1918-06-12 7 2 0 SENATE 5749 0 Australian Imperial [12 June, 1918.] Force. 5749. Senate. 1918-06-12 The President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 5749 bill Assent to the following Bills reported : - Acts Interpretation Bill. Supplementary Appropriation Bill 1915-16. Supplementary Appropriation (Works and Buildings) Bill. 1915-16. Supplementary Appropriation Bill 1916-17. Supplementary Appropriation (Works and Buildings) Bill 1916-17. War Loan Bill (No. 3). War Loan Securities Repurchase Bill. 5749 motion 5749 5749 KKZ NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - (By leave).- I find that on Thursday last the Minister for Defence, in making an explanation in regard to a question asked by me, is re- . ported to have said - Obviously either Senator Gardiner's question was not correctly reported, or I misunderstood its purport. I have consulted the Hansard authorities, and am informed that the question, as attributed in the report to Senator Gardiner, has not been altered by him. I wish to say not only that I did not alter that question, but I never do alter the report of questions or remarks of mine. I apprehended at the time the Minister gave his answer that he had misunderstood my question, but I did not wish to further interfere with the business, and did not proceed further with the matter. I desire now to remove from the Minister's mind any idea that my question was misreported. Had it been answered it would have enabled the Minister for Defence to have made a more complete statement of the intentions of the Government instead of leaving the matter, as his reply to Senator Fairbairn's question left it, in such a way as possibly to convey to the minds of the public, as it did to my mind, a wrong impression. I wish to add that not only was my question properly reported and the report unaltered by me, but I believed at the time that the question was misunderstood, and turning to an honorable senator alongside of me, I remarked, " I believe that Senator Pearce has made a mistake." 5749 JXJ WESTERN AUSTRALIA ALP 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - On behalf of Senator Guy, I ask the Minister for Defence whether he is prepared with a reply to the question asked by the honorable senator on Thursday last concerning a message received from Lieutenant Hurst on the subject of recruiting. 5749 K0F WESTERN AUSTRALIA NAT Minister for Defence 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The questions asked by Senator Guy were - Has he received a message from Lieutenant Hurst, Inspector of Recruiting, and Lieutenant Henshaw, Recruiting Officer, Tasmania, respecting the enlistment of men for wireless signal service there; and, if so, does such message confirm the statement that these men were enlisted for such service exclusively. Is it true that a Court of Inquiry decided that these men were properly enlisted in a wireless corps under proper authority. The answers are as follow : - The message referred to has been received, but does not confirm anything. The statements made therein refer to local actions, concerning which reports are being obtained. Any Court of Inquiry, if held, was local. Its proceedings have not yet been received, but inquiries will be made. 5749 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN - Last week I asked the Minister for Defence a question regarding the number of minors who have recently enlisted. Has the Minister now available the information which I sought? 5749 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The honorable senator's question was - How many minors under nineteen have enlisted without the consent of their parents since the order allowing this to be done first came into force, and how many have since been discharged ? The answer is as follows: - Number enlisted without the consent of parents, 691. Number since discharged, 154. Cases not yet finalized, 412. 5749 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL asked the Minister for Defence, upon notice - Is it a fact that another contingent of Anzacs on furlough has arrived in Australia lately? Is it a fact that these men have not been treated in accordance with the promise of the Minister in replying to a question of mine a few days ago regarding Anzacs on furlough? 5749 K0F 0 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The answers are as follow: - A few soldiers who left in 1914 arc being returned on each transport for duty on board, and they are granted two months' leave in Australia before being returned. 5750 Repatriation. [SENATE.] DelayedCables. No complaints from the men concerned as to treatment have been received. Complaints did appear in the public press that no sustenance allowance was being paid to these men, but this has been rectified, and payment made retrospective to cover all cases. 5750 Questions 5750 Fines on Soldiers. 5750 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I ask the Minister for Defence, at the request and on behalf of Senator Guy, whether he is yet in a position to reply to the question put by that honorable senator regarding fines imposed at the Caulfield Hospital ? 5750 K0F NAT 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The question put by Senator Guy on Thursday last was - What is the total amount of fines levied and collected from soldiers in the Caulfield Hospital ? I promised that the information would be obtained for the honorable senator, and now supply the following answer to his question : - The total amount of fines levied and collected at No- 11 Australian General Hospital, Caulfield, from 1st May,1916, to 31stMay, 1918- £757 2s. 6d. 5750 Soldiers Hand Loom Industry 5751 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL - I ask the Minister for Repatriation whether he has noticed that, in giving evidence before a Commission, the manager of a large firm said that he purchased cloth made on hand looms by returned soldiers at 14s., and sold it at 17s.6d. per yard. Will the Minister see that the public may get this cloth without having to pay the middleman's price, so that the returned soldiers engaged in the industry may reap the full benefit of their labour. 5750 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I have not seen the statement referred to, which I have heard now with very much interest. I shall certainly make myself acquainted with the facts, with a view to securing for the soldier industry of hand weaving the profits to which it is entitled. 5750 5750 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER -I ask the Leader of the Senate whether, in view of the disconcerting effect upon the stock market of the threatened fixing of the prices of meat, the Government will immediately give the public full information regarding the whole business, and state what the prices for meat are to be? 5750 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - The Government will lose no time in completing such arrangements as will permit of such an announcement as the honorable senator refers to being made. 5750 Offer to Purchase 5750 KSU 0 0 MAUGHAN, William Senator MAUGHAN - I ask the Minister for Repatriation whether there is any truth in the rumour published in a newspaper called the News Letter, of Sydney, to the effect that a wealthy English family has made an offer to the Commonwealth Government to purchase the Northern Territory for several millions sterling. If so, will the Minister be good enough to lay on the table of the Senate all papers in connexion therewith? 5750 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I have myself no knowledge of such a communication, and I shall endeavour to ascertain whether any offer of the kind has reached the Government. 5750 5750 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I ask the Minister representing the Postmaster-General whether he is in a position to give any reply in connexion with the matter of the long delay which occurred in the transmission of a cable from a soldier at the Front to his father, Mr. Thompson, of Perth? 5750 K3E NAT 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL - The reply is as follows : - The Imperial authorities advised the Postmaster-General's Department at the establishment of theE.F.M. (Expeditionary Force Message) facility that it had been arranged with the cable companies that no subsequent inquiry would be undertaken in regard to messages of this class, which are accepted at the sender's risk at quarter rates; and attached hereto is an extract from Hansard showing the reply given by the Assistant Minister for Defence on the 16th ultimo regarding the same complaint. Senator Needham's suggestion that the Defence authorities abroad take the responsibility of sending soldiers' cables is one that had already had the consideration of the Postal and Defence Departments in conference, at the instance of the Postmaster -General, and an officer who is proceeding to England on other business is to take the matter in hand on arrival there and endeavour to make arrangements with the War Office which will meet the case. Economic Conscription. [12 June, 1918.] Blind Soldiers. 5751 5751 Situation on Western Front. 5751 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I ask what action, if any, the National Government propose to take with a view to meeting the serious situation which exists on the Western Front? 5751 K0F NAT 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - As the honorable senator is aware, the Government are using every endeavour to obtain as many recruits as possible in Australia. 5751 Employment on Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta Railway. 5751 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Home and Territories if he has received any reply to the question which I asked some time ago as to whether men seeking employment at the Kalgoorlie end of the east- west railway are required to produce rejection badges before they can obtain it ? 5751 K3E NAT 1 0 RUSSELL, Edward Senator RUSSELL - The reply to the honorable senator's question is as follows : - It is not the practice to ask men to produce their rejection badges before they can obtain employment. As casual work is offering on the Trans AustralianRail way, the practice is to give preference to returned soldiers and married men. Where insufficient returned soldiers or married men are offering, work is allotted to the single men: It there arc more single men offering than there are positions, them men who have offered, for enlistment and been! rejected would. Have preference over single men who. have not offered for active service. This is considered to be a. reasonable practice, and will be continued. Under this arrangement, George Davies would be given preference over William Davies. 5751 War Precautions Regulations 5751 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - As practically two months have passed- since the Recruiting Conference met at the Federal Government House, I ask the Leader of the Senate whether the Government have carried out their promise by considering the wiping out of the War Precautions Regulations which were objectionable to a section of that Conference? 5751 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - The Government have, as far as is in their power, redeemed the promise which they gave at the Conference. The. matter is under consideration, and the result of their deliberations will be announced shortly. 5751 5751 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL - I ask the Minister for Repatriation whether it is a fact that some of the blind soldiers who have come to Australia had to be returned to England to be educated there ? If so, is he aware that the most up-to-date blind institution is situated in New-South Wales ? 5751 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - It is a fact that certain blind soldiers who have returned to Australia have, at their own request, been returned to England to undergo a course of training at Dunstans. I also know that certain blind soldiers have raised an objection to being trained either in the Sydney or any other blind institution in Australia. Steps have been, taken to provide training for them by other means within. Australia. 5751 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Will the Minister investigate the achievements of the blind institution in Sydney, with a. view to assuring soldiers who object to be trained there that it is the first institution of its kind in the world ? 