1967-05-10 26 1 1 SENATE 1279 0 1967-05-10 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) took the chair at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. PURCHASE OF Fill AIRCRAFT Senator DEVITT- My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Air. In view of the frequent and startling increases in its cost and because of lack of conclusive evidence us to the suitability for Australian requirements of the Fill bomber, and further, because of performance problems and anticipated servicing costs, has the Government given any thought to cancelling the purchase contract for this aircraft until the whole question has been re-examined? What are the broad terms of the purchase agreement? Are we irrevocably committed to this purchase virtually on the basis of an open cheque arrangement? Senator McKELLAR- This question arouses some inquiry in my mind. Firstly, over the years the Government has been condemned for not having suitable modern aircraft. Now, when it is proposed to obtain what [ think can be fairly described as the most modern aircraft in the world and what is considered to be the most suitable aircraft for our needs, we are running into continual criticism on account of cost. This is a part of the price we have to pay for the defence of this country. We either get the most modern weapons and equipment that are available or we just lie down on the job we have of seeing that the equipment for the defence of this country is the most modern procurable. With regard to the rest of the question, I cannot answer it. I think it has been discussed pretty fully in the newspapers. If the honourable senator wants information additional to that which I have given him, 1 ask him to put the question on the notice paper. 1279 Questions 1279 1279 K2I WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator BRANSON - -I direct a question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. J crave your indulgence, Mr President, to preface my question by saying that I was most distressed to read this morning in one of the daily newspapers that Senator Ridley, who is on sick leave in Adelaide, is on a twenty-hour call to be rushed to Canberra to vote on the Post and Telegraph Rates Bill. Will the Leader of the Government assure me and the Senate that pairs are readily granted by both the Government and the Opposition in cases of illness? I ask for this clarification in order to put an end to any fears or distress thai Senator Ridley or his family may have suffered because of this report. 1279 KOW TASMANIA LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Since I have been Leader of this House no request for the granting of pairs for sickness or for any other legitimate excuse has ever been refused. I think we have had the same co-operation from the Opposition and 1 feel that this is how we will continue. 1279 Questions 1279 1279 JXR WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry. Following my question to the Minister last week concerning the Government's decision to extend Australian territorial waters, I now ask the Minister whether he is aware that a recent Moscow newspaper article reported that off the southern coast of Australia the Soviet had found dense commercial concentrations of fish and that its fleet would start intensive operations with modern vessels for both near surface and deep water fishing. In view of this report, has the Government made a decision as to whether the new territorial zone should be policed and. if so, how it should be policed? 1279 KTL NEW SOUTH WALES CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I made some inquiries of the Minister for Primary Industry and he has advised me thai he has not seen the original Soviet article referred to by the honourable senator but is aware of an article which appeared in the 'Australian' on 23rd March 1967, commenting on proposed Soviet fishing plans to the south of Australia. There is no evidence that the Soviet Union has conducted any substantial fisheries investigations within the proposed twelve-mile exclusive zone, and it is understood that the dense commercial concentrations of fish referred to occur welt outside it. Nevertheless, the need for policing the zone is recognised and consideration is already being given as to how it should be carried out. 1280 Questions 1280 1280 JZB NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for National Development. What stage has been reached in negotiations with the New South Wales Government in respect of a request that the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority be engaged on Sydney's eastern suburbs railway project? Can the Minister state the latest date on which a decision can be announced as to the future of the Authority if its dissolution is to be prevented? 1280 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The honourable senator will be aware that the Government announced that it would consult with the States to ascertain whether they had propositions which would justify a continuation of the Snowy Mountains Hydroelectric Authority. I read in the newspaper, and 1 understand, that the State of New South Wales is interested in building this eastern suburbs railway. My recollection is that this project has been a hole in the ground for very many years. I understand that it was started very many years ago by a State Labor Government but never passed the hole in the ground stage. Whether the New South Wales Government has communicated with the Commonwealth Government on this matter I am not aware. If the honourable senator will put the question on notice I will see whether I can get an answer for him. 1280 Questions 1280 1280 KQQ SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - I direct a question to the Minister for Repatriation. If a soldier of the Regular Army, being a normal subscriber to the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Fund, is killed in Vietnam and leaves a widow, then, on account of his death, does such widow receive payment from the Repatriation Department and from the Defence Forces Retirement Benefit Fund? Is any diminution made in the repatriation benefit payable to her if she receives a payment from the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Fund, or vice versa? 1280 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - There is no reduction at all in either of the rates payable to the widow. 1280 Questions 1280 1280 CJO WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - ! ask the Minister representing the Postmaster-General whether it is correct, as reported in the 'Sydney Morning Herald', that a device has been provided to the Minister for Customs and Excise to enable him to scramble his telephone conversation so that unauthorised persons will not be able to intercept them. If this is so, will similar facilities be provided to all members of the Federal Parliament so that their conversations likewise will not be intercepted? 1280 JZQ NEW SOUTH WALES LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I did see such an article in the 'Sydney Morning Herald'. If I might say so, the photograph accompanying the article was a little glamorised. The facts are that the Minister for Customs and Excise carries very heavy responsibilities which, from time to time, have to be the subject of conversations between himself and the head of his Department. I remind honourable senators that customs proposals, for example, come in after 4 o'clock in the afternoon. I do not have to tell honourable senators, far instance, that decisions are taken with relation to regulations which may relate to prohibited imports or exports. All of these matters are very complex and most technical. I find understanding the tariff difficult enough when discussing it in clear language without having to discuss these matters, as I often do, with the head of my Department in monosyllables or in guarded language on those occasions when I may have to take a decision on that very same afternoon. Because of the very heavy secrecy which affects, not only an individual member of Parliament, but the whole economy of the Commonwealth, I have indicated to my Comptroller-General that he and I should have a phone on which we can talk to one another completely freely and without inhibition when discussing questions of great magnitude about which I may have to make a decision almost instantaneously after probing questions and full discussions between us. I think everybody who has a proper understanding of the processes of the tariff and the processes of by-law regulations will readily understand the type of problem with which I am confronted. 1280 Questions 1280 1280 KSN TASMANIA 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator MARRIOTT - I direct my question to the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport. In view of the dissatisfaction and the feeling of great uncertainty in the business community of the north west coast of Tasmania about which vessels of the Australian National Line will serve that area when the new roll on, roll off ships now under construction for the Australian National Line come into service, will he ask the Minister for Shipping and Transport to make an early and definite announcement as to which ships or type of ships will service the ports of Burnie, Devonport and Launceston? 1281 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - -1 will put the honourable member's question before the Minister for Shipping and Transport and try to obtain an expeditious reply. 1281 Questions 1281 1281 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - In directing my question to the Leader of the Government I refer to the fact that both Houses of Parliament will be sitting until almost one week before the forthcoming referendum is held on 27th May. thereby preventing most members of Parliament taking part in the campaign. Does this mean that the Govern.ment has decided not to continue with the campaign and has abandoned the referendum proposals? 1281 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Really I would nol have expected such a question to come from the honourable senator. Of course the Government has not abandoned the campaign. As I told the honourable senator or one of his colleagues yesterday, the Government proposes to campaign vigorously because it believes in the referendum proposals. 1281 Questions 1281 1281 K1F VICTORIA 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - My question is addressed to the Minister for Repatriation. Did i he National Executive of the Returned Services League at ils meeting yesterday with the ex-servicemen's committee of Federal Cabinet call for a complete review of all war compensation rales? Did the Executive support its contention that compensation rates had reached an all-time low by pointing out thai some repatriation benefits were now a smaller proportion of the basic wage than they were seventeen years ago? Did the RSL support its request for a review by pointing to the many anomalies in the provisions relating to war compensation currently affecting national servicemen and regular troops in Vietnam? Is a review to be undertaken? 1281 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - The National Executive of the RSL did meet the ex-servicemen's sub-committee yesterday, as it does annually, for the presentation of its submissions on war pensions and entitlements. The submission is very similar to that presented last year. 1 think the Press has told us about it. The points raised by the honourable senator are, in the main, correct. At this s;age I do not think I can give him any further information. 1281 Questions 1281 1281 K7Y WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - 1 address my question to the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service. ls ii a fact that there are no provisions in. the National Service Act for deputy directors or other officers of the Department of Labour and National Service to exercise discretion in deferring or exempting the call-up of young men for national service training on compassionate or other grounds involving great hardship or distress? Since such young men therefore must appear before a magistrate and employ legal counsel to present their case, will the Minister consider supplying free legal advice to such persons who may not be able to afford it? 1281 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am not au fait with the details of the Act itself. I will bring the honourable senator's suggestion to the notice of the Minister for Labour and National Service and ask him lo write to her concerning it. 1281 Questions 1281 1281 K8N SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I wish to direct a question, which arises from the question asked by Senator Branson, to i:he Leader of the Government in the Senate. Is the Leader aware that Senator Ridley, who recently underwent an operation, was asked by a representative of the Adelaide Advertiser' whether he would be going to Canberra for the debate on postal charges? At no stage did Senator Ridley inform the representative of the 'Advertiser' that his present condition would preclude him from attending the Senate. I inform the Senate that I have within the last few minutes spoken to Senator Ridley who told me that he will arrive in Canberra within the next few days. 1282 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! Are you asking a question, Senator? 1282 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I would like your indulgence, Sir, if I could get it, to correct what I consider is- 1282 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! I point out that the question of pairs has nothing to do with the Senate officially. It is a matter for arrangement between the parties. Therefore the honourable senator's question is out of order. Any arrangement that exists between the parties in relation to pairs is not the official business of the Senate. 1282 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - Would you give me leave, Mr President, to make a statement to correct an obviously wrong impression that has been given to the Senate? 1282 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - The honourable senator may ask for leave to make a statement at a later stage. 1282 Questions 1282 1282 JUH TASMANIA 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT -I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Air: In view of the Minister's answer to my questions concerning decisions taken by the Government being outlined in newspapers, will he be good enough to indicate to me which newspaper I should study for answers to these extremely important questions? 1282 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - Before I answer the honourable senator's question perhaps I could elaborate a little on my answer to his previous question. I would like to remind him - unpleasant and unkind as it might be - that the Australian Labor Party would have ordered the TSR2 aircraft from Great Britain. Of course, that aircraft was never built. If the honourable senator requires any further information, I ask him to put his question on the notice paper and 1 will try to get it for him. 1282 Questions 1282 1282 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL -I ask the Minister representing the Postmaster- General: When may I expect a reply to my recent submissions during a debate on the adjournment of the Senate on behalf of officers of the New South Wales branch of the Amalgamated Postal Workers Union, which has called for changes in industrial rehabilitation practices followed by the Postal Department, with particular reference to the grade of motor lorry driver? 1282 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON -I can only say that I will again bring the matter to the attention of the Postmaster-General. 1282 Questions 1282 1282 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - I preface my question to the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service by stating that I understand that the matter of bad debts owing by migrants to Commonwealth Hostels Ltd was under discussion yesterday by the Public Accounts Committee. Could the Minister advise me as to when I may expect a reply to question No. 49 placed by me on the notice paper on 7th March last? 1282 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - No, I cannot advise the honourable senator because I am not in control of that matter. The responsible Minister is in control of it. I will continue to bring the honourable senator's question to his attention. 1282 Questions 1282 1282 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I preface my question by directing the attention of the Minister for Repatriation to question No. 30 on the notice paper, of which I gave notice on 23rd February last.I remind the Minister that it refers to a quite simple matter of the transport of national servicemen from Kalgoorlie to Enoggera in Queensland. I have asked the Minister subsequently when I might expect an answer to this question. I point out that this matter has caused some concern to the father of one of the national servicemen involved. Is there any possibility whatsoever of obtaining an answer to this question before the adjournment of the Senate at the end of next week? 1282 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I do not know whether the honourable senator stated that his question was first directed to me because I represent the Minister for the Army in this chamber. The question was forwarded to the Department of the Army and untilI receive an answer from the Minister for the Army I cannot give an answertothehonourable senator. I do not know when the answer will come. 1283 Questions 1283 (Question No. 65) 1283 K1Y SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP asked the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: Has the Minister seen the claim made in the annual report of the South Australian Service to Youth Council Inc., which stated that some of the Council's field officers had noticed cases where employers were refusing to engage youths of call-up age? Will the Minister investigate this claim, and, if necessary, initiate legal action to prevent any such discrimination? 1283 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for Labour and National Service has supplied the following answers: Yes. Cases have been brought to the attention of the Department where it has been alleged that employers have discriminated against national service registrant. These have all been promptly investigated. To date it has not been established that discrimination has been practised. The honourable senator can be assured that this question will continue to receive close attention. 1283 Questions 1283 (Question No. 94) 1283 KAW VICTORIA 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator WEDGWOOD asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: Is it a fact that regional offices of the new Secondary Industry Operations Division of the Department of Trade and Industry have been establishedin Sydney and Melbourne; if so, is it the intention of the Government to establish similar offices in the other State capitals? 1283 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Minister for Trade and Industry has supplied the following answer: The Department of Trade and Industry has regional offices in all State capitals. They were established at the time of the formation of the Department of Trade in 1956. The regional offices of the Department of Trade and Industry provide liaison facilities and services for all divisions of the Department of Trade and Industry. These offices will assist in the implementation of the objectives of the recently reorganised Office of Secondary Industry - of which the Secondary Industry Operations Division forms a part - in carrying out their overall function. 1283 Questions 1283 (Question No. 109) 1283 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: With reference to the Government's proposal to extend the scope of the Australian system of tariff preferences for selected manufactured and semi-manufactured products of less developed countries, has the necessary waiver yet been obtained under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade to enable the Governmentto do this? What is the range of goods listed to be included in the new proposal? What countries are likely to beincluded in the new proposal? Is it possible that the small cottage-type industries of, say, Fiji, the New Hebridss, Tonga and Samoa are likely to be assisted by providing easier access to Australian markets? 1283 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Minister for Trade and Industry has supplied me with the following answers to the honourable senator's questions: Under the terms of the waiver Australia obtained under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade - GAIT - last year to enable our system of preferences for less developed countries to be introduced, it is possible for Australia to extend the scope of the system in the way now proposed. Before the new preferences are applied, however, the contracting parties to GATT must be notified and an opportunity provided for consultations with any contracting party seekingthem. It is expected that these procedures will be completed within the next two months. The details of the goods which will be included in the new proposal will not become available until the necessary legislation is introduced into Parliament. It is expected that the relevant legislation will be introduced in the very near future, although none of the new preferences will apply to actual imports until the GATT notification and consultation procedures have been completed. The countries which will benefit from the new proposal will be the same as those to which the existing preferenc es apply. They are as follows: It is expectedthat small cottage-type industries of Pacific Islands like Fiji will obtain some limited benefit from our system of preferences. A further examination is being made to see if anything additional can be done in this field. 1284 Questions 1284 (Question No. 112) 1284 KPG QUEENSLAND 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: Does the law relating to the call-up for military service of eligible migrant youths apply to migrants from all countries; if not, which countries are not covered by this law? Has the Government entered into agreement with any countries to exempt youths from military conscription if the migrant has undergone previous military training in his homeland; if so with which countries? 1284 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for Labour and National Service has supplied the following answers: The National Service Act applies to British and non-British subjects alike who are ordinarily resident in Australia. The position is that a national service registrant who has served full-time in the Australian permanent forces or in the forces of another country before he becomes liable for national service is credited with this service in determining the period, if any for which he is required to undertake national service. 1284 Questions 1284 (Question No. 117) 1284 KKP QUEENSLAND 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator GAIR asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Army upon notice: How many enlisted personnel whose terms of engagement expired during the period from 1st July 1965 to31st December 1966- re-engaged for further service, and look their discharge? 1284 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - The Minister for the Army has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's questions: 1.3,411. 1,572. 1284 Questions 1284 (Question No. 119) 1284 K6F SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: What will be the powers of officers of the proposed Special Reports Branch attachedto the Department of Immigration in relation to (a) interrogation: (b) entry and search; (c) property confiscation: (d) detention; and (e) direction? What will be the penalty for refusal to co-operate with the Special Reports Branch investigating officer or to carry out advice or directions? Will any migrant who comes under investigation be entitled to a public trial before any penalty is imposed? Will migrants be subject to normal police investigation for any action thought to be illegal, a check, if necessary, by Australian Security, and a further check by the Special Reporting Branch? If migrants' past records contribute to undesirable behaviour after arrival in Australia, does this not indicate faults in the screening of intending migrants? If faults are not in screening and undesirable behaviour occurs during Australian residence, should not procedure adopted against Australians apply equally to migrants? Will the reports of the activities of the Special Reports Branch and any investigations of officers be made public or made available to members of parliament requesting information? Will any findings of any investigation be made available to any person affected? 1285 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Immigration has supplied the following answers: The honourable senator's questions are based on two erroneous assumptions: The Special Reports Branch will be carrying out police duties; The Branch will be concerned with migrants as such. Neither of these assumptions has any basis. The following are detailed answers: 1 and 2. The officers of the new Branch will merely have the powers already given to immigration officers by statute. It is not proposed to add to these. These powers are clearly defined in the Migration Act 1958-1966, Aliens Act 1947-1966, Passports Act 1938-1966, and regulations under these Acts. 3 and 4. The Special Reports Branch has been formed to study methods of prevention and detection of malpractice in matters administered by the Department of Immigration - which would include entry to Australia, acquisition of resident status by temporary entrants, citizenship and passports - and to examine individual instances of such malpractice which require thoroughinvestigation. Matters seeming to require prosecution will be referred to the Commonwealth or State police. Any prosecutions will be undertaken in acourt of law which in this country means public hearings. If a migrant is engaged in any illegal activity that activity will be investigated but the person concerned will not be investigated as a migrant. 5 and 6. Screening of migrants is not a function in which the Special Reports Branch will be concerned. 7 and 8. Reports by the Branch to the Secretary of the Department of Immigration on its studies of malpractice will be available to the public when disclosure is in the public interest but not otherwise. Persons arrested as prohibited immigrants or deportees must be told of the reasons for their arrest or details of deportation orders. 1285 Questions 1285 (Question No. 122) 1285 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: Is it a fact that Commonwealth medical benefits are paid to an insured patient for professional attendance or the attendance of a medical practitioner if the attendance is for an examination of the eyes of the patient, but such benefit is not paid if the medical practitioner prescribes spectacle lenses; if so, will the Minister seekto amend the Act to overcome the anomaly of payment for an examination that finds no illness or disability but no payment when a disability is discovered? 1285 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Acting Minister for Health has furnished the following reply: Yes. Section 4 (4.) of the National Health Act specifically excludes the payment of Commonwealth benefit for a professional attendance in consequence of which spectacles are prescribed. The medical benefits scheme was introduced to provide financial assistance towards meeting the cost of medical services rendered by legally qualified medical practitioners to persons who are members of registered medical benefits organisations. It was necessary to ensure, however, that the scheme should not discriminate against allied professions such as optometry. For this reason it was decided that no Commonwealth benefit would be paid in respect of an attendance by a qualified medical practitioner at which spectaclelenses were prescribed. This places the patient in the same position whether the spectacle lenses are prescribed by an ophthalmologist or by an optometrist. In these circumstances, it is not proposed to amend the Act as suggested by the honourable senator. 1285 Questions 1285 (Question No. 138) 1285 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: Is the Ford Motor Company of Australia importing tooling and pattern work associated with the production of motor vehicles and/or agricultural machinery? 1285 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Acting Minister for Trade and Industry has supplied the following answer: The decision as to whether it will obtain its plant and equipment from overseas is a question for the company concerned, taking into account all relevant considerations including the payment, where applicable, of customs duty. In the case in point, I have been advised that as a matter of policy the Ford Motor Company imports tooling only if local capacity is not avail able or if there is some unusual design feature which cannot be met by local suppliers. I am further advised that currently there is no tooling or pattern work being imported or on order from overseas by the Ford Motor Company. 1286 Questions 1286 (Question No. 139) 1286 KAS VICTORIA 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry upon notice: Will the Minister assure the Senate that expenditure on research work by the plastics, steel, aluminium and electronics industries in the area of design and manufacture of irrigation equipment is acceptable in calculating expenditure which may attract the Commonwealth grant? 1286 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The answer to the honourable senator's question is as follows: The proposed legislation on research and development grunts will provide, in brief, that mining and manufacturing companies incorporated in Australia will be eligible companies for the purpose of grants. Therefore, eligible expenditure of such companies in the industries mentioned would qualify for consideration under the proposed scheme. 1286 Questions 1286 (Question No. 144) 1286 K8Y TASMANIA IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL asked the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: How many potential national service trainees are rejected from the ballot or service because of police records? 1286 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for Labour and National Service has supplied the following answer: All national service registrants are subject to the ballot. All registrants balloted in are liable for service provided that they arc not in a class entitled to exemption or indefinite deferment and provided they meet the Army's standards. 1286 Questions 1286 (Question No. 155) 1286 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, upon notice: In obtaining information from various security agencies on the bona fides of intending migrants, is liaison maintained by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation with the Wiesenthal Documentation Centre, the headquarters of which is in Vienna? Has the Wiesenthal Documentation Centre extensive dossiers on Nazi war criminals, which result in people with such infamous political backgrounds being exposed before they can become Australian citizens? 1286 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Attorney-General has supplied the following answer: As has been announced recently on a number of occasions this Government follows the long established practice that details of the activities of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation should not be disclosed. I do not, therefore propose, either by confirmation or denial, to answer these questions. 1286 Questions 1286 (Question No. 159) 1286 JXX SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 DRURY, Arnold Senator DRURY asked the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry, upon notice: Will the recent ruling by a Victorian magistrate that the Victorian Egg Board had no power to collect a levy from egg producers for the Commonwealth Government have any effect onthe collection of the levy by other States? How will this affect the Commonwealth Egg Marketing Authority plan as a whole? 1286 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - The Ministerfor Primary Industry has supplied the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The decision of the magistrate will not affect the administration of the collection of the hen levy by any of the State egg boards, and they will continue to collect the hen levy on behalf of the Commonwealth and boards which have been deducting amounts equivalent to the levy from money due to producers will continue to do so. An appeal to the High Court against the magistrate's decision has now been lodged. The magistrate's decision will not affect the CEMA plan. 1286 Questions 1286 (Question No. 162) 1286 1L5 NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY asked the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs, upon notice: What is the extent of Australia's medical aid to Vietnam in terms of: doctors; nurses; dentists; equipment and medical supplies; other forms of medical aid; and total expenditure on medical aid? In view of the reported high incidence of casualties among civilian adults and children, will urgent consideration be given to increasing substantially Australian medical assistance, to include the provision, maintenance and staffing of a large scale general hospital with special facilities for the treatment and rehabilitation of burned and maimed children? 1287 KH5 VICTORIA LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for External Affairs has furnished the following replies: Up to this date the following assistance has been given: 90 doctors of whom 19 are currently serving; 62 nurses of whom 17 are currently serving; nil; equipment and medical supplies valued at $28,000, to march 1967; 2 laboratory technologists, 3 radiographers and 3 administrative officers attached permanently to the 3 medical teams and training awards in Australia for 2 Vietnamese nurses; $680,000, to March 1967. In addition to the above aid the Australian Army has on numerous occasions given medical treatment to Vietnamese nationals, particularly within the Task Force's area of operations. The Government is keeping itself informed of the medical and other aid requirements of the Government of Vietnam. The Government of Vietnam formulates its aid requirements to which aidgiving countries respond. Medical aid is only one of many needs which have to be mct. After careful examination of what would be involved, the Australian Government does not propose to build a new hospital. There is a great deal of useful - and costly - work possible in association with Vietnamese authorities to improve the hospitals with which Australia is now associated. (Question No. 165) 1287 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT asked the Minister representing the Minister for External Affairs, upon notice: What is the number of Australian doctors and nurses provided at this time for civilian service in Vietnam? What is the average annual cost? Has the Government recently considered the extension of this service; if so, what decision was made? 1287 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for External Affairs has furnished the following replies: At the present time there are 19 doctors and 17 nurses working in Vietnam under the Government's civil aid programme. Expenditure on medical aid to Vietnam is currently running at the rate of 5600,000 per annum. A third surgical team was established in Vung Tau in November 1966. Opportunities to increase the size and to vary the composition and specialities of the teams, will bc examined in association with my colleague, the Minister for Health, the Government of Vietnam and their United States medical advisers. 1287 Questions 1287 1287 K8N South Australia 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - by leave - I want to refer to the question that was asked by Senator Branson concerning Senator Ridley, in which he advised the Senate that a report appeared in the 'West Australian' - I think he said - and also in the Adelaide 'Advertiser', in which it was stated that Senator Ridley was on a twenty-four hour call to be in the Senate in case he was required by the Opposition for the purpose of recording a vote on the Post and Telegraph Rates Bill. I want to inform the Senate that I have been in contact with Senator Ridley within the last four or five minutes. He wants the Senate to know that this is a complete fabrication. I think it is only fair that the Senate should know that at no time did the Australian Labor Party require Senator Ridley to be here on twenty-four hours notice during his illness. The Senate may be interested to know that Senator Ridley, with the permission of his doctor, has secured a clearance to come to Canberra and he will be here tomorrow. Senator Drury informs me - and 1 know this to be true: - that Senator Ridley told him as far back as a week ago that he would be in Canberra for the last week of the autumn session. I thank the Senate for giving me permission to make this statement. I thought it was only fair that Senator Ridley should not be upset, when he is recovering from an operation, by these erroneous statements which have been made. It is certainly not fair to my Party to suggest that Senator Ridley, as a sick man, was on twenty-four hour call to be here in order to record his vote on any matter. 1287 K2I Western Australia 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator BRANSON - by leave - I thank the Senate for its indulgence in giving me leave to make a statement. I just want Senator Toohey and his colleagues to know that my question was prompted by the fact that I consider Senator Ridley to be one of my personal friends in this chamber. I was most upset to think that the public at large should be led to believe that the Government would not grant a pair any more than that the Opposition would not grant a pair. For goodness sake, we live in civilised days in this Senate now and these things are done. I just want it to be known that I asked my question in the interests of Senator Ridley and his family. 1288 committee 1288 1288 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I have received a letter from the Leader of the Government in the Senate appointing Senators Branson, Morris and Wood, and from the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate appointing Senators Devitt and Toohey as members of the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory. I have also received letters from the Prime Minister appointing Mr England and Mr Foxand from the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives appointing Mr Daly and Mr J. R. Fraser members of the Committee. 1288 Message received from the House of Representatives requesting the concurrence of the Senate in the appointment of a Joint Committee on Foreign Affaiars in the following terms: That a joint committee be appointed to consider foreign affairs generally and to report to the Minister for External Affairs upon such matters as are referred to it by the Minister. That the Committee consist of eight members of the House of Representatives appointed by the Prime Minister, five members of the House of Representatives appointed by the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives, four senators appointed by the Leader of the Government in the Senate and three senators appointed by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. That every appointment of a member of the Committee be forthwith notified in writing to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives-. That the Minister for External Affairs shall make available to the Committee information within such categories or on such conditions as he may consider desirable. That the members of the Committee shall hold office as a joint committee until the House of Representatives expires by dissolution or effluxion of time. That the Committee shall have power to appoint sub-committees consisting of four or more of its members: and to refer to any such sub-committees any of the matters which the Committee is empowered to consider. Thatthe Committee or any sub-committee shall have power to adjourn from place to place and to sit during any recess or adjournment of the Parliament and during the sittings of either House of the Parliament. That the Committee and its sub-committees shall sit in camera and their proceedings shall be secret unless the Minister at the request of the Committee otherwise directs. That seven members of the Committee constitutea quorum of the Committee and three members of a sub-committee shall constitute a quorum of that sub-committee. That(a) on every occasion when the Committee reports to the Minister on any matter pursuant to his request the Committee shall inform the Parliament of the fact that it has so reported, otherwise the proceedings of the Committee shall not be reported to either House; the Minister shall forward & copy of any such report as he has requested to the Leader of the Opposition for his confidential information: the Committee may communicate with the Minister but all communications with the Minister and the fact of any such communication shall be confidential to the Committeeand the Minister. That the Committee shall have power to invite persons to give evidence before the Committee. That with the consent of the Minister for External Affairs, the Committee shall have power to call for official papers or records. That all written and oral evidence submitted to or received by the Committee in camera shall be confidential to the Committee and the Minister. That any member of the Committee have power to add a protest or dissent to any report, but the protest or dissent may not introduce new matter not referred to in the main report. Thatthe Committee have power to consider the minutes of evidence and records of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs appointed in the previous Parliament relating to any matter on which that Committee had not completed its consideration. That the foregoing provisions of this resolution, so far as they are inconsistent with the Standing Orders, have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Standing Orders. Motion (by Senator Henry) - by leave - proposed: That the Senate concurs in the Resolution transmitted to the Senate by Message No. 30 of the House of Representatives relatingto the appointment of a Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. That the provisions of the Resolution, so far as they are inconsistent with the Standing Orders, have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Standing Orders. That the foregoing resolutions be communicated to the House of Representatives by message. Amendments (by Senator McManus) proposed: At end of paragraph I, add: 'subject to the following modification: That at the end of paragraph 2 the following words be added: "and one senator to be appointed by the Leader of the Australian Democratic Labor Party in the Senate".'