1918-01-10 7 2 0 SENATE 2876 0 Senate. 1918-01-10 The President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 2876 miscellaneous 2876 2876 KUL New South Wales NAT Acting Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I have to announce that His Excellency the Governor-General has been pleased to trust to the Right Honorable William Morris Hughes, P.C., a commission for the formation of a new Ministry. The new Ministers have not yet been sworn in. That ceremony is to take place at 4 o'clock, and I suggest that it might meet the convenience of honorable senators if you, sir, adjourned the Senate to that hour, or to such time thereafter as the bells may be caused to ring. 2876 10000 0 0 GIVENS, Thomas The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens - I cannot adjourn the Senate as suggested by the honorable senator; all I call do is to suspend the sitting until the time referred to. In view of the statement of the Leader of the Senate, and to meet the convenience of honorable senators generally, I shall resume the chair at 4.30 p.m., or such hour thereafter as the bells may be rung. 2877 miscellaneous 2877 KUL New South Wales NAT Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I ask leave of the Senate to make a statement. 2877 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens - Is it the pleasure of the Senate thai the Minister for Repatriation have leave to make a statement? Honorable Senators. - Hear, Hear! Leave granted. 2877 KUL New South Wales NAT Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - As I informed honorable senators yesterday, the late Government placed its resignation in the hands of the Governor-General. It is only necessary, at this moment, to say that, consequent upon the result of the referendum, the Government considered it its duty to resign unconditionally, and to offer no advice to His Excellency. The circumstances under which the resignations were made, and subsequent steps taken by His Excellency to form a Government, have already been made public, and it is not my present intention to refer to them any further than to lay upon the table a memorandum by His Excellency setting out the views of the Governor-General. His Excellency has been pleased to intrust the Right Honorable W. M. Hughes with a commission to form a new Government. That commission has been completed, and I now beg to announce the personnel of the new Government: - Prime Minister and Attorney-General - The Right Honorable William Morris Hughes, P.O. Minister of State for the Navy. - The Right Honorable Joseph' Cook, P.O. Treasurer - The Right Honorable Sir John Forrest, P.O., G.O.M.G. Minister of State for Defence. - Senator the Honorable George Foster Pearce. Minister of State for Repatriation. - Senator the Honorable Edward. Davis Millen. Minister of State for Works and Railways. - The Honorable William Alexander Watt. Minister of State for Home and Territories. - The Honorable Patrick McMahon Glynn, EL.C. Minister of State for Trade and Customs. - The Honorable Jens August Jensen. Postmaster-General - The Honorable William Webster. Vice-President of the Executive Council - The Honorable Littleton Ernest Groom. Honorary Minister. - Senator the Honorable Edward John Russell. 2877 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Limpets ! Limpets cling to the rocks. 2877 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - Supply for public and war services is urgent, and Parliament will be asked to authorize the necessary provision. 2877 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - High explosives would be needed to shift this Ministry. 2877 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I thought that I was authorized to make' a statement. Experience in the government of this country leads to the conclusion that certain changes in the Government must be made in the near future with a view to strengthening it, and making it more efficient to meet the increasing pressure of war duties, and those economic and other conditions arising out of the war. The Government's one desire is to bend all its energies to enabling Australia to do its duty in this great war, and to grapple with those infinitely complex and difficult domestic problems that now confront us, and it earnestly invites the cooperation and assistance of the Parliament and the people. The Government intends to meet Parliament before the expiration of the proposed Supply, when the Government proposals, together with its immediate policy, will be submitted. The memorandum of His Excellency the Governor-General dealing with the matter to which I referred a few moments ago will, I hope, be laid on the table of the Senate before the sitting closes. 2877 Questions 2877 2877 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator LONG - I ask the Leader of the new, but same old, Government, whether the change of Government that is contemplated in the future has, as is rumoured, any reference to the creation of a new portfolio, namely, that of Minister of the Commonwealth Police Department ! 2877 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I would like to express my personal opinion that no change of Government in the future is contemplated. For the rest, I must ask the honorable senator to give notice of his question. 2878 bill Assent reported to the following Bills : - Australian Soldiers' Repatriation Bill. Supply Bill (No. 3) 1917-18. Income Tax Bill. Ministers of State Bill. 2878 papers The following papers were presented : - Dominions Royal Commission - Papers laid before the Commission, 1914- 1917. (Paper presented to British Parliament.) Minutes of evidence taken in the Central and Western Provinces of Canada in 1916. (Paper presented to British Parliament.) The War - Reports on the Treatment by the Germans of British Prisoners and Natives in German East Africa. (Paper presented to British Parliament.) Entertainments Tax Assessment Act 1916. - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1917, No. 227. Estate Duty Assessment Act 1914. - Regulations Statutory Rules 1917, No. 267. Income Tax Assessment Act 1915-1916.- Regulations- Statutory Rules 1917, No. 280. Lands Acquisition Act 1916 - Land acquired at - Booroomba, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes. Congwarra, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes. Cottesloe, Western Australia - For Defence purposes. Cuppacumbalong, partly in Federal Territory and partly in New South Wales - For Federal Capital purposes. Gigerline, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes. Gigerline, Federal Territory, and Burra, partly in Federal Territory and partly in New South Wales - For Federal Capital purposes. Leeton, New South Wales - For Postal purposes. Port Augusta, South Australia - For Railway purposes. Tuggeranong, Federal Territory - For Federal Capital purposes. Townsville, Queensland - For Defence purposes. Naturalization Act 1903-1917. - Regulations amended, &c. - Statutory Rules 1917, No. 296. Norfolk Island. - Ordinance No. 1 of 1917. - Importation of plants. Norfolk Island - Report of the Administrator for year ended 30th June, 1917. Northern Territory. - Ordinances of 1917 - No. 9 - Stamp. No. 10 - Darwin Pound. Papua. - Ordinances of 1917 - No. 4. - Supplementary Appropriation (No. 2), 1916-1917. No.5.- Supply, 1917-1918 (No. 1). No. 6. - Supplementary Appropriation, 1916- 1917 (No. 3). No. 8. - Real Property. No. 10. - Appropriation, 1917-1918. Public Service Act 1902-1916- List of Permanent Officers of the Commonwealth Public Service as on 30th June, 1917. Temporary Employees. - Annual Return for financial year 1916-1917. Appointments, Promotions, &c. - Department of the Treasury - C. J. Cornell. Department of Home and Territories - O. H. Nielson. Department of Trade and Customs - R. B. Curd. R. Kidston. H. E. Neal. Postmaster-General's Department - H. W. Hyett. E. Johns. H. F. Nevin. J. T. Robinson. McK. Willoughby. Regulations amended, &c - Statutory Rules 1917, No. 244- No. 266. War-time Profits Tax Assessment Act 1917. - Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1917, No- 300. Defence Act 1903-1917- Report on the Royal Military College of . Australia, 1916 1917. Regulations amended, &c. - Statutory Rules- 1917, Nos. 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 241, 248, 249, 250, 261, 262, 268, 269, 270, 276, 279, 287, 288, 292, 297, 312, 313. War Precautions Act 1914-1916. - Regulations amended, &c. - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 242, 245, 251, 255, 259, 260, 272, 274, 275,. 278, 285, 298, 310, 311. Postmaster-General's Department: Seventh Annual Report, 1916-1917. Customs Act 1901-1916 - Proclamations prohibiting exportation (except under certain conditions) of - Pig-iron, Machinery, and Manufactures of Metals (dated 17th October, 1917). Goods to Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands (dated 24th October, 1917). Margarine (dated 14th November,. 1917). Regulations amended &c. - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos, 256, 257, 258, 273, 307. Commerce (Trade Descriptions) Act 1905. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 286, 295. Lighthouses Act 1911. - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1917, No. 331. Post and Telegraph Act 1901-1916. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 199, 215, 246, 247, 284, 305, 309, 321, 329, 330. River Murray Waters Act 1915. - Report of proceedings of River Murray Commission from 31st January to 30th June, 1917; together with copies of progress reports submitted by the States of New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia, regarding investigations and works carried out for the purposes of the River Murray Agreement during the same period. Shale Oil Bounty Act 1917. - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1917, No. 277. 2879 miscellaneous 2879 KTD NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL - Will the Leader of the Senate be kind enough to lay on the table papers giving the cost of the prosecutions under the Mother Goose Regulations of the Prime Minister ? 2879 miscellaneous 2879 K8L NEW SOUTH WALES NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS .-I move- That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire as to the extent that intoxicating: liquor is adversely affecting outgoing and returned soldiers, and the best method of dealing with the sale of intoxicating liquor during the period of the war and of demobilization and repatriation, with power to call for papers and witnesses. 