5751 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I am aware of the excellence of the Sydney blind institution., and also of the blind institutions in other States, and I do not wish anything I have said to be construed as reflecting upon the efficiency with which they carry out their work. That, however, has nothing to do with the objection taken by the soldiers themselves to becoming inmates of them. 5751 Housing Accommodation for Workers 5751 JZC ALP 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Lt Colonel O'LOGHLIN asked the Minister for Defence,upon notie. - Has the Commonwealth Government any control over the smelting works at Port Pirie, whore large quantities of lead and war materiel are dealt with? If so, will the Government endeavour to secure adequate housing accommodation for the workmen engaged? 5751 K0F NAT 1 0 PEARCE, George Senator PEARCE - The answers are as follow : - Under the War Precautions Regulations the Minister for Defence has power to take possession of any factory or workshop in which war-like stores are manufactured; but it has not been considered necessary to exercise this power in the case of the smelting works at Port Pirie. See answer to No. 1. 5752 Printing Committee.[SENATE.] Papers. 5752 Personnel of Committees 5752 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, upon notice - What arc the names and occupations of the persons and the organizations controlling the export sales of - (l)zinc, (2) copper, (3) lead, (4) rare base metals? 5752 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - The answer is as follows : - Permission to export metals rests solely with the Government. The organization for the marketing of - Zinc, is the Zinc Producers Association Proprietary Limited; Copper, the Copper Producers Association Proprietary Limited; Lead, the Broken Hill Associated Smelters Proprietary Limited, and the Sulphide Corporation Limited; and Bare metals (wolfram, schcelite, and molybdenite), Dalgety and Company Limited, and the Thermo Electric Ore Reduction Corporation Limited. 5752 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN - Arising out of that answer, as I understand there is a Government representative on the Board of the Zinc Producers Association, may I ask the Minister to get further information in the direction of answering the question which I have put to him? 5752 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - If the honorable senator will submit a further question in due course, I shall endeavour to answer it. 5752 miscellaneous Motion (by Senator Barker) agreed to- That the report of the Printing Committee, presented to the Senate on 6th June, 1018, be adopted. 5752 papers The following papers were presented : - Lands Acquisition Act 1000-1910. - Land acquired under at Townsville. Queensland - For Defence purposes. Public Service Act 1902-1916. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1918, No. 129. Quarantine Act 1908-1915. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1918, Nos. 110 and 135. The War. - (Papers presented to British Parliament) - Internment of Seaplanes, &c, salved on the High Seas and brought into Netherlands Jurisdiction - Correspondence. Shipping - Correspondence with Netherlands Government regarding the requisitioning by His Majesty's Government of British-owned, or chiefly British-owned, Ships under neutral flags. Merchant Tonnage and the Submarine. - Statement issued by the War Cabinet showing for period August, 1914, to December, 1917 - ( 1 ) Mercantile losses by Enemy action and Marine Risk; (2) Mercantile Shipbuilding Output; (3) Enemy vessels captured and brought into Service, together with Diagrams. 5752 bill Bill returned from the House of Representatives, withamendments. Motion (by Senator Millen) agreed to- That the message be considered forthwith. In Committee: Clause 6 - Section 8 of the principal Act is amended by omitting paragraphs (b) and (c) thereof, and inserting in their stead the following paragraphs: - in the form of free passages from abroad to Australia to the wives and children of Australian soldiers - who have been declared by the competent Military Medical Board at Australian Imperial Force Head-quarters abroad to be medically unfit for military service, and who have been returned, or whom it is proposed to return, to Australia, or . . . where by reason of special circumstances the Commission considers that assistance and benefits should be granted, to- the widowed mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers who, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, were dependent upon them. House of Representatives' Amendment. - Leave out sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph' (c) and insert - who have been declared by the competent Naval or Military Medical Board at the Head-quarters abroad of the Australian Naval or Military Forces to be medically unfit for service, and who have been returned, or whom it is proposed to return, to Australia, or . Australian Soldiers' [12 June, 1918.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). 5753 5753 KUL New South Wales NAT Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I move - That the amendment be agreed to. 5753 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Are we expected to consider these amendments without having them before us? 5753 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - They have been distributed. No one knows more than myself how difficult it is to grasp the effect of an amendment, especially when it is an amendment upon an amendment. If at any stage the Committee desire a little further time to consider an amendment I shall willingly agree to a postponement, but most of the proposals of another place are so simple that that is hardly likely to become necessary. 5753 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Are you accepting these amendments? 5753 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I am accepting some of them, but alterations have been inserted in another place, as in this case, for purposes which, I am sure, will appeal to the Senate. The clause, as passed by the Senate, widened the power of the Repatriation Department with regard to returning to Australia soldiers' wives who, for some reason, might be in the Old Country. It was found that the clause did not sufficiently include sailors, and the purpose of the amendment of another place is to make it clear that the sailor shall be entitled to those benefits which the Senate said should apply to the soldier. Motion agreed to. House of Representatives' Amendment. - Leave out sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph (d) and insert- to the mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers - who are widows and were, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, dependent upon them, or whose husbands are so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to their support. 5753 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator Grant - Will the Minister explain the effect of this amendment? 5753 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I move - That the amendment be amended by leaving out the word " to " in the first line, and agreed to. The word " to '' is redundant. The Senate agreed in the Bill as passed to extend the benefits of the Repatriation Act to the widows of deceased soldiers who were dependent upon them, but there is another class of soldiers' mother who is equally entitled to our consideration - the woman who, though not a widow, has an incapacitated husband. It is merely necessary to state that case to insure its inclusion in the Bill. 5753 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - What is the position of the soldier's father who is totally incapacitated ? 5753 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - This meets the case of the wife of that man. 5753 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - But what about a case such as I know of? A soldier makes an allotment to his mother, goes to the Front, and is killed. While he is absent his mother dies, and his father is incapacitated from earning his livelihood. 5753 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - Does the honorable senator desire to put incapacitated fathers in the same position as mothers? 5753 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - 'I think it ought to be clone. 5753 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - It is not covered by this amendment. The Senate will agree to include a woman who has a husband so incapacitated that he is not only no help, but, to some extent, a handicap to her in the battle of life. The amendment puts her in the same position as widowed mothers whose husbands are incapacitated. Senator Bakhap's suggestion is open to consideration, but it opens up the very wide question whether all the relatives of the soldier are entitled to be included in the scope of the scheme. I would ask the Committee to think very seriously before doing that. This is the very door through which crept all the abuses which have marked the American pension system. While individual cases appeal to our sympathies, I ask Senator Bakhap to let the measure remain with the present liberal amendments, until in the light of experience we see that further amendment is necessary. 5753 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I recognise that in dealing with amendments between the Houses it is difficult to induce the Government or the Senate to accept alterations that mean an alteration of principle, but I appeal to the Minister to see if he cannot draft this clause so widely that every 5754 Australian Soldiers' [SENATE. ] Repatriation Bill(No. 2). case of real hardship to mother and father or dependant can be met. Take the case of two men doing their share in this war. One is a soldier who heard Che call to the colours, and immediately enlisted. Perhaps I can better explain what I mean by an illustration. I was in the town of Scone the other day, and a gentleman was pointed out to me who had put £100,000 in the war loan - quite a creditable thing to have done. I am making no complaint of that, but before I left that town I met two men driving out in a sulky to a shearing shed. The younger one opened his shirt, pulled down his collar, and showed me the marks of shrapnel wounds all round his neck. I could not help contrasting what Australia had done for those two different cases. The man who had. put £100,000 into the war loan would draw £4,500 a year in interest free from taxation for the whole currency of the loan in return for what he had done. 5754 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - For which he can thank you as well as any one else. 5754 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Exactly. I am not complaining of the man getting that return for his bit, but we ought to be very careful to see that those who have taken greater risks do not have cause to draw contrasts. The other man was so badly wounded' that though he was quite fit for work again and anxious to return to the Front, the doctors would not let him. He was going up to work as a shearer, to earn something. For every pair of boots he buys at £1 he pays 5s. duty, and for every suit of clothes he buys he pays25 per cent. duty, while when he wants a smoke he pays 4s. in the pound weight of tobacco, and that money will go to pay the interest to the man who put £100,000 into the loan to buy clothing food, and equipment for him while he was fighting. 5754 K3B 0 0 ROWELL, James Senator Colonel Rowell - That is what you were saying at the by-election in New South Wales the other day. I read it word fo word. 5754 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Exactly. It is much easier to speak when one has something prepared, and it is much better reported here, and secures much wider publicity in Hansard, because the newspapers do not report one fully. The point I want to mention is that no one raises a voice against the man who puts £100,000 into war loans and secures interest for it. If we deal so generously with wealth, we should be quite as generous towards men who have fought for us. I will give the Committee particulars of a case that is not provided for under this measure. 