. At end of paragraph 3, add: 'with a request for the concurrence of that House in the Senate's modification of the Resolution transmitted to the Senate by the House'. Debate (on motion by Senator Murphy) adjourned. 1289 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Henty) read a first time. 1289 1289 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - 1 move: That the Bill be now read a second time. This Bill has one purpose only and that is to amend the Sales Tax (Exemptions and Classifications) Act to provide for the exemption from sales tax of motor vehicle seat belts in all circumstances. Seat belts have for some years been exempt from sales tax under a provision which applies to certain classes of protective equipment, but that exemption is fully effective only when the seat belts are sold as separate items of merchandise. This is brought about because seat belts, in common with other components for vehicles, lose their separate identity when they are fitted to a motor vehicle. If already fitted to the vehicle at the taxing point, which is normally the point of sale by the vehicle manufacturer or wholesaler to the retail dealer, there is only one article - a motor vehicle - to be taxed. The seat belts, as part of the complete vehicle, then bear tax at the rate applicable to the vehicle. This deterred Australian vehicle manufacturers from fitting seat belts to vehicles on their factory assembly lines. Manufacturers who specify seat belts as standard equipment for their vehicles adopted, as an alternative, the practice of selling the belts as separate articles and arranging for their dealers to fit the belts after the vehicles had passed the taxing point. By this means they arranged for their vehicles to be supplied to customers with scat belts fitted while at the same time preserving the exemption of the belts. lt is well recognised that the wearing of seat belts contributes significantly towards reducing the risk of death or serious injury in road accidents. We would like to see seat belts in all vehicles, and consider that vehicle manufacturers should be encouraged 10 provide seat belts as standard equipment with all vehicles. I indicated earlier that under the existing law vehicles fitted wilh seat belts have been supplied to the public under arrangements whereby the belts do not attract sales tax. Nevertheless., there is little doubt that there are advantages in having the belts fitted during vehicle assembly operations when the fitting can be most efficiently and economically carried out. There is the added advantage that drivers delivering vehicles from factories to dealers' premises will have the protection of seat belts. The Government accordingly decided to take action to remove the present deterrent to the fitting of seat belts to vehicles in the course of factory assembly operations. Under these proposals sales tax will not be payable on so much of the sale value of a vehicle fitted with exempt seat belt assemblies as is equal to the amount which would have been the sale value of those assemblies if sold as separate articles. In the result, the value upon which sales tax would otherwise be payable will be reduced by the value of the seat belt assemblies incorporated in the vehicle. The Bill will also provide for the specific exemption of seat belt assemblies which are now exempt under the more general provision to which I referred earlier. The exemption will apply to all seat belt assemblies, including those of the harness and sash type, that are designed for the protection of persons in motor vehicles. Parts and fittings for exempt seat belt assemblies will also be exempt. Under the provisions of the Bill, the proposals will be effective as from 12th April 1967, the date on which the measure was introduced into Parliament. The Bill is explained in more detail in an explanatory memorandum which is being made available to honourable senators.I commend the Bill to the Senate. Debate (on motion by Senator O'Byrne) adjourned. 1290 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Henty) read a first time. 1290 1290 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I move: That the Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to amend the National Library Act 1960-1966 to provide for the appointment of the National Librarian under the National Library Act itself instead of under the Public Service Act. as the present Act provides, and to lay down audit requirements which meet The particular needs of the National Library. Since1960 the Parliamentary Librarian has been acting as National Librarian also, under a transitional provision of the National Library Act. The National Library Council wishes to have the first appointment of a full time National Librarian made by the end of 1967 in preparation for the movement of the substantial collections and for the opening of the National Library building in mid- 1968. The Act. as drafted in 1960. provides in section 17(1) for the National Librarian to be appointed and employed in accordance with the Public Service Act. This method is now considered inappropriate. The proposed amendment makes the appointment of the National Librarian a matter for the Governor-General under The terms of the National Library Act itself. The form of the amendment will need to incorporate the usual provisions for full time statutory office bearers, such as maximum period of appointment, age limit, remuneration as fixed by the Governor-General, leave of absence, termination for misbehaviour or physical or mental in capacity, vacation of office due to bankruptcy or outside employment without approval, preservation of rights of a person appointed from the Public Service and application of the Commonwealth Employees' Compensation Act and the Superannuation Act. The Bill also provides for an Acting National Librarian. The Bill makes some changes in existing audit requirements in order to meet the special needs of the National Library. Sections 25 and 27 of the Act contain the normal audit requirements for a Commonwealth statutory authority, but experience has shown thatthese do not recognise the special position of a great library. The requirement in section 27 (3) (b) that the financial statement should showthe state of the affairs of the Library means that a balance sheet should be produced requiring an annual stocktaking and valuation of the Library's large and varied collections. This would be impractical since the Library holds many historical and other treasures on which a meaningful monetary value cannot be placed. It is therefore proposed that the reference to 'the state of the affairs of the Library' be deleted. Another problem is that the authority of the Auditor-General under Section 25 (1) to audit the 'financial transactions' of the Library, does not extend to assets acquired by exchange or as a gift or transferred to the Library from an existing Commonwealth collection held elsewhere. It is proposed that the Auditor-General's functions be extended to include inspection and report on records of all dealings with property, whether or not expenditure is involved. 1 should perhaps remind honourable senators that these proposals are an integral part of the process of separation of the Parliamentary and National libraries. Honourable senators will recall that the National Library grew out of the Library of Parliament. Detailed proposals for the separation of the two libraries were outlined in the second reading speech when the then Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Spooner, introduced the National Library Bill in 1960. These included the appointment to the National Library Council of two members of the Parliament and the occupancy of the positions of National Librarian and Parliamentary Librarian by the one person. The National Library Council, in its annual reports to Parliament, has paid tribute to the value of these arrangements in assisting the development of the National Library and the separation of the two libraries as ultimately independent but closely related institutions. During this process, which is now almost complete, honourable senators will also have noted with satisfaction the development in the services of the Parliamentary Library, including its research service. For these we are especially indebted to the Presiding Officers and the Joint Library Committee. 1 commend the Bill to the Senate. Debate (on motion by Senator Tanguey) adjourned. 1291 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Henty) read a first time. 1291 1291 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I move: Thai the Bill be now read a second time. In consequence of the Government's decision to extend superannuation benefits to married women who are employed as permanent officers in the Commonwealth Public Service, or who continue as permanent officers after marriage, the Superannuation Act (No. 2) 1966 made a number of amendments to the Superannuation Act 1922-1966. In my second reading speech when introducing that legislation towards the end of the last Parliament, it was pointed out that, owing to the extreme pressure of work upon the Parliamentary Draftsman and his staff at that stage of the Parliamentary session, it had not been possible to attend to all the minor consequential changes which were seen to be necessary. However, the Bill provided the necessary basic changes and, as the Government did not wish to delay the admission of married women as contributors, the legislation was introduced with the undertaking that a further Bill would be prepared to provide amendments relating to those minor aspects. The present Bill attends to the outstanding matters which are fundamentally machinery amendments resulting from the acceptance of married women as contributors. For example, provision is made for dealing with the pension of a married woman who, after becoming entitled to a pension, is sentenced to imprisonment, becomes insane or deserts her dependants and the amendments follow the existing provisions relating to male pensioners in such circumstances. At the same time, the Parliamentary Draftsman has taken the opportunity of redrafting some of the provisions that were amended last year in order to improve the form in which they are expressed. The Bill also remakes section 44 of the Principal Act to rectify anomalies which result from the present provision and to introduce new factors for calculating the increased pension benefits that are paid in respect of extended service beyond the elected age of retirement. The new factors are consequential upon the Government's decisions arising from the Eighth Quinquennial Investigation of the Superannuation Fund as at 30th June 1962, and relatively small increases in pension will be paid to, or in respect of, those who served beyond their elected retiring age and who have died or retired since that dale. The increases are confined to this later group because the extended service rendered by any who retired or died before 30th June 1962, was taken into account in the calculation of their share of the surplus in the Fund that was distributed in accordance with the provisions of the Superannuation Act 1965. I commend the Bill to honourable senators. Debate (on motion by Senator Wilkinson) adjourned. 1291 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Gorton) read a first time. 1291 1291 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - 1 move: That the Bill be now read a second time. This is a Bill to amend the Trade Practices Act 1965-1966 by extending its operation in relation to the Stale of Tasmania, and by bringing up to date a reference in section 4 to the Northern Territory (Administration) Act. The Parliament of Tasmania, by an Act entitled the Commonwealth Powers (Trade Practices) Act 1966, has referred to the Commonwealth Parliament the matter of trade practices. Under section 51 (xxxvii) of the Commonwealth Constitution the Commonwealth Parliament may make laws with respect to such a referred matter. The result of the Tasmanian reference, therefore, is that the Commonwealth Parliament has the constitutional power to give to the Trade Practices Act 1965-1966 a full operation in relation to Tasmania. The present Bill is designed to give the Act that full operation. Its passage will mean, for example, that distinctions between interslate and intrastate trade and commerce will not be material to the application of the Act to Tasmania. The Bill provides for the extended operation of the Act by inserting in the principal Act an additional section - section 7a. The result will be that all of the law applicable to trade practices relating to Tasmania will be contained in the Commonwealth Act. As provision is made in section 8 of the Commonwealth Act for State complementary legislation, I mention that the Act which the Tasmanian Parliament has passed is not, and was not intended to be, complementary legislation as envisaged in that section. The amendment proposed by this Bill in no way extends the subject-matter of the principal Act - for example, by applying it to new kinds of agreements or practices. Its effect is simply to take that Act, the provisions of which have been fully debated in this Parliament, and, with the help of the reference from the Tasmanian Parliament, to give those provisions an operation in the State of Tasmania which is not limited by reference to the Commonwealth's ordinary constitutional powers. The other amendment proposed by the Bill is a drafting one relating to the citation of the Northern Territory (Administration) Act. Since the enactment of section 4 of the Trade Practices Act in 1965 the Northern Territory (Administration) Act has been amended by the National Debt Sinking Fund Act 1966. Sub-section (4.) of section 4 of the Trade Practices Act should, in consequence, refer to the Northern Territory (Administration) Act 1910-1966, and clause 3 of this Bill provides accordingly. Clause 3 also amends sub-section (7.) of section 4 of the Trade Practices Act so as to provide for the Northern Territory (Administration) Act, as amended by section 4 of the Trade Practices Act, to be cited in future as the Northern Territory (Administration) Act 1910-1967. Debate (on motion by Senator Murphy) adjourned. 1292 bill 1292 Debate resumed from 9 May (vide page 1275), on motion by Senator Henry: That the Bil! be now read a second time. 1292 KAS Victoria 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The Senate is dealing with a Bill to establish an Australian Tourist Commission for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia, and travel in Australia, by people from other countries. This is in line with the intention of the Government, as a first major step, to provide facilities for encouraging tourism from overseas countries to Australia, The importance of the tourist industry to Australia is well illustrated by the fact, referred to in the second reading speech of the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty), that during 1965-66 an estimated $65m was spent in this country by overseas tourists. Tourism has thus become a main source of exchange earnings and it is the ninth in importance in our trading industries. The Federal Government has not just commenced to take an interest in this matter because it has contributed to the funds of the Australian National Travel Association some $5m in grants since 1952-53. Last year this Parliament granted $862,000 for the furtherance of the work of that Association. Seventy per cent of the Association's funds has come from the Federal Government. So it can be seen that although this Bill is the first major step towards increasing the flow of visitors to this country it is by no means just an initial step by the Government. The Bill is assured of passage through the Senate as both sides of the Senate support it. It will activate the Government's intention to establish an Australian Tourist Commission which will be directly concerned with promoting, not within Australia but overseas, the travel of visitors to this country. The object will be to increase the number of tourists. Although the activities of the Commission will be based in Australia the great volume of its work will be done overseas. The purposes of the Commission are set out quite clearly in Part III of the Bill. To me it would appear that the powers of the Commission will be particularly wide. I have been unable to find any other commission which has parallel powers. Clause 1 6 (2.) (b) states thai the Commission will have power: to induce and assist travel agents, transmit operators and other appropriate bodies or persons to encourage people in other countries to visit Australia and to travel in Australia. Reading the powers, I doubted whether a correct use of words had been made, because 1 would take "induced' to mean something other than assisting. I think the wording in various other clauses needs to be looked at rather closely. The general propositions of the Bill appear to me to be quite sound. The costs involved in establishing such a commission should be noted but in the Bill and in the Minister's speech I find no mention of what the proposed cost will be. I believe that the Senate could be armed with some information as to what will be the mounting costs of this Commission over the years that ensue after its appointment. From my investigations into various departments which have activities overseas it seems that this point of costs involved in establishments overseas is of particular importance. From the Bill before the Semite, 1 presume that in many countries this Commission will be setting up offices. Probably it will be purchasing residences ai well as offices because these functions come within its powers. I suggest that the Government or the Parliament should arrive al a definite policy as to whether we should rent premises in instances such as this or whether we should insist upon ownership of our own assets. I suggest that we should be deciding whether, with this Commission working under the Department of Trade and Industry, we should involve ourselves now in the purchase and maintenance of luxurious but nevertheless adequate accommodation in which both the Department of Trade and Industry and the Commission could work. 1 suggest thai wc should own the land, if that is possible, on which our offices are situated. I read with great disappointment at times of the great volume of money we pay out by way of rent every year. We have now reached the horrible position where it costs us in the vicinity of $500,000 a year in rent for Australia House in London. This does not appear to me to be a sound proposition by any means. I suggest that in giving the Australian Tourist Commission power to set up offices in other countries we should provide that where possible these premises should be owned by Australia if the Commission is to remain in business. 1293 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator Davidson - But in an agency so flexible as a travel agency, is it not wise to have a rental policy? 1293 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - 1 would think not. Lel us take America as an example. I should imagine that the Department of Trade and Industry has already decided which are the most appropriate points at which to have offices, lt may be either renting those premises or purchasing them. 1 do not know what it is doing, but I do suggest that it would be wise to decide upon one central point. In all probability the Commission as well as the Department will be working from some major capital city. I sec the Minister nodding his head. He probably believes this is so. I feel that the provision relating to the control of the accounts of this Commission is in line with that provided for the control of the accounts of most other authorities. I suggest to the Senate that it is most important that we should have adequate safeguards to ensure the setting up of a proper system of accounting when establishing a new commission such as this. We should provide that the accounts shall be subject to review by the Auditor-General and that a report shall be submitted by him to this Parliament so that we may have some say in the matter. On looking at this from the accounting point of view, I believe that adequate protection is provided in the measure. 1293 K1T 0 0 BENN, Archibald Senator Benn - Does not the honourable senator think that officers of the Department of External Affairs stationed overseas can do all the work that will be required of the Commission? 1293 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - No. 1 would not agree with that. I think this is a specialist's job. 1 have not the time to go into all the facts, but I firmly believe that special qualifications are required to fulfil efficiently the offices of chairman and members of a commission such as this. In these times of great travel, intense publicity, and great need for efficient management special qualifications are required if a commission such as this is to be conducted efficiently. It is my belief that those engaged overseas in carrying out duties connected with the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Industry are not the types of people to be employed in this work if this novel idea is to be promoted correctly. 1294 K1T 0 0 BENN, Archibald Senator Benn - I think the honourable senator is a little confused because he is accustomed to Melbourne conditions. 1294 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - No. 1 am quite sure that I would not be any more confused than would be the honourable senator from Queensland. This is novel legislation. We are all supporting it because we want to see the idea get under way. Generally speaking, it must be agreed that it is wise to establish the Commission in the way set out in the Bill. I have pointed out already that the Commonwealth did do something in past years to encourage tourism. I wonder whether, at this point of time, in promoting tourism we should investigate fully the likely results of introducing an increased number of tourists into Australia and the effects of the views they may take home with them. The Commission will not necessarily be the best supplier of new tourists to Australia. I believe our best advertisements will come from the individuals who, after visiting this country, leave it with a good impression and then recommend it to their friends. The publicity put out by the various State authorities has been particularly good but there is no uniform Commonwealth publicity designed to encourage overseas visitors to Australia. 1294 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - In overseas countries? 1294 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - In overseas countries, yes. 1294 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - There has been fairly uniform publicity from ANTA. 1294 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I query that. If any honourable senator walked into an Australian tourist office overseas and asked for publicity in relation to Australia he would be handed about a dozen leaflets distributed by the various State authorities. 1294 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - I know that the honourable senator is wrong in that statement. 1294 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I query that because 1 have had some conversation with people who know about this matter. I have gathered the impression that the picture painted of Australia is not very bright and that the individual who says: 'I am thinking of going to Australia. What will I find there?' will not be told very much. 1 think the publicity at present is more on a State basis than on a Commonwealth basis. Let me add however that the various State authorities and industries concerned with tourism have done a particularly good job. I think the Commission should be given power to distribute publicity literature on a Commonwealth basis. In any case it is essential that the present arrangement be improved. Within Australia we need to look to a variety of important matters which will affect the tourist. Transport within the various States is a most important item. I know that the Commonwealth says it is a matter for the States to improve their own facilities so I urge the States, particularly my own State of Victoria, to take this matter in hand immediately if they want to gain the full benefit of the provision to be made by the Commonwealth. I believe that air transport facilities in Victoria surpass those in any other State. However the Commonwealth should enter the field and provide adequate finance for the construction of airfields in major country towns. This has been lacking in the past. Now that jet aircraft are generally in use we should look forward and provide facilities for helicopters and jet aircraft at our major cities and towns because from those points tourists from overseas will be conducted to the extremities of this nation to what we imagine to be our tourist attractions. Our ports of entry for visitors to Australia who travel by ship are neither attractive nor adequate. In Victoria our bayside attractions are not so good at present that they cannot be improved. Turning to roads, I am sure everyone must give credit to the Commonwealth for directing that 40% of Commonwealth grants for roads shall be devoted to roads outside the metropolitan areas. We will reap the benefit of that direction with the advent of more tourists. The width of roads, at least those between capital cities, should be increased, perhaps trebled, to cater not only for growing motor traffic but also, in the future, for jet or air cushion machines. Roads of a far higher standard are required. Our railway systems need an overhaul. I do nol know whether a great number of tourists will travel by rail. Neither do I know whether the existing railway lines will be used in the future or whether overhead railways will be constructed. In any case, wc should be surveying rail links that will take the greatest advantage of the tourist potential. The Commonwealth should make money available for the development of tourist centres although I imagine the argument will be raised that where private finance is available this should be used first. However I believe the Commonwealth Development Hunk should make available $50ni or $100,11 for the development of tourist attractions, the provision of guest houses and accommodation centres where these do not already exist, and the improvement of existing facilities. The State Governments could act as co-ordinating bodies in a survey of facilities available at camping sites and at hostels that are owned by youth groups. The Commonwealth Department of Education and Science, through the Australian Tourist Commission, could say to other countries: 'We are anxious to assist the youth of your country to visit Australia'. An inducement would be the improvement of facilities at YMCA and scout camps and at YWCA hostels. Both overseas visitors and our own youth would benefit from this. In addition young visitors from overseas would take back to their own country word about the good job that is being done in Australia. Other honourable senators have mentioned their own States. For my part I believe that Victoria can provide the most outstanding attractions to visitors from overseas. At any time of the year, whether it be summer, autumn, winter or spring, we can offer tourist attractions. For a start, the improvement of our bayside areas makes entry to Victoria attractive. We have snowfields in the winter and the excellence of Mildura and surrounding areas needs no publicity. All this makes Victoria a most attractive State. The Commonwealth should be encouraged to make finance available to enable private enterprise to improve its facilities so that it will be able to luke full advantage of the increased number of tourists expected as a result of the selling up of the Australian Tourist Commission. 1 have great pleasure in supporting this Bill in the knowledge that honourable senators on both sides of the House realise that it will be of immense value not only to the Australian economy as a whole but also to individuals, particularly those engaged in the tourist business. Certainly it will result in more visitors to Australia and this in turn will lead to better relations with countries overseas. 1295 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - All honourable senators who preceded me in this debate seemed to have a fixation about the number of tourists we will encourage to Australia and the matter of finance. J should like to strike another note. A keyword in this whole debate is conservation'. The idea of publicising the various attractions in this Commonwealth depends upon preserving them. To support my contention about the need for conservation 1 direct the attention of honourable senators to 'Walkabout', a journal which has the objective of attracting tourists. The current issue contains a fascinating article about the platypus. It points out that there are only two fauna sanctuaries in which the platypus is in captivity. One is the Colin Mackenzie Sanctuary at Healesville in Victoria and the other is the David Fleay fauna reserve at West Burleigh on the Queensland Gold Coast. A section further on in the journal contains a very informative article entitled 'Water for a Thirsty Land'. The large arid sections of our continent combined with limitations on our conservation activities demand more than the setting up of a commission to bring people to Australia. It is time for a little stocktaking so that we might hold on to what we have already. Otherwise the experience of national parks in North America might be repeated in Australia. If control is not established gradual erosion of our natural resources will take place. I am brought now to my basic criticism of the Bill. I do not quarrel for one moment with its long range objectives but I believe that the personnel of the Commission may have a fixation about bringing more tourists here. Representation of any department interested in preserving our tourist attractions is not proposed. Certainly Slate governments have their responsibilities, but the very creation of the Commission is an illustration of what is termed the growth of federalism. The Commonwealth Government has to assume responsibilities that would not have been visualised ten, fifteen or twenty years ago. Tourism in Canada is world renowned, In 1961-62 the Canadian Federal Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources through its subsidiary, the Canadian Travel Bureau, received record increased earnings of $53m. The functions of the Canadian Human History Branch, the National Museums of Canada, the Water Resources Branch and the National Parks Branch are all grouped under the Federal Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. As a contrast, the personnel of the Commission to be set up under this legislation are to be officers of the Prime Minister's Department, the Australian News and Information Bureau of the Department of the Interior, and the Department of Trade and Industry. My reaction to that is: Why is not the Minister for National Development represented? Or better still: Why do we not provide for Dr Harry Frith of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation or one of his officers to sit on the Commission? There is no mention of them. If we do not wish to take that step, perhaps representation could come from the Australian Conservation Foundation. In the Foundation's brochure it says: Conservation means different things to different people. Some think primarily ' of preserving our native plants and animals and setting aside adequate national parks and fauna and flora reserves. Some are more concerned with landscapes and preventing stretches of our coast degenerating into rural slums. The Australian Conservation Foundation believes that if we do not preserve our natural tourist attractions they will gradually be eroded. But they are the attractions that we are trying to bring people here to see. Keenthough the appointees to the Commission may be, there is not one of them who seems equipped to stress the necessity for conservation. Senator Webster referred to the responsibilities of State departments. 1 have already pointed out to the Senate what has happened at the federal level in Canada. I direct attention now to the provincial level. I have here an annual report of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources in the Canadian Province of Saskatchewan. It refers to park planning, communications, surveys, fur management, hunter safety, wild life, fisheries and forestry. I hope I have made clear my basic criticism of this measure by pointing out the position in Canada. In Australia, all the various authorities, whether at the Slate or Federal level, will be the poor relations of the Commission. On a previous occasion I have referred to what appears to be a trend in Government circles. The State abattoir authorities and the Meat Industry Employees Union are not represented on the Australian Meal Board. It is said that they are consulted when something happens. Of course, when something happens the problem is presented as a fait accompli. It is a Utile too late then. The rutile operators have moved on to the foreshores of Queensland and New South Wales. A patched up agreement is reached and a little more of our natural attractions is eroded. People say: 'We have learnt over the last five years. Bonds of great value are put up by these firms so that regeneration of the areas becomes more or less an obligation.' But it is not as easy as that. I direct the attention of honourable senators to the history of California. Private organisations there wanted to preserve the famous redwood trees. Constant battles have taken place with State and Federal authorities to preserve the forests but always someone will say: 'We want only to run a spur off the highway. We want to go through here, lt will not affect the redwood trees at all.' But before the people know where they are they find that the bulldozers have moved in with other heavy earthmoving machinery and the growth of centuries is gone in two or three weeks. Problems have arisen in the Snowy Mountains. Every tourist does not want to be driven along in a car. Some people want to employ their own physical mobility. They do not believe that the fifteen and twenty storey buildings in big cities are the end of all beauty. They want to see a lake with all its natural effects. The question of planning is most important. Many people will be concerned at whether the Commission will be a dollar earner. Concentration can centre on dollar earning for an intensive period of four or five years and then erosion of our natural resources will occur. Where do we go from there? I can take it a little further. The National Trust of Australia has divisional officers in most capital cities in relation to many relics of our colonial days. They arc taking preservation action. Over the last few years public opinion has become conditioned to the need for preserving our history. Attention has been directed to, say, an old time court house or perhaps the home of the poet Henry Kendall, in the Robertson electorate of New South Wales. The Trust has to move in quickly. It :s all very well to say that the slogging work will bc done and then at the top level people will bring along the tourists. In the CSIRO quite valuable assistance is given to industrial firms that do pretty well in regard to serums. But when finance for the CSIRO is considered restrictions are placed on scholarships and research funds. I would like to know whether some of our big tourist organisations will ever say: Wc have to put something back.' I wonder whether they have yet reached that stage. A lot of them have the idea that as long as they can run tourist buses it does not mailer how they leave the places they visit. Not enough attention is paid to the effects of vandalism. If some people had their way a bright neon sign would be erected at every beauty spot. In Tasmania Luke Pedder is being menaced by hydroelectric power expansion. We live in a materialistic society and there is no doubt that Australia needs hydro-electric projects. But do we have to ruin our national attractions for the sake of hydro-electric power? The answer lies in effective planning. 1 do not criticise for one moment the basic objective of this legislation which is to attract tourists, but we must impose safeguards to avoid excessive patronage of particularly good areas. 1297 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - Exploitation is the word, not patronage. 1297 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - J bow to the wisdom of my Queensland colleague. But I believe that our Department of National Development should play a major role in this matter. Already the Kosciusko State Park is facing certain problems, and unless we get this close liaison between the States and the Commonwealth Government, I think that we will not be able to give all the protection that is needed there. In last Monday's 'Sydney Morning Herald' there was a report of an interview with the New South Wales Minister for Lands, Mr Lewis. I noticed that amongst other things he said that the more dollars he could get the better. That is an over-simplification of his problem. But the New South Wales Government recently opened up a new national park in the Lake Menindee area. Again, the problem is that this venture looks all right on the surface, but in a lot of that area the stocks of various marsupials will have to be built up because there has been a certain amount of intermittent grazing in the area. I think that in one part of the area a lot of goats have gone bush. It is not an area like those in Canada where there is a lot of virgin country and there are various wildlife sanctuaries. A lot of this area in New South Wales has to be rebuilt. I know that some tourist people visualise a counterpart of Kruger Park in South Africa. Of course that is a little bit of wishful thinking when we consider the ambit of present fauna areas. I repeat that the thing that is worrying me is that the Government is tackling this problem only from one angle, ft is nice to know that, at least, there will be a coordination of authorities. I know that the legislation provides that State Ministers will have some say in the appointment of one or two members of the Australian Tourist Commission. I imagine that if those appointees were people from the Victorian or New South Wales Chief Secretary's Departments or were people concerned with parks and wildlife, the Commission might have some status. I give the Government full marks for its development in this field in the Australian Capital Territory and also in the Northern Territory. I know that droughts and bush fires, despite all that has been done to give relief to the States, cause difficulties which raise the conservation angle. Recently, I asked a question about a certain type of Canadian amphibious fire bombing aircraft that is used effectively to preserve forests in Canada. No one can say that we can completely curb all forms of bush fire. But we are in the jet agc. We talk about fighter bombers for our national protection. Let us be realistic when we talk about the preservation of the national resources which we will use as tourist attractions. What are we doing to protect them? When we talk about forest acreages, we all know that all the continents are in a pretty bad way in this regard and that we have to preserve all that we have. We talk about projects being financed on a $1 for $1 basis by private tourist organisations and the Commonwealth Government. Let us consider this question of the augmentation of the revenue. Some months ago I pointed out to the Government that when the Chifley post-war Government introduced a better deal for coal miners by providing long service leave benefits, it imposed a certain levy on the tonnage of coal. I respectfully suggest that a levy could be imposed on the export of kangaroo meat in order to help preserve our wildlife. lt gets back to the proposition that people who do well out of an industry by exploiting our resources should pay something back. I again say that this is a golden opportunity for the Commonwealth Government to assist, by imposing on those people who export kangaroo meat a levy of 5c per lb on every carcass that is exported. Last year $200,000 could have been raised in this way. If the Government fed this $200,000 which could be raised from the export of kangaroo meat back to the States we would find, instead of reading, as we did in the May issue of 'Walkabout', that we had only two platypus sanctuaries - and 1 am using this only as an illustration - that the States would be able to increase considerably their fauna reserves. In conclusion, I point out that 1 do not criticise the broad proposition, but I say that there is a lamentable lack of people who are wedded to the concept of conservation. 