do not know—advocate d the principles of the In dustrial Workers of the World a few years ago, and Senator Watson knows that as well as I do. 10180 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - The honorable senator is trying to connect the Labour movement with sabotage. 10180 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I am doing nothing of the kind. 10180 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - That is exactly what the honorable senator is trying to do. 10180 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE But for the fact that the Standing Orders prevent me I would reply t o that interjection in a most effective manner. The honorable senator is trying to wriggle over this matter. 10180 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - I am not trying to wriggle at all, but I want you to declare yourself, and you are- not prepared to do that. 10180 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Well, what is the all the trouble about? 10180 070E 0 0 WATSON, David Senator Watson - You know. You are trying to connect the Labour movement with the Industrial Workers of the World principles. 10180 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE Again I say that the Standing Orders prevent me from replying to the honorable senator in the only effective manner. Until within the last twelve months I never dreamt that there was any real "business" behind the threats of the Industrial Workers of the WorTd, and even when Senator Lynch showed me a letter which he had received from a man who formerly belonged to the Labour movement in Western Australia, threatening the destruction of his farm, I did not think that anything serious was meant. I said so at the time, and I really believe that Senator Lynch was inclined to that view also. 10180 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator Maughan - They have been blackguarding the Labour members in the Queensland Parliament for the last six or seven years. 10180 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE — I am aware that members of the Labour party have been abused, but they have been so criticised by people other than members of the Industrial Workers of the World, notably at Socialistic gatherings in Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, and, I suppose, Brisbane as well. We are i accustomed to that criticism, but I am referring particularly to the threat of physical force contained in the letter sent to Senator Lynch. I can" quite conceive that, under certain circumstances, an association of this kind might be justifiable, because we must remember that morality is very much a matter of geography. A great deal depends upon what part of the world one may be living in. If , for instance, I had lived in Russia a few years ago, very probably I would have believed in the application of physical force there in order to bring about reform, because i t seems that social improvements can only be achieved by physical force in some countries, and at a certain stage in their history. But Australia is the freest Democracy on the face of God's earth, so what necessity can there be for the doctrine of force here, where all the people enjoy the franchise, and where the richest man in the community has ho more power than the poorest? In circumstances such as these, no man, surely, would incite to violence, except, perhaps, to gratify his own personal vanity. That is how I treated the Industrial Workers of the World threats until recently; but when we find that its members have gone so far as to send through the. post letters such as that addressed to Senator Lynch, I think it is time the. Parliament of Australia took measures to safeguard its citizens. The letter to which I refer was addressed thus— Dear Senator, Tom Barker, of the Industrial Workers of the ' World, Sydney, has nine months' hard hanging over his head. If Barker goes up, then we will sabotage the master class all over Australia. All the Labour politicians are capitalists, consequently we will not hesitate -to sabotage the Labour politicians. If you wish to save your farm at Three Springs, see that Tom Barker is released at once. Be sure and show this note to all the other members of the Labour party. Remember your class, the capitalist class, have everything to lose; we workers have only our change. Don't forget. Release Tom Barker, or - sabotage. I must confess that when I read that letter I could only smile. I did not dream that there was anything but bluff behind it. In order to understand a little about what sabotage really is, or to get instruction from the apostles of that creed, I looked up a work written by a sympathetic supporter of, and believer in, the policy, a Frenchman named Emile Pouget. 10180 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe —D o you mean sympathetic to the Labour party, because you are trying to create the idea all the time? 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE That remark is utterly false when i t is applied to me. 10181 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - You tried to create it at the outset of your speech. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE No 10181 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Do you mean that the man whom you are going to quote is sympathetic to the Labour policy? 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I aid not say anything p f the sort, for the simple reason that I do not know his views. 10181 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - I maybe wrong, but I understood you to say that the writer of the book was sympathetic to the views of the Labour party. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I said that he was sympathetic to the principle o sabotage, not to the Australian Labour policy. I do 'not know whether he has1 ever written on the latter question. This book waa copyrighted in 1913, and taken into our Parliamentary Library in May, 1916. Certainly, the writer does not strain his definitions. He does not put the more brutal aspect of the question. He puts i t in its mildest possible form. He is really apologizing all through this work for the tactics of those who believe in sabotage. He states the matter very concisely in the following words: What, then, is sabotage?—Sabotag e is: " Any conscious and wilful act on the part of one or more workers intended to slacken and reduce the output of production in the industrial field, or to restrict trade and reduce the profits in the commercial field, in order to secure from their employers better conditions or to enforce those promised or maintain those already prevailing, When no other way of redress is open." If that was the policy which was being followed by the Industrial Workers of the World, I could forgive them to some extent, especially in countries where strikes and locks-out are the only methods of settling industrial disputes. I think that they are going too far for us in Australia, where we have adopted the peaceful method of arbitration; a policy of violence is quite out of place. When letters such as I have quoted 'from the newspapers are received threatening to burn down a man's farm, that is a crime which we in Australia should not tolerate for a moment. I know something about the life of the poor fellows who go ont to the margin of civilization before they can get land. When men go out there and work like galley slaves every hour of the day, live practically on the coarsest possible food which can sustain them, and reside in whatever kind of ramshackle they can erect for the time being, when they work year after year until they are able to produce a crop, under such conditions a man who would come along and burn down a crop is a great' deal more brutal, and, for my v part, I would give him less quarter, than a man who would come and shoot him straight away. A man commits a much more brutal crime in burning out an individual than he does in shooting him. 10181 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - If a man does that he deserves hanging. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE He does 10181 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - Not only that, but a favorable breeze would sweep the whole country side. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I think that when honorable senators are brought face to face with the actual work of these in dividuals, they will see that this measure is not a bit too strong or drastic. No one can say that i t has been brought forward too soon. 10181 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - The only fault is that it is not drastic enough. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE If it is not sufficiently drastic, I am quite prepared to amend the Bill to catch creatures of that kind. They should receive no mercy, and find no place in Australian society. I feel quite sure that working men of Australia who realize the true. position have no time or sympathy for such individuals. The latter may be listened to in a good-humoured way on the Yarra-bank, or in thc Sydney Domain, when they are letting off superfluous steam, and talking nonsense. But when i t comes to a matter of real, down-right common sense, I am satisfied that neither the trade union movement, nor the working class, nor any . other class will support such things. 10181 4.18 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE . - I had no intention of speaking to this measure, because I understood that it was the unanimous desire to conclude the business as soon as possible, but from the fact that Senator de Largie, the Government Whip, has taken some time to speak on the question - and he was quite within his rights - I take it that the Government are not in a great hurry. 10181 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator De Largie There is plenty of time 10181 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE The chief reason why I desire to say a few words is that Senator des Largie, at the outset of his remarks-^-whether he did i t wilfully and intentionally or not I do not know—sai d that a certain Labour candidate had been selected who is a member of the ' In dustrial Workers of the World. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - I did not say that he is a member of the Industrial Workers of the World. I said that he has advocated I.W.W. principles. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE Well , the honorable senator said that1 a man who advocated I.W.W. principles has been selected as a candidate, I take it, for the next Federal elections. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - That is quite true. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE When the honorable senator's words go forth to the public they can leave only one impression, and that is that those Labour men who are in charge of the selection of candidates for the Federal elections do not care two straws as to the class of men whom they select. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - I did not say that. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE That they do not care whether they select a man who is in favour of I.W.W. methods, as they are put before us to-day. Whether the honorable senator wanted to leave that impression in the minds of the public I do not know. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - What I said is perfectly true, all the same. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE Do you say i t is perfectly true that those who, to-day, control the selection of Labour candidates for the next Federal elections would knowingly select a man who is advocating, or has advocated, I.W.W. methods? 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - I am not going to allow you to put words into my mouth. What I said is true. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE What do you say? 10182 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order ! This cross-examination is out of order. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE I only want to get this matter cleared up. The honorable senator has made a statement which undoubtedly is calculated to do a great deal of harm to the Labour party. Whether' he made the statement wilfully with that intention I do not know. I should be sorry to think that he would, but there is the statement. 10182 K5V 0 0 SHANNON, John Senator Shannon - Might not that happen without an organization knowing it? 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE Senator de Largie did not say that. He did not attempt, when he was questioned by interjections, to say that i t might happen without the organization knowing i t . After he was met with interjections he went on to say that some two or three years ago he was in conversation with a man who was openly advocating the principles of I.W.W.-ism. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Quite true. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE The honorable senator was asked by interjection to say what were the principles of I.W.W.-ism, because later in his speech he admitted that he himself did not know what was behind I.W.W.-ism in those times. By inference he admitted that he himself 'did not know when he was discussing the question with the man that I.W.W. principles stood for what they have evidently been standing for recently. If that is so, where comes in the fairness of trying to associate in the remotest way the Labour party with the fact that a man who three or four years ago advocated I.W.W. principles, has today been selected as a candidate. A man might have advocated I.W.W. principles three or four years ago, but those principles, as they were known to that man, might have been absolutely different from the principles which are known to us today. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - How do you know that? 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE I do not know i t . When one hears speeches made in this way, one cannot get away from the idea that the chief intention of the speakers is to discredit the Australian Labour party because i t has something to do with the methods or principles of the Industrial Workers of the World. 10182 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - I will not run away from what I have said. 10182 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE For my part I give such statements an absolute and unqualified denial. Here i t has been said to-day, and truly said, that only a fortnight ago a body representative of the whole Labour movement of Australia unanimously entered an emphatic protest against the attempt made during the conscription campaign by Mr,- Hughes and other conscriptionists to associate the Labour-party with the methods and principles of the Industrial Workers of the World. In the face of that fact, what further denial should be required by men who want to be fair? I am going to support every line of this Bill. I can see nothing in the Bill which is likely to be detrimental to any organization or any individual member of any organization in Australia. Some honorable senators are inclined to be a little suspicious as to the way in which things are moving to-day. They fear that genuine and legitimate trade unionism in Australia may suffer under the. regulations which will be made under this measure,. with the present Government in power. I entertain no fear of that kind, because I do not think that there exists to-day in Australia any man or any body of men, or any political party who would dare to attempt to interfere with legitimate trade unionism, under the guise or protection of this Bill. Let them try i t on, and they will find out quickly that they will get an answer from the people of Australia. There can be no denying the fact that from the moment this Bill was introduced into another House the whole of the discussion was pointed in one direction. It is well worth while to read the debate from beginning to'end. Not only in the speech made by the Prime Minister, but ih the speeches made by Mr. Cook, Mr. Sinclair and others, an attempt was made to associate the Australian Labour party with the Industrial Workers of the World, as i t is known, and known in repugnance by all Australian people today by reason of its late actions, for which a number of its members were found guilty in Sydney and sentenced. Those who have done this know that ever since a few of these men blew in from the four corners of the earth and settled in the large cities of Australia, they have proved themselves to be the bitterest opponents . of the selected candidates . of Labour organizations. That is known to be a fact. 10183 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - Some of them have got into leading positions in the unions. 10183 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE — In spite of this fact, we have interjections and speeches intended to associate the Australian Labour party with the Industrial Workers of the World, but these charges will all fall flat upon the ears of the fair-minded' people of Australia. Honorable senators have only to look at the leading article in the Age of to-day to see a deliberate attempt to belittle the Labour party because of certain statements made by Mr. Tudor in another place. Those statements, if carefully read, show that Mr. Tudor repudiated the methods of this organization, with the same horror as does every other member of the Labour party. 10183 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT The honorable senator is not entitled to allude to the debates of another ,place. He has been doing so for some considerable time, .and I have allowed him a great deal of latitude before intervening. 10183 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE I bow, sir, to your ruling, and am sorry that I transgressed. I shall not be out of order if I quote something from the leading article of the Age, which is one of the most contemptible pieces of unfair writing that ever disgraced the columns of a leading newspaper of Australia. I quote from the last paragraph of the leader— The attitude of the Official Labour party to the measure, as revealed by Mr. Tudor's speech, should go far towards putting that party in the place it ought to occupy in public estimation. The article is on the Industrial Workers of the World, and the Bill brought in by the Government to suppress i t . It goes on to say— Mr. Tudor frankly admits that he regards the I.W.W. as a " disease.' " I am absolutely opposed to all their methods," he declared; and he categorically asserted (he appeared to think .it necessary) that he is not in, favour ,of the " go-slow" policy, of sabotage, of, arson, or of murder. In a word,'Mr. Tudor, as Leader of the Official Labour party, invited the House to believe that neither he nor his party has any sympathy with criminals. But, although the I.W.W. is' a " disease," and despite the fact that " I am absolutely opposed to all their methods." Mr. Tudor is strongly opposed to the measure., which aspires to cure the "disease" and to eliminate the methods that he detests. Mr. Tudor is nothing of the kind. He said he was not opposed to the measure, though he criticised i t , as he had the right to do in common with every member of this Parliament. But this article will be read by 200,000 or 300,000 people in this Stabs, and i t deliberately brands Mr. Tudor and his party as opposed to this measure which would cure the disease. The article continues— Mr. Tudor objects to the Bill for two reasons. He thinks i t unnecessary; and he " feels sure the Bill will be used on trades unions as well as on the I.W.W." Mr. Cook subsequently stigmatized Mr. Tudor's second reason as an ins.nlt tn the whole body of trades unionists. Inasmuch as it implies that trades unionists generally are liable to be dealt with under the measure, Mr. Tudor's remarks do fasten a bitter and undeserved insult on the class he pretends to represent. Mr. Tudor, however, and his party are daily furnishing stronger evidence that they do not really represent trades unionism. Their allegiance is due neither to the nation nor to organized Labour as a whole. In the truest sense they represent only the small body of officials which of late has insinuated itself into control of the Labour political machine. From these officials Mr. Tudor and his followers take their orders, and their custom is to obey such orders blindly, whatever they may be. 10184 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - It is worth, noting that while the honorable senator has quoted the article as misrepresenting Mr. Tudor, if he turns to the next column of the same newspaper he will find an even bigger lie told in the interests of Mr. Tudor. 10184 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE I do not know to what Senator Russell refers. 10184 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - I shall mention the matter on the adjournment. 10184 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE For what reason was this Bill introduced. It is claimed that i t was introduced with the worthy object to suppress crime, and to give the Government the power to deal with such associations as the Industrial Workers of the World, and root out a disease. If the necessary power does not exist under State legislation, and it is claimed in some quarters that i t does, I am still willing to make assurance doubly sure by passing this measure to give the Government the powers asked for by the Prime Minister. 