5754 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The last case is provided for. 5754 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I do not think the case I am about to mention is covered by the Bill. I refer to the father of two lads who went to the Front. One was killed, and the other, upon his return, got married. The father is now too old to work, and the young man who returned is not able to earn enough to meet all the needs of the family. Will the Bill meet a case like that ? If it does not, it should. I know that the Minister has as much sympathy with these matters as any other honorable senator, but I maintain that cases of real hardship like this are calculated to make men think there is something unfair in the measure. The Bill should be so drafted as to leave no case of real hardship in regard to dependants of our soldier unprovided for. It is the duty of the Ministry to see that this is done. It is not the duty of the Opposition to suggest, or oppose, or fight for any particular phase of the. Bill. In this matter I am following the excellent example set by Senator Millen himself in regard to war measures when he was in Opposition, and resting the responsibility upon the Government, criticising them, of course, when necessary, but not unduly interfering with them, or unduly taking up the time of the Senate.I therefore appeal to the Minister to see that the measure, when it finally leaves the Senate, provides for every legitimate case of hardship in regard to our soldiers' dependants, not classifying any particular section. I suggest that the Minister should, if necessary, adjourn the debate to allow of time to so frame a clause that it will represent perfectly the desires of the community toward our returned soldiers. 5754 K8L NEW SOUTH WALES NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS . - I understand that the clause now under consideration deals with the mothers of soldiers who have been to the Front. 5754 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - Widows or mothers' with incapacitated husbands. 5754 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - I should like to know, then, what would happen in the case of a mother who has never been married? 5755 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - An ex-nuptial child is treated ordinarily, and an unmarried wife, although not expressly provided for in the Bill, will, by my Department, be regarded as a wife. 5755 K18 Tasmania 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP . - I should like to draw the attention of the Minister (Senator Millen) to the case I alluded to a few moments ago, by way of interjection. His is a new portfolio, and in connexion with this measure, for which he has been particularly responsible, I took up the attitude that, as he had given a good deal of study to the subject, and probably knew a great deal more about it than any other honorable senator, it was my duty, seeing that it was largely a machinery Bill in the first instance, to give the measure a trial. I do. not think I intervened either in the debate on the second reading or- 5755 10000 0 0 SHANNON, John The CHAIRMAN ( Senator Shannon - Order! I ask the honorable senator not to make a second-reading speech. He is now dealing with the general principles of the Bill. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - There are other phases of the particular amendment now before the Committee to be considered, and I desire to give particulars of a case which I "have in mind, without mentioning names. The father of a soldier who went to the Front was really incapacitated before his son went. This young joan was the eldest in the family, which included several young children, and the mother was having a hard struggle, even with the assistance of the eldest son, to keep things together on a kind of bush farm. This young fellow, like a brave man, enlisted, went to the Front, and, unfortunately, lost his life in battle. I had considerable difficulty in connexion with some financial considerations which had to be shown to the mother after the soldier had embarked, and I point out that since the death of this soldier the mother has died, leaving the incapacitated father and several small children to struggle on as best they can on their bush holding. In a case like this, the incapacity of the father is the real reason for giving consideration to the mother while she is alive, and if she dies, the family is handicapped to a much greater extent; so there is additional reason for consideration being shown to the incapacitated father. I respectfully suggest, therefore that an amendment should be drafted to meet cases like this, and without opening the door too wide, to place an incapacitated father of a soldier in the same position as a mother with a«n incapacitated husband. 5755 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - Why not include sisters and brothers ? 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - I am not prepared to discuss that. 5755 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I presume the honorable senator means an incapacitated father dependent upon a son who has enlisted. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - Yes. The incapacity of a father is a reason for showing consideration to a mother if the son who has enlisted has been incapacitated or has lost his life in battle. 5755 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - If the honorable senator will link up incapacity and dependants the position might be met. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - I respectfully suggest that the amendment from the other, place provides an opportunity to include incapacitated fathers in the scheme of relief. 5755 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - Is there no relief under the present position ? 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - I understand there is not. 5755 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator Senior - Not if the mother dies. 5755 K1I 0 0 BARKER, Stephen Senator Barker - I know of a similar case myself. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - I have hastily drafted an amendment which, I think, might be suitable, namely, to add the following as a new sub-paragraph : - The fathers of deceased or incapacitated soldiers who are so incapacitated as to be unable to support themselves 5755 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - -That does not include the condition of dependency, which I regard as important. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - In a most friendly way, then, I suggest that the Minister, because of his superior knowledge, should be able to overcome the difficulty more readily than I can on the spur of the moment. 5755 JRW 0 0 CRAWFORD, Thomas Senator Crawford - In any case assistance is discretionary under this clause. 5755 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator BAKHAP - The incapacity of a father, as I have already pointed out, is the reason for consideration being shown to a mother, and if she dies there is all the more reason why the family should receive consideration, because, 5756 Australian Soldiers' [SENATE.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). while alive, she may have been a woman of resource, and may have been able to do a good deal towards the maintenance of the family. 5756 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - With the permission of the Committee, I move - That consideration of the amendment be postponed. That will enable me, possibly, to place in a more completed form an amendment embodying the suggestion of the honorable senator. 5756 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - May I suggest also that the Minister, in dealing with the point raised by Senator Bakhap, take into consideration at the same time some such amendment as, " Provided that nothing in the Bill shall prevent the Minister from dealing with any case of hardship and from giving relief to either the parents or the dependants of any soldier " ? Motion agreed to; amendment postponed. Clause 9 - Section 12 of the principal Act is a mended - by adding at the end of sub-section (2) the words " for the granting of assistance and benefits to any of the classes of persons specified in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), and (d) of section 22 of this Act, or for any other purpose prescribed by the regulations." House of Representatives' Amendment. - After "Act" in paragraph (b) insert - " or to any relative or person not specified in paragraphs (b), (c), or (d) of section 22 of this Act who was dependent upon any deceased or discharged sailor or soldier prior to his enlistment." 5756 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I move - That the amendment be amended by striking out the words, " discharged sailor or soldier " and inserting in lieu thereof the words " incapacitated Australian soldier." The reason for my motion is that the clause will thus be brought into conformity with the terms of the original Act. The portion of the Bill in question deals only with the functions of the Local Committees; and while the Act makes some restrictions as to the classes of people entitled to the benefits conferred by Local Committees, it was deemed desirable that those Committees should be left free with respect to those to whom they might extend the benefits of their operations. The simple purpose of the amendment, as I have now moved to amend it, is to leave the Local Committee's untrammelled with respect to those whom they desire to assist out of their own funds. The insertion of the words, " Australian soldier " will cover both soldier and sailor, since the definition clause sets out that " soldier " includes " sailor." Senator GARDINER (New South Wales) [3.44]. - In striking out the word " discharged," would that place outside the provisions of the Bill a man who is neither a soldier nor a sailor, since he has been discharged ? 5756 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - No. The definition clause indicates that a man who has been a member of the Australian Imperial Force is covered by the term " soldier "; and that term includes also "sailor." Motion agreed to. Amendment, as amended', agreed to. Clause 16 - Section 21 of the principal Act is amended by omitting the words " the repatriation of Australian soldiers or for any purpose connected therewith " and inserting in their stead the words " any patriotic fund or any fund in relation to the war." House of Representatives' Amendment. - Omit all words after " amended " and insert - by omitting the words 'invite subscriptions or organize any scheme for raising money for the repatriation of Australian soldiers or for any purpose connected therewith ' and inserting in their stead the words ' invite subscriptions or raise money by any means whatsoever for any patriotic fund or any fund in relation to the war'." Senator MILLEN (New South Wales- Minister for Repatriation) [3.46]. - I move - That the amendment be agreed to. This is really a verbal amendment in the sense that it is designed to set out more clearly the principle agreed to in the original measure. It is necessary that there should be some central controlling authority over the various efforts to solicit public subscriptions. It will be remembered that there was a general demand for that at the time of the consideration of the original Arbitration Bill. It was thought that, by centering the authority in the trustees who were appointed under the Bill, and, through them, in the State War Councils, that would be providing Australian Soldiers' [12 June, 1918.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). 5757 necessary safeguards. The authority has now been transferred to the State Boards, but the words used in the Arbitration Act are not considered sufficiently embracing. 5757 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - Can the Minister (Senator Millen) inform me whether it is considered desirable to close up any of the funds which have been doing good work practically since the commencement of the war ? Is the amendment intended only to control those funds so that, under fair conditions, the patriotic people interested could always secure permission to carry on their activities as hitherto? My reason for putting the position in that way is that I have great fears that a specific organization, which has been doing good work, if it is not permitted to augment its funds in the manner in which it has been accustomed, may have to cease operations. I ask the Minister to give me an assurance that there is no intention to do anything of that character whatever. 5757 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I can give the honorable senator no assurance as to any particular fund. Authority rests with the State Boards, but it is not intended that there shall be any restriction upon legitimate effort. That which I assume was in the minds of members of Parliament when the original section' was passed was that it was necessary to have some authority which, for example, would prevent a clash of dates upon which various patriotic efforts might be undertaken. We all know of instances where it was clear that the exercise of some controlling authority was necessary, if only for the protection of the public, and to prevent that leakage which is almost bound to occur when efforts promoted for the best purposes are not properly organized. But the question of the continued operations of any. body rests with the State Boards, and I do not expect that those authorities would exercise their powers in an arbitrary manner. 