1967-10-18 26 1 2 SENATE 1335 0 1967-10-18 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) took the chair at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. 1335 Questions 1335 1335 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Acting Minister for External Affairs. In view of the tremendous importance of reaching an agreement that will result in the opening of the Suez Canal, has the Australian Government given any consideration to the proposals being sponsored by Mr Nikezich, the Yugoslav Foreign Minister, who is at the present time conferring with the British Government? 1335 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I have no knowledge of the proposals actually advanced by this gentleman. I shall seek from the Department of External Affairs its comments on the question, or the honourable senator may put it on the notice paper. 1335 1335 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation. In view of the widespread misunderstanding among the public, will the Minister take steps to make it generally known that persons travelling on commercial airlines arc not automatically insured for £7,500 as implied on air tickets but for only portion thereof - if at all - dependent on a means test principle? 1335 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - It is a fact that there is a misunderstanding. Certain requirements have been spelled out in the Civil Aviation (Carriers' Liability) Act. I think it would be proper in all the circumstances for me to ask that the question be put on the notice paper so that we may get a considered reply in depth from the Minister for Civil Aviation. I ask that that be done. There is quite clearly a misunderstanding on the part of many people in relation to this matter. 1335 1335 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - Does the Leader of the Government in the Senate know when the papers relating to flights by VIP aircraft will be tabled, as ordered by the Senate? 1335 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I cannot give the honourable senator a date. I know that a considerable amount of work is proceeding in an endeavour to discover details of the people who have flown in VIP aircraft, the places to which they have flown and at what times. This work is in progress and at the moment I cannot give the honourable senator any more definite answer than that. 1335 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - Has the attention of the Minister representing the Minister for Air been drawn to the edition of the Melbourne 'Truth' of 14th October last in which it was stated categorically that records arc kept of the costs incurred by all flights of VIP aircraft, including details of the persons who travel in those planes and the amounts of food and drink provided to them? The report also stated that definite figures are available to show that about §60,000 was spent in one year on the transportation by VIP planes of Mr McEwen, the Deputy Prime Minister. Is the report correct? If not, will the Government issue a denial? 1335 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I did not see the article referred to by the honourable senator, although I have heard some mention of it. The fact that the report appeared in that particular newspaper does not necessarily mean that the details given are correct. As the Leader of the Government in the Senate has just informed the Senate, considerable work is being done to meet the request for papers relating to flights by VIP aircraft to be tabled in the Senate. Any information that can be made available lo the Senate will be made available when those papers are tabled. 1335 1335 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - Is the Leader of the Government in the Senate aware that on 14th September 1965 the present honourable member for Kennedy promised club facilities to the senior citizens at Cloncurry in Queensland? Can the Minister inform the Parliament when the club facilities will be made available and whether such facilities will be financed by government grant or on a subsidy basis? 1335 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Of course I am not aware that on 14th September 1965, the honourable member for Kennedy- told somebody that club facilities would be provided for senior citizens at Cloncurry. Perhaps the honourable senator is confusing the promise that the Government made to provide more money for aged persons homes under legislation which the Opposition has so far prevented the Senate from passing. 1336 1336 JTT 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - I preface my question to the Minister for Repatriation by referring to his recent visit to the Artificial Limb and Appliance Centre at Adelaide. Can the Minister give an indication of the progress on the Centre and when it is likely to be completed? Will the range of appliances to be made there be an extension of those already being produced elsewhere? My next query refers to a question that I have asked earlier of the Minister. Will the new Centre be used for training courses for people undertaking the manufacture of artificial limbs and appliances? Can the Minister give any figures showing the quantity of appliances and artificial limbs that are likely to be produced at the Centre and the number of persons who will be employed there? 1336 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - It is true that I took advantage of an opportunity on Monday last to visit the almost completed repatriation Artificial Limb and Appliance Centre at Adelaide. The Centre will cost about $140,000. It will be the most modern artificial limb factory in Australia. Until now the artificial limb factory at Hollywood, in Western Australia, has been the outstanding centre of its kind, but I am quite convinced that the new Centre at Adelaide will be more modern and even better than the Hollywood centre. As to training courses, this will depend on whether the people who need training will be available in Adelaide. Otherwise I would imagine that these people would be trained in the artificial limb factories in the States where they reside. Last year the artificial limb factory in Adelaide supplied 10S legs, 738 articles of surgical footwear and 91 items of adapted footwear. Other surgical 2,605 repairs were effected. It might be of interest to honourable senators to know that the total output of the repatriation artificial limb factories last year was 18,042 items, appliances totalling 809 were supplied and 1336 1336 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I direct a further question to the Minister representing the Minister for Air. Has the Minister's attention been drawn also to another article which appeared in Melbourne Truth' of 14th October last in which it was claimed that while public relations officers of the Royal Australian Air Force and the Department of External Affairs are transported to and from Vietnam by luxury jet aircraft, wounded servicemen being brought back from Vietnam travel in noisy, slow Lockheed Hercules transport aircraft? If this allegation is correct, will the Government take steps to see that wounded servicemen are provided with the same form of comfortable transport as is provided for unwounded public relations officers? If the allegation is not correct, will the Government deny it? 1336 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - Questions were asked a few months ago about the transportation of wounded servicemen from Vietnam. Following those questions, one of our top medical men, who, 1 think, was an Army officer, accompanied some of our wounded servicemen in one of these Hercules aircraft. As a result of this trip, he formed the opinion that the aircraft now being used are the best types for the purpose. 1336 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - No one will agree with him. 1336 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - It is not a matter of whether the honourable senator agrees with him. There are not very many people who agree with the honourable senator. The officer to whom I refer would not be holding the position he does unless he was a very highly qualified man. 1 would not imagine that Senator Turnbull has had the opportunity of travelling with these wounded servicemen. The important point is that the position has been looked at. Reference has been made to public relations officers travelling in what have been termed luxurious aircraft. I would imagine that the only other form of transport would be that provided by the normal commercial airline operators. 1336 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - No. They can get a VIP aircraft any day. 1336 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - I thought Senator Wheeldon had asked me the question. I repeat that it has been established that the present method of transporting wounded servicemen back to Australia from Vietnam ls satisfactory in the opinion of those whose job it is to advise the Government on transport matters. 1337 1337 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I address a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport. Has the Bureau of Roads yet obtained all the staff required for its effective operation? If not, what staff is still required? What is the Bureau doing to obtain the required staff/ When can the Senate expect a report on the activities and findings of this important Bureau? 1337 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I cannot say precisely when the Senate will receive a report, but I can undertake to get a prompt answer to the other questions asked by the honourable senator. Therefore, I ask that the question be put on notice. I shall then endeavour to expedite a reply for him. 1337 1337 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation whether he can give me any up to date information regarding the proposed airport passenger surcharge mentioned in the Budget. Has the Minister been made cognisant of the views of the councils of rural towns and cities, and of individuals who, in country areas, have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars towards the purchase, establishment and upkeep of their local aerodromes? Will the Minister give the- Senate an assurance that there will be a differentia] in the charge to be made for passengers flying into and out of country airports? 1337 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - Quite clearly, I could not give the assurance for which the honourable senator asks because his question is directed to the Minister for Civil Aviation. I can say, generally, however, that the details of the scheme for passenger service charges are still being worked out and will be considered by the Government when they have been finalised. All factors relating to rural aerodromes will be taken into account by the Government when it considers the proposed charges. 1337 1337 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - I address a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Air. Last week I tried to obtain an Air Force order. I think it was No. 736. I am not sure of the number, but the Minister will know it. He will remember that I went to his office and asked his staff whether I could have a copy of this order. Both the staff and the Minister told me that the document was unobtainable. My memory has not served me correctly. Was it because the information was classified or restricted, or was if merely a case of sheer obstinacy? 1337 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - I do not think that I have ever allowed obstinacy to interfere with my duties either as a senator or as a Minister. When it does, perhaps I should leave this place. Once again I will have a look at this request- 1337 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - What was the reason? Would they not give it to the Minister? 1337 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - If the honourable senator will just wait I will tell him. Once again I will have a look at this matter and confer with the Minister for Air to see whether the form can be provided for the honourable senator. 1337 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - I direct another question to the Minister representing the Minister for Air because he has not answered my previous question. His staff informed me that this Air Board order was unobtainable, and I think the officer told me that this was because it was classified. I do not want to get myself into error and blame him. The Minister came to mc himself and said: 'I am sorry, I cannot get this order for you. It is unobtainable'. I am not certain whether he said it was classified or restricted. The Minister must know what his officer told him. Either that or he is just being obstinate. 1337 KTL 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - Once again I want to emphasise that I am not being obstinate. The honourable senator- does not recall the exact terms of the question. I do not recall my exact answer. 1337 1337 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - My question to the Minister representing the Minister for the Army arises from a complaint which was made to me by the mother of a regular serviceman on duty in Vietnam stationed at Nui Dat to the effect that it is very difficult for servicemen to write home owing to the shortage of postage stamps, and that the parents and relatives of servicemen have to send postage stamps to them for this purpose. Will the Minister institute investigations into this complaint? If there is a shortage of stamps as mentioned, will steps be taken to ensure that adequate facilities are available for servicemen in Vietnam? 1338 KTL CP 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator McKELLAR - The answer to the honourable senator's question is Yes, I will see that investigations are made into this complaint. I know that the conditions complained of were not in evidence when I was in Vietnam at Christmas last year, and if they existed at the time the complaint was made to the honourable senator I should not have thought they would have been allowed to continue for very long. However, I will make investigations into the matter. 1338 1338 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - This is my final question regarding VIP aircraft. It is directed to the Leader of the Government while the matter I am about to raise is fresh in his memory and he will not have to send for the papers. For the general edification of the very interested public will he explain the reason for which he used a VIP plane to travel to Launceston and Burnie? This would be as good an example as any of the use of such aircraft. What was the purpose of the Minister's trip? How many were in the crew? How many passengers travelled with him? What was the designation of each passenger? At what time did he leave Melbourne and at what time did he leave Burnie? 1338 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - And what did he eat and drink? 1338 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - No. I know that loyal Ministers eat only pies and sausage rolls. 1338 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I shall bc delighted to supply the information for which the honourable senator has asked on the understanding that I am speaking to the very best of my recollection. I used the plane concerned to attend the Launceston Show, having been invited to be a member of the official party for the opening ceremony: Unfortunately I missed out getting on to the official stand because I was having lunch at the time. That was the purpose of the first engagement. The second engagement was a meeting being held in Burnie. It was not a political meeting or a meeting ot any political party. It was a joint meeting of groups of people who were interested in State schools, in independent schools and in education generally to discuss education and also employment opportunities. I was invited to attend the meeting. This is a continuing organisation, and I gather that at its next meeting it will be addressed by Mr Neilson, the Minister for Education in Tasmania. The meeting that I attended was a public meeting. I think, of some public importance. I did not leave Melbourne. I left Canberra at approximately 10.30 a.m. Canberra time. I arrived in Launceston, to go to the Show, at approximately 12.30 p.m. Tasmanian time, which is now different from Eastern Standard Time. I then drove to Burnie for the meeting to which I have referred, lt finished at about 10.30 or 10.45 p.m. Tasmanian time. I left at about 11.30 p.m. Tasmanian time, saved an hour on the way back, and arrived back at about midnight. I. was able to be in my office first thing, or relatively first thing - 1 think it was about 10 o'clock - the next morning. If I had not used this aircraft, either I would have been unable to attend those engagements or 1 would have had to leave Canberra on the Wednesday morning and 1 would have arrived back late on the Friday afternoon. 1338 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - What about the number of crew? 1338 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I did not count the crew, but I would say that there were three or four. I do not believe that I had anything at all to cat on board, but to the best of my recollection I did have a Scotch. 1338 1338 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - Is the Minister for Housing aware that last week a municipal council in Sydney - the Blacktown Municipal Council - approved of the establishment and development of what is described in official language as a hazardous, offensive and obnoxious chemical factory on 70 acres of land comparatively adjacent to which are many homes which have been erected in recent years and which are occupied and being purchased through the War Service Homes Division by ex-servicemen who have moved to this area for health reasons? Will the Minister investigate this matter and see whether the report is correct, whether there is likely to be any deleterious effect on the health of the ex-servicemen concerned as a result of the establishment of the factory, and also what effect the construction and operation of the factory is likely to have on the values of the properties being purchased by these ex-servicemen through the War Service Homes Division? 1339 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I am not aware of all the factors that the honourable senator has brought to my notice in his question. I shall certainly look at them and endeavour to obtain all the information I can for him. 1339 1339 KOW LP 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Yesterday I undertook to obtain as soon as possible an answer to a question asked by Senator Wheeldon about trade with Rhodesia. I am informed that the Australian Wheat Board does not have any representatives presently in Rhodesia, but that a delegation from the Board visited Rhodesia in August in the course of an overseas mission to a number of countries which regularly buy wheat from Australia. Honourable senators will be aware that sanctions are not imposed on wheat exports to Rhodesia. (Question No. 270) 1339 1339 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: Has the Minister's attention been directed to a report of a recent statement by the Victorian Premier, Sir Henry Bolte, calling the Commonwealth Government's hospital benefits scheme for pensioners 'a racket and a confidence trick, costing the State of Victoria $19m a year' - representing the difference between the cost of tr eating pensioners and the $5 a day provided by the Commonwealth? Has the Government any plans to deal with ihis situation, or does it expect the States to increase hospital fees generally? 