1298 KBL Queensland 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - I would strongly commend the Government for the forward move it has made regarding the tourist industry in this country. When I entered this chamber after the 1949 elections, during the first debate on the Address-in-Reply to the Governor-General's Speech early in 1950, I made a speech in which I featured the point that the tourist industry should be developed on a national basis and in a much stronger way that it had been developed in the past. I remember asking the Government to contribute £500,000 per annum to the Australian National Travel Association, which was. a colossal amount in the minds of most people then. I suggested that the following year the amount should be increased to £lm per annum. I did that as one who had been associated with the industry for many years, particularly the development around the Great Barrier Reef and Mackay. Yesterday afternoon in this chamber Senator Morris paid a tribute to me for the work that I had done in this regard. I have been associated with the industry for so long that I realise the great possibility that lies within the development of the tourist industry. 1298 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - I understand that the honourable senator is Mayor of Mackay now. 1298 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - There is nothing wrong with being a first citizen in Australia. Tourism can play a very important part, so far as this nation is concerned, not just in my own State of Queensland but in the other States. As I have said before, I believe that each State has its own characteristics. As a consequence I believe that we can offer in Australia, not only quality tourist attractions but also a variety of them. This is very important indeed. One point about which I have been very keen in the development of the tourist industry is that tackled in the proper way it could play an important part in overcoming one of the great problems that this country has faced for years. I have said this from time to time. By bringing people from overseas to spend money here, it can help help to balance our overeas trade. We need more trade in order to acquire overseas credits. There is no quicker way in which this can be done than by the development of the tourist industry. I am sure that if we commenced a stronger advertising campaign overseas, within a month or so people would be dropping their pounds, dollars or whatever currency it might be into this country's coffers. This is one industry in which we do not sell our product - the scenery. People go away having spent their money, but we still retain the product. To me the tourist industry offers the Government wonderful scope to alleviate the shortage of overseas credits. Therefore I am particularly pleased to note that the Government is tackling this problem in a much stronger way. I am sorry that there has not been some indication of the amount of money which will be spent. From what has been said, I feel confident that the Government is out to do a really excellent job. The amount of advertising that is necessary reminds me of falling rain. If we get a light shower of rain we do not get very good returns. But if we get a heavy fall of rain we get a good response from the earth. So it is with advertising. If we are thin with our advertising we get little response. There has to be a saturation of advertising and publicity so that ultimately people get the thought in their minds that Australia is the place in which to have a holiday. It is no use having a spread of publicity of a light nature over a large area. It has to be done on a really saturation basis. As one travels overseas or meets people from abroad one finds that very little is known about Australia in many places. I think that the Government is setting out to do the job in a way which will rectify the current position. I believe that in the not too distant future people will realise the great value of the Government's forward step. I think that the type of publicity used is important. I have great admiration for the work that has been done by the Australian National Travel Association. I have spoken about the type of advertising which I think is essential. I know that sometimes people tend to run a clever and sophisticated type of advertising. We want a publicity campaign which will reflect what Australia truly represents. In making a study of tourist areas 1 have looked particularly at places such as Hawaii which are really the tops in the development of the tourist industry. I have found that such places do not go in for the sophisticated kind of advertising. They go in for the sort of advertising that illustrates the features that people will see and the things that people will be able to do there. I consider that we ought to advertise in a way that will really portray Australia and present the atmosphere of this country. We should show prospective tourists just what Australia is and what they will see when they get here. Apart from earning foreign exchange for the Government, the tourist industry returns to us other benefits that percolate right through the community. As I mentioned in my speech in the Address-in- Repiy debate at the beginning of this session, some people say that they get nothing out of the tourist industry because they never see tourists. I have heard doctors and other professional men and people in various sections of the community say this. However, the tourist business does affect them. 1299 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - Doctors have never said that they get nothing out of the tourist industry. 1299 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - I did nol mean that doctors generally say this. I know that the honourable senator is deeply conscious of the value of the tourist industry. Probably I. should have referred merely to professional men. But this sort of thing is said by many. Small storekeepers have said it to mc on a number of occasions. The point is, however, that the tourist industry employs many people. When a new tourist building, whether it be a motel, a hotel or anything else, is to be constructed, bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, painters and other tradesmen are employed. On completion of the building, it has to bc furnished and this task provides employment for people in the furnishing trades. When it is functioning, it employs waitresses, chefs and staff members, both men and women, in many other categories. Overseas one finds many hotels where the staff numbers anything from 300 to 700 persons. This makes one realise the terrific importance of the tourist industry. In small communities even the lesser numbers employed in smaller establishments are significant. For example, the tourist resorts on the islands of the Great Barrier Reef near Mackay, in my district, provide a significant volume of employment. Not only tourists but also people engaged in the tourist industry have to be fed and clothed. Tourists spend money when they travel. The story told is that the tourist arrives with everything arranged. This is true. Bui the coupons obtained by the tourist from the travel agent who has made the booking mean thai money has been spent and this money finds it way to the people who provide the services. This story that everything is arranged for the tourist before he sets out is just a glib form of expression adopted by people who do not realise how valuable the tourist industry is. Honourable senators can rest assured that the tourist industry, wherever it is to be found, brings prosperity to the local community. Recently in Mackay, my own city, I met a Mr Doe, who has decided to live in the Caribbean islands, which he has visited and which he knows. He has chosen them as the ideal place for his retirement. He is a man who has been associated with tourist islands over the years. Mr Doe told me of the money invested in the construction of huge hotels in the Caribbean islands and of what this investment meant to them. He instanced the case of Barbados, which, in many ways, is similar to the Mackay district. The sugar industry was the mainstay of the economy of that island. Fluctuating prices for sugar caused the prosperity of the island to fluctuate. So the local people went into the tourist industry with strength and determination. As a consequence, instead of fluctuating prosperity they now have a high level of permanent prosperity. During the Second World War, f had discussions with a United States entertainer who was visiting American Air Force units in the Mackay area. When he knew that I was interested in the tourist industry he undertook to get me some information from the Miami area, where he lived, and other tourist resorts. On examining the brochures with which he supplied me I found that the highest level of per capita income existed not in the great industrial cities of the United States of America but in the tourist centres. Not. only were real estate values higher in the tourist areas, generally speaking, because of their prosperity, but also the tourist districts were clean and did not have dirty, grimy industries. As a result, as 1 am sure the doctors in the Senate will acknowledge, the health of the people was generally better in tourist regions. These factors show just what the tourist industry can do for a community. It benefits penetrate throughout the entire community. They are enjoyed day in and day out throughout the year by those who do not deal directly with tourists just as much as by those who are engaged in the industry. The local residents in a tourist area thrive on the provision of services and facilities for tourists. Above all, the man on the land in the surrounding region enjoys prosperity because the demand for food and other products for tourists, as well as for the local people, ensures him of good markets. This is of special significance to producers of butter, meat, wheat, flour and similar foodstuffs. These effects, combined with the benefits of the employment provided for the work force engaged in the tourist industry amply demonstrate the value of this industry to the country. If Australia goes ahead with the promotion of its tourist business with enthusiasm, as 1 believe the Government intends, this country will be much better off. ! want to put to the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities (Mr Chipp) several concrete suggestions. The time is long overdue for us to designate the tourist business as an industry. We hear talk of tourism and we hear other terms used to describe it. There is a definite need to describe it as an industry. 1300 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator Davidson - It could be known as the travel industry. 1300 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - I believe that that is a good suggestion. Whatever expression is used, whether it bc 'travel industry*, 'tourist industry' or any other description, it is time the tourist business was designated as an industry. This would greatly help those who are engaged in it. The obtaining of finance presents problems today. People engaged in the tourist industry on the islands of the Great Barrier Reel" and elsewhere often find the raising of finance difficult because the tourist business is not designated as an industry. My knowledge of the industry convinces me that if it were officially designated as such the banks and other lending institutions would provide finance much more readily. Unfortunately, the tourist bushes* is at present regarded by many as some sort of plaything rather than as a distinct industry. I strongly urge the Minister to take whatever action is necessary to designate the tourist business as an industry. If he does this, he will greatly help those engaged in it, because it will become easier for them lo obtain finance when they require it. When the proposed Australian Tourist Commission is properly established and functioning well, it might be able to provide financial assistance for certain projects in co-operation wilh private enterprise in order to get worthwhile developments on the move. 1 know that for a number of years the Queensland Government, within the limits of its restricted resources, has guaranteed bank advances for certain people engaged in the tourist industry. The New Zealand Government also has cooperated in providing advances for the development of certain tourist areas. Though I. may appear to be mentioning these matters in only a somewhat nebulous way, I firmly believe that there may be opportunities for the Government to look into this aspect of tourist development and to see whether it can help by making finance more readily available so that projects may be initiated. Many projects would return considerable contributions to the Government's exchequer because they would increase incomes and thereby increase taxes. 1301 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - What kind of projects has the honourable senator in mind? 1301 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - Various projects come to mind. I shall give the honourable senator an illustration. Transport to island resorts on the Great Barrier Reef often is difficult and when the weather is bad tourists sometimes cannot land, lt might be possible for the Government to assist in the provision of better transport services to such places. The provision of good roads in various parts of Australia would open up considerable tourist possibilities. In co-operation with the States, the Commonwealth Government might consider various developments that would promote interest in tourist features. 1301 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - We could develop a few more places like Kings Cross. 1301 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - 1 do not know about that. We could develop places that would be more attractive in many ways than Kings Cross. Admittedly, it has an attraction for many people who want a certain kind of night life. There are many possibilities of development in the manner that I have suggested. 1 have not time to discuss them fully. Under the arrangements made for the debates today, while the proceedings are being broadcast, speaking times are limited. Therefore, I cannot discuss these matters in great detail. I just point out that there may be occasions when special action can be taken by the Government. Let us remember that development of the tourist industry to a higher level will bring the Government considerable returns in taxes. 1 shall have more to say about that later. The second matter to which I wish especially to direct the attention of the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities is the location of the headquarters of the proposed Australian Tourist Commission. I am sure that Senator Ormonde will be pleased to know that 1 strongly urge that the head office of the Commission bc in Sydney. There is a particular reason why 1 propose this. I am a Queenslander, but I am looking al this matter from the point of view of the tourist industry and the best operation of it. Most of the overseas airline and shipping companies ha.ve their headquarters in Sydney. Therefore, it would be much easier for the Commission to work in close contact with those organisations if its head office were in Sydney. 1 know that the Australian National Travel Association has been sited in Melbourne. 1301 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - One reason for thai is that Melbourne is central. 1301 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - In this instance the factor of centrality is overshadowed by the fact that Sydney will always be the major point of entry to Australia for overseas people. For that reason and the reasons that 1 advanced a minute ago, I strongly urge the Government to locate the head office of the Commission in Sydney. 1301 KRG 0 0 LILLICO, Alexander Senator Lillico - That is centralism. 1301 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - It is not a matter of centralism; it is a matter of having the Commission where the major operators in the tourist industry have their headquarters. Queensland is a very forward Stale as far as the tourist industry is concerned. The industry has been built up strongly in that State. I pay this tribute to Senator Morris: When he was the Minister for Tourism in Queensland, by his persistence and consistency in advocating it, he gave it the status of a real industry in the minds of the people of that State. I pay him that compliment because he did a very good job. 1301 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - He was not the first person to get on to it. 1301 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - He was the first Minister for Tourism in Queensland. As a Queenslander, I know how forward my State is in this industry. I have participated in the industry for more than 30 years. In the early days it was unpopular to talk about the tourist industry. I can remember all the things that were said when 1 first spoke about it when I was mayor of Mackay. 1 suggest that Queensland should have some representation on the Commission. I believe that membership of the Commission should be spread so that everything will not be concentrated in the south. Mr Wentworth made a good point in the other place when he 9 id that there should be some liaison between the Commission and the Parliament by means of representatives of the Senate and the House of Representatives being connected with the Commission in some way. Whilst the Minister in charge of the Commission will have contact with it, I believe that the Parliament should have direct contact with it so that we will know what is going on and will be able lo take a keener interest in the development of this very great industry. Another important aspect is that the more people we bring to Australia the more we build up friendship with other people. As honourable senators know, people are less likely to row and fight with friends than with people they do not know. If we can get to know other people and they can get to know us, this is one way of building up a bond of friendship between the peoples of different nations. Australia, being a great democracy, is a place to which people can come to see democracy really at work. 1 hope that the Government will put a considerable amount of money into the promotion of this industry. In 1950 I said that the Government should provide half a million pounds straight away and a million pounds a year thereafter. That would be S2m in our new currency. I hope the Government will provide more than that. I hope that it will bc imaginative. I am sure it will be. If we give this industry a strong shower of publicity in the countries from which we can expect tourists, just as a shower of rain will bring a good response from the soil, so will that strong shower of publicity bring a good response to the people of this country, lo business and industry and to the Government in the form of taxation revenue. We must remember that an investment by the Government in this industry will be a good one because the increasing prosperity of 'the people in the industry will mean more and more taxation revenue for the Government. So, I heartily commend the Government on this fine piece of visionary and forward thinking. This Bill is the best thing I have seen as far as the tourist industry is concerned. I am confident that when we look back on 1967 in a few years time we will say that it was the year of the great step forward in l he tourist industry of Australia. 1302 CJO Western Australia 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - The Opposition supports this Bill because wc believe that the tourist induslry is an important one which should be assisted by the Australian Government. We support the Bill particularly because the establishment of an Australian Tourist Commission follows in general the lines of approach of the Australian Labor Party to such matters; namely, that in any industry there should be a national planning body which is responsible to the Parliament and which directs the general purposes and activities of that industry. So we congratulate the Government on accepting one basic principle of Labor philosophy. The tourist industry is not a major industry in Australia at the moment, but it could be of the greatest importance to Australia. lt is important for three major reasons. The first, quite obviously, is the income, particularly by way of foreign exchange, that an adequately conducted tourist industry will bring to Australia. The more successful the tourist industry is, the more money will we receive from overseas and the greater will be the foreign exchange coming into (he hands of the Australian people. The second reason, to which Senator Wood referred in his very able speech, is that the tourist industry assists Australia to become known to people throughout the rest of the world. At the present time there is a great ignorance of Australia. The Labor Party agrees with the Government that the more overseas tourists or visitors come to Australia the better known will Australia become to people of other countries and the better will things be for world peace and for Australia in particular. The third reason, as Senator Wood also pointed out, is that, if the tourist industry is adequately constituted in various parts of Australia, it will be of great assistance to local areas and will help in the maintenance of those areas. Local industry may be in a difficult position in an area, and the population and general income of that area will be assisted by having the tourist industry there. However, it should be pointed out that it is no use just leaving these matters to luck. If we are to adequately plan the tourist industry so that the requirements of the population of particular areas may be taken into account, there needs to be some overall, national economic plan under which the tourist industry is considered not in isolation but as part of a coherent economic system. Clause 15 of the Bill provides that the Commission is established for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia and 1 .ravel in Australia by people from other countries. That is the basic purpose of the Commission. Sometimes it is very easy for us to delude ourselves by saying that, because we have in Australia a great many scenic beauties and a great many attractions which are sui generis or not to be found in any other part of the world, Australia naturally will become a popular tourist resort. I believe that there are two serious handicaps under which the overseas tourist industry in Australia has to operate. The first of those is the great distance to Australia from most of the centres from which tourists are likely to come. There is no doubt that, with the much faster air services that are being planned and the possible reduction in air fares because of the increased efficiency of the overseas airlines, it will be much easier to visit Australia in the future than it has been in the past. Nonetheless, the fact remains that it is easier for a Frenchman, for example, to go as a tourist to Italy where, he will find a country much different from France, or for an Englishman to go to Norway, than it is for either of them to come to Australia. In Europe they will see countries quite different from Australia and from their own countries. So, we have this great obstacle to overcome. The other obstacle that we have to overcome is, I think something inherent in the nature of the Australian continent. We have a wide variety of attractions. There is a great difference between the part of Australia represented by Senator Wood and the part represented by Senator O'Byrne - but in order to see the various parts of Australia the overseas tourist has to travel huge distances. A tourist in Europe, in a much smaller distance, can see a much greater variety. Whereas Australia virtually has a monolithic culture, a multiplicity of cultures and civilisations is to be found in Europe in an area similar to that of Australia. A tourist in Europe does not have to travel vast distances to see different types of scenery. This means that two things will have to be done. I believe that these will become the responsibility of the Australian Tourist Commission. The first is that steps must be taken to see that very efficient airline services are provided to bring overseas tourists to Australia. I know :hat, whatever we do, very great difficulties will be involved in achieving what we desire, but I do believe that by way of government subsidy or in some other fashion steps should be taken to see that tourist fares from the United States of America, Europe and elsewhere to Australia are reduced to the lowest economic level. If this is not done people just will not come to Australia because of the lares that they will have to pay in addition co the time it will take them to reach Australia. For example, nobody who lives in New York and who has nes«er been to Europe is likely to come to Australia before seeing Europe. As I have said Australia has a monolithic civilisation and ils scenery and attractions are spread very widely. No person from France, for instance, is likely to come to Australia until he has visited Germany. No person from Norway is likely to come to Australia until he has visited France. These are all great difficulties that will have to be overcome. I believe that the only way in which they can be overcome is by seeing that the most efficient means of transport is provided to bring tourists to Australia. The fares should be the lowest possible. 1303 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - All the <ame, a number of our people go overseas before they go interstate. 1303 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - It is true, as Senator Hannaford said, that a number of our people go overseas before they go interstate. This only adds to my argument. These people need to go oversea? in order to see some variety. They cannot find in Australia the variety that is to be found in other parts of the world. A popular form of travel for the overseas tourist who arrives in Australia - one finds this in Europe and, J understand, in the United States of America - is the motor car. At present road surfaces are grossly inadequate for our vast distances. We have nothing that corresponds to the autostrades in France and the autobahns in Germany. In New South Wales, for example, we find that vast tracts of country are served by so-called major highways which are like village paths. Road markings are inadequate and it is very easy lo become lost. The motorist often cannot tell whether he is on the Hume Highway or the Federal Highway. When one compares this with the sort of thing that one finds in Europe - adequate road markings with huge cross-country roads - one realises thaAustralia is very sadly lacking. These are matters that I believe will have to be corrected. A total Government plan :s required. Nonetheless, the Opposition docs welcome the establishment of the Commission. At least Australia is to have a responsible body which can engage in an overall national plan for tourism. The Opposition trusts that the Commission will exercise ils functions in a proper manner and will do something to see that the tourist industry is no longer built up on a piecemeal basis but in accordance with an overall policy, as has been done in many other countries. SenatorMARRIOTT (Tasmania) 14.1 lj - I rise to support the Australian Tourist Commission Bill which represents yet another step forward by this Government in its approach to the development of Australia in 1967. This is the legislative fulfilment of yet another promise made by the Government at the last election and 1 am glad thai it is receiving the commendation of both sides of the Senate. Few people who take any real interest in the future of Australia would nol say that the development of the tourist industry throughout this nation is of vital importance. Therefore, one does not need to rise in the Senate and argue against a contrary view. We all feel that we have some knowledge of the tourist industry and views as to how we would like to see it developed. The purpose that the Government has in mind in introducing this legislation is clearly and briefly stated in the second reading speech of the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty). In the opening paragraph of his speech, the Minister stated: The purpose of this Bill is to establish an Australian Tourist Commission for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia, and travel in Australia, by people from other countries. This is not a Bill that affects an individual State. This is not a debate in which it is necessary for any honourable senator to extol the tourist attractions or potential of the State he or she represents. All Australians are agreed that we have a country richly blessed by nature which could be a mecca for many hundreds of thousands of tourists. The Commonwealth is embarking on its new interest in this industry at a most suitable time. The world tourist industry is affluent. The airline industry is so greatly developed that anybody who desires to come to Australia and has the money can gel here in a short time in modern international jets. From his point of arrival in this Commonwealth, the tourist can board other modern jets and first class aircraft and be taken over the many hundreds of thousands of miles of country worth seeing in Australia. The Bill before the Senate ties the tourist function of government to the Department of Trade and Industry. This action is worthy of note. There is no doubt that tourism is an industry. That cannot be argued, lt can be seen, therefore, that tourism can rightly be placed under the domination of the Department of Trade and Industry. Many of us were very pleased for two reasons when the new Holt-McEwen Cabinet was announced to learn that there had been appointed lo the Cabinet a Minister for the Navy who would be also, under the Minister for Trade and Industry. Minister in Charge of Tourist Activities. 1304 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - Appointed to the Ministry, not to the Cabinet. 1304 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator MARRIOTT - I stand corrected on that minor point and I thank Senator Dittmer for his courtesy. 1 remind the Senate that we are not legislating for the man and we are not legislating for today; we are legislating for the development of an industry in the future and the person who will administer the legislation setting up the Australian Tourist Commission will change from time to time. Perhaps there will be varying political outlooks if an alternative government ever rises in Australia. So it is important to realise that under this legislation we are tying the development of tourism to the Department of Trade and Industry and that, in this great developing Australia, tourism will become a very important adjunct of Commonwealth responsibility. Through the great drive of the present Minister for Trade and Industry, the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr McEwen), Australia has trade commissioners and other officers in many parts of the world who can readily help foster the aims of the legislation. The purpose of the legislation is to bring people from outside Australia to visit us and to travel within Australia. It is readily understood that visitors will make up their own minds about where in Australia they will travel. The sovereign States will play their part by promoting facilities which will attract travellers whom wc bring to the Commonwealth. We cannot and we should not interfere with the sovereignty of the States in this respect. However, I believe that the State governments will be pleased at the step that is being taken by the Commonwealth to bring people to Australia. The legislation will enliven the interest of State governments which are tourist minded to develop further the potential of the industry. The two well known American companies which acted as consultants to the Government on tourism told us that in developing this industry we are definitely chasing a $lOOm industry. As much as $100m in foreign currency could be spent in Australia each year. So this industry is well worth chasing. It is unfortunate that many business people and others in Australia need to be reminded of what a tremendously widespread effect the tourist industry has on our economy. Those of us who were present in the Senate during the latter stages of the debate on the Address-in-Reply and who heard Senator Wood speak in that debate heard a clear and enlightening enunciation of what great value the tourist industry is to every sector of the community and to every township, village or city which makes provision for and attracts tourists. 1 believe that Senator Wood's remarks should be widely read and widely known by business people in Australia. It is true to say that in some parts of Australia some people decry the value of tourism. This is a selfish attitude. They say that they do not want their beaches crowded with tourists and they do not want their resorts packed out with tourists who may want to spend holidays at those places. This selfish argument denies the facts which were stated by Senator Wood. Our whole economy and, naturally, the economy of each State, is strengthened greatly as the tourist industry develops. Two other aspects of this industry make it a worthwhile subject for legislation by the national Government. Travel is. a means of fostering goodwill and international understanding, and if ever that were needed in the world it is needed now. Anything that we can do through the tourist industry to bring people to Australia so that we can understand their points of view and they can understand ours and learn that we are not altogether a country of waltzing matildas and koala bears but have a growing, powerful and rich nation is to bc commended. Another aspect or" tourism is its great value to education. As one travels about the country one is delighted to meet young people who are visiting Australia and who are learning at first hand what this country holds. Speaking on a national basis, we have been lucky in the past to have had the Australian National Travel Association. This is a free enterprise organisation, solidly supported in growing liberality by the present Government in the work that it does, lt is interesting vo note that $862,000 was made available from Federal revenue to this association for the current financial year. The Association looks to the job of enticing travellers to Australia and helps to enthuse the States to prepare their own areas for the enjoyment and education of tourists. I repeat, that this is a $lOOm industry on which we have set our sights for the next few years. Because of the experience gained by the Australian National Travel Association, its proved ability and its dedication to the industry, it is wise and proper that the Commonwealth Government should be to a very large extent guided by the Association and by the consultants who were brought here to advise us. In the Commission to be established by the legislation two voting members will come either from the Association or from ils panel of nominees. 1 presume that they will be selected and appointed by the Minister Tor Trade and Industry, or whoever he deputises. The Commission will have three other voting members. Here I come to what may be termed a point of criticism, an expression of disappointment and wonderment at one aspect of the Bill, an aspect on which I I question the Government's wisdom. 1 refer to the fact that from my reading of the Bill and of the second reading speech it appears that no-one can say from where the other three voting members will come, except that they will come from Commonwealth Government departments. I believe that the Senate should know the type, rank and grade of the officers and the Department that will provide them. We are giving a blank cheque to the Administration to appoint three Commonwealth public servants. That is all that we are doing. On my reading of the second reading speech, the officers could come from the Prime Minister's Department, the Department of Trade and Industry or from the Department of the Interior - because the Department of the Interior administers the News and Information Bureau. The Government may have in mind the best possible men. Its judgment may bc beyond question, but I question its right not to give this Parliament in the legislation or in the second reading speech, more detailed information as to the calibre or standing of the men or women who will become members of the Australian Tourist Commission. The Bill disappoints me in several other ways in respect of what it does not spell out for the information of this Parliament. The finance to be available to it is possibly a question that the Government considered unnecessary to answer. Perhaps at the moment it could not give us an appropriate guess as to what money will be made available but on my reading of the legislation there again the Government has an open cheque to spend as little or as much as it deems fit, if and when it takes notice of any or all of the findings or recommendations of the Commission. The Commission is lo have two non-voting members. Personally. I am against any committee or commission or executive body that includes in its makeup non-voting members, fi can get people who are dedicated and prepared to give their ideas to it, but when it comes to a decision as to whether or not their ideas will be put 110 0 operation they must remain powerless. I do not agree with the idea of having a commission with two nonvoting members but I am pleased that the two non-voting members will be nominated by the States. I do nol want to be accused of being super-critical but so uncertain is the wording of this legislation that I have fears. I always fear governments or organisations of any sort that do not spell out what they intend to do particularly in regard to appointments of major importance. As far as 1 can gather, the State Ministers in charge of tourism will meet and nominate two persons or a panel from which the two nonvoting members of the Commission will bc named. I hope that the situation does not arise that after the first announcement we find that an official, say from Queensland, and another from Western Australia will serve a period, and that during the next term there will be two others, and so as the years roll on the positions will be just automatically filled because so many years ago such and such a person from such and such a State served. This Commission is the kernel of a wonderful idea. I hope that the Government gives it strength and cooperation. Apart from the criticisms that I have voiced as an individual, I support the legislation. 1306 K8N South Australia 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I am glad to be in the position that I can wholeheartedly commend the Government for taking this step to appoint an Australian Tourist Commission. Any remarks that I have to make - these will be brief - will be directed towards what may be called constructive suggestions which would help to make this Commission function in the way in which we hope it will function. Honourable senators know, of course, that until this Bill came before the Senate tourist activities in Australia were in the main promoted by the various State Governments and the Australian National Travel Association, which in my opinion deserves every bit of the praise and commendation given to it by the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) in his second reading speech. The Association, quite wisely I think, has recognised that the question of promoting tourism should now be tackled on a national basis and it has recommended this to the Government. We can record appreciation of the work that this Association has performed in the past and perhaps express a hope that the knowledge and facilities that it has compiled over the years will be readily available to the Commission and that its advice will be accepted by the Commission. It is rather coincidental that two specific matters referred to by both Senator Marriott and Senator Wheeldon should be the two main points on which I base my intrusion into this debate. Senator Marriott rightly touched on the rather narrow ambit of appointments to the Commission itself. I had feelings of misgiving about the rather vague way in which it is suggested the Commission should be appointed. I do not want the Minister to think that this is criticism of an unconstructive nature but perhaps the Commission could be more widely represented than is implied in the present terms of the Bill. The proposal is that it should comprise five voting members and two non-voting members, all to be appointed by the Governor-General. Senator Marriott, I think rightly, posed a question as to the qualifications of those who will be appointed to the Commission. He suggested - J think his fears are possibly well founded - that they will be public servants and that whether or not they will be qualified to carry out the duties that we feel the Commission should carry out will be left to chance. I would have preferred to see the constitution of the Commission more widely representative of tourist specialists from the various States who could give to the Commission their knowledge on matters concerned with tourism in Australia. If something like this is not done the Commission will have to start from scratch and possibly will have to seek from such people in the initial stages advice and assistance in relation to its operations. I think there is a touch of vagueness about the constitution of the Commission. I agree with the claim by Senator Marriott that the second reading speech could have been much more explicit about the duties of the commissioners and their qualifications. The Senate is entitled to some further explanation along those lines. Perhaps when the Minister replies he will find himself in a position to give us some extra information on what I consider to be an extremely valid point raised by Senator Marriott with regard to the constitution of the Commission. Let me say that the support I give Senator Marriott on this point does not arise from a desire to engage in carping criticism. It is a point that occurred to me, just as it occurred to him. The fact that he raised it first makes it no less valid. In fact, it perhaps adds to its validity. I hope the Government will give very serious consideration to what I consider is perhaps the weakest point of the Bill. I refer, firstly, to the extremely vague terms of the explanation relating to the proposed members of the Commission and, secondly, to what J consider to be the somewhat restrictive method of appointing the commissioners in view of the great number of people experienced in this field who are available throughout Australia. Another point that 1 want to raise is one that 1 think was very ably put by Senator Wheeldon. He suggested that the usefulness of the commission could well be limited by the fact that we have not taken action in other fields. I am referring here to the suggestion by Senator Wheeldon that some form of inducement will inevitably have to be given to people from overseas if we expect them to avail themselves of the tourist facilities in this country. The Minister has rightly pointed out in his second reading speech that in J 965-66 an amount of $65m was added to the credit of Australia's balance of payments by the tourist industry, lt is obvious, therefore, that if we can expand this industry the benefits that will flow from its operations will be of inestimable value to the future of this country. The Government has recognised, this fact by its very action in introducing this measure. I feel that the appointment of a commission of the character proposed will be only the beginning of many other things that must accompany it. Senator Wheeldon suggested one of those things. We should offer inducements of a material character to the people whom we want to bring from overseas to enjoy the various facilities of this country. In my opinion, it would not be drawing too much on the imagination if the Australian Government were to give consideration to building its own ships to bring people to this country and to offering them greatly reduced fares in order to give them the opportunity of seeing Australia without straining their purse strings too much. I know that other countries heavily subsidise their tourist attractions and I think it is inevitable that we will have to make considerable concessions in this direction also. 1 submit that the point raised by Senator Wheeldon is one that must, of necessity, merit very serious examination by the Government. What form the inducements will take, 1 do not know, but I think that the offering of inducements becomes inevitable. Another matter that disturbs me somewhat in relation to this Bill is that certain specific guarantees are given that the Commission itself will not intrude into certain fields. 