1967-05-09 26 1 1 SENATE 1211 0 1967-05-09 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 1211 Questions 1211 1211 KOU VICTORIA 0 0 HENDRICKSON, Albion Senator HENDRICKSON - Is the Leader of the Government in the Senate aware that today is 9th May? Is he also aware that this is a day of considerable significance to the Australian Parliament? Does he recall that sixty-six years ago today the First Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia was opened' in Melbourne by the Queen's personal representative? Does he further recall that forty years ago today the Commonwealth Parliament assembled in Canberra for the first time? As such a day passes almost unnoticed by the majority of people in Australia, will the Minister ask his colleagues in the Ministry to consider the desirability of commemorating the events to which I have referred, particularly among the school children in the various States and more especially in Canberra? 1211 KOW TASMANIA LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The honourable senator has been studying history a little more closely than I have. I was aware that forty years ago today the Commonwealth Parliament assembled in Canberra for the first time, because the Prime Minister referred to that event in King's Hall today during the presentation of two magnificent chairs by the Returned Services League to the Australian Parliament. He mentioned that this was the fiftieth anniversary of the League and also the fortieth anniversary of the first sitting of the Parliament in Canberra. So 1 was aware of that part of our history. In regard to the rest of the honourable senators question, it' he puts it on the notice paper I will see what information I can obtain for him from the Prime Minister. 1211 K2I WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator BRANSON - My question, which is directed to you, Mr President, is supplementary to the one that Senator Hendrickson has just asked. Do you intend to take any action by way of the publication that is available at the front door to draw the attention of the very large number of people who visit Parliament House to the fact that today is the fortieth anniversary 5664/67-,?- PO] - * of the first sitting of the Commonwealth Parliament in Canberra? 1211 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I have had discussions with Mr Speaker about the reprinting of the booklet to which Senator Branson referred, lt has tremendous sales and plays a very important part in the school life and studies of children. 1 believe that the booklet should be reprinted. I agree that this would be a suitable time to pay respect to the fortieth anniversary of the opening of the Commonwealth Parliament in Canberra. 1211 Questions 1211 1211 JXR WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - 1 ask the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport a question. Can he give the Government's reasons for briefing a firm of private engineers, namely, Maunsell and Partners, to prepare a report on the whole of the work remaining to be done on the standard gauge railway in Western Australia? 1211 JZQ NEW SOUTH WALES LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - 1 sought this information, and I am able to say that since the inception of the railway agreement with Western Australia in 1961 Maunsell and Partners had been employed by the Western Australian Government Railways as consulting engineers. The agreement was based on developmental as well as standardisation work, but did not set out all details of the work to be carried out under these two headings. By .1965 it became apparent that the original estimate of SS2,400,000 would be considerably exceeded. It was necessary to have a comprehensive and detailed master plan of the remainder of the works and a reliable estimate of the total cost to be met on the project. At the request of the Commonwealth and with the approval of the State Government, Maunsell and Partners carried out this task. The State and Commonwealth Governments are examining the report at the present time. 1211 Questions 1211 1211 KSS SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 MATTNER, Edward Senator MATTNER - I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate a question without notice. If the referendum to be held on 27th May to break the nexus between the two Houses of the Parliament is carried, does the Government propose an initial increase of thirteen members in the size of the House of Representatives? Further, what would be the approximate cost to the people each year of supporting thirteen additional members of the House of Representatives, including the cost of such factors as salary, parliamentary allowances, transport, secretarial assistance, office accommodation, stationery and telephone expenses? 1212 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - 1 am sure the honourable senator would not expect me to have at hand all the details that he has asked for. I suggest that if he puts his question on notice I shall do my best to obtain for him all the costs and details to which he has referred. 1212 Questions 1212 1212 KB9 WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I ask the Minister representing the Treasurer whether it is a fact that Mr J. A. Keely, counsel for the Commonwealth in the national wage hearing in Melbourne, has opposed the claim for wage increases on the ground that inflationary pressures would result. Does the Government have any other plans in mind to arrest inflationary trends, or is it intended that the wage earning community should shoulder the entire burden? 1212 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The honourable senator has raised a very interesting question. He has mentioned the economy of this country. Of course, over the sixteen or seventeen years during which the present Government has been in office, the economy has been stable. Indeed, any government could be proud of the development that has taken place throughout the Commonwealth as well as the increase in real wages in comparison with costs. In regard to the details asked for by the honourable senator, I suggest that he place his question on the notice paper. It should really go to the Minister for Labour and National Service, for I believe this matter is more in his field. However, if the honourable senator places his question on the notice paper I shall see what answer I can get for him. 1212 Questions 1212 1212 KSN TASMANIA 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator MARRIOTT - I ask the Minister for Education and Science: What restriction has been forced on the proposed construc tion of new buildings at the University of Tasmania by any reduction in funds to be provided in the new triennium by the Commonwealth Government? Will any aspect of Commonwealth policy in respect of finance for universities inhibit plans already agreed upon for buildings and equipment for the new medical school at the University of Tasmania? If the answer to my second question is yes, is there any way in which the original plans can be adhered to in view of the fact that any curtailment of original buildings would have long term disadvantages to the proper and required development of this new medical school? 1212 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The amount recommended by the Australian Universities Commission for the University of Tasmania over the triennium was, I think, $2,106,000. The amount actually granted was $ 1,900,000-odd, which was the upper limit suggested by the State Government for those buildings. From those figures the honourable senator may see the reduction in the whole programme. Two recommendations were made by the Commission in respect of buildings for medical purposes. One was for the completion of the medical sciences building. The recommendation was that $70,000 should be allocated in respect of that building and S70,000 is being allocated in respect of that building; there has been no reduction. The other recommendation was for an animal house for the medical sciences building. The recommendation was that $58,000 be provided and in fact $50,000 has been provided. 1 point out, too, to the honourable senator that recommendations for the provision of amounts totalling $1,560,000 for teaching hospitals in respect of that university were made and the university is getting $1,560,000. So I do not see how it can be said that there is any curtailment other than in respect of $8,000 in relation to the animal house. 1212 Questions 1212 1212 K6R VICTORIA 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs. Has the Australian Government agreed to the twenty-four hours truce in Vietnam proposed by the Government of South Vietnam for 22nd May, the anniversary of the birth of Buddha? Has the Government been consulted about the proposal from the Government of North Vietnam that the duration of this truce be extended for forty-eight hours? If so, does it support the proposal? Finally, as we are one of the few nations with combat forces in Vietnam and in view of the ever mounting toll of casualties, military and civilian, will the Government assure the Senate that it will place Australia alongside the British Foreign Secretary, Mr Brown, and many other world leaders who hope that this truce will offer an opportunity for peace moves to end the war? 1213 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am not in a position to tell the honourable senator whether the Department of External Affairs has been approached by the Government of South Vietnam on the matter of a twenty-four hours truce. If he wishes me to do so. 1 shall seek to get the information from that Department for him. In relation to the other part of his question, the Australian Government has made it perfectly clear that it will back and support any moves for a peace in Vietnam, provided that peace is one which protects the rights of the individual in South Vietnam and is a peace which will be just and enduring. That is a requirement for a continuing peace. 1213 Questions 1213 1213 KRG TASMANIA 0 0 LILLICO, Alexander Senator LILLICO - Is the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry aware that a deadlock has been reached in negotiations between the Tasmanian Pea Growers Association and the processors regarding the price to be paid for next year's crop? It is claimed that because processors' costs have increased the pea growers should take less and make up the leeway. Should this deadlock continue and not reach a solution - fears have been expressed in this direction - what are the implications regarding the New ZealandAustralia Free Trade Agreement? Will the Minister closely watch the position? 1213 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I am aware of the position that the honourable senator mentions. I have watched it very closely, naturally enough. I think that in any dispute such as this we should start with the understanding - I am sure that both sides to the dispute have this understanding - that neither the processing industry nor the grower can do without the other. This is basic common sense. If the processing industry is to continue, it must have men who can grow the product. If the men are to grow the product, they must have a factory where it can be processed. Together, they must find an equitable price for both sides. This is a matter of dispute and negotiations are necessary in regard to it. I should like to refer the matter of the New Zealand-Australia Free Trade Agreement to the Minister for Trade and Industry because I. would not like to answer it off the cuff. Therefore I suggest to the honourable senator that he put that aspect of his question on the notice paper. At this stage I shall not add anything, because I believe that while the parties are negotiating nothing should be done to inflame the position in any way. 1213 Questions 1213 1213 K8N SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I direct my question to the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior. Is it a fact that many Commonwealth cars used for transporting repatriation patients, leading public servants, Cabinet Ministers, rehabilitation cases and senior N.ivy, Army and Air Force personnel are not fitted with safety belts? Are the drivers and passengers of those vehicles exposed to unnecessary danger, and is the Commonwealth itself taking grave risks in terms of liability for compensation by failing to equip the vehicles with safety belts as recommended by all competent scientific authorities who have given close study to this problem? Will the Minister also say whether it is Government policy to require the use of safety belts, at least by drivers, in those vehicles which are properly equipped? 1213 KTL NEW SOUTH WALES CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - 1 am not aware of all the facts stated by the honourable senator. 1 do know that some Commonwealth cars are fitted with safety belts but 1 do not know whether the drivers are specifically instructed to see that they are worn at all times. I will direct the remainder of the question to the Minister for the Interior. 1213 Questions 1213 1213 JTT SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - 1 address a question to the Minister for Supply relating to the future of the Woomera rocket range. Has the Minister any information on a report in the London 'Daily Telegraph' that Australian Federal Ministers were deeply concerned about the future of the Woomera rocket range? Can the Minister say whether the newspaper is correct in saying that it is doubtful whether the present arrangement under which Great Britain pays half the cost will continue? 1214 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - At the moment the Government and the Department of Supply are consulting with the British authorities responsible under the arrangement for the joint financing of the Woomera rocket range and the Weapons Research Establishment at Salisbury. The negotiations are being held with a view to arriving at the terms of a further agreement. There is no further information that I can give on the matter at the moment. It is a matter for discussion between the two Departments concerned and representatives of the British Government. 1214 Questions 1214 1214 K6F SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I address a question to you, Mr President, following upon a question asked by Senator Branson and the reply given to him. I am informed by the Clerk of Papers that the valuable publication 'Introduction to the Federal Parliament' which was first issued in 1956 and which contains statistics relating to the parties in the Parliament, is now out of print. I ask whether you will consider the reprinting of this booklet in an up-to-date form. 1214 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - The booklet to which the honourable senator refers was first published in 1959. I appreciate its value. I think that the time is now ripe for publishing a further up-to-date edition containing all the information that the honourable senator desires. An interesting point about the booklet is that only about 3,000 copies were printed and these have been in such great demand that it is likely that, before very long, no copies will be available. It is much sought after by libraries overseas, and the publication of the booklet with up-to-date information is desirable. 1214 Questions 1214 1214 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I ask the Minister representing the Treasurer whether it is a fact that in the first three months of this year new and increased lend ing commitments by the trading banks were higher than in any previous period and exceeded the level in the corresponding months of 1966 by no less than 50%. Could the Minister inform the Senate whether there has been a corresponding increase in the rural sector of bank lending? 1214 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I have the latest figures available for new and increased lending commitments to all classes of borrowers. They are those for the six months ended January 1967. The total new lending commitments to rural businesses was $105m for the six months ended January 1966. For the six months ended January 1967, the total was $144m. I point out that between these two periods total bank lending increased substantially, and the proportion of rural lending was more than maintained. In fact, it increased from 19.5% to 20.1%. Later figures of this kind are not available, but I am sure there has been a considerable increase in the level of new trading bank lending in the rural sector in the three months since January 1967. 1214 Questions 1214 1214 JUH TASMANIA 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I address a question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. In view of the fact that the electors of Tasmania are fast gaining the impression, through the activities of certain Government senators, that the Government does not support a Yes vote in the forthcoming referendum in that State, will the Minister indicate the steps which the Government proposes to take to correct this impression? 1214 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The honourable senator is aware, of course, that the pamphlet setting out both cases in this referendum has just been issued and the campaign relating to the referendum is only starting. I can assure the honourable senator that in Tasmania and everywhere else those persons who agree with and support the Yes case in the referendum will be fighting vigorously in the campaign. 1214 Questions 1214 1214 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - In the light of my remarks on the motion for the adjournment of the Senate on Thursday night last in relation to the military takeover in Greece, can the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs make any statement on the specific issues that I raised? 1215 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Mr President, I am not sure of the specific issues to which the honourable senator is referring. He raised the question of Australia entering into diplomatic relations with the Greek Government. I have stated before in this place, and the Minister for External Affairs has stated before in the other House, that a country is recognised diplomatically by a government accrediting its representative to the Head of State of that country. 1215 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - But not China. 1215 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Australia recognises the China that the United Nations recognises. Australia accredits its representative to the Head of State of China. The honourable senator makes my point for me. We accredit our representative to the Head of State of the country concerned. Then, if a government had any reason for refusing or not wishing to continue diplomatic relations with a country - for instance, if that government disapproved of the government of that other country - then that government would withdraw its representative or the accreditation to the Head of State. [ am not sure that the honourable senator believes that we should withdraw our representative because we disapprove of the Government in Greece. If that is what he is suggesting, then I do not believe this Government would do that. 1215 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Does the Government disapprove of the Greek Government? 1215 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I do not think that any need exists for recognition to imply approval; nor does recognition imply that a government recognises a government as a democratic government in the sense that we understand the term. Australia has just entered into diplomatic relations with the Government of Yugoslavia. I am glad that we did. But nobody could describe the Government of Yugoslavia as a democratic government in the terms that we understand it. We have continued our recognition of the Government in Ghana where, quite recently, a military takeover has occurred. We apply the test as to whether or not the government is in control of the country and is governing the country. Unless there are reasons why we should not recognise a government, then there are reasons why we should recognise a government. This does not imply, as I said, approval or that it is a democratic government. There were one or two other specific matters that the honourable senator raised concerning Greek individuals. 1215 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - Dual nationality. 1215 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Yes. The dual nationality claims of the Greek Government are not the claims of this Greek Government only. All Greek governments have always claimed that people born in Greece and of Greek citizenship cannot divest themselves of that citizenship no matter whether they go to any other country or whether they take any other citizenship, be it American, Australian or any other. If these people return to Greece they are subject to the laws in Greece as Greek nationals. That has been the continuing claim of the Greek Government. If there were some particular individual cases concerning Greeks with Australian citizenship who were adversely affected by that law, and if those cases were brought to the attention of the Government, the Government might inquire what was happening in those cases. But it is still the Greek claim and always has been that Greek citizenship is retained. 1215 Questions 1215 1215 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I desire to ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate or the appropriate Minister a question. I preface my question by referring to the recent news item from Washington in which the United States Central Intelligence Agency acknowledged that it had been financing secretly student and other organisations over the past fifteen years. I now ask the appropriate Minister whether the Government has any knowledge of CIA moneys flowing to Australian organisations. 1215 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - To my knowledge this has not happened. However, I believe that the honourable senator would want much greater authority than mine. If he puts his question on the notice paper I shall see that he gets an answer. 1215 Questions 1215 1215 JXX SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 DRURY, Arnold Senator DRURY - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Attorney-General or to the Leader of the Government, whichever of the two is appropriate. Is it a fact that a branch of the Ku Klux Klan has been established in Australia? If so, and if it is in the Minister's power to do so, will he take the necessary steps to see that this organisation does not indulge in religious and racial terror tactics as practised by the Klan in the United States of America? 1216 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I may be wrong, but I believe that the honourable senator's question is based solely on a claim by somebody in the United States that he had established a branch of the Ku Klux Klan in Australia. This was recently reported in the newspapers, but whether the man concerned made this claim I do not know. I am not aware of any establishment of the Klan in Australia. Indeed,I think members of that organisation would look awfully silly moving about the Australian countryside clad in bed sheets.I think it is highly unlikely that a branch of the Klan has been established here. 1216 Questions 1216 1216 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I address my question to the Minister representing the Treasurer. Is it a fact that Mr J. A. Keely, counsel for the Commonwealth in the national wage case currently being heard, has opposed the claim for wage increases on the ground that inflationary pressures will result from an increase? Has the Government in mind any plans to arrest the inflationary trend, or is it intended that the wage earning community as usual shall shoulder the entire burden? 1216 KOW TASMANIA LP 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Obviously there has been some mix-up in the distribution of favours on the other side of the chamber. I have already been asked the same question. I suggest to Senator Devitt that he puthis question on notice. If he does so, I shall see that answers are given to both it and the one that I was asked a few minutes ago. 1216 Questions 1216 1216 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration. By way of preface I refer to question No. 67 on the notice paper. I placed it on the notice paper on 8th March. It concerns the policy of the Department of Immigration. I now ask: In the absence of an answer to that question upon notice, why has priority apparently been given to the supplying of answers to similar questions raised at the Public Accounts Committee hearing this week? 1216 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I shall inquire of the Minister for Immigration concerning this matter. 1216 Questions 1216 1216 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I do not want to raise this matter too frequently, but I ask honourable senators to give a little attention to the need to ask only questions that Ministers may reasonably be expected to answer at question time. This requirement ought to be observed if the best use is to be made of question time. Questions that Ministers may not reasonably be expected to answer immediately should be put on notice. When the proceedings are not being broadcast, no advantage is gained by going through the process of asking orally a question that has to be put on notice. This procedure wastes time and is an untidy way of conducting our business. 1216 Questions 1216 (Question No. 79) 1216 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, upon notice: On what date did Qantas Empire Airways Ltd commence its flights to Rome? Were various newspapers and radio representatives included in the inaugural flight complement; if so, what were their names? 1216 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Civil Aviation has supplied the following answers: Qantas commenced its flights to Rome on 26th October 1948 as a technical stop, and on 10th June 1950 with traffic rights. No record is available of Qantas operating an inaugural flight to Rome. 1216 Questions 1216 (Question No. 92) 1216 KTA NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: What is the machinery whereby new drugs are admitted to the pharmaceutical benefits list? From whom does the initiative come to have these drugs admitted? What criteria are needed before a drug is accepted and what guarantees are required for a drug's value and safety? Is it a fact that responsible members of the medical profession require that a drug shall have been widely tested and reported in responsible English language medical journals before it is released for general use in Australia? Are there any reports in any responsible English language medical journals relating to the drug Gondafon; if so, in which journals? Why was the drug Gondafon admitted to the pharmaceutical benefits list? 1217 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Acting Minister for Health has furnished the Following reply: An expert committee, known as the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee, has been established under section101 of the National Health Act. The Committee's functions include the making of recommendations to the Minister as to the drugs and medicinal preparations which it considers should be made available as pharmaceutical benefits. The National Health Act provides that no drug or medicinal preparation may be listed asa pharmaceutical benefit unless a recommendation to that effect is received from the Committee. From the expert knowledge of its members, the Committee itself initiates considerations of the listing of drugs and medicinal preparations as pharmaceutical benefits. The Committee also receives applications for the listing of drugs and preparations, from specialist bodies such as the Australian Medical Association and the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and from medical practitioners, manufacturers and members of the public. The Committee makes its recommendations on therapeutic grounds, taking into consideration all known properties of a drug, including its toxic effects. All drugs and medicinal preparations available us pharmaceutical benefits are tested by the National Biological Standards Laboratory to ensure that they conform to the required standards of potency and purity. I am not in a position to answer this question. Reports on Gondafon have been published in the following English language journals: British Medical Journal', of 1 8th September 1965. Journal of the Irish Medical Association', of June 1965, and May 1966. South African Medical Journal', of11th December 1965. Diabetes', (American) Vol. 14, No. 2, of February 1965, and Vol. 15, No. 10. of October 1966. British Journal of Clinical Practice', of August 1966. Proceedings of the Endocrine Association of Australia', of August 1966. The Minister for Health accepted a recommendation by the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee that Gondafon be listed as a pharmaceutical benefit. 1217 Questions 1217 (Question No.111) 1217 JYA TASMANIA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - Question No.111 which stands in my name was placed on notice on 12th April and then concerned a future event but it will now be answered, I presume, in the past tense. It is as follows: In view of the retirement, in the very near future, of Sir William Hudson, Commissioner of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority, has the Government given consideration to providing some form of recognition, by way of a testimonial dinner at Parliament House, or some other appropriate gesture of appreciation as a mark of respect and thanks for the outstanding services rendered to the nation, the Parliament and the people of Australia by this distinguished New Zealand administrator, engineer and citizen? 1217 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Prime Minister has provided me with the following answer to the honourable senators question: I appreciate the honourable senator's bringing to notice the retirement of Sir William Hudson from the position of Commissioner of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority and his expression of appreciation for the services which Sir William has rendered. This is a sentiment with which I am in full agreement. However, at the same time,I must add that it is not the practice of the Government, nor I understand of previous Governments, to take any formal action such as the holding of a testimonial dinner on the occasion of the retirement of any officer from either the Commonwealth Public Service or from a Commonwealth statutory authority. 1217 Questions 1217 (Question No. 132) 1217 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon notice: To what extent are the private banks of Australia owned or controlled by corporations or persons other than persons resident in Australia or corporations owned or controlled by Australian residents? Which are the principal corporations or persons, and what is the extent of their ownership or control? 1217 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Treasurer has supplied the following information: 1 and 2. The precise information sought is not available to me. Of the seven major private trading banks conducting business in Australia, five have their head offices in Australia and two- namely, the Australia and New Zealand Bank Ltd and The English, Scottish and Australian Bank Ltd - in London. I understand that a high proportion of the shares of the major trading banks with head offices in Australia would be held in this country, while a substantial proportion of the share capital of the two banks with head offices in London would be held outside Australia. 1218 Questions 1218 (Question No. 152) 1218 KUD VICTORIA 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS asked the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: Is the disposal of Australia's wheat crop proceeding satisfactorily? What truth is there in a Press suggestion that difficulties are anticipated in disposal, with consequent problems due to shortage of storage facilities? 1218 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - The Minister for Primary Industry has supplied the following answer to the honourable senator's question: Having regard to the fact that this season's crop is almost 100 million bushels greater than the previous record of 369 million bushels in 1964-65 and that there is an exportable surplus from the crop of over 350 million bushelsI would say that the disposal of the crop is proceeding satisfactorily. In discussing the export sales programme early in April the Chairman of the Australian Wheat Board stated that good progress had already been made with sales totalling 180 million bushels. Such is the magnitude of the crop that disposal will present a difficult task for the Australian Wheat Board and there are bound to be received and storage problems, worse in some regions than in others. It seems to me these problems are general ly being met with resolution and efficiency, to the credit of all concerned. Overshadowing all else is, of course, the consideration that this bountiful crop not only helps the wheat industry to recover from the effects of last season's drought but also brings great benefit to the economy as a whole. 1218 Questions 1218 (Question No. 154) 1218 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice: What are the names of all commentators who have appeared on the Australian Broadcasting Commission's programme 'Let's Find Out'? Has one of these commentators been a Miss Dita Cobb of Sydney? On how many occasions did Miss Cobb appear on the programme? When was the last time she appeared? Is Miss Cobb no longer appearing on the programme? If so, why not? 1218 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Postmaster-General has supplied the following answers: The names of all the women guests who have appeared as commentators in 'Let's Find Out' are: Yes. Miss Cobb appeared in forty programmes. 14th March 1967. Miss Cobb is not at present appearing on the programme. 'Let's Find Out' has only one permanent commentation, ABC staff member Ellis Blain. The programme is broadcast five times a week. The twenty-five people named above are all guests engaged for one programme at a time. No engagement form or contract has ever been offered for more than one appearance at a time. The ABC changes the panel whenever it becomes desirable to inject fresh thoughts and points of view into the programme. 1218 Questions 1218 (Question No. 166) 1218 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS asked the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: What is the present position regarding payments for Australian wheat sold to Mainland China by the Australian Wheat Board? Are reports correct that some payments are overdue? If so, to what extent? 1218 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - The Minister for Primary Industry has supplied the following answers to the honourable senator's questions: All payments due to date by Mainland China to the Australian Wheat Board have been made. No. 1218 Questions 1218 1218 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - On 5th April Senator McManus asked the following question: My question is directed to the Minister representing the Postmaster-General. Will he inquire into serious allegations contained in the issue of the journal 'Spotlight' of 15th March, which stated that in defiance of the Postal Regulations the names of persons renting postal boxes in Melbourne had been disclosed to unauthorised persons on a number of occasions? If the allegations are correct, what action has been taken against those responsible? The Postmaster-General has now furnished the following information in reply: Inquiries made have failed to reveal any evidence that the names of persons renting private postal boxes in Melbourne have been disclosed to unauthorised persons. 