2.. That the Committee; consist of Senators Foll, Lieut.-Colonel Bolton, Grant, Colonel Rowell, Guy, Buzacott, and the mover. It is usual when a senator moves for a Select Committee in this Chamber to give reasons at some length why it should he appointed; but I do not purpose taking up time this afternoon in giving such reasons, because I think they are not necessary. It is evident to all senators that something must be done in this direction. Probably there will be a difference of opinion among the members of this Chamber about what should be done, and the methods to be adopted; but I venture to say that there is no difference of opinion among them that something should be done. I cannot but express some regret that the Government have not already done more than they hare in this matter. In Canada, there is total prohibition in this relation, and America has gone a long way on the same lines.. I regret that England has done very little, and that we in Australia, having done so much in the way of advanced legislation in. other directions, have lagged so far behind in this matter. It would be easy for me, and for every other senator, to give a large number of instances of fathers and mothers whose hearts are well-nigh broken, not so much because their sons have come back halt and maimed from the field of battle - since they realized that they might have to pay that price when they allowed their sons to go - but because in so many cases they have come back, and are now here in Australia, under the influence of drink. 2879 JYF 0 0 EARLE, John Senator Earle - I believe that is very much exaggerated. 2879 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - I hope it is; but I could easily give quite a number of such cases. I do not purpose doing so, because I think it is unnecessary at this stage, and because they would necessarily have to be published in Hansard The Minister for Repatriation (Senator Millen) has put before us a very great scheme, which will tax the utmost capacity of the ablest and most gifted in our community to carry out successfully. Some earnest, sincere citizens believe that the drink traffic will somewhat hamper the carrying out of that repatriation scheme. They may be. mistaken, but they hold that view. We are asked to utilize every ounce of energy and efficiency in the community in carrying on the war, but there are those who say that we are handicapped by the drink traffic in utilizing our forces to the best advantage. They may be mistaken, and some members say that those statements are exaggerated. With all the views I hold on temperance - and honorable senators know they are fairly strong - I sincerely trust that they are exaggerated, for the sake of our common humanity and the common sorrow that we are sharing' at the present moment. The Committee which I am asking for will let the Senate and the Government and the people know whether they are exaggerated or not. That honorable senators generally realize that something ought to be done is proved by the fact that not one member whom I have asked to join the Committee has refused.. They all offered their services immediately I approached them. Among them are three who have been to the Front. They offered their services at once, and we shall have the advantage of their presence on the Committee as men directly associated with the returned soldiers. 2879 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Does the Committee propose to visit the Front, and see how liquor is served out there ? 2879 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - I do not say I have been to the Front; but I have been to Salisbury Plain, where I found a dry canteen and a wet canteen, and I am very sorry there is a wet canteen there. I have asked senators to act on the Committee irrespective of whether they are temperance advocates or not. Senators with different shades of political opinion have agreed to act. 2880 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - There are a few of them under suspicion. 2880 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - On the question of temperance, all the members of the proposed Committee are not unanimous, and the Committee will he able to present to the Senate an unbiased and unprejudiced report, based absolutely on the evidence taken, irrespective of any views which its members may personally hold on the great social question of temperance. I regard this motion as urgent, because a great deal more ought to have been done already in connexion with this matter. The fact that more has not been done is one of my reasons for submitting the motion, and I take it that everything will be done to facilitate the work of the Committee so that the report may be placed before the Senate at an early date. This is not a party question. Senator Guy has been good enough to accept membership of it, and when I asked him if he would second the motion he very kindly consented to do so. I leave the motion in the hands of the Senate with every confidence. 2880 KNN Tasmania 0 0 GUY, James Senator GUY .- I do not propose to do more than add a few words to those that have been already uttered. My views on this question are very well known. A large number of people in the community believe there is room for improvement in the manner in which we are dealing with the liquor trade in relation to our troops. I have read many strong statements on this subject, though I am not prepared to say they are all absolutely correct. 2880 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Are you prepared to urge a reduction in price? 2880 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator GUY - No ; I would increase the price if I had my way. Some of the statements I have referred to, and which were contained in books that were suppressed, are very strong from the temperance side. 2880 JYF 0 0 EARLE, John Senator Earle - You cannot beat the temperance people for making strong statements._ 2880 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator GUY - But the people on the other side are also capable of making very strong statements. These allegations with regard to the effect of the liquor traffic ought to receive consideration. If they are true, it is the duty of this Legislature to take the necessary action. The statements have appeared in some of the leading papers in England. They have been made by public men, from Mr. Lloyd George, the Prime Minister, downwards, and they cannot be allowed to go uncontradicted or without inquiry, for it has been said that thousands and thousands of our troops have been put out of action because of this traffic. It is our duty, therefore, to inquire into the allegations and see whether they are true or not. 2880 K0F Western Australia NAT Minister for Defence 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE .- As this motion deals particularly with soldiers going to, and returning from, the Front, Senator Millen has asked me to take charge of it on behalf of the Government. I should like briefly to indicate to the Senate the attitude which the Government take up in regard to the matter. The Government welcome an inquiry, because we have been endeavouring to deal with this subject as one of our responsibilities to our soldiers. Pressure has been brought to bear upon us from time to time by those who are keen on the question of temperance reform, who have urged that the powers of the War Precautions Act should be used in a more drastic manner to achieve reform in the liquor trade. The Government took the view, however, that they were not entitled to use that Act as a measure of social reform, though they were entitled to use it for the purpose of assisting in carrying on the war. 2880 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - And they have done it effectively, too. 2880 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Outrageously. 2880 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The Government felt that action in this direction was justifiable, but that they would not have been justified in using the War Precautions Act as a means for the advancement of social reform, because it could then be used as a means for advancing a great many other reforms. If honorable senators will look at the question in this way they will realize that the Government would not have been justified in taking such action, because it has to be remembered that full power, even to the extent of prohibition, reposes with the State Legislatures. This is one of the matters that comes within the scope of State legislative authority, though there is also power to bring this reform within the scope of the Federal Constitution if the electors of Australia authorize the Commonwealth Parliament to deal with the liquor question as a whole. It will be seen, therefore, that if any Government attempted to use the power of the War Precautions Act to advance this particular view of the liquor question they would be open to the charge of endeavouring to do indirectly what they were not prepared to do directly by the ordinary legislative process. With that qualification we have endeavoured to use the full powers of the War Precautions Act to protect the interests of our soldiers in Australia, those going from Australia, and those returning to this country. Senator Thomas said that we had done less than Canada or the United States. I take it, however, that he means the Commonwealth. If he means Australia as a whole his statement is not quite accurate; and I remind him that the constitutional position of both Canada and the United States is somewhat different from that of the Commonwealth. The Canadian Government have full power to deal with the liquor question at any time, and the constitutional powers of the United States of America are much wider than ours. Australia as a whole - taking the Commonwealth and State Governments - has done a very great deal in restricting the liquor trade since the commencement of the war. Any unbiased person looking at the question impartially must admit that this is so. Six o'clock closing is now pretty well universal, whereas before the war hotels were allowed to remain open until 11 o'clock at night. By that restriction alone the trading hours of hotels were reduced by about 40 per cent., and when it is remembered that this reform was achieved without compensation to the trade, it will be admitted that the restriction is very severe. I believe that that has been beneficial to the people as a whole. It is. well when dealing with the question to recognise what has been done. In addition to that, we have dry canteens in all our camps. The establishment of dry canteens was a much debated proposal. It is by no means universally believed that the dry canteen is better than the wet canteen. 