1 think that in its desire not to cut across or in any way inhibit the operation of the various State tourist branches there may be an unconscious desire on the part of the Commission to restrict its own operations. I note that the Minister said in his second reading speech that the Commission's activities primarily would be concerned with the overseas promotion of our tourist industry. I respectfully suggest to the Senate that if the Commission concerns itself almost exclusively with the question of the promotion overseas of our tourist activities it will fail in the objective that I think the Senate wants it to achieve - the setting up and expansion of the tourist industry in Australia. I believe this to be something really worth while. I feel that we have tourist attractions in this country far off the beaten path that will equal those anywhere else in the world. We have beauty spots in remote areas of Australia that I believe the people of the various countries of the world would flock to see if we could find facilities for bringing people to them cheaply and comfortably. What we need are landing strips and aircraft to transport people to places such as Wilpena Pound and the Flinders Ranges, to which, in the main, the only means of getting people in any numbers is by motor coach and then sometimes only after an exhausting journey. This argument applies with even greater force to some of the great tourist attractions of the Northern Territory and north Queensland where no doubt great scenic appeal exists, but the means of reaching them are just not available. I think that, instead of being restricted almost exclusively to concern with the promotion of overseas tourist business, the Commission should have the right - indeed if it is going to succeed it must have the right - to make recommendations as to what should be done in Australia if we are to induce these people to make the journey from overseas. I submit this becomes an extremely important aspect of the whole matter. I would hope that this implied restriction in the second reading speech will not be interpreted by the Commission, when it is appointed, as one which prevents it from making recommendations along the lines I have mentioned. 1308 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - The honourable senator knows, of course, of the great work that all the States do in promoting internal tourism, does he not? 1308 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - Yes. 1 have already made some slight reference to this. I am not unaware of the work they are doing. I know that to some extent at least they are bridging this gap that 1 mention and to which I commend the scrutiny of the Commission, but 1 respectfully suggest that there are circumstances where the State could not possibly provide the service. I am suggesting with all respect that aircraft be used to take great numbers of visitors to places such as Ayers Rock in Central Australia, one of the great sights of the world, in comfort. Again, comfortable aircraft could transport passengers to the Flinders Ranges, one of the greatest winter playgrounds of the world. Admittedly facilities have been put forward by the governments of South Australia over the years with respect to the Flinders Ranges, but the question of providing adequate and proper landing grounds and other facilities is beyond the capacity of the State's finances. I am suggesting that in situations such as that the Commission should not find itself inhibited by an implied restriction in its terms of operation, which would prevent it from giving due consideration to that point. I mention this point only because I see in the second reading speech the specific statement that the Commission will be primarily concerned with the overseas promotion of tourist activities. I hope we can do something along these lines. The only other thing I want to do is to use the parish pump, perhaps rather heavily. I have noticed in debates of this kind in the Senate and in the other place that there is a tendency for members and senators to extol the virtues of their respective States. More power to their elbows. I would not take from any honourable senator the right to advertise anything that his State may have to offer. 1309 K1T 0 0 BENN, Archibald Senator Benn - The Gold Coast is the holiday place for the whole of Australia. Good wine needs no bush. 1309 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - We have heard Senator Benn mention the Gold Coast- 1309 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - We can tell you about the Barrier Reef too. 1309 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I have seen both the Gold Coast and the Barrier Reef and accept the fact that they have much to offer but I say, as kindly as I can, that although in South Australia we do not have garish places like Surfers Paradise where 'the neon lights burn, as well as the sun, we have beaches just as good as, if not better than, those anywhere in the world, let alone Surfers Paradise. I regret that Senator Benn has tempted me into perhaps over-emphasising some of these things. I have mentioned the Flinders Ranges and I am sure that any honourable senator who has seen them in .he appropriate season will agree with me wholeheartedly that they provide one of the great beauty spots in this country, if not in the world. 1309 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator Davidson - And the Barossa Valley. 1309 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - And the Barossa Valley, the beautiful Adelaide hills, the upper Murray areas and the historic and beautiful Wallaroo. But these are only places that we mention to bolster the attractions of our own States. Like other States, South Australia has its beauty spots. Basically this Bill is not concerned with the parish pump, lt is a piece of legislation that we can all applaud because I believe it will set in motion a national awareness of the fact that Australia has great opportunities in the tourist industry. 1 commend the Government for taking the step thai it has taken in this direction. I hope that whatever weaknesses are contained in the present Bill will be rectified in due course. 1309 JUH Tasmania 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I join in the comments which have been made by honourable senators on both sides of the House concerning this Bill. The Government, has turned its attention to promoting the concept of a national tourist industry. I hope that it will exploit fully all avenues for promoting our tourist attractions while at the same time being willing to accept ideas presented to it to encourage tourism, from whatever source such ideas may come. With this thought in mind I offer a few observations on the subject. The first thing to which we should turn our attention in considering the concept of a national tourist industry is the provision of finance for tourist facilities in areas of tourist attraction. Then, of course, there is the additional problem of making such projects an economic proposition throughout the year. Many resorts in Australia have a limited potential because of seasonal conditions. One need only mention beaches, snowfields and mountain resorts, all of which have a limited season. The establishment of the right kind of facilities for tourists in such places entails expenditure of a substantial amount of money but the business which can be done in a short season hardly enables the businessman concerned to recoup his expenses. This is an aspect which must be given some consideration. The Government must be aware of these special problems - no doubt it will become aware of them - so that in the course of its deliberations on this subject it can take some worthwhile steps to facilitate the establishment of places where a limited tourist season reduces the monetary return. So that this legislation will not be delayed unduly I shall refer only briefly to a number of suggestions designed to promote a national tourist industry. First of all, we must be conscious of the need to keep our transport system in first-class order. I have in mind our air, sea and road systems. I think the most important thing is to provide an adequate road service to enable visitors to travel to areas of tourist attraction without the hazards associated with poor roads. Conscious of the fact that the Government has been collecting petrol tax since 1926 and that since that time about $780m has been paid into Consolidated Revenue. I believe the Government could well channel more of this revenue into our road systems through the agency of the State governments and the local government institutions so that our roads can be brought up to modern standards. We have heard of the need to provide adequate accommodation. This is a matter which must come under the eye of the Government or of the proposed Commission because a reasonable level of accommodation for tourists is necessary. Accommodation of a high standard does exist in many places but sometimes it exceeds the expectations and the wishes of travellers. We must keep in mind that many people who visit Australia do not belong to the most affluent section of the society in which they live abroad. Many are retired public servants and people who have saved for many years with the idea of some day visiting a country like Australia. The standard of accommodation must be adequate for those people. 1 do not think they want gold knobs on doors and things like that. Provided the accommodation is of a good general standard 1 am sure that they will be satisfied. I have mentioned the financial aspect of establishing facilities at tourist attractions. 1 know that some States provide funds for this purpose. Another point to which the Government could give some thought is the provision of adequate road signs. If people are travelling in Australia they want to know where they are going and the distance between various centres. They want a clear indication of cities, towns and the points of scenic attraction they wish to see. Also, we might look again at the Australian highway code and see how this can be co-ordinated with the codes of other countries so that the codes will be more or less uniform. Visitors then will be more at home in following the traffic regulations which exist in various parts of Australia. The comfort of the travelling public has been mentioned - the provision of heating in the colder climates and air conditioning in the warmer areas. One thing which may not have occurred to honourable senators but which has always rather annoyed me when travelling is the obnoxious practice of tipping. Perhaps we could in the course of our considerations of this important question of tourism endeavour to promote opposition to tipping. To me it seems to be a completely wrong practice. A guest pays for his accommodation, generally in advance and he should not have to pay out all the time for tips and so on. In so many places it seems to be an established practice. We should try to get it across that we are completely against it. I am totally opposed to tipping and I believe that it does not help tourism in any way. 1310 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - It is hard to eradicate now. 1310 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I know. But I have read that in England, where it is a prevalent practice, there has been some success in stopping it. I make that passing observation. Tipping can cause quite a deal of embarrassment to people who are not well supplied with funds and find that they have to pay for something they cannot afford. 1310 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - People who do not tip generally are discriminated against by waiters. 1310 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - That does happen. If something could be done to stop tipping, I would be happy to see it. I believe that there are opportunities for the souvenir industry in Australia as part and parcel of tourism. 1310 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - The souvenirs are all made in Japan. 1310 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I was about to comment on that point. Many of the souvenirs available to visitors to Australia - boomerangs and such things - are stamped Made in Japan' or 'Made in Hong Kong'. 1310 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator Toohey - The same is true in the United States of America. The souvenirs on sale there are made in Japan. 1310 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - Does that apply to souvenirs that people take from dining room tables? 1310 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I was not referring to that. It had not occurred to me. I believe that the general public can help tremendously by making our tourists happy. On many trips I have made - interstate and other trips - the local residents have gone out of their way to make me feel at home and have willingly given me directions to this or that tourist attraction. I believe that the general public can help a lot in this direction. We must be more conscious than we are at present of our wonderful natural resources in the form of forests and other scenic attractions. Senator Mulvihill said that we must be much more conscious of the perennial problem of fires. We can reduce the incidence of fires. Means used in other parts of the world to deal with fires expeditiously should be adopted in Australia. We are too slow off the mark and we are not up with the latest practices in fire fighting and control. On the subject of historical homes, finance is always a problem in preservation. While preservation organisations in the States are doing a particularly good job in this respect with very limited finance, perhaps the Commonwealth could have a look al this matter and endeavour to assist the historical trusts to purchase and maintain buildings of great historical interest. Some areas of Australia are rich in the history of early settlement. I have particularly in mind the grave of the child of the Irish political exile. Thomas Francis Meagher, in Tasmania. He escaped from Tasmania to the United States of America where he became leader of the Irish contingent in the American Civil War. He later became Administrator of the State of Montana, and subsequently Governor. The grave of his only child is in the cemetery at the Catholic church at Richmond in Tasmania. It is the oldest Catholic church in Australia and it is built beside the oldest bridge in Australia. It is an area of tremendous historical interest to people from other parts of the world. The grave of the first prisoner of war who died in Australia - a Maori chief who was taken to Tasmania at the time of the Maori wars - is on Maria Island. I believe that these are places of tremendous historical interest to people who come from overseas. Such information should be used in promotional campaigns. " A study of methods used in the tourist industry overseas would be of benefit. European countries have a very high level of tourist activity each year and I believe that we could learn quite a deal from those countries. Recently I had a discussion with the Indonesian Director of Public Health about the differences which appear to exist between our countries. He mentioned to me the great benefit to be gained by both countries as a result of greater acceleration of visits between the ordinary people of the two countries. I believe that good relations between countries which may reciprocate in tourism play a very significant part. Migrants who have settled in Australia can do a great deal to promote tourism to this country. Their home ties are still very strong with their country of origin. Correspondence flows between the countries and as time goes on it could encourage people to visit Australia. In time it may have a bearing on our immigration programme in that visitors who find that they like Australia and that it suits them may decide to stay here. 1 want to refer now to problems which can arise when our transport systems are not up to scratch. I refer, for example, to the problem of the Bass Strait ferry service which has been operating now through the Princess of Tasmania' for some years. It has been evident to many people for quite a long while that a great deal more could be done to facilitate the transport of people between Australian ports, and particularly to Tasmania, by the use of a sister ship to the 'Princess of Tasmania'. It has been estimated that potential tourist expenditure in Tasmania of $2im a year has been lost because of the lack of a sister ferry ship carrying about 200 passengers a trip to Tasmania. The need has been realised and the Government has seen the justice of the case thai has been made out for an additional ship. It has decided to build a sister ship to the 'Princess of Tasmania'. In the interim we believe that each year about $2 1/2m is lost as potential tourist expenditure in Tasmania. Shipping is only one problem to be considered in relation to the tourist industry. I hope that what I have said - in a condensed form in the interests of getting this Bill through the Senate - will be of some benefit to those people whose responsibility it ultimately will be to ensure that the tourist industry gets under way and becomes a reality. Australia can then gain tremendous benefit not only in an economic sense but in so many other ways from a viable tourist industry. 1311 KUD Victoria 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - I desire to say first that along with other honourable senators who have spoken in this debate 1 welcome this Bill. I think it is a very gratifying advance towards bringing about a situation in regard to tourism which will be greatly to Australia's advantage. Tourism today is big business. Some countries have found it most advantageous not only because of the money that is spent inside the country but also from the point of view of its effect on overseas balances. I think that we must pay a tribute to what has been done for tourism in this country in the last few years. There has been considerable improvement in the standard of accommodation. Powerful moves have been made by those interested in the industry to get together and to co-ordinate their efforts. But there was something lacking, and I think that this Bill is a strong step in providing that which was lacking. I will speak only briefly. I want to refer to one particular aspect which some may regard as trivial but which I do not. 1 think we all noticed in the second reading speech of the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) the statement that one thing we must do is to improve our facilities inside Australia. I want to refer to the fact that the city in which our Parliament is located is today becoming an important tourist centre. We only have to look into King's Hall to see how people are regarding our Parliament as one of the places which they must visit. Tourists coming to Canberra are provided with very satisfactory air and bus services, but rail services, particularly from between Melbourne, which after all is a large and populous city, and Canberra are in my opinion entirely unsatisfactory. Last year I took occasion to refer to the unsatisfactory nature of the rail services, particularly between Canberra and Melbourne, and to point out the effect that this must have had upon tourists who desired to use such services. I wrote to the Ministers in charge of railways in New South Wales, Victoria and the Commonwealth. I asked for some action to be taken to improve rail services, particularly between Canberra and Melbourne. The result of my efforts was absolutely nil. I think it is deplorable that it is not possible for the combined efforts of the railway departments of New South Wales, Victoria and the Commonwealth, to provide a reasonable train service, particularly an overnight train service, between Melbourne and this capital of ours which is becoming such an important tourist centre. In those circumstances it did not do my blood pressure any good to read in a publication entitled 'Railways of Australia Network', which is issued by our railways departments, what appears to be a glowing tribute to rail services and the suggestion that tourists coming to Canberra would be well advised to take advantage of what are called the 'excellent' train services available between Melbourne and the national capital. If any tourists are contemplating coming to Canberra from Victoria, particularly from Melbourne, I want to give them a powerful warning against what they will have to face if they propose to come by rail. A significant statement appears in the report of the Commonwealth Railways which was issued in February of this year. It states: Passenger traffic to Canberra is not commensurate with the rise in population to nearly 100,000 people and it may be necessary to look at the question of some improvement in existing train services by providing extra rolling stock. Of course the rail traffic is not commensurate with a city of 100,000 people, and one would not expect it to be commensurate in view of the fact that the three departments concerned - the railways departments in the Commonwealth, in New South Wales and in Victoria - have completely fallen down on the job of providing the type of service that one would expect for a city like Canberra. Instead in some respects we have a service that would be unworthy of the worst hill-billy state in America. First of all, for the tourist who decides that he will see the country by coming by rail from Melbourne, if he wants to come overnight, according to this advertising material for the service a special air conditioned carriage is attached to the Spirit of Progress. That is so, but it only runs on four nights a week. Apparently the railway departments are particularly careful not to harm the airways services because they select nights on which to run a train right into Canberra which will do least damage to the airways. A tourist or a person having business in Canberra who wants to come from Melbourne, normally would want to come up on Monday night and be in Canberra on the Tuesday morning because Parliament meets on that day. So what do the railway departments do? They do not run a train on the Monday night when obviously most traffic would be available, although they complain that they are not getting a fair percentage of passenger traffic. Instead they run a train on the nights when they will do least harm to the airways services. Again, Parliament finishes on Thursday. What do the railway departments do? So that they will not harm the airways services, their run a train back to Melbourne on Wednesday and on Friday. They carefully miss out Thursday when there would be a demand for rail services. I want to point out this for the hopeful soul who says: T read about these magnificent rail cars coming up from Melbourne into Canberra on four nights a week'. When he goes along and tries to book he finds out that this service from Melbourne, which is a city of between two million and three million people, consists of one carriage. Even that carriage does not consist of sleepers although it is run at night, lt consists partly of sleepers and partly of sections in which people have to sit up. Naturally, except on occasions when there is practically nothing doing, it frequently happens that the hopeful tourist who wants to book to Canberra, in order to go in comfort, says: 'I will go on the off nights if that is the only time when they run the train'. He is told that they are sorry, but the train is booked out because they cannot run a whole carriage which consists completely of sleepers between Melbourne and Canberra. They run a carriage which consists partly of sleepers and partly of a section in which people sit up. If the tourist finds that he cannot get on this particular carriage because it happens to be booked out, what happens? They put him in an air conditioned train in which he can get a sleeper as far as Goulburn. If he travels on the Monday night he has to get out at Goulburn at twenty-five past five in the morning, and believe me, Goulburn in the middle of winter at twenty-five past five in the morning is no joke. The railways take this passenger who comes from Melbourne and decant him on the platform at Goulburn at twenty-five past five in the morning and then he has to get on what they call a train'. On a previous occasion I said that from the appearance of the branch train running from Goulburn to Canberra, it was almost certainly used to transport troops in the Crimean War. After having been in an air conditioned train until half past five in the morning, this passenger is put in this branch train with no form of heating at all. It is dirty and decrepit and it has disgraceful lavatory accommodation. Then he travels in that train into the queen city of the southern hemisphere, the capital of this mighty country of Australia. 1313 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - How long does it take him to come from Goulburn? 1313 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - It takes two hours to travel the sixty miles from Goulburn. A poor unfortunate tourist who decided" to travel to Canberra on the Monday night to see the Parliament in action and who was bundled out on the platform at Goulburn at 5.25 a.m. in the middle of winter would need unfreezing, if I may use that expression, by the time he reached Canberra. Tourists from overseas, if they wanted to see the countryside, could travel to the national capital by the daylight express from Melbourne. It is a very comfortable train. They would get to Yass about five in the afternoon. In the middle of winter, Yass is like Goulburn - extremely cold, lt is no joke to have to get out of a warm and comfortable air conditioned train al: Yass it five in the afternoon and complete the journey to Canberra in a motor bus that has no heating or air conditioning, arriving at the National Capital about 6.20 p.m. This is by no means the most convenient time to arrive anywhere. But that is the best that the tourist can do. Despite the conditions that I have described, we find in this railways publication an exhortation to tourists to try out the train services to Canberra. I have travelled from Melbourne to small Victorian towns of 7,000, 8,000 or 10,000 people situated on branch lines, and I have always been able to travel in an air conditioned carriage. One is at least warm in the middle of winter in such a carriage, lt seems appalling that in a country like Australia the National Capital is served by train services which, as I said before, would be a disgrace in the worst hill-billy State in South America. 1313 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - Perhaps the honourable senator has suffered because an Australian Labor Party adherent was getting even with him. 1313 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - I do not suggest that. In all instances a Liberal Government and a Liberal Minister have been responsible. So it is not the fault of the Australian Labor Party. I conclude, more in sorrow than in anger, Mr President, by saying that it is bad enough if tough Australians are to be compelled to put up with travelling conditions of the kind that I have described. Surely we would not try to persuade tourists to try out such conditions. Therefore, I urge the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities (Mr Chipp) to warn intending tourists that in no circumstances should they try out the rail services to Canberra, which are provided by the Victorian Railways Department, the New South Wales Department of Railways and the Commonwealth Railways. 1314 KOO Queensland 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - Mr President, I support the Bill. I do not wish to traverse again all the arguments expounded by speakers on both sides of House who have already stated their support of it. 1314 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Then the honourable senator can sit down now. 1314 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - The honourable senator has already spoken of the tourist industry in his part of Australia. 1 propose to deal with the tourist industry as it exists in another part of the country, where the situation is quite different. I consider that I have a duty to speak on this measure because 1 live in one of the largest tourist centres of Australia - Surfers Paradise. It is a centre built entirely on tourism and it caters for both Australians and visitors from overseas. The word 'tourism' means a great deal to an area of fifty square miles centred on the Queensland coast at Surfers Paradise. I realise that this Bill is concerned mainly wilh the encouraging of overseas tourists to come here. But we must also consider the importance of tourism as an industry in relation to our economy. Not wishing to be parochial, 1 point out that in the last twelve months the revenue of the tourist industry in the small area of southern Queensland and northern New South Wales that is known as the Gold Coast amounted to $70m. Senator Marriott mentioned the magnitude of Australia's tourist industry and suggested that it was worth $100m a year. 1 believe that this puts it on too small a scale in view of the revenue of the industry in southern Queensland in the last twelve months. The ramifications of the tourist industry are immense. Many of them have been mentioned already. There has been much criticism of our amenities, travel facilities, accommodation and the like. I suggest that local government authorities take note of what has been done overseas, particularly in Germany. I believe that that is the country that originated a tax that is known there as the kur tax. In our currency it is the equivalent of 2s per bed per night. This tax is paid by every tourist in the tourist areas of the country. The object in introducing it was to avoid penalising the local citizens of the tourist regions. I understand that in Switzerland this tax rises to the rate of 2i% of the overall charge made at motels, hotels, boarding houses and the like. Local authorities in Australia should carefully consider the advantages to be gained by imposing this relatively small tax. I suggest thai its proceeds should be used only by local government authorities and that it should be devoted to the development of their own areas. Tourism, by contributing the proceeds of this tax, would do much to help us to do away with many so called run down motels, hotels and railways and other travel facilities about which we have been told in this debate. The expenditure of the proceeds of this tax, which would be contributed largely by overseas tourists, would enable us to develop and improve many aspects of our tourist industry and particulary our travel facilities. As I have said, the ramifications of tourism are immense. Building is an important associated industry that employs many people. But there are other associated industries that have not been mentioned. One is the clothing industry. Any tourist who travels outside his own country usually returns home with purchases of clothing in the fashion of the country or countries visited. Many new clothing factories are being established in Australia and many existing ones are being enlarged rapidly. Indeed, many of our clothing factories are already exporting. 1314 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - The factories may be getting bigger, but the clothing is not. 1314 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - That may be so. The clothing industry offers considerable prospects for development and I believe that an influx of overseas tourists will help to expand it. An associated matter is the decentralisation of industry. With the development of tourism, the associated industries, such as building and its ancillary industries, will be decentralised throughout the country to a degree. I believe that there are very few parts of Australia where the tourist industry could not flourish. Therefore, development of this industry will help various facets of other industries to spread throughout the Commonwealth. In passing, I point out that tourism introduces many new ideas. Touching on a matter mentioned by Senator Tangney, I point out that on the Gold Coast we have introduced meter maids clad in bikinis. This development is being carried a stage further by the appointment of courtesy maids whose attire will be less brief than bikinis. These courtesy maids will be on duty at airports, railway stations and bus terminals to advise incoming tourists on the accommodation and facilities available and the attractions that may be seen in the area they are visiting. So much for the lighter side of the matter. In my view, the most important aspect of this Bill is ils effect on our international relations. This was mentioned by Senator Wood, who, I believe, discussed it most effectively. So I will not take it any further. In addition, the Bill encourages not only migration, as mentioned by Senator Devitt, but also foreign investment. When we look about Australia we see what has been developed by overseas people as a result of their visits to this country and publications made available to them through the various tourist agencies overseas. 1 am sure that this Commission will not be hidebound by regulations, that it will be conducted by experienced people and that it will have adequate finance for its functions. This is one of the forward practical steps taken by this Government in new fields, lt shows the Government's positive thinking. 1 support the Bill, as I am sure every other Australian will. 1315 JUM Queensland 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator DITTMER - In the few minutes available to me I wish to make a few pertinent remarks about this legislation. At the outset, let me ask the Minister for Repatriation (Senator Mckellar), who is deputising for Senator Henty, to convey my congratulations to Senator Henty who showed the Senate the courtesy of making a second reading speech that extended over nineteen pages of foolscap. This occasion was unlike some other occasions on which he has spoken previously and also unlike other occasions on which many of his ministerial colleagues have introduced legislation- The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) - Order! The honourable senator is not addressing his remarks to the Bill. 1315 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator DITTMER - I am congratulating Senator Henty on his second reading speech, Mr President. Will you be tolerant to the extent of letting me finish the sentence? 1315 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I will listen to the honourable senator. 1315 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator DITTMER - Senator Henty and many of his ministerial colleagues have treated us extremely contemptuously in the submission of many other pieces of legislation. That is why I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Senator Henty on the consideration that he extended to honourable senators on this occasion. I believe that he is entitled to a full measure of praise, with all due deference lo you, Mr President. So rarely have we occasion to praise the Minister that I thought that on this occasion I should extend to him the meed of praise that he completely deserves. I, like everyone else, congratuate the Government on setting up an Australian Tourist Commission. The Minister told us that it will consist of seven members, five of whom will have full voting rights and two of whom will be appointed by the States and will not have voting rights. He gave us some information, for which we are grateful. From figures that have been collected. I understand that last year between $10Om and SI 50m was spent in Australia by about 145.000 overseas tourists, lt is estimated that by 1970 more than 300,000 tourists will come to Australia each year and that in 1975 the figure will be 607,000. We can visualise how much money will be spent if the estimates made by the two American firms engaged by the Australian National Travel Association - Harris, Kerr, Forster and Co. and Stanton Robbins and Co. Inc. - proved to be correct. Those two firms submitted a report which is known as the HKF report. One of them is engaged in the tourist booking business and the other in the travel arrangements business. They have made recommendations on what should happen in Australia. One of the members of the Commission, of necessity, will be a Commonwealth public servant, an officer of the Department of Trade and Industry. Two of the other members, in the present circumstances, are to come from the Australian National Travel Association. Two other members will be appointed with full voting rights. Another two people are to be appointed by the States, but without voting rights. I should like the Minister to explain why those people will be entitled to attend meetings, to give advice, to make suggestions and otherwise to act for the betterment of the Australian tourist industry, but will not be entitled to vote. Does he distrust them because, with only two being appointed, they can come from one or, at the most, two States and may be biased in favour of the State from which they come? lt is up to the Minister to tell us why these representatives of the States will not have voting rights. A commission of seven members is not unduly large, even if every member has voting rights. I would be interested to know why these two people will be precluded from voting. It is interesting to note that last year the Commonwealth Government provided $806,000 to the Australian National Travel Association in order to further its purposes. I understand that that contribution represents 70% of the Association's finances. In the Minister's second reading speech there is no suggestion of the amount that will be provided in the future. Being sensible people we realise that the Minister cannot specify the exact amount; but, in fairness, he could give us some idea of what is likely to be included in the Budget for the next financial year for this purpose. He has made no suggestion at all about that. He has merely said that the amount will be determined. That leaves the matter very indefinite. Will the amount be less than last year's amount? 1 think we are entitled to assume, in all reason, that it will be more. We have no idea at all how much more it will be. Again, what will be the grade of the people constituting this Commission? What will be the salary range of the Chairman? The Minister mentioned that the chairmanship might be a part time position or a full time position. Has not the Government made up its mind on this matter? Has it brought this legislation before the Parliament half baked? Has it not any concrete ideas on what should be the function and purpose of the Commission? It would appear that the Government has brought down this legislation and given itself time to determine what it intends the Commission to do. When the Parliament passes the legislation the Government will have a free hand. The Commission could be an effective organisation; it could be an ineffective organisation. The Government has not said what the Commission will do. The Minister talks about publicity overseas and says that the Commission will not be concerned with publicity inside Australia. 