10184 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - If the Bill applied to any genuine trade union, I should not be found supporting it. 10184 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE A t the same time there is no getting away from the fact that certain members of this Parliament opposed to the Labour party have attempted through their powerful newspaper organs to discredit that party because members of i t have exercised their right to criticise certain details of this measure. There may be one or two who are entirely opposed to the Bill. I believe that Senator Mullan has said that he does not like it, and that one or two honorable members in another place said that they would not support i t. The fact remains that an overwhelming majority of the members of the party in both Houses of this Parliament have declared that they are not opposed to the Bill, though they have taken occasion to criticise some of its details. After the explanations that have been given, i t is impossible for any fair-minded man to any longer try to associate the Australian Labour party with such an organization as the Industrial Workers of the World. It was done in terms of opprobrium during the referendum campaign, which still rankle in the minds of Mr. Hughes' old friends, and which were the cause of much of the bitterness that was introduced into that campaign. When men read every day, in reports of speeches by Mr. Hughes and other leaders in the conscription campaign, that they were trying to associate them and their movements with the I.W.W. principles and methods, i t is not surprising that they bitterly resented i t . There could be no connexion between them. I do not profess to know the exact constitution of the Industrial Workers of the World. I can judge of i t only by what I have learned of recent proceedings, in which members of the organization have been concerned. I read every word of the evidence taken in the cases that were recently heard in Sydney, and it left in my mind the impression that the men were guilty of the acts with which they were charged, that they were leaders of the Industrial Workers of the World, and that, possibly, members of the organization, who are not so prominent, are to be found in every State in Australia. On the facts adduced in Court, upon which men were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment, I have formed my judgment of the principles and methods of the organization, and I assert that i t is on an absolutely different plane from any political organization hitherto known in* Australia. The Australian Labour party stands for progress under the law by lawful methods. The Industrial Workers of the World stand for direct action. They would win through to their ideals, not by keeping, hut by breaking, the laws of the country. We stand to win through to our ideals by keeping the laws framed by the selected representatives of the people of Australia. That is the only basis upon which a true Democracy can be safely built up. The only true basis for good laws is that they shall be framed by selected representatives of the people, and when they have been so framed, they must be faithfully kept by the people for whom they have been made. From all that I can learn, the members of the Industrial Workers of the World are absolutely opposed to these ideals. They would achieve their ends, not by keeping, but by breaking, the laws of the country, and . i t is not merely the height of absurdity, but it is a wicked 'thing, for any man or newspaper to try to put the brand of I.W.W. criminality on the brow of the Australian Labour party. Yet that is what has been attempted very many times lately. Whether that was the object in the introduction of this B ill , I neither know nor care. I shall vote for the B ill , as I have said, to make assurance doubly sure that there shall be power to deal with such organizations as the Industrial Workers of the World. I do not believe that any trade union organization in. Australia is likely to suffer from the passage of the measure, for the best of all reasons—tha t there is no body of men in the Commonwealth who dare to penalize legitimate unionism under such a measure as this 10185 4.43 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH . - I shall not take up much time in replying to the debate. I wish to say that I appreciate the way in which the Bill has been received by the Senate. We have been told by some honorable senators that the measure overshoots the mark, and by others that it falls far short of the mark. It would appear, therefore, that it must about hit the bull's-eye. Senator McDougall supports the Bill because he thinks it can do neither good nor harm; whilst Senator O'Keefe has just said that he supports it because it will root out the disease. 10185 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe — I was quoting from the Age when I said that it would root out the disease. 10185 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH —Th e honorable senator was positive in his admission that the Bill would result in rooting out the disease. 10185 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - Nothing of the kind. 10185 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH When we have such testimony from the Labour Opposition, we are justified in concluding that the Bill will meet present requirements, and provide a means to stamp out a most unwholesome development that has recently appeared in our industrial life.' I regret that some honorable senators have gone out of their way to associate the introduction of this Bill with an effort to place the Official Labour party in an unfavorable light. I may tell honorable senators that, when this Bill Was being drafted, there was no such thing in the minds of the Government as the existence of the Official Labour party. We were determined upon doing something to meet a need that did not arise yesterday. When we drafted the measure, we knew, as events have proved., that we would have the support of the Official Labour party in this Parliament. In the circumstances, of what use is i t to say, quite gratuitously, that we are engaged in an effort to place our temporary opponents in a false position? Honorable senators should be able to debate measures of this kind without imputing improper motives to the Government. I resent some of the opening remarks made by Senator. Gardiner, in which he said that the Bill was deliberately introduced to associate his party with the Industrial Workers of the World. I can only say. that he was amply replied to by his own followers. Senator McDougall in the course of his remarks declared that the Bill will do no harm, and that it will accomplish no good, "and consequently he intended to support i t . Surely i t is very singular that a harmless instrument is to be the means of placing his own party in an unfavorable light. It will be seen, therefore, that some honorable senators have been indulging in the delightful pastime of contradicting each other in regard to this B ill. Senator Mullan went out of his way to affirm that the Bill is a piece of bluff. What he meant by that I do not know. He then proceeded to say that it would practically abolish trial by jury, notwithstanding that the testimony of members of his own party is that, not only is i t a necessary, but i t is a justifiable measure. Criticisms of this kind are like microbes in a septic tank— they are mutually destructive. As far as the technical objections to the Bill are concerned, Senator Millen stated that the proposal to impose on a person who threatened life the same penalty as would be imposed upon a person who threatened property was an ill-balanced one. Viewed in a strictly rational light, I admit that i t does appear a rather inequitable proposition. But I would point out that although the maximum penalty in both cases is siix months' imprisonment there is nothing to prevent that penalty being inflicted in the case of a person who is guilty of the greater offence, and of a lesser sentence being imposed in the case of a person who is guilty of the lesser offence. It must also be remembered that this Bill deals only with an incipient form of crime, and that the person who incites another to take life, has a severer punishment awaiting him after the crime has been committed. The measure does not deal with the committal of any crime. To my mind i t fills a present-day want. I understood Senator Mullan to say that the law as i t stands is quite sufficient to cope with the evils that have arisen in connexion with the Industrial Workers of the World. I am not a lawyer, but the best legal authorities have assured us that i t is not sufficient. 10186 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan No t under the War Precautions Act? 10185 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH No . The best advice that we have is that this measure will not only strengthen the existing law, but will, to a large extent, supplement i t . I shall now direct attention to a statement made by Mr. Groom in the public press. Speaking of this Bill he said— It was uot a new law, as it was now the basis of society. The Bill carried the law further than it existed in the various States. When persons who, in their propaganda work, incited people to destroy life or property, they should be liable to punishment. The State laws did not deal with this aspect of the case, which the Prime Minister had found i t necessary to provide for. It had been abundantly shown t>y the Prime Minister that day that there was ample justification for the Bill. There was no law in the Commonwealth that provided punishment for the incitation to the destruction of life or property. That opinion, reinforcing the legal opinion which is already in possession of the Commonwealth, evidences that the Bill is necessary to supplement the law as i t stands to-day. In conclusion, I feel that the presence of the measure on the statute-book will have a salutary effect. The men who have run their wild and giddy course in Australia will, by reason of the fact that society has proclaimed its determination not to be trodden upon, know that unless they reform their ways, only the criminal dock awaits them. I am pleased that honorable senators have received the Bill so well. I do not anticipate that there will be any unnecessary delay in passing i t , and I do hope that those misguided persons with whom i t is specially intended to deal, will so remodel their conduct as to become entitled to be members of a free Democracy, instead of being wreckers of i t . Question resolved in the affirmative Bill read a second time In Committee: Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2 - This Act shall continue in force for the duration of the present war, and a period of six months thereafter, but no longer. 10186 4.56 KVH Queensland 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN . - Seeing that this measure is intended to suppress crime, I should like to know why it is to be limited to the period of the war, and six months thereafter? 10186 4.57 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH .- This Bill has its origin in the defence powers of the Commonwealth, and, as the honorable senator will observe, it is mainly intended to deal with offences which are likely to be committed during the currency of the war. We believe that on the termination of the war the necessity for such a Bill will largely disappear. Clause agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to. Clause 5 - Whoever, being a member of an unlawful association, advocates or encourages, or incites or instigates to, any action intended or calculated to prevent or hinder the production, manufacture, or transport, for purposes connected with the war, of troops, arms, munitions, or warlike- material, including foodstuffs, shall be guilty of an offence....... 10186 4.58 KVH Queensland 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN . - I wish to know whether the inciting to, or encouragement of, the acts set out in this clause will be limited strictly to members of an unlawful association. 10186 4.59 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH . - The clause in its literal sense applies only to members of unlawful associations. The presumption is that only such persons will be guilty of these crimes, and if there are men guilty of them who do not belong to such associations, they can be dealt with under the ordinary law. 10186 5.0 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - The very fact that a person who is a member of an unlawful association is directly indicated as being liable to six months' imprisonment if guilty of any of these acts conveys the idea that any person' who is not a member of an association is not liable to imprisonment if he does any of those acts, and cannot be prosecuted under the scope of this Bill. 10186 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie Because this is an unlawful associations B ill 10186 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER The point deserves the serious consideration of the Government, because there has apparently been a serious omission by them. Senator Guthrie's argument may be an excellent reason for enlarging the scope of the Bill, but i t is not a good reason for leaving it as i t is. The Government could just as easily have got a comprehensive measure through Parliament that would have saved them the trouble of issuing war precautions regulations to deal with these things, as a Bill to deal with one particular association. It is quite possible that in the hasty drafting of the measure the wider aspect of the matter escaped observation. The clause cannot be read in conjunction with clause 4, because that deals with a different question. Why an act should be a crime or misdemeanour when committed by a man belonging to an unlawful association and not when committed by a man who does not belong to an unlawful association, I am quite unable to understand. The Minister did not make the point much clearer when he replied to Senator Mullan. 10187 5.5 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - The Bill is quite comprehensive enough in its scope, and will pretty well meet the case as I see it. At the same time, if honorable senators opposite feel that it is not sufficiently comprehensive, and that individual criminals may escape, I am prepared to help them to draw the net even closer. 10187 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan —Wh y not let us introduce our own Bill instead of patching up yours ? 10187 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE I recommend to the honorable senator the motto, " Do it now." If we let this opportunity of amending the B ill pass, we may not get another for some considerable time. Al l that is necessary is to strike out the word " unlawful." In Australia most men belong to one association or another, and very few would escape the provisions of the clause. If Senator Gardiner or Senator Mullan desires the help of the Government to bring about that amendment I think I can promise i t to them. 10187 5.7 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - The. point raised by Senator Mullan is very strong, sound, and valid. Clause 4, which we have just passed, reads - Whoever advocates or encourages, or incites or instigates to the taking or endangering of human life, or the destruction or injuring of property shall be guilty of an offence. We might well bring clause 5 into conformity with clause 4 by striking out the words, " being a member of an unlawful association." It would then read - Whoever advocates or encourages, or incites or instigates to any action intended or calculated to prevent or hinder the production, manufacture, or transport for purposes connected with the war, of troops, arms, munitions, or warlike material, including foodstuffs, shall be guilty of an offence. If Senator Mullan moves that amendment I will support him. 10187 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan I have not the slightest intention of doing so. I do not want to make the B ill worse than i t is. I was simply looking for information. 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Then I am prepared to move i t myself. 10187 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - Many a man may say a thing in a moment of excitement for which he ought not to be put in gaol. This clause deals with an association deliberately organized for a purpose. 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING - If the two clauses are compared it will be found that I am right. There are men in this community who have done the things indicated in clause 5, and belong to no organization. They should come under this Bill just the same as if they were members of an organization banded together for the purpose of doing damage to the Empire. 10187 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan Would you put every man who struck in the coal mines the other' day in gaol for six months? 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING I am not speaking about that matter at all. 10187 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan - You are going the right way to do it the next time. 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING I would throw the responsibility on the individual. 10187 K22 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator Blakey - Under clause 4 you cannot tell a man to go and kill a German. 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING That is so. Under clause 4, as i t stands, you could not -advocate conscription, but we passed that clause without a word. 10187 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan How would recruiting go under that clause ? 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING .—It might be argued that i t applies to the taking of human life inside the realm only, but the decision of the five Judges of the Appeal Court in Great Britain in the Casement case shows that that argument does not apply.-. 10187 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - You would then bring in a member of any association, unlawful or not, who dared to do any of the things mentioned in clause 5 ? 10187 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Any individual in the community who is guilty of any of the offences in clause 5 should be punished, whether he belongs to the Industrial Workers of the World or not. 10187 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe You are not really in favour of that? 10188 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING I am. If not, the clause is only waste paper. Why should these things become an offence because a person who does them belongs or does nob belong to a particular association ? Do honorable senators realize the gravity of what is in the clause? Why should a man, prosecuted under clause 5, be able to say, " I do. not belong to an unlawful association. My friend standing side by side with me in the dock does. He may be found guilty, but I must be acquitted, although the evidence against both of us is identical." 10188 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - But there is a liability to prosecute in any case ? 10188 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING No : hence the reason for this Bili. 10188 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Failing this Bill, does the honorable senator contend that nobody who commits an offence would escape punishment? 10188 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Ther e is no present provision so far as the common law or the Statute law is concerned, but there may be some provision in the regulations under the War Precautions Act. As far as other matters are concerned, we will have to fall back upon the ancient Statute law, which is now regarded as the common law. 10188 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - And the honorable senator contends that, to make this Bill operative, certain words ought to be eliminated. 10188 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING The note is in clause 4, which throws the obligation on the individual. I beg to move— That the words " being a member of an unlawful association" be left out. I hope the Minister will see his way clear to accept the amendment. 10188 5.18 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER .- I follow Senator Mullan in desiring to get an expression of opinion from the Government with regard to this clause, because if we pass it as it stands, it may be argued, after Parliament is closed, that the Government, by a regulation, may bring in all those organizations and unions which are now left out of the Bill The Government might then be able to say that it was the intention of Parliament, under this clause, to include them. Senator Mullan and I want to know if this is in the minds of the Government, and whether they propose to make this clause, by regulation, do what perhaps they lack the courage to ask Parliament to sanction. I am en couraged in this view by an offer made by Senator do Largie - the " off-sider " to the Government - who invited me to move an amendment. If he can guarantee that the Government will accept the amendment, I will be prepared to draft it, but I do not propose to harass the Government by drafting amendments which may be unacceptable to them. I am glad Senator Keating has moved his amendment, because, when the vote is taken on it, we shall be able to indicate to the Government that we do not want any regulations of that kind framed during the time that Parliament is not sitting. 10188 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie That is all provided for 10188 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER But I desire to make assurance doubly sure, and I want a chance t o vote against the amendment, which would make a body of men striking against auy legitimate grievance liable under this Bill. It ' is well, therefore, that Senator Mullan brought the matter forward for discussion, and that we shall now have an opportunity of voting against an amendment which would place in the hands of the Government a weapon which I do not think should be at the disposal of any Administration, namely, to summarily send any person to gaol for six months for doing what, under other conditions, he could do without being interfered with. I can quite understand the attitude of honorable senators who want to have things dealt with in a summary way; and if the offer made by Senator de Largie is still open I will accept i t , and draft an amendment; but I realize that the Government have to take the responsibility for the draftsmanship of this Bill, and I particularly want them to have the measure in exactly the way in which i t has been introduced, so that when we meet again, after two months, they will be able to tell us what are the fruits of the measure. 