1219 miscellaneous 1219 1219 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - by leave - I have a statement which was made in another place by the Minister for Territories (Mr Barnes) on 4th May and which deals with discussions on the form of government for the Northern Territory. With the concurrence of honourable senators, I incorporate it in Hansard. The statement is as follows: Talks have been taking place in Canberra this week between the Government and representatives of the Legislative Council for the Northern Territory. The Government was represented at these talks by the Minister for Territories (Mr Barnes), the Minister for National Development (Mr Fairbairn), the Attorney-General (Mr Bowen), and the Minister for Works (Mr Kelly). Messrs H. Chan, M.L.C., R. J. Withnall, M.L.C. and F. W. Drysdale, M.L.C., who are elected members, and Mr B. Kilgariff, M.L.C., a nominated non-official member, represented the Legislative Council. These talks were held at the request of the Legislative Council which, among other things, had sought clarification of the Government's attitude towards the functioning of the Legislative Council and the Administrator's Council for the Northern Territory. The talks provided an opportunity for a full exchange of views on both sides. The Legislative Councillors amplified their view that the Commonwealth was exercising unduly detailed supervision over ordinances passed by the Legislative Council, and was unreasonably denying a legitimate extension of the scope of the Legislative Council and the Administrator's Council. The Ministers pointed out that of 390 ordinances passed by the Legislative Council between 1960 and 1966 there had been only nine substantive cases of rejection of whole Ordinances, or 2.3% of the total, and one case of disallowance of a single section. The general attitude of the Commonwealth Government is that the Legislative Council and Administrator's Council are intended to provide the means by which the representatives of the Northern Territory community have the greatest possible oppor tunity to participate in the government of the Territory. At the same time, because of the dependence of the Northern Territory on financial provisions made by the Commonwealth Parliament, because of the smallness of the population and because of its importance in the future development of Australia, matters would arise from time to time on which, in order to discharge the responsibilities resting upon it, the Commonwealth Government needed to retain the right of final decision. In the Government's view, whatever arrangements were adopted for the government of the Northern Territory, they would need to be consistent with the following principles: Final authority of government has to be related to financial autonomy. The responsibility for taking executive decisions cannot be separated from the responsibility for carrying out those decisions. Other than in areas of special concern to the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth will not normally intervene in decisions of the Legislative Council or the acceptance of advice of the Administrator's Council. So long as the financial, administrative and political resources of the Territory provide an insufficient basis for effective government the Commonwealth cannot divest itself of final authority in areas of special concern to it. Within those special areas it will give full weight to the views of the Legislative Council and of the Administrator's Council in its consultative role. In the present stage of Territory development, executive and legislative power, if exercised by Northern Territory institutions without Commonwealth surveillance, must be defined on a very limited scale to accord with the practical situation. On the other hand participation in government by Territory elected representatives need not be so narrowly limited if that participation takes place with recognition that a measure of surveillance by the Commonwealth is part of the basic constitutional and practical position. There are no barriers to the extension of local government. The Legislative Councillors stressed that their approach was a responsible one and maintained that on many issues they would be the best judges of which course would best serve the Territory's interests. It was agreed that there was scope, without statutory change, for extension of consultation in the Administrator's Council on a variety of matters of Northern Territory concern. The Ministers agreed that ways of putting this into practical effect would be examined. The following comments apply to specific matters raised by Legislative Councillors: The Ministers would give further consideration to representations for the replacement of the three nominated non-official members of the Legislative Council by elected members. The Ministers pointed out that the present structure of the Legislative Council provided a careful balance between the eight elected members, the six official members, and the three non-official members. Any change which disturbed that balance would need to provide means by which there would be reasonable opportunity for the Executive to secure passage of necessary official legislation. Continuation of membership of the Administrator's Council of a nominated non-official member was linked with the question of continuation of nominated non-official membership of the Legislative Council. Ordinances which may be passed by the Legislative Council to enlarge the statutory range of matters referred to the Administrator's Council would be considered sympathetically. There had in the last few years been a substantial enlargement of that range. Nevertheless, there were matters on which the Commonwealth could be expected to maintain its full executive authority. In the light of present opportunities for elected and non-official members of the Administrator's Council to have matters discussed by that Council, no alteration in present statutory arrangements was considered by Ministers to be warranted. As stated above, it was intended that an extension of consultation in the Administrator's Council under existing statutory provisions would be arranged. The Legislative Councillors maintained that there was particular injustice in denial of full voting rights to the Northern Territory Member of the House of Representatives in the light of the Government's insistence on retention of ultimate authority on Territory matters and the withholding from the Legislative Council of powers of appropriation. The Ministers agreed to recommend that full voting rights should be accorded to the Northern Territory member after the next Federal elections. The Ministers reiterated that the Government attached importance to the extension and growth of local government in the Territory. The Legislative Councillors stated that they noted with satisfaction the proposal to recommend that the member for the Northern Territory should have an unlimited voting right in the House of Representatives. As to the Minister's expressed intention to consider the representations for the abolition of the offices of nominated non-official members, Councillors noted this intention but did not accept that any such action should be accompanied by any subtraction from the present authority of the Legislative Council. As to the other proposals brought forward for discussion Councillors expressed dissatisfaction with the attitude of the Ministers that no extension of the statutory authority of the Legislative Council and Administrator's Council in the administration of government in the Northern Territory will be considered. They agreed that consultation can be useful but is no substitute for direct participation in the affairs of local concern. They considered that the Ministers in these talks had shown little, if any, intention to relax the tight control over the details of administration, and forecast that continuance in this attitude will result in increasing dissatisfaction amongst the people of the Territory. The Legislative Councillors expressed regret that the Ministers had shown so little understanding of the situation in the Northern Territory as to meet their proposals for legislative reform of the organs of government in the Territory with little more than an elaborate refusal. The Ministers considered that the views expressed by the Legislative Councillors did not sufficiently acknowledge the extent of real influence they have on the government of the Territory under present arrangements, which, in the view of the Ministers are working reasonably well. The Ministers considered it fundamental that the Commonwealth must have the final responsibility at this stage of the Territory's development, but they expressed the hope that the people of the Territory would have an increasing voice and influence. 1221 miscellaneous Motion (by Senator Henty) agreed to: That unless otherwise ordered the days and times of meeting of the Senate for the period from 9th May to 19th May 1967 be as follows: That unless otherwise ordered the sessional order relating to the adjournment of the Senate have effect at 1 1.30 p.m. on each such day. 1221 miscellaneous Address-in-Reply : Acknowledgment by Her Majesty the Queen 1221 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I inform the Senate that I have received the following message from His Excellency the Administrator in connection with the Address-in-Reply: Mr President, I have to inform you that the substance of the Address-in-Reply which you presented to the Governor-General on 11th April 1967 has been communicated to Her Majesty the Queen. It is Her Majesty's wish that I express to you and honourable senators Her warm thanks for the loyal message to which your Address gives expression. EDRIC BASTYAN Administrator 1221 bill Assent reported. 1221 bill Bill returned from the House of Representatives with a message intimating that it had disagreed to the amendment made by the Senate. In Committee Consideration of House of Representatives message. Clause 3. Section 2 of the Principal Act is amended by omitting the definition of "eligible organisation" and inserting in its stead the following definitions: - " ' eligible organization' means - an organization (other than an organization conducted or controlled by, or by persons appointed by, the Government of the Commonwealth or of a State) that is carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members and is - a religious organization; an organizationthe principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent: an organization of former members of the Defence Force established in every State or a State branch of such an organization: or an organization approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act; and a local governing body, and includes - the trustee or trustees under a trust established by an organization referred to in paragraph (a) of this definition or by a local governing body; a corporation established by such an organization or by a local governing body; and the trustee or trustees under a trust established for charitable or benevolent purposes and approved by the. Governor-General for the purposes of this Act; Senate's amendment. After paragraph (b) in the definition of " eligible organization" insert "and (ba) a trade union registered under a law of the Commonwealth or of a State,". House of Representatives message: Amendment disagreed to. Reasons of the House of Representatives for disagreeing to the amendment of the Senate: Because: A trade union is in no different position to any other organisation that does not fall within paragraph (a) of the definition of eligible organisation. There is no more reason why a trade union should be selected for specific mention in a separate paragraph than there is for other organisations such as the Country Women's Association, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, Apex Clubs or associations of employers. It would be open to any of these organisations including a tradeunion to establish a trust for charitable or benevolent purposes such as the conduct of an aged persons home, and have that trust approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act. The trustee or trustees of the trust would then be an eligible organisation under paragraph (e) of the definition. Alternatively a trade turton could be approved by the Governor-Genera, under sub-paragraph (iv) of paragraph (a) if it was not carried on for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members. 1222 K28 Queensland LP Minister for Housing 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN [3.49] - 1 move: That the Committee do not insist on the amendment disagreed to by the House of Representatives. The House of Representatives has disagreed to the Senate's amendment to the Bill for reasons which have been circulated to honourable senators. Those reasons, in substance, are the same as those that I advanced previously, during the debate on the amendment in this chamber. The Government takes the view that the amendment is unnecessary, since the legislation before the Senate permits the participation by a trade union in the scheme. Much has been said previously in this chamber about whether trade unions are organisations the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent. I should like once more to attempt to make the position perfectly clear. If a trade union is carried on otherwise than for the purposes of profit or gain to its individual members, and is an organisation the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent, it could be admitted under paragraph (a) (ii) of the proposed definition of 'eligible organisation'. If it is carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members but could not be regarded as an organisation the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent, it could be admitted under paragraph (a) (iv) as an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purpose of the Act. If a trade union did not qualify under either of those sections, it could establish a trust for charitable or benevolent purposes, and that trust could be approved by the Governor-General for the purpose of the Act. The trust or the trustee or trustees of the trust would then be eligible for inclusion under paragraph (e) of the definition. I am sure that I need hardly say that the conduct of an aged persons home would be acceptable as a charitable or benevolent purpose. I must also point out that, in regard to the alternatives I have mentioned, it would be necessary for a trade union - as it is with any other organisation other than a religious body - to show that its constitution did not prevent it from establishing and conducting homes for the aged or prevent it from establishing a trust for this purpose. Obviously il would be quite wrong for the Government to make a grant of money towards a project if the organisation were prevented by its own constitution from undertaking the project. It might interest the Senate to know that twenty-eight organisations have been approved by the Governor-General as eligible organisations under the. latter two methods to which I have referred; they include the Country Women's Association, friendly societies, Rotary clubs, lodges of various categories, and trustees of a number of estates. It is not possible - and indeed it would not be sensible - to attempt specifically to list in the definition all the types of organisations that could be eligible. If trade unions were shown, many other organisations, including employer organisations and others such as I have already mentioned, could well expect specific reference. Further, the Government considers that trade unions would be most appropriate bodies to establish and conduct homes for the aged, and would welcome their participation in this activity. Although it has been made clear on a number of occasions in the past in this House and in another place that trade unions could be eligible bodies, it is an unfortunate fact that no trade union has so far, either directly or indirectly, made application for approval as an eligible organisation. I emphasise that in the Prime Minister's policy speech last November he undertook to include local government bodies as eligible organisations. The Government, therefore, has a mandate from the electors to put into effect the proposal it has submitted in this Bill. I hope that the Senate will permit the Government to do so. and I hope that it will not insist on this amendment. 1222 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - This matter was well thrashed out in this chamber in the Committee stage of the consideration of this Bill last week. The reasons which were advanced by the Opposition then were never properly rebutted by the Government. The action of the Government in refusing to accept the Senate's amendment is petulant. It is a petty approach. The Government concedes that the trade unions are most appropriate bodies to establish and conduct homes for the aged. Those are the very words of the Minister for Social Services (Mr Sinclair). The Government has taken the line that the trade unions are covered in the sense that they might fall under sub-paragraph (ii) of paragraph (a), which reads: an organization the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent; The Committee has heard the argument on that matter and it is apparent that the trade unions would not fall within that subparagraph. Perhaps if some of them did it would be by accident. It would be hard to imagine a trade union whose principal objects or purposes were charitable or benevolent. That argument has never been dealt with by Ministers. The suggestion that trade unions come within that provision cannot be sustained. I repeat that it is clear that a trade union may have objects or purposes that are charitable or benevolent but those are not the principal objects of the trade union. 1223 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - If they are named in the Bill and they are not charitable or benevolent organisations, they qualify. Is that not the position? 1223 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - If individual bodies were to be named, of course these bodies would become eligible organisations. 1223 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - Even if they were not charitable. 1223 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The proposal of the Opposition is not to name bodies. It is to use the description 'a trade union registered under a law of this Commonwealth or of a State'. We have not even suggested that individual organisations be named. Notwithstanding this, the reasons advanced by the Government set out that if we were to mention trade unions specifically we would do the same for Country Women's Associations, Lions Clubs and Apex Clubs. No-one has suggested that we should include a whole list of trade unions or selected trade unions. The description is: a trade union registered under a law of the Commonwealth or of a State. There was no suggestion that individual ones be named. That reasoning is baseless. One Government senator has said, and we agree, that it is wrong in principle that a trade union should have to seek the approval of the Governor-General. The objection to this was made all the stronger when the Minister for Repatriation (Senator McKellar) suggested that a politicial test be applied to registered trade unions in respect of a matter such as this, that is, providing homes for the aged. Apart from the constitutional aspects of such an approach, it is an approach that would not be accepted, I think, by any person who had any regard for civil liberties in this community. If one wanted to encourage people to think that they were martyrs or that the system of society was wrong, one would apply that approach. Here is an object of providing homes for the aged. A registered trade union is an entity in itself. It is registered under Federal or State law; it has rules which are required to conform to Federal or State law; it has electoral processes which are required to conform to Federal or State law; its administration is supervised by Federal or State tribunals, and it is required to submit balance sheets to Federal and State officials. In all ways trade unions are bodies setup subject to an extremely high degree of control under Federal and State law. 1223 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - Do any of the reasons the honourable senator has stated invalidate the opportunity for a trade union to form a trust for this purpose? 1223 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - Before it can form a trust it has to be an organisation referred to in paragraph (a). This suggestion of a trust is misleading. It is a red herring, because the real question is how an organisation comes within the ambit of paragraph (a), not whether it can form a trust. The latter is completely beside the point, because an organisation must come within the provisions of paragraph (a) (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) before the provisions as to trust operate. Can the honourable senator understand that this is merely a subsidiary way of dealing with an organisation? An organisation is eligible either directly under that or by way of a trustee. This does not advance the matter at all, and if the honourable senator peruses the clause in question and ponders it he will see that what I am saying is correct. Before the provisions as to trusts operated an organisation would still have to be either a religious organisation or it would have to fall within the requirement of sub-paragraph (ii), and be an organisation the principal object or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent, or sub-paragraph (in) and be an organisation of former members of the Defence force established in every Stats or a St.:te branch of such an organisation, or sub-paragraph (iv), and be an organisation approved by the Governor-General. It is no advance at all. One may say that an organisation is set up either by its governing body or it is set up under a trust. This is only the machinery of the thing. It is not the real point. 1224 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - 1 completely understand that, but I cannot comprehend why the Leader of the Opposition argues that one cannot form a trust in accordance with sub-paragraph (iv). 1224 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The question is whether the trade unions should be eligible organisations coming within one of these categories or whether they should be discriminated against and be forced to obtain approval from the Governor-General in accordance with sub-paragraph (iv). To say that a trade union could form a trust does not in any way get away from that point. If unions were prepared to set up trusts they would still have to get approval as organisations under sub-paragraph (iv). Then it is clear in logic that the matter as to trusts is only machinery, lt has nothing to do with the gravamen of the matter. Trade unions do not fit in under subparagraph (i); they do not fit in under subparagraph (ii), as we have demonstrated, notwithstanding the reasons advanced; they do not fit in under sub-paragraph (iii) and they should not have to fit in under subparagraph (iv). 1224 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - They do. 1224 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - They do not fit in under sub-paragraph (iv) unless they get approval. The Opposition has taken the stand - and the Government has advanced no satisfactory argument to the contrary - that there is no reason why a registered trade union should not be on the same footing as a religious organisation, as an organisation the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent or an organisation of former members of the defence force established in every State or a State branch of such an organisation. That is the argument. It is as simple as that. Why should trade unions not be on the same footing as those organisations? That argument is in no way answered by what has been put forward by the Government. When one knows the background of the matter, and when it is conceded, as I repeat, by the Minister for Social Services that these are the most appropriate bodies to establish and conduct homes for the aged, it appears to us that the amendment which has been proposed by the Opposition should have been accepted by the Government without any fuss or bother. Instead, the Government is taking a stand in this place to reject the proposed amendment because it wants to show that it will insist on its view notwithstanding the lack of argument to support it and that it will force its will upon the Senate. 1224 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I would not like the honourable senator to think that the Government's stand is not reinforced with very good and sound arguments. Under this legislation the Government's policy is that religious bodies, charitable and benevolent organisations and organisations conducted on a non-profit basis may qualify. I '.till have not received from the honourable senator a reply to my question as to what happens if a nominated registered trade union does not come within those provisions. If 'registered trade unions' were written into the legislation and there happened to be one which was conducted for profit- 1224 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - It is impossible. 1224 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - It is not impossible unless that were specifically stated in the union's constitution. 1224 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - But that is a requirement of Federal and State law. A trade union is not a business enterprise. 1224 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - That may be so, but it may not be so. There has been no instance of a trade union applying, but if one did apply and it was conducted for charitable or benevolent purposes or on a non-profit basis it would qualify automatically. That is the position. If it did not want to meet those requirements it could set up a trust. This is a very simple matter and I believe the argument advanced by the Government is sound. 1 have not yet heard the honourable senator say what would happen if such bodies were nominated and it was found that one or two were not conducted wholly on a non-profit basis. 1225 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - If it is convenient I propose to answer this question immediately. No trade union can be conducted for the profit of its individual members. The definition of 'trade union' under Federal and State law forbids that. That is not the nature of trade unions. They are not by any definition business enterprises conducted for the profit of individual members. 1225 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - I seem to remember payments to maritime unions or some practice of that kind in the past. I would be worried if we gave such an organisation, as a charitable or benevolent society, access to funds to engage in providing homes for the aged. 1225 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - -The Minister has revealed two facts by that interjection, firstly, that it is proposed to apply some political test - quite wrongly - to trade unions, and secondly, that his understanding of a trade union operating for the profit of individual members is completely against the notion of a trade union. 1225 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Does the honourable senator mean that a trade union cannot conduct some enterprise and make a profit out of it? 1225 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - If any trade union were to do that it would be acting wrongly. It would be acting in breach of the rules of the union and would be subject to correction by its members. Everyone knows that. For Government senators to pursue that line, as they apparently intend to do, discloses an anti-union bias on their part. Senator Henty has deliberately evaded the words of sub-paragraph (ii). It is not a question whether an organisation is a charitable or benevolent body. It is a question whether an organisation is one the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent. I repeat the words the principal objects or purposes'. So there can be trade unions which are charitable or benevolent but, because their principal object is not charitable or benevolent but industrial, they therefore do not come within paragraph (ii), they do not come within paragraph (i), and they do not come within paragraph (iii). This means, notwithstanding all that the Minister has said, that it is not open to them to form a trust. 1225 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - It is under paragraph (iv). 1225 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - This is the very point of the amendment. It has been said - and 1 am pleased to see that the Minister is at last coming to grips with it - that trade unions cannot qualify under the first three paragraphs notwithstanding what appears in the reasons which have been put forward. It is said that it would be open to any of these organisations, including trade unions, to establish a trust for a charitable or benevolent purpose, such as conducting an aged persons home and have that trust approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act. 1225 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - Does the honourable senator say that is an incorrect statement? 1225 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - That is an incorrect statement because the organisation must be one the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent. I ask honourable senators in fairness to look at what is in the Bill. Paragraph (ii) refers to an organisation the principal object or purpose of which is charitable or benevolent. In the including part of the Bill, mention is made of the trustee or trustees under a "rust established by an organisation referred to in paragraph (a) of the definition. So it has to be established by an organisation the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent. If that cannot be seen, then 1 am afraid those who do not see will not see. There is no substance in what has been advanced by the Leader of the Government and I would ask the Senate again to reject the Bill in its present form and insist upon the amendment made by the Senate. Senator DameANNABELLE RANKIN (Queensland - Minister for Housing) [4.12] - I must remind the Senate again, as I did previously that the reason given by the House of Representatives for disagreement with the amendment is that a trade union is in no different position to any other organisation that does not fall within sub-paragraphs (i), (ii) or (iii) of paragraph (a) of the definition of 'eligible organization'. But it is still possible for it to qualify as have a variety of other organisations which L shall name in a moment. They have qualified under either paragraph (a) (iv) as organisations approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act . or sub-clause (e) as a trust established for charitable or benevolent purposes and approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act. To date, no trade union has applied to benefit in this way. I think it will be of interest to the Senate to know what organisations have been approved by the Governor-General under sections 5 (1) (b) (iv) and 5 (2) of the existing Act. A wide variety of organisations have received assistance in this way. They are the Australasian Trained Nurses Association of New South Wales, the Country Women's Associations of Queensland, South Australia, Victoria and Western Australia, the Grand Lodge of Western Australia of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons, the Grand United Order of Oddfellows Friendly Society of New South Wales, the Independent Order of Oddfellows of New South Wales, the Manchester Unity Independent Order of Oddfellows in New South Wales, South Australia and Victoria, the Rotary Club of Maitland, New South Wales, the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes Grand Council of Australia Incorporated of Western Australia, the South Australian United Ancient Order of Druids, the United Ancient Order of Druids Friendly Society Grand Lodge of New South Wales, and thirteen trusts established by the trustees for the estates of various persons. These are all organisations which have been approved by the Governor-General under these provisions and which have received assistance. I come back to the point I made previously. It does not seem logical or sensible that each one of these various organisations should be specifically named in the legislation. I cannot see that a trade union, if it is carried on otherwise than for the purposes of profit or gain for its individual members and is an organisation the' principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent, cannot be admitted under the proposed new paragraph (a) (2). If it is carried on otherwise than for the purposes of profit or gain for its individual members and cannot be regarded as an organisation. the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent, it can be admitted under paragraph (iv) as an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act. If it docs not qualify under that provision, then it can establish a trust and if that trust is approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act it then becomes an eligible organisation under paragraph (e) of the definition. As I said previously, I believe the Bill as drafted covers the point raised relating to a trade union. A trade union can benefit under the legislation. 1 submit that the Bill covers the wish of honourable senators that a trade union shall be able to accept a grant. So far no trade union has ever made application, but if it does and it fulfills the conditions laid down, it can receive a grant as have other organisations which have been assisted. 1226 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I see more importance in rejecting the recommendation from the other place on this occasion than I saw in approving the Senate amendment when we discussed it last Tuesday. Last Tuesday, the Government parties were of the opinion that trade unions were covered by the Bill and there was no need to mention them specifically. The Opposition was of the opinion that trade unions should be mentioned specifically. There was no strong denial from this side of the Chamber that trade unions may be covered already. Why is there this disagreement between the Government and- the Opposition over this matter? The inclusion of trade unions would not affect the Government in any way; it would not be a blow to the prestige of the Government. Therefore, we must look for the reason for this strong opposition from the Government. Why does the Opposition insist upon the inclusion of trade unions if, as the Government argues, they are covered? Because the Government is so insistent upon rejecting our suggestion, the Opposition is very suspicious of the Government's action over this question. It was argued in the House of Representatives and repeated by the Minister for Housing today that a trade union is in no different position to any other organisation that does not fall within paragraph (a) of the proposed new section 2. There was also mention of paragraph (iv). It was argued that the position of a trade union would be analogous to that of an organisation coming under that provision. Last Tuesday night I raised the question of the legal interpretation of that part of the definition which relates to an organisation carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members. I accept the interpretation of the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Murphy) who argues that a trade union would not be carried on for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members and therefore would qualify under paragraph (a). The important point in all these matters is the interpretation placed upon these words by the Minister or the Department. lt is most unlikely that anyone would challenge a gift to an organisation. I think the power to challenge would be restricted. But although the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) has stated the reasons for the rejection of the Senate amendment by the other place, the point relating to an organisation the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent was not mentioned during the course of the debate in that place. The Minister for Housing is not sure, I think, whether trade unions do come under that provision of the Act, and the Leader of the Opposition has told the Committee that they do not come under that provision of the Act. We then come to the only other question in relation to this point. We find in paragraph (a) of the definition that an eligible organisation means: an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act. Organisations have to be approved by the Governor-General in order to be eligible to receive the grant. The reasons given in another place for the rejection of our amendment include the argument that trade unions are covered by paragraph (e) of the definition. I am inclined to believe that trade unions could even be organisations that are carried on otherwise than for profit or gain if they create a: trustee or trustees under a trust established for charitable or benevolent purposes and approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act. Some doubt exists whether a trade union could not be included in the definitions of either paragraph (a) sub-paragraph (iv) or paragraph (e) of the definition. But the Opposition has asked why trade unions should be in a different class from Rotary clubs or Apex clubs. Why should they be different from religious organisations or any other organisation? The distinction between trade unions on the one hand and Rotary and Apex clubs on the other is that the Rotary and Apex clubs are more or less charitable organisations of which all responsible sections of the community approve. Trade unions are organisations of which some sections of the community do npt approve. Trade unions are different from Apex clubs, Rotary clubs or even Country Women's Associations. No-one can object if approval is given to a local town branch of the Country Women's Association to receive a loan to build an aged persons home. But it seems that someone would object if a loan to build an aged persons home were given to the Carpenters Union in Tasmania. 1227 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - No-one could object if the trade union was a charitable or benevolent organisation and came within the definition of the Act. It would be quite all right. How could anyone object? 1227 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - An organisation comes under the Act only if it is approved by the Governor-General. 1227 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - The union could set up a trust. 1227 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Even if it sets up a trust, it has still to be approved. The Bill provides for an eligible organisation to include: an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act. An eligible organisation must be approved by the Governor-General. The point is that approval is given to acceptable charitable organisations without any dispute or argument. But trade unions are controversial organisations in our society. They are not liked by some sections of the Government forces. Therefore the question arises of granting approval to trade unions. We have heard evidence of the thinking of some members of the Government. Senator Heatley from Queensland is not prepared to give a donation to the organisation with which Pat Mackie was associated. The Minister for Repatriation (Senator Mckellar) would not give the grant to what he terms Communist organisations. That is the distinction between the attitudes adopted by Senator Heatley and the Minister for Repatriation. I do not think that it has been suggested that Pat Mackie was a Communist, but in Senator Heatley's eyes he was undesirable and therefore the organisation to which he belonged should not receive a grant. Consequently, in the eyes of Government members a number of trade unions should not receive a grant. This means then that under this Act only those trade unions that are approved by the Government will be recognised as eligible. The grant becomes a reward for an organisation that obtains Government approval. This boils down to the establishment of tame cat unions. If a union does the right thing, it will receive Government approval and its assets for the building of homes for its aged persons will be increased by two-thirds from Government finance. But is there any danger in granting approval to the union of which Pat Mackie was a member or to a union that has Communist leadership? The security that is provided in this respect is found in section 7 of the Aged Persons Homes Act. Sub-section (3.) provides: A payment under this Act shall not be made except to a corporation in which, or to trustees in whom, the approved home is to be vested. This is met in paragraph (e) of the definition of eligible organisation which provides that the money must be invested by the trustee or trustees under a trust established for charitable or benevolent purposes. So, I do not see why even an organisation in which Pat Mackie was involved or to which he belonged could not obtain the grant if it had a system of trustees. Section 8 of the Act provides: (1.) A grant to an eligible organisation under this Act may be made upon such terms and conditions, not inconsistent with this Act as the Director-General thinks fit. 1228 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - From what ls the honourable senator reading? 