1 believe that the Minister, in introducing this legislation, should have been fairer with honourable senators and said, in simple and concrete terms, what the Government visualises in respect of the establishment of this Commission. He should have told us whether the Chairman would be full time or part time; what would be the purpose of the Commission; what would be the amount of its budget; and what would be provided for the various forms of advertising. Will this matter just go on willy nilly? After this legislation is passed, will it be twelve months or more before the Commission commences to function? Frankly, 1 believe that the Government has been a little unlucky. Had this Commission come in'o existence twelve months ago, it could have benefited from the activities of a little lass who has gone over to America. I think her name is Sandra Hilder. She had bigger Press and television interviews than any other person to arrive in America. Whether she was dressed or relatively undressed, the people were there in droves, watching admiringly and doing whatever people do when they sec attractive figures. Unfortunately, the Commission, not being in existence, was not able to take advantage of the visit of that girl to America. Similar occasions might arise in the future. From a tourist point of view, Australia is probably the worst placed continent. So this Commission will face a tremendous task. It is up to the Government to give every assistance to the Commission. When I say 'every assistance', I do not mean just the size of the annual budget of the Commission or the qualifications of the personnel appointed by the Government to constitute the Commission. Many other features will have to be attended to. We must realise that Australia is an isolated country. In the other great land masses there are some extraordinary features that have been accepted over the centuries as attractions to which people go almost automatically. More particularly do I refer to Europe. Each country in Europe has an attraction for the nationals of other European countries and for the people of North American countries who almost invariably visit Europe before they come to Australia. Even South Americans with money almost, unconsciously gravitate to Europe. The East has its fascination and incidentally, is not as far away from the Americas as Australia is. Better transport facilities are available to Eastern countries than are available to Australia. Australia has to compete with all these lands. What is to be the original approach of the Government to attract tourists to Australia? lt is easy to say that Australia has certain attractions to offer to tourists. Australia has 12,000 miles of coastline. But tourists could not possibly exist on most of our coastline. The average tourist would think of going to certain limited areas only of our coastline. There are long distances to travel and high fares to pay. In the past we have found that the Minister for Civil Aviation (Mr Swartz) has looked rather adversely on charter flights. But if the Government wants to bring more tourists to Australia, the Minister for Civil Aviation will need to adopt a much more tolerant view of charter flights. Cheaper fares will need to be provided. I am not talking now about publicity for what we term our attractive features. These are known to us and can be sold through the various media of advertising to overseas people. But the Government has to get these people to Australia within the limits of their purses. The tourist's travel does not finish when he arrives here. A tourist can go to England and spend almost the whole of his holiday there. Not far away, on the Continent of Europe he can see attractions that have existed for centuries. These attractions have a fascination for everyone and have been recorded in story and history. How many such attractions has Australia? Australia has its beaches. There is Sydney Harbour of which Sydney people boast. It is one of the most magnificent and picturesque in the world, lt is an attraction and accepted as such. 1317 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - Then there are Kings Cross and the Opera House. 1317 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator DITTMER - As Senator Ormonde said, there are Kings Cross and the Opera House. These are attractions. The Opera House might appeal to me when it is completed and we know what purpose it is to serve. As for Kings Cross, I would not be interested irrespective of how intensely interested Senator Ormonde may be. It would be, as I know everyone realises, most unlike me to boast of Queensland. But we have to face the facts. This is a simple issue. Queensland is easily the most attractive tourist State in the Commonwealth, considering its climate and its amenities and tourist attractions. But overseas tourists land at Sydney and the question of distance arises. Distance involves fares and fares involve money. Tourists, by and large have not unlimited finance for their holidays. So, the Government must face up to the problem of reducing fares as far as possible. Tourists do not necessarily require first class service. They require safety in transit. Everyone realises that. Many people seeking holidays do not look for first class transit, arrangements. As long as they have safe transit, they are satisfied. The Government must realise that almost invariably tourists on overseas planes land at Sydney. They can fill in their holiday time at Sydney but they will not be satisfied. Australia has a great deal to offer if facilities can be found to get people to the various attractive features. Senator Heatley dealt with the Gold Coast in some measure because of his parochial approach. The Gold Coast is quite attractive. Ite beaches are attractive and it has all the facilities that it should have. But Senator Benn, who knows Queensland better than anyone, will agree with me when I say that the Gold Coast has not been planned. Thousands of people go to the Gold Coast and it plays a big part in tourism in Australia. People go to the Gold Coast to bowl; but there are not enough bowling greens. Infants go to the Gold Coast to play, but there are not enough playing fields. The reason is that there has been a lack of planned development. The development was not unexpected but plans were not made for it. We cannot have this happening in the future in other parts of Queensland. The Great Barrier Reef has multitudinous islands. It is unique; unparalleled in the world. It is the greatest structure built in Australia by living creatures. But again there is the problem of the fares to be paid to get to the Great Barrier Reef. So, one of the problems that the Australian Tourist Commission will have to face up to is the matter of fares. I think that it will be the Commission's biggest problem. It is no use saying that accommodation is not suitable. I know that in some towns and capital cities a sufficient number of luxury rooms may nol be available. But a sufficient number of rooms of what one might term a reasonable first class standard are available. Any person would be quite happy to settle in one of those rooms for the night. 1 have heard some honourable senators today speak of the Aboriginal culture of Australia. But let us be realistic about this. How much Aboriginal culture is there in Australia? We know of Aboriginal bark and rock paintings. We know of Aboriginal corroborees. 1318 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator Devitt - Aboriginal water colours. 1318 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator DITTMER - Yes, we know of Aboriginal water colours. I thank the honourable senator for the suggestion but Aboriginal painting is limited to a comparatively small area of Australia. This culture is largely due to an Australian painter who fostered the talent among the Aboriginals. Perhaps this is justification for other painters to take an interest in this field. But how many tourists have the money or the time to visit the areas where Aboriginal art is displayed? We are just kidding ourselves in some small measure if we do not face up to the basic question of providing transport at reasonable costs. Mr President,the Minister is to be commended for what he did include in his second reading speech. But he is to be condemned for what he did not include in his speech. He did not give us any idea of what is to be provided in the next financial year to assist the Commission in the work that he outlined so extensively. The Minister did say that some of the work of the Com mission would be outside Australia. He spoke of advertising in overseas newspapers. I take it that he thought in terms of movies and television. These media are terrifically expensive overseas. We in Australia have no idea of the expense. We think that Australian television is expensive. But it is incomparably cheaper than television overseas. Consequently, the Commission will need a really large budget to be able to function in the way that the Minister outlined to us. However, it is a shame that he has not given us any idea of how much is likely to be provided. He has not even told us of the calibre of the personnel who will be appointed to the Commission. He has said that they will come from departments, but I remind him that there are many grades of officer in various departments. Further, could not the Minister have told us whether the Chairman will be appointed as a full-time or part-time officer? It is no use leaving this up in the air. If the Chairman's activities are to be associated with an undertaking which will bring in a real profit he should be appointed as a full-time officer. It has been estimated that by 1975 the annual return from tourism will be in excess of $200m in overseas currency. Surely the Government does not intend to be parsimonious in its approach to the budget of the Commission. Surely the Minister can tell us of the calibre or standard of the men who will compose the Commission. Is the Government trying to buy something on the cheap? In this legislation is il merely paying a token tribute to tourism, or is it a recognition that we in Australia, placed as we are in a difficult location, intend to accept a real responsibility to bring people here. I ask the Minister to tell us in his reply so that we will know that a real endeavour is to be made to further the tourist industry in Australia. Within Australia people engaged in the industry are doing a tremendous job. The Australian National Travel Association, which has existed since 1929, struggled on for many years, but in comparatively recent years it has had a not unsubstantial budget for internal tourism. But only a small amount has been spent externally. The Government has now accepted the responsibility externally for tourism. Let it give us the evidence that it intends to do so. 1319 KTL New South Wales CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - in reply - I am afraid that 1 am a little handicapped because 1 have not been following the debate. However, I shall endeavour to reply to points which have been raised by honourable senators. Senator Willesee asked about the amount of money likely to be spent on the Australian Tourist Commission. The Government is unable to forecast what amount of money will be spent. In reply to Senator Keeffe, no decision has been taken so far on what the establishment, of (he Commission will cost the Australian taxpayer, so 1 cannot answer his question. 1 think the second reading speech of the Bill made it plain that the Government accepts the need to equip the Commission with greater finance than the Australian National Travel Association has had in the past. As has been mentioned already, the Government's grants for 1966-67 for this purpose have totalled $862,000. But it is not possible in advance of the usual Budget considerations to say what precise amount may be allocated in the next year. This is common to most other matters on which the Budget has a bearing. Senator Dittmerraised a point about the grade of the personnel to be appointed to the Commission. The honourable senator stated correctly that there are to be seven members of the Commission, five of whom will be voting members and two of whom will be non-voting members. The five voting members will include two members nominated by the Australian National Travel Association, one from the Department of Trade and Industry - a public servant - and two from other sources. The Chairman will be appointed from the voting members. This will give the Government an opportunity to balance the Commission. All members will be selected on ability and personal qualities. 1319 JUM 0 0 DITTMER, Felix Senator Dittmer - I was referring to the grade or salary. 1319 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I am unable to answer that question, but if the honourable senator so desires I shall see that a reply is forwarded to him, if the information is available. Members of the Commission may include more than one public servant. The nomination of non-voting members is entirely a matter for the States. 1 thank the Senate for the interest it has taken in the measure and the speedy passage that has been given to the Bill. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee Clauses 1 to 3 - by leave - taken together and agreed to. Clause 4 (Definitions). 1319 KV9 Queensland 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - I recognise that the Minister for Repatriation (Senator McKellar) who closed the second reading debate is not the Minister who introduced the measure. I apologise to him for having to ask a few questions on some of these matters. But because I have not a clear understanding of them I feel that they should be raised. In clause 4 I notice that there is a definition of member', 'voting member', 'the Chairman', the Commission' and 'the General Manager'. However, there is no reference to the Minister. In my remarks on the second reading debate I raised this question and emphasised that I believe that on a task like this where we were setting up a new Commission which would have a vast job to do it was undesirable that there should be any intervention by a Minister between the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities and the Ministry. Honourable senators are aware that although the Bill was introduced by the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities (Mr Chipp), it will come under the administration of the Minister for Trade and Industry. There seems to me to be quite a conflict in this. That conflict increases because if the Minister for Trade and Industry is out of the country his ministerial responsibility moves to the Minister for Social Services. So he would be the man who, in the absence of the Minister for Trade and Industry, would be responsible for the action taken by the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities. I was so interested in this question that 1 made some inquiries. I was referred to the Acts Interpretation Act which in section 17 (i) stales: The Minister* shall mean the Minister for the lime being administering the Act or enactment in which or in respect of which the expression is used: Then I come to section 19 which states: Where in an Act any Minister is referred to, such reference shall unless the contrary intention appears be deemed to include any Minister or member of the Executive Council for the time being acting for or on behalf of such Minister. This is again dealt with in sections 19a., 19b. and 19c. But from none of those provisions do I get a very clear picture of what is meant by the Minister who will be responsible. I come back to the front page of the Bill where it is clearly shown that this matter is to be administered by the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities. I should like to know definitely whether the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities will be directly responsible to Cabinet or will have to act through the Minister for Trade and Industry. 1320 KTL New South Wales CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I think 1 can set the honourable senator's mind at rest by pointing out to him that there is no Minister for tourism. There is a Minister who assists the Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Mc.Ewen) in matters of tourism, which form part of the portfolio of the Minister for Trade and Industry. Therefore, as I understand it, if we did have a separate Minister for tourism this would be a comparatively simple matter. The Minister assisting the Minister for Trade and Industry in this respect is the Minister for the Navy (Mr Chipp). He is the Minister who would sign on behalf of the Minister for Trade and Industry. Clause agreed to. Clause 5 agreed to. Clause 6 - Constitution of the Commission. 1320 KV9 Queensland 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - I am afraid that I must again go back to a matter to which I referred in the second reading debate and to some of the things that were said by the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty) in his second reading speech. We are told who the three voting members are to be but we are not told anything about the other two. I predicated the thought that undoubtedly one of the three voting members would come from the Public Service. I suggested that two could come, with advantage, from the Australian National Travel Association. I even went to the stage of suggesting the name of the person who I felt could with advantage be Chairman. But I am still not happy when I look at this clause. The Minister said: It is also provided that at least one of the remaining three voting members of the Commission shall be an officer of the Public Service of the Commonwealth. As I said, I am satisfied with that. He went on: Officers of the Prime Minister's Department, the Australian News and Information Bureau of the Department of the Interior, and the Department of Trade and Industry have been members of the honorary board of the Australian National Travel Association in the past. I direct attention to the way in which the words are used and the way in which one thought follows another. The next thought is expressed in these words: It is proposed that an officer of the Department of Trade and Industry be appointed to the Commission. It could almost be gathered that the other members not specified would be members of the Public Service. I do not think that that would be advantageous from the point of view of the work of the Commission. lt would be, I think, too circumscribed. I do not say this in any criticism of members of the Public Service. I would not do that for one moment. I think that with members of the Public Service only, or with members of the Public Service in the overwhelming majority, the Commission would not have sufficient width of vision on this matter to satisfy adequately its requirements. The Minister also stated: The remaining members of the Commission, both voting and non-voting, will be appointed on a par i time basis, any officers of the Commonwealth Public Service being appointed ex officio. That opens up two questions. Sitting suspended from 6 to 8 p.m. 1320 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - It is unfortunate for me that the suspension of the sitting interrupted the argument I was developing with regard to clause 6. It is also unfortunate for me that urgent Cabinet matters kept the Minister away from the chamber during the discussion of that clause. I do not say this in denigration of his colleague who stepped into the breach very ably. But I must develop this point because I think it is a most important one. Both sides of the Committee have accepted this Bill very generously notwithstanding the fact that it is couched in vague generalisations rather than specific statements. During the second reading debate, 1. accepted this wholeheartedly, but I did express some reservations about the Commission itself which I felt might have been answered by the Minister when he replied to the second reading debate today. Because he did not answer them, my reservations have been somewhat accentuated. There is to be a Commission of seven, five of whom are to be voting members and two non-voting members. The Minister told us that one of those five voting members would be a member of the Public Service. He said that two others would be drawn from outside. I assumed - I hope correctly - that they would be drawn from the Australian National Travel Association. That leaves a certainty of one Public Servant. In another part of his speech, the Minister referred specifically to three departments which had been active in connection with ANTA. They were the Prime Minister's Department, the News and Information Bureau of the Department of the Interior and the Department of Trade and Industry. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent the Government from appointing two more members of the Public Service to this Commission as voting members. That would mean that there would be three members of the Public Service who could be voting members, and two voting members from the whole of the industry outside. If that is to be the case, 1 will be extremely dissatisfied with this Bill. I feel that the whole purpose of the Bill will be lost if the Commission is going to be dominated by senior officers of the Public Service who, although they may be extremely capable in their fields, do not know the tourist industry. Unless there is an adequate opportunity for the industry to express itself on this Commission I would be most hesitant to give it the enormous powers that it is being given. I would suggest that if there is some doubt about this, and if we are faced with the possibility of three of the five voting members being public servants, I have some reservations about the wisdom of the two members who are designated non-voting members retaining that qualification. My doubts would be resolved if two things happened: firstly, if I could be sure that the Commission would not be dominated by members of the public service from these or any other departments and that at least three members will come from outside the Service, I would be satisfied. Another way to resolve my doubts would be to make the two non-voting members voting members, so that the Commission still would not be dominated by public servants. This is clear cut. I repeat that the Committee has received this Bill much more tolerantly than it normally receives bills that are presented somewhat vaguely. I think there is reason for the vagueness. I think it is because this is a new organisation. 1 have said that I accepted that but I accepted it believing that the Commission would not be dominated by officers of the Commonwealth Public Service. Having said that during the second reading debate, 1 say it again. In another part of his second reading speech, the Minister said: The remaining members of the Commission, both voting and non-voting will be appointed on a part-time basis, any officers of the Commonwealth Public Service being appointed ex officio. Let us suppose it is dominated by officers of the Public Service. What does this phrase ex officio' mean? I looked it up in the Oxford English Dictionary. The meaning given was: 'In discharge of one's duties, in virtue of one's office'. That is quit; all right. The meaning given by Webster's Third International New Dictionary is: 'By virtue or because of an office or offices'. That, too, is all right. Then I referred to the Guide for Meetings of Organisations' issued by the Sydney Law Book Company of Australasia and written by N. E. Renton, in 1961. I noticed that in addition to the words that had been used in the Oxford Dictionary and Webster's Dictionary, these words are used: Names of ex officio members must never be included on ballot papers or in lists of nominated candidates for any election. I accept this because it comes from a very high authority. Let us assume, then, that these other members are going to be from the Public Service. What a mess we shall be in. I say that because, if this: authority is correct - and 1 believe it is - then three of the members will not be permitted to be nominated as deputy chairman. That means that the appointment of deputy chairman would become automatic. I am not trying to make trouble on this Bill because I am very keen to see it introduced but, having seen a good deal of the tourist industry throughout Australia, particularly in Queensland, I say again that I would be extremely unhappy to see the activities of the Australian National Travel Association dissolved into thin air and the work it has been doing carried on by a Commission with five voting members, the majority of whom are officers of the Public Service. I feel very strongly about this and repeat that I am not the only one who feels very strongly about it. 1 have nol only read the debates in another place but I have also listened to the debates in this chamber and 1 note that many members and senators have felt the same way as I have about this. 1322 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Why not move an amendment to put it beyond doubt? 1322 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - 1 do not want to move an amendment because I think that would be undesirable. I will be happy if the Minister can tell me that the thinking of the Minister-in-Charge of Tourist Activities is not that the Commission will be dominated by public servants. That will completely satisfy me. Senator WOOD(Queensland) [8.9) - I think that the point that Senator Morris has brought forward needs to be considered. Might t say that the question of selection of members of this Commission needs the most careful consideration and attention? Whilst I have nothing against public servants, I think that a very broad approach will have to be made lo this question of who shall be the members of the Commission when it is formed. Having been associated with the travel industry for over thirty years, and having initiated parts of the Great Barrier Reef industry, I have a clear working knowledge of the industry. Very often one finds people who are enthusiasts so far as the tourist industry <s concerned, but when it gets down to tin tacks they just do not know how to go about getting business for the industry. I think the Commission should be comprised of people who have some knowledge of the possibilities inherent in advertising and publicity. It needs people who know what methods to employ to encourage visitors to come to Australia by means of organised tours, package tours and so on. As Senator Morris would also know, the Commission needs members who can work amicably amongst themselves and in co-ordination with State tourist bureaux and the various travel agents who sponsor and organise package tours. Senator Morris'remarks are worth considering. Possibly the Minister has in mind that the majority of members of the Commission will not be public servants but will be people from a wider sphere of activity. However I suggest the Minister should consider the appointment of people who are actively engaged in the industry, who know the industry and who know how to go about encouraging tourists. Such people would bc a valuable addition to the Commission. I commend those thoughts to the Committee. 1322 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I have listened with great interest to the points raised by Senator Morris and Senator Wood. I refer them to the following extract from my second reading speech which appears on page 1161 of Hansard: This recognition will give the Australian National Travel Association the right to nominate a panel of persons from whom two of the voting members of the Commission shall be appointed. So there will be two members who are approved by ANTA. The speech continued: These men will be appointed for their knowledge and understanding of Australia's task in stimulating a greatly increased number of overseas visitors to Australia. They will be selected for their personal abilities and the energies which they will be able to bring to this task as members of the Commission. If two men of capacity are to be chosen from a panel nominated by the Australian National Travel Association. I should not think that it could be suggested for one moment that the Commission would be dominated by public servants. In fact I think the opposite will be the case. 1322 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - If the Minister gives me that assurance I am satisfied. 1322 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Yes. I also said in my second reading speech: lt is also provided that at least one of the remaining three voting members of the Commission shall be an officer of the Public Service of the Commonwealth. That is the point raised by the honourable senator - Officers of the Prime Minister's Department, the Australian News and Information Bureau of tHe Department of the Interior, and the Department of Trade and Industry have been members of the honorary board of the Australian National Travel Association in the past. The honourable senator can rest easy tonight without worrying that the Commission will be dominated by the Public Service. 1323 KV9 Queensland 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - I thank the Minister for his comments. I repeat what I said earlier: had the Minister been in the chamber to close the second reading debate he would have answered my question then and I would not have felt somewhat hot under the collar for the past hour or two worrying about this aspect. I thank him for his assurance. I am satisfied. Senator CAVANAGH(South Australia) I8.14J - I am concerned whether Senator Morris understands what the Minister has said. As far as I can understand, what the Minister has said now merely confirms the earlier fears that the Commission could be dominated by the Public Service. Clause 6 of the Bill in these terms: - (I.) The Commission shall consist of five voting members and two non-voting members. (2.) Each member shall be appointed by the Governor-General. (3.) Two of the voting members shall be persons appointed from among persons nominated, in accordance with sub-section (6.) of this section by a body or association that is approved by the Minister as being representative of the industries in Australia connected with tourism. The Minister indicated in the extract he read from the second reading speech how these two voting members would be appointed. Senator Morris knew that when he commenced to speak a few minutes ago and he was happy about it. Now he wants to know where the other three will come from. The Bill provides that one shall be appointed from the Public Service but the Minister has not told us where the other two will come from. That is the point raised by Senator Morris. 1323 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - The Minister gave me an assurance that the Commission will not be dominated by members of the Public Service. 1323 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - If the Minister said that and the honourable senator is satisfied, that is all right with me. 1323 KBL Queensland 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - Let me return to the constitution of the Commission. This afternoon I mentioned the possibility of a member of the House of Representatives and a senator being appointed to the Commission. I know there may be some differences of opinion on this but I believe that liaison between the Parliament and the Commission would be a very good thing. The members of Parliament need not be voting members of the Commission but I think it would be all to the good if the Parliament was so represented on the Commission. 1323 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Two non-voting members will come from the State Parliaments. 1323 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - I think there could be some from the Federal Parliament, whether they be voting members or nonvoting members. Such representatives of the Parliament would be conversant with what was going on in the Commission and would be able to keep the Parliament advised as to developments in the tourist industry. 1 submit those suggestions to the Minister to learn the Government's view. 1323 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - I have what purports to be a copy of the report submitted by the American investigators Harris, Kerr, Forster and Co. and Stanton Robbins and Co. Inc. who were asked by the Australian National Travel Association to report on the industry. Does this Bill arise out of that report? Why was not the document made public? It was put directly into the hands of the Australian National Travel Association. 1323 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator Wood - It was available to be purchased by the community. 1323 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN -(Senator Drake-Brockman).-Order! Is the honourable senator linking this up with the composition of the Commission? 1323 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Yes. 1323 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - I will be glad when he does. 1323 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Thank you, Mr Chairman. Has the Government, in drawing up this Bill, taken cognisance of the advice contained in the report? For example, has it taken into account the statement that there is a shortage of 6,000 hotel or motel rooms in Australia for the contemplated influx of tourists? Another point I notice is that a great deal of the report relates to real estate values and that it suggests the establishment- 1324 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! I cannot see where the honourable senator is linking this up with the composition of the Commission. 1324 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - This is a report on tourism in Australia which was asked for by the Association and I assume the Government- 1324 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - The Committee has agreed to take the Bill clause by clause. Later when we deal with the remainder of the Bill the honourable senator can raise the matter he is trying to place before the Committee. 1324 KOW Tasmania LP Minister forSupply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY -I shall reply to the matters which have been raised so far. The report to which Senator Ormonde referred was submitted to the Australian National Travel Association, the organisation which sought it. The report was not a matter for the Government but we did accept advice from the Association and I do not think there are better advisers in this field than members of the Association. Proof of the success of the Association's activities is evident. It has conducted a very successful operation. I do not react to Senator Wood's suggestion that members of Parliament should be on the Commission. I am not sure whether he meant that there should be a member from each House. 1324 KBL 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator Wood - Yes, one from each House. 1324 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - If it were decided that a Tasmanian parliamentarian should serve on the Commission, that might suit me but it would not suit Victorians and Queenslanders and so on. This is a States House. If the honour of serving on the Commission were to be shared among the States there would be difficulties because each senator is appointed to the Senate for a term of six years and there would be many changes in the representation on the Commission. Personally, the scheme does not appeal to me. Members of Parliament have a job to do and I do not think that serving on the Commission is in their field of operations. 1 have noticed that the Minister in Charge of Tourist Activities (Mr Chipp) agrees with me. As Senator Wood asked for my point of view I am happy to give it to him. 1324 KQQ South Australia 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT -I think there is a real objection to Senator Wood's suggestion.I draw the attention of the Committee to section 45 of the Constitution, which states: If a senator or member of the House of Representatives - (i.) . . . (ii.) . . . (iii.) Directly or indirectly takes or agrees to take any fee or honorarium for services rendered to the Commonwealth, or for services rendered in the Parliament to any person or State: his place shall thereupon become vacant. As it is contemplated that the members of the Commission are to be paid,I think it would be quite wrong for a parliamentarian to become a member of the Commission and take pay for it. If he did so, he would lose his seat in the Parliament. I also think it would be quite wrong for anyone to occupy a place on the Commission and not to take pay for it. 1324 KBL Queensland 0 0 WOOD, Ian Senator WOOD - In view of the situation described by Senator Laught, let me say that for some years 1 served on the Immigration Advisory Council, and whilst other members of the Council were paid for their services, as a senator I was not paid for my services on the Council. I want to make it clear that in this instance I am not concerned with the matter of payment. I am concerned with the question of whether a parliamentarian should have liaison with the Commission and should have an opportunity to use his knowledge to help the Commission in its dealings with the tourist industry. I repeat that as a senator serving on the Immigration Advisory Council I did not get paid for my services on the Council. Clause agreed to. Remainder of Bill - by leave - taken as a whole. 1324 KV9 Queensland 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator MORRIS - I wish to ask a question about clause 16 which relates to the purpose and powers of the Commission. Sub-clause (e) states in part: . . where the Commission is satisfied that no person whose principal place of business is in Australia undertakes, in that country outside Australia, the provision of assistance of the same kind; 1 know of quite a number of proprietors at tourist resorts who have incurred a great deal of expense in distributing advertising material outside Australia, and specifically in America. In Queensland we issued a travel manual for distribution throughout America dealing with many of the tourist areas in Australia - not only in Queensland but throughout Australia. The manual was for use by travel agents as a means of selling Australia. These private proprietors at tourist resorts have their principal place of business in Australia and they are undertaking outside Australia - in America - the provision of assistance to travel agents. Are they to be debarred because of this clause from continuing this work? I assume that they will not be debarred, but because the clause is somewhat ambiguous I have raised the matter hoping that 1 will receive a favourable answer from the Minister. Senator CAVANAGH(South Australia) 1 8. 24] - I wish to refer to clause 12, subclause (4.). We have dealt with the composition of the Commission. Sub-clause (4.) states: A voting member who is directly or indirectly interested in a contract made or proposed to be made by the Commission, otherwise than as a member, and in common with the other members, of an incorporated company consisting of not less than twenty-five persons, shall, as soon as possible after the relevant facts have come to his knowledge, disclose the nature of his interest at s meeting of the Commission. Sub-clause (5.) states: A disclosure under the last preceding sub-section shall be recorded in the minutes of the Commission and the member - shall not take part after the disclosure in any deliberation or decision of the Commission with respect to that contract; and shall bc disregarded for the purpose of constituting a quorum of the Commission for any such deliberation or decision. The Commission is to be set up to represent the tourist industry. It could well be that managers of companies engaged in the tourist industry will be considered for appointment to the Commission. If the manager of a company consisting of not less than twenty-five persons is appointed to the Commission and signs a contract for the Commission from which his company may gain pecuniary benefit, he should do certain things. He will still be a member of the Commission which must decide whether his company may participate in a contract from which it expects pecuniary benefit. It seems to me that all the manager needs to do is to make a disclosure of his position and then refrain from voting or from being counted as a member of a quorum. This position seems to be quite contrary to our system of appointments to committees which deal with certain industries or certain events. People wilh a particular interest or with a possibility of financial gain from contracts entered into by the Commission should not be members of the Commission. 1. do not think it is sufficient for such a member simply to refrain from voting. He may be the manager of a big company. One can imagine a representative of the Ansett organisation serving on the Commission and influencing decisions in respect of the spending of money which may from time to time benefit his own organisation. I think this point needs consideration and I am anxious to hear the Minister's explanation. 1325 JTT South Australia 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - I would like to pursue the point raised by Senator Morris and to take it a little further. Clause 16 states that the Commission has power to do certain things. Subclause (2.) states, in part: to undertake, in a country outside Austra ia, the provision, with or without charge, of assistance to travel agents, transport operators and other appropriate bodies or persons in arranging travel, accommodation or other services or facilities for people visiting Australia, where the Commission is satisfied that no person whose principal place of business is in Australia undertakes, in that country outside Australia, the provision of assistance of the same kind; I hope that this provision docs not cut across the development of enterprising organisations which set up their agencies in countries outside Australia to induce travel to this country. Will this provision affect the offices that may be established within their complex enterprises which may be engaged in inviting tourists to Australia? Will the Minister tell me at what point the Commission will be, in the words of the Bill, satisfied that a person is providing the kind of services which effectively assist travellers? Is provision made in the Bill for these agencies to lodge an appeal or application if they feel that their services are effective and should not be usurped by the Commission? Will the Minister to whom the Commission is responsible have any flexibility in this matter? Will he have any discretionary powers? 