1943-09-30 17 01 01 SEN 193 0 Senate 1943-09-30 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Gordon Brown) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. 193 Questions 193 193 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT Will the Minister representing the "Treasurer endeavour to supply honorable senators with copies of the latest report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission before the bill to make grants to certain States comes before us for consideration? 193 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Valentine Senator KEANE I shall endeavour to have copies of the report issued immediately. 193 193 KTX 1 0 McLACHLAN, James Senator JAMES McLACHLAN The budget papers now before the Senate show that the liability of Australia under the lend-lease agreement with the United States of America was about £60,000,000 last year, and that during the coming year it will be about £100,000,000. Will the Minister representing the Treasurer make a short statement to the Senate, before we. discuss the budget, setting out the main features of the position with regard to the agreement, and showing the chief items of expenditure incurred by the Commonwealth Government? 193 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Valentine Senator KEANE As honorable senators are aware, the White Paper relating to the lend-lease arrangement between 37 allied countries contains a condition inserted by the American Congress that the details of the arrangement shall not be made public, but I undertake to give to the, Senate a resume of the total assistance which Australia has received. The honorable senator has already referred to a sum of about £60,000,000, which represented Australian liability under the agreement last financial year. We have received a generous measure of aid from the United States of America. A rough departmental estimate of the value of lend-loose goods received in Australia up to the end of July last, based on the conventional exchange rate between the dollar and the Australian £1, places the total figure at about £148,000,000. Assistance under the agreement is flowing more steadily into Australia at the present time than at any stage of the war. I shall also 'indicate later the class of goods received, and the main items of expenditure under the reciprocal arrangement in connexion with the carrying out of allied works and the supply of food for allied troops in this war zone. 193 193 K0Z 0 0 AYLETT, William Edward Senator AYLETT asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice - What was the national debt of Australia when the war broke out? What was the annual interest bill of Australia at that date? What is the national debt of Australia at the present date? What is the annual int1'!rest bill of Australia to-day? 194 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Valentine Senator KEANE The Treasurer has supplied the following answer:- 194 PRODUCTION-SUPPLIES FOR INDIA 194 KBH 0 0 WILSON, Keith Cameron Senator WILSON asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture; upon notice - What steps has the Government taken to make wheat available to the starving millions in Bengal? In view of the food shortages in India and the need to make provision for the feeding of the peoples in occupied countries when those countries are released from the Nazi yoke, will the Government remove the restrictions on the production of wheat? 194 KKR 0 0 FRASER, James Mackintosh Senator FRASER The Minister for Commerce and Agriculture has supplied the following answers: - Large quantities of wheat have been exported to India during the present year. Large additional supplies could be exported from South Australia and 'Western Australia to the full extent of the shipping available. Australia does not control overseas shipping resources and must depend upon shipping which can be made available by the United Nations having regard to urgent war needs of many kinds. The Government will consider its policy in regard to the control of wheat production in the light of circumstances from time to time. At the present time, ample supplies of wheat are available in South Australia and Western Australia for export to India. Taking Australia at a whole, the reduction in wheat acreage is due to man-power problems and to reductions in the available supply of super phosphates for reasons which are well known to honorable senators. 194 KQF 0 0 LAMP, Charles Adcock Senator LAMP (through Senator LARGE) asked the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, upon notice- Will the Minister negotiate with the Indian Government to supply that country with wheat under a lend-lease arrangement in order to relieve the masses of people who are starving owing to the failure of rice supplies? 194 KKR 0 0 FRASER, James Mackintosh Senator FRASER The Minister for Commerce and Agriculture has supplied the following answer :- Trade between Empire countries is not conducted under lend-lease arrangements but on ordinary trade terms. Large quantities of wheat have already been supplied to India and further supplies are available to the full extent of shipping available. Australia does not control overseas shipping resources and must depend upon shipping which can be provided by the United Nations, having regard to urgent war needs of many kinds. 194 motion 194 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That a Standing Orders Committee be appointed to consist of the President, the Chairman of Committees, Senators Cameron, Crawford, Darcey, Herbert Hays, Keane, Lamp and A. J. McLachlan, with power to act during recess, and to confer with a similar Committee of the House of Representatives. 194 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That a House Committee be appointed, to consist of the President, Senators Armour, Aylett, Brand, Cooper, Nash and Uppill, with power to act during recess, and to confer or sit as a Joint Committee with a similar Committee of the House of Representatives. 194 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That a Printing Committee be appointed, to consist of Senators Arnold, Cooper, Courtice, Gibson, J . B. Hayes, Allan MacDonald and Tangney, with power to confer or sit as a Joint Committee with a similar Committee of the House of Representatives. 194 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That a Library Committee be appointed, to consist of the President, Senators Armstrong1 Collett, J. B. Hayes, Lamp, Sampson and Tangney, with power to act during recess, and to confer or sit as a Joint Committee with a similar Committee of the House of Representatives. 195 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That a Standing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances be appointed, to consist of Senators Aylett, Cooper, Herbert Hays, Large, Allan MacDonald, Nash and Tangney, such senators having been duly nominated in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 36A. 195 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That, in accordance with the provisions of the Commonwealth Public works Committee Act 1913-1936, the following senators be appointed members of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, viz: - Senators Aylett, Brand and Lamp. 195 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That, in accordance with the provisions of the Australian Broadcasting Act 1942, the following senators be appointed members of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Broadcasting, viz: - Senators Amour, Darcey and Allan MacDonald. 195 motion 195 Debate resumed from the 29th September (vide page 149), on motion by Senator TANGNEY - That the following Address-in-Reply to His Excellency the Governor-General's Speech be agreed to: - MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY: We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Australia, in Parliament assembled, desire to express our loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign, and to thank Your Excellency for the Speech which you have been pleased to address to Parliament. 195 10.42 KR9 Victoria 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE Supporters of the Government have shown reluctance to discuss the contents of the speech of His Excellency the Governor-General. The day after the exhausted as the result of their strenuous, although successful, efforts of the last few months. They appeared to have no energy left to justify the declaration of policy which the Government had prepared for His Excellency. I do not know whether it was a case of " Softly: softly", with the tiger creeping on its prey, or whether the strenuous election campaign had left honorable senators opposite so tired that they had not sufficient enthusiasm to indicate what was meant by the speech, or how the Government intended to implement the policy outlined. On the whole the speech was innocuously vague. It did not show how the Labour party intends to implement its policy. The first 20 paragraphs of the speech consisted of stale information. It set out to inform the people on matters on which they had been well informed, in contra-distinction to the action of the Government and its supporters during the last few months when they mis-informed an already mis-informed public. An explanation of the significance of the speech has, with one exception, been left to the mover and the seconder of the motion. Those honorable senators spoke well, and with the modesty that becomes new members. They are to be complimented upon their initial efforts but they said some things which seem to me to be direct negatives of parts of the policy laid down by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin) and the labour party generally in the last two years. An honorable senator from Western Australia referring to the granting of preference to members of the services, said that she did not believe that preference should be given to any one section of the community. Such an opinion might have been expressed by an honorable senator who belongs to a party that sits on this side of the chamber. 