5757 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - I accept the assurance of the Minister, and will take the opportunity of interviewing him privately, when I shall try to show him that something has been done which, in my opinion, has not been quite legitimate. I can only assure the Minister that every individual connected with the association that I have in mind has been a keen voluntary worker. All activities have been entirely honorary, and, indeed, many of those connected with it have almost impoverished themselves in their efforts to keep up the fund in question. 5757 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I will be glad to confer with the honorable senator. 5757 JXV SOUTH AUSTRALIA ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS . - I do not know whether this is the proper place to raise the matters to which I wish to refer, but I direct the attention of the Minister for Repatriation (Senator Millen) to the fact that in South Australia provision has been made for grants for homes for soldiers and their relatives. Until recently it was the practice to make a grant of £675 for the purchase of a home, but latterly the grant has been reduced by £75, and is now fixed at £600. The deduction of the £75 in many cases makes all the difference between procuring a home for the soldier and his relatives and not procuring one. We are all aware that at the present time nothing much in the way of a home can be procured for £600 in any part contiguous to the city where workmen have to live. I ask the Minister whether he will see that the allowance for those desiring to procure a home shall be restored to £675. Another matter to which I wish to refer is that returned soldiers have been in the past allowed a sum of £25 for the purchase of furniture, when they take up housekeeping again. I understand that this allowance has been discontinued. I believe that the Minister for Repatriation is as anxious as any one can be that every facility shall be afforded to our soldiers to re-establish themselves on their return. These matters are of considerable importance to the returned soldiers. An allowance of £25 is a substantial allowance for commencing housekeeping in a small way. I hope that the deductions in allowances previously given, to which I have referred, will be restored. With regard to the amendment;, I am not aware whether in the case of a fund established under the authority of the Repatriation Department it is competent for the managers of the fund to raise money for the insurance of the lives of soldiers. I should like the Minister to look into the matter? 5758 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The honorable senator means, for instance, such a fund as exists in Adelaide? 5758 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Yes, the Soldiers' Fund. I wish to know whether it is competent for the managers of that fund, under the auspices of the Repatriation authorities, to invite public subscriptions in order,, as is proposed in South Australia, to provide an insurance of £100, in each case, for the benefit of relatives of soldiers who have fallen nr. the Front, lt is proposed that the scheme shall be made retrospective, and shall apply in the case of all soldiers who have fallen, from the commencement of the war. 5758 K3B 0 0 ROWELL, James Senator Colonel Rowell - Does the honorable senator say that it is intended to raise the whole of the money necessary to give effect to such a proposal? 5758 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Those concerned desire to be in a position to pay from £75 to £125 in respect of every deceased soldier from South Australia who had relatives dependent upon him. I am not criticising the scheme, but asking the Minister for guidance, in order that those who have proposed it may know the position in which they will be placed. I might add, as one who has taken considerable interest in recruiting, that I am anxious to know whether, when I go upon a recruiting platform, I shall be justified in inducing recruits to join up by telling them that such a scheme as I have referred to is feasible, and has the approval of the Repatriation* authorities. I should like to have been in a position to put the matter privately to the Minister, because I could then say many things which the Chairman of Committees will not permit me to say here. 5758 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen -. - The honorable member would say more to me than he can say to the Chairman. 5758 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Yes, because the Chairman of Committees has an awkward way of keeping honorable senators to the point - though I must say that I have no reason to complain this afternoon. I again direct the attention of the Minister to the points I have raised. T think we are all animated by the desire to make the repatriation scheme as just and as generous as we possibly can. 5758 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - There is one matter to which I wish the Minister for Repatriation (Senator Millen) would give some consideration. Throughout the Bill the words " sailor or soldier " are used. The sailor is virtually the man on deck. The term does not cover men below - such as the engineer, the stoker, or the steward. I should like the Minister to consider the advisability of substituting the word " seamen" for the word "sailor" in the Bill. The word "seaman " would cover every one on board the ship. 5758 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - The definition of persons benefiting under the Act includes " any one serving, or who has served, during the present war in the Naval or Military Forces." The men to whom Senator Guthrie has referred are certainly serving. 5758 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - It would be far better to use the word " seaman " instead of the word " sailor,"' as that would bring Hie phraseology into harmony with our merchant shipping law. I commend the suggestion to the Minister when reconsidering the clause which we have postponed. Senator MILLEN (New South Wales- Minister for Repatriation) [3.59]. - If I thought it at all necessary I should willingly adopt the suggestion put forward by Senator Guthrie. If it had been made when the Bill was being drafted there might have been much to commend its adoption, but it is not now competent for us to alter the interpretation clause, and to use a different term in one clause would make the different interpretation applicable only to that clause. 5758 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - I mean that the word " seaman " should be used throughout the Bill. 5758 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - If Senator Guthrie will turn to the definition section of the original Act he will find that any person is deemed to be an Australian soldier within the meaning of the Act who - is or has been during the present war a member of the Naval or Military Forces, enlisted or appointed, for, or employed on active service outside Australia, or employed on a Mp of war. t submit that that is sufficiently wide to include all the persons to whom Senator Guthrie- has referred. 5758 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The use of the word " sailor " is wrong. A stoker is not a sailor: 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - He is serving in the Naval Forces. 5759 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - An engineer is not ;i sailor. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - But the measure will apply not only to a sailor, but to tuy one who has served or who is serving. I do not know that I can add any more to what I have said, but I give Senator Guthrie the assurance that I am perfectly satisfied that the definition includes all to whom he has referred. I will undertake that if it is found in the administration of the Act that for nome reason or another it does not, I shall immediately, by administration, include such persons as Senator Guthrie has referred to, and come later to Parliament for the necessary amendment of the law. I would not allow a technicality to deny to any member of the Naval or Military Forces a right which Parliament intended he should have. 5759 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator Guthrie - The honorable senator will not always be Minister for Repatriation. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I feel sure that any Minister administering the Act will take that view. With regard to some of the matters raised by Senator Newland, the honorable senator appeared himself to be conscious that they did not quite come within the scope of the amendment. I do not know anything of the constitution of the fund to which he referred, or the purposes for which it was raised, so I cannot express a definite opinion on that point, but I shall be glad to have a chat with the honorable senator on the .subject later on. He was not quite right in saying that the furniture grant has been abolished. It has not, but the conditions of the grant have been altered. Originally it was granted in such a way that every returned man seemed to think that he had a right to it, and' many to whom it was of no benefit as an aid to setting them up again in life, and some who did not want it, claimed it and got it. The principle governing its allotment now is that it shall be granted only in those cases where the purpose is to re-establish a man in civil life. I think that that is a principle which has much to commend it. 5759 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - It has been refused in several cases that I know of. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - That may be so. The revised regulation was passed within the last fortnight, and the principle now adopted may not yet be fully known. Under the new principle, wherever a grant for furniture will help a returned man to establish a home, or, it may be, to accept a situation, it will be made, but it will not be granted merely because it i3 claimed. With respect to the matter of housing, I have only to remind honorable senators that there are many difficulties in the way of proposing a general housing scheme, to say nothing of the enormous cost involved. The difficulties are so great that the Repatriation Commission did not feel that they were ready to launch a general scheme at the same time as the regulations were put forward. 5759 K3B 0 0 ROWELL, James Senator Colonel Rowell - The grants are only loans. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - That is so. I hope before long to be able to put forward a complete scheme. When honorable senators realize that the majority of the returned men would possibly become applicants under any generous housing scheme, they will see at once the tremendous financial responsibility involved. I may feel justified in asking Parliament to make the necessary provision to meet a reasonable and sound scheme, and one that will be fairly generous to the returned soldiers. But it is not easy to link the two things together. 5759 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Many men who. after their return, were detained in hospitals for months, missed their opportunity to take advantage of the allowance provided, while men who returned only recently in fairly sound health have had the benefit of the advances. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - It is quite true that those who have returned since the new system was introduced will, in some cases, miss benefits that previously existed, whilst they will secure benefits which previously did not exist. 5759 JXV ALP; NAT from 1917 0 0 NEWLANDS, John Senator NEWLANDS - Some men who returned before the alteration of the system were too ill to take advantage of it. 5759 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - I may inform the honorable senator that no man whose application was in before the new system was proposed was turned down. His application is treated as though it were 5760 Australian Soldiers' [SENATE.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). matured before the new system was brought into vogue. The matter is one which interests us all, and perhaps on that account I have been tempted to speak longer than I intended. I assure honorable senators that I appreciate the various suggestions that have been made, but I will have the sympathy of the Committee when I say that unless we want the whole scheme to break down, we must avoid incurring expenditure that may do no real good to the returned soldier. Motion agreed to. Clause . 