1228 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I am reading from the Aged Persons Homes Act 1954-67, and am quoting section 8. Sub-section (2.) provides: Before making a grant under this Act to an eligible organisation, the Director-General may require the organisation to enter into an agreement wilh him with respect to the terms and conditions upon which the grant is to be made. Sub-section (3.) states: An agreement under the last preceding subsection may, if the Director-General considers the circumstances so require, include an- undertaking by the eligible organisation with respect to the continued use of the home as a home for aged persons, and provision for the repayment of the grant to the Commonwealth in the event of a breach of the undertaking, and for the giving of security for the carrying out of the undertaking. First we see in respect of the whole system the necessity for trustees. A grant is given for a building under the conditions laid down by the Director-General. If the conditions are not fulfilled, the grant is to be repaid. There is no question of any abuse of this grant by anyone who represents a trade union if such a body were approved. Under section 8 of the Act, it is impossible for abuse to occur. Safeguards are provided and are used for that purpose. The question of someone misappropriating the money does not arise. It is a payment in respect of capital that has been spent on a building or is being spent on a building in course of erection. The Commonwealth does not give money to anyone. Every safeguard in the world is provided. With all these safeguards provided, what the Government wants to do is to make grants to organisations of which it has approved and refuse grants to organisations to which it has objected. The Government has rejected the organisations regarding which there is a difference of opinion as to their desirability. Surely the Government can see the importance of this? It has reached the stage now where it is deciding on political issues whether it should or should not approve an organisation. This is an important matter to the Opposition. The Government might reject an organisation or a trade union because the secretary of that organisation or trade union has, in the opinion of the Government, an undesirable political following. But that secretary will not be there permanently whereas the homes that are built will be permanent. Let us consider how this question fits into the pattern in the second reading speech by the Minister. With tears in her eyes she stated: We are all aware, Mr President, that adequate housing in congenial surroundings is one of the greatest needs of old people. Then the Minister spoke of providing comfortable housing for people in the eventide of their lives. She went on to say: This was achieved through the introduction of the Aged Persons Homes Act which has given encouragement and financial help to the religious and charitable organisations and enabled them to expand their activities. The success of the Act is a matter of record. Since its inception, subsidies in excess of $66m have been approved and accommodation provided for more than 25,000 aged persons. Then we come to the pride expressed in the Minister's speech regarding the achievements of the Government. The Minister stated that the Government commenced the scheme with religious organisations that had some experience in caring for old people. But the scheme has now been extended. The Minister says in this regard: An important development in recent years has been the increased interest in aged persons homes shown by local governing bodies, many of which have assisted aged persons homes organisations by grants of land and in other ways. The Government welcomes this interest. In order to enable local governing bodies to participate more directly in the operation of the Act ... it has introduced this Bill . . . Now we come to the amendment initiated by the Opposition, which seeks to give effect to the interest of the trade unions and have the scheme extended to include them. Under the terms of the principal Act how can any trade union apply for recognition for the purposes of the scheme unless the basis is to be one in all in? If an isolated trade union has the required qualifications enabling it to receive approval how can it apply for recognition in the knowledge that a brother trade union may not be acceptable to the Governor-General? Do honourable senators opposite believe that any trade union could take pride in obtaining recognition while another union was not recognised? This has now become the important question. It is even more important than the question of who will provide aged persons homes in the future. This is the important question that has arisen because of the Government's desire to maintain a system under which it can differentiate between one trade union and another in extending the benefit of the subsidy. In all sincerity we ask: 'Is this right? Should it be permitted?' There is no explanation of the Government's attitude except that it wishes to be able to differentiate between trade unions. The Act covers the situation in which there could be any fear of the activities of an organisation. So there would be no danger at all in the Opposition's amendment as originally accepted by the Senate. However, the Government wants to reserve to the Governor-General the right to approve or disapprove of a trade union. This distinction does not apply to other organisations- 1229 10000 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Wedgwood - Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. Senator DameANNABELLE RANKIN (Queensland - Minister for Housing) [4.32] - Madam Temporary Chairman, I can only repeat what I have said in this chamber before. Apparently Senator Cavanagh has not understood the points that 1 made. I reiterate that a trade union can receive assistance if it fulfils the particular requirements laid down, just as other organisations have to do. Let us look at the three provisions that apply to trade unions. If a trade union is carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members, and is an organisation the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent, it can be recognised under the scheme as provided in sub-paragraph (ii) of paragraph (a) of the proposed new definition of eligible organisation' contained in clause 3. 1 have already mentioned this provision. If a trade union is carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its individual members but could not be regarded as an organisation the principal objects of which are charitable or benevolent it can be recognised under subparagraph (iv). That sub-paragraph provides for the participation of 'an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act'. I have already told honourable senators opposite of the numbers of organisations that have been recognised under the terms of the corresponding provision already in the Act. If a trade union does not qualify under either of these sub-paragraphs it can establish a trust for charitable or benevolent purposes and that trust could be approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of the Act. The trustees would then be an eligible organisation under the terms of paragraph (e) of the definition. Provisions in these terms already appear in the principal Act, and these will be succeeded by the provisions in the Bill when it becomes law. So that a trade union has been able and will continue to be able to apply for recognition under the scheme, lt is necessary for a trade union, as it is for other organisations except religious bodies, to establish that its constitution does not prevent it from establishing and conducting homes for the aged or from establishing a trust for this purpose. 1 can only say now, as I have said previously, that as the Act stands, a trade union can apply, and could have applied over the years. As with other organisations, a trade union can receive the grant if it fulfils the required conditions. All the other organisations are not enumerated in the Bill. They are provided for in the provisions that I have mentioned. 1 believe that the extending of the scheme to local government organisations, as promised by the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) in his policy speech for the recent general election, will extend the benefits of the aged persons homes scheme. 1 would like to see this measure passed without the amendment originally made at the instigation of the Opposition. Therefore, I ask the Committee not to insist on the amendment. 1230 1L5 New South Wales Leader of the Opposition 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - Madam Temporary Chairman, on behalf of the Opposition I thank the Minister for again staling to us what seems to be the only basis for the Government's insistence on its stand and its opposition to the amendment. If ever a case that was unsound and without substance was advanced it is the case that the Government has put up on this issue. We have asked again and again why the Government has taken this stand, but we have not been given the slightest reason why a trade union not conducted for the gain or profit of its members should not be provided for in terms of the amendment that we had inserted in the measure. In relation to the aged persons homes scheme a trade union is in the same position as a local government body, a religious, charitable or benevolent organisation and any of the other kinds of organisation mentioned by the Minister and, like them, would have to comply strictly with the terms and conditions laid down in the principal Act. Senator Cavanagh went through them in detail. Organisations assisted under the scheme can be tied hand and foot by various conditions relating to financial stringency, guarantees, audits and anything else that the Government requires. No organisation can indulge in any nonsense. These provisions apply equally to all. Why should a trade union be discriminated against? Why should it be treated differently from, say, a religious organisation? All sorts of bodies may conduct religious organisations. No-one applies to them the test that they must be approved by the Governor-General or by anyone else. Neither is that test applied to an organisation the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent. Such organisations can spring up all over the place. There are thousands of them in this country. So long as the principal object or purpose of such a body is charitable or benevolent, it does not need the approval of the Governor-General. It is true that such an organisation has to comply with certain financial conditions, just the same as a trade union would have to do, but there is no requirement that the approval of the Governor-General must be obtained. Such organisations are automatically eligible, as are organisations of former members of the defence forces established in every State, or a State branch of such an organisation. Why should such bodies be automatically eligible and trade unions not, though they are registered under Federal or State law and are subject to all the forms of regulation and control that we have mentioned? Why should trade unions have to be approved by the Governor-General? Notwithstanding anything that has been said by the Minister or by the Leader of the Government (Senator Henty) there has been no answer to this argument. That is the kernel of the whole matter. The amendment which was proposed by the Opposition and which was inserted in the Bill is sensible. I repeat that the Government has been petulant in seeking to have it rejected. I ask the Committee to insist on the amendment. 1230 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Madam Temporary Chairman, there is little point in continuing for too long to go over all the grounds advanced by the Minister against the Opposition's argument that the amendment should be insisted on. If there has been any failure on my part to understand the comments made by the Minister, I take responsibility. I do not criticise her ability to explain matters. I believe that she has very clearly stated the position as she sees it. I think we all are inclined to agree that if the position were as she states it her observations would be correct. She has said that if a trade union is carried on otherwise than for the purpose of profit or gain to its members and if it is an organisation the principal objects and purposes of which are charitable or benevolent it is an eligible organisation. We do not disagree with that. We disagree with the statement that a trade union is not an organisation the principal objects or purposes of which are charitable or benevolent and which therefore does not come within the section relating to such organisations. If a trade union were a religious organisation it would come within the Act. Although it is claimed that a trade union comes within the Act, that is not one of the reasons why the Opposition should alter its attitude to the Bill because it is not one of the reasons advanced by the other place in refusing the amendment. We then come to sub-paragraph (iv) of paragraph (a) of the definition of 'eligible organisation' which refers to an organisation approved by the Governor-General for the purposes of this Act, or to paragraph (c) which refers to the establishment of a trust or trustees. We agree that a trade union could be covered under those two provisions. But they are the only two provisions under which trade unions can qualify. The only other reason why we are asked not to insist on this amendment is that other organisations have to seek approval and trade unions should be in the same position. As I have stated, there is an important difference. Other organisations are organisations approved by all sections of the community. No political question arises concerning them. But political bias could be shown towards a trade union and the Opposition has the suspicion that it would be shown. The Government's refusal to accept the amendment shows that political bias will be shown. Therefore we ask the Committee to insist on its amendment. Question put: That the Committee do not insist on the amendment disagreed to by the House of Representatives. The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator T. C. Drake-Brockman) 21 22 Majority .. 1 AYES NOES Question resolved in the negative. Resolution reported; report adopted. 1231 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) read a first time. 1231 1231 K28 Queensland LP Minister for Housing 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN [4.50] - I move - That the Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Homes Savings Grant Act 1964-1966 in a number of ways. Certain proposed amendments will extend the scheme to include widowed persons aged less than thirty-six years with one or more dependent children and will increase from $14,000 to $15,000 the limit on the value of a home that may attract a grant. The scheme is still in its relative infancy and several amendments will, as promised by the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) in his recent policy speech, relieve cases of hardship where young people have genuinely saved in an acceptable form for a home of their own, but, because they did not meet one or more requirements of the Act, failed to qualify for a grant. The Housing Ministry will be given new discretionary powers to meet these cases, and these powers will be operative from the date of commencement of the scheme. The amendments also include a number of new proposals that will be explained later in this speech. These will provide for some changes in the conditions under which savings are acceptable. And other provisions will simplify completion of the application form and the recording of savings. The broad effect of all these amendments will be to permit more young people to receive a grant, and to permit others to receive larger grants by making some presently excluded savings acceptable for purposes of the scheme. In framing them, we have had continually in mind that the main purpose' of the scheme is to encourage young people to save as regularly as possible for the first home they own after marriage. This Government is always keen to encourage home ownership. Over the years we have introduced a number of measures to foster this objective. The homes savings grant scheme is one of these measures. It was introduced during the last Parliament with the dual objectives of encouraging young people to save for their first matrimonial home and of increasing the savings deposited with Australian institutions that make the bulk of long term loans for housing purposes. Persons aged less than thirty-six years are encouraged to save by the offer of a grant of $1 for every $3 saved for the first home they own after marriage. The savings must be made over a period of at least three years and held in an approved form. The grant to a married couple, or to a husband or wife if only one is eligible, is a maximum of $500 on savings of $1,500 or more. The grant is a tax-free gift. Paid as a reward for saving, it assists young people to own and establish a home. The scheme applies to young couples whose prescribed dates are on or after 2nd December 1963. The prescribed date is the day on which a person enters into a contract to buy or build the home or, as an owner-builder, commences to build it. As this date is a most significant date for the purposes of the operation of the scheme, and as I will be referring to it quite frequently during the remainder of my remarks, please let me repeat the definition. The prescribed date is the day on which a person enters into a contract to buy or build the home or, as an owner-builder, commences to build it. Up to 5th May 1967, some 77,000 young couples had received homes savings grants totalling over $34} million to assist them lo own and establish a home. This and our other measures to foster home ownership have been very effective. Australia now has a percentage of home ownership unequalled by any other country in the world, and the general, standard of housing in this country is something of which we can all be proud. Half the homes in Australia today have been constructed since this Government came to office in 1949. But we are not content to rest on our past achievements. There are still people seeking homes in Australia who are in need of assistance, and others who are living under conditions that are not generally acceptable. As notes explaining each clause and subclause of the amending Bill have been circulated to all honourable senators, it will not be necessary for me to discuss all the clauses in detail. However, honourable senators will I am sure welcome an outline of the more significant proposals. This Bill will make it possible for widowed persons aged less than thirty-six years with one or more dependent children to become eligible for the grant. It will apply to widowed persons who, on or after 28th November 1966, entered into a contract to buy or build- a home or, as owner-builders, commenced its construction, and, of course, those who do so in future. The definition of a 'dependent child' follows the definition of that expression contained in the Social Services Act in relation to widows pensions. As from 1st January 1968, young widowed persons will be required to hold their acceptable savings, other than those spent on the purchase of land, on a deposit on the home or on materials for the home, in a home savings account with a bank, or with a building or housing society. But I emphasise that this requirement will not apply to widowed persons until 1st January 1968. The intervening period will be regarded as a transitional period during which special provisions will apply to their savings. Under these provisions, a widowed person whose prescribed date is earlier than 1st January 1968, may hold savings at the prescribed date in any form of bank account, or with a friendly society or credit union. Moreover, savings at earlier savings dates may be held in any other bona fide form of saving. This is of course in addition to savings in the forms acceptable from 1st January next. In the case of a widowed person whose prescribed date is on or after 1st January 1968, savings held in any form of bank account, or with a friendly society or credit union, or in any other bona fide form will be acceptable in these forms up to 31st December 1967. However, to be acceptable after 31st December 1967 any such savings must have been converted into one of the forms acceptable at all times under the Act; that is, into a home savings account with a bank, or with a building or housing society. In addition, all new acceptable savings made on and after 1st January 1968 must be made in one of the forms acceptable at all times. Like others, widowed persons will be required to show that they have saved for at least the three years immediately preceding their prescribed dates. In meeting this requirement, savings held in an acceptable form by the deceased spouse up to the date of death and bequeathed to the widowed person will be acceptable, as also will such savings held in the estate of the deceased spouse for the eventual benefit of the widowed person. As we promised last year, there is provision in this Bill to increase the limit on the value of a home that can attract a grant from $14,000 to $15,000. This new limit will apply in respect of applicants whose prescribed dates are on or after 28th November 1966. Another amendment will benefit many young couples who failed to lodge an application for the grant within the statutory period permitted under the existing legislation, lt will extend the time limit for the lodgment of applications from three months to twelve months, and will authorise acceptance of applications lodged within a further period if this would seem to be justified. Under what may be described as an act of grace, the Government has decided that, if this amendment is accepted by Parliament, all applications that have been lodged later than the permissible time limit will bs accepted. There will be no need for these applicants to lodge a further application. Those who did not submit an application, because they were told or understood their applications would be received too late to be accepted, are invited to do so forthwith. However, as the grant is not only a reward for saving, but is also intended to assist young people as early as practicable in the process of buying or building their own homes, it is important that in future all applications should be lodged as soon as possible and certainly within twelve months of the prescribed date except in very unusual circumstances. Under the existing Act the Department has no authority to pay a grant to the surviving partner of a marriage where one partner dies after the prescribed date but before determination of an application. The amending Bill will give us this authority. The existing Act requires i:he land on which the home is built to be held in one of the approved forms exclusively by one or both of the married couple. This creates a problem where the applicant builds a house on farm land owned jointly or as tenant-in-common with a parent or other close relative. To meet cases such as these, the Bill will empower my Department to accept an interest in the land held jointly by an eligible person and a person other than his or her spouse. The eligible person will however be required to have exclusive right of occupancy of a home on the land. For reasons that I think are obvious, this amendment will not extend to cases where a single residence is purchased jointly by two couples for occupation by both. Neither of a couple may be paid a grant if either has owned another dwelling during their marriage, even though they have never occupied it or regarded it as their matrimonial home. Persons who purchase homes in their own names for their aged parents, owners of sub-standard homes, beneficiaries who are bequeathed unsuitable homes and persons who are temporary owners of dwellings in the normal course of their business may therefore all be ineligible. The amending Bill will empower my Department to disregard ownership of another dwelling house' if it would be unreasonable to regard that house as the matrimonial home or as suitable for this purpose. Where the effective date of a contract is not the day on which the applicant signs it, he may be mistaken as to the correct day on which his prescribed date falls. He may obtain savings certificates from a bank or building society in respect of a date that may be a few days before or after his prescribed date. Solely to avoid the inconvenience caused to applicants and savings institutions in having new certificates prepared, it is proposed to allow some flexibility in this respect. This will not alter the determination of the prescribed date, and eligibility for a grant will continue to be determined by reference to this date. Another discretionary power will permit my Department to ignore a brief hiatus in a person's savings period where, for example, savings may be held in cash or otherwise whilst being transferred from one acceptable form to another. All these new discretionary powers that I have mentioned may be exercised in respect of applications from persons with prescribed dates on or after the date of commencement of the scheme, namely, 2nd December 1963. Provided certain conditions are met, a further proposed amendment will make both a husband and wife eligible for the grant even though neither has held acceptable savings in his or her name throughout the full period of the three years before their prescribed date. The conditions are that each has held acceptable savings in his and her name during part of the minimum savings period, that when these savings are aggregated the husband and wife as a couple would have held acceptable savings throughout this period and that both are under thirty-six years of age and are eligible in all other respects. In other words, we propose to ease the requirements so as to permit payment of the grant to a couple who are now both ineligible because neither has held acceptable savings in his or her name throughout the minimum three-year period although together they have done so. Moreover, where both the husband and the wife hold acceptable savings at the prescribed date, but one of them is ineligible solely because he or she has not held acceptable savings in his or her name for the full three-year period, that partner will now become eligible for the grant, and the grant payable to the couple may thereby be increased. These liberalised provisions will apply to persons whose prescribed dates are on or after 1st May 1967. Further amendments will change the definition of the amount of acceptable savings in a savings year. At present there is a limit of $500 on the annual savings made by an eligible person that may attract the grant. This limit was set to encourage continuous saving over a period of at least three years. As the minimum savings period is three years and as $1,500 must be saved to qualify for the maximum grant, the annual limit of $500 is exactly one-third of this. Persons who save $1,500 over three years seldom, if ever, save exactly $500 each year. They are naturally disappointed when annual savings of more than $500 are disallowed. We have decided to ease this provision, and the Bill proposes that the limit on the acceptable savings of an individual in a savings year be raised from $500 to $600. The minimum total savings required to receive the maximum grant will remain unchanged at $1,500. This amendment will apply to all applicants in respect of savings years commencing on or after 1st May 1966. For simplicity of administration, an amendment will provide that the annual limit on savings will apply only throughout the period of the three years immediately preceding the prescribed date instead of the seven preceding years as at present. This will mean that savings, regardless of amount, held in an acceptable form at the start of the third year prior to the prescribed date will qualify. In future, applicants will need to supply detailed information of their savings only in respect of their final three savings years. This will greatly simplify the application form. This amendment will apply from the date of assent to the amending legislation. Under the existing Act, a husband and wife may each have acceptable savings of $500 in any of their savings years. As I said earlier, we now propose that the limit on acceptable individual savings in a year be raised from $500 to $600. lt would, however, be contrary to the aim of encouraging regular and relatively even saving over a minimum period of three years if the husband and wife were both permitted to have acceptable savings of $600 in one year, or, in other words, to save in a year $1,200 of the $1,500 on which the maximum grant is payable. Moreover, now that we are proposing that, in certain circumstances, the savings of a husband and wife may be treated as joint savings, this is also a good reason why the new liberalised limit of $600 for annual savings should apply to the total savings of the husband and the wife. An amendment will provide that the limit on the total acceptable savings of a husband and wife in any savings year shall be $600, and that this will apply to the savings of all applicants in savings years commencing on or after 1st May 1966. Other amendments will provide that the minimum grant payable shall be $10, and that moneys deposited in a savings bank account or on fixed deposit with a trading bank shall be acceptable savings if the account, as an alternative to being designated as a home savings account, has been designated with a form of words having an implied meaning similar to 'home savings account'. The present Commonwealth and State Housing Agreement, which began to operate from 1st July last, permits the allocation of some Home Builders Account moneys to an approved State government lending institution for lending to private home seekers in rural areas not served by building societies. In States where there is not a State bank, approval may be sought to make such loans through the State housing authority. However, the Act does not permit a grant to be made in respect of a home if there are Agreement moneys owing to a State housing authority in respect of the house. The Bill contains an amendment to give effect to the original intention that homes acquired with the assistance of a loan of Home Builders Account moneys shall be eligible for the purposes of the scheme. Honourable senators will be interested to know that work is proceeding on a revision of the booklet 'A Grant for Your Home' to include the amendments now submitted for consideration by the Parliament. It will be reprinted and distributed as soon as possible after the legislation receives the royal assent. The introduction of this Bill demonstrates the Government's continuing desire to offer maximum reasonable assistance to young people who are making strenuous efforts to save to acquire their own homes. The proposed amendments should assist a considerable number of deserving applicants to satisfy the basic requirements of the scheme. I commend the Bill to honourable senators. Debate (on motion by Senator Cavanagh) adjourned. 1235 bill 1235 Debate resumed from 4 May (vide page 1 1 63), on motion by Senator Henty: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1235 KBC Western Australia 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator WILLESEE - The purpose of this Bill is, to set up an Australian Tourist Commission, it is an original Bill, not an amending one. It gained the support of both sides of the House of Representatives. We members of the Australian Labor Party offer no opposition to the establishment of this Commission, which will consist of five voting members and two non-voting members. It is interesting to note that it will be administered by the Department of Trade and Industry. Figures that have been supplied show thai last year tourism meant $65m to Australian trade. The forecast is that that figure will rise to $120m by 1970 and $208m by 1975. That increase will be brought about by an expected increase to 607,000 in the number of visitors to Australia. Tourism is a two way trade. Many Australians go overseas and spend money there. At the moment the balance of trade, as it were, is against us. This Bill represents an effort to reach the break even point and then to reverse the balance in our favour. So far the Government, on behalf of the taxpayers, has spent $5m on grants to the Australian National Travel Association which has been the forerunner of the Australian Tourist Commission and the instigator of this Bill. On reading the second reading speech made by the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) and looking at the Bill, I wondered about a few matters. The Government Ls unable to forecast what amount will be spent. Listening to Senator Henty, I wondered what the future grants would be. He pointed out that because this matter is in such a fluid state the Government is unable to say what they will be. Undoubtedly future budgets will show what they will be. The Minister mentioned that the people who have surveyed this field have set an estimate of 607,000 visitors in 1975, bringing with them $208m. The estimate is set on four points, three of which are related to improved transport in Australia. This indicates that we are not completely satisfied with the present transport. Although the Commission is to work with travel agents, transport authorities and other people who are already in the field, I note that it will act as a public relations agent; that is to say, it will send out literature, films and general information, to be distributed throughout the world. The power to assist in this field has already been dealt with, although I believe that Senator Henty said that this was only a minor part of the duties of the Commission. Nevertheless, he went into detail and explained that the Commission envisaged setting up its own travel agencies in various parts of the world not already covered by private people in this line of business. The Minister did not use the expression 'travel agencies' hut 1 took him to mean travel agencies. He made it clear, also, that although the Commission would bridge this gap in the areas where no promotional work or travel agencies had been established, when someone else wanted to move into the field, it would move out and let the others take over. It seems that this is one of 'those slight bits of Socialism. The Commission will move in to the point where the operation 'becomes profitable and then it will move out. I thought the Minister made this abundantly clear. Although this is an important part of trade - and one has only to look at other places in the world to see how important tourism is in the field of trade - it goes much further than mere trade. From tourism arises the image of Australia that is projected in other countries, and it would be impossible to think that 607,000 people in future would travel through this country and not go back to their homelands with some definite ideas of what Australia and Australians are like. Therefore, it is up to this Commission to make sure that our visitors go back as advocates, and not devil's advocates, for Australia. People who visit this country will publicise Australia much more than any pamphlet, film or lecture by someone in an embassy overseas; indeed, they will do much more than could be done by members or servants of the Commission. The personal recommendations of people who return to their homelands after visiting this country will be the greatest form of advertising. I do not seek to lecture the Commission or to do what was done in another place. I am sure that during this debate some honourable senators will enumerate the tourist attractions of Australia; undoubtedly we shall hear about the Great Barrier Reef and the northern areas. I feel for the Commission when 1 say that the importance of a good start is an overwhelming consideration. The Leader of the Government referred to three suggestions for improvement, especially in the field of transport. I completely understand this, for if we are to get off the beaten track and have tourists travelling to our northern areas, we must realise that they will not want to be travelling up the north coast of Queensland or Western Australia in overcrowded, outdated small aircraft. People who travel north along these coasts will want to get not only into a town but also out of it within a reasonable time, and certainly when they want to get out. These are some of the problems that will have to be handled fairly quickly. Obviously the Commission will not have dictatorial powers; yet it will need to have great powers of persuasion if it is to get the two main airline operators to do something over and above what they would want to do in the normal pursuit of trade. One of the suggestions made in another place deals with a baggage allowance. This is something that could be taken into consideration by the Commission, which could sell it to other people. This would be a tremendous start, for it deals with problems associated with travelling long distances. If an American decides to go for a holiday - or a vacation, as the Americans call it - he might go to Canada for a week or two. Then comes the problem of carrying extra clothes, especially if a woman is in the party; she will worry about the changes of weather, different kinds of hats, shoes and so on. People who have travelled have heard the maxim: If in doubt about an article of clothing, you do not want it. The chances are that the weather will not get hot or cold; it will not rain; whatever you are worrying about will not happen. But obviously this is a problem that will confront passengers who are travelling great distances to Australia. They have this problem even when they are travelling to Europe, Canada and the other places that have become tourist magnets over the years. We have vastly different problems when it comes to providing for travellers to this country. I am sure that hotel accommodation will be mentioned by some honourable senators. 