195 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE She said that it should not be necessary. 195 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE She said that she is not in favour of preference being given to any one section. One thing which the Labour party has always favoured is the giving of preference to one section. Is the honorable senator to whom I have referred a true-blue Labourite? Does she subscribe to the time-honoured claim of the Labour party that preference in employment should be given to trade unionists? She has the gift of expression and realizes the significance of the language that she uses. Therefore, the statement that she does not believe in preference being given to any one section of the community must indubitably mean that she is opposed to the principle of preference to unionists. That is all to the good. It shows that at last the bitter class spirit which has inspired the members of the Government party is disappearing as it gains an accession to its strength, and that one honorable senator at all events is prepared to treat the people as a whole and to deal with them fairly on the one basis. The gravamen of the Speech of His Excellency the Governor-General is contained in paragraphs 26 to 31; and even they do not contain very much. Paragraph 26 says that the Government is preparing plans for the organization and development of the resources of Australia in peace. Exactly what is meant by "the resources of Australia", we do not know. If the intention be to establish new industries, that is all to the good, and is the sort of thing that I would expect from airy go-ahead government. Paragraph 27 promises that provision will be made for certain social services, without which, it is said, any scheme of reconstruction will be in vain. That is a little new. I have a vivid recollection of members of the present Government party, when in opposition, violently opposing a very fine scheme of social assurance that was introduced by a previous government. Therefore, the Government now proposes to do that which its members previously utterly opposed. Paragraph 28 says. My Government will continue to make adequate provision for the restoration to their rightful place in the civil life of our fighting forces. I invite the Senate to note particularly the use of the expression "will continue to make adequate provision". Does that mean that the provision to be made is to be along the lines of action already taken; that the Government does not propose to do other than merely continue what it has already done for' the small number of men who have returned to civil life? If that be the case, the intended provision will be quite inadequate; something more will have to be done for the members of the fighting services en bloc than merely finding them jobs in what are war industries-which, after the war, will no longer exist. I should like to have a much more definite pronouncement than is given in paragraph 28 of the proposals of the Government for the reinstatement of the fighting forces in civil life. Paragraph 20 reads: - It is also planning the re-establishment in post-war industry of those who have been diverted to war production. Paragraphs 28 and 29 are equally emphatic. No distinction is drawn between those who are risking their lives and sacrificing themselves for their country, and those who remain behind in perfect safety, drawing higher wages than they have ever previously received-some of them, I acknowledge, under compulsion. The Government practically indicates that those two groups will be regarded as of exactly the same degree of importance. Paragraph 3,1 reads - Proposals will be submitted to enable the Commonwealth Parliament to deal effectively with the problem of post-war reconstruction. This problem, which will clearly have to be approached from a national standpoint will include such important matters as the instatement and advancement of the Australian fighting forces and their dependants, the provision of employment and the prevention of unemployment, the rehabilitation and development of primary and secondary industries … There we have the gist of the matter. In some of the opening speeches, reference was made to the Atlantic Charter. Senator Tangney expressed the hope that the Atlantic Charter would be endorsed in its entirety. I am afraid that she was referring only to what are known as " the Four Freedoms". I point out that the Atlantic Charter contains other provisions which are vitally different from "the Four Freedoms". It is as well, at a time like this, to repeat one of its provisions, in order that no misunderstanding may exist; because we are apt to select one or two salient points, such as "the Four Freedoms", and allow the remainder to sink into obscurity. Clause 4 of the Atlantic Charter provides that the nations subscribing to it "will endeavour, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access on equal terms to the trade and the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity ". If that means anything, it means that, when Japan and Germany have, been defeated, the trade of Australia will be thrown open to competition by those against whom we have been fighting and by whom untold misery has been brought on the world, including, perhaps, Australia. The only qualification is" with due respect for their existing obligations". It is just as well to know what the Atlantic Charter contains, and to consider the obligations it will cast upon us. I should imagine that the Government has some idea of how the post-war trade of Australia will have to be carried on. If it is to be along the lines laid down in the Atlantic Charter, without any qualifications, the Government should let the people know whether it intends to implement those provisions, in order that our industrial loaders may be acquainted of the conditions which they will have to face in the post-war period. Let us not talk by and large about the Atlantic Charter, and endorse it completely, until we know exactly what it means and infers, and what effect it will have upon the industrial and primary producing section of this country. Practically the only exponent of Government policy who has so far spoken has said that we must adopt the Atlantic Charter in its entirety. I want the Government to state whether or not that is the policy it is determined to follow. If so, then it will have to do some hard thinking if it is to provide employment for the whole of our people and do away with unemployment. There is another hurdle which the Government should immediately negotiate by a clear declaration of its policy. The people have granted to it a mandate to implement its policy, which has always been the nationalization of practically everything. I, and those controlling the industries of Australia, want to know whether or not it intends to implement that policy. 197 KOL 1 0 McBRIDE, Philip Albert Martin Senator McBRIDE Of course not; that is only for show purposes. 197 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE should imagine that any worker, examining the world trend of affairs and seeing that the war is tending a little in our favour, would say to himself, "I am working in a war industry, turning out munitions. It looks as though we have the first glimmer of hope of its terminating at a not very distant date. I can visualize the disappearance of the war industry in which I am engaged. When that occurs, I shall 'have to settle down in civil life again and engage in civil production. Who is going to provide me with a job? Will my employer be the owner of the factory in which I worked for ten, fifteen or twenty years before the war, or will I become an employee of the Government, working in a new industry under government control? In other words, the worker will want to know whether his previous "boss" is to provide him with employment at Arbitration Court rates of pay or whether he must look to a factory owned and controlled by the Government for the means of earning a livelihood after the war. As he contemplates his future he will probably say to himself, "I have been a factory worker for many years. In the factory where I now work I have seen going on things which must cause the cost of producing the articles made to be at least 50 per cent. Above what the same articles would cost under the private management to which I was accustomed before the war". If he thinks intelligently he will know that a factory can continue production only if it receives orders for the articles that it makes; he will know, too, that orders can come only from a prosperous civil population. If be has a logical mind, he will know that work in any factory cannot continue indefinitely unless orders are received for the articles that it turns out. Eventually, he will reach the conclusion that unless the Australian factory can produce goods at prices which will enable them to compete with the products of other countries he will soon be without a job. Then be will say, "What does the Government intend to do about this matted" 197 K0W 0 0 ASHLEY, William Patrick Senator ASHLEY The present Government will do better than previous governments did after the war of 1914-18. 