10188 5.23 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister, for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH . - I wish to point out to Senator Gardiner that while there is certainly power under the War Precautions Act to issue regulations, any regulations framed under this Bill will be of the same kind and nature as regulations issued ordinarily under any other Bill that passes this Chamber. I would, therefore, suggest that the honorable senator might very fittingly leave well alone. This is a measure to deal with unlawful associations, and members thereof. That is the objective, and I think the amendment moved by Senator Keating will seriously affect its purpose. The presumption is that all the offences intended to be dealt with by the Bill are hatched and conceived in a particular way, and, having discovered their source, we propose to reach them in this Bill, so that there will be little need to deal with persons outside of an organization. I appeal to honorable senators that the Bill clearly accomplishes the work it set out to do, and I hope the amendment will not be carried, because we do not know where it will land us. In clause 5 we reach the objective of- the Bill, namely, the members of unlawful associations. 10189 5.26 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - It appears to me that if the amendment moved by Senator Keating is agreed to, it will unduly widen the scope of the Bill, and make it a very comprehensive measure, for it will then not only deal with unlawful associations, but will give to the Government power which I, for one, am not prepared to give them in any circumstances whatever. The Government will then have unlimited power to make regulations. 10189 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating This Bill is not confined to unlawful associations. 10189 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT It is styled " A Bill for an Act relating to unlawful associations and members thereof.", 10189 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - " And certain of'. Do not forget that. 10189 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT Under this clause, it will be competent, if I read i t aright, to proceed immediately against the officials of any organization if they took any steps, directly or indirectly, to hinder the production, manufacture, or transport of material required for purposes in connexion with the war. At the present time, the scope of the Bill is quite wide enough, considered in conjunction with the innumerable regulations the Government may put into operation under the Crimes Act, the War Precautions Act, and a number of other Acts of a similar character. 10189 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - On a point of order, I direct attention to the fact that we are discussing clause 5, in which Senator Keating has moved an amendment, deleting certain words.' I want to know whether that amendment is in order, because, if accepted by the Committee, it will destroy the whole purview of the Bill.. The intention of the Bill is, as the Minister said, to deal with unlawful associations. 10189 KRZ 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch Largely ; but also " certain offences." 10189 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - I contend that if the amendment is held to be in order, the Committee will be assuming to itself the power to debate a question which really is not submitted in the measure. 10189 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating I was really surprised to hear Senator Needham submitting the grounds on which he raised the point of order. It simply means that the Senate cannot delete from a clause certain words. If there were no other clause in the Bill but clause 5, and that clause were numbered clause 3, I would still submit that i t would be in order to move the deletion of any words. We have just passed clause 4, which provides that " whoever " advocates or encourages certain things shall be guilty of an offence, with a penalty assigned. Clause 5 provides that " whoever, being a member of an unlawful association," advocates or encourages certain things is guilty of an offence, with a penalty assigned. I have moved for the deletion from clause 5 of the words " being a member of an unlawf u l association," which, if omitted, would bring the clause in drafting conformity with clause 4. This is a B ill for an Act relating to unlawful associations and members thereof "and certain offences." Al l that I am asking is that clause 5 shall provide what is an offence, not merely on the part of members of an unlawful association, hut on the part of anybody. The preamble of the B ill reads— Whereas an association known as the Industrial Workers of the World and members thereof have been concerned in advocating and inciting to the commission of divers crimes and offences: And whereas i t is expedient, for the effective prosecution of the present war, that laws shall be enacted for the suppression of such practices : Be i t therefore enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Australia, as follows:— How Senator Needham, who has occupied the chair with credit, distinction, and impartiality so frequently, could come to the conclusion that, in moving the amendment, I have gone beyond what would be called the order of leave elsewhere, I cannot understand. 10190 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - I only asked for a ruling on the point. 10190 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating I am sure that, on further reflection, the honorable senator will realize that the omission of these words would not mean that we had altered the scope, the purpose, or the purport of the BilL I think that the point of order has been taken by the honorable senator, if I may say so, without a full consideration of the whole position. 10190 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham May I , sir, reply now to Senator Keating, who is a very eminent and able lawyer? He has said that, because the words "certain offences" are mentioned in the preamble, the Committee will be justified in discussing his amendment. I contend that those words are used in relation to " unlawful associations and members thereof." 10190 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating How do you account for clause 4? 10190 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham — I am not bothering about clause 4. Because the .words "certain offences" appear in the preamble, the honorable senator thinks that the Bill should give a latitude to the Government to prosecute all and sundry, whereas the purview of the Bill is " unlawful associations and members thereof and certain offences." I contend that the "certain offences " are in connexion with members of an unlawful association under the measure. 10190 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner I hope, sir, that, in dealing with the point of order, you will take into consideration the fact that, in allowing the second reading of the. measure to go on the voices, we thereby, to an extent, consented to its principles. If an amendment of this character is accepted by the Chair i t will simply mean that the measure, whose principles we agreed to, was not a measure to deal with certain unlawful associations. The amendment, however, would turn it into a measure not only to deal with unlawful associations, but also to deal with lawful associations in a drastic- manner, which, if suggested at the second reading, we would not have agreed to do. The amendment, I submit, opens up new ground. I truly believed that the Bill which we were asked to read a second time related to "unlawful associations and members thereof and certain offences," which offences, I understood, were connected with an unlawful association. If the amendment is upheld, the scope of the Bill will be held to cover, not only unlawful associations, but also lawful associations. I think that this country has sufficient power to punish any person who commits an unlawful act. I do not consider that the scope of the Bill can be altered in Committee. 10190 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - Clause 4 deals only with those persons who incite or instigate to the taking or endangering of human life or the destruction or injury of property; whereas clause 5 is of an entirely different character, and is confined exclusively to a member of an unlawful association, and to that only. The mere fact that a punishment is provided in clause 4 for individuals who endanger human life or instigate the destruction of property does not imply that the power given under clause 5 can, with impunity, be exercised in that way. I think that if the amendment is held to be in order, and is carried, the whole Bill will be reviewed at once, and will receive no support from this side of the Chamber. 10190 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen When Senator Gardiner stated just now that, in passing th second reading on the voices, honorable senators were under the impression that this was a Bill to deal with unlawful associations, probably he was right. But I submit, sir, that, in considering the point of order, you will take into account, not what he and his friends thought they were passing, but what they did pass. What we passed at the second-reading stage is set out very clearly in the preamble. After the recital of certain facts, which do not necessarily imply the purpose of the measure in stating those facts, the purpose is set out in the second paragraph of the preamble— And whereas it is expedient, for the effective prosecution of the present war, that laws shall be enacted for the suppression of such practices. That is, the practices against which the Bill is to legislate. 10190 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner That is the practice of the "divers crimes and offences" referred to in the first paragraph of the preamble. You cannot read one paragraph without the other. 10190 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Firs t the preamble sets out that there is an association known as the Industrial Workers of the. World, - and that the members thereof have been concerned in advocating and inciting to the commission of divers crimes and offences. That is a mere recital of facts. But the second paragraph which I read is a declaration of the purpose of the measure. 10191 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - That is, the practices of the members of the Industrial Workers of the World. It is quite clear that you cannot read into the second paragraph anything which is not there. 10191 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen My honorable friend is trying to read into the paragraph, after the word " practices," the words " of the associations," but those words are not there. Confirming my reading that the purpose of the B ill is to suppress certain practices, I submit that we are entitled to take into account clause 4, where it was not limited to the members of any association. These two things, taken together, do, I submit, bring the amendment entirely within the scope and purpose of the B ill . 10191 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - At the first blush, I was inclined to think ' that Senator Needham was wrong; but, on consideration, I think that the point he took is right. This measure, from beginning to end, is " a Bill relating to unlawful associations and members thereof, and certain offences." The question is: What is the meaning of the words " certain offences " in the title, and what relation do those words bear to the preceding words "relating to unlawful associations and members thereof " ? The more I read the Bill, the more do I feel inclined to believe that the words " certain offences " are intended to be certain offences committed by . unlawful associations and members thereof. Senator Millen has submitted that, if that is so, we did wrong in passing clause 4 as it stood. I think that we did. I believe that, in order to make the Bill sensible, it will be incumbent upon the Government to recommit clause 4, for the purpose of inserting after the word " Whoever " the words "'being a member of an unlawful association," that is, the same words as follow the word " Whoever " in clause 5. As the measure stands now, it is very lop-sided. I cannot get away from the impression that the Bill is intended to apply to unlawful associations and the members thereof, and that the offences referred to are those committed by unlawful associations and the members thereof. I hope that you will rule that Senator Needham's point of order must be upheld. 10191 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham In reply to what has been said by Senator Millen, I should like to say that when he quoted from the preamble the Words— And whereas it is expedient, for the effective prosecution of the present war, that laws shall be enacted for the suppression of such practices, he should, in order that the matter he quoted might be understood, have prefaced i t by quoting the preceding words— - Whereas an Association known as the Industrial Workers of the World, and members thereof, have been concerned in advocating and inciting to the committal of divers crimes and offences. 10191 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The honorable senator had only to read the first clause, which is the short title of the Bill. 10191 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham That is1 so. The first clause reads— This Act may be cited as the Unlawful Associations Act 1916 10191 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The title is nothing. 10191 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham I should like the Minister for Works to inform the Committee of the intention of the Government in introducing the B ill . Is i t intended that the B ill shall apply only to unlawful associations, or to every citizen of the Commonwealth who may be guilty of a breach of the law. If the latter is the intention., there are already in existence Commonwealth and State laws to deal with these offences. I do not wish i t to be understood for a moment that I desire to protect any one who encourages, incites to, or instigates the offences covered by the Bill. I have shown that - I am in favour of the B ill as i t stands. If i t is the intention that the B ill shall apply to every citizen of the Commonwealth, and under existing legislation there is not sufficient power to deal with these offences, I am prepared to give the Government the necessary powers. However, I am of the opinion that the B ill is intended to apply only to unlawful associations and the members thereof, and that therefore my point of order must be sustained. 10191 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - Senator Needham, in seeking to have Senator Keating's amendment set aside as out of order, raises the question of the scope and purpose of the Bill. The subject-matter of the Bill is very clearly set out in the title. It is - A Bill for an Act relating to unlawful associations and members thereof and certain offences. I have said a few times that the main object of the Bill is to deal with unlawful associations and the acts of the members of such associations. But if . we were to circumscribe the scope of the Bill to that main object alone, much of the measure would have to go by the board. For instance, clause 4 would have to go, and clauses 6 and 7 would also have to go. 10191 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating Clauses 6 and 7 will have to go if the point of order is upheld 10191 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - The complete measure would be emasculated if it were agreed that its scope was confined within the narrow lines suggested by Senator Needham. 10192 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - If the Bill applies to lawful associations the whole measure will have to go. 10192 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch I have already said that the main purpose of the Bill is to apply to unlawful associations and the members thereof, but i t is not intended that i t should have no other purpose. I remind Senator Needham that he has already agreed to clause 4 without demur. I believe that Senator Keating's amendment is perfectly in order, but the wisdom of pressing i t is quite another matter. I think the good sense of the Committee will prevail upon the honorable senator not to do so. I hope that honorable senators will take note of the fact that a desire has been generally expressed to finish the work to-night, though we may have to sit rather late to do so. 10192 10000 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDougall) I am going to rule on the point of order taken by Senator Needham in accordance with a precedent already set by the Senate in a ruling by a previous President, Senator Sir Richard Baker, to the following effect:-— Amendments in Committee must be relevant to the subject-matter of the Bill as read a second time. The question to be considered is whether the amendment is relevant to the subject- matter of the Bill. If so, i t can be moved, whether it contains a new principle or not. The test is not the title or the scope or object of the Bill., The standing order is clear, and says— 'Any amendment may be moved to any part of a Bill, provided the same be relevant to the subject-matter of the Bill, and be otherwise in conformity with the rules and orders of the Senate. And standing order 206 says— If any amendment shall have been made in the Bill not coming within the original title, such title shall be amended, and a question put, " That this be the title of the Bill," and the amendment thereof shall be specially reported to the Senate. I rule therefore that Senator Keating's amendment is perfectly in order. 10192 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT -S o much has been said during the discussion of the point of order that I do not purpose to continue my remarks any further than to say that I am not prepared to support the amendment. I shall prevent, so far as I can, any legislation which will give the Government power to issue regulations which, though in conformity with, the Act, might be put into operation against the members of perfectly lawful associations. 10192 5.55 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - If the amendment is pressed I propose to vote against it. I want to say that it is an entirely logical amendment, and I can find no fault with it on that ground. It seems to me that it is an unanswerable argument that if it is a wrong thing for John Smith, who happens to be a member of the Industrial Workers of the World, or some other unlawful association, in time of war, to incite men to delay the loading of a transport, for instance, it cannot be a right thing- for William Brown, who does not happen to be a member of the Industrial Workers of the World,' but is a member of some other organization, to do the same thing. . If we have to take a vote upon the amendment, and it is carried, any union deciding to strike, for instance, would, I presume, have a meeting of its members, at which a motion to strike would probably be made, and then the man who moved the motion would be liable under this Bill. I am not saying that some steps will not yet have to be taken to prevent strikes which affect our warlike operations. But we cannot deal with such a matter as that piecemeal, or in this Bill. We have legislation in some of the States, and I think also in the Commonwealth, which makes a strike illegal, but it has so far been honoured more in . the breach than in the observance, and nothing very dreadful has happened. To-day we have to recognise the fact that no matter what law may appear upon our statute-books, the strike is the accepted practice of the. unions. I do not propose that we should deal with this very big matter in this piecemeal fashion. The whole standing, privileges, and rights of unions must be passed in review before we can accept a proposition to deny that which the community tolerates as a practice, and which the law has so far tolerated. In the circumstances, although I agree with its logic, I am unable to support the amendment submitted by Senator Keating, Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to. Clauses 6 to 8, preamble, and title agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. Bill read a third time. 10193 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and Bill read a first time. 10193 10192 6.2 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH -In moving - That this Bill be now read a second time, I desire to say that what the measure proposes to accomplish has already been accomplished in other parts of the world, and with great advantage. Briefly stated, the object of the Bill is to utilize as much as possible the daylight which God gives us. Under the existing system we are accustomed to measure time by the clock— a merely mechanical contrivance. We rise in the morning by i t , and we regulate our'ordinary daily routine by i t . This Bill is intended to set aside the clock, and to allow the sun to take its place. It is quite true that there are many callings in this country to which the measure will not apply. I know some in which i t is not a question of saving daylight, but of saving darkness, as the people engaged in those avocations, in order to earn a livelihood, have to continue their work long after the sun has set. But the Bill is calculated to bring about a much desired improvement so far as our urban population is concerned. It will enable them, at a certain period of the year, to rise: much earlier than they do at present, and also to retire to rest proportionately earlier in the evening. Every day we behold the spectacle of a valuable amount of sunlight going to waste while people are peacefully sleeping. At present we are slaves to the clock, and i t is to overcome this enslavement that the Bill is introduced. The advantages to be derived from i t are manifold. In addition to providing opportunities for utilizing daylight while people are engaged in their daily occupations, i t will confer a great benefit upon those who work in buildings in the large cities of the Commonwealth. By reason of the fact that they will commence and cease work an hour earlier in the summer time than would otherwise be the case, i t is . obvious that they will perform their allotted task under more agreeable conditions as to temperature. Then again, the Bill will affect a great saving in the matter of artificial light. The evidence given ' by the Railways Commissioners before the Select Committee which inquired into this matter in Victoria was to the effect that this innovation would result in a saving of £1,700 a year in their lighting bill. It is clear, therefore, that when i t is extended to ail the other Departments of State, as well as to private individuals, there will be material benefits conferred by the operation of this Bill. In the country districts, too, its advantages will be manifest. Children who have to travel long distances to school will arrive there when the air is much cooler than i t will be an hour later in the morning, and, consequently, their day will be spent under improved conditions so far as temperature is concerned. Indeed, advantages will be derived from the Bill which have not been properly assessed up to date. I believe that honorable senators are thoroughly in accord with the principle underlying i t . It has already been introduced in the Old Country, and also in Tasmania, with good results. The reason why this Parliament is taking the initiative in the matter is obvious. The State interests are so interdependent that unless the Central Authority institutes this reform very little benefit w ill he derived from its adoption piecemeal. Seeing that the railway systems between all States are being linked up, the necessity for in troducing such an innovation becomes the more imperative. The transcontinental line will be completed within the next few months.