1 notice that the fly problem has already been mentioned in another place; I believe a Western Australian member mentioned it, but I doubt whether the Queenslanders will concede the heavyweight belt to us in this respect. We do not want people going away from this country saying: 'If there is one thing I remember about Australia it is the flies'. This reminds me of a story that an honourable senator told me about the visit of his child to Canberra. After giving the boy the full treatment and showing him everything here, including all the glories and beauties of Canberra, when the boy went back to school and his teacher asked him what was the most impressive thing he saw, he replied that, without doubt, the Canberra blowflies would remain longest in his memory. That is the type of thing that an honourable member in another place had in mind when he mentioned this matter. Impressions are built on small experiences. How often does one hear people who have visited countries overseas relate at length some little incident that has caused them to leave the country they visited with a certain image of the people there? We must remember that it is not all as golden as it might seem when it comes to attracting great numbers of people. Tourism and tourists can be ugly words. How often have we heard people say: 'I am not going there; it is the tourist season, and I do not want to go running into all the trappings that go with tourists'? Above all, we must remember that not all tourists are millionaires, and that we have to cater for vastly greater numbers of tourist class than some countries did a few years back. We have a tremendous advantage in this country, for we are just coming into the market, and thus have an opportunity to study the tourism experiences of countries not only in Europe and Canada but also in Asia, which over the past few years has been coming more into calculations. We have an opportunity to examine what they have done, to assess their mistakes and to make sure that we do not repeat them. I hope that our beauty spots, and even some of our cities, are not dressed up in a lot of tinsel in order to get great numbers of millionaires to go there; indeed, 1 hope that our beauty spots will not be crowded out. 1 understand that in some countries one has to pay to go on to the beaches. If there is one thing Australia has it is great beaches, spread over tremendous distances. We have wonderful beaches in Queensland, in Western Australia, and all round the Australian coast - not only at Bondi and a few of the other places that we read about. Beaches are just one of the gifts that nature has given to the healthy, sun-loving Australian people, and we must avoid dressing some of them in tinsel and all these other things, in the hope that in future a charge will be made to visit them. We can benefit from the mistakes of other countries. Not everyone wants to be a kibitzer, which is the Americans' term for a stickybeak, or as we call a person who stays for just a few hours to look at a place. People v/ho have travelled a bit have a great desire to get away and settle down for a few months. That is where our beach resorts and to a lesser extent, or to another extent - perhaps I should not give priorities - our mountain resorts can play a very great part, so that visitors will not race through the country. We give this Bill our entire blessing. We wish the Commission all the success in the world. I do not want to lecture it. I am sure that its members will take the remarks that are made in both Houses of the Parliament in the spirit in which they are offered. The Commission will have to do a tremendous job. Not only will it have to attract tourists to Australia - a good start must be made - but also it must make sure that the visitors leave this country contented and happy. The Commission will have to face up to the four points mentioned by Senator Henty in relation to cheaper and better transport. Because of our vast distances we must offer the tourist more leisurely forms of transport - hire cars, caravanettes and that type of thing. Undoubtedly we have something unique to sell to the world. It looks to me as if we are starting along the right lines to sell it. The Commission will have the dual function of bringing people to the country and making sure that they leave contented. No doubt we have a great heritage. We want to be able to sell this to the world, without making mistakes that other countries have made and without damaging the natural resources that we have. There is the advantage that, by developing these attractions within Australia, we will encourage greater travel within the country by our own people. Australians are great travellers. I do not know to what extent we shall persuade people who plan to go overseas to reconsider their itinerary but if we make travel within our own country much more comfortable and convenient for them we shall be building up the tourist trade. The Opposition wishes the Bill well. It welcomes the remarks that have been made and it wishes the Commission very great success. Undoubtedly, as forecast by the Minister, it will consist of able men who will be devoted to this very peculiar and modern form of trade and the fostering of good public relations for the Australian nation. 1238 KV9 Queensland 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - It is very pleasing to know that the Opposition in the Senate as well as in the other place gives its blessing to this Bill, which I believe is an extremely good one. I propose to open my comments by reading a few lines of the preface of the report by Harris, Kerr, Forster and Co. - known as the HKF report - which deals with the Australian travel and tourist industry. This preface was written by Mr Bates, Chairman of the Australian National Travel Association. It reads: This report ... is the first comprehensive survey of the travel and tourism industry to be carried out in Australia and probably the most detailed of its kind to be done for any country. Commissioned in 1964 by the Australian National Travel Association ... it had as its general object the provision of an authoritative assessment of, and guidelines for, the development of travel and tourism in this country. I think this is a suitable introduction to the comments that I want to make. The members of this team travelled some 25,000 unduplicated miles in Australia. They viewed and reported as experts on practically every tourist attraction. They made many expert recommendations - many more, of course, than were mentioned by the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) in introducing the Bill. Indeed, right through this report arc recommendations in respect of various spheres. I do nol propose to repeat the recommendations. Indeed, 1 do not propose to touch on any of the specific tourist areas in Australia, because it would only be to repeat what has been published in this book, and published possibly in a more unbiased way than we who are Australians would be able to do ourselves. For my purposes I propose to address myself to the Bill itself and to inquire whether the machinery which is being set up is in fact adequate. This Bill does not deal with any internal tourism. It is a Bill for an Act to establish an Australian Tourist Commission for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia, and travel in Australia, by people from other countries. The whole purpose of this piece of machinery is not to do those things that many of us may feel should be done in Australia but rather to take the steps that are necessary to bring tourists to Australia, lt is that background that 1 wish to develop. Here 1 should like to mention that I have had some knowledge of the development of the tourist industry because I was Minister in charge of the tourist industry in Queensland for quite a number of years. I have studied the subject intensively for a long time. The first point 1 want to make is that the industry has mushroomed enormously over the past decade. This is so in most States, if not in all. I know that it has done so in practically every State. This is because of the activity internally of many groups. I shall detail them in a few moments. Here I am not blowing the trumpet of Queensland vis-a-vis other States, because I have not detailed statements of their development but I think it could be taken broadly that they have developed as Queensland has. I am now dealing entirely with the internal development. The Queensland Government Tourist Bureau has increased its takings from its various agencies by thirty times in the last ten years, which is a fantastic development as I think everybody will agree. In Brisbane ten years ago there were no motels. In 1962 there were twelve. Today there are twenty-six, all of which provide first class accommodation. The same applies in the broad to Queensland generally. There were three first class and thirteen other motels ten years ago. In 1960 the number of first class motels had grown to 106, and today there are 420. Evidence of the hug; internal growth of the tourist industry is to be found in the money that has been spent by the Government and other people on its development. For example, in Queensland in the financial year 1955-56 an amount of $208,000 was spent by the Government, of which $12,000 was on advertising. These amounts increased in 1958-59 to $390,000 and $36,000 respectively. In the case of expenditure on advertising, three times as much was spent in 1958-59 as in 1955-56. In 1961-62 expenditure had increased to $580,000, including $56,000 on advertising, and in the last financial year for which I have figures the expenditure was $715,000, of which $120,000 was on advertising. That trend has been reflected in nearly every State and for that reason the tourist industry internally has grown enormously. Before looking at the machinery of the Bill I think we must examine why tourism has grown and why it obviously will continue to grow. The first thing we must recognise is that the industry is made up of many thousands of people who are tremendously enthusiastic about it. I do not think there is any industry which has engendered more enthusiasm in the people engaged in it. Such enthusiasm is probably one of the industry's most prominent characteristics. For that reason I was delighted when I learned that Mr Chipp had been appointed MinisterinCharge of Tourist Activities. Not only is he a man of great enthusiasm and dynamic drive, he is also an outstandingly good organiser and administrator. However, I have been somewhat disillusioned to discover that he has little administrative responsibility in regard to the tourist industry because such responsibility lies with senior Ministers, the Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr McEwen) and, in his absence, the Minister for Social Services (Mr Sinclair). Please let me not be misunderstood. I am not denigrating either the Minister for Trade and Industry or the Minister for Social Services, who are extremely able men; but I feel that ministerial responsibility in relation to the tourist industry should not be divided. I would have been infinitely more satisfied with the machinery of the Bill had Mr Chipp been responsible directly to Cabinet and, through Cabinet, to the Parliament. I say that in all friendliness to the other Ministers I have mentioned. I believe that direct contact with Cabinet would have been infinitely better than the present set-up. The tourist industry is mads up of several correlated segments which I shall mention briefly. Firstly, there are the individual resort proprietors. Probably I know most of those in Queensland. They have poured their money into their resorts year after year, almost decade after decade, to make their resorts increasingly better instead of sitting back and taking things easy on their profits. They have put their profits back into their resorts. This is due to their enthusiasm for their industry. Secondly, these individual resort proprietors are associated in what can be broadly described as district groups. If the leaders of the district groups are enthusiastic for this industry they can do a tremendous amount to help it. I can do no better than mention my friend, Senator Wood, as a classic example of an industry district leader encouraging his associates in the industry. The honourable senator is not in the chamber at the moment, but I still want to make these comments. All of us in Queensland know that the great boom in the tourist industry in the north commenced in the Whitsunday area, which is based on Mackay, and in the south on the Gold Coast. I think everyone in the Mackay area would agree wilh me that the tourist industry there has mads such rapid and constant progress largely because of the activities of Senator Wood. Above the district groups within a State - I am speaking now of every State, not only of my own State of Queensland - are the State Government tourist authorities. If they are enthusiastic they can do a tremendous amount to help. Conversely, if they are apathetic they can and do retard the development of the industry within their particular State. I have met ministers of tourism many times. Indeed, I am proud to say that at my instigation the Tourist Ministers Council was formed. I suggested to Mr Cahill, the then Premier of New South Wales, that it would be desirable for all ministers associated with tourism to meet and discuss their problems. He was most helpful. We met a couple of months later but the meeting was very poorly attended. However, we persisted and at our next meeting every State was represented. More importantly, Western Australia and South Australia were represented by their Premiers, Victoria was represented by a very senior Minister, Tasmania by a Minister whose seniority I cannot just recall and New South Wales by the late Gus Kelly. Although Mr Kelly and I may have disagreed politically, at least we did not disagree on tourism, because he was one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the industry in Australia. This Council has developed wonderfully and has made a great contribution to the development of the industry within Australia, especially because the heads of the departments concerned with tourism are always present. In fact they have a meeting of their own on the day before the Ministers meet and this lends co-operation. 1 have mentioned the resort proprietors. Then there are the air, road and sea carriers and the private travel agents. However, the body which has been of vital importance since the late 1920s in the growth of the industry and in the general co-operation which now exists between all facets of the industry is the Australian National Travel Association, known as ANTA. In the last decade, the period for which I have known it. the organisation has done fantastic work. It has been headed by men of outstanding ability in the persons of Mr John Bates and, in latter years. Mr Basil Atkinson. As Chairman and General Manager respectively of the Association they have done wonderful work-. I do not think it would be possible to find two people who have the personality to do more than they have done. They have encouraged all the co-operating but sometimes conflicting interests of the various States into a coordinated effort. Lest I forget it, 1 say now that 1 believe - this is only my personal view - that no two men would be better fitted to fill the respective positions of chairman and general manager of the commission which is being set up than Mr John Bates and Mr Basil Atkinson. That is not my province, but having been a Minister associated with tourist activities for so long I would be failing in my duty if I did not pay to those two gentlemen the compliment they so justly have earned. As I. have mentioned, the tourist industry internally has grown considerably. People have travelled intrastate and interstate, and, of later years, it has grown internationally. Much of the work in publicising Australia as a venue for the overseas tourist has been done by the Australian National Travel Association. Indeed, this has been its major field other than the co-ordination of people within Australia itself. As I visualise it, this Commission which is being set up will in fact more or less replace the existing organisation known as 'ANTA'. 1 said a little while ago that this very valuable HKF report incorporates many recommendations. It makes certain recommendations so far as Australia internally is concerned. Senator Willesee referred to these things. But its overriding recommendation was that an organisation should be set up to look after the sales of travel in overseas countries. That is its. main purpose. As I read the Bill in conjunction with this report, I find certain points that I would like to raise both now and possibly later when we are discussing the Bill in committee. First of all, we note that there are to be five members of this Commission who are to be voting members and two additional members who will be non-voting members. The Bill sets out quite clearly that of the five voting members two shall be from an organisation, and it is indicated that that organisation will be the ANTA. Here, of course, I am only assuming, from reading the Minister's speech, and from reading the Bill itself. But if it is to be the ANTA, then I shall be highly delighted. I do not think we could get two people from any other organisation more able to do this job. Then there is to be one officer from, I assume, the Department of Trade and Industry. That is clear-cut. Those three are more or less set out clearly. But then there are two others to be added to the voting members of the Commission, and these are not set out quite as clearly. Perhaps this is a very wise precaution in a Bill of this nature. I know that if I were Minister, having got my first three men, one chairman - earlier I indicated whom I thought was the most outstanding man to serve in this office - and two members from the ANTA, I would then look at the balance and say: 'Here is a section of industry not at all covered and here is another section of industry not at all covered,' and from those two sections I would select the other two to make up the five voting members. I hope this will be done, and I assume that it will be done. However, there are two more to be appointed who will not be voting members. They are to be appointed by the State Ministers' Council. This, too, is a very good thing. Some may quarrel with the fact that these two are to be non-voting members. I do not. I think this is desirable because the whole task of the Commission is to deal with selling outside Australia. This is set out specifically in the Bill and in the Minister's speech. The Commission will not go to Queensland and say: 'Your transport is bad and your facilities are bad. You must improve them.' That is left to the States themselves. As this is the case, I feel that the constitution of the Commission is entirely satisfactory. 1 was left in some doubt by one or two comments that were made by the Minister in his speech. He said: The remaining members of the Commission both voting and non-voting will be paid on a part-time basis. Then he goes on: Any officers of the Commonwealth Public Service being appointed ex officio. . . . This was something that aroused my interest because, a little earlier in his speech, the Minister referred to work that had been done on ANTA by other officers. I think he spoke of officers of the Prime Minister's Department, officers of the News and Information Bureau of the Department of the Interior and officers of the Department of Trade and Industry. I feared at first that these may have been in the mind of the Minister as the additional members of the Commission. I do not fear that any more as I read and study the Bill more carefully. I do not wish to develop this any further at this stage. Rather will I do so in committee when I can deal with it perhaps more precisely than I can deal with it at the present time. The next point I want to raise is that, having viewed for ten years the work of the ANTA, I recognise that with the formation of this new Commission to take over the task of the international selling of tourism obviously the ANTA will not be doing it in competition and the very highly qualified officers that ANTA have recruited and trained will, I should imagine, become officers of the new Commission. So the administrative or sales work of ANTA will cease with the formation of the Commission. One thing I most devoutly hope is that the organisation that we know as ANTA will not go out of existence. I must repeat here what I have said before. This is the only organisation in Australia which has succeeded in knitting together into a splendid pattern every interest in the tourist industry from resort proprietors to carriers and governments. If this work were to suddenly cease and ANTA were to go out of business, 1, for one, would be an extremely disappointed person. I repeat that it will be going out of business, if I may use that term, in selling, but thai it should remain as a co-ordinating body, to me. is of outstanding importance. There are two or three other points [ want to make, but perhaps it would be best if I referred to one which is contained in the HKF report. I said earlier that this report contained dozens of recommendations. There is one which I consider is vital. It is that some assistance should be given in some way or other to the people who are providing accommodation at various resorts. I think probably Senator Wood would know a lot more about this than I do and possibly he may develop it. I will do no more than indicate that in my view this is a matter of vital importance. If I were asked to express my own view as to how they could best be helped, I would say that they should be given similar taxation assistance to that which is given to primary industry. I refer most particularly to the depreciation arrangements that are made. Having said that, 1 leave Hie matter not because I do not think it is very important - I repeat that I think it is of outstanding importance - but because we must keep on providing better accommodation buildings and better first class accommodation generally if we are to satisfy those overseas visitors whom the Commission is being set up to attract. 1 do not see things in quite the same way as Senator Willesee does with reference to moving into areas where other organisations do not exist. He may be quite right, but 1 do not think he is. Throughout America there are thousands of tourist agents. What the Commission will hope to do, I think, is to move into those areas and distribute what we know in the travel industry as travel manuals. A busy travel agent might receive an inquiry, as most travel agents do from people who come in and say: 'We have been to Europe. We have been to so and so. We want to go somewhere else. Can you give us any advice as to where to go?' The travel agent merely takes our the manual and says: 'Yes, here you are. Why do you not go to Australia?'. He is able to show them the brochures which set out exactly the various trips to Australia, the cost of those trips, what type of accommodation would be available, what attractions are in Australia, and all that sort of thing. I think that this is a way in which ANTA itself will work. The agency in Australia that first introduced travel manuals of this nature and distributed them to American travel agents was my own department in Queensland. We supplied these travel manuals to American travel agents. Believe me, although it cost us a few hundred pounds to distribute these manuals to American travel agents, we were fortunate, as a result of our manuals, in getting thousands of American tourists to our shores. This work in the broader fashion would be done by ANTA. Having been associated with this work for a long time, I could say a great deal more, but I do not think it is desirable that one should speak too long on a subject such as this. I strongly commend the Bill. 1 hope that the Commission in the purpose on which it will set out - that is, the purpose of selling Australia overseas - will attract to its ranks the very best men that we have in Australia. 1 make no bones about repeating that the best as far as I can see in Australia for this purpose are those who have so wonderfully served ANTA in the same sphere in the past. I have expressed my regrets at the channels through which ministerial activity must proceed. Notwithstanding all this, I still have the hope that the Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr McEwen) will recognise the outstanding ability of his assistant, the Minister for the Navy (Mr Chipp) and that in fact the work, decisions and administrative arrangements will be made by the Minister foi the Navy who is the Minister in Charge of Tourist Activities and who, I am sure, will obtain for Australia the overseas tourists in the numbers that have been predicted. I wish to mention one more point that I nearly forgot. One of the great disadvantages of travel to Australia from America is that up to the present the big problem has been that many tourists have to retrace their steps. If they come from America, they call at Hawaii, usually come to Sydney and travel up to the Great Barrier Reef. That is the first time I have mentioned it, Senator Willesee. 1242 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - The honourable senator disappoints me. 1242 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - Or, the tourist goes west to that most beautiful area in the south west part of Western Australia. One will not find anything better in the world. Whether one travels from Perth to Hie top of Cape York Peninsula, it is all beautiful but none of it is better, I concede, than what is to be found in Western Australia. However, the tourists who come from America have to retrace their steps by flying over the same route on their way home. For years I have advocated a north-about route. 1 am very delighted to see that it is now being put into practice. By this route, our visitors from America can leave their country, visit Honolulu and Hawaii, possibly see the islands of the South Pacific and then arrive in Australia. They travel north and see the beauties there. Having done that, they travel on through New Guinea and from New Guinea up to Hong Kong, Japan and back to America. This is a circuit route and is what I have always called the north-about route. It would provide the facilities for tourists if they wished not to retrace their steps to any great degree. I believe that this route will bring a great deal more business to Australia than we would get otherwise. If these comments of mine - I am modest enough not to expect it - are read by any members of the Commission, I hope that they will bear my recommendations in mind. I strongly commend the Bill. 1242 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - Mr Deputy President, I think all speakers on this Bill have approached the subject in a very sober fashion. I consider that this is because of the maturity that has developed in relation to the tourist industry in Australia. AsI listened to the various speakers, I thought that quite apart from the influx of overseas visitors an influencing factor in the field of tourism has been the post-war industrial gains.I have in mind such things as long service leave which is obtained now by people at an earlier age and which is appreciated. These industrial gains have injected a considerable amount of purchasing power into the tourist industry as a base over and above the benefits that have come from the overseas visitors. As to the functions of the Australian Tourist Commission, I think that we agree in general terms with what has been suggested. But I have one or two reservations regarding matters that I think the Commission will need to watch closely. If we study the situation in the United States of America, we will find that the point of no return has been reached in some cases because some of the massive motel chains have begun to get somewhat overaggressive. They have begun to feel as General Motors-Holden's does at times and adopted the view that is what is good for them is good for the community at large. 1 respectfully suggest that this is a phase that will have to be watched. I was prompted to make that remark when I was reading a debate in the Legislative Council for the Northern Territory. Controversy arose about the toilet facilities provided by Connellan Airways Limited for visitors to Ayers Rock. The increased patronage that this industry was receiving was quoted and it seemed to me that all anybody was concerned about was obtaining some additional service from the Department of Civil Aviation. The point that I make is this: This was expected. The Bill refers to a form of mutual aid with something being provided by the Commission and something being provided by the travel interests concerned, but we all know that while some of those concerned will always show a progressive line others involved may need to be stirred occasionally to maintain particular standards. A number of us are aware of the values which will accrue from increased tourist trade. Many of us know that it was only after a number of Australians went on working holidays and saw the saner drinking laws in Europe that these laws were gradually enacted here. The overseas visitor has certainly provided better hope for Australia's wine industry. Sitting suspended from 6 to 8 p.m. 1243 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I seek leave to continue my remarks at a later date. Leave granted; debate adjourned. 1243 bill 1243 Debate resumed from 4 May (vide page 1185). on motion by Senator McKellar: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1243 K1T Queensland 0 0 BENN, Archibald Senator BENN - Mr President,when the debate was adjourned on Thursday of last week I had dealt with a number of aspects of the dairy industry. AsI proceed this evening I shall pick up the thread of the remarks that I made last week. I have received from Mr L. A. Lehmann, who is Chairman of the Federal Dairying Committee of the Australian Primary Producers Union, particulars of a five year plan for the dairy industry. Mr Lehmann and the members of his Committee have spent a good deal of time preparing this plan for the rehabilitation of the industry. I do not profess to have as intimate a knowledge of the industry as they have. However, I have examined the various proposals embodied in the plan that the members of the Committee consider would relieve the industry of its financial stress. The APPU, in this plan, recommends that long term loans at low interest rates be made available in order to raise annual production to 8,000 lb of butter fat. The description of the plan, referring to the report of the Dairy Industry Committee of Inquiry, stated: The APPU takes the view that the limit of 8,000 lb, which may have been appropriate when the report was completed, is now too low, and suggests that 10,000 lb would be a more suitable figure. It added: To be eligible for a loan, a farm must comply with the following conditions: Possess a minimum of 20 dairy cows (ex cluding heifers, bulls and calves as at 1st July 1967). At least 50% of the gross income (including off farm income) had been derived from the sale of milk, milk products and/or butter fat in each of the three years prior to 1st July 1967. The farm must be capable of producing 10,000 lb of butter fat per annum and the farmer must be prepared to follow approved farm management practices. It may be appropriate to grant to farmers throughout the Commonwealth who satisfy those conditions loans to enable them to improve their farms and their dairy herds. Mr Lehmann classifies dairy farms in four groups. I do not propose to discuss them in particular. Some of them would require assistance. As I asked early in my speech: Why is it that at this stage of our development it is necessary for us to approve an annual bounty totalling $27m? If we examine the situation of the industry from beginning to end and acquaint ourselves fully with the history of the industry from its beginnings, we arrive at the conclusion that it is entitled to some form of national relief. If the figure of$27m is arrived at one can only conclude that that may be the correct level of bounty. However, it could be insufficient. Indeed, judging by what I see as I travel about certain dairying districts of Queensland, I would say that it is insufficient. We speak of bounties. There is no sin on the part of the Commonwealth Government in paying bounties or subsidies. Last financial year the Commonwealth paid various bounties totalling $124,200,000. This financial year it proposes to pay a total of $142m in bounties. The petroleum search subsidy will total$1 6m. The superphosphate bounty will cause the Government to pay out $28m. The sum of $4,750,000 has to be found to meet the bounty on nitrogenous fertilisers. The dairy industry is a great industry on which many thousands of families depend for a living and for their future. They depend on the income from it to educate their children, for example. A bounty of $27m distributed among them all means little per head. This is especially striking when one considers that it represents a gilt edged investment for the Commonwealth. The dairy industry has been and is being helped in various ways. The Department of Primary Industries in Queensland is engaged on many projects that are designed to advance the prosperity of the industry. Its work in this field is constant. It has undertaken projects in the following fields: investigation of mat grass infested pastures; the disease leptospirosis; dairy husbandry practices investigations; dairy pasture improve ment; and the effect of strategic supplementary feeding on production and reproduction. That department has set itself the task of undertaking projects in these fields and is fully discharging its obligations to dairy farmers. If we look to see whether the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation is doing anything about pastures in a general way and particularly in relation to the dairy industry, we find that over a number of years it has been playing its part actively. For example, it has investigated the contribution of tropical pasture legumes to soil fertility and animal production. It has also undertaken a breeding programme to produce varieties of lucerne adapted to a much wider range of environments than the existing commercial varieties. The Organisation has established main regional experiment centres in various parts of Queensland. Some are in the subtropical, humid coastal lands at places such as Beerwah, Howard, North Deep Creek, and Kin Kin. Queensland has large tracts of spear grass, somewhat like the Northern Territory. Investigations in this connection are being carried out in regions such as Rodd's Bay, Westwood, Brian Pastures, Eskdale West, and in brigalow regions, such as Nunbank and in other places as well. Of course, there is a tropical wet coastal region, and that does not escape attention, either. This work is being carried out constantly and some reward must be reaped for these endeavours at some time or other. As this work progresses slight improvement occurs which benefits the dairy industry and other grazing industries. So when we consider the assistance that is provided by the Department of Primary Industries in Queensland, what the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation is doing in the scientific field and also what is going out in the form of cash to augment dairy farmers' incomes, one can say that dairy farmers will continue their unwelcome work in the future. I sincerely hope that dairy farmers will be able to carry on and enjoy greater prosperity than they have done in the past. If in the future it is necessary to increase the subsidy that we are considering at the present time, there should not be any hesitation at all on the part of the Commonwealth Government to do so. The real trouble is to get around such a huge area. This industry is not confined to a State or to a district. It is established over the whole of the Commonwealth. It would be very difficult at any time to gauge the prosperity of the dairy industry with any degree of accuracy, but of course records of the undertakings which receive milk and cream would disclose what is going out to them. As I said before, if this subsidy is paid for the benefit of this important industry, then the Australian Labor Party will not hesitate to vote in favour of it. 1245 KAS Victoria 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I rise as one of the final speakers on the Dairying Industry Bill. I have read with pleasure the various speeches that have been made in this chamber and in another place. I believe that in relation to this particular industry, the general discussions that have been advanced show a high level of knowledge of the industry. I believe that the industry will benefit as a result of the discussions that have taken place. Dairying has had its critics inside as well as outside the industry. Those of us who are interested should be anxious to examine the criticisms and, if they are applicable, we should see what can be done to improve the present situation. I believe that the dairying industry which has been established for so many years has demonstrated that it is capable of meeting the challenge that we find in the various comments and that it has sufficient answer to those comments. As I understand the position, there are basically five reasons why financial support is given to this particular industry. They are that reasonable returns