17 - Section 22 of the principal Act is amended - by omitting paragraphs (b) and (c) thereof and inserting in their stead the following paragraphs: - in the form of free passages from abroad to Australia, to the wives and children of Australian soldiers - who have been declared by the competent Military Medical Board at Australian Imperial Forces Head-quarters abroad to be medically unfit for military service, and who have been returned, or whom it is proposed to return, to Australia, or where, by reason of special circumstances, the Commission considers that assistance and benefits should be granted, to- the widowed mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers who, prior to . the enlistment of those soldiers, were dependent upon them." House of Representatives' Amendment. - " Leave out sub-paragraph ( i ) of paragraph (c) and insert - who have been declared by the competent Naval or Military Medical Board at the head-quarters abroad of the Australian Naval or Military Forces to be medically unfit for service, and who have been returned, or whom it is proposed to return, to Australia, or" 5760 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - This amendment is merely the natural complement to the first amendment that we adopted. It will bring another clause dealing with the same subject into conformity with the new verbiage that we have adopted. I move - That the amendment be agreed to. Motion agreed to. House of Representatives' Amendment. - "Leave out sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph (d) and insert - to the mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers - who are widows and were, prior to the enlistment of those -soldiers, dependent upon them, or whose husbands are so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to their support." Motion (by Senator Millen) proposed - That the amendment be agreed to. 5760 KNB South Australia 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE . - Will the Minister agree to the insertion of the words "or sailors" after the word " soldiers " in the clause? 5760 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I do not think that those words are necessary, in view of what is contained in the definition clause of the Bill. 5760 KNB 0 0 GUTHRIE, Robert Senator GUTHRIE - I think they are. Anybody who has to interpret this measure will say that a man who is employed on board a ship is not a soldier. Motion agreed to. House of Representatives' Amendment. - " After clause 17, add the following new clause: - A report of the operations under the Australian Soldiers' Repatriation Act shall be furnished annually." Motion (by Senator Millen) proposed - That the amendment be agreed to. 5760 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - I think we should agree to this amendment, because it provides that Parliament should be annually furnished with a report of the work done by the Commission. I do not know how many persons are already employed on the staff of the Repatriation Department, nor do I know how many more it is contemplated employing. But evidently the Department is going to be a very big one. We already have a Minister whose attention is devoted almost exclusively to the Department, and as more of our soldiers return to Australia we may expect that the staff of the Department will increase very materially. I should like this annual report to contain a statement showing what has been done in the way of land" settlement. We hear a good deal of talk Australian Soldiers' [12 June, 1918.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). 5761 about the work that is being accomplished by the various State Governments and by the various Local Committees. But only the other day we were confronted in Melbourne with a. deputation consisting of 500 or 600 returned soldiers who assured us that they were out of work and were unable to procure employment. 5761 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - When was that? 5761 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - About three weeks ago. Statements of the same character have appeared in the Sydney press. I think that the annual report should disclose exactly what is being done, not only in the way of finding employment in our secondary industries for returned soldiers, but what is being done in the direction of settling any of them permanently on the lands of this country. 5761 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - I think the honorable senator may take it for granted that that information will be supplied. 5761 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - I do not know. Official reports very often neglect to take cognisance of the most important matters. 1 would like to see a statement in the annual report of the estates which have been purchased by the Government, the prices paid for them, and their valuation for taxation purposes. 5761 10000 0 0 SHANNON, John The CHAIRMAN (Senator Shannon - Order ! The honorable senator is getting rather wide of the question that is before the Chair. 5761 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - I certainly wish to see a complete report of the lands which have been purchased, and of the prices which have been paid for them. It is not fair to attempt to settle returned soldiers on land that has been purchased at fictitious prices. 5761 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order ! That matter is quite outside the scope of the amendment. The honorable senator will have an opportunity of discussing it later on. 5761 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - Then I shall avail myself of that opportunity. 5761 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I think that Senator Grant may possess his soul in patience. He may be perfectly certain that in an annual report presented to Parliament a responsible Department will endeavour to cover the whole field of its operations. When the first report is presented, Senator Grant will doubtless be here, and will then be able to take exception to any omissions from it. Motion agreed to. Clause 6 (Postponed amendment) - Section 8 of the principal Act is amended by omitting paragraphs (b) and (c) thereof and inserting in their stead the following paragraphs: - where, by reason of special circumstances, the Commission considers that assistance and benefits should be granted, to - the widowed mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers who, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, were dependent upon them." House of Representatives' amendment. - " Leave out sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph d, and insert - to the mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers - who are widows and were, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, dependent upon them, or whose husbands are so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to their support." 5761 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I move - That the amendment be agreed to with the following addition : - "and (iv) the incapacitated fathers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers who were prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, dependent upon them." 5761 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Cannot the Minister omit the latter portion of that paragraph ? 5761 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN -I cannot. That is the very danger which I fear. If it were possible to do it, I would have no objection to the insertion of a simple clause in the Bill which would give everybody everything they ask. 5761 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - Every deserving person. 5761 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - But that raises the question of who is a deserving person. 5761 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator Gardiner - That is easily settled. 5761 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - It is when an honorable senator is sitting on the other side of the chamber. But we have only to consider the experience of America in connexion with its pension bill to sec the evil that has to be guarded against. Today America has a bigger pension bill than she had when the Civil War terminated. My proposal represents a very fair effort to meet those cases which stand out as clearly entitled to consideration. I ask the Committee, therefore, to accept it. If, in the light of experience, it is 'found necessary to widen the Act, it will be easy to do so. It will be easier to widen it, as the result of experience, than it will be to close down upon applicants later on. 5762 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - The injustice which will be inflicted by the latter portion of the Minister's proposal is so obvious that I cannot understand his attitude. Take the case of a father who is in a really good position to-day, and whose son makes the supreme sacrifice. A few years hence that father may experience a reversal of fortune, as the result o'f which he may be left in his declining years without the son who would have been his support. Yet he will be prevented from getting any assistance under this Bill. Thus the door will be closed to perhaps the most deserving cases which could be dealt with. Such cases will not be few, but many. Take the case of a man who has made the education of his sons his chief object in life. He may have made no provision for himself. His sons may be killed on the battlefield, and, perhaps, ten years hence, when he is in declining health, he may be urgently in need of support, but will be unable to get it. 5762 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - It is a question of responsibility. 5762 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I would put the responsibility on the Minister. If we say that a father who is not now dependent upon his sons, but -who ten years hence may require support, shall receive no consideration, we shall be treating wealth very differently from the way in which we are treating manhood. I move - That the amendment be farther amended by adding the following words to the proposed addition: - "Provided that nothing in this Act shall prevent the Minister from dealing with every case of hardship, and giving relief to either the parents or dependants of any soldier." 5762 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - The amendment is one which, in a general sense, will appeal to everybody's sympathies. But what does it amount to ? It seeks to throw on the Minister the responsibility of accepting or refusing every application made by anybody who can prove that he has suffered in the remotest degree, either now or twenty years hence. If Parliament wishes to do that, it ought not to throw the responsibility on the Minister. It ought to say, by means of a schedule, what it proposes to do. That would make the thing comparatively easy of administration, but to throw ou the Minister or the Department the responsibility of determining the degree of* relationship, dependency, or hardship, and the bona fides of the case, without some indication of what Parliament wants, is asking altogether too much. If the honorable senator represents any considerable body of opinion here, the way to give effect to it is, not by such a general, vague resolution as this, but by specific proposals in the direction of a new and wider Bill, which will set out with considerable particularity what is desired. I should shrink from administering a clause of that kind, and I ask the Committee to negative the proposition, not as an indication of want of sympathy with deserving cases, but because of its impracticability. 5762 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I realize that it is difficult to devise a clause to meet all the conditions that may arise. I have been trusting to the Minister for Repatriation (Senator Millen) and the Government to make ample provision for all the dependants of soldiers -who will be left in poverty because of the fact that men have died fighting for us. It reads very well for the Minister to tell me to introduce a new Bill, but honorable senators know that a private member has no hope of getting a Bill through, particularly when he is in a minority of two to one. In every Bill that has come before us we have provided for an ample return to the man who puts money into the war, but we shrink from the cost of making an adequate return to those who have put their lives into the war. It is pleaded that we should not saddle the Minister with responsibility. If I were the Minister administering the Act ten years' hence, and a man who is now well off came to me in reduced circumstances, caused through losing his two sons at the war, I would not shrink from doing my best to help him. It is a big thing to repatriate our soldiers; but I have had experience of the hardships that occur under the Old-age Pensions Act. The most deserving cases are shut out from relief because of the wording of that Act. and are struggling along under conditions that are a disgrace to our civiliza- Australian Soldiers' [12 June, 1918.] Repatriation Bill (No. 2). 