- But Victoria could not move in this matter with benefit to its citizens unless New South Wales and South Australia took similar action, and, consequently, the Commonwealth is abundantly justified in introducing this reform. 10194 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - So far as the principle of the Bill is concerned, it is not necessary to say anything about it. We should just put it through. But I desire to ask a question which was put by Senator Ready a moment or two ago. I observe that the measure is limited to the duration of the war and six months thereafter. If it is to be so limited I submit that, on the termination of the war, we shall lose the benefit of what should prove a very useful measure. 10194 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham We can amend the Constitution by means of a referendum. 10194 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN But referendums do not always result as we would like them to result. If i t be true that we have not the constitutional power to enact this legislation in ordinary times, and that our authority will terminate with the close of the war, I would suggest that this is one of the matters in respect of which the States ought to invest this Parliament with power to legislate in the way that is now proposed. When once thi9 practice of daylight saving has been adopted, I am sure that even the most sluggish members of the community will not be aware of its existence. Therefore I strongly urge upon the Minister - i f we have not the authority in normal times to enact this form of legislation - t o open up negotiations with the States inviting them to endow us with the necessary power. 10194 6.13 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - This is one of those measures to which I attach very little importance. I happened to be in the Old Country recently when a similar Bill was brought into operation, and scarcely any one knew anything about it. I quite recognise that it is possible to save money by dispensing with artificial light for a certain period of the year. I am glad that the Commonwealth has taken action to make this, practice uniform throughout Australia. When I was serving my. time, and for some years afterwards, I used to start work at 6 o'clock in the morning during seven months of the year, and at 7 o'clock in the morning during five months of the year. But the wiseacres in the persona of our employers came along and said, " You must all start work at the one time, namely, 8 o'clock." As, a result we lost an hour's daylight.. We had a strike in opposition to the employers' orders - a strike which lasted ten weeks - and we were defeated.- But I am pleased to know that we are now going to revert to the ideal of the trade unionists of thirty years ago. When in England I heard the story of an old lady who would not put her old clock back because it had " told the truth for 100 years, and she could not bear it to tell a lie"; but she had put her little clock back, as it was made in Germany, and was used to lying. 10194 6.16 K2D Tasmania 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator READY . - I congratulate the Government on bringing forward the Bill, even at this late hour of the session. We have had a little experience in Tasmania of daylight saving, and saving on our light bills. There was considerable opposition to the reform in Tasmania when the Bill was first introduced, but that has almost entirely disappeared. To Captain Giblin, ex-member of the House of Assembly, now at the front with the 40th Battalion, is due the credit for getting the Bill through, after a long and strenuous fight. It seems a small thing to put the clock forward an hour, but the alteration has been appreciated very highly in Tasmania, as I have been told by a number of workers there in the last month or two. When they knock off at 5 o'clock they have nearly five hours of daylight for recreation or amusement. That alone, without the other savings stated, would justify the putting forward of the clock in the beautiful summer climate of the Commonwealth. Another health advantage which has not been touched on is that it gets one to bed an hour earlier every night. We go to bed at 11 o'clock, as usual, although it is really 10 o'clock, so that the Bill is . really, a legislative inculcation of the old adage, " Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise." Doctors speak very highly of the Bill for health reasons. We, in Tasmania, have led Australia in this reform, and, in consequence, have been under a great difficulty because our time has been an hour different from mainland time. All the boats sailing to and from Tasmania nave kept mainland time, but the time of departure has had Eb be advertised in the press in Tasmanian time.- Other complications arose, particularly in the sending of telegrams and cables. The closing of the post-offices had to be extended in Tasmania by one hour to keep the time uniform, and' I believe this caused a little friction as far as telegraphic arrangements were concerned, which had to be adjusted. All these disadvantages will disappear with a uniform Act. I hope the Government will look into the constitutional question raised by Senator Millen, so that, instead of being only a temporary war measure, this reform may be permanently grafted upon the national life of the people of Australia. 10195 6.20 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - Senator Millen seems to be under the impression that this measure has been introduced in consequence or on account of the war, and for its duration only. If that is the case, the validity of the legislation can be seriously challenged, because no such ground or' justification is shown in the measure for submitting it and passing it into law. Any authority that we have for passing legislation of this character is given under section 51 of the Constitution, in the paragraph dealing with astronomical and meteorological matters. 1 have very grave and serious doubt whether the measure is within the competence of the Federal Legislature. Had it been desired to pass a measure of this kind, and make time uniform throughout Australia, even adopting the zone system that applies under present conditions that might have been done by regulation under the War Precautions Act; but whether we have the competence to decide by legislation what shall or shall not be standard time for any particular portion of the Commonwealth is very much open to question. 10195 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie We are for clock time only, and not for standard time. 10195 6.20 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING It does not matter whether i t is clock, standard, mean, solar or any other time. When I was in the Old Country recently they had just adopted a system of daylight saving. For seven or eight years there had been a movement by certain gentlemen in England to get some such system established. At first those who promoted the system were laughed at as fanatics, but when i t had been considered t and reported on by a Committee of the House of Commons, and the report had been circulated throughout the Empire, the subject was taken up and pushed forward. At the same time, I doubt whether any honorable member of this Parliament thought that it was competent for us to deal with the matter. Except under the astronomical or meteorological power, I do not see exactly how we could have assented our competence to deal with the subject. The question of whether we are going to save daylight at one end of the day or the other depends very much on the habits, occupations, and inclinations of various individuals. In England we often found at the end of the day that, after we had had dinner— and i t was much lighter there up to 9 o'clock at night than i t is here now - w e did not feel inclined to go to a place of entertainment. It seemed to be breaking into the day. One had the impression that he was going to a matinee. When the darkness came down, i t was night, and fairly late. People in trade and business, and especially those who cater for the wants of the people at certain hours of the day, will feel the effect of this alteration in the hours of the clock, not for one season, but for two or three. That is one reason why i t is desirable, as Senator Millen suggested, that we should be assured that what we are doing in this regard may be permanent. It will greatly affect those who have invested their savings in various enterprises, particularly people with very small capital, who are endeavouring to cater for the wants of what I may call a flitting community, and are dependent on the returns they get "from these hours in the evening. Tt is all very well to say that, although i t will be necessary to get up an hour earlier in the morning, we shall have three or four hours' leisure in the evening. It will not appeal to people who have invested money in various localities around the cities, and are dependent on catering for the wants of the community between the hours of, say, half-past 7 and 9 o'clock. Those are the people who will be most seriously affected by the alteration of the hours of the clock. Captain Giblin, when in the House of Assembly in Tasmania, took a great deal of interest in this matter, and I assisted him personally here to some small extant in getting on the track of reports and various other matters dealing with the question so far as the House of Commons was concerned. I have a first and second copy of the Bill presented to the Tasmanian Parliament. I have here, also, a copy of the Bill now under consideration by this Chamber. It has been the custom as long as I remember for every clause of any Bill presented to either House of the Federal Parliament to contain under the marginal notes a reference to corresponding existing legislation on the subject. This Bill does not contain a single reference of the kind, either to Imperial or Tasmanian legislation. Yet I can read out clause upon clause of the Tasmanian Bill, and show where, word for word, this Bill has been taken from it. The draftsman, or the Government, have not had the decency or the honour to give credit to Captain Giblin, or the Legislature of Tasmania. In Committee: Clause 1 agreed to. Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m. Clauses 2 to 6 agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported without amendment ; report adopted. Bill read a third time. 10196 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. Motion (by Senator Russell) proposed - That this Bill be now read a first time. 10196 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant I should like to know from the Minister, in'charge of the Bill how much additional revenue it is anticipated will be obtained from the measure as drafted 1 10196 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - The increase in taxation averages about 25 per cent, over that of last year, and, roughly speaking, will give us about £1,000,000 more. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a first time. 10196 10196 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I move - That this Bill be now read a second time. The Senate is in a position similar to that which arose in connexion with the Entertainments Tax Bill, which was received here without the accompanying Assessment Bill. Honorable senators expressed the desire to have the Assessment Bill first, but as that measure is not yet available, we have been compelled, owing to the short time at our disposal, to go on with the taxation measure first. If honorable senators desire to postpone this measure until the other Bill is before the Senate, there will be no objection. Very little requires to be said for the Bill, which simply provides for an all-round increase of about 25 per cent, upon the taxation of last year. It is scarcely necessary for' me to say that the money must be obtained to meet our interest obligations, and provide for our other undertakings. I might add, however, that there has been a uniform alteration in regard to the exemptions. Most honorable senators will remember that there was a higher exemption in the case of incomes from personal exertion in last year's Act as compared with the exemptions on income from property, but this year the exemption in both will disappear at £500 on a graduated scale. Companies' incomes will have to provide for the usual increase, which will bring their tax up to 1s. 101/2d. in the £1. It is estimated that the increase provided for will bring in an additional revenue of about £1,000,000. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without request. 10196 miscellaneous 10183 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT In view of the state of business, and to meet the convenience of honorable senators, I suspend the sitting of the Senate until 8.30 o'clock, at which hour I shall resume the chair. Sitting suspended from 8.13 to 8.30 p.m. 10196 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended, and Bill read a first time. 10196 10196 8.32 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I move - That this Bill be now read a second time. Though this is rather a lengthy Bill, it contains few or no principles. It simply provides machinery whereby the grand principle embodied in the taxing Act may be carried out. The main principle of the measure is to prevent persons from dodging the tax. It prescribes what societies and entertainments shall be taxed, and defines an entertainment to include " any exhibition, performance, lecture, amusement, game or sport for admission to which payment is made." The exemptions are set out in clause 12, as follows : - Entertainments tax shall not he charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioner is satisfied - that the whole of the takings thereof are devoted to philanthropic, religious, or charitable purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment; or that the entertainment is of a wholly educational character (any question on that ' point to be determined, in case of difference, by the Commissioner) ; or that the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and that the charge is not more than 1d. for each person; or that the entertainment is provided for partly educational or partly scientific purposes by a society, institution, or committee not conducted or established for profit. The last exemption will include agricultural societies - that is, where no payment is made to members of the committee; but the ordinary agricultural society as conducted in Australia will be exempt from taxation under this measure. Of course, the charities, children's bazaars, and so on are also exempted. There is another clause of some little importance, and that is clause 13, which provides for a refund of the tax in certain cases. It says - Where the Commissioner is satisfied that the whole of the net proceeds of an entertainment are devoted to philanthropic, religious, or charitable purposes, and that the whole of the expenses of the entertainment do not exceed 50 per centum of the receipts, he shall repay to the proprietor the amount of the entertainments tax paid in respect of the entertainment. A refund of the amount of the tax will be granted where the entertainment is held purely for philanthropic purposes. A refund is provided in another case. Provided that when the Commissioner is satisfied that, owing to adverse climatic conditions the expenses of an entertainment for philanthropic, religious, or. charitable purposes in respect of which payments for admission have been made exceed 50 per centum of the receipts, the Commissioner shall repay to the proprietor the amount of the entertainments tax paid in respect of the entertainment. Where a fete or a gathering has Deen organized, and owing to adverse weather conditions certain expense has been undertaken by the parties interested, as they are acting purely from a philanthropic motive, that is for the purpose of raising money for an institution, a refund to that amount will be granted. Most of the other provisions are merely machinery provisions for an effective check upon the revenue. 10197 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - Taking advantage of the brief interval which occurred just now, I asked the Minister a question as to what entertainments were exempted by the provisions he has read ; and I assume from the statement he made just now, that paragraph 6 of clause 12 was intended to supply the information I was seeking. I want to ask the Minister to be very clear on this point, because I think it would be defeating the purpose of Parliament if we attempted to levy the tax on agricultural shows. Although the Minister says that they are exempt, as I think they ought to be, he put a qualification on that exemption; but, apart from the qualification, I am not quite clear, although I accept, his statement as to the intention, that the Bill does exempt these institutions. Clause 12 provides, amongst other things, that the tax shall no't be charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioner is satisfied that the entertainment is provided for partly . educational or partly scientific purposes by a society, institution, or committee not conducted or established for profit. I see many difficulties there in regard to these institutions. The question is whether one would say that an agricultural or horticultural show is partly scientific or partly educational. The Commissioner might take a different view of the matter. When it comes to a question of being conducted for a profit, many of these shows make a profit at one gathering. They do not exist for profit-making, and, on the whole, whatever profits they make go to the improvement of their large grounds. Nevertheless, they make a profit, and it was out of the profits that the Royal Agricultural Society at Sydney built up their magnificent grounds and improvements. I notice that in paragraph 3 of section 10 the South Australian Act of 1916 exempts these shows. It reads as. follows: - Amusements duty shall not be charged on payments for admission to any agricultural, horticultural, floricultural, poultry, dog, or other like show. That -provision is clear and explicit. I ask the Minister to consider before we come to the Committee stage whether it would not be better to incorporate words of that kind, or, at any rate, to amplify the wording of the clause as it stands. 10198 8.37 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner I am inclined to disagree with the "Leader of the Liberal party in this matter. I am inclined to think that in a time of war the people who conduct agricultural shows will feel aggrieved if they are put apart from others and are not allowed to contribute towards the upkeep of the war. This is no time for half measures. This is no time to exempt some persons because they are engaged in a show or in an exhibition of produce, or in a high-jump exhibition, or in a trotting match. That is of very great educational advantage. These taxation measures are introduced for war purposes. I almost think that i t is an insult to agricultural societies to exempt them at such a time as the present. This is a time when there should be no exemptions from a contribution towards the war. The surprising thing to me is that these shows can be carried on as if there were no war at all. We have just passed a measure that will take 25 per cent, more from incomes which are already heavily taxed. That makes me think that if we are generous with one hand we are grasping with- the other. I do not think that any one connected with agricultural shows or other forms of amusement will take exception to an entertainments tax. I believe that the spirit of the people will be disappointed if the Government exempt any one at the present time. 10198 8.39 JYX Victoria 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY .- Senator Millenhas nut forth a plea for agricultural societies. If the Government are to be moved by that plea, I would point out to them that once they open the door to exemptions they cannot stop there. From time to time in Victoria there is held an exhibition of a highly-important character for the . purpose of helping onward Australian industries. It is held under the auspices of the Australian Natives Association in the Exhibition Building here, and is very educational. If the Government once open the door in regard to exemptions, it will be very difficult to say where to stop. The exhibition I referred to is not run for a profit, but a charge for admission is made. There have been two or three exhibitions held under the auspices of the Australian Natives Association. The exhibitions have had a highly educational interest to visitors, and a very big effect in encouraging Australian manufactures in different parts of the Commonwealth. They have helped to create a patriotic sentiment in Australia that was not so strongly manifested before the Australian Natives Association took the matter in hand. 10198 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen I , think that that exhibition is exempt under the clause. 10198 8.39 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I understood from the Minister the other day that the tax would be levied in respect to any exhibition, performance, lecture, amusement, game, or sport for admission to which payment is made. 10198 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Paragraph d of clause 12 exempts the kind of exhibition to which you refer \ and I want agricultural shows put on the same ground. 10198 8.39 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Paragraph d of clause 12 exempts the kind of exhibition to which you refer \ and I want agricultural shows put on the same ground. 10198 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Do the profits, if there have been any profits from such exhibitions, go to the funds of the Australian Natives Association? 10198 8.39 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The profits, if there be any, go to a fund which is utilized for the purpose of extending the association's' sphere of influence in this and similar exhibitions. I do not think that any society which conducts exhibitions of this character ought to come under this measure. 10198 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - They are exempt under clause 12, and I want to put agricultural shows on the same list. 10198 8.39 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY That opens up a big subject. Prior to the war the Royal Agricultural Society of Victoria had an annual exhibition on their grounds at Flemington. In addition to the educational advantages which a number of visitors derived from the exhibition, ther was a very varied programme, and substantial monetary prizes were offered for high jumps and other things. If this measure were confined to agricultural societies which hold annual shows for educational purposes, and for the advancement of agricultural, pastoral, and horticultural interests, I would not have the slightest objection to an exemption being made. But in the case of some shows where they have a very varied programme, and because of the programme the profits are sometimes pretty large, I do not know why they should be exempt from this tax. 10199 8.45 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - In the various States demonstrations in connexion with which sports are held are arranged every year by trade societies in celebration of the Eight Hours Day. The proceeds in some cases are used entirely for the purpose of completing partially erected trades halls. I am not sure that such demonstrations and sports would be covered by paragraph d of clause 12. 10199 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL They are covered by clause 13 10199 8.45 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT The p proceeds of the demonstrations are not divided amongst the members of the societies arranging them, and I should like to be assured that they will be exempt from the taxgatherer. 10199 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Should not all these points be considered in Committee? 10199 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT They would be much more fittingly dealt with in Committee, but as they are relevant to the B ill , I cannot rule their discussion out of order. 10199 8.45 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT Ther e is another form of entertainment to which I would like to refer. The Railways Commissioners at various times arrange for excursions, and excursions are also arranged by the shipping companies. No provision appears to have been made for the imposition of a tax on the proceeds of thes ventures, and so far as I can see they are not included in the exemptions. It is very desirable that we should know whether the very substantial returns which are occasionally derived from these ventures will be liable to the entertainment tax. Of course, this whole business is very objectionable to me. It is a form of taxation to which I am opposed, and i t is calculated to produce, comparatively-speaking, a miserable amount of revenue. The Government are prepared to increase the income-tax, and they propose a tax on entertainment tickets; yet they know that the lands of this country are worth £446,000,000.. It is a standing disgrace that the Government do not come down to this Chamber and ask us to impose a tax upon community-created values. 10199 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order! 10199 8.50 K22 Victoria 0 0 BLAKEY, Albert Senator BLAKEY - I am glad that Senator Findley raised' the question he did in connexion with paragraph d of clause 12, under which the Assistant Minister has said that shows conducted by agricultural societies will be exempt from this taxation. Though that is not quite clear to me, I accept the assurance of the Minister. I hope we shall have a similar assurance in respect of the Australian Natives' Association Exhibition, to which Senator Findley has referred, and 'which is held on the 26th January in this State. I am doubtful whether that exhibition, which is largely scientific and educational, will be covered by paragraph d of clause 12. I hope that before the Bill goes into Committee the Assistant Minister will be able to five us some assurance on the point. Last year the exhibition was run at a pretty severe financial loss, but this year it is hoped there will be a profit. 10199 8.52 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - We have not had much time to look into this Bill, and I therefore require a little information. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Government to tax complimentary tickets and cards of invitation for entertainments for admission to persons who do not hold such tickets or cards are obliged to pay. If it is not the intention of the Government to tax such tickets and cards it should be. I should like to know also whether totalizator tickets, and tickets for Tattersall's sweeps, from which a considerable revenue is derived, are to be liable to this taxation, or whether those who derive large profits from this source of revenue are to be allowed to go scot-free ! 10199 8.53 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - Questions in dispute as to liability to taxation under clause 12 are to be determined by the Commissioner, from whose decision there is no appeal. I have the authority of the Acting Commissioner to say that, in his opinion, clause 12 does cover agricultural shows, and we may, therefore, accept that as final. They are partly educational and partly scientific. The Australian Natives Association Exhibition referred to by Senators Findley and Blakey would certainly come under the same determination, as it is not held for the purpose of making a profit. The whole matter depends on the question whether the fete, carnival, race-meeting, cricket or football match, or sports meeting is run for profit. Tickets for admission to a professional football match would undoubtedly be taxed, but if there were a guarantee that a particular match was an amateur game, it would be a question for the Commissioner to decide whether it would not be exempt. 10200 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley What about the eight hours demonstrations? 10200 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL It is carried out purely for charity, but in such a case there is a condition as to the amount of expenses incurred. In the case of an Eight Hours Day gala run for charitable purposes, as i t always is 10200 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The Minister is speaking only of Victoria. 10200 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL —If such a demonstration were carried out for profit, I suppose the tickets for admission would be liable to the tax, and this would depend upon the determination of the Commissioner. 10200 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - What if it is held for the benefit of a trades hall fund? 10200 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL If a .demonstration is carried out by an eight hours committee, or by any one else for profit, and not for charity, the rickets of admission would be liable to taxation. Under clause 13 the Commissioner has power to refund taxation where he is satisfied that the whole of the net proceeds of an entertainment are devoted to philanthropic, religious, or charitable purposes, and the expenses do not exceed 50 per cent, of the receipts, and also in a case where, because of adverse climatic conditions, the expenses of an entertainment for those purposes exceed 50 per cent, of the receipts. Senator McDougall has raised the question of complimentary tickets. They could not be taxed, because, before any ticket is liable to this taxation, i t must have been paid for. The difficulty the honorable senator has raised might be got over by an absolute prohibition of such complimentary tickets 'in the case of any entertainment for admission to which a charge is made. We know that complimentary tickets are often given in these cases, and the societies concerned might be called upon to pay the tax in respect of such tickets, or the visitor to the entertainment would otherwise have to be stopped at the gate, and the amount of the tax collected from him. I ask Senator McDougall not to press for an amendment in that direction.' Question resolved in the affirmative Bill read a second time In Committee: Clauses 1 to 11 agreed to. Clause 12 - Entertainments tax shall not be charged on payments for admission to any entertainment where the Commissioner is satisfied - that the whole of the takings thereof are devoted to philanthropic, religious, or charitable purposes without any charge on the takings for any expenses of the entertainment; or that the entertainment is of a wholly educational character (any question on that point to be determined, in case of difference, by the Commissioner) ; or that the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and that the charge is not more than one penny for each person; or that the entertainment is provided for partly educational or partly scientific purposes by a society, institution, or committee not conducted or established for profit. 10200 8.58 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR . - I want a little information from the Minister in charge of the Bill. In South Australia a concert is held annually by the children of the State schools, in which as many as a thousand children take part. There is a charge for admission, 'but the whole of the money is devoted to the decoration of the schools throughout the State. This cannot definitely be said to be a charity, nor can it any more definitely be said to be an entertainment run for profit, whilst it is certainly in the interests of education. 10200 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell If a .demonstration is carried out by an eight hours committee, or by any one else for profit, and not for charity, the rickets of admission would be liable to taxation. Under clause 13 the Commissioner has power to refund taxation where he is satisfied that the whole of the net proceeds of an entertainment are devoted to philanthropic, religious, or charitable purposes, and the expenses do not exceed 50 per cent, of the receipts, and also in a case where, because of adverse climatic conditions, the expenses of an entertainment for those purposes exceed 50 per cent, of the receipts. Senator McDougall has raised the question of complimentary tickets. They could not be taxed, because, before any ticket is liable to this taxation, i t must have been paid for. The difficulty the honorable senator has raised might be got over by an absolute prohibition of such complimentary tickets 'in the case of any entertainment for admission to which a charge is made. We know that complimentary tickets are often given in these cases, and the societies concerned might be called upon to pay the tax in respect of such tickets, or the visitor to the entertainment would otherwise have to be stopped at the gate, and the amount of the tax collected from him. I ask Senator McDougall not to press for an amendment in that direction.' 10200 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR Frequently there are entertainments held for the entry to which a charge of 6d. is made, whilst an additional 6d. is charged for refreshment. I should like to know whether such entertainments would be liable to this taxation? 10200 9.0 K3E VICTORIA Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL The way in which a mixed spree such as an entertainment which is followed by a dance and buns and coffee will be viewed by the Commissioner i t is impossible for me to say. An entertainment of that sort may be conducted by a dance-room committee for their own profit, in which case the proceeds will be taxed. On the other hand, i t may be run for the benefit of a hospital, or of the Red Cross fund, in which case the proceeds will not be taxed. 10201 9.1 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY -I would like to be clear as to the position that will be occupied by the annual demonstration of the Eight Hours Union. The Assistant Minister has stated that in Victoria the demonstration is conducted purely on charitable lines. But Victoria is the only State in the Commonwealth which has enacted legislation in that direction. In the other States, the annual demonstration is conducted in the capitals and towns in which there is an Eight Hours Union of the various trades and occupations. If any profit results from the demonstration, it is devoted, not to the organizations, but to the erection of a hall, in- which they may meet. I do not know under what heading such entertainments will come. 10201 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen That is a sort of charity which begins at home. 10201 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY But I would like the honorable senator to understand that these trade societies cannot meet in those halls without paying rental for the rooms which they occupy, and the whole of the proceeds derived from such rental, and also from the annual demonstration, is devoted to- extending or improving the building which is used by these particular organizations. I think that the- Assistant Minister should tell us whether' such entertainments will be taxed under this B ill . 10201 9.4 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I understand that an institution holding a benefit carnival, such as the Trades Hall, will not be exempt from the operation of the Bill, unless the Commissioner determines that the carnival is of a charitable, educational, or scientific character. Where an eight hours demonstration is run for charitable purposes, the proceeds will be exempt from taxation, but where it is run for the benefit of a building fund it will be taxed. 10201 9.5 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - I should like to know whether the tickets of admission to social and other forms of entertainment which are held by committees of the Liberal party to assist in defraying the cost of their election campaigns will be exempt from taxation? 10201 9.6 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I would point out to the honorable senator that it is not so much a question of the nature of the function as it is of its object and purpose. If the Women's National League hold a garden party, for example, and the profits are used for political purposes, they will certainly be taxed. 10201 9.7 KNN Tasmania 0 0 GUY, James Senator GUY .- It seems to me that there ought to be some provision in the- Bill to exempt from taxation all Eight Hours Demonstrations. I have had some experience of the little demonstration that is held in Tasmania. The profits from it are really nil, and the demonstration is practically financed by voluntary contributions. I know that these contributions amount to £50 or £60, and that the whole takings do not exceed £120. It would be cruel to tax a demonstration of that sort, which is not run for the purposes of private profit. If a profit should accrue from the exhibition, it is devoted to providing, a hall for the various trade organizations. But that profit is represented entirely by voluntary contributions. 10201 9.8 JYX Victoria 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY .- I think that any profits derived by trade organizations in Australia from their annual fetes in connexion with the eight hours principle should be exempted from taxation for the same reason that the profits derived from an exhibition under the auspices of the Australian Natives Association are to be exempt. In Victoria, for many, years, Labour has celebrated the Eight Hours Day in a way worthy of the occasion. There is, in connexion with that demonstration, an art union, and thousands of tickets are sold which enable their purchasers to witness the sports that are held in the arena and the pother amusements which are provided - in the main building. After the demonstration a balance-sheet is presented, and a certain amount is devoted to State charities. A statement was recently published in the press to the effect that the Peacock Government do not intend to approve of the holding of any future art unions in connexion with the Eight Hours Demonstration; but whether they will live long enough to do anything further in the direction suggested, I do not know. At the present time, they are between the devil and the briny. Their fate hangs in the balance. Some say that their days are numbered, and I hope that they are. But if the Eight Hours' Union is not permitted to hold an art union in connexion with future demonstrations, a certain sum of money will have to be provided for the expenditure which must necessarily be incurred, and any profits resulting therefrom will, according to the statement of the Assistant Minister, be taxed. 10202 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen The tax will not be levied on the profits. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY That is so. I will be levied on the proceeds of admission. 10202 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - On the gross takings. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The tax will be levied on those who pass through the turnstiles and on the tickets that are sold if tickets be issued. 10202 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Irrespective of whether a profit or loss is made ? 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Yes; , but seeing that there will be an exemption in connexion wifch the Australian Natives Association, why should an invidious distinction he drawn in the case of the Eight Hours Demonstration? 10202 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator Guy I s not the Eight Hours Demonstration in the streets an educational one? 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I hold that i t is not merely of an educational, but of a scientific character. 10202 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Then it will be exempt. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Under what provision of the Bill? 10202 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen Under the clause to which the honorable senator has referred several times. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The Assistant Minister has stated that they will not be exempt, and he has obtained his information from an officer who holds a responsible position in the Land Tax Office. If is very doubtful whether the Commissioner of Taxes will rule that these demonstrations are of an educational o scientific character. 10202 9.6 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL It depends upon the purposes to which the profits are to be devoted. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I do not see how that affects the position. 10202 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - If they are to be devoted to charitable purposes, it is one thing; but if they are to be devoted to purposes of private profit, it is another. 10202 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY In these cases the profits are utilized by the committees to make additions to existing buildings, and where no extensions are required, a fund is created for the erection of a trades hall. All doubts ought to be removed here, and now as to whether the Eight Hours demonstrations are to come under the category of the B ill . I do not want to move an amendment if I can get an assurance from the Minister on the subject. If ' ' I find that they are to come within the provisions of the Bill I shall take' an opportunity of - seeing ' whether they cannot be made exempt. 