should be provided to the industry; that a lower price for the products should be made available to the consumer; that there should be encouragement for greater production of a most nutritious health product; that there should be greater efficiency in production within the industry; and that the products should earn overseas exchange, which is of importance to the industry and to the Government at this particular time. I have noted with interest that during the debates the Opposition has claimed that it introduced the subsidy which resulted in benefits flowing to this particular industry. I think that the record should be put straight. What the Labor Government did when it was in office was to thrust upon the industry - and it thought that, this was the correct principle - an award which the industry was unable to meet at the time. In an endeavour to make the industry capable of paying the high wages which were put upon it at that time, a subsidy was granted. The principle behind the subsidy was that it was a consumer subsidy and that the price to the consumer would not rise as a result of the increased costs that were thrust upon it. I believe that if we look back to the great action of a former member for Gippsland in the Federal Parliament, Mr Paterson, we might find a more real foundation for the scheme as we know it today. If we look at the consumer position today we find that Australians pay less for butter than do people in any country other than New Zealand and the. United Kingdom. This is a fairly good point to advance when we are speaking of the industry's efficiency. We find that the wholesale prices of butter in February 1967 were: Australia 52.08c per lb, Canada 54.58c per lb, Denmark 61.73c per lb, the United States of America 66.88c pet lb and Western Germany 76.54c per lb. This gives a fair indication that the level of production in this industry compares more than favourably with that of countries which have a similar standard of living to Australia. The support which is given to the industry is now an integral part of the industry. The industry's economy is based upon the continuance of this support. I emphasise that the industry generally and the stabilisation plan have been of assistance to the consumer. Those in the industry will agree with me when I say that our home market is the all important one. We can demonstrate that point by the fact that in the last fourteen years while wages have increased by approximately 46.6% and the consumer price index has increased by 39.3%, the price of butter has increased by only 21.5%. This again indicates that the industry is working well within the bounds of what is good for its economy and for its basic home market. I believe that retail prices have shown great stability in movement. I suggest that this industry could challenge most other industries in that field. It will be found that it compares more than favourably - and indeed it has a duty to do so - on a national level. I am anxious to refer to a statement on this particular matter which was submitted by the Victorian Dairy Farmers Association. In the statement the Association emphasises this factor of stability by pointing out that during the period from 1953 to 1965 the recognised dairy farm cost of production, based on surveys and index adjustments carried out by the Bureau of Agricultural Economics, increased by 24.5%, from 4s Id per lb to 5s Id per lb. The cost of production figure as at June 1966 calculated by the Council on the results of the Bureau's surveys, and taking into account the usual imputed costs, was 5s 4d per lb. The consumer price index for the six State capital cities issued by the Commonwealth Statistician showed an increase from 102.1 in the June quarter 1954 to 136.5 in the June quarter 1966. The basic wage increased by 39% to current levels. Dairy farmers therefore have suffered a decline in the real value of their returns. As a further illustration of the stability in butler prices, in 1961 the retail price of butter was 49.1c per lb. In the five years to May 1967 it has risen to 52c per lb. So the price of butter has been most stable. The word 'marginal' has been used to support the argument that dairy farmers are inefficient. If the efficiency of dairy farmers were measured it would be possible to rule a line and say that above that line are the 50% of farmers who are efficient and below it are the farmers who are in all probability inefficient. I doubt that that could be a fair proposition. The same test could be applied to any primary or secondary industry. I doubt that sufficient emphasis has been placed upon the return received from dairy farming for the work load imposed upon dairy farmers. Remembering that at one time dairying was one of the bases of the development of this country, in the early stages when production was for the home market, when the industry undertook gradual increases in dairy herds and pasture improvement and when families in the industry worked so hard, we can justifiably claim that the industry has been most efficient. In turning to study some of the reasons why restrictions have been placed upon dairying I believe it is of interest to refer to the report of August 1960 of the Dairying Industry Committee of Inquiry. It is now somewhat old, but it has been referred to on a number of occasions during this debate. I think it is important to record these facts although maybe some of them are not completely up to date. Nevertheless, they indicate a very interesting position. It is stated at page 127 of the report: The Bureau of Agricultural Economics has recently obtained some information regarding dairy farmers' views on the technical possibilities of using their farms for other types of land use. In the 1956 survey of 126 dairy farmers distributed throughout Australia the survey farmers were asked the following question: 'Are you restricted solely to dairy cattle and pigs?' Exactly half the farmers answered 'Yes' and the other half answered 'No'. The farmers who said that they were restricted to dairying were asked to give the reason why their farms could not be used for other types of land use. The reasons stated by farmers are set out in the following table: One farmer claimed that milk production was too profitable for him to bother with other enterprises. We must give great credit to the Government for one proposition it has taken to its heart and has suggested to the industry. I refer to the proposed amalgamation of small dairy farms. I believe the basis of that proposition is worthy of study, not in respect of greater efficiency within the industry but with a view to producing greater returns for dairy farmers. Figures have been produced to show that the average annual earnings of some dairy farmers amount to $2,000 at present. Many honourable senators would agree that that cannot properly be claimed to be an adequate return. While the wishes of individuals in the industry should be observed I think every honourable senator will agree that the average return to dairy farmers should be increased. The question of increased efficiency In the dairying industry is of national importance. Criticism of the industry has been made to me not only by people engaged in primary industry but also by people engaged in retailing and manufacturing in metropolitan areas, lt is amazing to me that wheat and wool producers should criticise the support given to the dairying industry, though f agree that everyone should be at liberty to criticise. If their criticisms are found to be correct, they should be put to the industry so that it may overcome its problems. I believe that nationally there is general support for our primary and secondary industries. It is interesting to note that every one of our primary industries receives a subsidy, bounty or protection within the economy. It is surprising that dairy farmers appear over a period to have been singled out for attack in this respect. Producers of canned fruits, wheat, wool, wine and vegetable oil seeds are all assisted in some way. Tariff protection is available for all efficient manufacturing industries. The great motor, chemicals and airline industries receive a measure of support. It must certainly be disheartening for dairy farmers to be the subject of attacks when they have a better record than most other producers. Encouragement through pay roll tax credits is available to exporting industries. There is very little criticism of the S28m allocated for that purpose. 1247 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - Exporters have to earn those credits in a hard field. 1247 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - 1 find very little point in that comment. I am saying that protection is given to industries through tariffs and depreciation allowances, and aid is also given through research grants. Shortly every honourable senator will have the opportunity to support the assistance given through research grants to secondary industries. All these protections are actually subsidies maintained by the Australian people. It is very difficult to accept that the dairying industry should be singled out for criticism. I wish to comment now on the volume of support given to one or two industries. I am not aware that this point has been raised in this debate. In 1963-64 the shipbuilding industry received financial support of about $4,700,000. The following year that support was increased to about $5,800,000. 1247 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - The honourable senator should not take it that I am disagreeing with him. 1247 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER -I am anxious to present these figures. In 1966 that support rose to $7,796,000. The petroleum search subsidy increased progressively from $2,700,000 in 1961 to $24,983,000 in 1965. The gold mining subsidy increased from $1,700,000 in 1964-65 to $2,300,000 in 1965-66. We have not heard anything about the raw cotton bounty but it was about Sim in 1963-64, about $2m in the following year and $3,686,000 in 1965-66. Generally the support of these industries is of national importance. 1 ag.xc with it. The national thinking of this Government has been wise. The proposition of supporting industries by maintaining subsidies is at least acceptable. If we are to view the dairy industry as one of great export importance because it earns SI I Om of overseas exchange per annum, it is interesting to note that almost every dairy industry in the world is subsidised or protected. The excellent legislative research section of our Parliamentary Library has prepared for me very detailed information on the policies of a number of countries. In the European Economic Community, which we will be discussing a great deal in future months, the common policy for milk and milk products was introduced in November 1964. It is aimed principally at supporting producer income, lt covers fresh, preserved, concentrated or sweetened milk and cream, butter, cheese and curd, lactose and lactose syrups and certain animal feeding stuffs containing milk or milk products. In the transitional period extending until 1970, member countries are permitted to maintain their national guarantees to farmers. In order to reach the desired target level, market receipts may be supplemented by direct subsidies to producers and by measures for the regulation of the fresh milk market. 1247 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - How much of the Common Market's subsidised production of milk and butter is exported to countries outside the present Common Market area or the proposed Common Market area? 1247 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I cannot give the honourable senator that figure. I am drawing attention to comments in support of my statement that almost every dairy industry in the world is subsidised. An attack has been made on the Australian dairy industry. In the Netherlands a fixed support is paid for all manufacturing milk. In Norway the dairy policy continues to be implemented by means of two-year agreements between the government and the farmer organisations. The main purposes of those agreements are to maintain a level of milk production which meets, even in the low production season, the demand for liquid milk, butter and cheese, and to adjust production to demand and thus to avoid surpluses. In order to achieve those purposes, the government, amongst a variety of other things, subsidises milk prices in order to raise producer prices and to keep prices at an adequate level. United Kingdom dairy policy provides for a guaranteed price related to a standard quantity of milk. In Canada there is a similar proposition, with support of production levels. The United States also has very protective policies. Imports of dairy products into that country are controlled and import quotas are in force for butter, cheese of certain types and varieties, dried milk products, butter oil and other articles with certain exceptions. In addition, quotas are already in force against other countries. Investigation shows that Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Norway, Switzerland, Japan and other countries provide protection and stabilisation for their dairy industries. Senator Ormondemade an interesting comment which I believe the Australian dairy industry should note. It was in relation to the inroads that could be made into the dairy industry by new foods which are being marketed under the guise of being milk foods but which in fact are frozen flavoured water. I believe that these foods should be available to the public. I have noted over the past year or so the disparity between the prices of these frozen water products and milk products. I can see a consumer, not knowing the difference, being a little misled by the label. He will go for the cheaper product. Senator Ormonde's comment about this matter was very timely. I hope that the inroads into the dairy industry will not be so great that consumers will not see that in paying for milk products for children or adults they are buying products with much greater food value than the products that are in competition with milk products today. Comments have been made about the margarine industry. The attitudes of some of the margarine manufacturers and the actions of the management of one company in particular indicate the quality of management that can be found in industry. The margarine industry is not the only one in Australia that has based its advertising on something that is just a little short of the truth. As I recollect the advertising, two important points have had the effect of making inroads into the dairy products industry. Firstly, the advertising of margarine has been related to the question of Australian production. It has been seeking to set one primary industry against another. The question has been asked: Why should not Australians have the opportunity to buy Australian products if they so desire. One margarine manufacturer se* out to prove to the people that it was accepting all the Australian production of edible vegetable oils and could not obtain sufficient for production requirements. It is interesting to note the levels of Australian production of oils available from peanuts, safflower and cottonseed, lt is also interesting to note the growth of this industry. In 1962, 3,084 tons was produced; in 1963, 2,929 tons; in 1964, 3,893 tons; in 1965, 7,242 tons; and in 1966, 7,000 tons. The figures for Australian utilisation of edible vegetable oils were: in 1962, 23,538 tons; in 1963, 28,518 tons; in 1964, 34,163 tons; and in 1965, 36,814 tons, ft was necessary for the Australian industry to import 20,454 tons in 1962, 25,589 tons in 1963, 30,270 tons in 1964 and 29,572 tons in 1965. To summarise, with local production of something less than 20% of the current manufacturing demands, there is terrific scope for the producer to increase production, and for manufacturers to accept it, before we need to be concerned about that particular branch of primary industry not receiving its adequate share of the market. 1248 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Does the honourable senator realise that people are nol cooking in mutton fat only these days - that they are cooking in oil also? 1248 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I know that some parties are being pretty well cooked in oil, but I do not know whether it is margarine or butter. However, what the honourable senator says is correct. The health factor is the other point on which the margarine industry has undoubtedly damaged the butter industry, for many people have in mind that the consumption of butter could have some effect on heart disease. 1249 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - The Country Party sells its butter and eats margarine. 1249 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - It would be interesting if the honourable senator were able to prove his point. I noticed that he did not do so when he spoke during this debate, but perhaps he will have an opportunity at a later stage to prove the truth of his statement; but he knows that it is not true. I have been brought up on milk and I am proud of the fact. I shall now discuss this problem associated with the health hazard, and I shall place on record what was stated in the 'Medical Journal of Australia' of 18th February 1967 in a report on a review of dietary fat and coronary heart disease. The report staled: In recent years there has been intensive research into the relationship between diet and coronary heart disease. The Sub-Committee has considered the results of the: re-search and has reached the following general conclusions: The incidence of coronary heart disease and the severity of the underlying atherosclerotic lesions are related to the serum concentrations of certain lipids notably cholesterol and triglycerides. There is no proof that the relationship is a causal one. Serum cholesterol levels can be reduced by: (a) reduction in dietary saturated fat content; (b) addition of poly-unsaturated fat to the diet: (c) reduction of dietary cholesterol levels; (d) reduction of body weight by caloric restriction. These modifications of dietary fat do not appear to have any detrimental effect on health. The available evidence does not indicate whether or not the severity of atherosclerosis or the risk of coronary heart disease is reduced when serum lipid levels are lowered by changing the diet. The risk of coronary heart disease is above average in persons who are overweight. Excessive body weight can be reduced by caloric restriction. The risk of coronary heart disease appears to be lessened after weight reduction. Last year France consumed twice the amount of butter per head consumed in the United Slates of America, yet on a per capita basis the United States has almost four times more deaths than France from heart disease. I believe that the general level of advertising by the margarine industry has drawn no particular credit to those who have managed that aspect. It leads me to believe either that there is a terrific margin of profit in this industry or that enormous support is coming from beyond our shores for the establishment of the margarine industry. I hope that should this industry prove an efficient manufacture it will enter the export field. I only hope that for Australia's benefit its truth in advertising overseas is a little better than has been demonstrated in past years inside Australia. It can be demonstrated that over a twelve year period there has been a gradual increase in production of dairy products. It is interesting to note that there has been a rise in the yield per cow of approximately 10.7 gallons per annum. In 1953 the yield per cow was 401 gallons per annum; today it is 467 gallons and the annual milk output at the present time about 1,516,000 gallons. It is interesting to note that on page 8 of the 'Statistical Bulletin of the Dairy Industry', volume 29, number 14, the average annual production of whole milk per cow for each State is set out. At the present time South Australia leads the rest of the States, closely followed by Victoria. Then follow Tasmania, the Australian Capital Territory. New South Wales and Queensland in that order. But the general facts are disclosed not so much in that particular report as in the general increase in production per cow. This is not an easy matter to discuss, for things such as the breeding of cows and feeding come into it. These are matters in which the industry has shown great efficiency. I believe that the Government, in holding the bounty at S27m, has not treated the industry fairly, although I put the proposition to the industry that it was in support of the bounty remaining at this figure. If we accept that the S27m is to cover the past five years and the next five years, my calculation is that during that period th; industry will have demonstrated efficiency that will probably result in something like a 25% drop in the value of the subsidy during the period, and that the industry has been able to cope. While in other industries the amount of support is increasing, the dairy industry is held - and is anxious to be held in the interests of efficiency - to a level of support over a ten-year period. 1249 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - What about the marginal farmer? The honourable senator does not talk about him. 1250 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I had something to say about the marginal farmer, in relation to the size of farms. I suggested that some consideration should be given to the amalgamation of farms. The expression 'marginal* in relation to farms and properties is something that I have not heard explained properly here by anyone with any wisdom. Individuals who say that an income of $2,000 per annum is far too low in the dairying industry would find that a dairy farmer receiving $2,000 is probably much better off than an individual getting 25% more than that in some other line of endeavour. I do not know whether we are to be a country which will nominate where a particular person will work. I hope that we do not do this, but it may be the choice of some people to get dairy farmers with low incomes out of the industry. I was about to say that the money saved by the Commonwealth in not increasing the subsidy could go to the industry through other avenues. This could be achieved by several methods. We have seen a considerable increase in the production per head of animals over a short period. This comes about in one or two ways. The benefit that can be achieved in increased quality by the use of artificial insemination is most important. Finance is one of the factors restricting the expansion of this important area of assistance to the industry. I think it will be found that on many dairy farms today - far too many for my liking - there is perhaps a stud bull or any run-of-the-mill bull which is in actual fact only bringing the cows round to their next lactation period. We should be persuading the farmer that for the good of the nation the most important thing that we can do is to increase the production of the cow quickly. I suggest that support to co-operatives that are doing such excellent work in this field should perhaps be given by way of finance from the Commonwealth to the various State governments that are assisting in this matter at present. Greater consideration must be given not only to breeding but also to types of food and food concentrates and to an increase in the use of pasture improvement. I wish to put forward one point which I think will be of great assistance to the industry in the next ten years. I know that here I will meet some argument from the farming community. We are on the brink of great advances in the use of automatic data processing, commonly called ADP. I believe that we will follow the movement in which America is involved at present. Here is a branch of science that we are just commencing to use. Within the dairying industry and within primary production generally we should direct our attention to it. The Federal Government could put somebody into this particular field within primary industry to look into the advantages that can be gained. 1250 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - Does the honourable senator think that the cows could understand it? 1250 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Some cows would and some cows would not. I believe that it must be demonstrated to the farmer that efficiency can be gained by this method. I doubt whether the average farmer - I say average because there are those who are above the average and those who are below - would know accurately day by day the production per cow in his herd. ADP will assist. As the cow reduces production through its lactation period, there comes a time when it ceases to be efficient or economic. Data could be fed by means of computerisation to some central office. By the taking of specimens of milk, as is done today, the fat content of the milk being produced could be determined. By relating this to breeding we could in actual fact increase the efficiency of production per head much quicker than we are doing today. The average farmer today spends a great deal of money in putting on his land manure, superphosphate and nitrogenous and other fertilisers, whatever may be the encouragement for their use today. Applications may be at the rate of 1 cwt, or 96 lb to the acre, or at some other rate, depending on the type of ground in he various paddocks on the property. With the aid of computers we could indicate to him whether the rate should be 20 lb to the acre or 3 cwt to the acre. We could tell him whether he was getting increased production or no effect from the money he was spending. Perhaps the Department of Primary Industry could give a lead in this matter. The other day we heard of the Commonwealth Government spending $4m to add to an already extensive Commonwealth computer system. Perhaps some slot could be provided for primary industry to get into this most important field. 1251 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - In what department was that? 1251 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Through the Treasury and the Bureau of Census and Statistics. 1251 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - That is a pretty broad reply. 1251 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - It is a pretty accurate reply. My final point is to congratulate this industry on the success that it has had and to recommend - although I know that it needs no recommendation from myself or any other senator - the establishment of reconstituted milk factories in various countries around the world. This is a matter of particular significance. Since it appeared some years ago that the United Kingdom might enter the European Common Market, the dairying industry, mainly through the Victorian Dairy Products Board, has made a remarkable attempt to secure in some overseas countries outlets for reconstituted milk products. This is not an easy proposition. One might say that the advantages of what we in Australia are encouraging some countries to do are obvious. We have set up in our own country factories to manufacture the product and if I may make the suggestion perhaps we could give an overseas country an interest in the proposition. These factories are running efficiently and they provide a wonderful adjunct to the export market for Australian products, lt appears to be particularly wise. We can dry the product here and send it overseas, thereby cutting down the cost of transport and handling. Overseas the powder is reconstituted and put on the market in the form of milk and other products. We hear of a starving country such as India. Surely we should have half a dozen plants established there. What a wonderful thing it would be for that country if we could do that. If Britain should join the European Common Market we shall certainly have an excess production, particularly of dairy products This would be a wonderful opportunity to dispose of them to a people sorely in need of nutritious food, but in various countries we find there are trade or internal finance policies which prohibit this particular type of activity. This applies to India. Encouragement will need to be given to the Australian Dairy Produce Board to try through its various agencies to get other countries to instal reconstituted milk factories. The exporting efficiency of the dairying industry is shown by the fact that today it sells its products in more than ninety-four countries. In all probability this year exports will extend to over 100 countries, indicating that this is an industry which challenges comparison with any other industry, primary or secondary, within this Commonwealth. 1251 JUH Tasmania 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I see in this Bill two significant features. Firstly, there is the proposal to continue the subsidy for a further five years at the present rate of $27m a year. Secondly, there is the aspect to which I shall turn my attention shortly, that, as far as 1 can see, neither the Bill nor the Minister's second reading speech contains any concrete or definite proposals to reorganise this industry to meet the problems which confront it. Certainly passing reference is made to proposals to provide accommodation through certain banking institutions or through a part of the banking structure to enable people on the land to obtain finance more readily. I hope this will be available at a better rate of interest than at present operates. Despite the fact that the dairying industry was reviewed in 1960 - I have before me the report of the Dairy Industry Committee of Inquiry of August 1960 - and despite the fact that certain recommendations and prognostications were made, we still are presented with a proposal to do something for another five years which differs only minutely from the proposal which has operated over the past five years. Let me deal more particularly with the dairying industry stabilisation plan. I invite the Senate to recall that the proposal to stabilise the industry was introduced by a Labor government in 1947. It is proper that I should remind honourable senators of that fact and, if any reminder is needed, of the fact that the Opposition has a very deep interest in the welfare of this industry. The provision of a bounty for this industry relates closely to procedures and practices which are followed in certain other sectors of primary and secondary industry in Australia. Any criticism levelled at the proposition that the dairying industry should be supported in this way falls down when one considers the fact that the tariff, for instance operates to protect certain secondary industries in this country. Criticism of primary industry by those who are in the corner of, say, secondary industry can be reversed and quite easily turned against secondary industry because of the level of protection which is afforded secondary industry by way of tariff and otherwise. We must also bear in mind that the application of tariff protection to secondary industry quite frequency operates very much against the interests cf the primary producer of Australia. I want to try to reach some kind of rationalisation of how the amount of S27m per annum was reached as the bounty to be paid over the next five years. Surely one cannot argue that the bounty will maintain the status quo, because everyone in this chamber knows that costs have risen over the past five years and it would be quite remarkable if we were to lull ourselves into thinking that there would be no increase in cos's against this industry in the next five years. I suggest that the amount has been selected arbitrarily. It is an amount equal to that which has been agreed upon and paid in the past. It appears that someone in the Government has said: 'We have no SOl U ion of the problems confronting this industry. Therefore, as some kind of sop and so that it will not be strong in its condemnation of us for not proposing a positive plan, we will continue th; subsidy at the present amount of S27m. It has been accepted in the pas!, let us hope it will be accepted in the future. Let us get on with the job for another five years.' That is not good enough. If a bounty is to be paid to support this industry, no-one in this place could argue sensibly and logically that the amount which has been granted in the past should be the amount granted for the future. lt is six years since the Committee made its findings available to the Government, but no plan of any real consequence is yet before the Government, so it says to the industry: "We will give you this S27m a year, lt is what we paid you in the past an'l you have been reasonably quiet about it so let us hope you will remain quiet in the future. Let us get on with the job'. This is not good enough particularly when we take into account the problems of tha industry and the genuine and sincere endeavours which have b?en made in the past, and I trust will be made in the future, by people in the industry to try to eke out some kind of livelihood. Senator Websterreferred to the problem associated with the size of properties. This is a very real problem. Whereas once upon a time a person could get by fairly well milking thirty dairy cows which turned in a production per cow of about 200 lb of butter fat a year, these days one would have to milk forty very good dairy cows and have an annual production of 300 lb of butler fat to make a living. Let us suppose that the property upon which a farmer milked the thirty cows has not been extended and he is now endeavouring to milk forty cows on it. This means that production from that property must be increased. There has to be resort to irrigation; there has to be resort to heavier applications of fertiliser: there has to be resort to the purchase of additional machinery to keep abreast of modern practices in agriculture; there has to b: an improvement in dairy techniques and there has to be the employment of the latest technology in this field. All of these things cost money, so the diary farmer's difficulties continue, When dealing with the economics o': individual families I am not so concerned with the larger producer as with the relatively small producer. We must recognise that dairying is the fifth largest primary industry in Australia, and the small Dro.ducer makes a very valuable contribution to this section of primary industry. He is compelled, as was mentioned by Senator Webster, to upgrade the quality of his herd and to adopt the latest techniques available to him. He must bear in mind all the time that the cost of doing this is ever on the increase. He is confronted with a problem to which I think too little attention has been given in the past, the problem of obtaining the finance with which to improve his property, to adopt the latest techniques and to put in the various new installations so necessary on a modern dairy farm. He is actually no better off. In fact, I suggest very seriously to the Senate that he is in a much worse position than he was in the past. His position has deteriorated. 1 return to the $27m subsidy, which is a kind of blanket payment made on the basis of production without regard to the particular and special problems of the small operator. I have the deepest regard for the small dairy farmer and 1 would have liked to see a display of courage in the introduction of a scheme which I believe is so necessary to deal with the modern-day problem of providing greater assistance to the small operator through the medium of this subsidiary and, of course, in other ways as well. I do not believe in the blanket kind of approach which favours the dairy farmers who are in reasonably good circumstances. I refer here to the bigger operators, those with 100 and more dairy cows and quite extensive holdings. They are not in as much difficulty financially as are the small operators. 1253 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator Marriott - Does the honourable senator want a means test on efficiency? 