1326 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Senator Morris and, I think, Senator Davidson raised a point concerning the Commission operating outside Australia. The Bill makes it quite plain that the Commission cannot operate outside Australia if Australian private enterprise is operating a tourist activity in the same area. 1326 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - The Bill uses the words in that country'. That is what troubles me. If it stated 'in that area' I would not mind. 1326 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - If the Commission were satisfied that a service was being given somewhere in a certain country it would not be precluded from entering an area of that country in which service was not being given. I take it that it would be for the Commission to decide whether to do that or not. 1326 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator Davidson - What would be the situation in reverse? Could a private enterprise agency apply to go into an area which was already being served by the Commission? 1326 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Yes. If private enterprise wished to go into an area and if it could provide a service, it could go into the area and the Commission would have to withdraw from it. Senator Cavanagh raised a point concerning clause 12(4). These are standard provisions in relation to statutory corporations. As a matter of fact, they stem from the Constitution itself. I refer to Part IV of the Constitution relating to both Houses of Parliament. Section 44 (v) refers to any person who: Has any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any agreement with the Public Service of the Commonwealth otherwise than as a member and in common wilh the other members of an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty-five persons. The position is that anyone who is a member of a corporation consisting of fewer than twenty-five persons is not allowed to operate in this field. But if he is a member of a corporation consisting of more than twenty-five members, then he is performing only a minor part in that company. If this principle were carried to the fullest extent, it would affect a person who was a minor shareholder in a large retail store which could benefit from the tourist industry. The provision in clause 12 (4.) is the normal provision in relation to this type of Commission. I think it covers the position quite well. 1326 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Earlier I was referring to the American firm of Harris, Kerr, Forster and Co. Apparently it advised the Government that it should not compete with private enterprise, particularly in relation to advertising, as the Government might be doing in the United States of America. That is where it has to advertise Australian tourism. lt also has to advertise it in other countries. I cannot understand why the Minister took care to point out that the Government does not propose to compete with private enterprise in this field in the countries of origin of the tourists. Obviously this recommendation has been made to the. Government through the Australian National Travel Association. The Government is accepting that part of the advice which is contained in the Association's report, at any rate. If tourism is the big industry which it is claimed it is - and I suggest that it is one of the biggest industries in this country - then I think that the Government or the tourist organisation has a right to advertise. It is of great importance that the Government should advertise through Government agencies in America concerning tourism in the same way as it does for other industries. The Government advertises our butter in England. It does not worry about competing with private enterprise there, lt advertises other goods that it sells in the United States of America and it does not worry about competing with private enterprise there. I agree with what Senator Morris said. He expressed a doubt as to whether the Government is appointing the right type of people to this Commission. I know that the Minister cleared this point up for him. But Senator Morris had in mind the appointment to the Commission of public relations advertising people who understand how to push a trade. Senator Morris feared that public servants do not have that sort of experience. I would assume that this is what he was suggesting, lt might give Senator Morris a little comfort to know that the Government has an advertising setup in its own departments. It has highly skilled men. Tourism is important to this country and it has to be sold in America, England, Ireland, Europe and in other countries, not in Australia. We have to spend money on publicity overseas. Qantas Empire Airways Ltd already spends a lot of money on advertising overseas. The British Overseas Airways Corporation also spends money. These companies are advertising overseas for us. They are engaged in the trade of bringing people lo Australia. The shipping companies are in the same category. I believe that the Government should at least try to co-ordinate those activities. I believe that it should try to ascertain how much money is being spent by some of these extra-governmental organisations such as Qantas. Trans-Australia Airlines also could be involved. The Government should sec what these companies are spending overseas in order to bring tourists to Australia. They are competing with private enterprise overseas. They must be. These companies take tourists from Australia and they advertise in order to get people to come to Australia because otherwise they would be returning without passengers. I believe that the Government ought to have a publicity agency of its own, particularly at San Francisco on the west coast of America where people arc interested in coming to Australia. That is all I have to say on the publicity side of this proposal. I clare say that the Commission will carry out this task, but I ask the Minister whether the Commission will do anything about examining matters which cause annoyance to tourists coming to Australia. I recently relumed by ship from the United States. When the ship was six or seven hours outside Sydney Heads the bar and all the other shops were closed and they remained closed while the ship was in Sydney, lt meant that these people were virtually prisoners, so far as shopping was concerned. They were not very happy tourists. That is one complaint which I thought was common amongst American people in particular. Senator Wood referred to koalas and I think that Senator Mulvilhill referred to kangaroos and platypuses. People are interested in seeing the real outback life. They want to see sheep stations, for example. 1327 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator Marriott - And the dude ranch at Kings Cross. 1327 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - No, they are not interested in that. They want to see the working of a real sheep station on the far side of the mountains from the coast. A visit to a sheep station could easily bs arranged for American tourists when they come to this country. I suppose that at all seasons of the year it would be possible lo arrange for overseas visitors, as a special tourist feature, to see a shearing shed in operation. Visiting Americans do not want to be taken to a place conducted like a dude ranch where they will see only dummies and nol the real thing. They do not want that sort of synthetic situation. They want to see the working of an authentic sheep station. 1327 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - The National Sheep Dog Trials are conducted in Canberra. 1327 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Yes. Something like that would be the real thing. American visitors to this country are not interested just in going to Kings Cross. Sailors may be interested in going there, but tourists are not. If the Government's publicity experts could work out schemes designed to make it possible for overseas visitors to see the work on sheep stations and to see other features of the outback, overseas tourists would be greatly interested. Americans particularly talk about the Australian outback. However, they would not really have to go far to see something of country life. Sheep are shorn within 100 miles of Sydney and within that distance of Sydney overseas visitors could be taken to typical sheep stations where they could see sheep dogs working and witness all the other typical activities. That is the sort of thing that Americans talk about seeing when they are on board ship travelling to Australia. Another point that I want lo make is that there is too much concentration on air travel and too little thought given to shipping as it applies to the tourist trade. After all, the bulk of the Americans who go on tour are the not so wealthy ones. The principal object of many in leaving the United States of America is to escape high taxes. Travel is one way of getting rid of their surplus funds so that they will not be affected by a means test. Most of these travelling Americans are superannuated workers who measure out their spending very closely When 1 travelled with Americans in that category on board ship I found that they talked mostly about what they would see in the outback in Australia. There are many small annoyances on the waterfront which are encountered by tourists and which ought to be removed. I have mentioned the fact that shops, bars and tea rooms are closed the whole time a ship is in port. When a vessel ties up at Woolloomooloo it may be impossible for the passengers to get even a cup of tea, much less to obtain any other refreshment, at the vessel's own shop, because it is locked. Where can one get a cup of tea at Woolloomooloo? It is impossible to get one anywhere there. So tourists have to travel into the city. This should not be. In American ports that I visited one could get service at refreshment rooms very close to the waterfront. Little things like this make all the difference between a successful tour and an unsuccessful one. Americans who travel to Australia by ship spend three weeks at sea on the round trip. Most of these tourists of whom I speak make the round trip. Apart from a shipping service to bring migrants to Australia, we need an organised, independent Australian shipping line that will cater for tourists at medium fares. The report by the two American companies that I have mentioned places heavy emphasis on the desirability of attracting people to Australia in the off season. One almost feels that it might have used the phrase 'off tourist season'. It points out that tourists should be encouraged to come to Australia in the seasons when fares and freights are lowest. We have heard of such things as between seasons travel. 1 am happy to note from the remarks of the Leader of the Government (Senator Henty) that heed has been given to this report. It is based on the sound advice of people who, I believe, know what they are talking about. My only objection is that those who prepared it seemed to have an absolute mania about not interfering with private enterprise. It advanced all sorts of propositions designed to assist private enterprise. I believe that it is the Government's policy to do this. If country areas near the cities are to be opened up for tourists, much money will have to be spent on the development of facilities. We have to spend money on facilities if we are to attract tourists. I believe that the Government should spend money on publicity and promotional campaigns especially in the United States, Great Britain and European countries, lt ought to have officers of its own tourist organisation stationed in those countries. The Government may intend to undertake this work through the agency of the trade officials of the Department of Trade and Industry but it should not let the matter rest there. It should appoint to the offices of the Department in other countries specialists who are trained in the field of tourism and who will give it their special attention. Tourism, to be successful, requires a sort of salesmanship different from that needed in selling woollen goods, wheat, butter or other commodities. The tourist trade is a different kind of trade altogether. I agree with both Senator Morris and Senator Wood who emphasised that tourist promotion is specialist work. 1328 KQQ South Australia 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - Mr Chairman, I wish to direct the attention of the Committee to clause 15 and especially clause 16. I ask whether the powers of the proposed Australian Tourist Commission are wide enough to give effect to its purposes. Clause 15 states that the Commission is to be established for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia, and travel in Australia, by people from other countries. The powers of the Commission, as set out in clause 1 6, appear to be mainly to engage in publicity campaigns overseas; to induce and assist travel agents, transport operators and other appropriate bodies or persons to encourage people in other countries to visit Australia; to produce magazines and pamphlets; to collect information; and generally to undertake, in countries outside Australia, the provision of assistance to travel agents and the like in arranging facilities for people visiting Australia. I believe that there is no provision empowering the Commission to inspect tourist facilities or to suggest the improvement of facilities where they are not up to standard. This is rather contrary to the usual procedures of the Department of Trade and Industry, which is to administer the Commission. As you, Sir, know that Department is at present undertaking a close investigation of containerisation in transport. Another of its functions is to inspect products produced in Australia and exported, ft also lists and classifies manufactures, and labelling and packaging methods and procedures. The Department, in addition to promoting the sale of our exports overseas, classifies the means by which they are produced and labelled. Senator Dittmer referred to the need for safe travel and said that tourists want to know that they are safe when travelling about Australia. With this in mind, 1 wonder whether the powers of the Commission, as set out in clause 1 6, will be wide enough to give it a few teeth, as it were. Instead of merely producing and circulating glossy pamphlets and advertising our tourist attractions overseas, it should be able to ensure that the Australian tourist facilities that it advertises overseas are up to standard. In particular, I want to mention health considerations at our tourist resorts, about which I asked a question yesterday. Throughout this debate emphasis has been placed on the attracting of tourists from the United States of America. I do not propose to argue about the nature of Americans, but I point out that they place great emphasis on health matters. Indeed, they are quite fastidious about health considerations at tourist resorts. I am deeply concerned at the apparent complete lack of liaison between government and municipal authorities, trade promoters, tourist organisations and operators of tourist resorts on the question of health. I am informed by a very reliable authority in South Australia that from November 1966 to the present time there has been a severe epidemic of gastro-enteritis at Hayman Island. I understand that hundreds of cases of this disease have occurred there since last November. The point that concerns me is that a constituent of mine heard through private channels that there was trouble of this sort on the Island, but was told by the agents that what he had heard was not so. However, when he arrived on the Island the staff immediately gave him pills and told him to take them to prevent diarrhoea. He quickly became ill and needed intravenous therapy. He was flown out to a Queensland hospital. I understand that he was away from his business tor several months. The point that I make is that nothing seems to be set out in any of the clauses of this Bill to ensure that the Commission will lay down that the resorts that are advertised overseas must be attractive when people arrive after answering advertisements and being prompted by advertisements to go to them. I believe that this is a. big weakness in the Bill. In every other respect it seems to be a wise and effective one. There seems to be no provision in clause 16, which sets out the powers of the Commission, for it to liaise with the State authoriies the municipal authorities and the promotors of tourist resorts on very important questions. The most important question I can think of is the health safety one. I should like the Minister to lel: me know whether it is contemplated that the Commission will have this tremendously important power. After all, no advertisement is satisfactory if the goods that it advertises are not as advertised. Many honourable senators have spoken about the shortcomings of tourist facilities. Unless some control is exercised by this Commonwealth Commission, I cannot see how the advertising will be as effective as we all hope it will be. I should like to know whether anything is in contemplation in relation to the control, especially in health matters, of the facilities to which reference has been made and to which we hope many thousands of overseas people will be attracted. 1329 K8Y TASMANIA IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - I refer to the part of clause 15 that states: Thu Commission is established for the purpose of the encouragement of visits to Australia. . . . and to clause 16 (2.) (b), under which the Commission is to induce and assist transport operators. 1329 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - What does 'induce' mean? 1329 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - I will tell the honourable senator. The point that I wish to raise is that we will not get people tn come to Australia unless they can obtain cheaper travel. The Government owns an airline which, as a member of the International Air Transport Association, assists in preventing cheap travel. The result is that Pacific fares are the highest in the world and that no charter aircraft can land in Australia. If people want to charter an aircraft from England, they have to go to New Zealand. Very rarely do tourists come to Australia on charter flights. There have to be exceptional circumstances before they can do so. I suggest that Australia should do what is done in other countries, namely provide cheap charter flights. Americans can go from New York to Switzerland for a fortnight's skiing on a package tour that costs them $200 return; that is all. If we had something like that we would get tourists. All the publicity in the world will not get tourists to Australia because it is such a long way away from most places. We are at the end of the line. Unless we provide cheap fares people will never dream of coming here, because there arc so many other places to see and they can go to see them on cheap charter flights. The second point that I raise is this: what do people come here to see? The sheep stations and life in the outback certainly attract people. Another attraction is the Great Barrier Reef. All honourable senators who have seen the Reef and been out on it must realise the stupendous effect that it has on people when suddenly the tide goes out and the Reef appears forty to eighty miles off the coast. One can walk on it for four to eight hours, and then one has to leave because it is covered again. It costs money to travel within Australia. It is of no use bringing tourists to Australia if, by the time they arrive, they have no money left to enable them to sec (he tourist attractions of Australia. So I believe that the Bill does not go far enough in that, although it assists people outside Australia, it does not assist them sufficiently inside Australia. There is only one other attraction in Australia that people cannot see elsewhere. Beautiful coastline can be seen anywhere in the world. That one other attraction is central Australia, lt would appeal to overseas people. In addition, there is Papua and New Guinea. I do not know whether the Bill covers our Territories. 1 assume that it does. Here is an untapped field of tourism. It would help the people of Papua and New Guinea if it were possible to increase tourism there. A considerable sum of money would have to be spent in preparing the field there. The hotels in the Territory are very badly run and very expensive by Australian standards. 1330 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator Poyser - The internal air fares are shocking. 1330 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - Yes. The whole problem is one of finance. If Papua and New Guinea is included in the Bill, the Commission should look to it because tourism is one of the few sources of revenue available to the Territory, lt certainly represents a tourist attraction that we do not have in Australia. So, if we want to do something to help the people of the Territory, here is one field in which we can help. When we get people to come to Australia and they see the Great Barrier Reef, the sheep stations, central Australia and, I. hope, Papua and New Guinea, what else is there for them to see? The trouble is that we have people who, although they talk about tourism, talk about it from a tourist point of view instead of from the point of view of true tourism. 1 find it a little difficult to explain what I mean. Let me refer to Tasmania. We are told that Tasmania is a tourist attraction, lt is a tourist attraction because it is easy to get to it and because one can see the whole place in a week. For years I have been trying to get the Tasmanian Government to build a cable car from the bottom lo the top of Mount Wellington. That would be a tourist attraction. It would induce people to come to Tasmania. I want the Government to build a hotel on the top of Mount Wellington. I also have another project, namely, the building of a casino in Tasmania. Of course, when 1 start talking about a casino, people raise their hands in horror because it means gambling. Noone objects to the Totalisator Agency Board. Evidently that is not gambling. Noone objects to Tattersalls and the Opera House lotteries. Evidently they are not gambling. A casino is a very dreary pi.ice to go to, but it attracts rich Americans. The only trouble about building a casino in Tasmania would be that once it was built other States would build casinos and Tasmania would be left out in the cold again. I repeat that the only answer for the Australian tourist industry is cheap fares and we will not have cheap fares as long as Qantas Empire Airways Ltd is a member of an organisation which insists that there be no charter flights and that there be high fares for flights across the Pacific Ocean. 1331 K28 Queensland LP Minister for Housing 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN [8.58] - I wish to reply to a few of the comments that have been made. Senator Ormonde asked whether the Commission would do anything about publicity. It can undertake any publicity at all concerned with overseas tourists. Publicity is one of its functions. He also asked whether the Commission could make any actual bookings. It cannot make actual bookings outside Australia if there is in the area concerned an Australian private enterprise company that can make the bookings. 1331 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - That would include an Australian advertising agent, would it? 1331 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I am talking about bookings, not publicity. The Commission can undertake publicity, but it cannot make actual bookings outside Australia if there is in the area concerned an Australian private enterprise company that can make the bookings. Senator Ormonde made an inquiry about the operations of the Commission. The Commission has yet to be established, but, within the limits of the Bill, the Commission itself will decide how it will operate and what work it will carry out. Senator Laughtspoke about health matters, inspections of premises and health controls and the problems associated with visitors going to an area where a health problem existed. The honourable senator asked whether the Commission would have any power of inspection or control in these matters. My answer to his query is that the Commission will be a promotional body, lt will not be a controller of health. It will have no powers of inspection or control regarding health. The administration of health, in the sense that Senator Laught had in mind, is a local government matter. Senator Turnbull made a very interesting comment on cheap chartered Rights. This suggestion is, I think, worthy of examination although I imagine that a variety of problems could be found concerning it. I will be pleased to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Civil Aviation (Mr Swartz). Senator Turnbullalso referred to Papua and New Guinea and asked what authority the Commission would have to promote tourism in the Territory. I inform the Senate that Papua and New Guinea has its own Tourist Board. The Australian Tourist Commission could engage in joint tourist promotions with the Tourist Board in Papua and New Guinea. 1331 KBW Tasmania 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I have abstained from speaking in the debate on the Australian Tourist Commission Bill because I was so impressed by the overwhelming support that the Bill received from all sides. But I wish to ask the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) to take into consideration clause 12 of the Bill in special relationship to the function of the Commission with which we are dealing. Before actually making reference to that point, may I say that the prime purpose for which 1 rose was to emphasise that the two persons to whom I think this country is most indebted for this Bill are, firstly, Senator Wood and, secondly, ex-Senator Nancy Buttfield, who laboured for years in this cause while she was a senator. I feel that everybody should acknowledge that this Bill is a belated product of their endeavours. 1331 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - This sounds like a mutual admiration society. 1331 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I do not know whether it would be mutual. It would become the honourable senator to bestow a little admiration other than towards his own looking glass. Clause 12 incorporates the stock disqualification formula that was forged in debates in this chamber about ten years ago for legislation establishing bodies of this sort. The Australian public has been the victim of so much fraud in large commercial companies or commissions in the past ten years that safeguards are essential and it is one of the provinces of this Parliament to see that they are provided. We have had an instance in Sydney in the last 12 months which shows how imperative it is in the interests of business integrity that people sitting on boards of directors should disclose their interests. The position is made acute with regard to the Australian Tourist Commission by clause 6 (3.) which provides: Two of the voting members shall be persons appointed from among persons nominated . . . by a body or association that is approved by the Minister as being representative- Of what? of the industries in Australia connected with tourism. Two voting members shall be appointed from the industries associated with tourism. These are commercial interests. Clause 12 (4.) sets out the ordinary formula regarding members of commissions by stating: voting member who is directly or indirectly interested in a contract made or proposed to be made by the Commission otherwise than as a member, and in common with the other members, of an incorporated company consisting of not less than twenty-five persons, shall, as soon as possible after the relevant facts have come to his knowledge, disclose the nature of his interest at a meeting of the Commission. The first thing that 1 want to emphasise is that the obligation of disclosure is imposed upon a person who is directly or indirectly interested in a contract. The business of this Commission is not to make contracts only. If honourable senators look at clause 16 which sets out the powers of the Commission they will see that the making of contracts is a rather small and subsidiary part of its functions. The expenditure of money on publicity advertising directed to particular purposes and the attraction of a flow of tourists are the main functions of the Commission. A member of the Commission who comes from an industry connected with tourism in Australia may, although not directly or indirectly interested in any contract, be interested in the general product of the business of the Commission and may use his position to slant publicity. Let us assume that Senator Turnbull were to be appointed as manager of a casino. As a member of the Commission he could promote business for casinos. He would not necessarily be involved in any contract with the Commission but he could help the flow of tourists, from which the casino business could acquire profit. I use that illustration because I think, in relation to this particular type of commission, words more general than those that have been used might properly be introduced so as to prevent a conflict between duty and interest. Unless this is expressly safeguarded the temptation to yield to interest before duty exists. It is laxity in legislation that, allows company directors and members of commissions to be put in the ambiguous position that leads to the deception of people whom it is their duty to protect and on whose behalf they are required to make a disinterested expenditure of public funds. Remainder of Bill agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. 1332 Bill (on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) read a third time. 1332 bill 1332 Debate resumed from 4 May (vide page 1 147), on motion by Senator Anderson: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1332 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - The Opposition supports the Bill in the broad sense. It is fully aware of the problems which confront societies in the 1960s because of the alarming increase in the use of certain drugs. Drug addiction has occurred mainly in western societies where there is a reasonably high standard of living. One pleasing feature of the Bill, which is a by-product of the work of the United Nations, is that it represents the adoption of a single convention resulting from a number of years of difficult negotiation. Undoubtedly what prompted the Government to bring in the Bill was the serious problem which confronts the teenagers of today in the alarming increase in the consumption of pep pills and various other drugs which, when used to excess, cause physical and moral degradation. It is interesting to see from a study of the general social changes in Australia that we follow the pattern set in the larger American cities. In my opening remarks I want to refer to some of the experiences that have occurred in the United States. It has been found that the larger cities, such as New York, Los Angeles and Chicago, have the most difficult problems. It is interesting to see also the types of teenagers and others who become addicted to drugs defined in an American publication Newsday' by reporter Martin Schram. He refers to drug addiction as: a malady of the deprived and moneyless; it has become a middle and upper middle class affliction, as well. Suburban youth - the high schooler, the collegian, the dropout, the pushout - these have all grown upon the fringes of bigcity junkie empires. Stripped of all these terminologies the use of drugs can probably be attributed to our education systems of today and to the extreme competition which is manifested in relation to success in examinations. Probably for the boy or girl who is on the fringe between passing or failing an examination there is some incentive to use drugs as it may help them to get over a scholastic hump. But often they pay a high price physically and mentally through taking drugs. In some cases the result may be only a minor physical or mental breakdown, but other cases are much more serious. Statistics are published by various countries to show the number of people taking drugs. There is a tendency in the United States of America, Canada and some of the larger European cities to inflate these statistics and to present the situation as being more serious than it really is. However, it would be wrong to ignore these statistics. The figures published in the United States reveal that although the number of teenagers taking pills and other drugs is not very high as a proportion, it is enough to cause worry to any thinking person in the community. But there is another aspect of the situation. People other than teenagers are involved. Some shift workers or long distance hauliers al times rely on stimulants to enable them to last out a shift. I know that the Transport Workers Union of Australia has been very critical of those who take drugs, but a driver may have paid a high price for his truck and may feel that he has to keep going on interstate schedules to be able to afford the vehicle. In these cases it is sometimes necessary to resort to beanies and other stimulants. Obviously there needs to be a much tighter control on the sale of these preparations. The Opposition, while supporting in broad principle the Bill now before us, is not unaware that with drugs, as with anything else, an atmosphere of hysteria may be created. It seems to me that there is an added responsibility on the Government to ensure that in enforcing the punitive provisions of the legislation the subject is approached with realism and that the onus of proof provision will apply. I propose to refer in the later stages of my address to one or two specific incidents, but I repeat now that we are fully appreciative of the situation with regard to drugs in the modern society. In our major cities there are all sorts of incidents which show a growing prevalence of this offence. Not so long ago in a special Federal court it was revealed that iwo men who had entered Australia by yachts had used their vessels in an endeavour to make a quick quid by bringing in drugs. One man was smuggling opium and the other LSD. There is a tendency at present when one hears about the smuggling of opium or some other popular form of drug to regard it as an isolated case, but when we examine the experience of the United States we see that the matter becomes much more important. Figures from the San Francisco State College revealed that in one standard term in a student body of 15,000 more than 300 students had indulged in LSD or other forms of drugs. It would be wrong to say that every one of the 300 went completely round the bend - that was not the case - but obviously the danger is there. In addition to what has been foreshadowed by the Government in this legislation I believe that it is essential that we have educational programmes to inform people of the situation. We find today on the television networks that public relations plays a big part in the sale of various commodities. With many items that are advertised what is referred to as the soft sell is used. 1 believe that complementary to this legislation the Government should contemplate some form of public relations directed at people of school age and those who have left school, lt should be pointed out to them in the modern vernacular that there is not much of a prospect for people to attempt to get a short term advantage from the use of drugs. I do not think we should take a negative attitude on this subject, but neither do I believe that we should hammer the point. Young people must be encouraged to take a different attitude to drugs. On television we are told of the reasons for smoking the Kool cigarette, the clean cigarette, and there is advertising jargon associated with all sorts of products. Public relations is big business today. I believe that the Government should call some of the advertising agencies together and tell them that if we are to achieve a higher physical and moral standard in Australia they will have to contribute something to society. This would be a simple matter if we could adopt the arguments used against those who take alcohol in excess, lt could be said that someone who feels depressed should be able to take a stimulant, but the tragedy is that many people who are on the verge of an academic career and who are lacking emotional stability get into the situation where they feel that they need stimulants, lt could even be argued by some that there is a similar problem in relation to book censorship, which is also under the administration of the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson). Many people have the idea that if one can get a kick out of something it is 'mod' to try it. But where do we go from there? Although the Opposition supports the Bill in broad principle it does not accept that it provides the whole answer to the problem. We believe that there has to be a complementary education programme to inform people who have problems thai drugs are not the answer. The Opposition believes that the soft sell is the way to do this and is essential if we are to reduce the incidence of drug taking. I notice that the Government is rightly concerned with modern forms of transportation. With the increase in air travel, it is necessary to be extremely vigilant. In the United States recently a consignment of locally manufactured amphetamine - sometimes called beanies - was being exported on a ship leaving New York City. Below the first few layers of the drug was cotton waste. The bulk of the consignment had been hijacked and diverted into large American cities. At the moment, this particular problem in the Commonwealth is limited to a few large cities - Sydney and Melbourne and possibly Brisbane. If it spreads inland, naturally the job of protection will be made more difficult. In relation to detection I should like to raise a matter to which the Minister might reply later on. In the United States of America the Treasury Department operates the Bureau of Narcotics which in a broad sense combats this problem of addiction among high school students. A new group known as the United States Bureau of Drug Abuse Control has been formed, which deals not with opium and other such drugs but with new varieties that are a threat to teenagers principally. I arn concerned particularly about one aspect. If we find pedlars operating inland, where will the operations of the Department of Customs and Excise end and where will the Commonwealth Police take over? Be that as it may and with all due respect to the various State police forces, the Department of Customs and Excise unquestionably has an intimate knowledge of this situation and it may be advisable to consider whether or not an additional division should bc established, such as we have seen in the immigration field. Nobody would question the efficiency in many fields of the Commonwealth Police Force but it has still been found necessary to establish a special force to deal with alien registration anomalies or offences, and something similar may have to be considered in relation to drug control. I know that this matter is worrying numerous groups in the community. In the United States of America this vice - that is what it is - of drug addiction is increasing, and sometimes one can learn from the mistakes of other groups. Unquestionably, this is a challenge to the community. In big cities wc see a big influx of strangers and there are always people moving around peddling drugs. Then there is a different group altogether. Amongst middle-aged people we find some who are constantly in pain and it is a small step from taking the drugs that are provided under the normal prescriptions of doctors to taking increased quantities. .1 should imagine that ir would he absolutely stupid to be too rigid in these matters. We sec the tragedy of combating pain in people who are suffering the last stages of cancer. It is obvious that the medical profession takes a much broader approach to the cushioning of pain than it used to do. There is a more flexible approach to the use of drugs for this purpose than there was ten or twenty years ago. That is one of: the difficulties involved in the administration of legislation of this kind. We have to consider how much control should be exercised without being too loose in supervision. There may be cases of people in desperation who look for relief and find that it is claimed by some members of the medical profession that their hands are tied. In general terms the Opposition is not unaware of the problems. We believe that unquestionably some unscrupulous people are trafficking in drugs. A number of rings have been broken up recently and we are quite happy about that. But there are dangers. We have a cosmopolitan population and there may be miscarriages of justice. My mind goes back seven or eight years when I, together with other people, was seeing off a foreign ship leaving Australia. There was an extremely cosmopolitan group of people farewelling relatives. 1 had a friend who was from European country A and there were people from European country B. As 1 came down the gangplank 1 turned round and 1 noticed that my friend had disappeared. I made some inquiries and found that he was being interrogated by customs officials. 1 do not blame them for their vigilance. What happened was that half a dozen fellows from the foreign group B had some very minor racket - 1 am not condoning it - in relation to cigarettes from the ship's canteen. I asked what my friend was doing there. He had nol been long in Australia and he spoke two or three European languages. The officials said: 'We heard him speak in language B and of course we took him in with the other six.' 1 want to say in fairness that justice was done. There was no prosecution. I was able to satisfy the officials that the fact that he was able to pass the time of day in one foreign tongue did not mean that he was an accessory to the crime. 