5763 tion. Minister after Minister has admitted, and Under-Secretaries have admitted, that that is so; but they are powerless to go beyond the Act, and it must be remembered that Under-Secretaries are more careful than . Ministers, because they have the continuous responsibility of administering the Act, while Ministers come and go. I want to avoid, so far as our soldiers are concerned, the state of tilings that has occurred under the Old-age Pensions Act. I am not wedded to the amendment, which I wrote out hastily, but it is wide enough to give the Minister an opportunity to relieve every deserving case. 5763 KUL 0 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator Millen - What is your standard of "deserving"? 5763 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I would be prepared to say that a deserving case was one in want owing to the fact that a son had died or had been incapacitated lighting for us. I would go so far as to say that the want must be directly attributable to the sacrifice of the son. Here and now we have a chance to open the gate to deserving cases, but the Minister proposes to shut them out for fear that undeserving cases may get through. He may do so if he wishes, but I shall press the amendment to give the Committee the opportunity to do the right thing. 5763 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - I support Senator Gardiner's amendment, of which the very vagueness and openness please me. I should like to see something like it in all our pensions and charitable laws. An old boilermaker whom I served my time with came to see me the other day. He had got the old-age pension, but it was not enough to keep him, so he went out rabbit-trapping and earned a few pounds. The result was that his pension was stopped, because he had earned more during the year than he was entitled to under the Act. The official administering the Act wants to help him, but cannot do so, because that is the law. The law has him tied down, and my contention is that the law should be open enough to avoid hardships of that kind. The man is now stranded in Sydney. These are the cases we have to look to, and, therefore, I shall support a wide proposal such as Senator Gardiner has put before us. 5763 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR . - Senator Gardiner's amendment is not within the scope of the clause. His amendment is general, and the clause deals only with specific cases. Question - That the amendment (Senator Gardiner's) be agreed to - put. The Committee divided. 5 16 Majority . . 11 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Motion (Senator Millen's) agreed to. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Resolutions reported. Motion (by Senator Millen) agreed to- That the message be recommitted for the reconsideration of amendment No. 6. In Committee (Recommittal) : Clause 17 - Section 22 of the principal Act is amended - by omitting paragraphs (0) and (c) thereof, and inserting in their stead the following paragraphs: - where, by reason of special circumstances, the Commission considers that assistance and benefits should be granted, to - the widowed mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers, who, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, were dependent upon them. House of Representatives' amendment. - Leave out sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph (d) and insert - to the mothers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers - who are widows and were, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, dependent upon them, or 5764 Income Tax [SENATE.] Assessment Bill. whose husbands are so incapacitated as to be unable to contribute materially to their support. 5764 KUL New South Wales NAT Minister for Repatriation 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - I inadvertently told Senator Senior that there was no need in this clause to include the amendment agreed to by the Committee, at the instance of Senator Bakhap, in clause 6, because it was already provided for in this clause. I find that that is not so. I, therefore, move - That the amendment be amended by adding the following new sub-paragraph : - " and (iv) the incapacitated fathers of deceased or incapacitated Australian soldiers who were, prior to the enlistment of those soldiers, dependent upon them." This will bring clauses 6 and 17 into entire conformity. Motion agreed to. Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Resolution reported; reports adopted. 5764 bill Bill returned from the House of Representatives with the message that it had agreed to some of the amendments made by the Senate; had agreed to one amendment with an amendment; had not agreed to the amendment to omit clause 38, but in place thereof had amended the said clause, and had disagreed to the remaining amendments. Motion (by Senator Millen) agreed to- That the message be taken into consideration forthwith. In Committee: Clause 14 - Section 18 of the principal Act is amended - by omitting paragraph (h) of subsection (1) thereof and inserting in its stead the following paragraph: - (i) payments made during the continuance of the present war to any patriotic fund Senate's Amendment. - " At end of paragraph (f) add the following new sub-paragraph: - gifts exceeding twenty-one shillings each to public charitable institutions in Australia, if the gifts are verified to the satisfaction of the Commissioner." House of Representatives' Message. - Amendment amended by the omission of the words "twenty-one shillings," and by the insertion of the words " Five pounds " in place thereof. Senator MILLEN (New South Wales- Committee will remember that when this Bill was under consideration previously a sub-paragraph was inserted providing that gifts of 21s. and upwards to the public charitable institutions of Australia should be exempt from income tax. It was pointed out in the other House, however, that it would be extremely difficult to trace and identify such small donations, and that at the same time where amounts were so small the remission to the taxpayers would be comparatively negligible. The House of Representatives, therefore, amended the provision by striking out the words " twenty-one shillings " and inserting " Five pounds." I move - That the amendment be agreed to. 5764 K8L NEW SOUTH WALES NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS . - I am rather in favour of the amendment inserted by the House of Representatives, though I am sorry to see even £5 mentioned as the amount of exemption, because, so far as concerns donations to public charities or patriotic funds, I would prefer no exemption at all. People give to these funds from philanthropic or patriotic motives, and it seems strange that we should insert a provision granting exemption from income tax payments in respect of such donations. I think that when the Committee of the Senate fixed the amount at 21s. there was some slight misunderstanding as to the manner in which the amount should be calculated. 5764 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - I think the purpose of the amendment moved by Senator O'Loghlin, fixing the amount at £1ls., was that the exemption should refer to an accumulation of such gifts, that it should refer to a number of donations of £1ls. to any of the institutes referred to. I should like to know from the Minister if the amount is to be calculated in that way, or if the amendment refers to single donations. 5764 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - Gifts of that amount would -not be recognised, because of the difficulty in tracing them. We all know that people give small amounts to various public institutions; but it would be extremely difficult for them to demonstrate that they had made these gifts in order to secure exemption from income tax. Income Tax [12 June, 1918.] Assessment Bill. 5765 5765 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Then I think we ought to wipe the clause out altogether. 5765 KUL NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN - There may be something in that view; but I ask the Committee to recognise the practical impossibility of identifying small amounts of £11s. 5765 K8L NEW SOUTH WALES NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS . - I am rather surprised to hear what the Minister has said. I understand, now, that if a person gives £50 in gifts of £1 each to a charitable institution, he will be granted no exemption from income tax in respect of the total : whereas, if a person gives £5 in any single gift, he will be entitled to exemption. That is rather unfortunate, and I shall be glad to vote against the proposal. 5765 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I think we should strike it out altogether. I realize, with Senator Millen, the difficulty of tracing gifts, and that the real benefit to the taxpayer by way of remission of taxation will not be very much. If the striking out of the provision results in a curtailment of donations to the institutions referred to, then we should still have power to make up any deficiency by way of direct taxation. The Minister will be well advised to strike out the provision altogether. I do not want to stress this question of unfairness in dealing with different classes of the community; but I point out that a gift of £11s. is a large amount for a man with a family to maintain on the wages of an ordinary tradesman, whereas a gift of £5 5s. would not be much to a man like, say- Senator Pratten. I do not wish the honorable senator to think that I am making an unfair comparison. I am merely quoting his position as compared with mine. If we both were out of the Senate to-morrow, £5 would not be very much to him ;. whereas, £11s. might be a great deal to me. Income taxation is down amongst the poorer people in the community to-day; and if we are not going to grant exemption in respect of gifts of £11s., while we propose to grant exemption to a man who can afford to donate £5 to a charitable institution, that is a form of class distinction which I shall not support. 5765 K1J New South Wales 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN . - In the original Act there was provision granting exemption in respect of gifts exceeding £20, and when that was struck out in another place, and the measure came before the Senate, it was thought that it would tell very hardly probably on some institutions, if some provision were not made in respect of gifts to those institutions. At times, large gifts come to our hospitals, and it was felt to be inequitable if a heavy amount of income taxation was also levied upon large donors. When this clause was under review, it was felt, too, I think, that if it was fair to make deductions in respect of contributions for repatriation and other similar patriotic purposes, it was also fair to make deductions in respect of contributions to hospitals and similar institutions. I think it would be distinctly unfair to these institutions to strike out the clause altogether ; because they are not included in the clause granting remission of income taxation in respect of donations to repatriation and other patriotic objects. While I appreciate the Very vivid illustration given by Senator Gardiner, I think it is hardly worth while, and, indeed it is almost ridiculous, to insert a clause exempting donations of one guinea because the taxation on those amounts would be only a few shillings. The real reason for the incorporation by the Senate of the provision in the Bill was to cover big donations to institutions that were not provided for in the other clause to which I have already referred. I think a reasonable compromise has been made in another place by inserting the words " Five pounds " instead of "twenty-one shillings " - a compromise as between £20, as originally provided, and one guinea, as passed by the Committee of the Senate. I hope my honorable friends opposite will consider carefully the effect of striking out this provision, because it will have a considerable influence on very large donations to deserving institutions throughout the Commonwealth. 