197 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE The repetition of statements of that kind-statements which I describe as clap trap-enabled the Labour party to win the election. The Postmaster-General (Senator Ashley) knows that his statement is inaccurate, because he must be aware that when the Government which preceded the Curtin Government went out of office scarcely a person in the community was out of work. 198 K0W 0 0 ASHLEY, William Patrick Senator ASHLEY How many were out of work prior to the war? 198 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE My point is that the cost of producing articles in factories wholly or partly controlled by the Government is 30 per cent., 50 per cent., or even more than similar articles cost before the war. Increased cost cannot be attributed solely to higher wages and unskilled-labour. Some of it is the result of lack of discipline in factories, due to the knowledge that employees cannot be sacked nor can they leave of their own accord. 198 K7P 0 0 COLLINGS, Joseph Silver Senator COLLINGS The percentages mentioned by the honorable senator are gross exaggerations. 198 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE No. I have my information from more authoritative sources than has the Minister who has interjected. Some of the information on which I have based my statement is within my own knowledge. One of the first things that the Government should do is to tell the people of Australia whether it intends to take over Australian factories and run them as Government concerns, or will allow private enterprise to go ahead with its plans for the post war development of various industries. The Government must know that those in control of both primary and secondary industries have appointed committees to consider post-war problems with a view to deciding how they shall carry on after the war and what things they will endeavour to produce. Should the Government decide to implement its policy for the nationalization of industry, all those plans will go by the board. In Britain and the United States of America the authorities have decided to continue to depend on individual enterprise in the industrial life of those countries. That means that workers there will continue to depend on individuals and companies, and not on the Government for their means of livelihood. The Commonwealth Government also must come to a decision in this matter; and that decision should not be delayed. The Government knows that the reserve funds of most Australian companies are being taken away in taxes. 198 K0C 0 0 ARMSTRONG, John Ignatius Senator Armstrong That is not so. 198 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE After the war, manufacturers will have to replace worn-out machinery and obtain fresh stocks. They must plan now for that time, and they should know before they make their decision what the policy of the Government will be. On the one hand, the Government can say to industry, "After examining the position, the Government is convinced that private enterprise can still do a good job in providing employment for those who need it. Go ahead with your post-war planning, and the Government will render all assistance in its power". But, on the other hand, the Government may say, "It is useless for you to go ahead with your plans, because the Government intends to take over your establishments which in future will be controlled by the Government". It is time that the Government told industry where it stands in this matter. I wish to be assured that the words, "The problem of post-war reconstruction will include such important matters as the provision of employment and the prevention of unemployment, the rehabilitation and development of primary and secondary industries.", have not been included in paragraph 31 of the Governor-General's Speech without any thought by the Government as to whether or not that rehabilitation and development is to be entrusted to private enterprise. No indication that a decision in this matter has been reached is indicated in either the Governor-General's Speech or the Treasurer's budget speech. This morning a question was asked relating to the lend-lease arrangements with the United States of America. I realize that in this matter the Government is in a difficult position; that probably accounts for its "hush-hush" attitude. We on this side of the chamber are not to be told what the lend-lease arrangements mean; the people of Australia also are to be kept in ignorance. No information regarding the effect of the lend-lease armaments when put into reverse is supplied to the people, but it is safe to assume that at the end of the war Australia will be a bit behind and will have nothing on the debit side of its ledger. I should like some more information on this subject if it can be given; otherwise, we shall have to guess what the result is likely to be. 199 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Valentine Senator KEANE I shall give to the honorable senator all the information that can be given. 199 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE It appears to me that for some of the goods that Australia supplies to American forces the prices charged are below cost, whereas, on the other hand, ridiculously high prices are charged for goods which come here from the United States of America. Naturally, I am worried as to how it will all work out. I have been informed that for some machines which were ordered from Great Britain at a cost of £3,000 or £4,000, American manufacturers to whom the orders were transferred have charged four or five times the original price. That applies not only to goods brought from the United States of America to Australia but also to goods obtained by New Zealand. I realize that in the settlement of the lend-lease arrangements other things besides money and goods will be taken into consideration. In this connexion I draw attention to a statement made in Sydney last year by Mr. Alden G. Smith, the head of the Lend-Lease Mission when addressing the Economic Society' in Sydney. He then said there is little doubt that, at the termination or the war, no nation will have either principal or income sufficient to pay war debts, and the repayment must be sought from some other than the time-honoured currencies. It appears that, in a war of this magnitude, all of the Allies must be prepared to accept large write-offs, whether they be in terms of internal debts foreign balances, or inter-governmental obligations, and consider that there has been adequate satisfaction of debt, in services and benefits less tangible than gold or international exchange. I may be going too far in suggesting that certain of the Allied Nations are working towards a common currency, but in part, at least, lend-lease is beginning to provide a common method of payment. I confess that I do not thoroughly understand the last sentence, but the first part of his statement is true. 199 KE4 0 0 KEANE, Richard Valentine Senator KEANE Some mouths ago the Government circulated a White Paper in connexion with this matter. 199 KR9 1 0 LECKIE, John William Senator LECKIE I am not blaming the Government, but am pointing out the difficult position which it must face. Whether Australia be in debit or in credit when the lend-lease business has to be settled after the war, the fact remains that the problems will be difficult. Much will depend on the goodwill of the nations involved. It is important that at an early date the Government should make a pronouncement stating whether the industries of Australia are to be carried on by individual enterprise or will he taken over by the Government. The Government should give an assurance on this point to those engaged in secondary and primary industries. It should be made clear that the Government is prepared to help industry, but that it will not interfere so long as industry provides employment for those who need it. Industrialists could then go ahead and make plans designed to raise the country to a state of prosperity, and to improve living conditions to such a degree that even honorable senators opposite would approve. However, they cannot do that if they are under the constant fear that, when the war is over, or even before, the factories that they have established by their own energy and initiative will be taken away from them. Of what use is it to make plans for post-war. undertakings if there is no prospect of security? The Government must reassure businessmen that it is safe for them to plan large-scale undertakings, within the scope of the Atlantic Charter, so that they may be in a position to compete with manufacturers in other parts of the world. Although the speech of the Governor-General was innocuous and vague, it still indicated that there are problems which the Government must face. If it faces them fearlessly; and with the intention and desire to draw all classes of the community into one magnificent effort to restore the prosperity of the country, then the Opposition will stand behind it; but if it Shilly-shallies, if it fails to take decisive action, then it will depart from its 'place of power as quickly and as absolutely as it was raised to that place. 