1253 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - 1 want a sense of realism to be brought into this so that we can do the things that this Government has talked so much about to retain people in the country areas of Australia and to promote this idea of decentralisation. Since the war, I believe about 15,000 primary producers of Australia have left the land and flocked to the cities. What good is that doing this country? We want to see decentralisation. We want to be practical about it. If we are going to preach decentralisation then, for goodness sake, let us do something positive about it. In the two years that I have been here I and other honourable senators have been talking about these things, but I do not believe that one positive step has been taken by this Government to bring about the decentralisation about which we talk so much and do so little. I say that it is a question of need here. There is a necessity to sustain people in the field of primary industry where they can be of most value to the Australian community. It is as simple as that. In the main, these people have been born and bred on properties in the country. In many instances they are the stock of pioneers. I believe that we owe some sort of debt to them because their forebears went into these areas of the country, rolled up their sleeves, cleared the heavy timber and scrub and cut out their properties. They did not have very much in their day but they were able to say they had done something towards the development of this nation and I think they are entitled to recognition for this. So the generations have gone on until we see in these areas today second and third generations of farmers who ought to be entitled to say: 'The fruits of our labour are coming back to us.' But, instead of this being the case, the position is becoming more and more acute as time goes on and we are going to see this continual drift away from the land. 1 do not think this is a good thing. I have seen it in the area in which I was farming myself a few years ago. There I saw old pioneering families which had done so much for this country in the past being compelled to leave properties because of the economic circumstances which exist there. We have a very solemn responsibility in connection with this money that we are giving. Over a period of five years, we are going to spend from the public purse the sum of $135m ostensibly and presumably for the purpose of making sure that this industry is a viable proposition. suggest to the Government as seriously as I possibly can that the way in which we are handling this matter now - this mere blanket approach to the problem - does not do anything at all to cure the ills of this industry about which we have heard so much during the course of this debate. There are no definite plans for reorganisation. Certainly there are references in the Minister's second reading speech to things which can come about, but there is nothing definite. Had the Government had the interests of this industry seriously at heart, knowing the condition in which it is, one would have expected that in this day and age, conscious of its responsibility in the expenditure of public funds, the Government would have come up with a definite plan for the rehabilitation of the industry to give it an opportunity of surviving. I have heard in the course of this debate and I have read in the course of the past few days that dairying is being carried on in parts of Australia over a lactation period of five months and with a production per cow of only 75 lb of butter fat a year. Surely this is the problem which has to be tackled and overcome. If areas of country upon which dairying is being carried out are not suitable for this purpose, then part of this money that is being expended year by year through the system of bounties that operates at the moment ought to be utilised on some plan that should have been developed by this time for examining the potential of properties for higher production and greater output. If this is not a feasible proposition, the person concerned should be put into some other form of agriculture from which he could derive a reasonable livelihood and so he able to fulfil his obligations and responsibilities to the community. I suggest again that no dairy farmer can carry on a property on the basis of a five months lactation period and an annual butter fat return of only 75 lb a cow. Yet these properties do exist in Australia. Possibly it is a question of going into the practicability of irrigation projects - not small fiddling backyard irrigation projects, but large scale projects which can rehabilitate whole areas. Let us face it: one cannot go out into the back of beyond and set up a dairy farm without having an outlet for one's product. The best systems that can be employed in circumstances such as these are those where facilities for the treatment of the product after it leaves the farm are readily available. There is no point in sending the products of a dairy 200 miles or more to the nearest processing factory. Rehabilitation of these areas has to be undertaken on a large scale, having regard to the potential of the area with the use of superphosphate and nitrogenous fertilisers with the use of irrigation. While we continue willy nilly to hand out year by year such a sum as S27m without regard to these factors I suggest we are failing in our responsibility to the public of this country to ensure that funds of this kind are put to the best possible use. The system of subsidies to this industry has operated since 1947. My reading tells me that at one stage since its inception £21m or $42m was provided in one year. I fancy that on another occasion since the scheme was initiated £18m or $36m was provided to assist the industry. The scheme was introduced twenty years ago and at the present time we are paying out something less than that by way of bounty. I will grant that particular circumstances operated in those years when the higher subsidies were paid, but again I say we are begging the question by saying that all the industry needs is an injection of $27m from the Government and that is that. It is not that at all. I put it to the Senate that ten years ago it was estimated that every farm in England received a subsidy of about £900 a year. So this subsidy we are paying at the present time is not a very magnificent gesture to this industry when we find that in a country like the United Kingdom subsidies of the character to which I have referred are paid out. Again, while we talk a good deal about the free enterprise society of the United States of America, I think we ought to bear in mind also that in the course of a year the Government of the United Slates of America passes out something between S500m and S600m. So this bounty which we pay to the dairying industry is not something unusual. Frankly, 1 have very little time for people who criticise the fact that we are granting a subsidy to the dairying industry of Australia. This industry provides direct and indirect employment to 600,000 people or 5% of the total population of Australia each year. There are 500 factories of one kind or another treating and processing dairy products. These factories employ 12,000 people and their annual payroll is in the vicinity of S50m. I mention these figures to the Senate to indicate that this is not just a small industry; it is a very big Australian industry. It is extremely valuable to this country. The price now received for butte, fat on the farms throughout Australia to my knowledge is less than it was in 1954. I would have to give and take a little here because I am not completely au fait with the point but I believe that the dairy farmers are receiving in the vicinity of 40c to 41c per lb for butter fat. This figure is below that which they were receiving in 1954. It is about equivalent to the figure that they received in 1956. The returns have not increased despite all the bounties that are involved in the running of an industry of this kind. The costs and so on that have occurred in that time have left the position that the return per lb of butter fat has not increased in the last decade. So, the dairy farmers who have been able to stay on their properties have had to absorb pretty substantial costs. They must have engaged to the limit of their capacity in the latest technological practices and so on that are taking place in this industry. The availability of finance to assist the dairy farmers and primary producers generally in Australia has been pretty poor over the years. There have been countless occasions in the past when the injection of a bit of borrowed capital into the activities of the man on the land would have enabled him to institute practices and to provide machinery, implements, and things of that kind which would have assisted him greatly. But the interest rates that were being charged to him were crippling to the extent that, very often, he could not take up finance even if it was available to him. This points to one of the great difficulties facing the dairy farmer. I can recall that, a few years ago, a very good farmer on the north-west coast of Tasmania with assets of £18,000 had, because of illness, to go out of production for a short period. He was rehabilitated. He needed £3,000 cash to restock his property and to get it under way again. Not only did he have to submit to the normal form of borrowing by way of mortgage, but also his bank manager called him in a few days later and said: 'Look, I do not think that the security that you have made available to us is good enough. I am afraid that I have to request you to undertake a second mortgage'. The farmer said: 'Goodness gracious me, I. have banked with this institution all my life. I am not a fly-by-night type of person. I have a farm property. 1 have housing property. On your estimation, 1 have £18,000 worth of capital property. You are asking me to go to a second mortgage. I will sell my farm and gel off before I will do that at an interest rate of 7% or 8%'. I suggest to the Senate that a person cannot pay that sort of money and carry on in an industry as valuable and as vital as the dairying industry is. I know that this problem has hit many dairy farmers. Again 1 refer to the position of the large producer as against the position of the small producer. The large producer, by and large, can obtain financial accommodation with ready facility most times. But the small man, because of his difficult financial position and because he needs the net income from his farm finds it extremely difficult to meet any additional financial commitment in the servicing of loans and this sort of thing. I notice that in his second reading speech the Minister for Repatriation (Senator McKellar) made reference to a farm development loan fund through the Development Bank. I suggest that this was very little more than a passing reference to the proposal to set up this fund. This is one of the matters that ought to be looked at very seriously, I believe. If the small operator in the Australian farming community is to be sustained - he is an awfully valuable citizen there - then we need to have a much better regard for his welfare than we have had in the past. 1 suggest that we will not achieve this by passing out a subsidy in respect of butter fat to sustain him. Ultimately he will succumb to the difficulties unless he can see that we are interested in his welfare and that we are prepared to do something positive and realistic to help sustain him in his position. I cannot see that there is any hope for him to stay on his property unless we do this. What do we find then? Senator Webster referred to the question of amalgamation. We find the proposal of amalgamation. When this happens, a drift away from the farming community takes place. Another family leaves the Australian rural community. 1255 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - That is not necessarily so. 1255 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - This can be so and it usually is so. 1255 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - But it would not be necessarily so. 1255 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - It does not have to be so. But let us look at the situation and find out just what is happening .in the rural community. If a farmer has approximately 100 acres of land, he may be able to make a go of it because he can run only a certain number of cows on it. He cannot go to work for the local council or the public works department, whichever it may be in his area, as so many farmers do. He cannot do this in his area. Ultimately he has to sell out and his property is amalgamated with another. 1 know of instances of this happening. The farmer takes his family and drifts into the town. We have a backward move as far as those who are proponents of decentralisation are concerned. This is a retrograde step. Some means has to be found to counter and overcome this drift. If we cannot do this, at least let us be honest and say to these farmers: 'The best think that you can do is pack up and get out. Go into the towns and the cities and let the big operator take over your properties.' These people are extremely important to me. Surely we want to see these people happily settled in these rural communities where they are doing a valuable job for Australia. Surely this is what we want in preference to perpetuating these takeovers and monopolies which have been such a feature of the postwar life of Australia. This state of affairs has not done us a great deal of credit, I suggest. Recent trends relating to butter factory organisation and so on throughout Australia suggest to me that a kind of lethargy has overtaken the people who otherwise could have gone more deeply into the technological processes of the industry and who might be able to convert these processes to the benefit of the people who are their suppliers. The Labor Party, let me put it to the Senate, has had as its policy as far as the rural community is concerned the preservation of the interests of the producer and the consumer. We do not say in our policy that we are deeply concerned with the welfare of the middle man. We say that our concern is for the producer and the consumer. Further, we say that it is part and parcel of our policy to support the proposition of co-operative organisation. The ideal is to have an organisational set-up in the rural communities of Australia where the farmer can carry on with production, can send his product to an organisation for treatment and processing and can receive his return from that organisation. I suggest that a good promotional gimmick would be available there in the fact that if the co-operative organisations could handle, as many of them do, the marketing side of the product which goes through its factory organisation, the consumer will receive a better go also. This can be made so obvious if one looks at the position of the whole milk industry in Australia. Let us take for instance the fact that 10 gallons of milk produces 1 gallon of cream from which 4 lb of butter fat is obtained. Therefore, 21 gallons of milk would produce 1 lb of butter fat generally for which the producer is receiving about 40c or 41c per lb. Now the consuming public throughout Australia buys milk in individual bottles at 10c each. So there is a return of $2 on 2i gallons of milk. The butter fat producer receives out of this production about 40c to 41c plus the deferred pay, which will come from the factory in due course, of another 5c. The person buying whole milk at the door day by day pays at the level of S2 for the same amount of milk. This is one of the things that should have been inquired into for the purpose of achieving some sort of rationalisation. In certain areas of Tasmania two or three organisations are buying the available milk. The farmer who supplies a butter factory receives 40c per pound of butter fat. Certainly, he may keep the skim milk. A farmer supplying Cadbury-Fry-Pascall Pty Ltd receives 52c per pound of butter fat. A farmer who is lucky enough to supply the whole milk market gets a substantially greater return. These various levels of return all apply in the one industry. Strong criticism might well be levelled at the co-operative butter factories because, so it seems, they have been content to do nothing for years and to allow somebody else to skim off the cream, if I may use that phrase. They ought to have been wide awake to the latest trends and developments in countries such as Sweden and the United States of America where ultra heat methods of treating milk are used. It should have been possible for them to develop a system of collecting supplies by means of tankers that could travel throughout the dairying areas collecting milk at the dairy or wherever else the farmer chooses to have it collected for delivery to the factory. Depending on the trend in the market from day to day or week to week - whichever seems best - milk could be used for the whole milk market or for the manufacture of cheese, butter, milk powder, casein or some other product. Ultra heat methods of treating milk could be used, enabling it to be kept for up to three months without refrigeration. This sort of arrangement in the industry would cut costs substantially because deliveries would not have to be made from day to day as at present. Furthermore, the producer would benefit by better returns from the factory since it would have facilities to treat the whole of the farmer's product according to the situation of the market from day to day or week to week. If there were a strong call for powder for reconstitution later in some other part of Australia, the factory ought to be able to produce powder to meet the demand. We certainly ought to be turning our attention to this field of production. If there were a requirement for butter for export or for some other dairy product, the factory ought to be able to supply the demand. The co-operative factories ought to make surveys from time to time to determine current trends at any particular time. If these methods were adopted producers would get the best possible returns from the co-operative factories. Consumers also would benefit because dairy products would be available to them at prices they could afford to pay. I believe that, despite the promotional efforts that have been made in the last few years to increase the consumption of butter, milk and other dairy products, the record will show that there has been a decline in the per capita consumption of butter and of whole milk, which is a valuable food product. 1257 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - We have found evidence of a decline in consumption. 1257 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - That is so. The reason is that people just cannot afford to meet continual increases in the prices of these products that are necessary to sustain life. Before I pass to another matter let me say that I earnestly hope that those who are engaged in the management of co-operative dairy factories will get out of their chairs and have a look at the latest trends in the industry in an endeavour to cash in on the undoubted market that is available for the new products that are now seeing the light of day. A few months ago in Tasmania a private organisation installed equipment purchased from Sweden to treat whole milk by means that would enable it to be kept for three months without refrigeration. So great has been the demand for the new product that the company, I believe, is shortly to take delivery of a second set of equipment. There has been a tremendous demand for the new product in South East Asia, New Guinea and even Australia. It is interesting to note, Mr Acting Deputy President, that it is now possible to supply cream treated by this process to Port Moresby in New Guinea at half the price that was previously paid there for cream. This gives an indication of the potential market in Asia for products of this kind. I believe that if the people of Asian countries had a standard of living measuring up to ours we would be unable to supply anything like the volume of dairy products that they would require. The co-operative dairy factories should have investigated the ultra heat treatment process and should already have in operation plants using this process. Had they adopted it, they would have been able to give the producers a much better return for their labours and the consuming public would have been able to get a good product at much lower prices than they are at present paying. Last Thursday Senator Wright mentioned the impact on the returns to primary producers made by decisions arrived at from time to time by the wage fixing tribunals of Australia. In his remarks there seemed to be implied the suggestion that the whole responsibility for the economic plight Df Australia and of various sections of industry throughout the country rested on the shoulders of the working man.. Nothing could be further from the truth. I suggest to you, Sir, that wage and salary earners are the only ones in Australia who have to go before tribunals to justify increases in their income. They have to justify increased wages and salaries on the basis of cost increases throughout the community from time to time. However, any increase in wages and salaries is eroded almost overnight by the rapacity of some sections of industry. As soon as the basic wage is raised there is a clamour for an increase in prices. The seller of a commodity is not required to justify a price increase before any tribunal, court or judicial body. It is necessary only for him to go round his shop and mark up the prices of the commodities that he sells. In these circumstances, the value of any wage increase given to the workers of Australia is lost to them almost overnight. Some years ago when an increase in margins was granted to the workers I was horrified to hear what was do:ne by one shopkeeper. That increase meant about ls 3d a day, or approximately 6s a week, for the workers. The morning after it was awarded, a shopkeeper in Tasmania who sold prams, bassinets and other things needed by young couples to raise their families - articles that are necessaries of life for young couples raising families - went round his shop and marked up every item by 10%. The wage increase had made no impact on him whatsoever, but that was his approach to it. That is the sort of thing that has been happening for years. What did the Government do about it on that occasion? This Government is supposed to be greatly concerned about the incomes of wage and salary earners, but it did absolutely nothing. In effect, it condones the sort of objectionable practice that occurs whenever a wage increase is awarded. As I have said, wage rises arc taken from the workers almost overnight by practices such as this. 1258 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - In the instance mentioned, was not the matter in the hands of the Tasmanian Government? 1258 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - lt was in the hands of the National Government, which stood idly by and made no attempt to deal with the situation. Having made absolutely certain that wages and salaries will be controlled by the arbitration processes that it administers, the Federal Government absolutely vacates the field when it comes to a question of preserving the value of wages and salaries and enabling the workers, on whom the prosperity of this country depends, and who have created the nation's wealth, to retain the benefit of wage increases that they are awarded. lt is beyond doubt that an> increase in wages and salaries granted by the operation of the arbitration processes of this nation hits the dairy industry and other industries. This is bound to happen. Until the Government wakes up to the fact that the stabilisation of the nation's economy involves two factors - the prices of goods as well as wages and salaries - we shall be faced with this inflationary spiral, which does us no credit. Let Senator Wright speak to somebody else about what happens as a result of wage and salary increases. Do not let him try to sell it to me because this system has been continuing for years. The only result of the Government's abject failure to do anything about controlling costs and prices is to make it just that little bit more difficult for us to sell our goods on world markets. This is a competitive world with competitive markets. Until we wake up to the fact that there are responsibilities on both sides and until the Government realises that you cannot stop the flow of a river by putting a dam half way across, we will have these perpetual problems with us. I am on the side of the salary and wage earner because after all he is the person who by the sweat on his brow and by working with his hands for this country has created prosperity. He is entitled to share in it. Let me make one final observation about the dairying industry. Let us face facts. We know that the dairying industry in Australia has problems, but the Government will not solve those problems by year after year taking out of the public purse some $27m and saying to the dairy farmers: 'Split that up amongst you.' I know that there are trends in this industry which will lead to its ruin as a viable and valuable industry in Australia. Until we get to the stage in this place where we are prepared to be men enough and women enough to face up to the fact that problems exist in the industry and to do something positive to overcome them, we will just beg the question as we have done for so many years in the past. 1258 KB9 Western Australia 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - Mr Acting Deputy President. I am really surprised that debate on a Bill on which both sides of the chamber are in reasonable agreement has taken so long and has brought forward so many figures. 1 should have thought that it would have been possible to have dealt with this Bill and to have brought forward some suggestions in a much shorter time. I am speaking at this stage, nol to add further to the extensive debate that has taken place on this Bill, but more or less to clinch the nail which has been driven and which I feel has been submerged in the mass of figures and arguments that has been introduced. It seems to me that there is a place in this debate for someone to advance the arguments from the viewpoint of the dairy farmer himself. Although some speakers who I feel have had some close association with the industry have skirted around this point, I think that the speaker who got closest to it was Senator Webster who apparently was reared on a dairy farm. Anyway, he drank some of the milk that was produced on the farm and was able to speak about it. I warn to raise a few points as a person who actually owned and operated a dairy farm for some years. I think that in raising these points in fairly strong terms 1 can clinch this nail which has been driven on this side of the chamber but which, as I have said, has been lost in a mass of figures and arguments. I think that my experience has been most valuable because it has given me the opportunity of seeing the point of view of the small dairy farmer. I took over a property which had excellent possibilities but which represented an impossible job for the farmer who ran it. He was milking twenty-seven cows which was a very small number for the size of the property. He used to get up at five o'clock in the morning and hand milk twenty-seven cows. When he had finished he drew water from a well in order to water the stock. He had a rest then because he needed it, and he started milking again at three o'clock in the afternoon. 1259 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - 1 thought that the honourable senator was referring to drawing water for the purpose of watering down the milk. 1259 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - No. lt was for the stock which needed it. This was a good property but the farmer could not make ends meet. He could not develop the property to its potential. He had to give it up. 1 took it over from the Agricultural Bank. I did not have extensive financial backing but I had some finance. In a very short time it was possible to instal a milking machine which enabled me to increase the herd which could be carried, lt was possible at no great expense to instal a windmill which would provide water. Later, it was possible to construct dams. This made the property a good proposition because stock could obtain water whenever they needed in the paddocks in which they were situated. The result of this was that 1 had plenty of time on my hands, which my predecessor did not have, with which to develop the property. 1 put down good permanent pastures and arranged for irrigation in order to bring the property to a stage where it was able to function as a financial proposition. This experience to which I am pointing is relevant to the position of small dairy farmers particularly in the south west of Western Australia. 1259 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Does not the honourable senator think that that is an indication of the results of efficiency and inefficiency and that this is something that should be looked at in this industry? 1259 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - That is so. 1 had intended to refer later to Senator Webster's remarks because I thought ha was right on the ball in a number of statements that he made about the industry and what should be done. I am happy to do that now. The point about the industry in the south west of Western Australia, which is the land that 1 know best, is that in the early days heavy timber had to be removed in order to put down pastures. Initially, this was done by farmers who were just making ends meet. But later, particularly when the war service land settlement scheme commenced in Western Australia, this work was done by contractors on behalf of the Government and the property was then handed over to the farmer. It was ready for him to fence, to stock and to put in pastures. Of course at that stage he was billed for a tremendous capital cost. Our experience in Western Australia has been that we have had to write off large sums of money in respect of dairy farm land in order to help these dairy farmers to carry on. I want honourable senators to understand the point that I am making from my own experience and from what others have seen. Because these farmers had a millstone around their necks as a result of the capital which had been invested in the properties they were unable to improve either the carrying capacity of the farm or the stock which they were carrying. At this stage I want to draw attention to the remarks of Senator Prowse who believed that the industry had reached a quite high degree of efficiency. I was pleased to hear that in his opinion there was nothing to worry about, so far as dairy farmers were concerned. This was also borne out by Senator Lillico and Senator Benn who referred to average acreages in the various States of Australia, which really surprised me. I know this area in Western Australia fairly well. I shall take Western Australia because that is the only State about which I can speak with some authority. I find that the average acreage of a dairy farm is 470 acres according to the figures that were presented by Senator Benn. An average of 470 acres seems rather large for dairy farms. 1 know of plenty of dairy farms of about 100 acres. For the average dairy farm to be 470 acres in Western Australia there must be some pretty big dairy farms there. I do not question the accuracy of the honourable senator's figure. I am just wondering how it is arrived at. Honourable senators will notice that the figures he gave for Western Australia are singularly high. 1260 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - He is a Queenslander, is he not? 1260 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - The average for Queensland was 433 acres and for Western Australia it was 470 acres. When a farmer has a highly productive dairying property he may also have another property on which he puts down clover for dry stock. It seems to me that in calculating the averages quoted by Senator Benn regard has not been had to that factor and that the properties on which dry stock are run have been included in the calculations. The land on which dry stock are run cannot properly be counted as dairying land. Senator Benn also said that on the average farm of 470 acres, an area of 359 acres was under pasture. 1260 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - What were those areas sown to? 1260 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - It is not stated. It simply says 'pasture'. I presume the figure of 359 acres relates in Western Australia to outlying areas carrying subterranean clover. Dry stock are run on such land together with vealers. Senator Benn also stated that Western Australia has a high average number of dairy cows to a herd. He said that the average is 124 - higher than any other State - and that the next highest is 90 in New South Wales. This surprises me. From my experience in Western Australia I cannot imagine that it is correct. I believe that the numbers of vealers must have been included in the calculations, but they are not dairy cows. 1260 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - Does the honourable senator think that the figures are reliable? 1260 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I am not sure of the source from which Senator Benn obtained the figures, but he made quite a feature of them and used them as the basis of a lot of his arguments. He said that the average gallonage per cow in Western Australia was 468. That also surprised me, because 1 know that on average the result has not been anywhere near that figure. 1260 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - The figures must be taken from the 'Benn Report'. 1260 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I am not sure where the figures came from, but the honourable senator vouched for them. The next figures given relate to the quantity of milk produced by each cow in Western Australia and the average amount of income received by the farmers. I have made some conservative calculations. An average dairy farmer in Western Australia with a property of 470 acres, a herd of 100 cows - I am not using the figure of 124 because it is necessary to allow for dry stock - and an average gallonage of 468 for each cow, with an average butter fat content of 4%, would receive an average income of $7,500 annually. To that figure must be added the value of his vealers. The young stock would be retained and the mature stock would be sold. Assuming a return of $2,500 from vealers, the total income would be $10,000, which is not too bad as an average. Running expenses must be deducted. The cost of superphosphate, wages, interest on capital, repairs and so on would be about $4,000, leaving an annual profit of about $6,000. Considered in the terms put forward by Senator Prowse, that indicates that the industry is in a pretty good way. I turn now to figures resulting from a survey by the Bureau of Agricultural Economics. I find the situation shown by these figures very difficult to understand in view of the statements that have been made about the efficiency and financial standing of the industry. According to the Bureau dairy farmers in Western Australia have the lowest average income. After paying expenses they are each left with an average income of $1,700, or $34 a week. I defy any honourable senator to tell me that that is a just return for a man who is working his insides out from early morning to late at night. I know what it is like to be called out on a cold winter night because my bull has got into my neighbour's paddock. I have had to go and drag it out, and I did not get overtime for that task. 1261 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - Why drag it out? 1261 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - A farmer who is interested in his property tries to keep on good terms with the farmer next door. That is why he will go along and drag out his bull from a neighbour's property in the middle of the night, lt cannot truly be said that that situation arises because of bad fences. I had a six-strand barbed wire fence, but I could not keep my bull on my property and my neighbour could not keep his bull on his property. 1261 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - They say that a change is as good as a holiday. 1261 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I gather that the honourable senator is implying that I should have kept my neighbour's bull and that he should have kept mine, and then they would not have broken out. I have explained to the Senate my calculations showing how an average dairy farmer in Western Australia on the figures quoted by Senator Benn should make an annual profit of about $6,000 after meeting all his expenses, including repairs. The Bureau of Agricultural Economics has stated that the average annual return of a dairy farmer in Western Australia is $1,700. The Government has promised that it will look at the situation of marginal dairy farms within the next twelve months. This point has been hammered in various way by the Opposition and it is referred to in the Minister's second reading speech. I claim that there are marginal farms not only in Western Australia but throughout Australia, even in lush Tasmania. I hope that the Government honours its promise and will submit a proposition on marginal dairy farms to Parliament within twelve months. 1261 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Would the honourable senator think that there is any primary, secondary or retail industry that is not open to criticism as inefficient? 1261 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I am not arguing about the other industries. At the moment I am considering what should be done for the dairying industry, and I think it is an important matter. I believe that the dairying industry has a tremendous contribution to make to the world. I am not saying that its methods cannot be improved. I believe that they can, but under present conditions dairy farmers in the lower income bracket are unable to increase the quality of their herds or carry out necessary pasture improvements. About half the pastures used in Australia for dairying are not suitable for that purpose throughout the year. A balanced pasture is essential. It is not simply a matter of sowing clover or paspalum. It is necessary to strike a proper balance. Under the subsidy scheme dairy farmers should be provided with the means of sowing balanced pastures. I am not speaking against the subsidy, but unfortunately it is going largely to the wealthy producers who do not need it, because their properties are already developed to the highest level. 