1339 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Health has furnished the following reply: My attention has been drawn to statements by the Premier of Victoria relating to the present arrangements under which the Commonwealth pays $5 a day towards the cost of providing free treatment in public wards of public hospitals for pensioners. These arrangements are neither 'a racket' nor 'a confidence trick'. The Commonwealth has never intended at any stage to meet the full cost of the treatment of pensioners in public wards of public hospitals. The cost of treating this section of the community has traditionally been the responsibility of the State governments. Prior to 1946 pensioners generally received free treatment in public hospitals, entirely at the expense of the State governments. However, the Commonwealth now assists the States in this regard in order that pensioners may be relieved of the necessity to pay hospital insurance but may still receive free public ward treatment. Payments by the Commonwealth during the year 1966-67 for the treatment of pensioner patients in public wards of public hospitals amounted to $18.7m of which $4.2m was paid to public hospitals in Victoria. (Question No.298) 1339 1339 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD asked the Minister representing the Minister for Health, upon notice: Has the Government any information on the current incidence of bubonic plague in Vietnam? Has the Minister seen a statement of Dr Dunwoody, a British doctor and member of Parliament, who, on returning from Vietnam about 3 months ago, was reported as describing the situation then existing as a massive problem and as claiming that between 10,000 and 20,000 Vietnamese were suffering from the plague and that the plague had been detected recently in America in people returning from Vietnam? Will the Government thoroughly investigate this matter? 1339 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Health has furnished the following reply: Information is regularly received by my Department from the World Health Organisation regarding the incidence of quarantinable diseases throughout the world. During the period 1st January to the beginning of August this year there were 615 cases of plague, including 30 deaths, notified in respect of the Republic of Vietnam. There were also 4,084 suspected cases of plague, including 158 deaths. Neither I nor the officers of my Department have yet seen this statement However, inquiries are being made and the statement will be studied when it is received. I should mention that all persons arriving in Australia from overseas are subjected to quarantine screening for disease, including plague. In addition, strict measures are taken to prevent the entry of plague with rats and other animal vectors. These measures have proved to be highly effective over many years, but I can assure the honourable senator that quarantine procedures are under constant review in the light of changing circumstances and the incidence of diseases, including plague, in other countries. (Question No. 311) 1340 1340 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER asked the Minister rep resenting the Minister for Health,' upon notice: In view of the fact that hundreds of people in Australia use surgical appliances after undergoing colostomy operations, will the Minister give consideration to the free issue of these appliances under the national health scheme? 1340 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Health has furnished the following reply: As a matter of Government policy, surgical aids are not at present issued under the national health scheme. However, the Commonwealth provides considerable assistance to patients who have undergone colostomy operations by supplying as pharmaceutical benefits a range of sprays, creams, solutions, powder and surgical cement which these patients are required to use constantly for their conditions. I understand that in most States there is an association through which colostomy patients can obtain appliances at reduced rates. (Question No. 322) 1340 1340 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL asked the Minister representing the Minister for Territories, upon notice: What is the area of land in the Northern Territory which has been leased by the Tipperary Land Corporation? What are the details of the cost and term of the lease? Does the establishment of Tipperary Station entail the complete destruction of habitat utilised to the full by grey wallabies and buffaloes? What compensation is this American corporation making to offset this gigantic fauna ravishment? 1340 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister for Territories has now supplied the following answer: The Tipperary Land Corporation acquired by private purchase Pastoral Lease No. 562 (Tipperary Station). This has an area of 3,560 square miles. The lease was renewed for 50 years from 1st July 1960 at a Crown rental of $2,136 per annum. The rental is based on a valuation of the lease as pastoral lands and is re-appraised every 10 years. Recent amendments to the Northern Territory Crown Lands Ordinance require that lands within a pastoral lease developed for agricultural purposes be valued and re-appraised as agricultural lands. Pastoral Lease No. 562 will be reappraised on 1st July 1970. Tipperary Station was established about 1920. The proposed development of part of the lease by the new owners is in line with trends' throughout Australia to put suitable rural lands to more productive use. The dominant fauna of the area is the agile wallaby. Past experience has shown that clearing and sowing of crops and pastures encourages the increase of this species. Tipperary is not the preferred habitat of the buffalo and only a few are found in this area. Production of cattle will still be the main activity over most of the area which will remain uncleared. (Question No. 327) 1340 1340 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Territories, upon notice: What are the details of the ownership of a fishing vessel known as the 'Papuan Prince' which is reported to be registered in New Guinea and to fly the Australian flag? Has such a vessel the approval' of the Department of Territories in carrying a crew mainly composed of Japanese? 1340 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister has now supplied the following answers: The vessel 'Papuan Prince' is owned by the South Sea Fishing CompanyPty Ltd, a company registered in the Territory of Papua and New Guinea with its registered office at Port Moresby. The company purchased the vessel from Japan. The South Sea Fishing Company Pty Ltd has the approval of the Minister for Territories for operation in New Guinea waters subject to the majority of capital being held and continuing to be held by Australian or Papuan or New Guinean investors. The first year's operations were to be exploratory in nature using a factory ship - the 'Papuan Prince' - with a predominantly Japanese crew. Detailed proposals for the development of the operation, in the light of the exploratory operation, are to be submitted to the Minister for Territories within 12 months from the beginning of the exploratory operation in May 1967. The original proposals submitted by the company envisaged a substantial employment of indigenous personnel by the company in any extension of operations beyond the exploratory stage. (Question No. 336) 1341 1341 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: How many applications for naturalisation were refused in each year since 1960? How many intending migrants were refused visas in each year since 1960? How many intending migrants were refused entry permits in each year since 1960? How many Australian citizens were refused passports in each year since 1960? Were applicants in any of these categories given the reasons for such refusals; if so, in which categories? 1341 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Immigration has supplied the following reply to the honourable senator's questions: With visa applications arising throughout the world on an increasing basis, it is not practicable to maintain the detailed statistics which would be required to give a specific reply to this question. However, experience in the major source countries in Europe indicates that of every 100 applicants who undertake the necessary checks to determine whether they can meet normal entry requirements, approximately 90 are granted entry visas. All persons entering Australia, if they are immigrants within the meaning of the Migration Act - including persons entering for temporary stay - receive entry permits on arrival, or they become prohibited immigrants upon entry. The operation of the visa system results in very few refusals of entry permits at point of arrival in Australia and these have usually been persons such as stowaways who lack authority to enter. Entry permits are also issued as extensions of temporary entry permits, or to confer resident status upon temporary entrants eligible for that status. Statistics of refusals have not been maintained. Statistics of refusals of Australian passports have not been kept. Refusals are extremely rare, however. When an application for naturalisation is refused or deferred on the grounds that the applicant: has not an adequate knowledge of English or of the responsibilities and privileges of citizenship, or is unable to meet requirements as to residence, - it is the practice to give the reasons to the applicant, but not when refusal or deferment is based on other grounds. Statistics of refusals and deferments under (a) and (b) are as follows: Where a visa or entry permit is refused, it is not normal practice to give the reasons for the decision. The character and political background of applicants for passports are not made the subject of inquiry and are not a basis for decision of applications as a general rule. In a few cases passports have been refused to persons who were fugitives from justice, or who had used previous passports for repeated criminal activities overseas, or who were known to contemplate activities abroad of a violent nature directed against the peace, order or good government of another country. These persons refused passports have either been informed of the reasons or have been aware of them. (Question No. 362) 1341 1341 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Territories, upon notice: What is the approximate number of Aboriginal children eligible for primary education in the Northern Territory? What is the number of Aboriginal children actually attending primary schools in the Northern Territory? 1341 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The Minister has now supplied the following answers: There are an estimated 4,080 in the 5 to 12 years age group. 3,642. In addition, at 30th June 1967, there were 1,084 part-Aboriginal children in primary schools in the Northern Territory. 1341 distinguished visitors 1341 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! I wish to draw the attention of honourable senators to the presence in the gallery of members of the British delegation of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, led by the Right Honourable Lord Stow Hill, Queen's Counsel. On behalf of honourable senators I extend to them a cordial welcome. Honourable Senators ; Hear, hear! 1342 miscellaneous 1342 1342 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - I have received from Senator Tangney an intimation that she desires to move the adjournment of the Senate for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of public importance, namely: The Government's failure to honour its international obligations and to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for men and women for work of equal value. Is the proposed motion supported? (More than the number of senators required by the Standing Orders having risen in their places) - 1342 K7Y Western Australia 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - 1 formally move: The the Senate. ;ii ils rising, adjourn till tomorrow at 9 a.m. I believe that it is particularly appropriate to bring this proposal before the Senate today because this week is being celebrated throughout Australia as National Equal Pay Week. There may be some misconception in the minds of a lot of people as to what is really meant by the term 'equal pay'. We have heard it said that it means equal pay for the sexes. That is not so. It means equal remuneration for work of equal value, irrespective of the sex of the person who performs that work. We realise that many avenues of employment are peculiarly suitable for women, for which they receive appropriate remuneration. The proposal now before us does not envisage every woman in Australia suddenly receiving at least the male basic wage. That would be a ridiculous suggestion. There is a great need for the Government to face up to the responsibilities which it has to shoulder as a member of international bodies. Over the years we have been very proud of the part that Australia has played in the formation of some of these national bodies and of her being a member of them. When the United Nations came into being in 1945 the Australian delegation played a very important part in its establishment. We were honoured when Dr Evatt was appointed president of the General Assembly of the United Nations. During the sessions of the organisation which were held in Paris in 1948 the original Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was of particular interest to women, was formulated. Since that time, on every occasion when the equality of women in regard to opportunities and remuneration has come up for confirmation before the appropriate bodies the Australian delegates have either voted against the proposal or have abstained from voting. Today we have the startling fact that forty-five nations in the world have adopted the principles of the United Nations charter and of the International Labour Organisation conventions but Australia has not done so. We regard some of these nations as backward countries, and to some we are giving economic aid. We regard ourselves as being a very advanced nation, as enjoying a very high standard of living and as being blessed very prolifically by nature; yet we just do not measure up to our responsibilities as a member of these international organisations. In order that the Senate may understand more fully what is actually meant by the proposal we are discussing. I refer to the fact that earlier this year the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations submitted to the General Assembly the text of a draft declaration relating to the elimination of discrimination against women. I would like to read extracts from this resolution, which was drafted only in May of this year. The preamble reads: The General Assembly, Considering that the peoples of the United Nations have, in the Charter, reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women. Considering that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights asserts the principle of nondiscrimination and proclaims that all human beings arc born free and equal in dignity and rights and that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth therein, without distinction of any kind, including any distinction as to sex. Taking into account the resolutions, declarations, conventions and recommendations of the United Nations and the specialised agencies designed to eliminate all forms of discrimination and to promote equal rights for men and women. Concerned that, despite the Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other instruments of the United Nations and the specialised agencies and despite the progress made in the matter of equality of rights, there continues to exist considerable discrimination against women, Considering that discrimination against women is incompatible with human dignity, and with the welfare of the family and of society, prevents their participation, on equal terms with men, in the political, social, economic and cultural life of their countries, and is an obstacle to the full development of the potentialities of women in the service of their countries and of humanity, Convinced that the full and complete development of a country, the welfare of the world, and the cause of peace require the maximum participation of women as well as men in all fields, Considering that it is necessary to ensure the universal recognition in law and in fact of the principle of equality of men and women, Solemnly proclaims this Declaration: I do not intend to read all this draft declaration. 1 shall read only the articles that are relevant to the matter before the Senate this afternoon. 1343 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - What is the date of the draft declaration? 1343 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - It is dated 29th May 1967. Article I reads: Discrimination based on sex, denying or limiting as it does equal rights between men and women, is fundamentally unjust and constitutes an offence against human dignity. In part, Article 2 reads: The principle of equality of rights shall be embodied in the constitution or equivalent law of each country; The international instruments of the United Nations and the specialised agencies relating to the elimination of discrimination against women shall be ratified and fully implemented as soon as practicable. Article 10 seeks to accord to women: The right to equal remuneration with men and to equality of treatment in respect of work of equal value. The same Article goes on to state that in order to prevent discrimination against women, these proposals should be ratified by all the governments which have signed the various charters and which are constituent members of the United Nations. Only yesterday, in another place, there was given an answer to a question upon notice seeking to ascertain how the Australian delegation would vote now that the matter is to come before the United Nations General Assembly once more. The Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt), in his reply, stated: Australia is nol currently a member of the Economic and Social Council which subsequently adopted the same text. I have just, read part of that text. The answer given by the right honourable gentleman went on: The current (22nd) session of the General Assembly has not yet given consideration to the draft declaration and any amendments to it That being so, I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) whether the Government has considered this matter and whether it has given any instructions to its delegates at the United Nations now that it is known that the matter is specifically to be raised during the present session of the General Assembly. It has always been the proud boast of supporters of this Government and of all in this Parliament that Australia has adhered to its international obligations. Even when the parties represented in the Parliament have differed over some of those obligations the government of the day has stood by its treaty obligations and in this has received the loyal support of the party or parties in opposition, lt is incumbent on the present Government to support the declarations that have been made by the United Nations through various instrumentalities and also by the International Labour Organisation if we are to hold up our heads as citizens of one of the nations that really honours its obligations. True, this declaration has not yet been ratified by the United Kingdom, Canada, the United States of America or New Zealand, in addition to Australia. But it has been ratified by forty-five other countries. The number might have increased since I was given that figure. The United Kingdom, for instance, does give equality to women employed in its government work force. So does the United States of America. I happened to be in the United States in 1964 when the United States Government, had just brought out its report on the status of women in that country. It had appointed a special committee to deal with the position of women generally, with the disabilities or otherwise that they suffered - legally, constitutionally, politically, economically and in any other way. 1343 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - What are the fortyfive nations sponsoring the draft agreement? 1343 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - They include Algeria, Albania, the Argentine, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Byelo-Russia, China, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Equador, Gabon, Guatemala, Federal Republic of Germany, France, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Italy, Ivory Coast, Libya, Malagassy Republic, Mexico, Norway, Panama, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Senegal, Sweden, Syrian Arab Republic, Ukraine, United Arab Republic - Egypt, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Yugoslavia. At the Forty-second Session of the International Labour Organisation, Australia adopted the convention and recommendation concerning discrimination. However the Australian Government delegates abstained from voting in connection with the convention, but supported adoption of the recommendation after the convention had been approved. During the past 15 or 16 years we have seen the same shilly-shallying on the part of Government representatives at these conferences. They agree in principle but when it comes to a vote they walk out or vote against the proposal. Of course, I have seen the same thing happen in the Senate. The reason why I have brought the matter up is that t happen to be one of the few women in this community who, in the employment that they follow, enjoy the right of equal pay. I doubt whether any male honourable senator would take it very kindly if women senators were paid less than he was. 1344 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - What about the equal value part of it? 1344 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - Male senators would not for one moment dare to suggest that any woman in this Senate does not give service of equal value. I do not think that even Senator Cormack would dare to come at that. 1344 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - I am trying to get the formula to apply. 