10202 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - Several cases have been cited where hardships might inure if the provisions of the Bill were made applicable to the receipts in connexion with particular forms of entertainment. An important institution exists in this Commonwealth which does not exist anywhere else, in the world - the annual Inter-State eight-oar race - which has been intermitted since the war began. I do not expect the Minister to be in a position to say whether any particular institution will or will not come within the purview of the Bill in the opinion of the Commissioner, but I take it that the Commissioner, in exercising his discretion under clause 12, will to a certain extent be guided by the general feeling of Parliament when the Bill was going through. 10202 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie I s not the international race held on the Thames and elsewhere of much greater importance than the one you mention ? 10202 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING This is the only institution of its kind in the world. Six States send their respective eight-oar crews, Queensland being exempted if the race is rowed on the Swan, and Western Australia exempted if the race is rowed on the Brisbane. In those cases the States named can stay out without forfeiting their right to compete in the following year. The oarsmen are all amateurs, and the main source of revenue for preserving the race comes from the admission fee paid for seats on the boats which the organization at the particular centre where the race is rowed charters, and which alone are permitted to follow the race. The charge runs from £1 upwards. According to the entertainments tax that was passed last night, the tax on those tickets would be Is. 8d., or more. The money derived from the charges on the boats goes to the local association in aid of their fund to carry on the event; but, as a matter of fact, whenever a State has the honour of having the race rowed on its river, the local association has to go round to the friends of rowing a long time beforehand and ask them to put their hands in their pockets to enable i t to finance the affair. No profit is derived by any person or organization. If you ask a man who is going to follow the race to pay £1 Is. 8d., instead of. £1, he will -hesitate a great deal more than the man who has to pay Is. Id., instead of Is., to go to an entertainment. The event calls together annually over a distance of 2,000 miles the trained young rowers of the Commonwealth, who do not benefit a penny-piece by their achievements. The Oxford and Cambridge race is rowed within a comparatively short distance of the respective universities. The definition says, " 'Entertainment' includes any exhibition, performance, lecture, amusement, game, or sport for admission to which payment is made." Many people may go to see portions of the race from the banks of the river, but those who want to see i t from start to finish invariably go on one of the vessels which the local association charters. I hope that the Minister,will take the matter into consideration and see that when the races are restored after the war they are treated by the Commissioner equally as well as the Eight Hours demonstration. 10203 9.24 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY . - It 'has been distinctly stated that the agricultural societies throughout the States will be exempt from this taxation. There are agricultural shows held annually, not only in the capitals, but in almost every town along the coast and inland. They do not make a great deal of money, but they have a certain amount of ground, and on its improvement expend whatever profit is made. In addition to Brisbane, shows are held at Ipswich, Toowoomba, Maryborough, Rockhampton, Bundaberg, Mackay, and other places by agricultural and industrial societies, but in all those places there' is also another annual demonstration which brings the people into the centres. That is the demonstration bv the Labour orrganizations, which has exactly the same effect, and to a great extent a similar influence. No person or individual organization makes a profit out of these - gatherings. In most places the , State has granted a piece of land on which the organizations are to erect a building. Their principal means of raising funds is their annual demonstration, and the profits are ' always used to improve the land and erect buildings for the benefit of the organized labour in the district, just as the annual agricultural and industrial shows are held for the benefit of the people engaged in agriculture and industry. An honorable senator from South Australia has called my attention to the fact that a wealthy man in Adelaide paid off the debt on the Trades Hall in Adelaide, but in most other cases in Australia numbers of people by attending these demonstrations provide a certain amount of money which is used to pay for or improve the hall. 10203 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior We did not get the land from the Government 10203 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY In some cases in Queensland the State has not given the land, but in others i t has. It was also given in Sydney and Melbourne. Certainly if the whole of the agricultural societies with their annual demonstrations are to be exempt, the annual demonstrations of organized labour should also be exempt from taxation of this description. 10203 9.31 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR . - In paragraph c of the clause there appears the following: - That the entertainment is intended only for the amusement of children, and that the charge is not more than Id. for each person; or It would appear that the Bill was drawn up at a, time when 6d. and even 3d. tickets were included, but tickets up to 6d. have been exempted, and I want to know now if entertainments given by private showmen to school children will be included. It seems to me necessary to alter this paragraph in order to make the Bill conform, with the other measure which we have passed. 10203 9.33 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - The words complained of by the honorable senator are useless, but they can do no harm, and I would ask the honorable senator not to press the matter. 10203 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating —Wh y not send the Bill back if an error is discovered in this Chamber ? 10203 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL I have no objection to that course, and I admit the desirability of having the Bill strictly correct. Referring to the point raised by Senator Turley, I feel sure he will not accuse me of lacking in sympathy for the proposal, because I am very well aware that in some countries of the world halls are provided free of charge to workers' organizations. But in this Bill' we are laying down a principle concerning carnivals, bazaars, and various other forms of amusements, and the question arises whether a carnival or eight hours fete organized for the purpose of benefiting the building fund, should or should not be taxed. If i t can be shown that trades halls are not used for educational or scientific purposes—thoug h meetings are held in such buildings for educational and scientific objects— I do not see why they cannot be included in the same category as, say, cricket clubs in the metropolitan area where, as a rule, the proceeds are divided by three, each club interested in the ground getting 33 per cent., and using the money generally for the development and improvement of the property. I trust that the suggestion will not be pressed, and I understand that the Leader of the Liberal party in another House practically withdrew any suggestions that an exemption would be claimed under this heading. 10204 9.35 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - I would suggest that Senator Senior press the question he has raised. The Minister says it does not matter very much, and, that' being so, I do not see why another place should not accept the amendment at once. It would indicate, at all events, that we are endeavouring to harmonize our legislation, and if we are here simply to wait on another place, and are expected to say " ditto," we might just as well go home. 10204 9.38 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - I will adopt the suggestion of Senator Keating, and move - That in paragraph c the words " One penny " be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the word " sixpence." Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 13 to 21 agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported with an amendment: report adopted. Bill read a third time. 10204 bill Report adopted. Bill read a third time. 10204 miscellaneous 10204 9.44 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I understand that we shall have to wait for some time for clean copies of the Income Tax Assessment Bill. There are only about half-a-dozen available. 10204 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT In view of the state of business, and in order that clean copies of the Income Tax Assessment Bill may be obtained, I suspend the sitting of the Senate until 10.45 p.m. Sitting suspended from 9.45 to 10.15 p.m. 10204 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. 10204 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Before the Senate considers the message from the other House, I desire to say that when I suspended the sitting at 9.45 p.m. I understood that fair prints of this Bill would not be available for about an hour. Soon after the suspension I learned that fair prints of the B ill had arrived, and, therefore, I took the liberty of calling the Senate together by ringing the bell. If any honorable senator, either on his own behalf or on behalf of any other honorable senator, objects, I will not allow the proceedings to be resumed until such time as that to which I had suspended the sitting has arrived, namely, 10.45 p.m. As no honorable senator objects, either on his own behalf or on behalf of any other honorable senator, business will proceed. Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and Bill read a first time. 10204 10204 10.17 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - I move - That this Bill be now read a second time. This is really the complement to the -Bill which was recently passed fixing the rate of income tax for the present year. The object of the measure is to effect certain amendments in the principal Act, which have been found, as the result of practical experience gained by the officers, to be necessary for the successful working of the Act, and to remove those little frictions which from time to time arise in the working of. a large Act of this character. The Bill makes one or two amendments in the principal Act. Where, for instance, a man is allowed a deduction for a dependant the rate Has been increased from £13 to £26. Likewise where a man is allowed to make a deduction for each of his children the amount has been increased from. £13 to £16. It' has been found necessary to amplify the provisions of the principal Act with regard to official secrecy, so as to enable a free interchange and exchange of information between Commonwealth and State officers. This amplification will lighten the work a good deal, and will be the initial step in leading to what we trust will be the harmonizing and cheapening of these services, as well as making more effective provision in that regard. 10205 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen What clause deals with that? 10205 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL Claus e 3 provides for officers to observe secrecy. The provision reads— Notwithstanding anything contained in this section, the Commissioner, the Assistant Commissioner, or a Deputy Commissioner, may communicate any matter which comes to -his knowledge in the performance of 'his official duties to the Commissioner of Income Tax for any State who has been authorized by legislation to afford similar information to the Commissioner, the Assistant Commissioner, or a Deputy Commissioner. 10205 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - That is a reciprocal provision 1 10205 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL It will be reciprocal between the States and the Commonwealth. It is, perhaps, a bigger alteration than i t appears on paper in the work of practical administration, and we are hopeful of making a. further advance in that direction in the future. The method of assessing the taxable- income of companies is to be amended by inserting a provision that companies are to pay tax on assessable income distributed to members or share or stock-holders who 'are absentees. The companies will be able to pay the income tax, and subsequently deduct the amounts from those with whom the dividends have been paid. 10205 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Insurance 'companies are to be included in the provision. 10205 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL Marin e insurance companies are to be included in the provision dealing with insurance companies which previously only related to fire insurance. The special deductions allowed by the principal Act are proposed to be repealed,, and new provisions inserted. The following statement will show the difference between the existing and proposed reductions: — Under the proposed scheme it is estimated that the taxation will disappear at £500 in regard, to income from personal exertion, and also income derived from property. 10205 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - What clause deals with that? 10205 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL Clause 11 10205 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - What will be the difference in the taxation, taking three or four instances of incomes ranging from £500 to £1,000? 10205 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL I regret that at the moment I am not able to give the information, but I understand that i t averages about 25 per cent, all round. Question resolved in the affirmative Bill read a second time In Committee: Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to. Clause 4 - Section 11 of the principal Act is amended - by omitting from paragraph (e) the words "the War Loan Act (No. 1) 1915," and inserting in their stead the words "a Commonwealth War Loan"; . . . . . ,, . 10205 10.23 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN .--In this clause I notice a 'provision amending the principal Act by omitting from paragraph e of section 11, the words " The War Loan Act(No. 1) 1915," and inserting in their stead the. words, "a Commonwealth War Loan." Owing to the brief period in which the Bill has been in our hands, I am not quite clear as to the effect of that amendment. But if, as it seems to me, it is intended to incorporate in this measure a permanent exemption for all future war loans, the Committee should be informed of that, so that we shall not unwittingly commit ourselves to a declaration of policy as to future war loans. I would like the Minister to say whether this provision is merely intended to legalize the second war loan, or whether it is intended to cover future war loans. 10206 10.25 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - The Government feel that in granting the exemption under the War Loan Act, both Houses deliberately led the people of this country to believe that such exemption would be granted in respect to all war loans. We found that the moment it was intimated that there was going to be a tax on war bonds and inscribed stock the drop in their value was very marked indeed, indicating that we would have to . pay at least 41/2 per cent for war money. The Government felt that they were under an obligation, not so much to a previous Government as to the decision of Parliament to exempt war loans from taxation. 10206 10.27 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I am sorry to hear the statement of the Minister, because it raises the whole question. I have no desire in doing so to cut across the conditions under which previous loans -may have been issued, and if this provision could be so amended as to apply only to those loans which have been floated, I would be content to rest there. If we are now asked under the guise of an Income Tax Bill, to tie our hands as to future loans, I am unable to consent to the provision. What I suggest to the Government is that they should cover all the loans issued to date, and then when a fresh loan is about to be floated, the Parliament will have another opportunity of considering and determining the conditions under which future loans shall be issued. In the short time at my disposal, I have been' unable to ascertain exactly how this provision fits in with the principal Act, but in order to put ourselves on a proper footing, I move - That the words " a Commonwealth War Loan " be- left out. I do not quite know what the effect of their omission would be. 10206 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap What do you propose to put in their place? 10206 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Nothing , because 1 am throwing on the Government the responsibility, the time being too brief for me to look into the matter. All that I am trying to do is to bring the consideration of this Bill to a standstill until we have had an opportunity to study its provisions, and to get from the Government a clearer definition than we have. I am utterly opposed to this policy of saying that for all time these loans shall be exempt from what I regard as a very fair share of taxation. 10206 10.28 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - It was the same lines in the Bill which arrested my attention. I recognise the difficulty with which the Government are confronted in reference to this matter. Provision has been made with regard to the first war loan, referred to here as the war loan of 1915 I take it, though I am not quite sure on the point, that the object of the provision is to make applicable to subsequent war loans the provisions that apply to the first war loan in connexion with the exemption from income tax. 10206 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell Yes 10206 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING Senator Millen has pointed out that the clause will not only achieve that object, but will go further, and if paragraph a remains as i t stands, it will apply to all future war loans the same provisions as apply to war loan No. 1. And the honorable senator has said that i t is desirable that Parliament should have the opportunity to dictate the terms on which each war loan should be floated in the future. I can quite understand that the Government consider it desirable to promote investments in war loans, rather than in some other enterprise, and one of the inducements to such investment is that the interest accruing from a war loan is exempt from income tax. I think that this is not the hour, and the present are not the conditions, under which the Senate should be asked to at Once ratify such a principle. We are being asked to bind ourselves by the use of the phrase " a .Commonwealth war loan" to apply the same provision to a war loan which might be raised sixteen months or two years hence.- I ask the Assistant Minister to agree to confine the application of this amendment of the existing Act to war loans which have so far been issued, and to refrain from asking the Committee to tie the hands of Parliament with regard to future war loans. 10206 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - Since I spoke I have obtained a copy of the main Act, and I should like, by permission of the Committee, to withdraw my amendment, with a view to submitting it in an amended form. The section of the existing Act which we are by this clause invited to amend reads - The following incomes, revenues, and funds shall he exempt from income tax. And paragraph e of the section which is sought to be amended by this Bill reads - The income derived from bonds, debentures, stock, or other securities of the Commonwealth issued under the provisions of War Loan Act No. 1 1916. We have been asked to amend that, and my desire will be attained if the Committee will negative paragraph a of the clause now under consideration. That will leave the existing Income Tax Assessment Act as it stands in this connexion, and it does exempt war loans issued so far. 10207 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating No ; that would cover only war loan No. 1. 10207 K7L 0 0 STORY, William Senator Story - Would not the honorable senator's object be attained by substituting the words " existing Commonwealth war loans " for the words " a Commonwealth war loan " t 10207 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN In any case, in view of the wording of the section I have quoted from the existing Act, i t is necessary for me to ask leave to withdraw my amendment, in order to substitute for i t an amendment which will have the effect of exempting all war loans issued to date, while leaving the Senate a perfectly free hand to consider any proposals for future borrowing. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (by Senator MILLEN) proposed— That the words " a Commonwealth War Loan" be- left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " existing Commonwealth; War Loans." 10207 K3E 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - I suggest that the substituted words should be " Commonwealth war loans authorized before 1st January, 1917 ": 10207 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN Ther e is much in the suggestion of the Assistant Minister, because I am sure honorable senators do not desire that one portion of the bonds or stock of a war loan should be issued under one set of conditions, and another under different conditions. My sole desire, and, I believe, that of the Committee, is not to interfere with what has already been done, whilst leaving Parliament free to consider future loan proposals. I willingly accept the suggestion of the Assistant Minister for the amendment of my amendment. Amendment amended to read as follows: That the words " a Commonwealth War Loan" be left out, with a view to insert in lieu thereof the words " Commonwealth- War Loans authorized up to the first day of January, 1917." 