2881 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - Does the honorable senator now hold the opinion on that matter which he held when it was dealt with? 2881 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I am of opinion, as the result of experience, that the dry canteen is better than the wet canteen. At one time I thought that the wet canteen was the better, but the result of my experience has demonstrated to me that the dry canteen is better than the wet canteen. 2881 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - The honorable senator handed over his opinion to the Federal War Council. He would not take the responsibility of determining the matter. 2881 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I do not know that I handed over any of my responsibility. I say that I hold the. opinion now, as the result of my experience, that the dry canteen is better than the wet canteen. 2881 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator Needham - The honorable senator handed the matter over to the Federal War Council. 2881 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I do not know to what Senator Needham is referring, but he can explain his interjection when speaking to the motion. We have the dry canteen in the camps of Australia to-day. Senator Thomas has admitted that in that respect we are, from his point of view, ahead of Great Britain and other countries, including France and Italy. In addition to the establishment of dry canteens in the various camps, we have exercised a very stringent power under the War Precautions Act, which is bitterly resented by those interested in the liquor trade, but under which it is possible today, whenever a transport is passing through a port of call, to give the soldiers leave to go ashore. There was a time in the history of the war when the men on transports had to be detained on board at ports of call because the hotels were allowed to remain open. Our experience was that if the soldiers were allowed to land many of them got under the influence of liquor, there was much injury done to their health, and there were many absentees when the transport left the port. When large numbers of invalided men began to return to Australia, after they had been many weeks on board before arriving at a port of call in Australia, they were anxious to obtain leave. As a result of giving them shore leave when there was no restriction on the hotels, disgraceful scenes were witnessed in sonia of: our poets. Men lost control of themselves, probably after taking only a glass or two of liquor, because "of their weakened condition, and suffered great injury to their health. As a result of our experience in these matters, we now close the hotels in the ports of call, and the men are given shore leave.. It was noticeable, when the hotels in the ports of call remained open, that large numbers of absentees were left behind when the transports left, but since the hotels have been closed every man given leave turns up, and the transports go away with their full complement. This is flue, not merely to the closing of hotels, but to the patriotic efforts of organizations at the various ports of call to provide recreation and amusement, and to give the men a good time while they are ashore. In the case of transports carrying invalided men, the doctors reported, when the hotels were allowed to remain open, that the men should not be given shore leave because of the injury done to their health; but they are now in favour of giving the men shore leave because they say that it is beneficial to their health, and, they come back to the ship better than when they went ashore. 2882 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - - There are many uncomplimentary remarks made about the Minister for Defence in some of the'se places,, and from sober men, too. ' 2882 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - That is not hews to me. I am well aware of it. * My correspondence file shows that quite clearly. 1 am, however,, stating certain facts in order to remind Senator Thomas that we have done something. What we have done has been, done because we have felt that the interests of the soldiers were directly involved. The matters with which we have dealt in this connexion are those which touch the soldier's health, well-being, recreation and leave. The temperance reformers, however, propose that we should go beyond that, and should use the powers of the War Precautions Act to restrict the hours for the sale of liquor generally, not merely in the interests of the soldiers, but as affecting the general community. I want to direct the attention of the proposed Committee to the- question of how far we: should be justified in- using the powers- of the War Precautions. Act. for that general purpose, when there is another way in which that could be achieved,, and that is by the exercise of the legislative powers of the Commonwealth. I should like the Committee also to consider how far the matter is one which comes within the scope of State legislation and. how far it come.-* within the scope of Commonwealth legislation. There is another question I invite the proposed Committee- to. take into consideration, and that, is the question of compensation to those interested in the liquor trade. I have never been a friend of the liquor trade. I have been a temperance man all my life, and an advocate of restrictive legislation dealing with the trade. At the same time I recognise that when we license a trade and permit it to- be carried on under our law,, while we have the right to restrict, and. if we wish,, prohibit altogether the sale: of liquor, on the other hand, the view that in such a case those engaged in the trade are entitled to compensation should receive consideration. 2882 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Does that come within the scope of the reference to the proposed Committee? 2882 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - If it does not I think it- should. I think the question of compensation should be considered by the proposed Committee. It is one which; those interested in the- liquor trade are now raising with the Government. 2882 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - So far as the terms of the motion go it might or might not come within the reference to the Committee. . ^ 2882 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The motion proposes that the Committee should be appointed to consider the extent that intoxicating liquor is adversely affecting outgoing and returned soldiers, and the best method of dealing with the sale of intoxicating liquor during the period of the war and of demobilization and repatriation. I think that the question of compensation would come within the scope of that reference. The Committee will have to consider the best methods of dealing with the matter, and if they propose further restrictions upon the sale of liquor I am satisfied that the advocates of the liquor trade will put it to them as they have put it to the Government, that if there is to be restriction of sale there should be' compensation. 2883 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - The Committee should .not report as to .restriction .unless it considers the question of compensation. 2883 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I believe that the members of the Committee will have to consider that aspect of the question. " I have no doubt that those concerns 1 in the liquor trade coming before the Committee will make, a claim for compensation, and the claim is certainly arguable. Though I do not wish to be understood as admitting such a .claim, I, trust. that the Committee will take the matter into consideration. I have only to. add that the Government will welcome the appointment of the proposed Committee. I trust that it will thoroughly investigate the question involved from every point of view. We have a responsibility to the men who enlist, from the time of their enlistment until they are discharged and handed over to the repatriation authorities, to do all we can to protect their health in every way and to see that no"thing is allowed to sap their energy or to make them less valuable as soldiers or as citizens. 2883 KRX 0 0 LONG, James Senator Long - What is the necessity for referring the matter to a Select Committee? Would it not be. better to take a referendum upon it? 2883 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - I should like to see a referendum taken upon it. 2883 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - I am afraid that if we took a referendum on -this question the subject that would be discussed would be the best method of coping with phylloxera in vines, or something of that sort. If this question were referred to a referendum, judging by our experience of our friends opposite in connexion with a referendum recently taken, I tremble to think what questions they would discuss upon it. The Government has no objection to the passing of the motion. 2883 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - I support the appointment of the proposed Select Committee. Its investigation might prove of great advantage. I should not have risen to debate the motion were it not for the challenge by the Minister for Defence. (Senator Pearce) that I should explain any reference to his attitude on the question of the wet canteen. When the honor able senator was a member of the united Labour party, and held the position of Minister for Defence, as he does to-day, La abolished the wet canteen, I believe, on Jus own initiative. I .remember that a debate was initiated in this chamber by ex-Senator Turley, who desired the reestablishment of wet canteens in military camps in Australia. 