1261 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - Could they be subjected to a means test? 1261 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - That might be possible, but I am not suggesting it. I do not have a proper opportunity to suggest it. I think an inquiry should be conducted by the Government and a plan put to the Parliament. If the Government does not put forward a plan in the next twelve months, as it has promised to do, I believe that it would be our place to come forward with one. We would have plenty of opportunities to indicate ways in which the industry could be improved. It would be our place to do that then, but not at this moment. At the present time we are not arguing anything more than that this Bill should be carried and that there is need for a sympathetic inquiry into the problems of the marginal producers. In view of the fact that the world needs milk, the fact that the industry does not want to be closed up and the fact that it is decentralised, as almost everybody who has spoken has said, it is important and reasonable that we should do all we can to see that the industry is put on a better basis. I believe that that could be done. I hope that the Government will come forward in twelve months with a plan that will do that. 1261 KTL New South Wales CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - in reply - I think there have been eleven speakers on this Bill. I regret that I was unable to be present throughout the debate. Duties took me away from the Senate last Thursday evening. I am sure that the debate has brought forward much information which could be useful and instructive to many people who have not really understood the position of the dairy farmers over the years. Some dairy farmers have been in dire straits - I use that phrase deliberately - for quite a number of years. One point which I wish to emphasise and which I mentioned in the second reading speech is this: the fact that the dairy farmers receive the returns that they do receive through the operation of the bounty means that the prices of butter and cheese paid by the Australian consumers can be held down to levels which otherwise would not be possible. The dividends from the provision of the bounty can be seen clearly in increased production, improved productivity and increased foreign exchange earnings from the export sales of our dairy products in the face of the keen competition that exists in the international trading of these products. Quite a deal of stress has been placed on the importance of the decentralisation measures brought about by the dairy industry, lt is true that it brings about decentralisation. The number of people engaged in the industry and the total amount earned by it have been mentioned. Mention has been made of the fact that the amount of the subsidy has been static over the years in spite of cost rises. Because there has been some criticism of that, 1 remind honourable senators that the amount of $27m, which is mentioned in the Bill, is the amount that the dairy farmers have considered to be reasonable. Honourable senators have pointed out that production has increased. This redounds to the credit of the dairy farmers. Although I have no experience of dairy farming, I have always been very sympathetic towards the industry because it involves very hard work and very long hours on the part of most of the people engaged in it. I get a little hot under the collar when I hear people who should know better, and who could know better if they took a little interest and educated themselves in the position of the industry, criticising dairy farmers for being inefficent and saying that, they should get out of the industry. Mention has been made of the position of marginal dairy farmers. Their position depends on where their farm is, the area in which it is and the position of the farmers themselves. The number of cows or the number of acres for a particular property cannot be laid down. It would be very difficult to put down some hard and fast definition of a marginal area. We might say that generally a marginal dairy farm is regarded as being one which has high costs and low income and which obtains its return predominantly from the dairy enterprise but has insufficient output to provide the surplus needed for investment to increased productivity. That is probably as close as we can get to a definition of a marginal dairy farm. Reference has been made to what will happen to the Australian dairy industry when the United Kingdom enters the European Common Market. This will mean quite a deal to Australia and even more to our sister country, New Zealand. We have obtained additional markets over the period since the United Kingdom first thought of entering the Common Market in 1962. I believe that we can take comfort from the fact that the Australian Government will take whatever measures and action it can take in respect of the Australian dairy industry and Australia generally to ensure that Australia's interests are protected. At this juncture none of us knows to what extent the actions and endeavours of the Government will be successful. The Australian dairy industry is well organised in the marketing of its products. For some years it has been very active in the diversification of its markets. Almost daily we see some expansion of the milk products industry of this country. The question has been asked whether the bounty is actually received by the dairy farmer. I am told that the dairying subsidy audit section, which audits the books of every factory, does so at least once every year. That is a pretty efficient way of ensuring that the producers do receive the bounty that they are supposed to receive. 1262 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - The bounty is so much per lb of butter, is it? 1262 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I think it was Senator Ormonde, who has just interjected, who referred to dairy farmers and other people on the land eating margarine. I remember, as he probably does, that many years ago many people did not eat butter, but ate dripping - not because they preferred dripping to butter, but because it was cheaper. That is one of the reasons why margarine is being eaten today, even in the dairy industry. 1263 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - Nonsense! 1263 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - That is the honourable senator's opinion, but it is not mine. Why anybody would want to eat margarine when he could eat butter I would not know. There has been a conflict of opinion on the effects of butter and margarine on the human system. Doctors disagree on the effects. Two or three years ago it was popular to believe that butter was injurious to people who ate it. I think that belief has been disproved very largely. I understand that for some people, such as people suffering from blood pressure, margarine is more suitable than butter. Not being a medical man, 1 cannot say whether that is right or wrong. I believe that the majority of Australians, given the opportunity, will eat butter. 1 hope that they will continue to do so. I propose to be brief in replying to this debate, but honourable senators may be interested to know that over the whole milk sector of the industry the average net farm income is $3,000 a year. Twenty per cent of dairy farmers receive a net income of less than $1,000 a year; 30% between $1,000 and $1,999; 10% between $2,000 and $2,999; 10% between $3,000 and $3,999; 10% between $4,000 and $4,999, and 20% receive $5,000 per annum and over. I should think that in the main the dairy farmers of Victoria are more prosperous than those in any other State, and that perhaps the dairy farmers of Queensland and New South Wales, especially on the north coast of New South Wales outside the milk zone, receive the lower incomes. This is to be deplored. Senator Ormonde mentioned the constitution of the Milk Board in Sydney, which has done much good for the dairy farmers who dispose of their milk within the milk zone, but has not been so good to the farmers outside the zone. The solution apparently does not lie in allowing the farmers outside the Sydney milk zone to send their milk into the city, for that would mean a lower return for the farmers already within the milk zone. As I understand it, the dairy farmers inside the milk zone are confined mainly to producing milk, whereas the mcn outside the zone in many cases have sidelines, such as pigs, as well as being able to produce milk for butter. Despite this it seems that the New South Wales dairy farmers outside the milk zone believe that they should be included in it. The solution of this problem is not easy. The intention of the Government has been made clear; that is, to try to do something for the alleviation of the conditions of people who are on farms that are too small, by amalgamating the smaller farms and thereby assisting the people who own the small farms to have a better chance of obtaining a reasonable return. That is to be commended. Nothing can be gained by the Government's deciding, as suggested by some people, that this should extend over a period of only one year. This period would be far too short, and it is the intention of the Government to carry out this experiment - and that is what il amounts to - over a longer period. 1 believe this can be well justified, and I hope that a speedy passage will be given to this measure in Committee. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. 1263 bill 1263 Debate resumed from 2 May (vide page 1036), on motion by Senator McKellar: That the Bill bc now read a second time. Senator O'BYRNE(Tasmania) [ 10. 15 JThis Bill provides for the continuation of the bounty payable on the export of processed milk, which expires on 30th June next, lt will operate until 30th June 1972. The maximum amount of bounty payable will be maintained at $800,000 per annum, or $4m over the five year period. As the Bill was debated concurrently with the Dairying Industry Bill, which has just passed through all its stages in this chamber, the Opposition does not propose to oppose the measure or to prolong the debate on it. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. 1264 bill 1264 Debate resumed (vide page 1243). 1264 JYA Tasmania 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - This Bill relates to the policy of tie Government to establish an Australian Tourist Commission for the purpose of encouraging visitors to Australia and travel in Australia by people from other countries. The Opposition does not propose to oppose the measure, but there are many facets of the legislation that could well be brought to the notice of the Senate when this most important matter is being discussed. The tourist industry is growing in importance throughout the Western world, and emphasis is being placed on improving the means of transport, air travel, communications, and the interchange of information in various countries by such mass media as television and films. In addition people have now come to realise that they are not confined to the countries in which they live. This has created a tremendous desire in the minds of many people to visit other countries and to see how the other half lives. National legislation on this subject whereby the whole of the efforts of government instrumentalities can be directed towards the co-ordination of tourist activities, is overdue in this country. It is interesting to know that each State in the Commonwealth has a highly developed tourist department and representation in the other States to encourage tourists to visit their respective States. In some parts of the Commonwealth the tourist industry is becoming the main income earner. We must give full recognition to the fact that when people are spending their money in this way, their money is widely shared in the community. A tourist has a certain amount of money to spend, but it creates a demand for transport from his place of residence, and for accommodation; this in turn gives a stimulus to the accommodation industry and leads to higher standards in motels, hotels and the other places that provide accommodation for tourists. There is an incentive for States to develop places of interest which have not been developed to a stage where they can be visited by numbers of tourists. There is a challenge to State instrumentalities and private persons to build up the standards of tourist resorts. 1 have the good fortune to live in a State that abounds in tourist attractions. Our climate is temperate. Many people do not realise that although Tasmania is a relatively small State the rainfall varies from 120 inches annually on one coast to 20 inches annually on another coast. Our mountains soar to a height of over 5,000 feet. We have reliable snow fields that can be used for three or four months of the year. We have a magnificent attraction in a plateau with thousands of small lakes and tarns. I could go on reciting the advantages of Tasmania as regards the attraction of tourists but it was not my intention to elaborate on these. I am very pleased that we shall probably have as our next speaker someone who will speak of the advantages of New South Wales in attracting tourists. We of the Opposition feel that the Commission, in co-ordinating tourist activities through the Commonwealth, can start a chain reaction which will be of advantage to Australia. 1264 JTT South Australia 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - The measure which is receiving support from all around the chamber tonight is one which also has my support. It has, of course, the support of all honourable senators and, indeed, of the community at large. I am rather sorry that Senator O'Byrne did not develop his ideas a little further and go beyond Tasmania for I remind him that the Bill is, after all, for the establishment of a commission to attract visitors from overseas to Australia. I certainly hope that when they come to Australia they will go to Tasmania, because they will enjoy lots of things about Tasmania. But Australia is a very big place and there are many features and attractions to be seen, to be enjoyed, and to be understood, so that they provide people with not only a certain amount of pleasure during their holidays but also knowledge of this part of the world. So because the Government is establishing the Australian Tourist Commission and because it is receiving this kind of unanimous support it is clear that the matter of tourism - a word which has been very much overworked - has become a matter of national policy and national interest. The Bill is designed to promote travel and tourism. This Commission, I suggest, is the first step in promoting this kind of movement. Fairly obviously, in a world of great movement and travel the results are enormous while the possibilities of it are really quite phenomenal. I know it has been said in other words and in other ways but I think it would be a good idea for the record to observe that the benefits that flow from tourist activities are quite spectacular. A wide range of business and commercial interests stand to benefit. They go far beyond the airline, railway and other transportation interests, which are fairly obvious when we think about travel, and through them to all of the servicing industries. The accommodation and food services similarly expand their range of supporting agents, while the retailer, manufacturer, banker, insurance officer and the rest directly or indirectly benefit from this great and widespread movement. It goes without saying that employment meets a new demand which is of ultimate benefit. So the Government is wise to seek its share of international tourism, which has been described in very many documents as being today the largest single item in foreign trade. In the last two decades there has been a phenomenal rise in world travel, both nationally and internationally. In the year before last the world tourist receipts reached $11.6 billion for international tourism and $43 billion for domestic tourism. Since 1961 international tourist movements have increased at an average of 12% a year. This Bill proclaims the Government's recognition of this fact and seeks to take advantage of it. Incidentally, I do not know that I like the word tourism'. I indicated that a moment ago. I am not sure that I like the word 'tourist', with its connotation of pleasure travel. It is granted that when we are talking of the tourist industry we are thinking in the main of people on holidays, people who are travelling for their pleasure, people who are travelling in circumstances that are, perhaps, rather more luxurious than those in which they normally travel. Nevertheless, I prefer reference to traveller, to travel and to the travel industry. This Commission is being set up against a background of world travellers on the move for pleasure, for education or for business, travellers who are going somewhere to see something, to inspect something, to confer on some matter or to learn something. In today's world, travel starts in the early years of an individual. We live in a world of travel competitions, organised visits, escorted tours, and a score of arranged travel patterns. Travellers range from the camping hitch hiker to the millionaire in a luxury liner. There are student travellers. There are youn« farmers tours. I was very impressed with the exercise recently carried out by the Royal Commonwealth Society, which brought a group of young executives Iron England to Australia under a scheme which it called Operation Kangaroo. All these activities are part of the material and part of the great traffic which will be the working area of the Commission which is being established, lt takes up its duties in the midst of what has been described as the world travel explosion. The internation! travel industry during the past twenty years has been gaining not only in numbers and percentages but also in stature and maturity. Almost every country, including some of the newly independent countries of Africa, has established some form of travel organisation in recent times. In a great many countries these organisations are under the control of or are initiated and directed by some form of government instrumentality the function ot which is to develop and promote the travel industry. A recent tabulation showed that in sixty or more countries 522 overseas offices devoted to the promotion of travel are operating. The International Union of Travel Organisations has worked out that fifty-two government tourist organisations are spending at the rate of over $150m annually for travel promotion. It is true that a great part of this spending is directed to the American market but in addition great sums are being spent on travel promotion by airlines, hotel organisations and other related agencies. The United Nations is not without interest in this sort of world development. In 1963 it recommended what it called greater technical assistance for travel because of its importance in strengthening economic development policies of developing countries. This was underlined only eighteen months ago when a United Nations sub-committee in its conference on trade and development put out a. statement to this effect with the interesting title Committee on Invisibles and Financing.' It is apparent that there is not only a world wide movement but also a world wide interest. In his second reading speech the Minister pays a tribute, as did Senator Morris and other honourable senators with whom I join, to the Australian National Travel Association. While we are proclaiming the wonder of this piece of legislation it is important to recount here that the Government's recognition of the importance of overseas travel is by no means new. As the Minister pointed out, the Australian National Travel Association, which is a voluntary body, has since 1929 undertaken in a splendid fashion the task of promoting tourism to Australia. In fact, the Government's decision to establish the Australian Tourist Commission has resulted from a proposal put forward by the Association. As most honourable senators know, the Association commissioned studies by two United States firms of consultants of the tourist situation in Australia and of the Australian tourist potential. I have been looking at the Association's very interesting report for 1965-66. Its graph covering the five years 1962 to 1966 inclusive gives a very illuminating account of the growth of the overseas visitor industry. The graph shows that earnings from overseas visitors in the five years have increased from S47m to $76m and that the number of visitors has increased from 132,000 to 210,000. The Association's budget has more than doubled. It is interesting to consider the areas from which our overseas visitors have come. There have been a considerable number from Commonwealth countries with quite a body of movement from South Africa. From the Americas, during the twelve months period under review Canada sent nearly 4,000 visitors whereas the United States, as was to be expected, sent a much larger number than that - some 23,000. From the Asian continent, the group Ceylon, India and Pakistan sent just over 2,000 visitors, which incidentally was an increase of 6% over the previous year, and a similar number came from Hong Kong. Malaysia and Singapore sent over 5,000 visitors in the year. The United Kingdom and Ireland sent a total of 22,000 visitors and lesser numbers came from various European countries, making a total for the year of 173,000 visitors. Adding to this the number of cruise passengers who arrived In Australia we had a grand total of 192,000 visitors. Succeeding pages are devoted to the Harris, Kerr, Forster report which has been very much the basis of the legislation before the Senate. Because this has been summarised in the speeches of honourable senators and in the Bill itself there is no need to develop it any further at this stage. It is already familiar to the Senate. However, while the Bill seeks to promote visits to Australia by people from other countries, the range of discussion surely is related also to movement and visits within Australia. I do not think it is unimportant to refer to that aspect. Every State Government Tourist Bureau in its local efforts to promote travel within State borders is surely encouraging the kind of development which is planned in this Bill. Earlier today Senator Morris gave some statistics relating to Queensland. I should like to take a moment of the Senate's time to look at the position as it affects South Australia. I have some figures supplied by the South Australian Government Tourist Bureau for 1965. Estimated arrivals from various points of entry into South Australia, such as the upper Murray, the Western Australian border, the north east and the south east areas - those who come by air, road and rail- add up to a total of 627,000. As one would expect, the Tourist Bureau works on the basis of tourist days, or staying days. For the twelve months in question South Australia had a total of four million tourist days. In round figures the Bureau points out that this represents something like 627,000 visitors a year who are spending S28m on the basis of a daily expenditure of $7. This is interesting to a South Australian particularly when one sees from the Bureau's figures that in the previous year there were some 500.000 visitors who spent $101m. The figures I have cited do not take into account all movement in South Australia because many people pass through the State into and out of the Northern Territory, which is a not inconsiderable tourist attraction today. I make the point that although South Australia has many good reasons why people should visit it, the State does not have such attractions as the Great Barrier Reef, a snowfield or some of the advantages of the more populous States. As I have said, the figures I have mentioned relate to South Australia. They surely must be multiplied many times for the whole of Australia. The movement of visitors creates both a local demand for travel services and a critical choice amongst the travelling community. I do not mean critical in terms of being unreasonable. Because people are able to travel they obtain a certain critical ability. This creates a better range of amenities not only for themselves but also for overseas travellers. When the Commission is established and is devising ways and means of fulfilling its charter and discharging its stewardship, as outlined in the title of the Bill and in the Bill's clauses, we may well ask what it has to sell to induce people to come to Australia. Our various tourist attractions are well known and I do not think there is any point or value in taking the time of the Senate to mention any of them now. We know our main tourist attractions, but what does the tourist want? What does the overseas traveller want? No doubt this is a subject of debate and discussion. Recently in the United States an estimate was made of this kind of thing and it was revealed that a traveller spent 25% of his money on accommodation, 20.8% in shops, 17.8% in restaurants and another 17.8% on entertainment. 1 imagine that those percentages reflect the habits of most people who are on the move. It has been estimated by the Australian Hotels Association that by 1968 Australia will require almost another 3,000 first-class rooms to cater for travellers. With this emphasis on accommodation 1 have been very interested to study part of an account given to the national executive of the Australian Hotels Association following an international convention in the United States of America. The Australian representative, Mr Stewart, of Queensland, in giving an account of his visit to this international convention said: In particular relation to hotels 1 was able to give a good deal of guidance, and, among many other questions two in particular, recurred frequently and are worthy of special note. They were firstly that travel agents frequently had inquiries for comfortable accommodation at a price below our top echelon hotels, and secondly, many people wished to avoid staying at hotels which were replicas of American hotels. This, I found in my recent movement across the world, is a point of view quite frequently expressed. Naturally, in a country so travel conscious and so hotel conscious as the United States, it follows that their great chains of magnificent hotels are finding their roots in many of the great cities and tourist centres of the world. To people who have to travel for business it is probably a matter of very great convenience for them to move from one to the other of a particular chain of hotels. But it is interesting that people interested in the travel industry have drawn attention to the fact that many people wish to avoid staying at hotels which are simply replicas of the big hotels at home. Mr Stewart pointed out that the latter group were not particularly price conscious but wished to stay in hotels which for them had a foreign atmosphere. One hopes that no Australian hotel, whatever one's experience might have been, would provide a foreign atmosphere as we understand the word 'foreign'; but the point these particular people were emphasising was that they were anxious to be in a position where they could meet Australian fellow guests. I suppose none of us goes very far before running across somebody who draws attention to a list of things wrong with Australian factors that are deterrents to tourism and it is interesting that the consensus of travel agents was that factors that were quoted as deterrents to tourism in Australia were not, in their view, deterrents. They said that basically the tourist wished to see the country as it is. They said, for instance, that the often condemned liquor laws were not considered to be a deterrent because the liquor laws in the United States vary more from State to State than they do in Australia. It is interesting to have these observations on hotels from an international conference in view of the fact that tourists spend a considerable portion ot their money on accommodation. I suggest that in what I might call our 'high powered search for comfort' for our travellers we should not loose our identity. I do not ..uggest over emphasis on whatever you or 1 may consider to be our Australian identity. We all have our opinion of the Australian identity. I suggest there are ways and means by which the traveller can be encouraged to come to this country and enjoy, shall I say, the comforts, conveniences and facilities for him to be able to move and speak without at the same time experiencing just replicas of any other country. I want to take this a little further by suggesting that it is our duty to seek out ways and means of encouraging opportunities for the visitor to meet our own people as individuals either in our homes or in places of entertainment. In a further study of a magazine which is interested in world travel, I find reference to the fact that countries which develop what they call home host schemes' are amongst those with the best record for providing visitor satisfaction. There is no better way to make a p." -.on feel that his trip has been worth while than to enable him to establish a per on to person contact in the country he is \ siting. This is what he will remember and he will look forward to the time when he can reciprocate. May I take this a little further by underlining a point of view that was put by Mr Basil Atkinson of the Australian National Travel Association to whom reference was made earlier in the debate? When he was speaking on one occasion, he made the point that to develop true understanding between peoples we must find the means to speak a language understandable to all. The need to adopt a new approach to languages was clear when it was considered in the light of the relationship between the mushrooming of the world population on the one hand and the number of international travellers on the other, ft has been reliably forecast that in ten years the number of international tourists could reach 250 million, which would be 51% of the world's population. Might I paraphrase that by observing that we may expect the tourist explosion to outboom the population explosion? Relate this, if you will, to the problem of languages and it will be readily seen that with so many more people moving round the earth trying to understand and to make themselves understood it becomes imperative that some thought should be given to this. 1268 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - What about Esperanto? 1268 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - Yes. the question of Esperanto has been raised in this place, but there does not seem to be a great deal of enthusiasm for it. Languages are a matter of very great importance so far as communications are concerned. The world of immigration is not unrelated to the world of travel because, as most honourable senators know, the Department of Immigration is the very Department that facilitates our movement, that sees to the provision of our visas and passports so that we may have access to other countries. Similar departments do these things in other places. In its other spheres of activity, the Department deals with many tens of thousands of travellers who come into this country under other auspices and for other reasons altogether, but at the same time, questions of language and communication loom large. I do not suppose many of us who are able to speak only English would be prepared or indeed would have the time to study a second language. 1268 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - Most of us can speak bad language. 1268 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - That may be so. It may be that if we encourage some other people to embark upon a study of some other language or languages so that with this vast movement of people which, according to all statistics, research and forecasts, is going to increase across our country, we would probably be providing one of the greatest encouragements for people to come to Australia. They would be encouraged by the knowledge they would be able to communicate with us. As there were further movements, so would we be able to join in a total programme. In conclusion, the Commission around which this legislation revolves is not only concerned with the promotion of tourism and travel to Australia. It is involved, also, in the total philosophy of world wide movement that is going on now and which will increase very rapidly in the future. The Commission will be the main instrument responsible for promoting an attractive travel image. It will have to be aware of the social implications of this work. I think all honourable senators will appreciate that the introduction into a comparatively small community of large numbers of people who may be of different standards and who may have different requirements could involve a number of social situations. There could even be social problems. I like to think that Australians are sufficiently sophisticated to meet changes and situations of this kind, but at least someone needs to be geared to it. The question of foreign relations and ils extension to human relations and public relations are tied up in the Commission's activities. The responsibility of the Government does not stop with the formation of the Commission. Many things will ultimately influence not only the pattern of travel but the consideration which the Commission gives to whatever comes before it. The length of the working week, the period of a paid vacation, the whole matter of long service leave, the arrangement of staggered holidays, foreign currency regulations and even customs regulations - all these things will influence the employment and attitude of the traveller. They will move with the attitude of the traveller who comes from abroad. So, we have gone beyond the leisure stage, Wc have gone beyond the stage of travel for pleasure. We are a world of travellers for one reason or another. The Australian Government, in setting up the Australian Tourist Commission not only to encourage the promotion of visits but also to make such arrangements as are necessary and to work with travel agents and travel agencies, is endorsing what is already going on in the world and taking its place with the many authorities that are engaged in and looking after this kind of travel. If the opportunity arises, Mr President, I may say something in Committee on one or two matters that, are concerning me, but, in general terms, I wish to leave my contribution to the debate at that, I support the measure before the Senate. 1269 KPG Queensland 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - Mr President,I wish to support the remarks of the previous speakers on this side of the House. I want to examine in some detail certain aspects of the second reading speech presented to this chamber by the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) and to look at some of the problems that I feel we will encounter in this important Australian industry. First of all, the Minister stated: The purpose of this Bill is to establish an Australian Tourist Commission for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia, and travel in Australia, by people from other countries. This seems to be the paramount intention of the Bill. The tourist industry itself is a very important industry. At the present time, it is capable of great expansion. The earnings from tourism for the financial year 1965-66 totalled at least $65m. Some sec tions of the income from the tourist industry are, for all practical purposes, hidden, and it is quite impossible to get the exact figures. However the stage has been reached where the tourist industry is now Australia's ninth most important source of foreign exchange. This fact was admitted by the Minister when presenting the Bill. One of the largest organisations associated with tourism is the Australian National Travel Association. An examination of the figures reveals that since 1952-53 grants totalling almost $5m have been paid by the Government to ANTA. This total includes the grant allocated in 1966-67. which is $862,000. That is a large sum in anybody's language. We are advised by the Minister that a survey commissioned by this organisation and carried out by a group of United States consultants regarding the tourist situation in Australia and Australia's tourist potential produced the estimate that by 1975, not many years from now, the tourist industry will attract to this country more than 607,000 visitors. The Minister in his second reading speech said: The Commission will be empowered to work with the industries servicing tourists, such as travel agents, transport operators and others-- I wish to refer to this sentence in the Minister's speech in order to place it on record. I think that it is important to the aspects that 1 am developing in my contribution to this debate. The Minister says that the Commission will work with travel agents, transport operators and others - who, both in Australia and overseas, play a vital commercial role in stimulating an overseas visitors interest in coming to Australia and facilitating his visit by planning his tour, making the necessary travel and accommodation bookings for him and providing the whole range of services needed to ensure that the tourist is properly looked after. As 1 develop my contribution to the debate, I want to point out that in addition to these people there are a number of Australian interstate tourists and others travelling intrastate who also need to be catered for. I hope that the terms of the activities of the Commission will be wide enough to encompass all aspects of the tourist industry. The Minister went on to say: The Commission may produce magazines, pamphlets, brochures and other publications to further stimulate this interest. The Minister's speech continues: It may also produce sales aids for the travel agents and other industries concerned with attracting and servicing the tourists, so that these enterprises will not only be stimulated into selling Australia but will be assisted by informative literature spelling out the attractions Australia possesses- I mention these points because 1 wish to enlarge on them at a later stage. I will be quite critical regarding some of them. A further matter is that there is indecision at the moment as to how much money the establishment of this Commission will cost the Australian taxpayer. I hope the Minister, in his reply to the debate will help the Senate with information on this point. I am not quibbling about the fact that we have to spend money in order to attract industries. This applies to not only the tourist industry but also other industries. But I think that this aspect of the Bill is rather vague. Let me quote the words of the Minister to emphasise my point. He said: lt is not possible, of course, at this early stage to indicate the finance which the Government may make available for the Commission's first year of operations, which for practical purposes will begin in July this year. As I have already indicated, the allocation to the Australian National Travel Association in 1966-67 was $862,000. The final reference to the Minister's speech that I wish to make is contained in the last two paragraphs. The Minister said: Just as important is the development of the many amenities, services and facilities inside Australia needed to ensure that the tourist is. effectively entered for during his visit. Massive capital investments will be needed from the industries concerned. 