5765 KTD New South Wales 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDOUGALL . - I intend to move - That sub-paragraph (iii) of paragraph / be left out. After the remarks made by the financial expert of the Senate (Senator Pratten), I feel more convinced than ever that I am right in asking the Committee to strike out the provision altogether. Senator Pratten laid stress on the fact that, if exemption is not granted, donations to the institutions referred to may be affected, but I do not think this will trouble some of the wealthy people very much. A mistake seems to have been made with regard to this clause. Senator Fairbairn first moved that the amount should be £20. Then he was induced to alter it to £1 ; and after that he wanted it back to £20 again. Then when Senator O'Loghlin moved that the sum should be 21s., that amendment was agreed to without any honorable senator really understanding the whole of the facts. I am pleased now that Senator Pratten has given reasons why I should move that the whole matter be struck out. The difficulty and trouble of having to supply proof to the Taxation Commissioner will be considerable, while the benefit to be gained by the individual will be relatively trifling. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Motion (by Senator McDougall) proposed - That the Committee disagrees to the amendment of the House of Representatives, and does not insist on its own amendment. 5766 JU7 Western Australia 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator DE LARGIE . - I hope the Committee will not be led into a serious blunder. The near future will prove that very great efforts will be required on the part of the public to provide sufficient funds for dealing with repatriation. We should not place any possible obstacle in the way of donations. Take the case of a rich man who desires to leave a large share of his wealth to the Repatriation Fund,, and has provided to that effect in his will. After his death it would mean a very serious item to have to pay income tax out of the estate without any remission in respect of the generous donation. Does it strike honorable senators as quite fair that, while on the one hand the authorities may be accepting a very large gift for the repatriation scheme, the Commissioner of Taxation, on the other, may require a very heavy payment of income tax out of the estate, without any remission? Such a situation might well discourage the making of bequests of that nature. 5766 K1J New South Wales 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN . - The specific purpose of the Senate in its amendment under review was that contributions other than to the Repatriation Department or to various patriotic funds, should also be included in the exemptions- from payment of income tax. The Bill already provides for remission of income taxation in connexion with payments made during the continuance of the war to any patriotic fund for any purpose connected with the war, " if the payments are verified to the satisfaction of the Commissioner." It also provides for exemptions and remissions in the case of contributions to the Department of Repatriation, " provided that the value of the contribution shall be verified to the satisfaction of the Commissioner." The Committee is now dealing with an addition which, if incorporated in the Bill as proposed by the Minister, will permit of remission in connexion with contributions to hospitals and other benevolent institutions. If the amendment of Senator McDougall is carried it will only mean the striking out of the words which were previously inserted in the Senate, and will not affect exemptions already given under the Bill. I wish it to be clear, therefore, that in rejecting the subparagraph in question, we will not do away with remissions in connexion with contributions to the Repatriation Department and to patriotic funds. We shall only be cutting out exemptions upon contributions to philanthropic institutions. We shall be placing a handicap upon hospitals, and that will be an invidious distinction. 5766 KTD 0 0 MCDOUGALL, Allan Senator McDougall - Do you think any man would withhold his subscription to a hospital for that reason? 5766 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN - It is an extremely inconsistent course to grant remission in one case and not in the other, and for that reason I shall vote for the amendment as it stands. If honorable senators would say that they were not prepared to give exemptions of any kind I could understand their attitude; but the point is that that principle could not be asserted at this stage in dealing with. the measure. 5766 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - I am glad Senator Pratten concluded in the way he did. The Senate inserted an amendment that exemptions should bc granted upon any gifts amounting to 21s. Another place has raised the amount to £5. That makes it merely a matter of granting remission either upon a small gift or upon one which is- a little larger; but the inconsistency is that a man would get no remission of income tax if he contributed £.1 a. week all the year round, whereas he Income Tax [12 June, 1918.] Assessment Bill. 5767 could secure exemption if he gave only the one lamp sum of £5. Take the case of the tramway men of Sydney. They taxed themselves voluntarily to the extent, I believe, of10 per cent. of their income. The money largely went to the purchase of material for making various things for the military hospitals. That good course was continued until the men went out on strike. Of course, the loyalists now will not do anything like that. "Week after week the old unionists paid their money in as regularly as though they were adding to their banking accounts. They got no remission upon their payments. If remission may be had upon gifts of 21s. that will affect a great number of people, while if the amount, is raised to £5 there will be comparatively few who will be able to take advantage of the exemption. Some honorable senators say that the withholding of any exemption will have its effect upon large contributions. There are many rich folk who, out of the goodness of their hearts, give large donations and do not consider whether they may receive remission of taxation. As for the argument of Senator de Largie, that wealthy people may be discouraged from making bequests under their wills, that reminds me of an article which I read in a certain Sydney newspaper, dealing with Senator Pearce, in which the writer incidentally mentioned that Senator de Largie was the dullest man in the Senate. As a matter of fact, that writer could not have been in this chamber since either Senator Earle or Senator Plain arrived, or he would never have "written in a manner so grossly unjust to Senator de Largie. 5767 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - What has this to do with the Bill? 5767 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - . Nothing. Probably it is only the old feud between us. Senator de Largie said, in effect, that we should not inflict injustice upon those who have passed away. Honorable senators should consider the great amount of trouble that will be caused in the Taxation Department in verifying all claims for exemption : and then they should remember how little the amount of remission will total.I shall vote that the sub-paragraph be struck out, because it makes an invidious distinction, and is unjust. 5767 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - Provision might be made in the Bill as it stands for donations of £1 per week. 5767 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I do not want such a provision. I do not think it would be worth anything. I do not believe that there is any demand for exemption from income tax in respect of these donations. The man who gives £1,000 to any -of these funds does not care whether he will secure exemption from income tax because of it or not. He makes his donation because his heart is in the business, and the fact that he will be exempt from income tax in respect to the amount of his subscription is not an incentive to him to give it, and the abolition of such a provision would not prevent him from contributing to these funds. The provision exemplifies, in an objectionable manner, the difference between the way in which we treat the wealthy and the rest of the community. If we make an allowance by our legislation for the man who gives a large amount, we should make an equal allowance for the man who gives a small amount. One man may give a small amount frequently, while another, because it may be of some importance to him, may give a large sum very occasionally. This provision makes an invidious distinction between those who can afford to give largely, and those who cannot. 5767 K8L NAT 0 0 THOMAS, Josiah Senator THOMAS - If we apply the provision to a donation of £1, some persons might give 5s. per week. 5767 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I quite agree with the honorable senator. I am not supporting the application of the provision to donations of £1. I am prepared to vote to wipe out the whole thing. 5767 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - What does the honorable senator intend to support; the striking out of the provision altogether, or agreement with the proposal carried here? 5767 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - I support the striking out of the provision altogether. We should not tolerate these invidious distinctions. I object to provisions in our legislation intended to appeal to certain persons, and to make it appear that we are specially considering them. Our legislation should do what it purports 'to do. Special provision to give relief to certain persons, and to meet special cases, will always fail. We can only safely legislate in a general way, realizing that our legislation should apply equally to the whole of the people. 5768 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - Is the honorable senator going to exempt donations to patriotic funds, and not to hospitals ? 5768 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - If the provision dealt with patriotic funds, I should deal with it in exactly the same way. 5768 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - But we have already passed the other provision. 5768 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - In my opinion it should not have been passed. But now that our attention is drawn to the matter, and we are able to deal with it, we should decide that this kind of thing shall cease. 5768 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - Two wrongs do not make a right. 5768 KKZ 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER - Because we have done one wrong, we should not therefore tlo another. As a matter of fact, two wrongs do sometiir.es make a right. If I gave the honorable senator a bad shilling, that would be a wrong, but if he gave it to Senator Thomas, while it would" be a wrong, it would make him right. So that it may be argued that two wrongs sometimes make one right. The objectionable feature of this provision is that it marks in our legislation class distinctions. It holds out an exemption of income tax to those who can afford to give large sums, and honorable members in another place seem to have deliberately, by their proposal, shut out from the same consideration those who cannot afford to do so. Because of this distinction I shall vote against the motion. 5768 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - In my view it is unfortunate that we should have proceeded so far as we have done with this invidious system of taxation. This is a part of the punishment which must be inflicted, not only upon the members of the Committee, but upon the public generally, because of the methods adopted for raising national revenue. We are now asked to exempt from income tax donations which goodhearted people are prepared to give to hospitals. I think it is a very good idea to exempt such donations, because I believe that from stem to stern the income tax law is upon a wrong basis, and should bo repealed as soon as possible. 5768 10000 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Bakhap - I ask the honorable senator to keep to the amendment, and not to discuss the income tax generally. 5768 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - This proposal is one which meets with my approval, because it limits the amount of taxation which can be derived under this Bill. 5768 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - What would the honorable senator put in its place? 