2883 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Was not the motion defeated upon division 1 2883 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - It was. That is what I was leading up to. Shortly after that Senator Pearce referred the matter to the Federal . War Council,, of which Senator Long was a member. I remember that, when referring the matter to the Federal War Council, the Minister for Defence said that it would remove the responsibility from tha Government of which he was a member, because the Federal War Council was composed of persons representative of both political parties in the Federal Parliament and of all the States. The Minister held that if the Federal War Council chose to re-establish the wet canteen, which he as Minister for Defence had arbitrarily abolished, the blame would rest, not upon the Government or upon himself, but upon the Federal War Council. That was' the meaning of my interjection. I reminded .the honorable senator that after the Senate had defeated the motion submitted by ex-Senator Turley to reestablish the wet canteen, he referred the matter to the Federal War Council, thus shifting, or trying to shift, the responsibility on to the shoulders of the Federal War Council, and, to use his own words, removing it from himself as Minister for Defence and from the Government of which he was a member. 2883 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - I cannot see that that removed the Minister's responsibility. 2883 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - The attempt to remove it was made, ,as the records of the Federal War Council will show. 2883 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The Council could only make a recommendation. 2883 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - The Council had neither legislative nor administrative powers. 2883 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I admit "that, but why waa the War Council asked for an opinion as to whether wet canteens should or should not be re-established ? 2883 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Who advised the Government ? 2884 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - What are the Government there for? Senator Pearce, as Minister for Defence, abolished the wet canteen, and then referred the question to the Federal War Council, and" asked- for its recommendation upon it. I believe that the Minister was, at that time, somewhat shifty in his opinion as to whether he had acted rightly in abolishing the wet canteen. I have risen to give the honorable gentleman exactly what he said- 2884 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de LARGIE - Hear, hear! And the honorable senator has given it to him. 2884 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I do not want the sneering interjection of Senator de Largie. So far as the wet canteen is concerned, there are men in this Chamber who realize that its abolition was a grave mistake. There are honorable senators upon the opposite side of the chamber who admit that. Any number of our soldiers were used to taking a glass of beer occasionally, and, if after a hard day's work in camp they could not get it, what happened? "As soon as they obtained leave, some rushed off to the nearest town, with the result that, in a few instances, they imbibed not wisely but too well. I venture to say that 90 per cent, of these men would have been quite satisfied if there had been a canteen in camp, under the control of the Defence Department, at which they could have obtained a couple of glasses of ale in the afternoon. In such circumstances, we should have been spared many of the painful scenes that have been witnessed in our streets. Senator Pearce knows that there are a large number of men in our Expeditionary Force who are accustomed to taking their glass of beer at some time during the week. I hope that the Committee's investigation will result in good. But I would remind honorable senators that this liquor question is entirely one for State legislation. The only way in which we can deal with it is by means of the War Precautions Act. That Act, as we all know, has been worn threadbare during the past few months, by reason of the fact that it has been used for almost every purpose on earth. It is the duty of the State. Governments to deal with liquor reform. The Committee,, when it is appointed, may be able to obtain evidence which will be of vast assistance to this Parliament; but, after all, we cannot constitutionally deal with this question, be- " cause, from a constitutional stand-point, we have no control over the liquor trade. I shall support the motion for the appointment of the Committee. I merely f 0SE to remind the Minister for Defence of his action in endeavouring to shift responsibility from himself to the Federal War Council in regard to the question of whether the wet canteen should be reestablished. 2884 JZ9 Tasmania 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE .- The Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce) made a remark which I was glad to hear, namely, that if this Committee is appointed, and recommends the imposition of further restrictions on the liquor trade, it will only be fair if it also takes into consideration the question of granting compensation to the individuals who will be adversely affected. He also stated that the matter is largely one which is under the control of the State Governments, and that it is, therefore, a matter for their consideration. This question has been brought prominently under my notice during the past few weeks, owing to the fact, that I have been residing in a port at which one of the latest restrictions imposed by regulation under the War Precautions Act has borne heavily upon the liquor trade. I do not hold a brief either for or against that trade. But, as it is a trade which is entirely under the control of the State Parliaments, and some of these Parliaments have, within the past year or so, placed very severe restrictions upon it, those who are unfortunate enough to have embarked capital in it are now practically faced with ruin. I am not going to say whether the State Parliaments were right or wrong in thus acting; but I know that, on several occasions within the past few months, all the hotels in Hobart have been closed against the entire population of the city, merely because transports conveying troops to New Zealand have been obliged to call there. The hotels have been closed, not only against "the soldiers on the troopships, but against the entire population of the city. Senator Thomas will probably say that that was a good thing for their health. But I have heard some people tell him that if he did not drink so much cold water or hot tea, his health would suffer less than it has suffered. My argument is that if the Commonwealth Government, by reason of the War ' Precautions Act, is adding to the restrictions already imposed upon hotelkeepers at any of our ports at which transports call, it is up to it to seriously consider the question of granting compensation to the injured ones. In Tasmania some time ago the State Government decided to take a referendum upon the question of whether or not hotels should be closed at 6 o'clock in the evening. The people, by a majority, affirmed that they should be closed at that hour. As a result, a large number of 'those engaged m the trade in every portion of the country immediately found their incomes reduced by one-half. I know what my temperance, or rather prohibition, friends will say in reply to that. But I want them to remember that certain people had embarked their capital in the liquor trade by reason of State laws which existed, and which they had no reason to believe would be disturbed for many years- 2885 KNN 0 0 GUY, James Senator Guy - -They had ten years' notice. 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - My very consistent Rechabite colleague must know that they had not ten years' notice, or even ten months' notice. It was never contemplated that persons who gave perhaps £1,000 for the ingoing of an hotel, and in' addition made themselves liable to big weekly rentals, should suddenly have their incomes cut down by 50 per cent. I would remind honorable senators that, despite the opinions expressed by prohibitionists, many hotelkeepers are respectable citizens. 2885 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - Hear, hear! I should be very sorry to think they were not. 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - Very often we are led to believe that they are not. 2885 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - The honorable senator has never heard me say so. 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE -When these people invested their capital in the liquor trade, they did not contemplate that there would be 6 o'clock closing of hotels. However, the people affirmed that hotels should close at that hour, and as a result the revenue of hotelkeepers was immediately cut down by one-half. ^ On top of this disability further restrictions' are now being placed upon them by means of regulations under the War Precautions Act. These regulations can apply only to such places as ports of call for transports. 2885 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - I was a member of the New South Wales Parliament when it passed an Act closing all places of business, except hotels, at 6 o'clock. But no compensation was sought by those who had invested the savings of a lifetime in those businesses. 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - Of course, that argument is a very old one, and has been used many times to buttress the honorable senator's side of the question. I am not arguing whether 6 o'clock closing is good or bad, but as these restrictions have been imposed by the Federal Government on top of the State restrictions, they further limit the income of those in the liquor trade. In addition to that, they discriminate unfairly between hotelkeepers at ports of call for transports and hotelkeepers who carry on their businesses elsewhere. In Hobart on one occasion recently the hotels were closed from 10 o'clock in the morning until. 4 o'clock the following afternoon. The hotelkeepers who were thus adversely affected would not have objected to a prohibition against supplying liquor to soldiers from the1 transports. 