199 11.17 JQY Queensland 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE Senator Leckie expressed disappointment because the Governor-General's Speech did not reveal in specific terms the Government's policy for dealings with the various problems that confront the country. However, if he studies the speech' carefully, he will see that it contains a definite indication that the Government fully rea1izes the problems before us, and is taking steps to solve them. He will also find indications that the Government proposes to bring down legislation to implement Labour's policy. Like other honorable senators I desire to congratulate the mover and seconder of the Address-in-Reply, both of whom represent Western Australia. It is pleasing to me that on this occasion, when, for the first time in the history of the Commonwealth in this chamber we have a woman as the representative of a State, she should have shown herself as the possessor of great ability. She has made a most favorable impression upon honorable senators. To her colleague, Senator Nash, I also offer my congratulations. I am sure that he will be an acquisition to the Senate, and that. He will apply himself seriously to his duties. I do not think it will be out of place to offer my congratulations to the Leader of the Opposition (Senator McLeay) upon being selected by his party to hold that position. There is not generally a sufficient realization of the importance of the Opposition in Parliament, or of the services it renders to democracy. The opposition has a responsible duty to discharge. After having listened to the speeches of the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition I can only say that I sincerely hope that they will continue to occupy their present positions for a long time. It is a great satisfaction, after a lifetime of political effort, to find that the people of Australia have at last exhibited a proper appreciation of values, and have placed the Labour party in power and its political opponents in opposition. It has been no pleasure to me to listen to the gloomy utterances of honorable senator opposite. I believe that we should take time to be grateful that this country has been spared the horrors of invasion. I am convinced that Australia has made a magnificent war effort. We all recognize that there has been in some instances unsympathetic administration by persons of little understanding, with the result that people engaged in civilian production have had to endure hardships. Notwithstanding this, however, it is true that the country has made a great war effort, and we have a great deal for which to be thankful. Senator Leckie referred to one important matter, namely, the position of Australia under the lend-lease agreement. There is a great deal that we do not know about this subject, but I do know that in the far northern parts of Queensland there is unmistakable evidence of the tremendous contribution which the United States of America has made to our war effort. Figures alone can give no indication of what has been done, nor of the quantity of machinery and other equipment that has been brought into Australia. It would be a good thing if members of Parliament could visit the far north and see for themselves what has been accomplished there. It might have cost a tremendous amount of money, but it is very largely because of what has been done that we are still in possession of this country. Where would we have been if we had not succeeded in preventing the invasion of Australia? It is difficult to assess these things in figures, or to draw up, a balance-sheet regarding- them. I feel sure that the Government fully realizes what American aid means to Australia, and that, in the end, an adjustment will be made that will be fair to everyone. The scale of assistance which we have received from the United States of America leads me to believe that the final adjustment will be fair to Australia. I was disappointed that honorable senators opposite, when paying a tribute to our fighting forces, seemed disposed to give but tardy recognition to the gallant efforts of our Militia. I do not know whether this is due to political prejudice, but there certainly seems to be a reluctance on the part of honorable senators opposite to do justice to the Militia and their efforts in New Guinea. We hear praise for the efforts of our men in other theatres of war, but I am sure that when the history of this struggle is written it will be made clear that the Militia in New Guinea has done a wonderful job, one worthy of all praise. 200 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT How can there be political prejudice? 200 JQY 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE I do not know why there should be, but I have felt it in this chamber. It has been constantly suggested that the Militia does not stand on the same high pinnacle as the Australian Imperial Force. 201 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT It has not had the same opportunity. 201 JQY 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE Well, the men of the Militia have had an opportunity recently. 201 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT And they have justified themselves. 201 JQY 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE They have discharged their obligations in a manner worthy of the best traditions of our fighting forces. I was amazed to hear recently the criticism levelled by Senator Wilson against the direction of our armed forces. In common with other motorists, I have had experience of back sent drivers, and now we are being given the benefit of the advice of regarded generals. His criticism of the control of our fighting forces is a serious reflection on the Australian high command, and I do not believe it was justified. I believe that we are particularly fortunate in having in control of our forces in the South-West Pacific Area men of the calibre of General MacArthur and General Sir Thomas Blarney. I know that General Sir Thomas Blarney is a gallant officer and an able leader. It should be a matter for gratification that the relations between the Government and the high command have been so cordial. This makes for the success of military operations Senator Foll referred to our production, but he was content to point to only the little difficulties that are occurring in practically every section o industry. The entry of Japan into the war rendered our position most serious, and it cannot be denied that generally we were stampeded. Therefore, it was only natural that in many cases unsuitable men were appointed to responsible positions in our war effort. I do not propose to conduct any post-mortems. As I have said on previous occasions, our present manpower difficulties are due largely to the failure of the Predecessors of the Curtin Government to deal thoroughly and urgently with that problem. Sixteen months ago, the Curtin Government placed a blanket exemption from military service over all the employees in primary industry; but most of the trouble we are now experiencing arose from causes which were left unattended prior to that date. At that time, primary industries had been practically depleted of man-power, due to the attractiveness of jobs in munitions factories and in other secondary industries. Further, life on the land is often so arduous that many men are only too glad to abandon it at the first opportunity, and after they do so it is very difficult to get them to return to the land. Senator Foll referred to the shortage of sugar cane-cutters -in the far north. I agree with him that young men from the southern States, unaccustomed to the climatic conditions of north Queensland, could not be expected at short notice to undertake such arduous work as cutting cane. To some degree, however, the shortage of cane-cutter was due to the fact that the calling is only seasonal, and, naturally, many of those who hitherto engaged in it preferred permanent employment offering elsewhere. Much of the hardship experienced by the sugar canefarmers, owing to the shortage of cutters could have been avoided if men with practical knowledge and experience in the industry had been consulted on the matter. On previous occasions in this chamber, I have urged the Government to consult with organized industry in appointing men to positions of control. Sufficient men of capacity would have been patriotic enough to help the Government in that direction. 201 JZD 0 0 FOLL, Hattil Spencer Senator FOLL One difficulty is that very often the Government does not consult with practical men in dealing with the problems of certain industries. 201 JQY 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE I agree that certain authorities set up in the past have very often displayed peculiar ideas as to their duties. When concrete proposals are brought down by the Government, we shall have a full opportunity to deal with problems of this kind. The Governor-General's Speech indicates that the Government fully realizes its responsibilities, and intends to make every endeavour to solve the various problems confronting ns. Senator Leckie and Senator Foll are greatly concerned regarding the possible introduction of socialism after the war. Their fears rather amuse me. The socialist tiger was not raised in this country by the late Sir George Reid, who, incidentally, slightly resembled Senator Foll in appearance. That honorable gentleman trotted out this old bogy when I was a boy. Senator Leckie and Senator Foll are unable to see the forest for the trees. They complain that all the efforts of this Government, and some of the efforts of its predecessors, are socialistic in character. In order to meet our problems wisely and effectively, we must approach them from the point of view of the interests of the community as a whole. Hitherto, we have not done so. It is useless for honorable senators to try to turn back the tide. The Governor-General's Speech refers to the Government's proposals with regard to housing, education and health and medical services. All those things, of course, are bound up with the problem of increasing our population. Although I do not intend to deal with that subject at length, I repeat that it is most important. However, the opposition parties in this Parliament, particularly the Australian Country party have for many years past discouraged the establishment of secondary industries in this com1try. Obviously, it is useless to increase our population if we are unable to find employment for all our people. To-day, however, I am pleased to note a tendency in all political parties to cease living in the past, and to abandon old ideas regarding the development of secondary industries in this country. Until quite recently, the idea was fostered by certain sections that we could not build a motor car in Australia. The people as a whole are beginning to realize that real happiness is centred in family life; and I am certain that if the Government deals wisely and effectively with such problems as the provision of housing, health and medical services, and other social problems, that of increasing our population will practically solve itself. That problem is of tremendous importance, and the Government can best approach it by sweeping aside the obstacles which hinder the full development of this country. The Labour party believes that, to a large degree, these problems are governed by the economic conditions of the people. The transfer of additional powers from the States to the Commonwealth must he approached wisely. It is useless to talk glibly of this matter as Senator Foll has done. It is not a question of abolishing State Parliaments. We must alter the Constitution in such a way as will enable the National Parliament to achieve the best results in the government of the nation as a whole. Provided we approach the problem in that way, the people of Australia will readily agree to give to the Commonwealth Parliament those powers which it needs but does not now possess, in order to enable it to legislate effectively with regard to such matters as health and finance. 