1344 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - As a matter of fact, if work were paid at its valuation it might be quite a different story. I am not pointing the bone at anyone. Senator Cormack had better be a bit careful because he does not know what might happen if he pursued that line. Before I entered the Senate I happened to be a teacher. In that profession women were discriminated against although we had done exactly the same course of training and had exactly the same qualifications as, and sometimes' much higher qualifications than, our male colleagues had. When they were sick we were called upon to do their jobs. During the war I had to take control of a football team. All I could do was to take the members of the team down to the playing field, count them as they went on, let them go for their lives and count them as they came off, and if the number was the same everything was all right. That was part of having to do a man's job in many fields in which we were not trained or capable. But where women are capable of doing a job and where the result of their labour is equal in value, they should not be penalised and made to become a lower rate work force. Some mcn oppose this principle because they are afraid for their jobs. They say that they are saving up to get homes and to look after families when they come along and so forth, which is very good. But I think that in these days of equality of education each year more women are entering more fields which were hitherto primarily open only to men. Earlier in the century very few vocations were open to women. They could become seamstresses. Their industry has always been a cradle of sweated labour. Many years ago, after my father was injured in an accident - this was before the days of workers' compensation - my mother was forced to do white sewing for a big firm in Perth. I never enter the premises of that firm. She had to make pillow slip and pillow cases and was paid 3d a dozen. If the articles had frills around them she was paid 5d a dozen. Out of that payment she would have to supply her own tapes and cottons. Those were the conditions from which women have been rescued. Women could become shop assistants. What happened during the depression? They were employed as shop assistants only during the busy hours of trading. They were hired to work between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. and were paid only hourly rates - a couple of shillings an hour. This method was used to avoid employing them for a full week. Female doctors are not found in such great numbers as their male counterparts. Female doctors are not given opportunities equal to those given to male doctors and few are found in the top ranks of their profession. Women doctors are employed in the Commonwealth Public Service. They have excellent academic records and they treat patients in exactly the same way as do male doctors. They are employed in repatriation hospitals, but because they are engaged in the Public Service they receive a lower rate of salary than do male repatriation doctors. When I was in Los Angeles I met Mrs Wilson, an Australian Trade Commissioner in the United States. She is doing a very fine job for Australia but she is employed at a lower rate of pay than are male trade commissioners. I cannot see how this is just. It is not just. We must educate the community to realise that equal payment for work of equal value is the just entitlement of women and that men as well as women should strive for its introduction. At times men are afraid to give women equal pay because they believe they might lose their jobs. This has been proved to be wrong. A firm in Perth which conducts a chain of stores - I will not name it because I do not wish to give it a free advertisement; it is well known to everybody in Western Australia - brought in equal pay for women a little over 12 months ago. A great deal of criticism came from some sources. Some people thought that the stores would not pay their way, but they have shown increased turnover and increased profits. This has resulted not only from the extra work that the women employees are willing to do because they are getting just pay, but also from the recognition of the community generally of what the stores have done in bringing in equal pay for women. I am hoping that other firms will follow the lead. The Commonwealth Government has said through its Ministers in the Senate when we have raised this matter before that it is a matter for the courts. Government supporters say: 'We cannot interfere with the courts', and so on. But the Government could take the lead in respect of its own employees. It has entered the field of wage fixation. A start could be made with the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority, lt could bring about not only equal pay but also equal conditions of employment for women. It could lay down conditions which would have to be fulfilled, as it has done in the past. But the Government does not wish to provide equal pay and equal conditions for women. It takes the easy way out and uses the excuse: 'Leave it to the various tribunals'. If the Government were to introduce equal pay for its female employees it could have a great effect throughout the whole community. 1345 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - That is quite right. I hope the honourable senator has made some calculation of the cost. 1345 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator TANGNEY - 1 am not very good at figures. The honourable senator is better at that than I am. In any case that is no longer a valid argument. But let me relate the experience of New South Wales. Over the years, that State has been introducing equal pay for some of its public servants such as teachers. People said that this was not practicable; that it would put New South Wales at a great disadvantage as compared with the other States. But when the 40-hour week was introduced, it was argued that the economy of New South Wales would ^suffer greatly in comparison with the economies of all the other States. We were told that New South Wales just could not afford the 40-hour week. But what happened? Not only did the economy of New South Wales not suffer but the example set by that State was followed by every other State, and by the Commonwealth itself. I understand that the Queensland Government has made a start towards equal pay for its employees, especially teachers, although I am not quite certain of the position. Senator Morris should be able to put me right on that. Not only has the South Australian Government been granting equal pay to its teachers over the years but last week, or the week before, it brought down legislation for the inclusion of the equal pay provision in the awards of various branches of industry in that State. In Tasmania, the Lower House passed similar legislation, but it was defeated in the Upper House. Otherwise, the principle would have been in operation there also. I regret to say that, of all the States I think Western Australia is the only one that has not made some attempt to deal with the problem. This is not a problem which affects only the women of the community; it affects the community generally. Today, more girls are remaining at school to go on to universities. More are being educated in co-educational establishments. They are being educated in the sciences, the arts and so on. They have to sit for the same examinations and meet the same requirements as the males. Fresh vistas should be open to them because of this education. In my view, this is one of the most important questions of the day. Let me conclude my remarks by referring to a statement made by the late President Kennedy, who was a champion of this cause of equal opportunities and remuneration for women. When speaking on the establishment of the President's Commission on the Status of Women, he said: Women have basic rights which should be respected and fostered as part of our Nation's commitment to human dignity, freedom and democracy. It is appropriate ... to set forth before the world the story of women's progress in a free, democratic society, to review recent accomplishments, and to acknowledge frankly the further steps that must be taken. This is a task for the entire nation. lt is my hope that the Commission's report will indicate what remains to be done to demolish prejudices and outmoded customs which act as barriers to the full partnership of women in our democracy. The Commission will welcome recommendations from all groups on this crucial matter. Progress wilt require the co-operation of the whole community. What he had to say about America is equally applicable to Australia today. ( hope that as a first step towards granting women equal pay for equal work in the Commonwealth Public Service the Government will set up a commission. I hope too that it will not be content with merely establishing a fact finding commission but that the commission's report will be followed by action similar to that taken in America after the late President Kennedy's Commission submitted its report. I might remind the Senate also of what another great feminist, Mrs Eleanor Roosevelt, said. Her reply to those who, although they agreed with the principle of equal pay for equal work, argued that the time was not yet: opportune and counselled waiting until tomorrow was: 'Tomorrow is now.' 1346 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The terms of the motion which is before us say that we should adjourn to a particular time because firstly, of the Government's failure to honour its international obligations in connection with, equal pay for work of equal value. There is absolutely no foundation whatever for any charge that the Commonwealth is dishonouring any international obligations into which it has entered with relation to this matter. I think we should be perfectly clear as to what has been done in this field. The International Labour Organisation had before it a motion which urged that the principle of equal pay for equal work should be adopted by the countries which were members of the Organisation. The Australian delegation voted more than once in favour of the adoption of the proposal that the principle of equal pay for equal work should be accepted. But the motion before the International Labour Organisation did not finish by saying: 'The principle of equal pay for equal work should be adopted'; it went on to say: 'The implementation of that principle in each component country of the Organisation should be according to the wage fixing methods in operation in each country at the time'. There was no suggestion that any government should accept and immediately implement a principle which had been accepted. The position was that the normal processes in operation in a country should be followed to see that equal pay for equal work was introduced in that country. 1346 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - But that was 17 years ago. 1346 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Quite, but thai being the true story of what was accepted there is no basis whatever for a claim that this Government has dishonoured any international obligation. 1346 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator Wilkinson - But this Government has not endorsed it. 1346 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - There was no requirement in the proposal before (he International Labour Organisation that a government should argue a case before the wage fixing tribunal in any country, particularly in a country such as Australia. We voted for the principle. 1346 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator Wilkinson - But the other countries have endorsed it. 1346 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Other countries have voted for it. I do nol know what the honourable senator means by 'endorsed it'. 1 would be just as surprised as I think Senator Tangney would be if wc ever discovered that throughout the length and breadth of Brazil or Indonesia women were paid the same rates as were mcn. I think we all know that in fact that does not happen. 1347 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - There is equal pay in Indonesia. 1347 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I accept the fact that the honourable senator has made that statement, but without wishing to accuse him of knowingly saying something that is incorrect, I will not accept it as an accurate statement. That brings us to the situation of using the usual wage fixing processes in operation in a country to endeavour to attain the principle which the Commonwealth Government voted for and endorsed. What is the usual way in which wage fixing processes in this country occur? 1347 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Has the Minister heard of conciliation? 1347 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Yes. The usual way in which these things occur is by an application to a conciliation or arbitration commissioner. My mind goes back to 1949-50 because, to the best of my knowledge, that was the last occasion on which the trade union movement, which one would normally expect to bring cases before the arbitration court for decision, made an application to the court for equal pay for equal work. I know of no application since made. On that occasion - so long ago, I admit - the court threw out the application on the grounds that the male basic wage in Australia provided for a man, his wife and family, and that if there were a desire to alter that concept, which may or may not bc in operation now but was in operation then, there should be an approach to the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission. No such approaches were made. Perhaps some senator on the Opposition side will be able to tell us why no such approaches were made by the trade union movement as a whole or by any single part of it. There may have been an application by some part of it - 1 do not know of any such application - but certainly there was no application by the Australian Council of Trade Unions. So the normal processes of wage fixing in operation in this country were not availed of by those who might most be interested to seek to avail themselves of them. However, although that did not happen the Government gave quite tangible indications of its general approach to this matter and its adherence to the kind of policies that Senator Tangney quoted as coming from the late President Kennedy. I remind the Senate that we pay to men and women the same margin for skill, that margin being a payment over and above the basic payment which is supposed to provide for a man, his wife and family. 1347 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - But not the base rate. 1347 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The honourable senator is saying something quite different from what 1 am saying. I am pointing out the steps that have been taken to show the Government's acceptance of the principle of equal pay for equal work, and what has been clone to put that acceptance clearly before the people. I cite another instance of this Government's avoidance of discrimination in female employment. The honourable senator's mind will at once go back to the recent occasion when wc removed the long-standing bar on the employment of married women in the Public Service. So two great steps forward have been taken in the situation of females employed by the Commonwealth. I do not think Senator Tangney could claim that anything I have said so far is in any way really subject to dissention or rebuttal. We have all heard the statement: 'All right, certainly in this country there is an arbitration court and there are conciliation commissioners which are the normal tribunals to alter wages, and we admit there have not been any applications to those tribunals to try to vary the female basic wage, but why does not the Commonwealth Government, regardless of the normal wage fixing methods in Australia, take unilateral action through its own Public Service to provide an equal base rate?' There arc organisations in the Commonwealth Public Service culminating in the High Council of Commonwealth Public Service Organisations. 1 know of no application that that body has yet made. 1347 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - lt has tried to sec the Prime Minister. 1347 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I know of no application along those lines that that body has yet made to the tribunal dealing with Public Service salaries. Does the honourable senator know of one? 1347 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - 1 thought I did but perhaps 1 had better check. 1347 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I may be wrong but 1 know of no application to a court. 1348 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - It has made direct application to the Government. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am speaking of an application to the wage fixing machinery normally in operation in Australia. I think the Public Service has its own wage fixing tribunal. I know of no application to it. I mention that in passing. 1348 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - That body is nol uninterested in this problem. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - 1 do not know whether it is interested or uninterested, lt does not appear to have shown much interest in taking action to get for its members equal pay for equal work. That is the only point I am making. 1348 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - It has done that' but not on the level the Minister wants. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Not on the level of the normal wage fixing machinery in a country, which is the method the ILO has laid down to be used. 1348 KBC 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator Willesee - The court has two fields, conciliation and arbitration. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Of course. Does the honourable senator know of any application to the conciliation part of it? I do not. Does he know of any application to the arbitration part of it? I do not. I am merely seeking to make the point, which 1 think the interjections tend to underline, that although members of the High Council have said that they would like equal pay for equal work, no action to that end has been taken through the processes through which action is normally taken by unions and councils. I state that by the way. It has been suggested that in spite of that lack of action the Commonwealth should itself unilaterally make a decision in regard to its own employees. I do not draw conclusions from this point at this moment, but I suggest that honourable senators might turn their minds to whether it is not true that action in respect of the Commonwealth Public Service would have far wider effects than the smaller action that has been taken by State governments such as the New South Wales Government in respect of limited parts of their public services. Would not such action have a very strong effect on all the State governments which have partly- 1348 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - It would be wonderful. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - That is what the honourable senator wants, is it not? 1348 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - Yes. 1348 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Would it not go beyond that and have a very great effect, naturally enough, on the whole of the private sector? That is exactly what Senator Tangney says she wants. But would it not have such a very great economic effect on this country - on its internal and external operations - that this matter should be the subject of proper consideration by the highest arbitration tribunal which considers the economic effects on Australia whenever it is hearing an application for increased wages? What is being asked for here is not just for the Commonwealth Government to take some small action concerning only a few people in its own employ. What is being asked for is that the Commonwealth Government should bypass the constituted methods of fixing wages in the light of their economic effect on the country. That is a factor that the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission would take into account, as I think all honourable senators will agree, when considering something which is really not a small matter but one of the greatest concern to the Australian economy generally and consequently to Australian employment prospects generally. I have said that I am not drawing conclusions on that point. I am not saying what the economic effects would be; how far we could afford to go; or what steps, if taken, would have an effect-. I am merely saying that, whatever way we look at this matter, the results for Australia's external trade and internal employment would be great, and that therefore this is a proper subject for examination by the Arbitration Commission, to which we refer such matters in all other areas and to which the trade unions refer such matters. We have very largely taken these matters out of politics and left the Arbitration Commission to make its economic judgments on the cases of the protagonists before it. That is something which needs to be very carefully borne in mind when it is suggested that some comparatively light-hearted action should be taken- 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - We do not suggest light-hearted action. 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - . . . when it is suggested that action should be taken without a full realisation of the immense responsibilities involved. I believe that the Treasurer (Mr McMahon), when he was Minister for Labour and National Service, stated on behalf of the Government that if a case such as this were brought before the Arbitration Commission by the Australian Council of Trade Unions or some other responsible body the Commonwealth Government would not oppose it in principle. So what is there to prevent the proper utilisation of the wage fixing machinery by the people who are so interested - and properly interested - in this matter? In doing that they would be acting in accordance with the accords that were signed and supported at the International Labour Organisation conferences in Geneva. Those accords state that the implementation of the principle to which we agreed should be carried out in that way in Australia. I do not know what the wage fixing methods applicable in other countries are. But, whatever they are, they are the ones that should be used in the respective countries. 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - We want the Commonwealth Government to take the initiative. 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I think I have dealt with that point a little. What the honourable senator is really asking the Government to do is to bypass the arbitration machinery on a matter that has immense and far reaching economic consequences. Such action could be initiated by either the ACTU or a particular union to which some honourable senators opposite belong. I do not know the unions to which they belong, but I am sure that some of them belong to some unions. Why is not action initiated in that way? 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - Some unions have taken action. Barmen and barmaids receive equal pay in Western Australia. Women working in timber mills also receive it now. 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - That would be the result of action taken before the State conciliation commission. But what we are talking about has Australia-wide application. I speak subject to correction, but I believe that at long last an application for equal pay is now before an Australian wage fixing tribunal. I believe that the Bank Officials Association now has such an application before the Arbitration Commission. I suppose that the decision in that case will have considerable influence on decisions of the Commission in respect of related industries. 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - What about the journalists and employees of radio stations? 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Have they an application before a tribunal? 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - They already receive equal pay, do they not? 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am talking about an application that is before the Arbitration Commission at the moment. No doubt the decision on the bank officers' application will have a very considerable effect. If it goes the way the union would like it to go, it should be an encouragement to other employee organisations to apply to have it extended. If it is true that such applications are being made and that some of them are now before the Arbitration Commission - the proper wage fixing machinery - does that not show that this is the proper way and the traditional way for a matter of this kind to be dealt with in Australia? 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - What about the professional officers in the Minister's Department? 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Have they an application before a tribunal? 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - To what tribunal can they go? 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Is the honourable senator referring to professional officers in the Commonwealth Public Service? 1349 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - Yes. 1349 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Is there not a tribunal to which public servants can apply? I believe that there is a Public Service conciliation and arbitration commission. My nomenclature may not be accurate, but undoubtedly there is a tribunal to which professional officers and other public servants can apply for wage variations. If they have not applied for equal pay for equal work, why have they not done so? If they have a case before the tribunal now, then let us leave it to the tribunal and do not let us suggest that we, as members of the Parliament, should take such a far reaching decision, unless honourable senators opposite wish to adopt an attitude which I would not adopt although I understand some of the arguments for it. I refer to the view that we should not have arbitration in Australia because we are taking away from the Parliament and giving to an arbitration tribunal the power to make decisions of great economic moment affecting wage levels and employment and economic matters generally. As I said, I would not adopt that attitude, but it is the only basis on which a proper case could be made out for abandoning the normal wage fixing methods. Let me sum up. There oan be no proper or true accusation of failure to honour international agreements because, whilst we have supported and still support the principle, we have not refused to do anything that we undertook to do. It can be claimed that the Government should take the administrative steps suggested in the second part of the matter of urgency towards providing equal pay for equal work. But I do not think that claim can be sustained in view of the arguments that I have put forward on the immense and far reaching economic effect - something that traditionally is dealt with by our wage fixing machinery, which is still available to deal with it and which has had some cases along these lines brought before it - and in view of the fact that a senior spokesman for the Government has said that an application along these lines would not be opposed in principle. In support of that statement, I point out that in fact the Government has voted for this in principle at conferences of the International Labour Organisation, and that in practice the Government has removed the discrimination of the marriage bar against women and is paying equal pay for equal work in respect of the margin for skill component of wages in the Commonwealth Public Service. 1350 K6R Victoria 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - The Senate is discussing a matter of urgency raised by Senator Tangney. This is an extremely important matter. The honourable senator has referred to the Government's failure to honour its international obligations and to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for men and women for work of equal value. It is obvious from the speech of the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) that the terms of the motion have touched the Government on the raw. What is involved is a double accusation, firstly that the Government has failed to honour its international obligations in this respect and secondly that it has failed to do what it could have done legislatively and administratively to put into effect the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. The Minister has argued that the Government has not been guilty of a breach of international obligation because Australia has never ratified Convention No. 100 of the International Labour Organisation adopted in June 1951, although Australia did subsequently adopt in principle a recommendation approving the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. I concede that Australia has not ratified the Convention. We have in fact a very poor record in ratification of ILO conventions. We have allowed 16 years to pass without ratifying the Convention. We have not followed the example of about thirty other countries. We have not done what countries like Indonesia, India and Japan have done, namely write into our Constitution the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. We lag behind countries which we and the world generally would regard as less advanced in this respect than Australia. 1350 K1R 0 0 PROWSE, Edgar Senator Prowse - Does the honourable senator suggest that this is the cause or the effect? 1350 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - It may be a bit of both but the fact is that having voted for the principle, as the Leader of the Government has told us Australia did, it seems to me that Australia undertook certain international obligations, You may say that they are not strictly binding in the international law sense, but as a matter of morality, having committed itself to the principle, and this principle being involved in a recommendation adopted by the ILO, after the ILO Convention was adopted Australia's obligation - 1 am quoting the words of the Convention - is to promote and insofar as is consistent with such methods, ensure the application to all workers of the principle of equal pay for men and women workers for work of equal value. We have witnessed a magnificent example of wriggling by the Leader of the Government on this question. He referred ,to the Government's not opposing the principle, whereas in fact the international obligation is not merely not to oppose the principle but to support it and to support it throughout the range of national activity. That means supporting it wherever it is possible for the Government to take action. In short, Senator Tangney's argument is that there is no limitation of the Commonwealth's power to prescribe salaries for its own officers in the Commonwealth Public Service. So the first thing the Government could do without any legal inhibition or restriction is to apply this principle in the Commonwealth- Public Service. It is of no use talking, as Senator Webster did by way of interjection, about the millions of dollars which the application of this principle would cost. The former Prime Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, in answer to a question on 17th May 1962 from the present Leader of the Opposition in another place, Mr Whitlam, referred to the estimated cost of applying the principle in the Commonwealth Public Service and said: The estimated cost of introducing equal remuneration for men and women for work of equal value, that is, of introducing an equal base rule in the case of those females already receiving equal margins, is - approximately £1.3m per annum for female employees of the Commonwealth Government employed under the Public Service Act; and approximately £650,000 per annum for all other civilian female employees of the Commonwealth Government except locally recruited staff employed overseas. So the total cost, as estimated by Sir Robert Menzies in 1962, was a little less than £2m per annum. Since that time 5 years have elapsed and one may take it that the cost now would bc about $5m. This is really what we are asking the Commonwealth Government to face up to. We are met with the argument that the Commonwealth is not opposed. This attitude of non-opposition has been held by the Commonwealth for more than a decade. In 1958 the present Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt), who was then Minister for Labour and National Service, said that the Commonwealth did not oppose the principle of equal remuneration for men and women for work of equal value, but where have we ever had from this Government or any responsible spokesman for it any indication that it is prepared to support the principle? There is all the difference in the world between non-opposition and support. Senator Gorton said that the Treasurer (Mr McMahon) at some time - I do not recall this having been said - indicated that if an application were made to the industrial tribunals the Commonwealth would not oppose it. What does non-opposition mean in these tribunals? It simply means staying neutral, lt does not mean support. 1 invite any honourable senator on the Government side who rises to take part in the debate to say whether the Commonwealth will support such an application before the industrial tribunals. If the Government is not prepared to go that far it is not doing what it should do as a matter of obligation, legal and moral, because we arc committed to the principle. The Government is not doing what it should as a matter of obligation to promote the principle and to ensure that it is adopted. I do not think any honourable senator opposite can gainsay that proposition. This is more than an industrial matter. It is easy to look at this question as though it were simply an industrial question. Something much more is involved than a mere industrial question. In Victoria 55 years ago the late Sir Leo Cussen, a judge of the Supreme Court, hearing an appeal from a wages board dealing with an application for equal pay said: This is a matter of such profound political, social and economic importance that it is a matter tor the legislature. Mark you, that was in 1912, but he might have been saying it today. In 1967 in Victoria the teachers' tribunal, which has been asked in recent times to adjudicate on the subject of equal pay - Victoria and Western Australia are the two States in which the principle of equal pay for women teachers has nol been adopted - has said that this matter is much too important to be decided by an industrial tribunal; it is a matter of economic and social policy that has to be decided by the legislature. What is involved here is not simply an industrial question; it is a matter in which Australia is committed internationally to a social judgment about the place of women in society. That is what the argument is really all about. We cannot talk about equality of status for women where we have no equality of remuneration. To the extent to which the Commonwealth has recently removed barriers to married women working in the Commonwealth Public Service, that move is welcome. It should have happened ages ago. But the equality is incomplete because women are not guaranteed equal pay for work of equal value in the Commonwealth Public Service. One would not expect a woman member of Parliament, whether in this Parliament or in any other, to accept remuneration at less than the rate which is given for other members of Parliament because by so doing she would be accepting a second class status. This is the crux of the matter. It is the kernel of the question in the view we put. 1352 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - But the argument would be equally true that the honourable senator should be down-graded in his rate of remuneration because the work he does is not equal in value to the work that Senator Tangney does. 1352 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I do not think that is really a serious argument. 1352 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - It is a serious argument. 1352 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - In the way it has been put I do not regard it as such. If we had to satisfy some tribunal as to what the proper remuneration for members of Parliament was I cannot imagine that Senator Cormack or any other honourable senator would want to argue that there should be some difference in salary between female and male members of the legislature. Whether the remuneration is too high or too low I do not know, but certainly there should not be any discrimination between the sexes. As we see it, this is the whole point of the argument. The Commonwealth has not done what it could have done. It should be setting the lead. It should be saying: 'We can grant this equality to our own officers. We do not have to have a hearing before the Arbitrator. We are perfectly able to make the big judgment that is required on a principle which is so important and we can apply it in areas where we have the say.' It is only where there is a disagreement between employer and employee about conditions of employment that the arbitral process is invoked. If agreement can be reached between employer and employee - this has often happened - there is no need for an, arbitrator. As to the general case that might be brought in one industry or in industry generally, this is a matter on which the unions would make up their minds as to how they apply to the industrial tribunals. But so far there has been no indication from the Commonwealth that it will support the argument before the industrial tribunal. All the rest of it is mere talk. It is only talk to speak in the grandiose language, in the exquisite language which conceals meaning, that we get on these questions. It is so much talk to speak about non-opposition. The positive obligation is to take positive steps to promote the principle. We cannot see why it is not possible for the Commonwealth to do this. It can do it and in so doing it will be applying a principle which already has world wide acceptance and which is in the Declaration of Human Rights. It was adopted in express words in the Treaty of Rome constituting the European Economic Community. All over the world this principle is coming to be regarded as important because it is part of the emancipation of peoples and part of the emancipation of underprivileged groups within each separate country. In some countries it may be people of a subject race; in some countries it is people of a subject sex. We believe in this principle. We would deem it extremely important for a country like Australia which, in many respects, is entitled to claim that it is among the most advanced countries in the world, although it is not one of the largest. We believe that in our own country it is high time the principle was not only talked about but acted upon. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman - Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1352 KBW Tasmania 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - This is obviously the political season. Here we are in the Senate today discussing what is said to be a matter of urgency. The question of equal pay for work of equal value, irrespective of the sex of the worker, has been discussed in this chamber on many occasions in the last 10 years. The Parliament is at present hard pressed to get sufficient time in which to examine the huge Budget of expenditure and the Estimates, yet for some political purpose the Australian Labor Party has introduced for discussion a matter of urgency. I wish to protest against the employment of this procedure for what is purely a propagandist purpose. I want to say also that I regard this drum that is being beaten by the Labor Party as purely a propagandist drum. Nobody today holding responsible office in the trade unions, the Parliaments or commerce would deny that work of equal value is entitled to equal remuneration. 