1 throw in that particular instance because in the light of the penalties prescribed we have to be careful. In that connection the Minister might indicate from the point of view not merely of avoiding miscarriages of justice but also of detection, how many officers of the Department of Customs and Excise have a knowledge of some foreign tongue. We have already raised this matter in relation to the Department of External Affairs and other issues. I am sure that a knowledge of foreign tongues would be invaluable in regard to detection and 1 make that point in relation to future operations of the Department. Has that matter been taken into consideration? The Opposition is not unaware of the situation. We have reached a certain stage in the manufacture of drugs in this country and a close check must be made, lt is probably not a matter of a firm itself being involved, but it is possible that some unscrupulous person in it might divert an amount of a drug that is produced into illegal channels, and this is a very difficult situation. In broad principle we support the Bill. We are not unaware of the fact that even what is proposed will not mean a solution of the problem. The US is dealing with this problem, which is increasing all the time, and probably we can learn from its experience. In relation to penalties we should like an assurance in broad terms, that the principle That the onus of proof is on the Crown will not be jettisoned. At least we hope that we will be able to keep this unquestionable evil of the 1960s within bounds and we want to ensure that people who exploit other human beings by trafficking in drugs will be adequately dealt with. At the same time we must ensure that it is not only the person in the lower echelons of drug peddling that is caught while the top operators are not. I know that in this particular field the Department of Customs and Excise has a difficult row to hoe in that sometimes when prosecutions are launched it is found the top operators have disappeared. That brings me to a question that I wish to pose to the Minister. I note that not all the member nations attended the original United Nations convention that was held to deal with this matter. The Minister might indicate to us the member countries of the United Nations who are not parties to this Convention. I know that over the years problems have arisen because certain people have refused to face up to their obligations under the Panamanian flag with relation to shipping. In the same way it would appear that certain countries are not facing up to their obligations with relation to drug addiction. Finally, the Opposition has no desire to delay the Bill unduly. We realise that it can do some good and we hope that it will achieve the objects we all desire it to achieve. 1335 KAW Victoria 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator WEDGWOOD - I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson) on presenting this Bill to the Senate. Its purpose is to control the manufacture of narcotic drugs from locally produced raw materials and to direct certain other operations involving drugs in accordance with obligations which Australia will assume on becoming a party to the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961. As the Minister explained in his second reading speech, the Single Convention is a codification of nine earlier international treaties on drug control and is the result of years of work by the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Trade in consultation with the World Health Organisation and other interested bodies. Fiftyseven countries and thirty-three territories have ratified it. The Convention covers all aspects of narcotic control, both national and international and forms the basis of a world-wide campaign against drug addiction and illicit trafficking. As the Minister has said, the Bill is the first of a number of steps that the Government proposes to take to counter the illicit production of and illicit trafficking in narcotics in Australia. My interest in this matter goes back over many years. 1 should like to remind -the Senate that it was on 12th July 1950, not long after I entered the Senate, that I asked my first question in connection with -he smuggling and use of drugs in Australia. In July 1951 I followed up my first question with another. I asked then whether the Australian Government had entered into an agreement with the United Nations to limit the production and distribution of narcotic drugs. Because I was disturbed at reports of drug smuggling and drug addiction, I persisted with questions in 1952, 1959, 1961, 1963, and 1966. Earlier this year I continued to ask questions. They covered increases in smuggling, methods of detection at airports and on ships. T recall that on one occasion I asked for information concerning a statement by a former commissioner of police in Victoria about the increase ;n drug smuggling. The replies that I received have been courteous in the extreme. Three Ministers have held the relevant portfolio since 1950, and on every occasion I have been informed that all efforts are being made to control and prevent the illegal entry of certain drugs into the country. Instances were reported where the vigilance of customs officers had resulted in the seizure of drugs and other goods. This was very good as far as it went, but my basic fears remained unassuaged because, from information I had received, I had reason to fear that Australia was likely to face problems similar to those of other countries where drug peddling and addiction had already reached extraordinary pro portions. I do not suggest that this matter should be over dramatised; nor do I believe that the dangers in it should be underestimated. Many Australians - I do not include the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson) amongst them - believe that drug trafficking and addiction find their places only in the police records of other countries or in parts of the often sleazy underworld stories served up as entertainment by film and television media. I am sure that it came as a great shock, therefore, to many people to read that Australia was in danger of being considered an important link in an international chain of drug pedlars and that many responsible people were voicing their concern about the control, or lack of control, of certain narcotics and hallucinatory drugs. The extent to which addiction is increasing in Australia is unknown, but it is worthy of mention that Article 18 of the schedule deals with the treatment of addiction. Dr M. S. Dalton, who is in charge of an alcoholic and drug unit attached to Parramatta Hospital in Sydney said recently that it was impossible to estimate the number of addicts. Speaking later to the annual conference of the Country Women's Association of New South Wales in Sydney, Dr Dalton said that addiction was just as tragic in the older age groups, although it was the younger addicts who were featured mostly in the newspapers. I was interested to note that Senator Mulvihill, who made a very worthwhile contribution to this debate, confined most of his remarks with regard to drug addiction to teenagers and young people. Dr Dalton, however, stated that there was a large group of addicts aged between thirty and forty who were mostly housewives with grown children. This group, she said, was addicted mainly to the barbiturates and sedatives and the cure rate for addicts was only between 5% and 40%. Once a person was cured he or she had to abstain from all forms of drugs for life. We have heard a lot of talk about narcotics and hallucinatory drugs. Dr Dalton supported much of what has been said because she claimed that of all drugs, these are the most dangerous types. She also stated that heroin has a 100% addiction rate. 1337 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - What did she mean by that? 1337 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator WEDGWOOD - She meant that almost 100% of the people who took heroin became totally addicted to it. 1337 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Anderson - There is no redemption, in other words. 1337 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator WEDGWOOD - That is so. I believe that the Bill before the Senate is evidence of the determination of the Commonwealth to prevent narcotics becoming available to the Australian public for other than bona fide medical purposes. This feeling is shared at State levels because all State governments have indicated their acceptance of the provisions of the Convention and, as the Minister has said, all necessary amendments have been made to their legislation by the States. 1 understand that in my own State of Victoria the police force recently strengthened its drug squad and that other States have taken steps to tighten control over both prescribed and illicit drugs. Sir DerrickDunlop, physician to the Queen in Scotland since 1961 and Chairman of the British Ministry of Health Safety of Drugs Committee, spoke on an ABC radio programme when he visited Australia last year. He referred to the insatiable demand of the public for medicine and to the fantastic amount of money expended in purchasing over the counter patent medicines which do not have to be prescribed. Sir Derrick said that potent drugs, especially drugs acting on the central nervous system, were being used too frequently for non-specific trivial reasons. These drugs, included tranquillisers, barbiturates and pep pills. Those are some of the drugs to which Senator Mulvihill referred. Sir Derrick then went on to say that some four billion capsules containing barbiturates were manufactured each year in the United States of America. Those four billion capsules represent the manufacture of only one country. The total number of pills of this kind manufactured in the world would be absolutely astronomical. I do not claim to have any clinical knowledge of the effect of drugs, nor would I presume to voice an opinion other than to say that I have been assured by a most reliable source that the dependence of persons of any age on drugs of a narcotic or hallucinatory type paves the way for possible addiction from which there is often no way back and no cure. In my opinion the legislation is most desirable and long overdue. Following control of narcotics, penalties for breaches of the law will be increased. Senator Mulvihill mentioned this aspect also. Unlike Senator Mulvihill, however, I see no reason why people who peddle drugs should be absolved from responsibility. I would like to see maximum penalties imposed for the breaches of the law committed by pedlars because these people know that by trafficking in drugs they are helping to destroy the body and soul of the unfortunate person they supply. I should like to see this Bill passed through the Senate with as little delay as possible. I congratulate the Minister on what I agree has been a lengthy and most difficult task, and I take comfort from the following statement in his second reading speech: Apart from these measures the Government is examining narcotics control generally with a view to identifying what further steps might be taken to safeguard the Australian public. 1 agree wholeheartedly with Senator Mulvihill that the Government's action needs support through educational programmes designed to point out to the Australian people, and particularly to our youth, that addiction to drugs is one of the most soul destroying experiences and that the end result is too dreadful to contemplate. I support the Bill. 1337 KTA New South Wales 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - As the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson) said in his second reading speech, this Bill is designed to control all aspects of the manufacture of narcotic drugs from locally produced raw materials under a system of licensing manufacturers as provided for in the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961. Bearing in mind the obvious great increase in the consumption of narcotics, not only in Australia but also throughout the world, let me say at the outset that it is surprising that the Australian Government has taken so long to bring a Bill of this very important nature into the Australian Parliament. I suppose this is a case of better late than never. But much more needs to be done in the future. I agree with Senator Wedgwood's comment that this legislation is long overdue. According to the history set out in the Minister's second reading speech, representatives of seventy-four countries including Australia met in New York in 1961 to draw up an agreement in relation to narcotic drugs. The Convention came into force, after it had been ratified by a certain number of countries, on 13th December 1964 and now in 1967, three years later, the Government has introduced this measure into the Parliament. This is a very important matter because narcotic drugs affect not only the lives and welfare of a great number of people but also, as history has shown, the welfare of nations. A narcotic substance is one which when swallowed, inhaled or injected into the system brings about a state of drowsiness, sleep, stupefaction or insensibility. The increasing trend towards the taking of narcotic drugs by sections of society, especially some members of our younger generation, must be of concern to all thinking people. Indeed it is rather frightening because hardly a day goes by that we do not read in one of the metropolitan daily newspapers in Australia some article about an increase in the smuggling of drugs, about a quantity of drugs having been picked up by customs officials, about the problems of people taking drugs and about the attitude adopted by pedlars towards their victims. The reliance of people on narcotics now appears to be so heavy that newspapers are devoting long and detailed articles to it. Only recently I read that the taking of drugs has become a status symbol among members of our younger generation. The Reverend Ted Noffs, who is in charge of the Wayside Chapel at King's Cross in Sydney, has had a lot to do with this problem. He has dealt with a number of drug addicts and has written a pamphlet on the subject. He divides members of the younger generation who take drugs into four different categories. He refers to the thrill seekers, the people taking drugs for the purpose of stimulation; the experimenters; the escapists; and the rebellious who want to get away from the present form of society. Dealing with the thrill seekers Mr Noffs says that it is inevitable that the question of drugs should arise in most discussions when young people are gathered together. More particularly it arises when conversation is focused on boredom with and sickness within modern society. He says that thus the stage is set in a definite cultural group for what is in many cases a social adventure. This gentleman has had a lot of experience with people who are addicted to drugs because they are sick of their ordinary, everyday lives. They want to get 'hep', which I understand is one of their terms. They resort to drug taking. When I was a young boy at school the closest that 1 and my contemporaries ever got to drug taking was to sneak down into the bushes and light up cigarettes. To us this was a status symbol, lt is sad to compare (hat practice with newspaper reports of young girls - fourteen, fifteen and sixteen years of age - at high schools taking the pep drug referred to by Senator Mulvihill as LSD. The nation has reached a very serious stage indeed. What a rat race it is. What a mad hatter's society it must be when drivers of motor transport vehicles in order to earn a reasonable living must rely for some reason or another on a co-pilot in the form of a pill or drug to keep them awake at the wheel. In the edition of 'Time' magazine of 5th May an article appeared on the subject of drugs in the United States of America. Reference is made in the article to transport workers. It states that drivers of independent trucks use 'bennies', which I understand are a form of stimulant, to stay awake and make longer runs. Motor fleet operators sternly forbid their use. The article states that when amphetamine stimulation wears off it may do so abruptly and put the driver to sleep at 60 miles an hour. Therefore not only is that type of drug a danger to operators of long distance vehicles, but also in some cases, as honourable senators can imagine, it could be responsible for fatalities of other persons on our roads. Perhaps a great number of Australians do not realise the importance and the serious nature of the legislation under discussion this evening. The 'Australian' of 21st November 1966 attributed certain remarks to Sir Derrick Dunlop, Chairman of the British Ministry of Health's Safety of Drugs Committee. He is reported to have said that about 10% of beds in general hospitals are occupied by patients suffering from the effects of drugs used to treat them; that is, 10% of hospital beds are occupied by people suffering from the after effects of drugs prescribed for their treatment. One can imagine the effects on the human body of drug taking without a prescription and without thought to the problems involved. If Sir Derrick Dunlop's assessment of the effectsof prescribed drugs is correct, it might be fairly asked: What is happening to people who are addicted to narcotics for the purpose of stimulation? Unfortunately there is no doubt on the evidence available to us that Australians are becoming a nation of pill swallowers. I do not mean that every person in Australia is engaged in the illicit use of narcotics, but even on prescriptive standards, according to a recent article in the 'Sydney Morning Herald', it is rather staggering to compare what is happening in Australia with events in the United States of America. On top of the chart of prescription usage of drugs in Australia are hypnotics - the sedatives and sleeping pills which rank no higher than seven on the prescription usage chart of the United States of America. The rating of analgesics - they are the pills, powders and tablets taken for real and imaginary headaches - on the Australian chart is fourth. On the American chart they are sixth. A comparison of the prescription usage of drugs in Australia and the United States shows that there is justification for the claim that the Australian nation, for whatever reason, is becoming a nation of pill swallowers. I have referred to what might be described as the legitimate use of drugs. In addition, of course, there are the people who are caught up in the illicit use of drugs. It has become a great problem which is growing and touching all sections of the Australian community. Recently I read in a Sydney newspaper that almost every type of drug, including marihuana, methedrine and the hallucination drug LSD to which I referred earlier, is available in New South Wales gaols and psychiatric centres. Not only are drug pedlars able to operate within the ordinary section of the community but also, by devious means or otherwise, they are able to get drugs into the gaols and psychiatric centres. 1339 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Does this Bill deal with that matter? 1339 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - This Bill deals with the control and manufacture of drugs, but I am dealing with the spread of the drug nuisance. I suggest that this Bill Joes not go quite far enough and that is the reason whyI have mentioned this matter to the Senate. This type of drug apparently is in use in New South Wales and 1 venture the opinion that probably it is also in use throughout Australia. Some of these drugs debilitate and destroy the inner fabric of man. If a drug leads to addiction the user often becomes so obsessed with it that he reaches the stage where he feels that he cannot live without it. In fact, he lives for nothing else. Therefore, as I was saying in reply to Senator Wright's interjection, whilst I personally do not cavil at the terms of this Bill, I think that far from sufficient has been done by this Government or by any government in Australia effectively to deal with and clean up this trade. Recently we read about Sydney being used by an international drug running company. From all reports that one reads, not only is the company growing internationally but it has an expanding market in Australia. But apart from trying to deal with the manufacture of drugs, from the curative point of view it appears to me that little, if anything is being done for the rehabilitation of people who have been caught up in this trade.I shall refer to a report which was called for by the President of the United States of America. A Commission was set up in order to tender him advice on narcotic and drug abuse in the United States. The report was tendered on 1st November 1963. I would suggest that anyone who is interested in this subject should obtain a copy of this report and give it very serious consideration. It is headed: The President's Advisory Commission on Narcotic and Drug Abuse'. It is the final report of the Commission of November 1963. In the preamble to the report the Commission states: The general philosophy of this Commission can be stated in three parts: The illegal traffic in drugs should bo attacked with the full power of the federal government. The price for participation in this traffic should be prohibitive. It should be made too dangerous to be attractive. The individual abuser should be rehabilitated. Every possible effort should be exerted by all governments - federal state, and local - and by every community toward this end. Where necessary to protect society, this may have to be done at times against the abuser's will. Pertinent to all, the causes of drug abuse must be found and eradicated. Drug users who violate the law by small purchases or sales should be made to recognise what society demands of them. In these instances, penalties should be applied according to the principles of our present code of justice. When the penalties involve imprisonment, however, the rehabilitation of the individual, rather than retributive punishment, should be the major objective. Those remarks were pertinent to the United States in November 1963, and because of the growing trade in Australia, I believe that they are very apt in Australia today. When one turns to the back of the report and sees the rehabilitation service that is provided for narcotic users, one sees that in a comparison between Australia and the United States very little, if anything, is being done in Australia. Senator Wedgwoodreferred to some comments which had been made by a Dr Dalton who is a woman psychiatrist attached to the alcoholic and drug addiction unit at the Parramatta Hospital in Sydney. Dr Dalton suggested that one of the first steps that should be taken towards overcoming this addiction problem was the establishment of a register of drug addicts. She pointed out, for instance - and I think that Senator Wedgwood referred to this - that heroin had a 100% addiction rate. Dr Dalton in this address which was extensively reported throughout the metropolitan newspapers of Sydney, at any rate, went on to say that in England if a person became addicted to heroin, the addict, after registering at the Home Office, was able to have prescribed a certain dosage in order to help overcome the addiction and the insatiable desire for more of the drug. It paid these people to register at the Home Office in order to receive appropriate treatment. Of course, our doctors and social workers are scattered throughout the length and breadth of this nation. Therefore I suppose it would be difficult to ascertain the number of addicts in any particular area. Surely ways and means of doing this have to be found. Consideration has to be given to effectively dealing with what could become a matter of very great national importance. We of the Opposition do not oppose the Bill. We believe that it will help a lot in tackling what is a great problem at the present time. Nevertheless, in order to prevent the problem expanding further, we believe that much more must be done towards eliminating this vile practice of narcosis. 1340 K8N South Australia 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - 1 want to make a comparatively brief contribution to this debate. In common with other honourable senators, in addition to having been supplied with a copy of the Bill and a copy of the second reading speech of the Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson), I have been supplied with notes that deal with the clauses of the Bill. I commend the Minister for having supplied this additional data, an action which is the exception rather than the rule in this chamber. I make what I believe is a fairly valid comment when I say that the wealth of material which is contained in the second reading speech and the notes on the clauses of the Bill only serve to indicate to me that this Bill and its implications need much more examination than they will get from the Senate before the Bill becomes law. I think that any honourable senator would be bold if he rose in his place and said that he had a complete and absolute understanding of the purpose of the Bill, how it will operate and whether when it becomes law it will meet the requirements of this country in the field of narcotics, both on the question of addiction and the way in which illegal narcotics find their way into the hands of people who become addicts or who take these drugs. I believe that we would be bold indeed if we felt satisfied that this legislation will provide any great degree of protection against the drug traffic which we are trying to fight. I do not want anybody to get the idea, because 1 have said this, that I am unhappy about this Bill having come before the Senate. I believe that there is and has been for some time in this country a growing awareness of the very great evil that narcotic drugs cause in the community. We know what evil they have wrought in other countries where their use has been allowed to gain a foothold and where addiction has become widespread. I do not suggest either that this measure is too little or that it is too late. But I believe that we must take some other action to provide the sort of precautions that are necessary if we are to be able, as a legislative chamber, finally to say that we are satisfied with the legislation introduced for the control of narcotic drugs. Having said that, Mr Acting Deputy President, I want to touch on a subject that I raised some weeks ago by way of a question. The Minister for Customs and Excise will no doubt recall the question. I asked whether the Government had considered the advisability of establishing in this country a counterpart of the Bureau of Narcotics in the United States of America and whether the time was considered right for the establishment of such a body. I am not yet convinced that the measures that the Minister, in his reply, stated were to be taken will adequately meet the situation. As 1 have said, I have at this stage examined the Bill, the Minister's second reading speech and the accompanying notes only cursorily. I am still not satisfied that if we were to refrain from establishing some overall authority similar to the United States Bureau of Narcotics we would be acting in the best interests of this country. Such a body could deal expertly with narcotics problems and determine how the people of Australia could best be protected from narcotics. There are two branches of this problem. The first is the availability of narcotics and addiction to them. The second, I consider, is perhaps the more important of the two. lt concerns the manner in which narcotic drugs reach this country illegally. There is no need for me lo remind the Senate that in the last year or so in particular we have experienced mounting disquiet at the number of hauls, as the customs officers call them, of narcotics that have been taken from overseas ships in some of the capital city ports. I believe that the magnitude of these hauls has prompted the Government to introduce this measure, or at least has speeded up its introduction. This is a good thing. But I am still disquieted by the thought that the measures provided for in this Bill may not adequately meet the situation that confronts us in Australia at present. As I have said, the Department of Customs and Excise has had some success in detecting illicit imports of drugs. I commend the officers of the Department on their vigilance. 1 believe that no group of men could perform better within the limitations imposed on them and the bounds of the procedures under which they work. But I consider that they are being inhibited by the fact that we are not tackling the narcotics problem in a proper and cohesive manner. I believe that we ought to have some overall authority in the form of an Australian bureau of narcotics. We might give it any name, but we should at least have some expert advisory body that could deal with the whole problem of the prevention of addiction on the one hand and the protection of Australia from the introduction of narcotics from other parts of the world, and particularly the Far East, on the other hand. I know that il: is comparatively simple for people in this country who are so disposed to grow certain plants and produce dangerous drugs for themselves. As we know, a person in Sydney was recently convicted on a charge of growing in his bathroom the plant from which the drug marihuana is produced. We all are aware that this and other drugs can be produced readily from plants that may be easily grown in this country. However, I believe that the real danger that confronts us is that presented by the possibility of imports of narcotic drugs in large quantities, mainly from Asia, and especially from the Far East. The great danger that we face has been emphasised by the large hauls that customs officers have discovered, particularly in the last two or three years. It was the increase in the volume of illicitly imported drugs being discovered by customs officials that prompted me to ask the Minister whether the Government considered that the time had arrived when we ought to consider the establishment in Australia of a bureau of narcotics. I believe that if we adopt the view that because illicitly imported drugs have been found only in capital city ports it is only at those places that any problem in relation to imports exists, we are only fooling ourselves. We are ever conscious of the fact that this country has thousands of miles of unguarded coastline. There is no doubt in my mind that dangerous drugs are landed in this country by foreign ships not only at capital city ports but also at obscure points, perhaps between Sydney and Brisbane or between Brisbane and ports farther north, as well as off the north western coast of Western Australia. One can only conjecture about this, but I am reasonably certain that ships secretly land unlimited quantities of drugs at convenient points along unguarded stretches of our coastline. One needs no particular measure of imagination to concede not only that this probably happens but also that it is almost a certainty. 1342 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - There is a great profit in it. 1342 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - As Senator Mulvihill has reminded me, the risks may be great, but the profits are similarly great. People who get the opportunity to make great profits out of narcotics will certainly take the risk and go to any amount of trouble. I believe that as Australia is so vulnerable to illicit imports of narcotics landed at isolated and secret points on the coastline, we ought to exercise much more care and look beyond the capital city ports and also beyond the secondary ports. We can profit by studying the experience of other countries The Coast Guard in the United States is continually fighting a running battle with drug runners, lt is a vigilant organisation and it has the facilities that it needs to deal with those who traffic in drugs. We must realise that what happens in other countries will inevitably happen here, because the habits and practices of people who deal in drugs are the same the world over. We should not fool ourselves by believing that the only narcotics that enter this country are those that come in through the capital city ports. Wc must take preventive measures not only at those ports but also round our entire coastline if we are to prevent the illegal entry of dangerous drugs. I believe that the factors that 1 have outlined support my contention that we need to go further than is envisaged in this Bill and that we should constitute some overall authority, separate and apart from the customs service, lt is worth recalling that the Bureau of Narcotics in the United States is responsible not only for preventing the illegal entry of narcotics into that country but also for co-ordinating the nation's counter measures against addiction and illegal trafficking in drugs within the country. Unless Australia adopts a similar system we must forever have in the back of our minds the unpleasant possibility that the measures that we are taking are purely stop gap ones which will not meet the requirements of the situation. I hope that the Minister, in his reply to this debate, will pay me the compliment of giving a more considered reply than he gave to the question that 1 asked some weeks ago. If he does that, I and all other honourable senators will be pleased to hear the Government's views not only on what happens in the capital city ports but also on what is likely to be happening in the great stretches of unguarded water between the capital city ports. If the Government is satisfied that nothing of the nature I have suggested is likely to happen or is happening, I believe it is much more easily satisfied than 1 am. That was the main reason for my intrusion into this debate. The only other contribution that 1 wish to make on the Bill now before the Senate is on the matter of advertising. To some extent, because we permit unrestricted advertising of some drugs that can be, and in many cases are, used for addictive purposes, we are culpable in helping people to form an addiction to these drugs. It is all very well to say that in a private enterprise system people should not be inhibited in advertising their products; but some type of supervision should be imposed on advertising drugs which are potentially dangerous and which could lead to addiction. 1342 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - Which drugs would come within that category? 1342 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - It is interesting lo note a statement made by Lord Shawcross who, rather than criticising the advertising of drugs, was supporting it. He said: One of the criticisms heard about the drug industry is that their advertising policies are irresponsible and that too much money is spent upon them. I would not for a moment suggest that in the past advertising executives may not have put out material which was exaggerated or in poor taste, or both; the pharmaceutical industry is not alone in that. But, in fact, the proper advertisement of drugs is an essential step in ensuring that the medical profession is made fully aware of the potentialities and uses of particular drugs. 1 do not entirely agree with that. Before somebody reminds me of the fact, I must hasten to say that I am nowhere near being the authority that Lord Shawcross is. But 1 am entitled to my opinion. I feel that I must differ sharply from his statement because every day one sees instances of the advertising of certain drugs that could lead to some type of addiction. I give the Senate one illustration. Every day in the Pressin my State - I do not know whether this applies in Queensland, the State of Senator Morris, who interjected - one can see an advertisement for a certain type of sleeping tablet, which tells people that they can get a restful sleep if they take one of these tablets every night. 1343 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - It is non-habit forming! 1343 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - That is so, but the person has to take one every night! This is indicative of the fact that some supervision of this type of advertising is required. One of two things is so. Either the drug that is being advertised has not any of the dangerous properties of a sedative and therefore the advertising is misleading, or, if it is a drug the taking of which could lead to addiction, there should be some supervision and people should be given some protection from being brainwashed in relation to the potentialities of this type of drug. That is only one illustration. Each honourable senator could find in the newspapers in his State every day quite a number of illustrations of my contention. The people who will have the responsibility of administering this Bill might well give some consideration to the question of advertising. They might find out, first of all, whether the drugs that are advertised have any harmful or addictive properties. If they do, some restriction should be imposed on them. If they do not the fact that emerges is that the advertising must be misleading and untrue. These are matters to which the Senate could well give consideration. There are other points which I had in mind and to which I wish to refer; but they would be dealt with more appropriately at the Committee stage. I should like the Minister to give me a reply to my suggestion about the formation of a federal bureau of narcotics to tidy up and to integrate all of the forces needed not only to prevent drug addiction and drug trafficking in Australia but also - perhaps this is more important - to prevent the illegal entry of drugs into Australia, which I consider represents the most dangerous invasion that any country can have. 1343 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - I would like to feel happy about congratulating the Government on the introduction of this Bill. I know that it is a necessary Bill and that it follows the passage of a Bill that tightened up the drug traffic and narcotics trade around the waterfront. The Minister for Customs and Excise (Senator Anderson) has been concerned about this matter for many years now - in fact, ever since he became Minister for Customs and Excise. He will remember that about three years ago, in company with other honourable senators, I called attention to the fact that the waterfront was understaffed. I had been approached by customs officers who were really working under difficulties. I give the Minister credit for being able to increase the staff around the waterfront. He has made a great impression. The customs officers are more than happy about what has been done to relieve them of their heavy burden. Sydney had developed the reputation of being the drug clearing house of the world. Whether that was true I do not know. But this Government attempted to do something about the position in Sydney. Possibly Sydney is entitled to that reputation. I live around the waterfront - in the Woolloomooloo, Potts Point and Kings Cross areas. I know the great scourge that the drug trade constitutes. I know its effect on young people in particular. I am glad that we have in the Senate three or four lawyers who are interested in the preservation of liberty and who can see legal injustices where the layman may not sec them. My experience of the people who are affected by the drug trade is that more or less all of them are people who have not much to live for in this world. Whether their attitude is justified is another matter. I meet these people in the streets of Kings Cross every day that I am around that area. I see the young people particularly at weekends. That brings me to the point which I want to make and in which I think Senator Wright will be particularly interested. The explanatory notes that have been circulated state: Clause 20 provides that an offence against Part III may be prosecuted summarily or upon indictment. If the offence is prosecuted on indictment, a maximum penalty of $4,000 or imprisonment for ten years or both upon conviction is laid down. Where the offence is prosecuted in a court of summary jurisdiction the defendant may be committed for trial or if dealt with summarily is subject to a maximum penalty of $1,000- That clause does not apply to any of the people 1 see who are involved in the drug trade. Mostly these are people who have lost their places in society for various reasons. They are the long hairs and the beatnik population around Kings Cross. There are probably 10,000 people of this type around that area. These people are all over Sydney today, lt is the new form of youth that we have today. These people are supposed to be trying to find their place in the community. I am not sympathetic to them at all but it is around these people that drug addiction seems to operate. Some of them indulge heavily in the use of drugs; others indulge only to a very little extent. Some of them are on the drug LSD. J have spoken to a number of them. I think that this legislation is much too heavy in ils application regarding LSD. I do not want it to appear that 1 am looking with admiration on the drug LSD. But I. do think that this legislation is very heavy handed where these people are concerned. Most of them are penniless or next to penniless. They do not know where they are living most of the time. They are getting a little kick along from their drugs. I do not think the punishment matches the crime. 1 may be completely wrong- 1344 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Does not the offence dealt with in clause 20 apply to the person who listributes the drug? 1344 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Anderson - The honourable senator is talking about the recipients and not the distributors. 