2885 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator Pearce - How would it have been possible to respect such a prohibition? 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - But they did. object to the whole of the visitors and citizens of Hobart being prohibited from obtaining liquor during that period* I suppose that the Minister's answer to my statement will be that, had the hotels remained open, it would have been impossible to prohibit liquor being sold to the soldiers. I do not know that that is so. I think that the difficulty could have been quite easily overcome. ' If the medical authorities think that intoxicants injure the health of the returned soldiers, or if the Defence Department has good reason to believe that it is a good thing in the interests of the soldiers that they should be prohibited from getting liquor at ports of call, I do not know that I will quarrel with that contention. 2885 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Do you think they are prohibited ? 2885 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'KEEFE - They are, so far as the regulations of the Minister prohibit them, and they can get liquor only by breaking the law. The hotelkeepers are prohibited from serving them, unless they also break the law. I have heard quite a number of very fine men - so far as one could judge of them from a short acquaintance with them - returning on the transports making very bitter remarks, such as, " We are good enough to go and fight for Australia, but we are not considered respectable enough to be allowed to get a glass of beer or a long shandy when we return." Remarks of that kind have been heard, not from one, but from hundreds of the finest specimens of New Zealanders that one could wish to see - men who, to judge by their appearance, were not drunkards, and would not abuse the privilege, which all other citizens have, of getting a glass of liquor when they want it. Not only are the soldiers on the transports prohibited from getting drink at a port of call, but the whole of the population of the port, and any visitors to the port, are not allowed to go into the hotels, even for the purpose of getting a meal, without being pulled up by a policeman, who wants to know what they are doing, and who tells them that the hotel doors are closed by order of the Military Commandant. That officer sometimes gives about two minutes' notice. About 11 o'clock he sends a message to the hotels that at 12 o'clock that day they must be closed, and remain closed until further notice. The power, of course, must be vested in some one, and the Military Commandant is the proper person to have it; but if it is considered advisable, in the interests of the soldiers, that these things should be done, the Government should take into consideration the question whether compensation should not be paid to the hotelkeepers, who thus have their incomes further restricted, on top of the very heavy restrictions they are suffering under through legislation recently passed by the State Parliaments. I understand that the conditions in ports of call in Tasmania obtain also in other States where the transports call. I would, therefore, add to what Senator Pearce has said the suggestion that, if the Committee is appointed, and makes investigations in the very complete manner which it will have power to do under the wording of the motion, it should not lose sight of the big question of the payment of some compensation to hotelkeepers at ports of call, in view of the further restrictions that are being placed upon them. 2886 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - As the motion is worded, and the scope of the inquiry is very much restricted, I cannot very enthusiastically support it in its present form, because I can see no good or useful purpose that it can serve. We shall take all the responsibility and trouble and expense of making the inquiry, and then arrive at the conclusion that we can do nothing, because this Parliament has no legislative power in regard to the liquor traffic. It can act only under the War. Precautions Act, which is a, mere temporary expedient for the time the war continues. 2886 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The Government took away people's votes under the War Precautions Act. 2886 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - We cannot get away from the fact that the drink traffic is a matter wholly for the State Parliaments; and the Federal Parliament, if it made an inquiry, would be investigating other people's business. 2886 JZ9 0 0 O'KEEFE, David Senator O'Keefe - The Federal Parliament is doing it now. 2886 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - We are asked to proceed on a more enlarged scale to do that which we have not full power to do. I can; therefore, see very little use in the inquiry. If the question of compensation, which is a very important aspect of the drink traffic problem, is to be excluded from it, what in the name of common sense can it result in ? 2886 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Is it to be excluded ? 2886 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE - There is no reference to it in the motion, and one can only read into the motion in a very indirect way that it will be inquired into. I do not say it is excluded, but it is not incorporated in such a way as would justify any one in saying that that all-important aspect of the matter will be investigated, and recommendations made on it. For these reasons, there is little use in undertaking what will be a very gigantic and expensive task. If it is done properly, it will be necessary for the Committee to travel to the various States, and take evidence there. Having done that, they will simply arrive at the position that we have no legislative power to do anything. The war may be over before the inquiry is completed, and in that event the report will be absolutely valueless. If we are to undertake a " fishing " expedition to assist what some honorable senators. may consider the temperance cause in the future, let us be told so plainly, so that we may understand what is really behind tha motion.. If. the inquiry is to be made in order to; benefit the- soldiers; who are going away and returning,, this, is a. very paltry way of dealing with such a. big question. The mover of the motion went outside of its terms to refer to the wet canteen at Salisbury Plain. As one who went to the Old Country, and saw our boys at various places there, and some of them, in France, it is only fair, in their interests, and for the sake of' their relatives here, that I. should state that, wherever I went, whether in England, France, or elsewhere, I saw nothing, but what was creditable" to those boys. I never saw a sign of drink amongst any of them wherever I .went, although in the Old Country they have ample opportunities, to enjoy themselves if they wish, and have more money to spend than any of the other troops. They have a larger margin of cash for pleasure, but I did not see one Australian, or any one else in the Australian uniform, under the influence of drink all the time I was there. Whatever little horse-play may have occurred in our Australian ports when, troops were going away, their behaviour in London, in the provinces of England,, or in France, was of the very best. As Senator. Thomas dragged in: a reference to the wet canteen at Salisbury Plain, and regretted its existence, it is only fair to say that I saw nothing discreditable, but that everything in connexion with our boys abroad is to their credit. - I cannot enthusiastically support a motion out of which no really good business can- come. Had- Senator Thomasmade it sufficiently comprehensive, not only to deal with the incomings and outgoings of our troops, but to do something radical in regard to the drink traffic in the future) I should have been a much more enthusiastic supporter of it than I am of it in its present form. 2887 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I am glad to be in accord with Senator de Largie, on this question. He has put up a case which should induce the Government to hesitate before they permit an inquiry to be started on such a pretext as it is proposed to start this one on. If we have not the- power to deal with the liquor traffic by legislation ; if it is; purely a trade matter, and belongs to the States, why, at a time when every shilling is. required, send a "fishing" expedition, all over the Commonwealth looking for evidence on a matter about which, our own. intelligence supplies us with all. the information we want? If the liquor question, comes up here, I venture to say that we are as good authorities upon its. conduct and results, and upon its: use and' its abuse,, as- can be found anywhere in. the Commonwealth. I do not mind the. laugh of the- thoughtless, because my reputation, stands so high in this regard that the laugh passes me by. Seriously, why should the Government permit a Select Committee to embark on any inquiry of this sort when that- Committee must, if it does its duty properly, travel from one end of the Commonwealth, to the other, and when every shilling counts? I do not know whether they intend to go to the Old Land to see the effect of the traffic upon soldiers and others. I appeal to the Government to realize that shillings count at present, because a shilling saved is so much less of the burden to- be borne. The Committee, if appointed, will start by holding an. investigation in Melbourne, and then, go to. Adelaide and Hobart. Probably, if the weather gets very hot, it will go to. Hobart, for my experience is that generally any Select Committee strikes Hobart in the very hot season, and- Cairns in the middle of winter. I do not mind the Committee doing that if Parliament directs it to make a complete inquiry. This is a. matter on which Senator Thomas has specialized for many years, and I suppose he is quite an authority on it. He apparently wishes to educate the rest of Australia up to his own high level, and is putting this motion forward as an educational scheme to advance- the- cause of temperance. 2887 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - He does- not know the taste of liquor. 