5768 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - A straight-out land value tax. 5768 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - The honorable senator will not be in order in discussing a land value tax. 5768 KMP 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT - My remark was entirely due to the disorderly interjection of Senator de Largie, who seems to have forgotten the taxation principles which guided his early youth, and to have wandered away into this mil de sac for national taxation. The proposal made in another place did not, in my opinion, receive the attention there which it should have received. It has been proposed that gifts exceeding 21s. to public charities may be deducted from the amount upon which the taxpayer has to pay. It would have been better if it had been suggested that the deduction should apply to " gifts of or exceeding 21s." As the amendment; stands a person would require to give 21s. Id. to secure the proposed exemption. This illustrates the absurdity of the proposal. Merely on the ground that it will reduce the sources from which income taxation may be derived, I am prepared to support the proposal. 5768 JXJ Western Australia 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM . - The arguments put forward by Senator Gardiner are incontestable. There can be no doubt that if we accept the amendment of the House of Representatives we shall institute a class distinction under this Bill. It is well known that during the war the citizens of Australia have contributed generously in response to appeals for hospitals, Red Cross, and other patriotic and charitable purposes. I venture to say that many men in receipt of very small wages have contributed an average of between £10 and £12 a year to various charitable movements. They will continue to make further contributions in the future. Under this amendment a man who gives 2s. to a fund to-day and 3s. to-morrow, though his contributions in the course of a year may amount to £10 or £12, will receive no exemption from income tas Income Tax[ 12 June. 1918.] Assessment Bill. 5769 in respect of those payments, whilst the man who is in a position to give £5 in one sum is at once entitled to exemption. The Minister in charge of the Bill (Senator Millen) made no reply to the practical suggestion by Senator McDougall to make the provision apply cumulatively to donations of 21s., so that if any person gave 21s. weekly to a public charitable institution, he might secure exemption in respect of the total amount he contributed during the year in that way. As to the position arising in connexion with a contribution of £5 as against a contribution of £11s., Senator de Largie was apprehensive that the provision might interfere with contributions to the Repatriation Fund, but Senator Pratten has pointed out that that is provided for. If the Committee accepts the amendment moved by Senator McDougall, no charitable institution in Australia will suffer. No man in the habit of giving a donation to a hospital will cease to do so because the amount will not be deducted from the amount upon which he will have to pay income tax. 5769 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - But we shall be giving a premium to other contributions. 5769 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I do not think so. There is a vast difference between a patriotic fund and a charitable institution. 5769 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - This is not only patriotic, but charitable also. 5769 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - It is charitable in the first instance, because long before the war broke out people were in the habit of making contributions to hospitals. The word " patriotic " has been introduced since the outbreak of the war, and it is very often misapplied in this connexion. I fail to see how Senator de Largie can suggest that the Repatriation Department should be regarded as a charitable institution. This clause deals with public charitable institutions, and no honorable senator will dare to say that the Repatriation Department is a charitable institution. 5769 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - It is both charitable and patriotic. 5769 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - Repatriation is the duty of the nation. 5769 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - I direct the honorable senator's attention to the fact that we are not discussing repatriation. 5769 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - I am replying to the statement made by Senator de Largie, who appeared to think that the Repatriation Fund would be injured if the amendment were carried. 5769 JU7 0 0 DE LARGIE, Hugh Senator de Largie - The honorable senator is endeavouring to put a stigma on charity. 5769 JXJ 0 0 NEEDHAM, Edward Senator NEEDHAM - It is impossible to put a stigma on charity. The honorable senator, no doubt, unintentionally suggested that the Repatriation Department is a charitable institution, but it is the duty of the nation to look after repatriation. It should be provided for whether gifts are made to the Repatriation Fund or not. If any one desires to make a donation to the fund, it will naturally be accepted, but the work of repatriation should not depend on any donation, and the fund should be provided in the fulfilment of a national duty. The Committee will be acting wisely in agreeing to. the amendment moved by Senator McDougall. Question - That the Committee disagrees to the amendment of the House of Representatives, and does not insist on its own amendment (Senator McDougall's motion) - put. The Committee divided. 6 13 Majority . . . . 7 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Motion negatived. 5770 Income Tax [SENATE.] Assessment Bill. Motion (by Senator Millen) - That the amendment be agreed to - put. The Committee divided. 14 7 Majority . . . . 7 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. Clause 38 - Section 57 of the principal Act is amended by inserting before the word "Fifty" the words "not less than Five pounds nor more than." Senate's amendment - Leave out the clause. House of Representatives' Message - Amendment not agreed to, but clause amended by leaving out " Five pounds " and by inserting " One pound" in lieu thereof. 5770 KUL New South Wales NAT 1 0 MILLEN, Edward Senator MILLEN . - This is one of a number of amendments in which, departing from the practice which has previously obtained in our legislative enactments, the other House has inserted a minimum as well as a maximum penalty. I am not at all certain that I was not one of those who suggested the advisableness of keeping this measure in conformity with all the other enactments of this Parliament. However, the Bill has come back from the House of Representatives with an amendment giving a reason why a minimum as well as a maximum penalty should be adhered to. That reason is that magistrates throughout Australia take such widely different views of the same offence. In some cases the magistrates inflict a fine of a few shillings for an offence for which other magistrates mulct an offender in a fine of some pounds. In these circumstances it has been thought better that Parliament should indicate for the guidance of magistrates the minimum penalty which should be inflicted for a given offence. I move - That the Committee does not insist on its amendment and agrees to that of the House of Representatives. 5770 K5R South Australia 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR . - This amendment seems to me to open up a very wide field because what will apply to this Bill will apply also to Acts which have been passed by this Parliament - Acts in which a maximum penalty has been prescribed. The reason advanced by the other branch of the Legislature for the proposed amendment is, to my mind, insufficient. It might just as well be argued that a magistrate should be compelled to inflict either the minimum or the maximum penalty. 5770 K1J 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator Pratten - There are qualifying words. 5770 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - Hitherto in our legislation the maximum penalty, and not the minimum, has been inserted. To my mind, it is a wise plan to provide for a maximum penalty alone. But under this one man may be fined £2 and another man £10for the same offence. I do not think we are acting wisely in departing from the custom which has hitherto obtained. Hitherto our Federal Statutes have been remarkable for their clearness and uniformity. 5770 K18 0 0 BAKHAP, Thomas Senator Bakhap - Not too much clearness. 5770 K5R 0 0 SENIOR, William Senator SENIOR - I have many times heard it remarked by those who are accustomed to deal with Statutes that our Federal Acts are very much clearer than are the State Acts. In the early days of the Federation this was especially the case. In the present instance we are asked to depart from a very wise precedent. This is scarcely the measure in which we should institute such a departure, even if it be necessary. 5770 K1J New South Wales 0 0 PRATTEN, Herbert Senator PRATTEN . - The particular amendment now before us deals with clause 38 of the Bill. The Senate struck out the clause in its entirety. In another place the provision has been re-inserted, with an amendment substituting £1 for £5. The clause deals with penalties, and if we agree to the Income Tax,[12 June, 1918.] Assessment Bill. 5771 amendment which we are now considering the clause will read - Section57 of the principal Act is amended by inserting before the word " Fifty " the words " net less than One pound nor more than ". 5771 KKZ New South Wales 0 0 GARDINER, Albert Senator GARDINER . - Senator Senior appeals to me when he argues that this is exceptional legislation and that we are getting away from the fine old principle which has worked so well hitherto. We all know of cases where a person is technically guilty, and where the magistrate has expressed his sorrow that he has had to inflict a penalty, although there has been no real offence. Power should be left to a magistrate where only a technical breach of the taw has been committed to impose a nominal fine of, say,1s. We should refuse to break away from the old principle of fixing the maximum and allowing the magistrate to say what the minimum shall be. Many cases may arise in which a fine of £1 is exorbitant. True justice demands that the penalty shall be commensurate with the offence, and if we insist upon a penalty that is out of proportion to the offence, people will become dissatisfied with our Courts of justice. I shall adhere to our previous decision to wipe out the minimum penalty. One pound is a considerable amount of money to a great many people, though it may seem nothing to those who are accustomed to handling thousands. To leave the minimum to the discretion of the magistrate is safe, satisfactory, and in accord with all our previous legislation. 5771 KMP New South Wales 0 0 GRANT, John Senator GRANT . - Those who drafted the original Income Tax Act worded section 57 in this way, no doubt for very good reasons - Any person who obstructs or hinders an officer acting in the discharge of his duty under this Act or the regulations shall be guilty of an offence. Penalty : £50. The Minister now assures us that under the Acts Interpretation Act £50 may mean only1s. To honorable senators who, on the advice of Ministers, are prepared to vote millions of pounds in a few hours, it may seem a very small matter whether the fine is£1 or £50, but, to the person who has to pay it, it may mean a great deal more than he can rake up. Surely we can rely on. the magistrates to exercise their judgment and impose a fine commensurate with the offence. 5771 JZC ALP 0 0 O'LOGHLIN, James Senator Lt Colonel O'LOGHLIN -Colonel O'LOGHLIN (South Australia) [5.41]. - The Minister (Senator Millen) has not made out a very good case for abolishing the minimum. He advanced the reason that there is a wide variation in the decisions of magistrates'. That is probably because there is a wide variation in the cases that come before them, but this proposal does not prevent that variation, because the fines may still vary from £1 up to £50. All it does is to prevent them going below £1. There may be many cases of nominal offences where no penalty is really deserved, and the magistrate should have power to inflict a nominal fine. Senator Senior has put forward the good old Conservative rule, which particularly appeals to us on this side that we should observe the wisdom- of our forefathers, who decided that there should be no minimum., but that vindictive penalties should be prevented by the inclusion of a maximum. Question - That the Committee does not insist on its amendment, and agrees to that of the House of Representatives - put. The Committee divided. 12 7 Majority ... ... 5 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. Remaining amendments of the Senate not insisted upon. Resolutions reported; report adopted. 5771 17:51:00 Senate adjourned at 5.51 p.m.