202 JZD 0 0 FOLL, Hattil Spencer Senator FOLL Is the honorable senator prepared to give the people an opportunity to vote on the question whether State Parliaments should be abolished? 202 JQY 0 0 COURTICE, Benjamin Senator COURTICE It is not wise to approach the problem in that way. If Senator Foll were a surgeon, would he cut off a man's bead in order to remove a pimple on his face? The problem of givi11g increased powers to the Commonweal they must be considered thoroughly by the most intellectual in the community, and, of course, all the best intellects are not in any one party. The people desire that this matter be approached in a common sense way, because they realize that additional powers must be given to the National Parliament in or der to enable it to deal effectively with problems such as health and finance, which will be of the greatest importance after the war. Unless the Commonwealth be clothed with such powers, I am afraid that we shall find ourselves in serious difficulty after the war. I also advise the Government to exercise the greatest caution in dealing with price control, particularly so far as primary products are concerned. In dealing with this subject, full use should be made of the knowledge and experience of practical men in primary industries. We know, of course, that ceiling prices for certain commodities have been fixed without due consideration being given to certain difficulties confronting the industries concerned. This year, the early crops in Queensland have been destroyed by frost, and primary producers generally are confronted with a tremendous task in combating pest and plant diseases. It gives me great pleasure to note that we are assembled today in the knowledge that we are definitely on the road to victory. Even at this juncture raids are being made on this country, and the war is not yet over. We should all realize, therefore, that the policy of this Government must primarily be directed towards achieving victory as soon as possible; but, after victory, the Government must turn its attention to the application of a strong policy of economic production and the introduction of social services of a character that will place us once again amongst the leading nations of the world in reform and progress generally. 203 11.46 K0C New South Wales 0 0 ARMSTRONG, John Ignatius Senator Armstrong I had the great honour to visit Great Britain as a delegate of the British Empire Parliamentary Association at the invitation of the British Branch of that association. In Sydney, just before I left, I was given a farewell dinner at which I said that peace in this world would rest on an understanding between the English-speaking peoples of the world. Having travelled through America and across Canada, and having spent six weeks in Great Britain, I returned to Australia strengthened in my feeling that the maintenance of peace in the world will lie fundamentally in the British speaking peoples coming to know each other better and having more confidence in each other. Normally one is more critical of the other fellow than of oneself, but, when I arrived in the United States of America, my first impression was the great ignorance the people there had of Australia. That impression was deepened in Canada. The Canadians know little or nothing about this country. Pondering the matter, I came to the conclusion that we know as little about them. Blame for our mutual ignorance of each other must be shared by all. How few men and women, even educated men and women of Australia could say how many provinces there are in the Dominion of Canada! Yet I was inclined to be critical when I found that many Canadians did not know how many States there are in Australia. Then, in Great Britain, I found the same ignorance of our people and our problems. The lack of understanding among the English-speaking peoples of the world was brought home to me particularly when I talked with people in the United States of America. They have no understanding of the British Commonwealth of Nations. Even intelligent people who can talk with ease and knowledge about the problems which confront their own country are absolutely ignorant of the growth and status of the British Empire. There is a feeling in the United States of America that it is an empire in the very worst sense of the word. The people imagine that Australia maintains its place in the Empire because it pays so much bondage in actual money to Great Britain. When I pointed out that that was wrong, their reaction all the time was, "Well, what is Great Britain getting out of it?". It is a position which should be given great publicity, otherwise, the confidence and understanding that must develop between the English-speaking peoples will not develop. In Great Britain we were the guests at a dinner given in our honour by the British Broadcasting Corporation. I think I shall be forgiven if I say here what I told our hosts at that dinner. I said that they were not doing the job that lay within their power. They had a magnificent means at their disposal to put Great Britain's effort in this war in its right perspective, but that means was not being properly employed. We were not there, I said, to praise each other, and I wanted them to know that I felt that they were not doing all they could do. Since the early days of the war the feeling in the minds of many people in Australia had been, as the result of bad publicity, that Great Britain was fighting the war to the last Australian and the last New Zealander as the Germans had said so many hundreds of times Great Britain had fought the last war to the last Frenchman. I told them that it was not until our first wounded returned to Australia from the Middle East that Australia had come to appreciate the great part that the British "Tommy" was playing. We had been told by the boys who had fought at Tobruk that they would not have been able to hold out but for the British artillery. That had been the first time that we had heard due credit given to the British, troops and we had heard it, not from the source from which we should have expected to hear it, the British Broadcasting Corporation and other British propaganda agencies, but from our own Australian soldiers. I also took the British Broadcasting Corporation to task for not having properly countered the German propaganda when the Maginot Line was being held. I pointed out that that propaganda had been directed towards breaking, the confidence of the French and British soldiers facing the Germans and that no countering effort bad been made. I mention these things because I consider that, if Great Britain is to exercise its full power and influence with the United States of America in the years after the war, the rank and file of the American people must have a better idea of what Britain has done in the war. Honorable senators may have read that in a Gallup poll, taken in the United States of America on the question of which of the United Nations had done the greatest work in this war, a remarkably small percentage of the voters gave the British people credit for having done so. A similar poll taken in Great Britain on the same question resulted in very few British people conceding that the United States of America was making the greatest single effort. The reason is that neither side knows what the other is doing. It was because of ignorance in such matters that I felt it incumbent upon me to criticize the directors of the British Broadcasting Corporation. In my address, I cited the example of the Lancaster bomber. I said, "Here is a plane which goes over Germany almost every night taking a bomb load which it was never thought possible for a bomber to carry, but you have not given due credit to the Lancaster for the job it is doing. On the other hand, every time Flying Fortresses go over Germany the fact is blazoned abroad in the newspapers and by the British Broadcasting Corporation. At the same time, you break down the job your own people are doing.". Their reply was that this was because of their conservative approach; they considered that it was the right approach. To me it was not the right approach. I thought that, if the English-speaking peoples were to work whole Senator Armstrong heartedly together, and if the bonds of friendship and confidence that had been forged between the allied troops on every battleground on which they had fought side by side were to be shared by the rank and file, the people of each nation had to have