10207 10.39 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER .- I wish the Committee to be quite clear as to what it is doing. The last war loan authorized was for £50,000,000, and of that amount only about £23,000,000 has been borrowed. I should like to know whether it is the desire' of .honorable senators that the unissued balance of that £50,000,000 loan shall come under this provision or not. Personally, I am inclined to support the Government in this matter, because I know that all the money we can borrow in any way will be required for war purposes. I want to be clear whether the words, " Commonwealth War Loans authorized before 1st January," 1917," will cover the balance of the last war loan that has not yet been floated. 10207 10.40 KUL New South Wales 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - The Assistant Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I take it that the effect of my amendment will be to apply this provision to loans so far authorized. The question is whether the Government are likely to float the balance of the last loan, authorized between this and the 1st January. I do not think, that is at all probable. 10207 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER —Eve n though the balance is not floated, it has been authorized. 10207 10.40 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN If we are in a difficulty in connexion with this matter, i t is one for which neither I nor the Senate can take any responsibility. I want a clear pronouncement of what will be incorporated in this law. If there is any difficulty in the matter, I suggest that the amendment might be carried in the way I have proposed, and in the transfer of the B ill from the Senate to another place, Ministers may consult with the draftsman and supply an amendment which will meet the object of the Senate. 10207 10.41 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - I think the Committee is unanimous, that, as far as money already lent to the Commonwealth is concerned,' we have no desire to disturb the conditions on which it was raised ; but so far as money yet to be raised is concerned, we claim to have a free hand in deciding the terms upon which it shall be raised. If Senator Millen adheres to the use of the word " Authorized " in his amendment, the consequence may be that the balance of £27,000,000 not floated of the war loan for £50,000,000 already authorized will escape the scrutiny of this Parliament, so far. as the conditions upon which it is to be floated are concerned. If that be so, I think the intention of the Committee will not be given effect to. 10208 10.43 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - Senator Keating has put the position correctly. The fact is that about £27,000,000 of the last loan authorized by Parliament has not yet been issued, but that loan was advertised as one loan, and the announcement was made to the public that the interest upon the loan would be exempt from State and Federal income tax. I see that with respect to that loan the present Treasurer, in his interim financial statement, said - The proposal already made includes war bonds and inscribed stock as being subject to levy. There are some members who believe that no promise or pledge was given that these bonds should be free from all taxation, and, on examination of the war loan prospectus, that contention can be maintained, as therein it is stated that " all bonds and all transfers of inscribed stock will be free of Commonwealth and State stamp duty, and interest will be free of Commonwealth and State income tax." Clearly they were not to be free from all taxation, but many of the public appear to have been under the . impression that the principal would not be taxed in any way, and the announcement that a levy of one-half per cent, per annum for three years on war bonds, as well as on ordinary wealth, was to be imposed has unsettled the value of these securities, and, in some instances, so I am advised, investments have gone to other countries because of this proposal. The position of the Commonwealth is a dual one. In addition to our intention to increase taxation, we are also a borrower within our territorial limits. We have to consider to what extent certain conditions attached to the loan were advertised. 10208 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen My amendment does not touch the yet unissued balance of the last loan authorized. 10208 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL Yes , i t covers that; and I did not understand that the Committee objected. If honorable senators are prepared to accept the amendment as a compromise, the Government will agree to i t 10208 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - I did not hear the Assistant Minister's concluding remarks. I understand, however, that the acceptance of the amendment will mean that this Parliament will be afforded an opportunity of saying whether all future war loans shall be exempt from taxation.' I do not think that Senator Millen intends that the unsubscribed balance of the loan for £50,000,000, for which applications were recently invited, shall be subject to income tax. Do the Government accept the position that Parliament shall determine whether all future loans shall pay Commonwealth and State income tax? 10208 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Yes 10208 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER .- If I understand the position aright, the amendment will not in any way touch the balance of the war loan which has yet to be issued. If that be so, there is no necessity for that amendment, because whenever any future war loan is projected we shall be free and unfettered. 10208 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen —Bu t we shall not have any Income Tax B ill before us then. This is the measure which grants the exemption. 10208 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - The clause relates to the War Loan Act 1915, and there is a second War Loan Act. 10208 10.48 KVH Queensland 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN . - The amendment of Senator Millen will certainly improve the clause, but I am not enamoured of the fact that it will exempt from taxation the balance of the loan which has been already authorized. In regard to every war loan that has been issued the prospectus has intimated that the interest accruing from the bonds will be free from income tax. I cannot repudiate that arrangement, but I would point out that we have not issued any prospectus in regard to the balance of the loan that has been already authorized, which balance amounts to £27,000,000. 10208 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley But a prospectus was issued in reference to the entire loan of £50,000,000. 10208 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN Technically , my honorable friend is right; but we calle for applications for a loan of £50,000,000, and stated that such applications were to close on a certain date. When that date arrived, the contract was at an end, and we are now at liberty to offer any other terms that we like for the balance of that loan. 10209 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I still think that I can go and buy the bonds. 10209 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN That is so; but 1 the Treasurer has intimated that he proposes to ask for a fresh loan during the current year. He will issue a fresh prospectus in which i t will be stated that applications to subscribe to the loan will close on a certain date. In my judgment we ought not to commit the Commonwealth any further to the vicious principle of exempting war loans from taxation. 10209 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - It is an inducement to people to subscribe the principal. 10209 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN But what we gain iu one way by adopting that course, we lose in another. We have already floated loans aggregating £141,000,000, and the time is rapidly approaching when a very considerable portion of the income of this country will be derived from interest on money invested in those loans. 10209 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - The total loans issued to date do not represent more than about5 per cent, of the annual income of Australia. 10209 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN It is fortunate that this proposal of the Government was discovered in time to effect an alteration in i t. Every time that the matter comes up I shall protest against the creation in this country of a financial aristocracy which is to be free from taxation. ' A man with £100,000 invested in war bonds is at present exempt from all the expenses of government. 10209 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - What is £100,000 ! 10209 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN Then put the amount at £1,000,000. Why should a millionaire who has £1,000,000 invested in war bonds be free from taxation? 10209 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - We are after the principal. 10209 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN I will support the amendment, because i t is a long way preferable to the proposal in the B ill , but, at the same time, the whole principle underlying this sort of legislation is rotten. 10209 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - When applications were invited for subscriptions to a war loan of £50,000,000, the people were given to understand that the interest derived from their war bonds would be exempt from income tax, stamp duty, and, indeed, any other form of taxation. Despite these inducements, however, and notwithstanding that the country is engaged in a life-and-death struggle, we got less than half the amount for which we asked'. Now it is proposed that all future war loans shall be launched on a less favorable market. If we tell the public that we intend to charge income tax, stamp duty, and wealth tax on all moneys invested in future war loans, shall we get the £27,000,000 which represents the balance of the loan which has already been authorized ? I do- not think so. In my opinion, it does not matter very much whether we get the money in this fashion or . not, because there is another and far more satisfactory way of raising it, which I shall' be glad to see put into operation. 10209 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie The honorable senator would be very sorry. 10209 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT 1 would not. I am quite tired of the honorable senator attempting to shield from taxation the men who own the country. I am anxious to see the Commonwealth get as much money as possible to enable it to carry on the war, but I have not the slightest doubt that if we lay i t down that the balance of the loan that has already been authorized shall be subject to income tax and wealth tax 10209 10000 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator McDOUGALL) The honorable senator is not at liberty to discuss that matter. He must confine his remarks to the clause under consideration. 10209 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT It does not very much matter whether the clause is agreed to or not. But I wish to know definitely whether future loans are to be subject to taxation. 10209 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - This amendment will not impose taxation on them. It will merely leave Parliament free. 10209 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT The proposal of the Government will do nothing of the kind. It will subject them to taxation. The amendment of the honorable senator merely relates to loans that have been authorized to date. 10209 JYT Queensland 0 0 FERRICKS, Myles Senator FERRICKS . - I wish to congratulate the Senate on the change that has come over it since the last occasion when this matter was discussed. I recollect that whenSenator Mullan first moved an amendment; with a view to subjecting the interest derived from war loans to State and Federal income tax, only two honorable senators supported him. On the second occasion there were five others, who were described as fanatics, to say nothing of those who supported Senator Stewart's proposal for the non-payment of interest on war loans. I welcome Senators Millen and Keating to the convert ranks. It appears to me only fair that income from interest on war loans should be subject to the same taxation as income from any other source. In connexion with the last loan, we invited applications for £50,000,000, but only £23,000,000 was subscribed. I should like to see the balance of that loan subjected to State and Federal income tax. Seeing that the Commonwealth Government called for a loan of £50,000,000 for war purposes, and only £23,000,000 was subscribed, the moneyed shirkers who did not respond to the call should not be shown any consideration now. 10210 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap They might not have had the money to respond to the call. 10210 JYT 0 0 FERRICKS, Myles Senator FERRICKS Ther e was money here to send to the Argentine for investment, but these financial cold-footers did not think it right to comply with the request made by the Federal Government. 10210 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - The amount subscribed was more than the annual income of the ' Commonwealth. 10210 JYT 0 0 FERRICKS, Myles Senator FERRICKS It did not represent all the available liquid assets of the Commonwealth. When the fate of the Commonwealth is involved, as these people tell us it is, the least they can do is to come right up to the scratch, and the remaining £27,000,000 should not be exempt. If a separate appeal is made to obtain it, I will regard i t as to all intents and purposes a new war loan appeal, and it should be subject to income tax. I urge Senator Millen to come right down t bedrock and exempt no further loans for war purposes from Federal income tax. 10210 11.2 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH . - I am afraid Senator Millen will not accomplish the object he has in view. There will be nothing to prevent the Government bringing down a further authorization and exempting loans to be raised under it from income tax. 10210 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen You would have to get the assent of the Senate. 10210 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Therefor e this decision does not bind the Senate or the Government, although some honorable senators fondly imagine that they are tying the hands of the Government in regard to future loan authorizations. It therefore does not matter a straw whether the amendment is passed or not. 10210 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then agree to it. 10210 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH Why move an amendment which has no effect? I point out to Senators Mullan and Ferricks that unless they are prepared to bring down a compulsory Loan Bill making men subscribe i t is of no use for them to talk as they have been doing. They know the old adage about bringing a horse to water. If the interest rate is fixed too low men will not give their money. At present, under the threat of a tax of i per cent, on capital, money is going abroad. The average tax under this Bill could be Is. in the £1, or 5 per cent. What sort of an effect, therefore, would that have in driving men to foreign countries to invest their money? As a matter of fact, instead of reducing the interest, we may yet have to pay 8 per cent., as Japan did. We asked for £50,000,000, and offered 4£ per cent. Why did we not get it? 10210 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - Because it was not good enough. 10210 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH That is exactly the reason. We' are simply beating the air over an amendment which will not bind either the Government or Parliament. Senator Millen is leading us up a blind alley. Amendment agreed to Clause, as amended, agreed to Clauses 5 to 9 agreed to Clause 10 (Deductions). 10210 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - This is a very comprehensive clause, that seems to strike at many- of the principles of the original measure. Will the Minister briefly explain its significance, purpose, and effect? 10210 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL .- The first two amendments proposed make the intention of the first part of sub-section 1 of section 18 of the principal Act clearer, by specifically stating that the section deals only with assessable income, that is, income which is not exempt, and that the deductions allowable are in respect of expenditure incurred in producing the assessable income. Under amendment c the war-time profits tax payable on the profits of a business earned in 1915-16, and which are being assessed for income tax for 1916-17, will be deductible when ascertaining the taxable income for the 1916-17 assessment. It will be noticed that the new section does not say that the deduction is to be war-time profits tax paid in the year in which the taxable income was derived. The proposal will operate so as to prevent payment of income tax on that part of the profits of the year which will be taken as war-time profits tax. It will authorize the Commissioner of Taxation to, in effect, reopen the income tax assessments based on the 1914-15 income in those cases in which war-time profits tax is also payable on that income, so as to allow refunds of income tax already assessed on that part of the profits which will be taken as war-time profits tax. That is to avoid double taxation. It is proposed to provide in the War-time Profits Tax Assessment Bill a clause authorizing the Commissioner to treat these refunds as a set-off against the amount of war-time profits tax in those cases in which, when the income tax was assessed, it was not practicable .to ascertain the amount of the war-time profits tax which would be deductible. The proviso to - amendment c is a proper one to insert in the Bill, otherwise larger deductions than are justly allowable will be allowed in all those cases in which taxpayers have received refunds on account of overpayment of any of the taxes mentioned. Clause agreed ,to. Clause 11 - Section nineteen of the principal Act is repealed, and the following section inserted in its stead : - 19. (1) In the case of a person (other than a company, an' absentee, or a person without a dependant) there shall be deducted, in addition to the sums set forth in the last preceding section, the sum of One hundred and fifty-six pounds less Five pounds for every Eleven pounds by which the income . exceeds One hundred and fifty-six pounds. When the total taxable income consists partly of income from personal exertion and partly of income from property the deduction under this section shall be apportioned pro rata between the income from each source. In the case of a person (not being an absentee) without a dependant there shall be deducted, in addition to the sums set forth in the last preceding section, the sum. of One hundred pounds less One pound for every, Four pounds by which the income exceeds One hundred pounds.. 10211 11.11 JYX Victoria 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY . - We should have a statement from the " Minister as to how the proposed alterations will affect different members of the community. No one objects to taxation for the furtherance of the war, but there has been such a material alteration in these proposals from those that were under our consideration a short while ago , that an explanation of why the disparities are approved of by the Government is called for from the Minister. Under former taxation proposals, an exemption of £156 was allowed, disappearing when the taxable income reached £1,020. It is proposed now that the exemption shall disappear when the taxable income reaches £500. We were told that the new proposals mean,t, in effect, an increase of 25 per cent, in the taxation on incomes, conveying the impression to most honorable senators that the 25 per cent, increase would be general in its application. But, in actual working, it will not have that effect. In some cases incomes will have to pay an increase of at least 100* percent. 10211 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating 112 per cent 10211 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Whereas , in the case of those in receipt of very big incomes, the increase will amount to about 25 per cent. That arrangement is manifestly unfair. 10211 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley - The Minister should be able to give us some examples. 10211 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I went on to show how unfairly the tax will operate. Under the former proposals, a man in receipt of a taxable income of £400 a year would pay £ 3 19s. Under these proposals he will pay £7 19s. 7d. Under the proposals of the former Treasurer a person with a taxable income of £500 would pay £6 3s., but under this proposal he would pay £12 13s. 3d. 10211 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - More than 100 per cent 10211 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY Yes . Then a man in receipt of a taxable income of £600 a year would, under the former proposal, pay £9 8s. 9d., and under this scheme £16 18s. Id . ; while a man in receipt of a taxable income of £1,500 a year would pay, under the former scheme, £53 18s. Id . , and under this £67 7s. 7d., the increase in the latter case being not quite 25 per cent. The man in receipt of >a taxable income of £2,000 a year would, under the former proposal, pay £87 10s., and under this £109 7s. 6d. 10212 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Still not quite 25 per cent. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY I cannot understand why the Government agreed to such an unfair system of taxation. If there is to be an increase i t should be general in its application, and everybody should pay in proportion to income. If any disparity be made i t should be in the direction of easing the burden on the man with the smaller income. 10212 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - If anything, the increases should be graduated. 10212 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Then agree to it. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator FINDLEY The system seems to be based on unsound lines, and I would like to get from the Minister an explanation of the reasons for this exceptional increase in taxation on the middle-class incomes. 10212 K3E Victoria ALP Assistant Minister 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL . - The point raised by Senator Findley touches on the general policy with regard to exemptions. The general exemption is £156 in the case of a person, other than a company, an absentee, or a person without a dependant, and it will be reduced by £5 for every £11 increase in the taxable income over £156, until it disappears when the total taxable income from all sources reaches £500. In the case of a person not being an absentee, and having no dependants, the general exemption will be £100. This will be reduced . by £1 for every £4 by which the taxable income exceeds £100. so that the exemption will disappear when the total taxable income reaches £500. I pointed out when I was referring to this matter at the time, that the notes handed to me showed that the exemption had been altered, and that the average rate of increase was 25 per cent. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley But i t is over 100 per cent, in some cases. 10212 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL I regret that I have not the tables by me, although I endeavoured to get them when Senator Findley made an inquiry upon the point. I presume the honorable senator is fairly well satisfied with his calculations. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - They represent the rates so far as I am able to work them out. 10212 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen They are approximately correct 10212 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - There is no doubt about that. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley I might tell the Minister that they are not Mr. Knibbs' figures. 10212 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL I have some figures indicating the position under the proposed average increase of 25 per cent. These show that a taxable income of £500 would, under the old system, pay £ 6 3s., and under the new, £10 3s. Id. , with 25 per cent, increase, £2 10s. 9d., making a total, £12 13s. 10d., the increase being £6 10s. lOd. A taxable income of £700 would, under the old system, pay £13 5s., under the new £16 8s. Id . , 25 per cent, increase, £ 4 2s., or a total of £20 10s. Id . , the increase in this case being £ 7 5s. Id. A taxable income of £1,000 under the old system would pay £20 17s. 3d., under the new £28 2s. 6di, with 25 per cent, increase, £7 7s., or a total of £35 3s. Id . , the increase being £ 7 5s. lOd. 10212 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The Minister's figures show that the increase on a taxable income of £700 is as great as the increase on the taxable income of £1,000. 10212 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL Yes. - In the one case i t works out at £7 5s. Id . , and in the other at £7 5s. lOd. The Government are aware, of course, that this represents heavy taxation. 10212 JYX 0 0 FINDLEY, Edward Senator Findley - We are not complaining about the weight of taxation so much as the iniquity of its incidence. 10212 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL A s a matter of fact, in its operation this new scheme is more scientific than any previous proposal. 10212 KVH 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator Mullan No . The richer the man is the lighter the increase. 10212 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL This is war time, and an increase of taxation is inevitable. The Government adopted the scheme after mature consideration. 10212 11.25 KPE Tasmania 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING . - It will be remembered that when we were discussing the former Income Tax Assessment Bill I asked the Minister in charge if he would give some explanation of the parabolic curve of ' taxation which then expressed the formula for taxing incomes, and the Minister simply assured the Senate that it was a line laid down by Mr. Knibbs. We accepted that assurance, but I did so under protest, and now what do we find ? The Government propose to increase the income tax, but instead of the curve being convex it has taken concave shape so far as certain incomes are concerned. It is now not really a curve at all, but a sinuous line', and, as a matter of fact, the exact increase levied upon individuals in receipt of incomes between £300 and £800 a year comes to practically the same amount in £ s. d. as the extra sum to be exacted from men with incomes of over £1,000 a year, ls this equitable? I do not think that any honorable senator can justify the incidence of this scheme. On a former occasion I deemed it necessary to criticise the formula applied to the assessment of incomes, and now, when an attempt is being made to increase the demands on the people of this country, can it be said that the call is being made in proportion to income, as was the case before this extra taxation became necessary ? 10213 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator Turley No. 10212 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator KEATING nde r this scheme we are calling on the men in receipt of from £300 to £800 to furnish an extra levy almost exactly the same in amount as the extra call being made on men in receipt of £1,500 a year. Senator Findley has done a great service to Parliament and to the country by exposing the provisions of this Bill, and honorable senators ought to feel indebted to him. When I was speaking on this matter in connexion with the previous Assessment Bill , I said that i t would be necessary for the Government to get out ready reckoners, so that the people would be able to ascertain how much would be levied on their incomes, and now, when we are endeavouring to increase the revenue from income tax, we .find that a largely increased levy is to be made upon those who are in receipt of the smaller incomes. I would sooner let this Bill go altogether, and allow the other House to consider i t at some other time, than to be a party to perpetrating on the middle classes of this community the injustices sought to be imposed by this measure. 10213 11.29 K8W Queensland 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY . - This is another evidence of the effect of introducing legislation just at a time when honorable senators are anxious to get away to their homes ; and I can see looming in the distance the time when, if the. Government introduce measures like this, the Senate will simply adjourn over the holidays and resume to go on with the business.- Is it fair that the Senate should be asked to consider a measure like this? In the first place, the Bill brought down was just the taxing Bill. The Government have now brought down a complicated measure which one could not thoroughly understand without devoting a day or two of solid work to the task of comparing it with the original Act. We were allowing this Bill to pass almost without any criticism when this question was raised. On the motion for the second reading of the Bill I asked the Minister, by way of interjection, whether he would give us some examples of how this proposed amendment of the Act would work out, and he replied that he would do so later on. Senator Findley had already worked out what would be the extent of the increase of taxation in respect of a number of/ incomes, and he has shown that under this proposal men who are in receipt of the smaller incomes of from £300 to £700 or £800 a year will be called upon to bear a greater share of this increased tax than will these in receipt of larger incomes. I should like to know whether the Government deliberately laid themselves out to do this. Did they merely say, " We want an increase of 25 per cent, in the tax," without taking care to see that the bulk of the increase would not fall upon those in receipt of the smaller incomes ? I believe it would be better either to send this Bill back to another place for further consideration or to allow the whole question to stand over till we meet again. The Bill, even if passed now, would not be put in force before the date on which it is proposed to re-assemble. 10213 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating We could strike out this clause now, and that would settle the matter. 10213 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY Quite so. 10213 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - As another place has already adjourned till to-morrow, there is no reason why we should pit all night. The honorable senator should move that progress be reported. 10213 K8W 0 0 TURLEY, Henry Senator TURLEY The Minister should do that. 10213 11.34 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I think it would be wise to report progress and allow this question to stand over till to-morrow morning. If I am any judge of the temper of the Committee I think this clause is likely to be struck out, so that the Government will do well to come prepared to-morrow with something to take its place. Motion (by Senator Russell) proposed - That progress be reported. Question put. The Committee divided. 15 12 Majority ... ... 3 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to; progress reported. 10214 special adjournment Motion (by Senator Lynch) agreed to - That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until 11 o'clock a.m. to-morrow. 10214 miscellaneous The following paper was presented: - The War. - Report on the Typhus Epidemic at Gardelegen, by the Government Committee on the Treatment by the Enemy of British Prisoners of War. (Paper presented to British Parliament). 10214 bill Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that it had agreed to the Senate's amendment in this Bill. 10214 adjournment 10214 10214 11.41 KRZ Western Australia ALP Minister for Works 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH .- I move - That the Senate do now adjourn. I wish to clear up a few arrears of work that have accumulated within the last few days. I have first a statement to make in reference to Senator Gardiner's' remarks concerning a number of officers who have qualified for commissions in Australia, and for whom it has been found impossible to find positions. Senator Gardiner suggested, first of all, that these officers should be sent to the front, and in the alternative that they should be sent to the Old Country, and the British authorities asked to find places for them. The honorable senator is quite justified in the anxiety he has displayed in regard to these men, but there are difficulties in the way of dealing with them satisfactorily. In the first place, the men at the front to-day who are eligible for promotion would naturally feel aggrieved if men coming fresh from Australia were placed over their heads. Then with respect to the second suggestion, we learn that in the camps in Great Britain special schools of instruction have been established for the training of men who have returned from the field of battle, and they are qualifying as commissioned and noncommissioned officers in those schools of instruction. To replace them with men sent fresh from Australia would raise just the same difficulty. It is clear, therefore, that the matter is beset with difficulties which were not apparent at the outset. Senator Millen, I believe, made the same suggestion as did Senator Gardiner. 10214 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen I made the suggestion that the Government should communicate with the Imperial Government with a view to asking them to absorb these officers. I merely wished the suggestion considered, because I cannot expect an answer from the honorable senator just now. 10214 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH The difficulties I have enumerated were mentioned to me by the Defence authorities for the purpose of explanation in the Senate. The suggestion made by Senator Millen will, of course, be attended to. Senator Millen yesterday asked a question with regard to the permanent guard. He asked whether i t was part of the scheme of defence, and whether it would continue longer than the duration of the war. The answer supplied to me is that the object is to provide sentries for factories, munition works, etc, and that the guard is only to exist during the period of the war. The next question I have to deal with is a deferred question by Senator McKissock, . which appears on the business-paper to-day. The honorable senator asked— If, in relation to ChriBtraas leave for soldiers in Australian military camps, he will eliminate travelling time from the leave of soldiers whose homes are distant from the places in which they are encamped, in order that they may be enabled to take full advantage of such leave T The answer supplied is as follows:— Approval has been given for leave to be granted to members of the Australian Imperial Force on Sunday, the 24th, Monday, 25th, Tuesday, 26th, and Wednesday, 27th of December, 1916, and on Sunday, 31st December, 1816, Monday, the 1st, and Tuesday, 2nd January, 1917. Military Commandants have been authorized to grant leave on Saturday, 23rd December, 1916, to men who desire to go home for Christmas, but who, on account of the distance from home, cannot reach there unless leave is given on 23rd December, 1916. Another postponed question is one asked by Senator Ready. He asked— Is the Minister aware that cases are heing brought under the notice of members of the Senate of men who were called up under the recent proclamation for military service being refused reinstatement in their former positions by certain employers Does the Government intend taking any action to prevent such occurrences ? The reply is- Yes. The Attorney-General's Department has given the opinion that section 134 of the Defence Act does not apply in the case of those called up under Fart IV. of the Act. If this is found to be so, the matter will be specially dealt with by regulation under the War Precautions Act. A question was put by Senator Mullan with respect to the publication in the press of the manifesto issued to the Australian Imperial Force in connexion with the referendum. The answer I have to give to the honorable senator's question is that there is no objection to such manifesto appearing in the press. Senator Needham made an inquiry concerning the proposed Industrial Commission to America. He wished to know the intention of the Government, and whether, if they had arrived at a decision to send the Industrial Commission, an announcement of the personnel of the Commission would soon be made. I have to say that the sending of an Industrial Commission to the United States of America has not yet been considered by the present Government Senator O'Keefe raised a question as to financial standing of coal mining companiess in NBW South Wales. I have a reply from the secretary to the Prime Minister tb the effect that the Government is not in a position at present to supply the information desired by Senator O'Keefe, but i t has communicated with the Premier of New South "Wales in the hope that he will supply the necessary information, as i t is through his Government alone that the information can he obtained. Then there was a further postponed question by Senator Ready, who asked the Assistant Minister— Is he aware whether many complaints have been publicly made as to the high rates of steam-ship freights and fares between Tasmania and the mainland, and King Island and Victoria and Tasmania? Will the Government bring the whole question of these freights and fares before the Inter-State Commission, or the Australian and Tasmanian. Prices Commissioners, for full investigation? The answer is- Specific complaints have not been made These matters are provided for in the War Precautions Prices Begulations, and inquiries will be undertaken. 10215 K2D 0 0 READY, Rudolph Senator Ready - I can give the honorable senator specific complaints if he wants them. 10215 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator LYNCH We shall be glad to have them. 10215 11.50 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I regret the answer given by Senator Lynch as to those officers, who, at great inconvenience and expense to themselves, have qualified for commissions. I take the answer as an attempt to reply to the arguments I put forward the other day. I was not, however, putting the case with a view to argument, but simply stating a fact that was- clear to every one, namely, that this represents the tearing up of a "scrap of paper." Here we have capable, willing young men, who are tossed aside simply because there is some present difficulty. I have no desire to prevent the men at the front from getting promotion, but we have here a number of highly-trained, efficient officers, anxious to get to the front, and it is our duty to send them there. 10215 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch As officers? 10215 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER As emergency officers. The country, I am sure, would not begrudge the expense, seeing that, in the future, we could have the advantage . of the'services of men who have seen real fighting. The position is so serious that I feel sure the Minister has not really considered it in giving his answer. In Victoria, there are thirty-five young men, fresh from the training school, and yet they are told, at a day's notice, that their services are not required, though we are at war. I am sure that, amongst the Australian officers at the front, there could be found as many who could be well given a spell. Late as the hour is, I could not allow the Minister's reply to pass without again trying to seriously impress upon the Government .the urgency of giving proper consideration to this matter. 10216 11.54 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - I thank the Minister for Works for replying to the' question that I addressed to him privately this afternoon in connexion with the proposal of the previous Government to send an Industrial Commission to America. On the 30th November I asked whether the Government had given further consideration to the question, and, if so, when they would be in a position to announce the personnel of the Commission. The reply I received from. Senator Pearce then Was that the matter was " under the consideration of the Government." To-day, however, the Minister for Works tells us that the question has not yet been considered by this Government. With all due deference to the honorable gentleman and his Government, I think it is quite time' that the question was determined yea or nay. During the absence of the Prime Minister in England, Senator Pearce, who was Acting Prime Minister, was at a certain function in Melbourne, presided over by Mr. Brooks,, who suggested that such a Commission should be sent to America. To that suggestion the Acting Prime Minister practically agreed, and applications were called for from the different States for the nomination of representatives of employees and employers. 10216 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie They fell out amongst themselves 10216 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM I do not know whether that is so or not; all I know is that some of the States acted on the suggestion) and nominated three representatives of the employees and three representative of the employers, from which the Government had to select one of each, representative, as far as possible, of the particular industries into which the Commission would inquire. ' Applications were also' called for the position of secretary, and for a journalist, to accompany the Commission, and I understand that these invitations have been responded to for the respective positions. It would be wise on the part of the Government of the day to say whether or not this Commission will be appointed. I am not saying whether i t should or should not; but, in justice to the applicants for the various positions, a decision should be arrived at. 10216 K3E ALP 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator Russell - This Government were not pledged to the appointment of a Commission, and it was never announced as part of their policy. 10216 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM I have not said that it was part of the Government's policy; but Senator Pearce told us that the Government would give the proposal its consideration—the s Government. Tonight,, however, Senator Lynch informs us that " t h i s " Government have not considered it yet. 10216 KRZ ALP 1 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - They have not considered a number of other things besides ! 10216 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM Ther e may, I admit, be more important matters; but why should not the Government make up its mind at once, and thus relieve the anxiety of the men who have applied for the - positions ? Before we rise for the Christmas holidays, we ought to be told whether the present Government will act on the suggestion of the previous Government, members of which are in the present Government. I ask Senator Lynch to intimate when, if he can, this Government will consider and determine' the whole question. Question resolved in the affirmative 10216 23:59:00 Senate adjourned at 11.59, p.m