1344 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - 1 have explained that 1 am not a legal man. I do not want to become technically involved in the matter. In a place not far from my home marihuana is grown in the window box of a flat in which certain people live. 1344 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Anderson - The honourable senator had better come to my Department and report the matter right away. 1344 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - AH right. But this is going on everywhere. All over Kings Cross people are growing their own marihuana. After all, marihuana is grown in the Hunter River valley. I once asked a question about that in the Senate. I was told that it was a State matter. We should shift this obstacle out of the way and do something about making it a Federal matter. The Minister for Customs and Excise is doing that now. But marihuana grows all over Australia. 1344 K1T 0 0 BENN, Archibald Senator Benn - lt grows wild in Queensland. 1344 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - lt grows wild everywhere. What is wrong with these people - these miniature addicts who live around Kings Cross - bringing a few roots home and growing it in their window boxes on their window sills? If an investigator locates one of these people, what is his fate? Will he go to gaol for two years? From the Minister's interjection I gather that he visualises these penalties applying to the big manufacturer; he is the one who will be gaoled for ten years or fined $4,000, or both. Certainly the Bill must have these people in mind because it could hardly apply to what I call the small traders in drugs. Yet they are the menaces around Sydney because they are almost everywhere. Heroin and other minor sorts of drugs- 1344 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator Toohey - Minor? 1344 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - In minor quantities I mean. Only the other night on television I saw a programme in which various people were handing around their prescriptions or their recipes in much the same way as a woman hands out a recipe for her scones. The Government has a great difficulty in front of it in clearing up this sort of trade. But I believe that this is a matter of addiction more than anything else. If the Government wishes to tackle the matter, first it must try to solve the problem of the long hairs, as they are called. They do exist. They are a part of the community today. They have even set up their own employment office at Kings Cross. In the last month they have put about 700 or 800 of these long hair types into jobs. They have found it difficult to obtain jobs. I make a plea on their behalf because I think we have to accept the fact that there are people of the long hair type and the beatnik type who say that they are trying to escape from modern society or give some other excuse for their action. We must do something about educating them. I do not know that they love their drugs. They get a kick out of LSD for a while. I think that is all it amounts to - a kick. They are not heavily drugged. But the heavily drugged people whom one sees around are a really great problem. I get the impression that this Bill could be too severe in its application to them. When I was a pressman before I entered the Senate - that is not so long ago - a big organisation was running drugs. This is a problem that the Government really needs some assistance to handle. I do not know whether the police force is capable of handling it. It would be a matter to bs dealt with at the State level. But in the incident of which I had experience a big quantity of drugs was dropped into Sydney Harbour. They were taken to a certain place in Crown Street in Sydney from which they were distributed. There were 150 customers on the distribution list. The little parcels of drugs were taken down to a big Sydney retail store. The man distributing them walked in and asked for a pair of pants or a blanket or some other item for a Mr So-and-So at such and such a place in Vaucluse or Bellevue Hill. He said to the person across the counter: 'Wrap this small parcel up with the item and send it out to this man'. So the drug was delivered in a smart wagon belonging to one of the biggest stores in Sydney. This practice went on for some time. Drug distribution is a clever trade and it is big business. This Bill may deal with people who deal with drugs in a big way like that. But my sympathies are with the beatnik type of drug addict whom I see every day of my life. The Reverend Ted Noffs has established the Wayside Chapel at Kings Cross. So some people are trying to help these drug addicts. He has a theatre and a coffee house for them. They bring their paintings there and they may have a little bit of LSD. The Reverend Ted Noffs is doing very good work. I believe that the Government ought to set up this type of agency to deal with this problem as it is to be found in all our major cities. Of course, we do not know the extent of drug addiction in private homes. I do not think that the Bill extends that far. Clause 24 gives power for authorised inspectors to inspect the manufacturer's premises, stocks and records at any reasonable time and to take samples for assay. A maximum penalty of $1,000 is provided for obstruction of an officer in his inspection duties. An authorised inspector in clause 24 means an officer authorised in writing by the Minister for Customs and Excise to carry out inspections. Obviously the clause is aimed at fairly large businesses. These inspections do not apply to the type of people about whom I have been speaking, yet they are the ones who get most of the publicity. They are the unfortunate people who are suffering as a result of this industry. It would be almost impossible to eliminate the use of drugs in fashionable homes or at fashionable levels of society. 1345 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Has the honourable senator looked at the power of entry contained in clause 24 and considered whether it is wider or narrower than the power of entry that was given to inspectors under the Poultry Industry Levy Collection Bill which we dealt with during the Budget session last year? 1345 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - -I would like to discuss that in Committee so 1 shall raise it then. Clause 25 permits the Minister and the Comptroller to delegate their powers under the Act, except the power of delegation. Clause 26 relates to the serving of notices on persons and clause 27 gives power to make regulations under the Act and provides a miximum penalty of SS00 for offences against the regulations. 1345 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - The honourable senator is not suggesting that they would have $50, is he? 1345 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - 1 do not think they would have, but I do not see how the Bill can put an end to their situation. 1345 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - The honourable senator is talking as though he is suggesting that the penalty should be to give them a drink of milk. 1345 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Not at all, but I do not think this measure wm solve the problem of the small addicts, I would call them. Nor must it be forgotten that for every drug addict there are ten thousand alcoholics. We must be careful in framing legislation of this type. We might find next that purple hearts come within the provisions. If the authorities start arresting people who take purple hearts many families of good social standing will be affected. We might find next that the truck drivers come within the ambit of the legislation. In the next Bill we might deal with truck drivers who take drugs to keep themselves awake at night. I know that is also a problem. Drugs cover a much wider field than is envisaged in this Bill and the Government has opened up a very large scope for investigation. In England the insurance companies - private enterprise undertakings - have taken an interest in this subject and have set out to help the Government to deal with the drug trade. I propose to read a report to the Senate because it shows that at least they are thinking in different terms from this Government on this problem. The report states: Insurance companies have joined a nation-wide drive to smash the drug racket in Britain. Insurance companies are doing this because chemist shops have been broken into and have become the targets of people who want to break in to get drug supplies which are stored in chemist shops. The report continues: The insurance companies are demanding highly improved standards of security. Raids on chemist shops have rocketed in the past 12 months as drug pedlars have made the apothecary's shop their target to maintain supplies. A number of highly experienced burglary surveyors working for insurance companies have undergone a special course in the type of security needed to stop raiders reaching the drugs stored in chemist shops. lt is understood preliminary investigation has already shown a complete lack of security by many chemists. The chemists are culpable. They are nol looking after their drug slocks and are not keeping them in the security which is necessary. I dare say the same sort of thing is happening here. The situation of the chemist might be covered by the Bill, but I do not see any specific reference to it. The report continues: The survey is being carried out mainly by companies which belong to the British Insurance Association. The association represents 2S0 companies dealing with more than four-fifths of Britain's insurance business. Insurance cover is to be made much more difficult for chemists who do not take the required precautions to ensure their drug stocks are safe. The association is working closely with the Home Office and police forces throughout the country. Regular talks are held between all crime prevention authorities and the crime prevention subcommittee of the British Insurance Association. The association revealed that in 1966 member companies paid out $40m in crime losses compared with $32m the previous year. 1346 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator Fitzgerald - Who said that? 1346 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - This is a report on an investigation of chemist shops in England in relation to the drug trade. The report continues: Mr KennethBevins, the chairman of the subcommittee, said, 'It is disturbing to have to report another substantial increase in crime losses for the year and to realise criminals are getting away with more than $750,000 a week'. Mr Bevinssaid a rougher and tougher policy was being adopted by insurance companies in cases where there was failure to introduce proper and adequate safety precautions. That part of the problem has been dealt with in England. Private enterprise - the chemist shops and insurance companies - have combined to help the Government to block some of the escape channels for the drug pedlars in London and elsewhere in England and Scotland. I do nol know whether the Government's attitude extends so far as that in Australia. I do not think it does. There are State laws and Federal laws in relation to these things, but the Bill does not give me any indication that the Government proposes to seek the co-operation of the various police forces of the States to attack this great problem. As I said earlier, I congratulate the Government on what it is doing. I think the Minister has taken on a difficult task. In conclusion I should like to refer .o a problem which might get me into a bit of bother. Often I have been critical of radio and television for over-dramatising. Although I believe that a television station has a duly to expose evils, I think there is a way in which this should be done so that adolescents are not shown how easy ,t is to obtain drugs. Television stations are very careless of their responsibility. I would be the last one in the world to try to suggest what television stations should show in a programme such as Project 67 or a similar documentary programme, but I often feel that they go too far in dramatising something like the drug trade as they did one night last week. They showed how easy it was to make your own drugs. The programme showed this going on all over the port of Sydney where young people get together and exchange recipes for the various types of drugs. I do not see how the Government can solve that problem without much assistance from chemists, the pharmaceutical industry, State police authorities and State governments. I have before me a note stating that Mr Jago, the Minister for Health in New South Wales, is concerned about the amount of drug addiction in the asylums and psychiatric centres in Sydney. He spoke especially about the worry of the parents and relatives of people who are in Callan Park. The situation is particularly serious when an uncontrolled drug trade is carried on in our psychiatric institutions. I congratulate the Minister on the Bill. However, I believe it needs much public support to see it through. Nevertheless I commend the Minister for his efforts in trying to control the drug traffic. 1347 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - in reply - lt seems lo me that everything I have heard here tonight is a complete vindication of this legislation. I congratulate late honourable senators who have spoken and who have recognised the need for this legislation. Without wishing to show any disrespect for Senator Mulvihill, who led for the Opposition in this debate, I want to come first to some of the things that were said by Senator Ormonde, because they are fresh in the minds of all of us. While congratulating the Government on the action being taken, he went on to suggest that the drug commonly known as LSD was only a minor drug and that he was concerned lest the penalties he loo severe in certain instances. I want to make quite clear that the Government and I personally, as the Minister responsible, make no apology for the penalties that are provided in this Bill or in the Bill that will follow. Senator Ormondespoke of terrible things that are happening to people in the community. He described them in a certain way. I will not be so all-embracing. He said that these people were victims of drug addiction in minor form or major form. This Bill is calculated to protect these people. The penalties prescribed are calculated to act as a deterrent to those evil people who peddle the drugs to the victims about whom he speaks. Much of his speech was about the victims of drug addiction. We have before us a Bill which provides penalties that are severe - one might say unprecedented - but they are prescribed as an acknowledgment of the seriousness of crimes relating to drug addiction. I say that no-one should waste any sympathy on the small pedlar or be confused by the suggestion that LSD is only a minor pep drug. It is a fact of life that LSD is a drug that is a softener-up. Persons who start on pep pills or on LSD are sitting shots for the next phase of drug addiction. As far as we are concerned, the pedlar of LSD is just as culpable, just as evil, just as rotten as the pedlar of any other drug. That is the position as far as the Government is concerned and as far as I am concerned as the Minister responsible for the time being for this legislation. I want to make perfectly clear that we are out to protect people. Much of what Senator Ormonde said concerned the responsibilities of the States in relation to supervision of State laws concerning addiction. Under the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs and under the Bill I hat we have before us, all of the States have accepted their responsibilities and have carried out their part of the arrangements. Reference is made to this fact in the second reading speech. The penalties prescribed by the States for those who do wrong things in relation to drugs compare with the penalties proposed in the Bill. The Bill provides that a person who is dealt with summarily and is convicted will be subject to a maximum penalty of two years imprisonment or a fine of SI, 000 or both. If the offence is prosecuted on indictment, the maximum penalty prescribed is S4.000 or imprisonment for ten years. These provisions as to penally were arrived at after the Attorneys-General of the States and the Commonwealth had met to consider the problems. Having regard to the responsibilities of the Slates and the Commonwealth in relation to narcotics, they recommended that the penalties should be as the legislation prescribes. It is not only the Commonwealth that is involved. The States, loo. are playing their part. I want to come to a few questions that were raised - properly - by various honourable senators. Senator Mulvihill referred to minor drugs of addiction. In a circulated amendment these have been incorporated in the description of narcotics. 1348 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - This involves hippies and such people. 1348 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The insidiousness of this particular problem is such that an innocent boy or girl of nineteen or twenty years of age could be induced to take one of these so-called pep pills in a sweet, chocolate or sandwich or in some other way, without being conscious of the implications of it, and would find himself or herself caught up in the need to take a pep pill again. In this way they take the very first step towards the dangers about which we all know. We must prescribe a minimum penalty of some magnitude and significance. That is why the minor penalty is provided. 1348 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - What minor penalty? 1348 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I am referring to the penalty prescribed upon conviction in a court of summary jurisdiction, which is two years imprisonment or a fine of Si. 000 or both. 1348 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - The Minister referred to a minimum penalty. He did not mean that. 1348 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - No. I meant a maximum penalty. It may bc that when we get into the Committee stage we shall have a more informal discussion. Senator Mulvihill suggested that perhaps we did not have enough people in the Department who spoke foreign languages. I think it would be true to say that we have not enough; we want more. But we have officers who meet arrivals at all points of entry, and particularly at big points of entry, who are able to speak foreign languages and who arc capable of handling the situation. In all of these things we can visualise a situation in which we could do with more of a particular type of person on a particular occasion to meet a particular situation. Senator Mulvihill referred also to countries thai had ratified the Single Convention. As Senator Wedgwood indicated, as at 18th April fifty-seven countries were parties to the Convention. I do not propose to read the whole of the list, but it includes such big countries as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Czechoslovakia, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Spain and Japan. With the concurrence of honourable senators, I incorporate the complete list in Hansard. It has to be understood that this Bill stems from a convention that came out of the United Nations Economic and Social Council, lt has to be understood, also, that, contrary to what Senator McClelland had to say, up to the present time we have been able to control the import of drugs under our customs laws. The urgency of this Bill emerges when we discover that the manufacture of narcotics for bona fide purposes such as medicine is about to commence in Australia as the result of plans being well advanced to manufacture morphine and derivatives from raw materials of local origin. lt is not true to suggest, as Senator McClelland has done, that we were doing nothing and that suddenly we have got a spurt on. Something has been done. The fact is that we have control over the importation of raw materials under our customs laws, and we are now taking power under a system of quotas and licences to control the manufacture of narcotics in Australia. 1 should like also to make some reference to a statement that was made about heroin. It is well to remind the Senate that the importation of heroin into Australia is absolutely prohibited and has been so for some considerable time under our customs laws. I repeat that there has been no delay in introducing this Narcotic Drugs Bill. I felt that the purpose of the Bill was rather misunderstood by many honourable senators who spoke. This is a measure by which we are going to control the manufacture of narcotics. They will be controlled until t hey reach the wholesaler. After they reach the wholesaler, the responsibility will move from the Commonwealth and the States will control them under their narcotics laws. There is quite proper provision in the Bill for extreme penalties to be imposed on those people who fail to accept the responsibilities they have with relation to documentation and the control which the Department of Customs and Excise will lay down and which, to a large extent, is spelt out in this Bill. Senator Tooheyreferred to a bureau of narcotics. He has suggested that it may well be that, whatever is being done in relation to the world problem that is emerging in connection with narcotics, we need to be looking beyond the normal controls that are being exercised at both Commonwealth and State levels. In the first place, we have to understand that we have a federal system - a division of power. In fact, this Bill points out that the States have certain responsibilities. But it is proper that I should say to Senator Toohey and all other honourable senators that at the present time the very highest level of senior officers of various Commonwealth departments are making a very important examination of the particular problems that may be associated with other powers that it may be necessary for us to assume. If honourable senators look at the final paragraph of my second reading speech they will find that it points out that the Government is not saying that this is the ultimate in what is going to be done. I think it is proper that I should say to the Senate that in fact we are looking closely at what is being done in other parts of the world. A close study is going on at present and it is probable that in the fullness of time, after further studies have been made through the United Nations organisation, which I understand is in conference at present in connection with certain other drugs which it may be necessary to bring under control, we will need to come to the Parliament again with further amendments. 1 want to give the Senate the unqualified assurance that it is the strong determination of the Government, with relation to the control and manufacture of narcotics and in connection with our customs laws, by-laws and penalties, not to be content to say: 'Having done this, we do not need to do any more'. We propose to continue with all the research that may be necessary, and where it is considered appropriate we will not hesitate to come to the Parliament to deal with any matter that may emerge. Perhaps I have missed some points that some honourable senators have made. If I have. I regret it, but when we are discussing the Bill in Committee, where the procedure is less formal, we may get an opportunity to deal with any point which any honourable senator may wish to raise. I thank the Senate for its assurance that the Bill will have a speedy passage through the second reading stage. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee. The Bill. 1349 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - We indicatedthat we were not opposed to the general policies of this Bill and that we would give the second reading of the measure a speedy passage, which we have done. But there are a number of observations I would like to make on the various clauses of the Bill which we are now going to consider in detail. Firstly perhaps I should say that, in fact, this is a. Bill to carry out the international obligations which Australia assumed under the United Nations Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961. Of course, that is six years ago. When that Convention was made we knew that we would be expected to do something about it. We have allowed a number of years to pass while various countries added their agreement to the Convention. That process ended in 1964. Last year, apparently the Commonwealth and State Attorneys-General got together to consider the various penal provisions of the Bill. That was some considerable time ago. Now, into the rush of legislation, with the two Houses considering some thirty or more Bills and having very little time to do it, we find that we have injected this Narcotic Drugs Bill with some laudable provisions but also with a great number of detailed clauses imposing offences upon citizens and dealing in some remarkable ways with their rights. Honourable senators are called upon to consider it at this stage as a matter of urgency, apparently, because the Minister indicated that that was what he wanted. I regret very much that he has indicated that. It is most unfortunate that honourable senators should have to deal with a matter of such great importance with this degree of urgency. I cannot see why it has to be done. The whole world knew that there was a narcotics problem. There have been years to consider this problem but here we are faced now with these clauses. I say quite frankly that honourable senators have not time 10 consider the implications of the various clauses of this Bill in the way they should be considered. When the Minister replies I should like him to tell me why, in the clauses dealing with offences in relation to drugs, all sorts of provisions have been handled in a lump sum way. A great number of offences has been created. There are offences which may be major offences; there are offences which may bc minor offences, yet they are all lumped together in relation to penalty. Clause 15, which comes within Part III - Offences in Relation to Drugs - is in these terms: - (1.) A person shall not manufacture a drug unless he is the holder of a licence granted under section 9 of this Act to manufacture that drug. Clause 17 provides: A licensed manufacturer shall comply wilh any direction given to him in pursuance of section 12 of this Act with respect to the handling of drugs or narcotic preparations. When one turns to proposed section 12, one finds the directions expressed in this way: - (1.) The Controller may, by notice in writing served on a licensed manufacturer, give directions to him with respect to the handling of drugs in his possession or control. (2.) A direction under this section may be given in respect of drugs generally, in respect of a drug of a kind specified in the direction or in respect of such particular drugs are as specified in the direction. That means any kind of direction - an important direction or a minor direction. If one looks at the other provisions one finds that there are some extremely important matters, such as the destruction ot drugs, and some minor matters. However when one turns to penalties one docs not fmd, as one would expect to find, m'.nor penalties in relation to minor offences and major penalties in relation to major offences - gradations of penalty depending on the intent of the defendant or the circumstances of the case. Instead one finds this extraordinary provision in clause 20: - (1.) A person who contravenes or fails to comply with a provision of this Part is guilty of an offence against this Part punishable upon conviction by, subject to sub-section (3.) of this section, a line not exceeding Four thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding a period of ten years, or both a fine not exceeding that amount and imprisonment for a period nol exceeding that period. (2.) An offence against this Part may be prosecuted summarily or upon indictment, but an offender is not liable to bc punished more than once in respect of the same offence. One would hope not - (3.) Where proceedings for an offence against this Part are brought in a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may either determine the proceedings- One notices that no option is given to the defendant - or commit the defendant for trial, but, where the court of summary jurisdiction determines the proceedings, the court shall not impose a fine exceeding One thousand dollars or sentence the offender to imprisonment for a period exceeding two 'ears, but may impose both a fine and a period of imprisonment in respect of the offence. This Bill deals with serious matters. There is no doubt that Part III wilh which we are concerned covers extremely serious offences. There is no doubt also that Part III may cover minor offences, but let me deal with the serious offences, which may be the simplest way to consider the matter. Here are serious offences - charges of a nature so serious that a person may become liable to imprisonment for ten years. There can be no doubt that this is a very serious matter. It is a serious matter to be charged with any offence - whether relating to narcotics, manslaughter or anything else - in the criminal code which involves liability to such a term of imprisonment. Irrespective of the penalty one may receive ultimately, the charge is a serious charge. The thread which runs through our law and has run through it for centuries is that when a citizen is charged with a serious offence he is entitled to trial by jury. Here is a provision whereby a person who has committed an offence that, at the option of the prosecution, can render him liable to ten years imprisonment upon conviction by a jury, may, without any option, be dealt with without a jury. In other words, he may be dealt with on summary proceedings before a magistrate or similar official and there he may be given two years gaol. Leaving aside the question of the two years gaol, the serious aspect is that, a citizen may be dealt with for an offence of this weighty nature without the opportunity of trial by jury. The Constitution of the Commonwealth includes a provision which was intended to prevent such a happening. Section 80 of the Constitution provides that all trials on indictment shall be by jury. Unfortunately that section was given an interpretation which has been much criticised as one of the most ridiculous interpretations ever given by a court. The court suggested that it was only when an actual indictment was issued that the citizen was entitled to trial by jury and that a government, by not indicting him but by charging him orally or in some other way, could avoid this great constitutional protection. It is to be hoped, as many learned writers have said, that in the future that interpretation will be changed. The relevant words of the section are these: The trial on indictment of any offence against any law of the Commonwealth shall be by jury. Irrespective of the interpretation of that provision, the philosophy of our law is that any serious offence against the criminal code shall be dealt with by a jury. This Bill contains a serious departure from that principle. It is no use saying, as the Minister may say, that such provisions have occurred in the Customs Act previously and that there may be a few similar provisions in State legislation. That is true, but 1 am raising this matter because at some point of time it has to stop. The practice started with the provision that in respect of certain offences for which a person was liable to serious punishment on indictment on trial before a jury, if that person were tried summarily the punishment could be a sentence of six months imprisonment. Then we find that in the Commonwealth Crimes Act the sentence may be twelve months imprisonment, but that Act contains a provision which requires in most instances that a person may be dealt with summarily only with his consent. That provision does not exist here. In this Bill we have the twin evils - the defendant has no option of trial by jury, and the penalty is two years imprisonment. I say it is time we put a stop to this. We should set some limit. When a person commits a serious offence - no one can doubt that these are serious offences - he is properly entitled to trial by jury. This legislation has all the earmarks of either haste or insufficient consideration. I am not impressed by the fact that the Anorneys-General of the Commonwealth and the States got together to consider these things. That would be perhaps the worst atmosphere in which to decide important legal questions affecting the citizens of this community. These are important questions. We are not concerned about lesser penalties which may be imposed on citizens. Nothing I am saying is a plea that persons who commit serious offences should not be punished adequately. I am concerned about the mode of trial. There is not the slightest suggestion from me that the maximum penalty of ten years imprisonment should be reduced. Let that be quite clear. 1 say that if the Bill were properly put together more consideration would have been given to the various offences instead of having a lump sum to deal with all of them, major and minor, irrespective of circumstances. That is the criticism I make, but in general 1 am not concerned about the penalty itself. Do not let thai, become a side issue in this matter. The important consideration is the mode of trial. As this legislation stands a citizen in this community may be charged with a most serious offence and summarily tried. It. is important to observe that the Crimes Act itself applies to this measure and that there is an extension of the provisions of that Act. Section 5 of the Crimes Act applies so that great width is given to these matters. It states: Any person who aids, abets, counsels, or procures, or by act or omission is in any way directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in, or party to, the commission of any offence against any law of the Commonwealth or of a Territory, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act, shall be deemed to have committed that offence and shall be punishable accordingly. It is clear that the provisions of this Bill represent a very great extension to the operations of the Crimes Act. There may well be cases where a person will be charged with being in some way, directly or indirectly, concerned in a matter. He may say: T am innocent. I am not concerned with whether there is a penalty of two years or ten years. I am not concerned about coming before a magistrate and perhaps getting punishment of only two or three months. 1 say that I am innocent and I insist upon having trial by jury'. Am I to believe that legislation went through this Parliament to provide that a citizen in this community charged with a serious offence - it might be called a dreadful offence - which would render him liable to be charged and punished by a maximum of ten years imprisonment plus a fine of $4,000, is not entitled when he wants it to trial by jury? This is a very serious matter and I would like the Minister to tell me his answers to these questions. Why is it that provision cannot be made for the consent of a defendant to summary trial, thus leaving it to both the prosecution and the defendant to decide upon a summary trial. That could easily be provided. 1352 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1352 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I rise only to enable Senator Murphy to continue his remarks. 1352 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - I thank the Minister for his courtesy and consideration. If what I have suggested cannot be done, I ask alternatively: Why does not the Government provide in any event that the penalty should not exceed one year? That provision would be in line with the classic thread which runs through the Constitution and distinguishes between offences dealt with by one year's imprisonment and other offences. A thread seems to run through much of the legislation. I am not saying that in this Bill some precedent for this matter cannot be found. 1352 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - ls the honourable senator asking for a reduction of the penalty? 1352 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - No. I am saying that a line has to be drawn. 1 am saying: Let the maximum penalty of ten years stand. Let that be firm. But I am also saying: Why should we not take the course of bringing this legislation into line, for instance, with the provisions of section 12 of the Crimes Act, which states, in part: (1.) Offences against this Act, other than offences expressed to be indictable offences, shall he punishable either on indictment or on summary conviction. (2.) Where proceedings for an offence against this Act are brought in a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, the Court may either determine the proceedings, or commit the defendant for trial. Honourable senators will be aware that the words 1 have quoted are very similar to the words in clause 20, sub-clause (3) of this Bill, which states: Where proceedings for an offence against this Part are brought in a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may either determine the proceedings or commit the defendant for trial, but, where the court of summary jurisdiction determines the proceedings, the court shall not impose a fine exceeding One thousand dollars or sentence the offender to imprisonment for a period exceeding two years, but may impose both a fine and a period of imprisonment in respect of the offence. A line is drawn between summary matters and indictable matters at one year. Section 12a of the Crimes Act states, in part: (I.) Any proceeding in respect of an offence against this Act, although declared indictable, may, with the consent of the defendant, be heard and determined by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. Sub-section (2) then provides that the consent of the defendant is not necessary if the charge relates to property the value of which is less than $100. Trivial matters are thus provided for. 1352 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - In effect the honourable senator is advocating a reduction of penalty so far as this Bill is concerned? 1352 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - No, I am not. It is important to observe this point. I am drawing a line at the mode of trial and saying that there are principles which should be applied in respect of it. The legislation has classically drawn this line in two ways: Firstly, by providing for the consent of the defendant. He can have a summary trial instead of exercising his right to trial by jury. Secondly, in respect of matters which have been considered to be trivial - and perhaps not so trivial because a punishment of one year's imprisonment is involved - he may be subject to summary trial. My point is this: Let the ten year penalty stand. I am concerned with the mode of trial. Are we to extend the set-up where a citizen in this community can be given a summary trial; that is be deprived of trial by jury in respect of extremely serious offences and then be given more than one year's imprisonment without trial by jury? It is as simple as that. Do not let us' be distracted from this issue by a discussion of a reduction of the penalty, because the penalty will remain the same. A defendant is still open to be prosecuted under any circumstances before a jury and to be given ten years imprisonment. I have not said one word to detract from that penalty. 1353 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - This Bill provides for two years imprisonment and the honourable senator is advocating one year's imprisonment. 1353 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - No. The honourable senator should either be fair or listen to what I am saying. I am not asking that the penalty be reduced from tcn years. I say firstly that the proper principle is that a man on a serious criminal charge should be entitled to trial by jury. Next, we ought to strive to ensure that he is not to be deprived of that right without his consent. But I say that in any event we ought not to extend this legislation past the situation where he would be liable to more than one year's imprisonment on summary conviction- 1353 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - That is the point where I disagree. 1353 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The point to come back to is that under any circumstances at all it is still open to the prosecution to take a defendant before a judge and jury and, if he is convicted, in the discretion of the judge he will receive punishment up to a maximum of ten years imprisonment plus a fine of $4,000. I have not said anything to detract from that position. I have suggested that no man should be sub jected to summary trial - that is to be deprived of the right to appear before a jury - unless he consents or unless it comes within the area of punishment which might be regarded as minor, that is, up to one year's imprisonment. Do not let us start extending the summary mode of trial out and out, from punishment of six months imprisonment to twelve months imprisonment to two years imprisonment. Where will it stop? The important thing for honourable senators to understand is not the punishment; it is the mode of trial. We have almost reached the time for the adjournment of the Senate. I ask Senator Anderson to give consideration overnight to the matters I have raised so that perhaps this legislation might be improved. If he does not consider improvement is necessary, then I indicate that I propose to move an amendment. 1353 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - -In the time of less than one minute left to me before the Senate adjourns, 1 want to make it perfectly clear- Consideration interrupted. 1353 10000 0 0 CHAIRMAN, The The CHAIRMAN - In accordance with the sessional order relating to the adjournment of the Senate, I formally put the question: That the Chairman do now leave the Chair and report to the Senate. Question resolved in the affirmative. (The Chairman having reported accordingly) 1353 adjournment The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMulIin) - Order! In conformity wilh the sessional order relating to the adjournment of the Senate, I formally put the question: That the Senate do now adjourn. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1353 23:31:00 Senate adjourned at 11.31 p.m.