a better knowledge of each other. It was necessary for the people of the United States of America to be better informed as to the set-up of the British Commonwealth of Nations and of the work that was being done by the British. I am not saying that the British people are not popular in the United States of America to-day; on the contrary their popularity has increased tremendously, not because of an exchange of ambassadors, although it has been helped by the frequent visits to the United States of America by Mr. Churchill, but fundamentally because of the way in which the men and women of Great Britain stood up to the "blitz". The American people have an admiration which they are anxious to express for the heroism and determination displayed in those dark days, not by the fighting forces of Great Britain, but by the men and women who could not hit back. That has strengthened the bond between the two nations, but it could be strengthened more by educating the people of each nation in the affairs of the other through proper publicity. The two leaders, Mr. Churchill and Mr. Roosevelt, are closer together than any allied leaders have ever been in any war. I know of no conferences to parallel those which have regularly occurred between Mr. Churchill and Mr. Roosevelt since the outbreak of war. I think that the confidence that those two men have in each other must be allowed to permeate through every strata and every section of society in both nations so that after the war the bonds of friendship shall be not only maintained but also cemented. Australia looks to the United States of America for a certain volume of its population; that has been the subject of debate recently in both Houses of this Parliament. Many of the American forces in this country will decide to stay here when the war ends and many others will return here after they have gone home. Australia stands to-day in the estimation of the other countries of the world on a higher pinnacle than ever. Everywhere we went, regardless of the community, the people could not do enough for us. We found in Canada that our boys in the Empire Air Training Scheme have made a wonderful impression among the Canadians. Those lads have done a remarkable job for this country. It is not just the general impression that they leave by behaving themselves as gentlemen at all times, but, in their examinations, they top every class in which they sit. A man should always be proud of his own, even if it means "knocking" the other fellow a little. At the Winnipeg flying school we were talking with the commanding officer who gave us the figures for " groundings" in Canada, and the Australians had by far the smallest percentage, which at this stage I do not think I should give. I asked one of our boys to explain why they had such wonderful results in Canada. He replied, " The only reason I can give is that we are all so interested in our work", and added, "I can give you an example of the class that I represent. I came to this school from a class of 22 Empire air trainees, comprising boys from New Zealand, Australia, Canada and Great Britain. The first five places in that class, and eight out of the first ten places, were occupied by Australians, and that is reasonably, true of every class in Canada to-day'. It made me very proud to hear that. I thought it wonderful. We all know that the class of lad entering the air service is excellent and cannot be improved upon, but the standard and quality of these lads has created a feeling of admiration · which has spread throughout Canada. Every home in that country is open to them and when they get leave it is only a short journey to the United States of America. They told me that the hospitality, kindness and consideration shown to them is amazing. Every door in America is open to them. This makes me more and more convinced that when the opportunity presents itself to us we should do as we can to look after the allied servicemen who come among us, because their people go out of their way to make things as happy as possible for the Australian lads who go to their countries. In Great Britain also the Royal Australian Air Force men are very highly regarded, because they display not only a complete devotion to duty, but at the critical stage they have also the initiative to do what ought to be done. In Great Britain I saw these young men of ours go through their training and up to the stage of actual combat. Despite the fact that they are living on the brink of death, and one might expect many of them to be inclined to relax during their leave periods, I did not see one man in the uniform of the Royal Australian Air Force under the influence of liquor in the slightest degree. I do not say that they did not touch liquor, but they know that everybody recognizes that inside that blue uniform the only one of that colour to be seen in Great Britain are Australian airmen who are conscious all the time that they are carrying the banner of Australia wherever they go. We know that the lads in this country are reasonably well behaved, but when they go over there they become absolute models of propriety. Those of them who have been looking for a bit of fun now and then in this country, pull themselves together when they go to Great Britain, conscious all the time that Australia is being judged by their behaviour. We can indeed be very proud of them. The intermingling of allied servicemen all over the world is helping tis a long way on the road to that very desirable understanding which I should like to see developed, but which so far unfortunately has not been developed sufficiently. It can be and should be developed a great deal more, because the future of the world depends on the creation of a common understanding among all the English-speaking peoples. If the British Commonwealth of Nations and the United States of America are willing to come together and. cooperate, our approach to the other nations of the world will be made much more simple and easy, because when these see that we are together and united, they will find it easier to join in and cooperate with us in planning for the post war years. There is a tendency here to talk of post-war reconstruction as an Australian problem, but it is much more than that. It is a world problem, and we in this country must fit in our plans so that not only will improvements be made and our future stabilized, but also throughout the world conditions will be stabilized and we can all plan together for peace in our time. 206 12.4 K6N Western Australia 0 0 CLOTHIER, Robert Ernest Senator CLOTHIER I have heard in several speeches reference to planning ahead, particularly in regard to housing. That is a subject about which we must be very careful, because I find from conversations with some of the timber mill proprietors, especially in Western Australia, that timber supplies for building purposes are in most instances down to bedrock. We must take steps now to ensure that when the timber is wanted, it is available to provide all the homes that will be required. I advise the Government to make advances to the mill owners in order to ensure an adequate supply of seasoned timber, because there is no doubt that it will be required. In all the States in the last two or three years practically all timber available has been used in constructing works for military purposes. The construction of houses for the people, especially for those who return from active service after the war, is going to be an immense problem, and we must start now to make provision for it. I am a great believer in the trust system which is in operation in South Australia for the purpose of providing workers' homes. The same system could be applied to Western Australia, where the Government recently appointed a committee to prepare a plan outlining what is required. It consisted of the chief town-planner the principal architect, representatives of thetimber mills, the building surveyors and the master builders. It would be impossible to get together a better body to advise any government in regard to workers homes. Western Australia has. also, a Workers' Homes Board, which could be used very effectively in co-operation with such a committee. I have obtained my information from the proprietors of timber mills, whose stocks in Western Australia are down to bedrock, and I am satisfied that a similar position exists all over the Commonwealth. It is all very well to build the temporary houses that are being erected at the present time, but they will last only a few years. My earnest advice to the Government is to advance money to the mill-owners in the various States, so that timber can now be cut, stacked and left to season, to be available later for the houses that will have to be built to meet the demand at the end of the war. This morning I asked Senator Lamp, who is confined to his bed, what the position was in Tasmania, and he told me that it was the same. I therefore urge the Government to do all in its power to see that timber is set aside to season in the yards so that it may be ready to build houses tit for our people to live in. 206 KQH New South Wales 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE tender my congratulation to the mover and seconder of the motion on the able manner in which they made their maiden speeches in this chamber. I wish also to tender to you, Mr. President, my congratulations on the high honour which has been conferred upon you. I have listened to the debate with very mixed feelings, particularly in the case of Senator Leckie, who with sobs in his voice expressed concern over our silence. He said that he was sorry that we had to face up to such a Herculean task. He does not seem to have appreciated that our silence is more or less magnanimity, and not the effect of the strenuous campaign which