2887 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - That is all the more reason, why he should have a brain sufficiently clear to know the effects of it. This is not a time for fooling with the public money, whether the amount is large or small, and I join with Senator de Largie in his opposition to the proposal. He said he could not enthusiastically support it, but I contend that if we call the Committee into existence- we make ourselves responsible for all its- investigations, costly or otherwise, and the motion is so worded that we do not know how much it may undertake. 2888 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - That applies to any Committee. 2888 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Honorable senators should oppose the appointment of any Committee to investigate a question with which it is not the business of this Parliament to deal - and the liquor question is purely a State matter. If the Government really want the information, they have a hundred and one sources to get it from much more cheaply than by means of a Select Committee going round * fishing " for it. 2888 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - They have absolute power so far as the War Precautions Act is concerned. 2888 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Only for the time of the war. If the Committee began its investigations to-day, we could not expect the Parliament to legislate on its report before twelve months -had expired, that is, if the investigation is to be anything like thorough. 2888 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Apparently we would not legislate on its report at all. It would be only a direction to the Government as to the way in which it should exercise its war powers. 2888 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - When the evidence is collected, and we know the slow process followed in that regard, and when it has been published and circulated amongst honorable senators - for the Government can take no action until the final report is made - will it be worth while doing anything? If this was a function with which this Parliament had to deal in ordinary peaceful times, no one would join more gladly with Senator Thomas and Senator Pearce in a temperance campaign than I would, but I remember when, at the close of last session, I tried to secure the publication of a temperance pamphlet - The Fiddlers - the Government, of which, strange to say, Senator Pearce is a member and Senator Thomas a supporter, actually voted to have my speech struck out of Hansard, although there was not one word in it to which any temperance advocate could take exception, as it consisted almost entirely of statements contained in the temperance pamphlet referred to. Even a worse injustice was Hone mo afterwards, and I do not know that you, Mr. President, were not to blame for that. I was not permitted to get any copies of that speech printed. When I sent over an order for publication this right was refused me by the Government Printer, who informed me that, acting under instructions, he could not execute it. 2888 K2L 0 0 REID, Matthew Senator Reid - A unique position. 2888 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Yes; and I venture to say that Senator Thomas and Senator Pearce are now endeavouring to build up their reputations as temperance advocates, which they lost on that particular occasion. . These are the people who now pose as ""temperance men. They are prepared, when it suits them, and when it does not interfere with' any other political considerations, to have an investigation into this question of temperance reform, so that they may pose before the world as temperance advocates. These are the men who voted to have my temperance speech cut out of Hansard; who were opposed to' the temperance publication, The Fiddlers, being placed in the hands of Australians. I have been expecting a searcher to come round to my house to confiscate the copies I have there, and I always keep them handy so that they will not disturb my other papers. ' This, sir, is the Government that gave a pledge not to carry on the business of the country unless they could get certain powers. I believe there is a pot of whitewash at Government House, and that, as all the members of the Government have been there this afternoon, they feel they can come back a brand new Government. And 'Senator Thomas and Senator Pearce, who would not allow the publication of that temperance pamphlet, are now prepared, when it suits them, to advocate an inquiry as a make-believe that they are doing something in the interest of temperance. They may take up that position, and, if the Senate approves of it, the responsibility will be upon the shoulders of the Government. Personally, I think that every shilling spent will be deliberately wasted. We have a heavy financial -burden to bear, and restriction must be placed upon those who seek to involve this country in any unnecessary expenditure. This motion also involves the question of compensation, and I agree with Senator Pearce that that is an arguable question. I know the -resources of the temperance organization will be drawn "upon if the Select Committee is appointed, and" I know their capacity for obtaining in-, formation to substantiate the stand they adopt. I also know something of the wealthy organizations controlling the liquor trade and of their capacity for collecting information in support of the trade interests. In view of all this, are we going to embarK upon this inquiry? I venture to say that even Senator Thomas has not given the subject sufficient thought, or he would not seek' to commit the Senate to this proposal. The responsibility must rest upon the Government and their supporters. They know what is the condition of our finances, and how every shilling counts at the present time. Are they going to permit this Committee to go on a "fishing" excursion from one end of the country to the other looking for evidence upon a subject we are all well informed of? If we are not well informed upon it> that is our own fault, because it has always been as an open book. It is a miserable pretence to suggest that this is something being done in the interest of our soldiers. When I found that there was such a unanimous support for the motion from Government supporters I felt it was my duty to speak, so that this pretence should not be indorsed without a protest. 2889 JYR Victoria 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Senator FAIRBAIRN . - I sympathize very deeply with the words that have been uttered by Senator Gardiner. I sympathize also with Senator de Largie, because I think it is preposterous that at a time like this we should appoint a Committee to inquire into a question which has occupied public attention in this country for years. It is almost impossible for one to receive the daily mail without getting copies of temperance literature from some source, and;, as Senator Gardiner has pointed out, with the wealth of the liquor trade on one side and the enthusiasm of the temperance people on the other, this inquiry will involve a tremendous amount of expenditure. I would like Senator Pearce to give the Senate an idea of what this inquiry will cost, because we cannot afford to spend a single shilling, unnecessarily. It has been the business of the State Parliaments hitherto to deal with this question, though it is perfectly true that under the War Precautions Act we are controlling the liquor traffic to some extent by differentiating between the ordinary citizen and the soldier. This is a very difficult problem indeed. When the soldier returns to this country he is debarred from certain privileges enjoyed by the ordinary citizen; but it must be remembered that for a long time he has been practically a temperance man, and it is 9 inadvisable that he should be exposed immediately to the temptation of liquor when overwrought by the great excite ment which he must experience when he returns to this country. I agree with the Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce), who says that the prohibition of drink, so' far as our soldiers are concerned, has been beneficial in its results. We have to be guided by such experience, though we may regret that we are unable, by allowing them to touch intoxicating liquors, to show gratitude for the work they have done. But we must look after the boys and see that they are guarded in every possible way from temptation. That is the only reason for treating them in this way. I was pleased to hear Senator O'Keefe speak in defence of the rights of property, and I hope that before long we shall have Senator Grant standing up for the landowners, too. 2889 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - I purpose doing that. 2889 JYR 0 0 FAIRBAIRN, George Senator FAIRBAIRN - In my opinion, the temperance movement has been retarded for a long time because no compensation whatever has been offered to owners of that class of property. As Senator O'Keefe pointed out, it is not fair that men or women who invest their life savings in the purchase of the freehold or leasehold of a public house should lose everything merely because the people, as represented by Parliament, suddenly change their mind and decide to interfere with this class of trade. I admire temperance people, and agree that we want to see Australians a sober race, but I think the temperance movement would be greatly assisted if compensation were provided for those whose businesses may bo affected by the reform. I hope, therefore, that if the Committee is appointed, it will take this view of the question into consideration. In my own experience I know that the burrier! of compensation has fallen entirely on the landlord, because a licensee tenant who has had his hours contracted approaches the landlord for a reduction of rent, and in every case I know of he has got it. We want to conserve, every penny we. possibly can. so that we shall have the last, shilling, to spend, on this war. In. an ordinary time, and if this subject were the business of the Commonwealth Parliament, I would strongly advocate what Senator Thomas now desires, namely, to get more information if possible" on this particular point, but our duty now is to see that not a single penny is spent until we know whether we will have enough money to carry on this war to a successful conclusion. 