1353 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Except this Government. 1353 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The honourable senator interjects a comment which is unintelligible to me, not only because of what was said but because I did not hear it dearly. 1353 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - The honourable senator said that no one would deny it and I am saying that this Government would do so. 1353 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I wanted to offer a purely charitable reason for not understanding the honourable senator's interjection. Passing from that, it is said in this motion that the Senate should adjourn because of the Government's failure to honour its international obligations. The Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) has dealt with this matter, but to put the record straight I quote the terms of convention No. 100 of the International Labour Organisation conventions which reads: Bach member shall by means appropriate to the methods in operation for determining rates of remuneration promote and, in so far as consistent with such methods, ensure the application to all workers of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value. The terms of that ILO convention recognise that in the member countries there are particular methods by which industrial changes are achieved. The obligation of members who signed the convention is to promote this principle by means appropriate to the methods in operation for determining rates of remuneration. It is quite clear that in the Commonwealth sphere the predominant function of the Federal Parliament in industrial matters is confined to legislating for arbitration and conciliation. lt is mere distortion of an irresponsible kind to suggest that the Common wealth Parliament has a direct power to implement this principle by legislation. The ILO convention recognises the propriety of adhering to the appropriate means that the country has constituted to alter rates of remuneration in industry. The Opposition says that the Government has failed to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for men and women for work of equal value. The main suggestion seems to be that the Commonwealth should introduce this principle blandly in the Public Service. I shall examine that suggestion. The Commonwealth has shown its recognition of the rights of women by taking a very forward step within the last 12 months to remove all the handicaps suffered by married women in relation to employment in our Public Service. We took great care to give to married women by legislative means full status and remuneration in the Public Service. We made provision for the vicissitudes of their sex. The base rate in the Public Service is fixed according to the position and margins are applicable to those positions whether they are held by men or women. 1 suggest that it is irresponsible - indeed it borders on the ridiculous - to suggest that the Federal Government and the Federal Parliament should apply to members of the Public Service a principle of such wide implication as that contained in the proposal that we are discussing. In the course of my speech I shall show that the number of Public Service personnel is altogether too great and that the growth should be arrested. In my opinion it would be quite inappropriate for the Federal Parliament to select the Public Service as the privileged section of workers in Australia to whom this principle should apply. The implications of this principle are so wide, not merely in the industrial field but also in the social field, that it would be quite wrong to apply it to the Public Service. It is said that members of the Australian Labor Party are propagandists for removing all discrimination between the sexes. We have had to consider the conjugal state of workers. Married, workers were found to be at a disadvantage when we introduced child endowment. As 1 have pointed out, the restriction on the employment of married women in tha Public Service was remedied last year.. So that we may understand the degree to which females are employed in the work force, I propose to refer to some figures which are applicable to June 1961. They are the latest that I have available. They show that females represented 25.1% of the total Australian work force and that males represented 74.9%. The females were classified into the following categories: There are some other interesting details that I shall give. I refer to those industries in which the percentage of the female work force is above 20%. They are as follows: Manufacturing industries, 23.9%; commercial industries, 22.2%; and public authority and professional, 24.7%. I suggest to the Parliament that the powers that the Federal Parliament has conferred upon the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission show that it is recognised that the Commission has the chief and predominant responsibility for moulding the development of industrial conditions - so much so that in the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Act the following matter was specifically included in the definition of the term 'industrial matters': any claim that the same wage shall be paid to persons of either sex performing the same work or producing the same return of profit or value to their employer. This Parliament recognised that one of the special matters within the jurisdiction and authority of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission was the determination of whether or not this principle should apply. In the national wage case of 1967, the Commission, in deciding to substitute for the basic wage plus a margin the concept of a total wage, had this to say about the significance of that principle in relation to the female wage: Although we refer to the total wage, there will for the present be a different total wage for males and females and a number of total wages for many classifications. These result from existing basic wage differentials and from the quite complex history of basic wages, particularly those for females, starting many years ago from a concept of differing needs and responsibilities of men and women. Both basic wages have over the years been adjusted in a variety of ways. We are conscious of these apparent anomalies, but consider it is not practicable to attempt to deal with either at this time. The community is faced with economic industrial and social challenges arising from the history of female wage fixation. Our adoption of the concept of a total wage has allowed us to take an important step forward in regard to female wages. We have on this occasion deliberately awarded the same increase to adult females and adult males. The recent Clothing Trades decision affirmed the concept of equal margins for adult males and females doing equal work. The extension of that concept to the total wage would involve economic and industrial sequels and calls for thorough investigation and debate in which a policy of gradual implementation could be considered. The process is in the course of evolution. In my view it would be destructive in the extreme for this Parliament to intervene, especially when it is known to the Labor Party that the trade union movement has not resolved its attitude to this question. As the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) pointed out, a claim for the application of this principle has not been made in an important case or in an important dispute in the federal sphere. To apply this principle as suggested would be a complete intrusion by the Parliament into a matter which is predominantly industrial in nature and which the Arbitration Commission is already developing, as shown by what it stated in the judgment which I have read. In my view it would be mischievous for us to interfere. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman) Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1354 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - Mr Deputy President, I suggest that Senator Wright was wrong when he said that the trade union movement is dodging its obligation to go before the arbitration tribunals in this matter. 1354 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - I did not say that. 1 said that it had not resolved its attitude. 1354 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - Well, it is the same thing. Today we on this side of the Senate are putting to the Government a plea that it do the right thing in this matter. The High Council of Public Service Organisations and the Australian Council of Salaried and Professional Associations have been saying ever since the Equal Remuneration Convention was adopted in 1951 that there ought to be some move towards its ratification and that this Government should do everything possible to promote it and should act administratively to assent to it. This is what the urgency motion now before the Senate proposes. This is not a political move by any means. As honourable senators will probably remember, this matter has been the subject of an annual campaign both by overall workers and white collar workers for more than 10 years. Over that time, they have been continually urging the Commonwealth Government to apply the principle of equal pay to its own employees. If the Government rests on the difficulty of getting employers within the States that are constituent members of the Australian Federation to agree - a difficulty that it has often mentioned - let it at least promote equal pay among its own employees. The cost would be very small, as Senator Cohen has pointed out. The Government could have adopted equal remuneration for its own employees years ago and in addition it could have promoted a meeting of the State Premiers to consider this matter. In recent years, State legislatures, including that of my own State, have adopted legislation providing for equal pay for equal work because they know that this question, in its proper context, cannot be resolved before the arbitration tribunals. Before those tribunals, Conservative governments and conservative employers, within the legal framework, put arguments designed to impede any move for the adoption of equal pay, just as they resist all proposals for increases in wage levels. Since the adoption of the Equal Remuneration Convention by the International Labour Organisation, equal pay for equal work has been adopted in many industries. Many women are now in exactly the same position as men when they do the same work. In the various professions, many more women have been able to assume very high positions that formerly were exclusive to men and have shown that they are able to do the work equally well. This is the current trend in Australia, and this trend is even stronger overseas. But this Government still rests on the old position that it adopted in 1962. 1355 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - How would the honourable senator make up for the disadvantage to the married man? 1355 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - I have only 10 minutes available and I intend to discuss this matter in the way that suits me. 1355 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - That is the answer of the old soap box orator. 1355 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - No, it is not. Australia is a member of the International Labour Organisation. This Government and the governments of other member countries send representatives to meetings of the Organisation and also promote the attendance of worker and employer delegates. The meetings of the Organisation decide on recommendations and conventions that are designed to raise social standards throughout the world and to prevent the great conflict between the poor nations and the rich ones. This Government, since it takes part in formulating such recommendations and conventions, and thereby in raising standards, ought to make sure that in Australia it takes proper steps to give effect to the recommendations and conventions of the Organisation. This is the test: What has it done to promote the principle of equal pay? I should like the Government ro answer that question. I have spoken on this matter in the Senate since 1962. The position that the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) has taken up today is the same one that was adopted in 1962 by the present Treasurer (Mr McMahon), who was then Minister for Labour and National Service. Mr McMahon on that occasion used the same sort of argument as Senator Wright has put today. He stated that the Government is not obliged to do any more than it is doing to implement the Convention. He said that once it has been adopted and we have ratified it, we must use the means appropriate within our own country to implement it. The appropriate means within the Australian community, industrially, do not depend only on court processes and conciliation and bargaining. We can show that in the whole gamut of industrial relations more and more female workers throughout the community are obtaining not just the margin awarded to male workers but the total wage paid to male workers. Each year, when we have raised this matter, the proposition that has been put to us in reply has been: 'Why does not the trade union movement go before the arbitration tribunals?' The answer is short, and I have already given it to the Senate. We know the attitude of this Government and therefore it is of no use for us to go before the arbitration tribunals. Regularly, the Government has warned the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission against wage increases. When we have asked Ministers in this chamber to state whether, before the Commission, the Government would support the principle of equal pay, they have never answered: Yes. it will'. Let the Leader of the Government tell us today that this Government will support this principle as some of the Stale governments are doing. If we received that response, it might be worth while for ACSPA, the High Council of Public Service Organisations, white collar workers in general and the trade union movement as a whole to take a different attitude, for it would be possible then to promote some process in the arbitration tribunals. I put it to the Senate this afternoon that the Government is merely shelving its responsibilities. It has taken no steps to promote the application of the principle of equal pay within the States. It has merely stood back and watched some State governments applying this principle to their own workers and dealing with all the difficulties of formulating the necessary legislation. This Government could do likewise if it wished to help. The only thing that it has ever done in response to the campaign by the trade union movement over the last 10 years has been to establish a Women's Section in the Department of Labour and National Service. It has refused even to accede to requests made by its own supporters. On a number of occasions, Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood has asked the Government to establish a women's bureau of the kind that operates in the United States of America, but the Government has refused. As recently as last year, it has reaffirmed that its attitude is that announced in 1962 by the former Minister for Labour and National Service. On that occasion, Mr McMahon said: A recommendation of the ILO carries no more legal obligation than its name implies. The Convention is not in force in Australia as it has not be. n ratified by the Commonwealth. 1 say that any government that supports the principles of an international organisation, as we support the International Labour Organisation, should promote the recommendations and conventions thai have been adopted by that Organisation. This applies to employer delegates as well as to representatives of the Government. In 1964, the Australian Government supported an ILO resolution which was carried by 265 votes to 23 and part of which was in these terms: Urgently appeals to member States to take all positive steps: To ratify and implement fully the Equal Remuneration Convention 1951, and Discrimination (Employment and Occupation) Convention 1958; and To implement in respect of girls and women the provisions of the Vocational Training Recommendation 1962. We on this side of the Senate cannot be truthfully accused of playing politics. We are bringing before the Parliament the urgent need for this Government to honour its obligation to do something to promote the adoption of the principle of equal pay for equal work. Later I shall return to the statement made by Mr McMahon in 1962, which is the basis of the Government's present approach to this question. As recently as November of last year, in answer to a question asked by Senator Hendrickson, Senator Gorton talked about the means appropriate to the promotion of equal pay. I have pointed out very clearly, I suggest, that the Government has an obligation to promote the adoption ot the principle of equal pay and similar measures. It may find difficulty with certain State governments in getting agreement, as it suggests, but it could at least bring the State Premiers together to discuss the matter. Why should the Government always rest on the subterfuge - and it is only a subterfuge - of saying: 'Why do the unions not go before the arbitration tribunals?' We also hear from honourable senators on the Government side the sort of response that we heard from Senator Cormack today. Mr McMahon adopted much the same approach when he talked about reducing the male rate. In 1962, speaking of the instruments of the ILO, he said: It is to be noted of the instruments, first, that they are silent about the level at which equality is to be established: They would be satisfied by a reduction of the male rate to the female or by bringing the two together at some intermediate point; they would be equally satisfied by raising the female rate to the male. What sort of backward nonsense is this, in a world in which this Government is urging more females to go into industry? We find Ministers on important occasions urging women to enter the work force and giving figures lo show the increase of the employment of females in industry. But they refuse to give women wage justice. We now have a situation in which women are working beside men, doing exactly the same work and receiving less pay. This is wrong. Senator Wright has talked about figures. Mr McMahon has been before meetings of employers and advocated that they should adjust their rosters and do everything else that they could do to increase the number of women employed in industry. The percentage of women entering industry is becoming greater. The intake is accelerating. Although in the current year the number of civilian employees received into the work force has in fact dropped and is the lowest intake since 1962, the increase in the intake of female workers is marked. I should like to refer to a document entitled Women in the Work Force', issued by the Department of Labour and National Service in July 1967. The Department gives figures to show the effect of the Government's efforts to persuade employers to make adjustments in order to bring more females into industry. At page 30 fi the document the Department states: Females constituted nearly 40% of the increase in the civilian work force between 1954 and 1966. In the same period the female work force increased at a higher average annual rate than the male in both private and government sectors. The higher rate of female increase is particularly noticeable since 1961. A table on page 7 of the document shows that between 1947 and 1961 the total population increased by 38.6% and the work force increased by 32.2%. The increase in the female population was 37.4% but the increase in the female work force was 47.7%. Here we see evidence of the situation that I have mentioned previously. Various Ministers have gone to meetings of employers and meetings of women and urged that there be more attraction within industry for women workers. We know that every conference of the International Labour Organisation is for the purpose of raising standards of workers. The Government is represented and it takes along representatives of employers and employees, who take part in the deliberations. If the Government faces difficulty in implementing ILO recommendations because of CommonwealthState relations, it can easily bring about consultations with State Premiers to see whether this will assist. I ask the Government to point out where it has taken such action in all these years. Nothing has been done to give effect to this principle. Our action in bringing forward this matter is on behalf of all people in industry. Recently the Australian Council of Trade Unions passed a resolution in this connection. This proposition has been put to the Government regularly by deputations and by other means for many years: We call on the Commonwealth Government to apply the principle of equal pay to women employees in all Commonwealth Government instrumentalities and services and stress that further representations be made to the Commonwealth Government for the establishment of an Australian Commission on the Status of Women similar to that of the USA and for the setting up of a Women's Bureau within the Department of Labour and National Service. I conclude by pointing out that Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood herself asked the Government to do this in recent years but the Government refused, saying that the United States Commission on the Status of Women was too wide and there was no need for such an organisation in Australia. All that we have is a fairly limited section of the Department of Labour and National Service which deals only with basic employment questions and not with wider issues, although the Government is encouraging a greater intake of females into the work force at lower rates of pay. The Government is accepting a lower standard for females generally in industry when it can take a part in promoting equal pay for women who do the same work as men. 1357 JQQ Victoria 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - J find myself in agreement with Senator Wright when he claims that these matters of urgency, of which this is the third in about 5 or 6 sitting days, indicate that the Opposition is more concerned with establishing means by which it can assert clements of political propaganda, because a Senate election is around the corner. That is fair comment; I do not think any objection can be taken to it. There is a vast backlog of parliamentary business which it is necessary to get through prior to the lifting of the Senate for the election. I do not quite see how it will be got through. The services of the community have to be sustained by the passing of the Estimates and the Appropriation Bills. Yet in the last 5 or 6 sitting days we have had these matters brought into the Senate on the ground that they are matters of extreme urgency. 