1 do .not underestimate the difficulties and problems which may be faced in mounting the efforts necessary to meet the expected demands. State governments also will be aware of this problem. The Government hopes that its decisions in the overseas promotional field will stimulate equivalent decisions within Australia so that the total network of Commonwealth, State and private enterprise interests involved will work together to achieve the rich potential which Australia possesses in this field. Ithink that the last sentence is very important. Within the Australian tourist industry some great shortcomings indeed are to be found. Unfortunately, some sections of private enterprise are involved in the tourist industry purely with a profit motive. Now, in any established business the desire to make a profit is very important, but frequently in the tourist industry exploitation of the tourist takes place so that the profit margin is much greater than it should be. During certain seasons of the year - may I use the Australian term - the rake-off is much greater than it ought to be if the tourists are to be encouraged. Timetables for major tourist bus lines - not all of them, but some of thom - are so light that the drivers cannot allow their passengers to have a really good look at points of interest while travelling from one part of the country to another. We should remember that overseas tourists make up a large proportion of the people who go on conducted bus tours. Only yesterday, a serious accident involving a tourist bus occurred in the Northern Territory. From time to time such accidents happen. Are they caused because the firms conducting these tours force their drivers to stick to timetables that are not within the bounds of safety on the very poor roads that exist in most of the Australian States? Only a few months ago I followed a tourist bus and witnessed certain incidents. Mr Acting Deputy President, I made a note of the name of the owner of the bus, of its registration number and of the date on which I made my observations. In 35 mile an hour zones it was quite common to see the bus travelling at speeds up to 50 miles an hour. The driver ignored traffic whether or not he had the right of way. Double lines seemed not to exist for him. At one stage, apparently in an endeavour to keep to an exacting timetable, he passed a large transport on a bad stretch of road. Partly by good driving but more by luck than anything else he was able to keep his bus on the road. Road tours represent a big part of the tourist industry and most of them are conducted by private enterprise. If we are to attract tourists to our roads we must see that safety requirements are observed on all services. I mention these matters because I believe them to be very important. For every tourist who is killed in an accident involving a tourist vehicle another six will be frightened away from road services and will use other methods of moving about the country. Much the same thing applies to conducted air tours, particularly in small aircraft. Safety margins and proper timetables sometimes are not adhered to. If we are to develop a reputation as people who are able to look after tourists properly we must carefully watch this safety aspect, which is important. I hope that the proposed Australian Tourist Commission, in its examination of the problems associated with the tourist industry, will consider this problem of safety as well as other factors. We also have the big problem, particularly in the coastal areas, of tourist monopolies, which in their conduct of tourist services look only for the greatest possible profit. 1 do not condemn the making of profits, but I suggest that tourists should not be treated like sheep and subjected to what may be described as mass handling methods while they are forced through in droves, the only considerations being the extraction of the last possible penny from them and the provision of the minimum possible service. I propose to describe the sort of thing that I have known to happen in two or three instances. The facts can be checked by anyone who wishes to do so. Near Cairns, off the north Queensland coast, there is a resort known as Green Island. The launch service and the facilities there are conducted by an organisation that services boats and provides ferry services and the like. This organisation has a virtual monopoly of tourist centres off the north Queensland coast from Magnetic Island north, not only in the transport of tourists but also in the servicing of the islands themselves. Tickets for a visit to Green Island may be obtained at a number of places. Not many months ago, when I wanted to show a southern visitor the tourist attractions of the north, I arranged to purchase tickets for a visit to Green Island from an agency at Cairns. I was assured that the tickets would afford us all the available facilities. I particularly checked on this because I wished to make the most of the opportunity to show the southern visitor around so that he would go away impressed. We were not told by the travel agency, however, that lunch at the Island had to be taken in relays. We were told very abruptly when we went for lunch at a time when we thought it was available that our tickets were not sufficient to admit us for lunch and that we had to check at the counter and get a chit. This is the sort of thing that jars tourists. We finally got the chit and took it to the dining room only to be told that we would have to wait another hour for lunch because the large number of people wanting a meal could not be adequately catered for. We decided to go to the lounge off the main bar for a drink. We found that we could not get ginger ale there but we were told that we could go to the shop where soft drinks were sold, buy some and take it to the lounge area to drink it. The tickets that we held entitled us to see a film that was to be shown in a special theatre on th; island. This was probably one of the most uncomfortable theatres that one could find anywhere in Australia. The film shown was lauded as being the only one of its kind in existence. If it was, thank God. One can see on television many films that show most of the things shown in the film that we saw at Green Island, though they may not be exactly the same. Contrary to what we had been told, our tickets did not admit us to the film and we had to pay 40c each to view it. After seeing it, we lined up for our lunch, very hungry and getting rather testy, only to find that the menu was limited to this or that. There was nothing beyond this and nothing beyond that. Only two courses were available. I now come a little further south to Magnetic Island, the tropical isle. It is a very beautiful place indeed. Some of those on the island who cater for tourists are doing their very best for them, but others only try to exploit tourists. The Island is only a few miles from Townsville, just off the coast, but there is no night boat service from that city. Surely to goodness navigation rules can be relaxed - if they are the reason for the lack of a night boat service, though I doubt it - if we wish to attract overseas visitors. A night boat service would be convenient for the people living on the Island also, because they would then be able to attend late entertainments on the mainland. I do not condemn those who provide the present boat services. If local residents do not want a night service, that is fair enough for them. But tourists will want such a service and it ought to be provided for them. Indeed, it will have to be provided if we wish to attract them. 1272 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator Poyser - The same people who run the boat services conduct other facilities. 1272 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - Yes. This sort of thing is a particular problem in the tourist industry. One can find it repeated many times over in the coastal tourist areas. However, ali visitors from overseas do not want to look only at the beaches, though I suppose Australia's beaches are better than those to be found anywhere else. Many overseas tourists want to have a look at the outback and visit centres such as Bourke, in New South Wales, Mount Lyell, in Tasmania, and Mount lsa, in Queensland. They wish particularly to see the cattle and sheep country. 1 know from talking to them that they do not want to see only the bright lights on the coast. But what do we find when we get a few miles inland, as well as at many coastal centres? I can describe the situation in my own State best because I am most familiar with it. At places like Cloncurry some of the hotels do not yet have septic systems or sewerage, and one is forced to resort to the old earth closet located many yards from the hotel building. I do not criticise the hotel owners in general because I know that the ambition of most of them is to provide first rate facilities wherever they can. However, there is a minority of owners who are not interested in providing proper facilities. All they want is to take most of their money over the bar. They seek only a continual increase in their takings over the bar and they are not interested in providing accommodation of a standard that will attract tourists from either interstate or overseas. This Government and the banks are supposed to be interested in developing Australia. The banks ought to be able to provide credit for extensions of premises and for facilities that cannot be afforded by small companies or private individuals. In motels throughout Australia rates charged for accommodation are exorbitant. There are hardly any exceptions to this. In many, facilities are sub-standard and service is non-existent. Some overseas visitors are fairly affluent. Money is no real problem to them. They want to spend their money and have a good holiday, at the same time enjoying some measure of luxury if they can afford it. How many motels or, for that matter, hotels, throughout Australia have air conditioning? This might not worry anybody in Tasmania very much, but lack of air conditioning is a very great inconvenience. Air conditioning should be provided in places, for instance, north of the border between New South Wales and Queensland. It should be provided in Queensland, the Northern Territory, Western Australia and in some parts of South Australia and New South Wales. I suppose I can say that I have stayed in motels in probably all of the capital cities in Australia and in all of the major provincial cities in my own State. I have also stayed in motels in provincial cities in Tasmania, Victoria and, to a lesser degree, in New South Wales. Only about one in every ten has air conditioning. Again we find that many of the motels and a lot of the hotels north of the Tropic of Capricorn do not have a ceiling fan or a fan that will allow the air to circulate so that a reasonable degree of comfort can be obtained in order to sleep. Heating apparatus is essential in the south. I know that my Tasmanian colleagues will appreciate this point. A couple of years ago 1 stayed in a hotel in Hobart which was supposed to be one of the better hotels in that city. I froze all night because there was no heating system in the room. I complained bitterly about this next morning and was told that if I had gone to the office and had asked for a radiator I could have got one. Why was not this part of the equipment in the room in the middle of winter? Another night I stayed at Kempsey in New South Wales. The same sort of thing happened. There was no heating whatsoever in the middle of winter, ft is cold enough in the autumn and in the spring without having to put up with this discomfort in the winter. How often does one find refrigeration in hotel or motel rooms? Of course some of the better hotels provide refrigeration in the rooms or provide room service. No motel in Australia, unless it is worked in conjunction with a hotel, provides any sort of room service. People who come to this country expect a better type of service because, as I said before, they are used to a more affluent standard of living than we are. Imagine putting these people in a hotel room in the north of Queensland in the middle of summer that had no air conditioning, no proper fan system and no refrigeration. Sometimes there will be a jug in the room. Apparently biscuits are a very expensive item because not even two biscuits are supplied. Sometimes there will be sugar but no tea. Sometimes there will be a packet of coffee that has been given away by some firm as a sample. I am not criticising all motels and hotels, but there are many which lack the facilities that encourage tourists. In many instances when people go out to a function at night and they return to their hotel room - this does not apply so much to the larger hotels in the metropolitan areas, but it can be found in most hotels in country areas - they find that there are no facilities at night with which to make a cup of coffee or tea. During the past few days a number of people who have visited Canberra have stayed at one of the largest and newest motels in this city. I will tell honourable senators about a few of the things that have happened to these people. This motel is crowded with tourists. I am so disgusted with the service that has been provided to these people that I shall name the motel. It is the Deakin Motel. I know of one person who stayed there and who was supplied with three breakfasts in a single room yesterday morning. His colleague who was staying in the room next to him did not. get any breakfast at all. In addition, another person whom I know was booked into that motel for two nights. He did not get any breakfast on the first morning but because of the accommodation shortage in this city he did not complain. When he went to the office he was told thai he was no longer booked in for the following night. There are a lot of people in Canberra at the moment who are attending a convention and a lot of them are slaying at this motel. Another instance concerned several people who ordered breakfast for 7 o'clock in the morning but at 8.30 a.m. it still had not been served. These people were going out and they were unable to get a meal. Whether these people were tourists or whether they were otherwise engaged, this is no way in which to encourage people to this city. I do not think this is good enough. We are trying to attract people from overseas to this country, but if they, receive this sort of treatment do we think that they will return? This does not apply only to this particular motel. There are a couple of other places in this city which provide similar service. The tourist industry is one of the best industries in Canberra. I must refer to another person who got marmalade for breakfast but no toast on which to spread it. He is saving the marmalade in the hope that the toast will turn up in a couple of days time. As I said earlier, these conditions do not apply only to Canberra, Queensland and Victoria. They apply to the whole of Australia. We speak about encouraging tourists to this country. The Australian Tourist Commission has a tremendous job in front of it. I hope that it faces up to the realities of the situation. I want to refer now to the so called caravan parks which operate from one end of Australia to the other. In many instances, these parks are run with the minimum of facilities at the maximum overnight charge. Some of them are situated on the outskirts of town in mosquito ridden swamps. People hire out caravans. Some three or four years ago I remember staying in a caravan on the Diamond Coast of New South Wales. When the rains came water came into the caravan not only through the roof but also through the walls. We were paying approximately £8 per week for this caravan. It had a stove that could be filled with some sort of spirit, but probably the only way in which a person could light it was by putting Bundaberg rum into it because nothing else seemed to burn. The refrigerator operated at about half freezing rate. These are instances of which I have personal knowledge. There are many other instances in which people intend to stay for three or four days in order to see the local sights, but instead of doing so they are glad to get out next morning and camp by a creek somewhere because it is more comfortable. I appeal to the Commission to look at the possibility of encouraging the Government to give financial aid in this regard. In this country we have some of the best scenery in the world. Some of it is unmatched in any other country. 1 refer in particular to our local scenery. If people want to drive to the top of Mount Kosciusko in the summer season they risk their lives and their motor car. There are no facilities anywhere along this road until one reaches the top of the mountain. When one reaches the top one sees a symbol there that has been battered by vandals and has never been repaired. There are no toilet facilities and no picnic facilities except at a couple of places which are situated on small creeks lower down the mountain. Another outstanding example is the Mulligan Highway in north Queensland. One can reach the Mulligan Highway either through Mount Molloy going in from Mossman or through Mareeba. There is something like 250 miles of road, of which only about ten miles is bitumen - it might be a little longer than that. I might stand corrected on that particular mileage but there is a great deal of dirt road. There are many rocks sticking up on this road that will ruin motor car tyres. We are trying to encourage people to go into this country to look at Australia and at some of the more primitive parts of this country, if we want to describe it that way. The Bloomfield Highway which runs down to the Bloomfield River is a complete exercise in road safety, lt is virtually impossible to negotiate the inclines and the creeks. Yet situated around this road is scenery that cannot be bettered anywhere in Australia. For the expenditure of a comparatively small sum of money, by way of a Commonwealth grant, this road could be carried through to Cairns. This would be one way in which we could attract people to this particular area of Australia where the scenery is absolutely fantastic. The Government could probably pay for the road as a result of the access made available to the worthwhile timber stands in this area. Some twelve months ago in the middle of the tourist season I took a party of visitors to lunch at the local kiosk at Lake Barrine in my State. We waited an hour for service. I saw visitors from interstate and overseas drive away disgusted. The water in the lake was magnificent. The facilities provided at the lakeside by private enterprise were absolutely atrocious. 1274 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - The visit would not be enjoyable on an empty stomach. 1274 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - It certainly would not. On that occasion and on other occasions I heard people say that they would not go there again unless they took their own sandwiches or hot pies. I am deeply critical of this sort of thing. While we talk about encouraging people to visit our tourist resorts we are actually discouraging them. The motel to which I have referred accommodated more disgruntled people in that few days than would be found in six other motels around the city. Is that encouraging tourists? I turn now to examine some of our transport facilities. In Queensland we have the air conditioned 'Sunlander' train. Other States have air conditioned trains, but tourists do not always travel by them. Often they are told in advance that the seats on those trains are booked out. So they board trains without air conditioning and travel under most primitive conditions. Trains which do not have meal facilities aboard pull up at stations with little refreshment rooms where travellers are served cold sausages that are probably cooked and recooked about sue times in a week to avoid throwing them away. A few pieces of crumbly, dry toast are served. The pies available were probably made two or three days before. Why cannot we have decent meal facilities available at railway stations where stops are made for meals? I appreciate that with today's high speed trains not so many stops are made for meals as were made a few years ago, but for heaven's sake improve the facilities at stations where meals are served so that people may be encouraged to revisit the areas. I invite honourable senators now to study some of the people who make a quick quid at seaside resorts and other holiday places. At holiday times they put up their rentals beyond the means of people who wish to take their kiddies for two or three weeks holiday. Their prices are exorbitant and people are unable to pay them. But the advertisements still appear in the provincial newspapers saying: 'Come here. We have all the facilities.' Of course, when the visitors arrive they cannot find half of the advertised attractions. They get touched because of the rentals that are charged and must put up with primitive toilet facilities and living conditions, including broken down stoves and refrigerators. Yet according to the travel brochures the proprietors at holiday resorts are doing a magnificent job. I wish to criticise travel agencies; not all of them, but a minority. In many places they are not properly organised. The Queensland Tourist Bureau operates a fairly effective service in advertising holiday resorts and places to visit, but a minority of private travel agents do not do this job adequately. I am not criticising Senator Ian Wood. Some travel agents leave much to be desired. This Bill provides for the establishment of the Australian Tourist Commission. This organisation should operate effectively. Let us improve our roads to places that tourists arc likely to visit. Let us improve the facilities at those places. Everyone has a role to play in this regard. The banks should provide loans for the construction of proper facilities. The people who run holiday resorts ought to take a more personal interest in people to see that the services for which visitors pay are in fact received by them. The Opposition wants to see massive grants by the Commonwealth Government for tourism, if they can be organised, so that roads, bridges, highways and other facilities can be improved. In Queensland, travellers by road at least have drinking water and fireplaces available to them. Toilets are provided; in many instances they are a bit primitive, but they are there. I have not seen provided in many other parts of Australia facilities equal to those provided in Queensland. In New South Wales fireplaces are provided but only in isolated instances is drinking water available. I am referring to areas away from the towns. State governments can play their part, through the provision of better facilities in encouraging people to travel. I hope that my contribution to this debate will be noted by the Government and that the Commission not only fosters the tourist industry but also ensures that people who are currently being exploited get a fair go. 1275 KBL Queensland 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - I ask for leave to make my remarks at a later stage. Leave granted; debate adjourned. 1275 adjournment 1275 Motion (by Senator Anderson) proposed: That the Senate do now adjourn. 1275 KTA New South Wales 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - I wish to refer to an answer 1 received today from the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson), who represents the Postmaster-General (Mr Hulme) in this chamber, to a question that I placed on the notice paper two or three weeks ago. My question concerned the fact that no longer does prominent journalist and well known television personality Miss Dita Cobb appear on the Australian Broadcasting Commission programme 'Let's Find Out'. Having studied the Minister's answer and knowing something of the facts of this case I believe that political influence on the part of somebody in the Government or fear of political pressure on the part of somebody in the ABC has brought about the decision that Miss Cobb is not to continue to be invited to appear as a guest artist on the programme. The Minister, or the Australian Broadcasting Commission in providing him with the answer, has attempted to cover up that situation. In his answer the Minister told me that Miss Cobb made forty appearances as a guest artist on the programme 'Let's Find Out'. The Minister stated that this radio programme is broadcast on five days a week and that the twenty-five people named in his answer were all engaged as guests for one programme at a time. Miss Cobb took part in this programme on forty different occasions, and it is well known that she appeared on a Tuesday morning at 9.30. The Minister has stated that the ABC changes the panel whenever it becomes desirable to inject fresh thoughts and points of view into the programme. I could understand that situation if a guest artist were not attracting adequate or proper ratings, but I think that if the Minister or the ABC checked the ratings for 'Let's Find Out' it would be found that for the last Tuesday on which Miss Cobb appeared the overall rating for the programme was an estimated 88,000 listeners. For the Monday it was 54,000 listeners; for the Wednesday, 44,000; for the Thursday, 78,000; and for the Friday, 60,000. So, on a comparison with any other day on which the programme was being broadcast- 1275 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Anderson - Where did the honourable senator obtain those rating figures? 1275 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - They have been provided to me. I think the Minister could obtain them from the Australian Broadcasting Control Board or any other source from which they might be available to the Postmaster-General. On the ratings that have been supplied to me, if they are correct, the fact is that' Miss Cobb appeared on the programme on the Tuesday and on that day the ratings were better than those for any other comparable day. 1276 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - She would be more enjoyable than Andrea, would she not? 1276 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - I would tend to agree with the honourable senator. Despite what I have said, the Minister says that the ABC changes the panel whenever it becomes desirable io inject fresh thoughts and points of view into the programme. Yet suddenly, after forty appearances on the programme and notwithstanding the high rating to which I have referred, one of the guests on the panel is not asked to reappear. As can be seen from the Minister's answer, her last appearance was on 14th March. Frankly, I do not accept the reason stated by the Minister for her nonappearance because, in her capacity as a journalist as distinct from her capacity as a radio personality, on 6th March - eight days before she was not invited to reappear on the programme - in an article that she wrote in the Sydney 'Sun', she sent the ABC up. I do not agree for one moment' with what she wrote, but it was as follows: I hope we do get Utzon back. I think it is more than generous of him to want to forgive and forget. I have become very fond of that Opera House? Remember how I hated the idea of spending all that money on it when it was needed for so many other things? Well, driving across the bridge it looks so marvellous. I have succumbed to its beauty. I only hope the ABC will see its way clear to drop the bit of almost blackmail it is perpetrating and let the big hall be used for more than just symphony concerts which after all only cater for a minority group. Surely the ABC, who live on the taxes of the community, should not be so piddlingly one-sided. 1 think they are so heavily over-staffed that it is virtually impossible for them to ever be out of 8 muddle. I am sure more than half the people they employ are completely unnecessary. Commercial stations manage to do a pretty good job without all those managers and odds and sods. Someone from the ABC once told me that, if all broadcasting and televising stopped today, half the staff would not even be aware of it. They would go on for ten years having their meetings, their cups of tea and their bits of cosiness. My, we must be an awfully rich country to bc able to afford to keep such luxuries going! I reiterate that 1 am not agreeing with what Miss Cobb said about the ABC. Generally speaking, 1 believe that it does a pretty good job, although there is ample room for improvement. Miss Cobb wrote that article on 6th March. To me it is very significant that her last appearance on the programme was on 14th March - a mere eight days after that article was written. [ say quite frankly that I would have much more respect for the Minister and for the Australian Broadcasting Commission, which provided the answer for the Minister, if he had openly said in his reply that Miss Cobb was no longer invited to appear on the programme because she had criticised the Commission in her newspaper article. The Minister gave the reason for her non-appearance as: The ABC changes the panel whenever it becomes desirable to inject fresh thoughts and points of view into the programme. This is really gilding the lily and is not a reason that will be swallowed' by the listening public. Frankly, it seems to me that Miss Cobb, in her article, was loo fresh for the ABC. 1276 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - 1 want to point to anomalies in the navigation regulations that are now causing a dispute on a New Zealand ship, the 'Koromiko' It is at Port Osborne, which is adjacent to Port Adelaide in South Australia. The ship was loading gypsum at Thevenard on the west coast of South Aus.dia. The gypsum was loaded into the hold of the ship by a chute. The vessel was only half loaded and had to go to Port Adelaide to take on additional cargo consisting of motor car bodies. The gypsum had to be spread - this is termed trimming - to form a flat bottom so that the motor car bodies could be placed on top of it. If this had been done at the Thevenard wharf, as it should have been, members of the Waterside Workers Federation would have done the work at award rates of pay and would have observed the appropriate safety regulations. The regulations provide that an internal combustion engine cannot be used in the hold of a ship if explosives are stored there and that such an engine cannot be used in the hold unless sufficient ventilation is provided. Blowers are used to exhaust the fumes from the hold. Either the company or the ship's captain decided not to trim the gypsum at the wharf. The ship was taken out to sea with a bulldozer in the hold and a 44 gallon drum of petrol, which would be used by the bulldozer. The local owner of the bulldozer and his son of school age were employed on a sub-contract basts. The owner worked for thirty-six hours without a break. His son had to knock off at nine o'clock at night because he had to go to school at nine o'clock the next morning. The members of the crew of the Koromiko' decided at a meeting at Port Adelaide that they would not work on the ship unless the captain gave a guarantee that there would bc no further open hatches at seu and that the regulations would be observed. They decided that they would take the ship to New Zealand only on those conditions. The dispute caused the port authorities to inquire into the allegations. The company gave an assurance to the men that, if regulations had been broken, action would he taken immediately to ensure that they were not broken again. 1277 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - Was this a New Zealand ship or an Australian ship? 1277 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - A New Zealand ship. The lives of members o. the crew were endangered. There was a possibility of fire and explosion on the ship. A written guarantee was given that any breach of regulations would be immediately rectified. The port authority who was investigating in South Australia on behalf of the Department of Shipping and Transport advised me that he would agree this practice was undesirable and dangerous, and that if there were a breach of regulations he would recommend prosecutions. However, he very much doubled whether there had been a breach of regulations insofar as the regulations refer to offences committed by the person in charge of the loading and unloading of a ship. He pointed out that he did not know how he could legally interpret that the ship was loading or unloading when it was at sea. although at all times it was in Australian territorial waters and therefore under the control and powers of the Australian Government. The point is that we have regulations that govern the loading and unloading of ships, but this new practice to provide for a cheaper method of labour supply, which involves taking the ship to sea to do certain of the trimming, seems to be outside the regulations. This has caused the dispute, which will continue until these guarantees are met. I ask the Minister to give urgent consideration to this matter. I found it necessary to mention it on the adjournment of the House because I could not expect the Minister at question time to give a reply off the cuff, and I realised that if I had put the question on the notice paper in the dying stages of the session it would be unlikely that 1 would get a reply. Obviously, as no-one could justify this action, which endangers the life and limb of people on this vessel, regulations should be promulgated to cover the circumstances. The crew and the appropriate union believe that a full coverage exists to prevent this practice if the ship were loading or unloading or if the trimming were taking place while the vessel was tied to a wharf, but they think that it cannot be classified as loading or unloading when the ship is at sea. I ask the Minister to give urgent consideration to this matter and. although 1 assume that this dispute will he over, action along the lines I suggest will prevent a recurrence. 1277 JQQ Victoria 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - It is interesting to note that Senator Cavanagh has brought forward this matter at such a late hour, especially in view of the fact that the loading of gypsum at South Australian ports for transport to New Zealand has been going on for some time. That is why I asked the honourable senator whether it was an Australian ship or a New Zealand ship. For some years it has been the practice when the loading is taking place from South Australian outports to take the ship to sea where the gypsum can be shaken down a bit. It is true that an internal combusion engine machine - to use the honourable senator's phrase - is shipped on board the vessel to trim the gypsum in order to get an even settlement of the cargo while the ship is at sea. It has been claimed, and I have no reason to doubt it, that this is the most effective method of getting an even trim. The machine used is an English product, known as a Ransome. It has a small bulldozer blade, similar to the ones used in gardens; it would not be two-thirds the size of Senator Cavanagh's desk. The ship moves from the outport to Port Adelaide. Then they trim the ship with the deep heavy-weighted cargo lying at the bottom of the hold. This is done not only to ensure that the ship is adequately trimmed but because the New Zealand waterside workers demand a specified distance between the top of the gypsum cargo and the underbeams. If this height is not available they refuse to unload the motor cars that have been loaded in South Australia. It seems to me to be most extraordinary that this caused an industrial dispute when this custom had been operating for some years on New Zealand ships operating from Port Adelaide to New Zealand. Suddenly after these events have become common practice an industrial dispute has emerged to tie up a ship. I do not see why the Commonwealth Navigation Act or the regulations under that Act should be applied in an Australian port to a matter that relates to a New Zealand ship. This is an illustration of a phony industrial demarcation dispute which is an attempt to overcome a practice which has been accepted by the crews of these ships in South Australian waters and by the Waterside Workers Federation for many years. 1278 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - in reply - I will refer first to the last matter mentioned. All 1 can say is that I will immediately bring to the attention of the Minister for Shipping and Transport (Mr Freeth) the comments of Senator Cavanagh and the supplementary remarks by Senator Cormack which gave some background to the procedure referred to. If the Minister thinks a reply is required, I will endeavour to get it before the Senate rises for the recess. Senator McClellandcommented on a reply which I gave him today to question No. 154 on the notice paper. It seems to me that the honourable senator is making a judgment on the reply given by the Postmaster-General (Mr Hulme) about why Miss Dita Cobb was not retained on a programme called 'Let's Find Out'. I gather that he clearly suggests that this person wrote her own obituary for the Australian Broadcasting Commission because of something she said about the Opera House. I do not accept that as a reality. My impression of the answer given by the Postmaster-General was that it appeared to be perfectly simple and straight forward. No doubt it would have been supplied by the ABC to the Minister. Five questions were asked, and the first four answers were factual answers which named the people who appeared on the programme, mentioned the number of times Miss Cobb had appeared, and gave the date of her last performance on the programme. The final answer stated, with what I thought was sensible candour, that the Commission changes the panel whenever it considers it desirable to inject fresh points of view into the programme. I think that was a reasonable statement. 1278 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Did he question the truth of it? 1278 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I do not think the truth of it could be questioned, because the statement that the Commission changes the panel obviously fits in with the other answers. I would not think there was anything sinister in that. It would not be the first time in history that a person has gone off a programme. In allt ypes of programmes people come on and go off, and the injection of new ideas and thoughts is a normal process of programming. I would not think for one moment that there was any suggestion that this person was taken off the programme because she committed the unpardonable sin of criticising her employers. I would not dream that this could happen. 1278 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - She was not an employee; she was a guest. 1278 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - She was an employee in the sense that she was on the programme. It is ridiculous to suggest that this should happen because of some comment about the Opera House. Goodness me, there are about two million people in Sydney and 1 suppose, every one has, at some time or other, made some kind of comment about the Opera House. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1278 23:50:00 Senate adjourned at 11.50 p.m.