he said had apparently absorbed all our energies. We can afford to be magnanimous. He little dreams of the agony that we endured when he and his colleagues were running the steamroller over us in the manner that they so unfortunately did during the last two sessions, when we were trying to give our people an instalment of that new order about which everybody has been talking. I felt quite appreciative of his concern, and wished that I could believe that it was sincere. The honorable senator made one or two reinstatements. He said that Senator Tangney in her opening address had expressed a belief in the abolition of preference, and claimed that in so doing she had shown herself a supporter of the Opposition's contentions. Senator Tangney did not express the sentiment which the honorable senator attributed to her. On the contrary, she said that she did not believe thn.t preference should be necessary, and l think that that is a fair expression of the views of those who sit on this side of the chamber. There will be no need for preference when economic security is guaranteed to all, and that is a policy which our party supports. The honorable senator twitted us about our proposal., to introduce social welfare legislation. I venture to say that it was the fact that we had in the printer's hands two social welfare legislative measures beneficial to our class th.at precipitated the crisis which resulted in the debacle that the Opposition ultimately suffered on the 21st August last. I believe that they knew that had they dared to throw out the social welfare legislation of this party they would have suffered political oblivion when they eventually faced their master. They thought that my a motion of want of confidence they might gather up a few crumbs, and that if they threw mud at this party some of it might stick. They believed that in that way they would have a better chance in facing the people than they would after having thrown out such splendid measures as we proposed measures which were not merely contemplated, but actually in the printer's hands, and, happily, are so soon to be given legislative sanction in this chamber. On the whole, I should say that Senator Leckie's speech was an apology. We accept the apology. My only regret is that he is not in the chamber at present, because I feel that I could do much better if I could talk to him instead of about him. We realize that he and his party arc utterly opposed to any progressive social welfare legislation. In their opposition they are, of course, only doing the bidding of their employers. I notice the Leader of the Opposition Senator McLeay) smiling. He knows that what I am saying is positively true. In his speech he did not say anything which merited my criticism, except that, in a way, he indicated an attitude of: "We will go quietly now, we had our dues in the last two years or so, we made ourselves as great a nuisance, as we possibly could, the general public has given us a rebuke in no uncertain way, and told us that we did not understand public feeling, so in the circumstances we shall simply have to go quietly". Senator James McLachlan was very concerned about our population. He said that it must increase and that we must populate or perish. We all know that, but probably the last idea that would occur to the honorable senator's mind is that the way to increase the population of this country is to grant economic security to our own people, and make the conditions obtaining here attractive to the best elements from overseas. That is about the last method that would occur to the honorable senator as a means of increasing the population of the Commonwealth. 207 KOJ 1 0 HAYS, Herbert Ephraim Digby Senator HERBERT HAYS He did not suggest anything to the contrary. 206 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE No, but it was not constructive. His was a sin of omission rather than of commission. Senator Foll can visualize the future only as an international competitive system. In his opinion, the old order must remain. He cannot understand the meaning of such terms as "economic security", and he is Socialism were bogies as far back as 1909, terribly afraid of "isms", such as honorable senators opposite have indulged in a lot of loose talk about communism and socialism. 207 L8E 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Charles Senator CAMERON Bogies 207 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE Yes. I have never known the Opposition parties to fight an election without relying on bogies to support their policy. Communism and socialism were bogies as far hack as 1909, and the anti-Labour forces suffered a debacle at the elections in the following year. For want of something better as a policy on which to fight an election, the Opposition metaphorically resurrects bogies, dusts them and trots them out for the purpose of attracting votes, only to see them meet the fate that they so richly merit. 207 KTX 1 0 McLACHLAN, James Senator JAMES McLACHLAN Those two bogies fought together well. 207 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE And they went down together. I am convinced that honorable senators opposite, who so frequently use these bogies, do not understand the fundamental principles of communism and socialism. If they did, they would not indulge in such loose talk about them. Shortly after I became a member of the Senate, I promised to give to honorable senators opposite a few lessons in bread-and-butter economics. I hope that it is not yet too late for me to do so. 208 KUA 1 0 McLEAY, George Senator McLEAY The subject is so dry that I hope the honorable senator will ration it. 208 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE I am only too willing to give a few lessons in bread-and-butter economics to those honorable senators who are so badly in need of them. 208 KTX 1 0 McLACHLAN, James Senator JAMES McLACHLAN Ask the Minister for Trade and Customs to increase the butter ration. 208 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE I am quite unmoved by representations for increasing the present butter ration. In our household, we have plenty of butter. 208 KBH 0 0 WILSON, Keith Cameron Senator WILSON Why was it necessary to ration butter? 208 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE In order that available supplies may be distributed equitably among all sections of the community. If butter were not rationed, the wealthy classes, who are represented so ably by honorable senators opposite, would corner all the butter and other good things of life, and deny them to the large majority of Australians whose purses are shallower than their own. Rationing is democratic. Perhaps, in using the word "democratic ", I am speaking over the heads of my political opponents. They do not appear to under stand its significance. There is far too much " mock" in their democracy. I listened with a feeling of nausea to the speech made by our gallant soldier friend, Senator Wilson. Several of his utterances were wild, and most of his remarks were very bitter. He complained that things were being done in the Army that were not calculated to produce a maximum war effort. At the risk of being personal I do not like to strike that note I remind the gallant major that his rapid promotion supports his contention. He deplored the fact that so many of our troops were inactive, and declared that inactivity constituted a grave danger to their morale. Again, I indulge in a little reflection. The honorable senator bitterly condemned the coalminers, studiously disregarding the fact that their attitude to the community, if a little warped, was excusable because of the extraordinarily bad conditions under which they labour. Listening to his criticisms, I wondered whether he thought that the inactive troops should have been employed in disciplining the coal miners. Frankly, his expressions led me to the conclusion that given the authority, he would have used armed force against the coal miners. Whether they were right or wrong does not enter into this discussion. When he was making that speech, I told him that one good miner was worth an indefinite number of majors. He is now advocating the release from the Army of many persons previously engaged in primary production, and skilled operatives. Every honorable senator realizes that in a colossal organization such as the Army, some anomalies must arise. But the attitude of the honorable senator led me to believe that he favoured denuding the Army in order to provide skilled operatives for industry. Possibly he may have a personal interest in some industries. I did not know enough of his private business to state authoritatively whether that is correct. 208 K2F 1 0 BRAND, Charles Henry Senator BRAND Then why draw the inference? 208 KUA 1 0 McLEAY, George Senator McLEAY It is a dirty personal attack on a soldier, who did his "bit" for Australia, and I resent it. 208 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE Precisely what sort of a job he did for Australia, I do not know. What I do know is that ever since I made his acquaintance he has been pirouetting in uniform around the chamber. When he retires from the Senate a few months hence, he should be publicly presented with a regiment of tin soldiers, provided enough metal is available to manufacture them. That is how I feel towards the honorable senator, and I express my view whether he resents it or not. 208 K2F 1 0 BRAND, Charles Henry Senator BRAND I rise to order. I consider that the remarks made by senator Large are very insulting to a soldier in uniform who has done his "bit" in the Middle East. 208 KUA 1 0 McLEAY, George Senator McLEAY The words are offensive to returned soldiers, particularly those who have taken part in combat. I ask that they be withdrawn. 