1 will not argue that perhaps some are not matters of urgency that require attention but there have been some 6 or 7 weeks in which these matters could have been brought to the attention of the Senate. They are not any more urgent today than they were 6 weeks ago. I think it is quite clear, as Senator Wright claims, that this is an electioneering device. However, having said that, I would like to pay a compliment to Senator Tangney for speaking out, as she has done so often, on behalf of her sex in relation to equality of pay for work of equal value. 1 am sorry that as we get older we do not succeed in attaining that which we set out to do. I refute Senator Bishop's claim that it is a stupid argument to say that equal pay between the sexes must be on the basis which 1 shall make clear. I say without any cynicism at all that if payment were on the basis of results and competence Senator Tangney would be entitled to higher pay than some other members of the Parliament. She introduced into this debate a draft resolution which is at the present moment being trundled through the General Assembly of the United Nations. By interjection I asked her to read out the names of the nations that were sponsoring the draft resolution. The interesting thing is that we find that if is sponsored by the usual collection of ragbag nations inside which there is no device, as far as I have been able to discover, by which the principles of the United Nations and the International Labour Organisation have been in any way put into effect. I have been to Indonesia, Algeria, Gabon and some other African nations, and I have never seen in those nations any attempt to apply equal pay for work of equal value. In fact, the delegates of those nations are attempting to create inside the United Nations means by which they can put pressure on their own domestic political parties or governments. The fact is that the nations that have abstained from acceding to this draft treaty or having very much to do with it are nations that have in their own domestic jurisdictions the means of solving the problem as to whether or not the conventions of the International Labour Oragnisation should be put into effect. 1358 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator Poyser - Which are the abstaining ones? 1358 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - The ones that have not acceded or have nol approved the draft resolution. Senator Tangney read out their names. I cannot recollect them all. Australia is one. The United Kingdom is another. 1358 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - And the United States. 1358 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - The United States is a third. One cannot use what is happening inside the United Nations, for example, as an argument to sustain the raising in the Senate this afternoon as a matter of urgency the proposal that legislation should be introduced and administrative action taken to establish equal pay for work of equal value, which is the formula of the International Labour Organisation. Senator Wright also said that we have in this country a system by which wage problems can be solved. The issue that is quite clearly demonstrated in the Senate this afternoon is the means by which equal pay for work of equal value should be established in Australia. Because we have an arbitration system Government supporters do not accept the proposition contained in the matter of urgency raised by the Opposition. I do not think 1 am going outside . the bounds of forecasting when I say that not one honourable senator on this side of the chamber does not accept the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. I do not think I am committing any honourable senator on this side when I say that in private discussions as members of Parliament in the corridors and in the party rooms - it is certainly true so far as I am concerned - there is no opposition to the concept of equal pay for work of equal value. We on this side of the chamber are not reactionaries. I am arguing that I do not believe that the Commonwealth Parliament should bc turned into an economic commission to decide this matter. That would be highly dangerous. I do not believe that the Parliament is capable of assessing all the problems involved in this proposition. Indeed, governments of various hues in the past have decided that the method to solve these problems is to create an industrial and arbitral structure which should be charged with the responsibility of determining wage matters. 1358 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - We pay big salaries to the people who examine these matters. 1358 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - That is so. We pay judges to decide these matters. 1359 KV9 0 0 MORRIS, Kenneth Senator Morris - That is the key to the matter. 1359 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - That is the key to the whole problem. The dilemma of honourable senators opposite at present is that they rely upon the industrial strength of the unions as part of the organisational capacity of the Australian Labor Party. From the unions they draw a great deal of their party funds and their organisational support for election campaigns. They are aware of this situation. They are also aware that the areas from which they draw their financial, industrial and organisational strength for election campaigns do not contain the people who will support the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. Honourable senators opposite, knowing that their own supporters do not or will not accept this principle, now seek to use the device of legislative practice inside the Parliament to achieve what they cannot get from their own supporters. I think this was clearly demonstrated by Mr Hawke, advocate for the Australian Council of Trade Unions before the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in the national wage case which has only recently concluded. Mr Hawke based his arguments in that case on the maintenance of the basic wage, and the basic wage is based upon the concept of needs according to an old formula that has been used in arbitration tribunals. The basic wage has not been based in the past on the concept of equal pay for work of equal value. In this urgent situation the distinguished and learned advocate of the trade unions, briefed by them to appear before the Arbitration Commission, did not at any stage so far as I have been able to discover raise the thesis of the International Labour Office that there should be equal pay for work of equal value. Why is it not possible for any union to apply to the Arbitration Commission to have this principle embedded in the wage structure of the country? The Arbitration Commission in its judgment which changed the basic wage concept to a total wage concept, as mentioned by Senator Wright, acknowledged that there is a growing understanding and climate of acceptance in Australia for equal pay for work of equal value. The Commission acknowledged the principle in part in the national wage case by giving the same increase of $1 a head in the total wage decision to both male and female workers. I look forward to the day when equality will be achieved, because I believe that one of the results to flow from it will be increased efficiency in Australian industry. That result will come because, I hope, a great number of women will enter the work force who are infinitely more competent to do some of the available work than are some of the males who are performing that work at present. I had an interesting experience recently in Sydney as Chairman of a Senate select committee. I was standing with my colleagues, one of whom was Senator Branson, on a Scandia ship. We were watching a man with a black box hanging from his shoulder organising the cranes of the ship to unload pre-slung cargo from the bottom of a hold. The thought crossed my mind that that position presented an ideal opportunity for the employment of a woman at high rates of pay. I am quite sure that the job would have been done much more efficiently by a woman than it was done by the man I observed. That is the key to the problem. Not one honourable senator opposite who has a trade union background will go to his union and advocate, not equal pay for work of equal value, but that there should be opportunities inside the union for women. 1359 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop - Of course there are opportunities. 1359 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - No, there are not. The truth is that in great areas of the trade union movement in Australia the union members are fighting tooth and nail to do all they possibly can to prevent the entry of women to the work force. 1359 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator Laught - What about the situation at Broken Hill? 1359 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator CORMACK - The situation at Broken Hill is as good an illustration as any. I say that we would be totally recreant if we were to throw overboard the juridical system we have evolved by trial and error over the last 50 or 60 years and were to embark into an economic area by making ad hoc decisions in this Parliament as to what should be done. That juridical system is working very well. The only matter at issue between the Opposition and the Government is the method by which equal pay for work of equal value is to bc effected. The responsibility bears upon honourable senators opposite and members of the Opposition in another place to see that the organisations from which they spring accept their share of the responsibility to achieve in Australia the highly desirable objective of equal pay for work of equal value. 1360 KTA New South Wales 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - Senator Tangney has drawn to the attention of the Senate and therefore to the attention of the Australian people the Government's failure to honour its international obligation to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for mcn and women for work of equal value. Despite all the reasons that have been enunciated this afternoon by Government spokesmen, the simple fact of the matter is that the Government has done nothing to honour its international obligation to effect equal pay for work of equal value. It has taken no legislative or administrative steps towards achieving that end. Therefore it is to be condemned by the Australian people. Women members of the Commonwealth Public Service, who are employed by the Government through its own instrumentality - the Commonwealth Public Service Board - are being discriminated against because of the failure to implement the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. They are regarded as second rate citizens by comparison with their male counterparts in the Commonwealth Public Service. This afternoon Government supporters have done a lot of tongue-in-cheek talking on this matter. The Government has had 16 years in which to act positively to honour its international undertaking or obligation, but it constantly refuses to do anything in that direction. It continues to adopt the attitude, as illustrated by its spokesmen this afternoon, that wage determinations are matters for the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission. It takes that attitude not because it lacks legislative power but simply because of its policy. The Government's case today, as it has been since 1951 when the International Labour Organisation Convention No. 100 and Recommendation No. 90 were signed, is that it is up to the Australian Council of Trade Unions and up to the trade union movement to make appli cation to the arbitration authorities for recognition of this principle. It has been said over and over again by Government spokesmen that they would not oppose such an application if it were made. I think this was repeated today by Senator Gorton but, as Senator Cohen quite rightly asked: Would the Government be prepared to support such an application? Why, as recently as early this year, when addressing a luncheon of the Chamber of Manufactures in Melbourne on the subject of (he failure of the Australian Government to support a request for an increase in the basic wage the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) said that the Government wanted to see comparative wage stability this year. But let me come back to the international recommendations. What was the International Labour Organisation recommendation to which this Government was a party? It was ILO Recommendation No. 90 of 1951 which said: Appropriate action should be taken after consulting with the workers' organisations concerned, or, where such organisations did not exist, with the workers concerned To ensure the application of the principles of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value to all employees of central government departments or agencies; and to encourage the application of the principle to employees of Slate, provincial or local government departments or agencies where these have jurisdiction over rates of remuneration. That principle, which was agreed to by the Menzies. Government in 1951, was clear and simple. It did not say anything about asking the trade union movements of the various countries to request industrial tribunals to agree to the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. It merely said that appropriate action should be taken, after consulting with the workers' organisations concerned. Now we find that, after having ratified the agreement, every time the Government places an advertisement in the 'Sydney Morning Herald', or any other large metropolitan daily, calling for the filling of vacancies, two rates of pay are advertised, one for females and another for males. In the last Commonwealth of Australia Gazette* of 5th October 1967 at page 5646, the situation with relation to salaries and general conditions is set out in this way: The annual rates of salary are increased as follows, unless otherwise indicated in Public Service Board Circular No. 1967/24: Adult Males . . Increase of $157 per annum Adult Females . . Increase of $131 per annum There we see a difference of some$26 per annum in the rates of increase granted to males as compared with females. The same Gazette' also contains this statement: Except for positions exclusively for females, i.e. positions with female designations and those positions which include '(Female)' in the title, the nominal salary range is reduced by $402 when occupied by a female aged 21 years or over or by a junior female where no junior rates are prescribed for the position. So the Commonwealth Government does discriminate to the extent of about $8 a week between the rates paid to male workers and those paid to female workers for performing work which is of the same value. I suggest that in this modern day and age, in this year 1967, bearing in mind that the Government was a party to an International Convention in 1951, it is a scandal that this situation is tolerated. Incidentally, speaking of the employment of women in the Commonwealth Public Service, it is very interesting to note a reply that was given to a question asked by me on 27th September 1966. The question was: How many officers of the Commonwealth Public Service are employed in the First and Second Divisions of the Service? How many of such officers are females? The then Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Henty, informed me that the Public Service Board had stated that as at 30th June 1966 officers in the First Division of the Commonwealth Public Service numbered twenty-six and that the number in the Second Division was 589. He added that of this latter number a mere two were female officers. While this discrimination exists in 1967, while we have this difference of $8 a week between the rates of pay for male and female workers is it any wonder, that women in the Public Service cannot climb to the higher eschelons? But I suppose there is something from which direct employees of this Government can take hope. They have been struggling for proper recognition of their just rights for some 17 long years since the International Labour Organisation's recommendation was agreed to by this Government. But it took women in the United States of America 18 years to achieve success. The first Federal Equal Pay Bill for women was introduced in the Congress in 1945. After 18 years of effort by members of Congress, successive Administrations, labour unions, women's groups and others who were interested in the reform, the Federal Equal Pay Act of 1963 finally was enacted. In the 'AFL-CIO News', the American Federation of Labour Journal, of 25th May 1963, under the heading: 'Equal Pay Bill Passes Congress' this statement appeared: The Labor backed Equal Pay for Women Bill moved through both the House and the Senate in less than a week - after an 18-year campaign for a Federal law to outlaw wage discrimination because of sex. Both the House and the Senate Bills prohibit employers from equalising wages by lowering higher rates for men instead of raising lower wages paid to women. I especially draw the Senate's attention to that in view of the interjection by Senator Cormack, when Senator Cohen was speaking, that arbitration authorities, ratherthan increase the female rate to the male rate, would decrease the male rate to the female rate. The American legislation specifically prohibited the lowering of the higher rates for men instead of raising the lower rates paid for women. The report went on: Equal pay under the legislation would be required for work requiring equal skill, effort and responsibility which is performed under similar working conditions. Wage differentials would be allowed only if based on factors other than sex. But what is the position today? Australia certainly is trailing badly behind the field on this question of equal pay. Since 1951, some 33 countries have ratified the ILO Convention. 