2890 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - I did not propose to speak upon this, question but for certain remarks made Avith regard to the question of compensation. Senator Fairbairn's statement should not be overlooked or in any way minimized. Now, with regard to the supposed injustice done to Hie hotelkeeper through' the curtailment of his hours of trading, the evidence has been of a most conflicting character. We have been told that the mere fact of curtailing the hours has had no effect whatever upon the quantity of liquor sold. I do not know whether- that is- so or not, but we do know - if the evidence that has been, furnished to us from time to. time can be relied upon - that the 6 o'clock closing has had the effect of reducing the number of citizens arrested at night for drunkenness, and who, as a rule> were fined at police courts on the following morning. The evidence on that point I think is conclusive-. I do not know whether or not the proper people are being compensated for any loss of trade; but I understand that when a man secures the right to sell liquor he has something which is of immense cash value. I heard the other day of a gentleman who secured the right to build a hotel in a certain district, and that it was worth several thousand pounds to him. Is it proposed to compensate the publican or the man who owns the hotel? I should like to know the number of hotels in Australia and the value of the land whereon they stand, and T should like also to know the value- of the land, provided the licence were removed. We have not had that information supplied to us yet. We know that some men and well-intentioned women have invested money in hotels and have failed. Other businesses have suffered in the- same way, but we have never yet seen a. return showing the number of hotels absolutely owned by the breweries. That information has been carefully withheld.. We have good reason to believe- that politics m. .Great Britain are absolutely dominated by the liquor trade- 2890 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - Lloyd George- says seu.. 2890 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - I believe that statement to be. quite' correct.- The liquor interests in Great Britain overshadow everything else, and, come what may, they must not be- interfered) with. The welfare of the soldiers is not considered for a> moment by a great number of people,, as against the interests of the liquor trade. 2890 JZD 0 0 FOLL, Hattil Senator Foll - They have limited hours in Great .Britain, now. 2890 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - I should like to know to what extent the income of the > liquor trade has been diminished since restriction has been placed upon the traffic. 2890 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Does , this motion affect that question ? _ 2890 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - In my opinion it does,, because the motion, is in wide terms, and the Committee might inquire at considerable .length into this question. Its- report also should- not be pigeonholed. It will be read with interest by the whole community, and it should be acted upon by this Parliament, and, if necessary, by the Parliaments of ' the various States. ' 2890 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - How could this Parliament deal with it? 2890 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - The War Precautions Act gives this Parliament most comprehensive powers to deal with any question it pleases. It will not be necessary to expend a fabulous sum of money on this inquiry. The small amount which the investigation- will cost will, I think, -be well expended. 2890 JYF 0 0 EARLE, John Senator Earle - Has the- honorable senator any idea of what the cost will be ? 2890 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - No; but it should not be an expensive investigation. I take it that the- temperance people will be prepared, at very short notice', to supply as much evidence as will be- necessary to support their side of the lease, and I. am satisfied that the liquor trade is so well organized that those interested in it will have no- difficulty in supplying evidence to- buttress their case. I believe that all the evidence the proposed Committee will require, will be quickly forthcoming. I support the motion. Question resolved in the affirmative. 2891 bill 2891 2891 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - I move - That this Bill be now read a second time. I shall not take up much of the time of the Senate in submitting this motion. The principal clause of the Bill is clause 2, which provides that - Section 14 of the principal Act is amended by omitting sub-section 1 thereof. For the information of honorable senators, I quote sub-section 1 of section 14 of the principal Act, which is as follows: - Every award made under this Act shall be expressed not to come into operation until a future date not earlier than after the expiration of thirty days after the award has been laid before both Houses of the Parliament. In asking the Senate to agree to the repeal of that sub-section of section 14, I do so in order to place those who take advantage of the Arbitration (Public Service) Act upon the same footing as those who take advantage of the original Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act. It is well known that an organization outside the Public Service of the Commonwealth may appeal to the Arbitration Court and secure an award operative from the moment that the Judge of the Court gives the award. 2891 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - It is also within the province of a Judge of the Arbitration Court to make his award retrospective. 2891 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - Senator Henderson is agreeing with me. It is within the power of a Judge of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court to make an award retrospective, and also to fix the date of its application. The Arbitration (Public Service) Act of 1911 deals entirely with organizations within the Public Service, and in the case of awards made under' that Act it is imperative, under sub-section 1 of section 14, that they shall lay on the table in both Houses of this Parliament for thirty days before becoming operative. It is under this sub-section mat injustice is done to the members of organizations within the Commonwealth Public Service. A Judge of an Arbitration Court hearing a case under the provisions of the Arbitration (Public Service) Act 1911 might, for instance, have given his award on the 28th September, 1917. I believe that this Parliament adjourned on the 27th of that month, and, as a consequence, no matter what , the award might be, it could not become operative until thirty days had expired from the reassembling of this Parliament. I may say that awards of the Court since the Act became law have been in the direction of increases of wages, and if, in the case I have instanced, the effect of the award of the Court was to increase the pay of the members of the organization appealing to it, they would have been deprived of the benefit of the award for three months. 2891 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - No, not for three days. 2891 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I can give instances where an award has been made, and it has had to lay on the table in both Houses of this Parliament for thirty days before becoming operative, whilst the Judge hearing the case could not intervene. I therefore reiterate my statement that if three months ago an award had been given increasing the pay of a Public Service organization, the increase would not come into operation until after the expiration of thirty days from the time the award was laid before Parliament. That is well known to those who have studied the industrial laws of the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act, and the Arbitration (Public Service) Act. Under the Conciliation and Arbitration Act, an award of the Court becomes operative at once; and if the President of the Court so decides he may make the award retrospective. Under the Arbitration (Public Service) Act, the President of the Court is robbed of that power. 2891 KRZ 0 0 LYNCH, Patrick Senator Lynch - Has a Judge under the Arbitration (Public Service) Act no power to make an award retrospective? 2891 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - No, he has not.. I have given this matter careful study, and I should not have occupied the time of the Senate in dealing with it had I not recognised the difference between the Arbitration (Public Service) Act of 1911 and the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act in this respect. Whilst organizations outside the Public Service Act may have awards in their favour made immediately operative, and retrospective, if the President of the Court so determines, why should organizations within the Public Service be penalized to the extent which the Arbitration Public Service Act of 1911 has penalized them so far? 2892 KOS 0 0 HENDERSON, George Senator Henderson - Is the honorable senator positive that that is so? 2892 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I am confident that it is so; otherwise I should not be moving the second reading of this Bill. If honorable senators require instances of the effect of the sub-section I seek to repeal, they can be given. I desire the repeal of that sub-section so that when any organization within the Public Service appeals to the Arbitration Court, they may immediately secure the benefit of any award made in their favour. When they appear before the Court, they are represented by their advocate, and the Commonwealth Public Service is represented by the Public Service Commissioner or his deputy. The President of the Court, after hearing the case, gives his award; but if at the time it is given this Parliament were to adjourn for four, six, or eight months, the award could not operate until thirty days after the time it was laid upon the table in both Houses of this Parliament, and the members of the organization concerned would be deprived during the interval of the benefit of the award. I ask honorable senators to say whether they consider that is fair. A member of an organization within the Public Service is as much a citizen of Australia as is a member of an organization outside the Service. 