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Senator Brand has complained that certain words used by Senator Large are offensive. 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE What words are offensive? 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I understand that certain words, which the honorable senator used in relation to returned soldiers and in particular to Senator Wilson, are offensive, and Senator Brand and Senator McLeay have asked that they be withdrawn. I think that Senator Wilson himself should ask for their withdrawal, if they are offensive to him. 209 KBH 0 0 WILSON, Keith Cameron Senator WILSON I ask that the words be withdrawn. 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I ask Senator Large to ·withdraw the word to which objection has been taken. 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE What particular words am I asked to withdraw? 209 KUA 1 0 McLEAY, George Senator McLEAY The reference to the presentation of tin soldiers to Senator Wilson. 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Order! Senator Wilson has asked for the withdrawal of certain words. 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE What words? 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I ask Senator Wilson to repeat the words to which he has objected. 209 KBH 0 0 WILSON, Keith Cameron Senator WILSON I object to the words "presentation of tin soldiers to Senator Wilson". 209 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT Those words are regarded by Senator Wilson as being offensive to him personally, and I ask Senator Large to withdraw them. 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE To preserve the decorum of the chamber, I am prepared to withdraw the words without qualification; but I respectfully suggest that honorable senators opposite should show as much concern for our feelings as they expect us to show for their feelings. I listened with great interest to the Governor-General's Speech and to the speeches of Senator Tangney and Senator Nash. I for one, regretted the absence of a definite undertaking that the Government proposes to extend the present measure of socialization during the war. Whenever we have engaged in war, the inevitable result has been the breakdown of the capitalist system, and the Government, in order to obtain a total war effort, has resorted to State or national control of industry. If that is not socialism, I have yet to learn the true meaning of the word. Why so much objection should be raised, and attempts made to create a bogy out of a splendid ideal, I do not know. Indeed, the socialization of industry is a good thing. I can quite understand that it would not appeal to men like Senator Leckie, but the reverse of socialism is anarchy, and I stand for socialism. What has been proved so thoroughly in war to be a most effective system for producing a total war effort, should commend itself to any intelligent body of men. Socialism does not frighten me. No one can accurately "blue-print" beforehand the form that society will take under a system of socialism. We stand for the ideal. We cannot blue-print it. We know that the composite mind will adjust itself to the changing circumstances, and a state of society will emerge which will be a far more democratic and equitable way of life than previous systems. Dr. Temple, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has told in plain language that the profit motive must be destroyed. Similar views have been expressed by enlightened authorities all over the world. 209 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT Dr. Temple preaches the profit motive. 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE That may be so, but unfortunately he is in a somewhat similar position to the honorable senator who, for economic reasons, is forced to do things which he knows to be improper. 209 K7M 1 0 COLLETT, Herbert Brayley Senator COLLETT Has the honorable senator not heard of the hereafter? 209 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE Dr. Temple has stated definitely that the profit motive must go, that we must produce for use and not for profit. That is the basic principle of the socialist state. It is man's greed and acquisitiveness that has been responsible not only for local domestic and national squabbles, but also, in the last analysis, for wars. When we come to understand one another better and are prepared to live according to the ideals of Robert Burns- “That man to man the warld o'er, shall brothers be for a' that "- we shall have reached an ideal state of society. We are hoping earnestly that such a state of society will emerge from this conflict. 210 KOJ 1 0 HAYS, Herbert Ephraim Digby Senator HERBERT HAYS Many years ago a group of Australians tried to establish a socialist state in South America. 210 KQH 0 0 LARGE, William James Senator LARGE Yes, but it is impossible to practise socialism in a nonsocialist community. Apparently the honorable senator does not realize that ''one swallow does not make a summer", and an inane interjection such as that which he has just made does not merit even the time which I have spent replying to it. Socialism itself presupposes that it will be adopted by the whole of the community, and that all sections of the community will live together in a state of harmony, everybody producing for use and not for profit. I have been a convinced socialist for many years, and in my opinion, only by implementing the socialist ideal will the world ever emerge successfully from the shocking conditions that we are now enduring. Only then shall we be superior to our present way of life in which, even with our twentieth century intelligence, we have had to engage in two wars within a quarter, of a century in order to compose our differences. That in itself is striking condemnation of the system which is so ably reported by members of the Opposition. In conclusion I say to honorable senators that I shall welcome the day When a speech by His Excellency the Governor-General at the opening of this Parliament will make provision for further implementation of the socialist ideal. Question resolved in the affirmative. 210 Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to - That the Address in-Reply be presented to His Excellency the Governor-General. by the President and such senators as may desire to accompany him. 210 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT I shall ascertain when his Excellency will be pleased to receive the Address-in-Reply, and when a time is fixed, I shall notify the Senate. 210 adjournment Motion (by Senator KEANE) agreed to- That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn to Wednesday, the 13th October, at 3. p.m. 210 adjournment 210 Motion (by Senator KEANE) proposed - That the Senate do now adjourn. 210 12.35 KOJ Tasmania 1 0 HAYS, Herbert Ephraim Digby Senator HERBERT HAYS There is a matter to which I should like to direct the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation. Tasmanian senators have received from the Services Parents and Wives Association of Tasmania letters concerning the repatriation hospital situated at Campbelltown, Tasmania. For some time there has been a great deal of adverse comment about the location of that institution, and now I understand that considerable sums of money are to be spent in making additions to it. The location of that hospital is entirely unsuitable. Obviously the desire of parents and friends of inmates of that institution to see their loved ones as often as possible, but, unfortunately, as the hospital is situated in such an isolated part of the State frequent visits are not possible. Apart from the inconvenience of travelling, considerable expense is involved. The hospital is miles from the larger centres of population, and the return trip to Campbelltown may cost as much as 28s. on weekdays and £1 on Sundays. In addition, visitors who have to make a long journey are unable to spend as much time as they would like with their relatives in the institution. I emphasize that I have no complaint to make concerning the control of the institution. It is quite well managed; but before spending more money on additions, I ask the Government to reconsider the matter with a view to moving the institution to Launceston, Hobart or some central position on the north-west coast of Tasmania. I cannot understand why the present institution was ever built in such a remote area. Apart from the inconvenience and expense imposed upon relatives of inmates who wish to visit the hospital, there are many people in the community who desire to do hospital work and to take gifts of reading matter and other comforts which mean so much to patients in these institutions. Since it was originally built, it has been added to on several occasions, and when the war is over the present buildings will be quite useless, whereas if they were situated in some more central district they could be put to some service when no longer required for their present purpose. I urge the Government to investigate this matter. I shall place in the hands of the Minister representing the Minister for Repatriation the letter I have received, and I trust that I shall have his assurance that no action will be taken before an inquiry is made. Question resolved in the affirmative. 211 papers The following papers were presented: - Commonwealth Grants Commission Act-Tenth Report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission, dated 25th January, 1943, on the applications made by the States of South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania, for financial assistance in 1943-44 from the Commonwealth under Section 90 of the Constitution. Land Tax Assessment Act-List of applications for relief dealt with during the year 1942-43. Senate adjourned at 12:30 p.m.