1361 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Are they all applying the principle? 1361 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - Thirty-three of them have applied the principle according to a report submitted to the trade union movement by the late Mr Jim Kenny, former Senior Vice-President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions and Secretary of the Labour Council of New South Wales. In addition to ILO Convention No. 100, to which this country was a party, there was ILO Convention No.111 which banned discrimination not only on account of sex but also on account of race or creed. The Australian Government has done nothing about ILO Recommendation No. 90 or ILO Convention No. 100 although admittedly it was not prepared to be a signatory to the Convention. Britain, the United States of America, Canada and New Zealand have granted to their Public Service employees equal pay for work of equal value, but Australia has consistently refused to do anything about this matter for some 17 years despite the fact that it was a signatory to the ILO recommendation of 1951. ls it any wonder that in 1965 - a mere 2 years ago - Dr Clair Isbister, an eminent female medical practitioner, said at the annual speech day of Fort Street Girls High School that Australia is a backward country as far as women are concerned? On all the facts this Government has scorned the employment demands of its female officers. This is National Equal Pay Week and the trade union movement is concerned to see that the discrimination which has existed for far too long is brought to an end. The Government will be taught a very severe lesson at the forthcoming Senate election for hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. 1362 KQQ South Australia 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - I was very interested in Senator McClelland's concluding remarks. As he was speaking the thought crossed my mind: Do the trade unions pay female labour in their own offices the male rate of pay? 1362 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - 1 have known cases where they would not pay overtime. 1362 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - I do not know what the position is. 1362 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator Poyser - In Victoria the answer is Yes. 1362 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - It may be. This is a very interesting question and I hope that the Opposition speakers who are to follow mc in this debate will testify, or attempt to testify, on it. The closing days of a sessional period are not an opportune occasion for the introduction of an urgency motion such as the one now before the Senate. I do not think it can be substantiated. It relates to the Government's failure to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for men and women for work of equal value. The first question to which one should apply his attention is: What are these alleged international obligations? Recommendation No. 90 which was before the 34th session of the International Labour Organisation in 1951 related to equal remuneration for mcn and women workers for work of equal value. This was adopted. The Convention requires member states of ILO - Australia was one of them - to promote and, so far as this is consistent with their existing methods of determining rates of remuneration, to ensure the application to all workers of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women workers for work of equal value. The important words in that Convention are: 'So far as this is consistent with their existing methods of determining rates of remuneration'. On that aspect let me refer to some remarks which were made by the present Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) in 1953 when he was Minister for Labour and National Service. He said: The Commonwealth Government docs not oppose the principle of equal remuneration for men and women for work of equal value. In the view of the Commonwealth, however, it would be undesirable and unsound to propose legislation to the Commonwealth Parliament for the adoption of this principle-- Now come the important words - in advance of a determination to like effect by the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration, which is the supreme arbitral tribunal in Australia. This attitude conforms with that adopted by successive Commonwealth Governments irrespective of Party. That was the principle in 1953 and it is the principle today. Admittedly there is now no such court as the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration but we have a body which works under another name. The principle is that neither the Parliament nor the Executive should beat the gun in this matter when there is a proper arbitral body to determine it. On 5th June this year the decision in the national wage case was promulgated. The Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission made some very sound statements on this question of equal pay for males and females. It said: The community is faced with economic, industrial and social challenges arising from the history of female wage fixation. Our adoption of the concept of a total wage has allowed us to take an important step forward in regard to female wages. We have on this occasion deliberately awarded the same increase to adult females and adult males. The recent Clothing Trades decision affirmed the concept of equal margins for adult males and females doing equal work. The extension of that concept to the total wage would involve economic and industrial sequels and call for thorough investigation and debate in which a policy of gradual implementation could be considered. I emphasise that the Commission referred to the involvement of economic and industrial sequels which call for thorough investigation and debate in which a policy of gradual implementation could be considered. The Commission went on: We invite the unions, the employers and the Commonwealth to give careful study to these questions with the knowledge that the Commission is available to assist by conciliation or arbitration in the resolution of the problems. I believe that we should heed those wise words of the specially appointed Commission rather than the words of Senator Tangney's morion which call for a stepping up of legislative and administrative action. Surely we should follow the course laid down in the Commission's judgment. I think that not since 1949 have the unions advocated in the court this question of equal pay. Now an invitation has been extended to them, to the employers and to the Commonwealth to give careful study to these questions with the knowledge that the Commission is available to assist by conciliation or arbitration in the resolution of the problems. As Mr Holt said in 1953, the Commonwealth is not opposed to the principle of equal pay but it is opposed to beating the gun by beating recognised tribunals to a decision. Surely to goodness, it is appropriate to follow the wise advice given by the Commission in its decision in the national wage case on 5th lune last. 1 was very interested to read the following comment which appears on page 23 of the annual report of the Public Service Board for 1966-67: On 28th June 1967 the High Council of Commonwealth Public Service Organisations requested a meeting with the Board in order to discuss this aspect of the Commission's decision. Seeing the wisdom of the words of the Commission, the High Council made that request. I believe that that is the way in which this matter of equal pay for men and women should be resolved. The invitation extended by the Commission in its judgment on 5th June 1967 should be accepted. Following the lines of the request made by the High Council and using the auspices and good offices of the Commission, the parties should sit down and study this matter. After all, tremendous economic, industrial and social challenges arise from it. Therefore, I do not think it should be treated in the way that Senator Tangney and other members of the Opposition suggest; namely, by legislation of this Parliament or administrative action by any Minister of this Government. This matter should be discussed with the Commission. It should be argued. The good offices of the Commission should be used with a view to determining it. As I read the Commission's words, it calls for a gradual implementation, not a sudden implementation by legislative or administrative action, as is suggested in the remarks of honourable senators opposite. I consider that it is a matter for gradual movement after investigation and debate. The unions, the employers and the Commonwealth should be the three parties in the discussion. I do not think I can usefully add anything. I believe that the motion should not be carried. The debate has been useful, but on the other hand it has taken up considerable time, which, as Senator Cormack pointed out, could have been used to greater advantage in consideration of the Estimates. 1363 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - The Opposition believes that this matter is so significant and important that it is no less important than any other matter. Therefore our time could not be better used than by debating the need for this great social and economic reform. Although it may be becoming a hardy annual and although the accusation may be made that this matter of urgency has some political propaganda content, a political propaganda campaign can succeed only if it has wide support. If the matter does not have general interest, the motion must fail. This matter will be decided on the interest that there is in it. The indications are that all sections of society believe that there should be some recognition of the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. On other occasions members of the Government parties have cast doubt on the possibility and desirability of the implementation of the principle. They have raised such arguments as the necessity for men and women to accept equal responsibilities. However to-day, in the main, they have said that they believe in the principle, but they have found some reason why the Government should not act as the matter of urgency says it should act. Let us see what validity there is in the claim of members of the Government parties. Let us see what is wrong with this matter of urgency. Because of the Government's failure to do anything in this field, this matter has been brought forward today. It is significant that it has been brought forward as part of Equal Pay Week which is organised throughout Australia. Firstly it refers to the Government's failure to honour its international obligations. We are told that the Government is not failing to honour such obligations. The Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) referred to the 1951 International Labour Organisation conference decision that the principle of equal pay for work of equal value should be adopted by the member countries and said that Australia had already announced that it would not oppose an application for equal pay. But will the Government go before the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission or any other tribunal and say that in accordance with the ILO decision it supports the principle of equal pay? The Government is required to do that under the ILO decision, but we have no indication that it is prepared to do it. All that we are told is that it will not oppose an application at this stage. As Senator Laught pointed out, the terms of the ILO decision were that the principle should be implemented in accordance with the policy of wage fixation in the country concerned. I do not know where members of the Government parties obtained their knowledge of wage fixation methods in Australia, but they have no idea of the method of operation of the tribunal that their Government's legislation brought into being. The Conciliation and Arbitration Act does not set up an arbitration body to decide all wage questions. The emphasis in the Act and the intention when it was introduced was that there be conciliation. The instructions given to the various commissioners and the powers contained in the Act in relation to conferences are designed to get the parties to agree if possible. The wage fixing tribunal has to decide questions only if the parties cannot agree. So the first essential under the Act that honourable senators opposite say we should accept is conciliation and agreement between the parties. In this debate we are asking that the Commonwealth Government, as the biggest employer of female labour in Australia, accept conciliation in accordance with the terms of its Act, try to reach agreement on this principle on which we all agree today, and implement it by a joint application or a consent application to the relevant arbitration tribunal for the fixation of equal wages. Let us look at what has happened to the wage structure in Australia. The previous argument about equal responsibility no longer has any validity. Previously we had a two-component wage. One component was the basic wage which was based on the needs of the family unit. It could be said that the female was not the basis of the family unit; that the husband had the responsibility of providing for his family and therefore should receive the basic wage. It is claimed that wages are now in excess of the needs of the family unit and are based upon the ability of the economy to pay. Whatever is the ability of the economy to pay, it must have the same ability to pay a female as it has to pay a male. Therefore the argument based on needs - that the needs of a female and a male are not the same - has been completely destroyed. The basis on which living wages are fixed in Australia today - the ability of the economy to pay - must apply to both sexes. The last basic wage decision went a step closer towards equality of wage rates because it provided a flat increase of $1 and declared a total wage. In future the total wage will be based on the ability of the economy to pay the work force, not the different sexes in the work force. This is a start towards equalisation of wages for the sexes. As Senator Wright pointed out, the unions are invited to apply for gradual increases in the total wage. The unions are invited to discuss wage increases with employers on the basis of the capacity of industry to pay. The South Australian Government, rather than await a decision of the arbitration tribunal, reached agreement with teachers to introduce equal pay for the sexes over a period of 5 years. There is no reason why the Commonwealth should not adopt this policy with its employees. By acting in this way the Commonwealth would be following the principle laid down in the Conciliation and Arbitration Act of discussing matters with employees. In granting equal pay for work of equal value the Commonwealth would be setting an example . to other employers. We favour the implementation of the principle of equal pay over a period of years. The Commonwealth should acknowledge its position as the biggest employer of female labour in Australia. lt should give a lead to other employers. lt should seek to give effect to the Conciliation and Arbitration Act as was intended when the legislation was framed. It should promote the idea of reaching agreement with employees and resorting to arbitration only when all else has failed, lt should give some indication that it will adopt the principle of equal pay for work of equal value. lt is not true that the unions have not been concerned about this matter. We heard Senator Laught in snide fashion ask whether trade unions pay male rates to female employees. I believe that they do. There would be few unions in South Australia which do not pay male rates to female employees. 1 point out that trade unions are not employers within the definition in the Conciliation and Arbitration Act. Trade unions arc not bound by arbitration awards. Under the South Australian industrial code trade unions are not employers. So they are not bound by awards. But in South Australia the unions have reached agreement with the Federated Clerks Union to pay to their clerical employees the margin awarded to oil company clerks. This is the highest margin for clerks in South Australia. So not only do women employed by trade unions in South Australia get male rates of pay; they also get the highest, award rates for their classification. In the forefront of organisations in South Australia paying equal rates for work of equal value is the South Australian Public Service. It is paying equal rates by consent. This is what we urge the Commonwealth to do. Arrangements have been made for teachers in South Australia to have equal pay in 5 years. In South Australia barmaids receive equal pay. This is the result of legislative action. There is at the present time before the South Australian Parliament a proposal to alter the industrial code so as to require the industrial tribunal in that State to consider the gradual introduction of equal pay into all industries in South Australia. Senator Cormack doubted whether trade unions would be willing to accept females in industry if the principle of equal pay were adopted. In some cases some unions may be hesitant to see females employed in their industries because female labour is at present a threat to the wage standards of male employees. Trade unions have a responsibility to protect wage standards at all times. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1365 KAS Victoria 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The motion before the Senate is that the Senate at its rising should adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. The motion has been moved by Senator Tangney in order to debate a matter of urgency. It is one which no senator on this side of the chamber could support. The motion has been moved for political purposes. Senator Murphy agreed yesterday that our daily hours of sitting should be extended in order to cope with the work that is before the Senate, although he expressed the wish that we should not sit on Fridays because of the need to attend to matters outside this Parliament. But notwithstanding the busy programme that we have, including the further debate on the Estimates, the Opposition has contrived to initiate a debate on the subject of equal pay for work of equal value. Senator Cavanagh said that no subject was more important than the one now before us. To the best of my knowledge in the last 12 months no honourable senator opposite has raised this matter. 1365 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - We realise that there is no hope of the Government considering the matter. 1365 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - A number of things have been said in the course of the debate which in my opinion indicate that it is anything but hopeless to expect the Government to deal with this matter sympathetically. I appreciate Senator Tangney's sincerity in raising this matter. On several occasions over the years I have heard her discuss this subject at length. I would say to Senator Tangney that I would be one who would support the general principle as being one which in due course will be applied throughout Australia. I believe that the honourable senator was being entirely unfair and entirely untruthful in asserting that the Government has failed to honour its international obligations. 1366 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - I rise to order. I object to the term 'untruthful' applied to me in the context in which it has been used by the honourable senator and I ask that the remark be withdrawn. 1366 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The statement made by the honourable senator could perhaps best be termed as being entirely incorrect. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Ord r! Senator Tangney has asked that the word untruthful' be withdrawn. 1366 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I withdraw the word 'untruthful'. I believe that the honourable senator's comment was designed to mislead people. Not one honourable senator on the Opposition side of the chamber has been willing to justify her words. She said that the Government has failed to honour its international obligations, but it has no international obligation in this matter. In that regard I do not believe that the words she used are fair. I give the honourable senator credit for bringing forward the point that equal work should be rewarded by equal pay. She has stated reasons for raising the argument at this time. It is because equal pay week is upon us. As we have in this community either a day or a week for nearly everything - a hospital week, apprenticeship week and equal pay week - I sincerely hope that our hours of sitting will not be taken up with a debate on the subject of whatever week it happens to be. I know that that would not be the wish of the honourable senator. 