2892 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating -Has there been any concrete instance of the inequity the honorable senator complains of? 2892 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - There have been instances where awards have been given under the Arbitration (Public Service) Act, and have not operated until the statutory period provided for in the sub-section to which I take exception had elapsed. 2892 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - Is there anything to prevent the awards operating retrospectively ? Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m. 2892 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - When the sitting was suspended I had been asked by Senator Keating to quote concrete instances in which awards had been given under the provisions of the Arbitration (Public Service) Act 1911, and in which delay had occurred in giving effect to those awards. In response to the honorable senator's request I have chosen, haphazardly, just two cases out of many which might be cited. The first is the award given in the case of the Postal Electricians Union on the 28th April, 1913, and which was laid on the table of the Senate on the 13th August, 1913. It will be seen, therefore, that practically four months elapsed between the date on which the award was made and the date on which it was laid on the table of both Houses of this Parliament. As a result the members of the union were deprived for a period of four months of the increased rate of pay granted to them. The second instance I propose to mention is the award given in the case of the Telegraph and Telephone Construction and Maintenance Union on the 29th September, 1916, and which was laid on the table of this Parliament on the 3rd November of that year. In that case there was an interval of two months between the granting of the award and the date upon which it was laid on the table of both Houses of this Parliament. Here was an organization whose members had. gained an increase in their wages, in addition to other benefits relating to holidays and travelling allowances-- 2892 KPE 0 0 KEATING, John Senator Keating - There was nothing to prevent this Parliament from making the operation of the award retrospective. 2892 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - The trouble is that it did not do that, and I do not know whether it will do that in the future. It is because Parliament did not make the award retrospective that I am asking honorable senators to delete a particular provision of the Act so that the Public Service organizations may be placed on the same level as outside organizations. What is the objection to the adoption of that course?Iknow of none. It may be suggested that Parliament does not wish to forego control of its public servants. I believe that there is something in that contention. But if that be the incentive to vote against the proposal that is contained in the Bill I say that Parliament relinquished its control of our public servants when it passed the Arbitration (Public Service) Act. Why was that measure introduced ? Because it was held that Parliament could not be the arbiter in a dispute between its own servants and the Public Service Commissioner. That is why the whole matter was referred to the Arbitration Court with the reservation that when Parliament is. in session thirty days must elapse before the award' can become operative. In all equity such a restriction ought not to obtain. If it be right for an organization to refer its complaint to a tribunal established for the purpose of determining such complaints, the award of that tribunal should operate from the moment that it is given. By supporting the amendment of the Act which is embodied in this Bill Parliament will not be foregoing its control of its public servants. I have no desire to labour the matter further. I hope that honorable senators will support my proposal for the deletion of sub-section 1 of section 14 of the Arbitration (Public Service) Act, otherwise an unnecessary injustice will be inflicted upon certain citizens of this Commonwealth. Debate (on motion by Senator Millen) adjourned. 2893 adjournment Compulsory Military Service in New Zealand. Motion (by Senator Millen) proposed - That the Senate do now adjourn. 2893 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - I wish to invite the attention of the Senate to the action of the New Zealand Government in arresting citizens of Australia and compelling them to serve in the Military Forces there or go to gaol. The particular case that I have in my mind is that of a man named George Arthur Pomfret is a native of Riverstone, a town a few miles from Sydney, and he is a member of the New South Wales Slaughtermen's Union, and has been in the habit of regularly visiting New Zealand for the purpose of securing seasonal employment and afterwards of returning to New South Wales. On the occasion of his last visit, he decided to remain in New Zealand over the next season. During that period, the New Zealand Government brought into operation the Act relating to compulsory military service abroad; and, because this man omitted to observe either the Act itself, or some of' its regulations, he has been arrested and lodged in gaol. 2893 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - How long was he in New Zealand? 2893 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - About eighteen months. At the present time there are quite a number of unionists connected with the meat industry who, season after season, visit New Zealand in search of employment, but who have not been interfered with in the same manner as has this man. While the Government of the Dominion may have a perfect right -to arrest its own citizens, I hold that when it proceeds to arrest natives of the Commonwealth, and to compel them either to serve in the Military Forces abroad or submit to imprisonment, it is exceeding its proper functions. This is not the only case of the kind which might be cited. Some time ago, my attention was drawn to a similar action on the part of the New Zealand Government in arresting a man named Hadaway, who was a steward on the mail steamer Niagara, upon her last visit to the Dominion. So far as I can learn, he, too, has been either lodged in gaol or put in the Military Forces. Letters addressed to him have been returned, so that no information regarding his fate is available. I have written to the Minister for Defence (Senator Pearce) in connexion with the matter, and he has forwarded my letter to the Prime Minister (Mr. Hughes), but, although a reminder has been sent to the latter no reply has yet reached me. I submit that this is a matter of urgent public importance, and one that ought not to be tolerated by this Parliament. I therefore invite the special and immediate attention of the Minister to the action which has been taken by the New Zealand Government, and I would like to know what he has to say on the subject. 2893 KUL New South Wales NAT Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - Of course, Senator Grant will understand that I am not in a position to say anything regarding the particular case to which he has referred, but certain aspects of it have been suggested by his statement upon which I should like to make a few comments. First of all, we have been told that the gentleman who has been required to conform to the law of New Zealand has been resident in that country for eighteen months. I am interested to know whether, during that time, he placed his name on the electoral roll and exercised the functions of a citizen. If he did so, and has given evidence of citizenship, obviously he has no right, on the one hand to claim the benefits of that citizenship, and on the other hand to decline to accept its responsibilities. In our own Defence Act, we provide that any male between the ages of fourteen and twenty-five years who has been resident here for six months is subject to its provisions. 2894 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - This man is only twenty-one years of age now. 2894 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - But, under the law which the honorable senator has been supporting, if he were only fourteen years of age, he would have been compelled to render military service to the Commonwealth. To my mind, that is a perfectly fair and reasonable proposition. Anybody who becomes a citizen of a country has no right to object when he is suddenly called upon to shoulder his responsibilities 2894 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - But he is only twenty-one years of ago now. 2894 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - And he has been in New Zealand for eighteen months. Is he a resident of the Dominion or is He not? 2894 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - He is only a temporary resident there. 2894 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I am very interested to learn whether he has been enrolled there. 2894 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - How could he, seeing that he is only just twenty-one years of age? 2894 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I am not dealing with, this particular case, because there are factors about it of which I am ignorant. But, as a general proposition, I say that when a man goes into a country and receives all the benefits of its citizenship, he should also be called upon- to shoulder all the responsibilities which attach to that citizenship. 2894 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - The other fifty men who have gone across there have not been pounced upon by the New Zealand Government. 2894 KVH QUEENSLAND ALP 0 0 MULLAN, John Senator MULLAN - Then, it may be, the New Zealand Government is in default in the case of fifty men, rather than in the case of one man. I shall see that the honorable senator's remarks are forwarded through the proper channel to the Prime Minister of New Zealand. I can do no more, but I resent altogether the suggestion that this Parliament or Government should in any way interfere to relieve from the discharge of a citizen obligation any Australian who has left here and become domiciled in New Zealand. If he is domiciled in New Zealand, and receives the benefit of that domicile and citizenship, he should also render to the State the responsibilities which are thrown on all the citizens in common. Question resolved in the affirmative. 2894 20:16:00 Senate adjourned at 8.16 pm.