1366 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - He is giving me an idea. 1366 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The honourable senator has had the idea of dealing with this subject at this time when I believe we should be dealing with the Estimates. The suggestion of equal pay for equal work indicates that in the past there has been discrimination in relation to the volume of work performed by men and women. I have no doubt that eventually equal work will be rewarded on an equal basis whether the person performing the work is male or female. There has been some difference in the treatment of men and women and I imagine that in this growing community there has been a social need for this. If we look back for about 30 years we see that the concepts of need and social responsibility have carried with them the idea that the male basic wage should be related to the normal needs of an average employee with a wife and children. This principle has been to the fore in the Arbitration Court's approach to the basic wage. Through a succession of major cases before the Arbitration Court and, later, the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission, the concept of the capacity of industry to pay a basic wage has become the dominant principle in assessing a basic wage. Although capacity to pay has become the dominant concept, this does not necessarily mean that there is now no element of the needs concept in the basic wage. As capacity to pay has become the dominant consideration and would apply in the event of an application by unions for a basic wage for females equal to that for males, it would be necessary to consider the effect of a higher female basic wage on the capacity of the economy to meet the added cost. I believe that there would be considerable disturbance to our economy if this concept were adopted too readily. If we consider the effect upon certain industries today of a female basic wage equal to the male basic wage honourable senators on both sides of the chamber must agree that industries such as the textile industry as they operate in Australia would be put out of business immediately if this concept were brought in at this time. A consideration of our taxation structure would be needed should this concept be adopted. Great consideration would have to be given to the social service benefits which are now payable and, should this principle apply, we would have to consider the effect on the employment of women generally. Surely that is a matter which should be discussed at length by those who propose that we should adopt this principle immediately. In our present situation, rather than increase the female basic wage to the existing level of the male basic wage, it may become necessary in some instances to reduce the male wage so that it is within the capacity of our economy to pay. I believe that equal basic wages at this time would bring about a reduction in the employment of females. 1 believe that this is one consideration to which the trade unions have given serious thought in not pursuing this matter before the industrial courts. Several honourable senators opposite have dealt with a matter which is basic to this proposal. I refer to convention No. 100 and recommendation 90 of the International Labour Organisation conference. If honourable senators opposite looked honestly at the convention they would agree that Australia has not in any way failed to meet its obligations. The wording read out by Senator Laught said that this equal pay proposition should be brought about in a manner which is consistent with existing methods of determining rates of remuneration. That is what the Commonwealth is now doing and that is what the States also are doing. 1367 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - Some States. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The honourable senator said that, only some States are doing this. It has already been stated that New South Wales has legislated for equal pay, but I have heard no member of the Opposition telling the Senate what has taken place in New South Wales. The passing of legislation in New South Wales does not mean that women doing equal work are getting the same rates of pay as men. The legislation applies to not more than 10% of female employees in that State. Further, that legislation does not comply with the instruments of the International Labour Organisation on equal pay. For example, it does not apply to women engaged on work which is usually performed by females. 1367 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - That is right. That is the whole point. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Yes. One of the few exceptions in New South Wales are psychiatric nurses where male and female nurses are paid at the same rate. Is it suggested by any honourable senator opposite that the ILO intended that nurses generally would not be paid at the same rate? It must be agreed that that is proof that the concept recommended by the ILO has not been adopted in New South Wales. Honour-' able senators opposite should consider that point. Although they have suggested that the State Governments of New South Wales and South Australia have been taking action along these lines, they must agree that the situation in those States at the moment is not what is now proposed. 1367 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - 'But they have started. They have begun. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I suggest to Senator Tangney that we should consider the attitude of the Federal Government as far back as 1953. Honourable senators will recall that Labor was in Opposition even as far back as 1953. The Commonwealth stated at that time that it did not oppose the principle of equal remuneration for men and women for work of equal value. 1367 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - We want something concrete. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - You want something and at times you get it by doing a deal outside the Arbitration Commission, which is something with which we on this side of the House do .not agree. 1367 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - The days of your philandering are over. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Mine are just starting. The Commonwealth has adopted the principle that it will not ratify an agreement unless it can implement it. I suggest that even if the Australian Labor Party were in office today, it would not wish to ratify an agreement unless it could implement it. 1367 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator Wilkinson - That is the Government's principle. 1367 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The Government will not ratify an agreement unless it can implement it. We could have a situation similar to that which exists in a number of the countries to which Senator Tangney referred. They have ratified an agreement but they will never implement it. It is hypocrisy to do that. The Federal Government, of which I am very pleased to be a supporter, will not become a party to that type of situation. The Federal Government believes that the application of the principle of equal pay for work of equal value should be determined by the courts and the other established industrial tribunals. I do not know how we could argue otherwise. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1368 K1F Victoria 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - 1 rise to support the proposal that has been submitted by Senator Tangney. I like others want to congratulate Senator Tangney on the wonderful work she has done in this chamber in relation to women in general and in particular to the subject we are now discussing. 1 am absolutely confident that she will be sitting in this House when a Labor government not only ratifies but implements the International Labour Organisation decisions regarding equal pay for work of equal value. A number of honourable senators from the Government side have said that they believe in the principle of equal pay. 1 suggest that this is the danger which confronts Australian women. People who believe in equal pay for equal work are not prepared to act to implement it. Senator Webster's statements were similar to the forebodings of people of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. If one were to read reports of the House of Commons debates in the 1840s, when children were still working in British mines, and were to read the forebodings of the Conservatives of that day, one would note that Senator Webster has uttered similar forebodings in this House this afternoon. Honourable senators opposite have said, in effect, that the time is not opportune to implement this principle of equal pay for equal work. How often have we heard it said that the time is not opportune? In 1842, when girls and boys of 8 and 10 years of age were harnessed to little carts in mines to pull the product out of the mine instead of its being done by horse or other methods, the Conservatives in the House of Commons said that the time was not opportune to alter the situation even though they regretted that they had to use children to do this work. Today the leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) and other honourable senators opposite have said that the economic implications are too far reaching for the Government to make a decision on this question now. Let me go through the history of this matter. For the whole of my lifetime I have been associated with the trade union movement. Every reform that has been made in the interests of the working class of this nation has been achieved despite the forebodings of the Conservatives. When the working week was reduced from 56 hours to 40 hours we heard the same cliches uttered as were uttered today. The same has been said in relation to equal pay for equal work - a principle that has been contained in ILO conventions for 16 or 17 years. Certainly it has been contained in one of the conventions to which this Government should have subscribed for the whole of its time in office. I am proud to be able - indeed I welcome the opportunity - to support Senator Tangney on this occasion. Senator Webster said that if the principle of equal pay for equal work was implemented the textile industry would go out of business. In 1842 the Conservatives said that the Bank of England would close if children were not permitted to work in mines. Women and children, in their fight for equality, have been confronted with the fact that although people believe in a principle they are never willing to implement it. There was a fight when women wanted the right to vote. There was a fight when they wanted to achieve equality in other fields - even for the right to stand for election to Parliament. It was not until the 1 920s that women in Victoria were permitted to stand for election to Parliament. The same argument that is being used today can be found in the Hansard reports of that period. On this occasion Government supporters have done their utmost to try to defend a position which is absolutely indefensible. They have tried to show that they are as keen as we are to implement the policy of equal pay for equal work. The reason why they have to get up and say that they believe in this principle is that it is contained in the official federal platform of the Liberal Party of Australia, as approved by the Federal Council of that Party. Clauses 74 to 92 deal with employment and industry. Clause 85 states that one of the objectives of the Party is the recognition of the principle of equal remuneration for men and women for work of equal value. 1368 K69 0 0 SIM, John Senator Sim - I was going to read it. The honourable senator has saved my doing it. 1368 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - Senator Sim was prepared to read it out, but he is not prepared to implement it. That is the difference between members of the Labor Party and Government supporters. Government supporters are not prepared to buck the official policy of the Party. They say: 'Although this Is a matter with which we agree in principle, in no circumstances must we implement it.' It has been argued that arbitration tribunals, not the Government, should implement this principle. Let me throw this argument into the melting pot and see what the result will be. The Government would not break any precedent if it legislated or moved into the administrative field to implement the principle of equal pay for equal work. There is a precedent for this move. In at least four States of the Commonwealth legislation has been introduced to provide for equal pay for equal work. The precedent has also been established by arbitration tribunals. I have worked in industries in which the awards provide for equal pay. In the case of tram drivers in Victoria, provision for the payment of equal pay was inserted in the award with the cooperation of the State Government. Many other awards in Victoria provide for equal pay for equal work. The principle applies in some of the Commonwealth services and it also applies in some State services. Senator Cohen referred to arbitration authorities which have indicated quite clearly that they believe that the economic and social problems associated with equal pay for equal work are such that they should be handled at a legislative level. The arguments that have been advanced one after another by honourable senators opposite are not worthy of any consideration. Although this Government professes to believe in the principle of equal pay for work of equal value, since at least 1953 it has said that that principle cannot be implemented today or tomorrow. The present Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) is on record as saying in 1958 that he was not opposed to the principle of equal pay for equal work. If that is the Government's policy, it should do something positive to assist in the conciliatory discussions that would take place if applications were made to have this principle implemented. The Government could assist greatly by ensuring that the arbitration tribunals receive sympathetically any application from the trade union movement instead of advocating before the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission, as it has done in national wage cases in recent years, that the basic wage, as it was previously, and now the total wage not be increased, because the economy of the country cannot stand an increase. I believe that the Australian Labor Party this afternoon has done a great service to the women of Australia and indeed to the cause of equal pay throughout Australia. We on this side of the Senate this afternoon have clearly shown that the Government does not intend at any time to implement any of the decisions of the International Labour Organisation relating to equal pay or to assist employees in any application for implementation of this principle. What honourable senators opposite are saying they are saying in terms in which for centuries reforms aimed at adoption of the principle of equal pay and equal rights throughout a nation have been opposed. I believe that I have said sufficient, Mr Deputy President, to indicate that we on this side of the chamber want equal pay for equal work to be implemented as quickly as possible. I now intend to test the sincerity of the Government in relation to the principles upon which it professes to stand. Accordingly, 1 move: That the question be now put. Question put. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 23 26 Majority . . . . 3 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 1370 K69 Western Australia 0 0 SIM, John Senator SIM - Mr Deputy President, we have become rather accustomed to urgency motions on matters having no urgency. Since 19tb April, the Australian Labor Party has presented six urgency motions. In addition, there has been one proposed by Senator McManus. That was the only one relating to a matter that had any degree of urgency. It concerned the soliciting of funds for North Vietnam. Since 19th April, we have spent almost 18 hours discussing matters of no urgency. What urgency was there about water conservation that it should have been debated on 19th April? On 22nd August, the Chowilla Dam project was discussed as a matter of urgency. I put it frankly to Senator O'Byrne, who is interjecting, that nothing that is said here will alter the situation in Victoria. Was there any need to debate that project as a matter of urgency on 22nd August? Trade with China was another subject raised as a matter of urgency. But that was of no urgency at all. Such trade has been going on for years. So what was the urgency that required discussion of it here? Power and water development projects in Queensland also were discussed in a debate on an urgency motion. The only urgency seen by the Opposition then was due to the fact that an election was pending in Queensland. Yesterday, we debated an urgency motion relating to losses to fruit growers caused by the closure of the Suez Canal and consequent delays to shipping. This may be a matter of great importance to the fruit growers of South Australia and Tasmania, but what was the urgency that required its discussion in the Senate? I now come to the matter that is before us today - equal pay for equal work. The terms in which the motion of urgency has been proposed are interesting. The adjournment of the Senate has been proposed for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgency, namely: The Government's failure to honour its international obligations and to take all possible legislative and administrative steps towards achieving equal pay for men and women for work of equal value. Senator Wright showed that the charge that the Government has failed to honour its international obligations is absolutely without foundation. I shall come back to that later. I recognise that the subject of equal pay for work of equal value is important, but what is the urgency that requires it to be discussed today? I understand that an equal pay week is being held. Apparently, therefore, there has suddenly developed an urgent need to devote 3 hours of the Senate's time to a debate on this subject today, though we have on the business paper other matters of exceedingly great importance, particularly the proposed expenditures of the Commonwealth for the current financial year. We have to discuss these proposed expenditures in considerable detail. 1370 K1R 0 0 PROWSE, Edgar Senator Prowse - What about Fathers Day? 1370 K69 0 0 SIM, John Senator SIM - This may be the next one. Even if this motion were carried, what effect would it have? Would it bring equal pay for equal work any nearer? I do not think it would. One is left to draw only one conclusion, that is, that this is no more than another political propaganda exercise, to try to gain, with a Senate election coming on, some kudos by posing as great champions of equal pay for women. The Government has made its attitude over many years quite clear. I am indebted to Senator Poyser for quoting from the Liberal Parly platform. I do not run away from that, lt is because of this platform that we stand and say that we do not oppose the principle of equal pay. We support it and have supported it for years. Our attitude :s quite clear. We believe that this is not a matter for governments to legislate on. This is a matter for 'he appropriate wages tribunals of Australia to decide upon. 1370 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - Why is it in the Liberal Party policy if it is nol a matter for legislation? 1370 K69 0 0 SIM, John Senator SIM - That is an intelligent interjection. It is in our policy because we accept the principle of equal pay for equal work but this does not bind the Government. 1370 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - Why does not the Government legislate for it? 1370 K69 0 0 SIM, John Senator SIM - I am very charitable with the honourable senator but it may not last much longer. This does not bind the Government to legislate. The Government's attitude is quite clear. It is accepted and acknowledged by the Party that this is a matter for the wages tribunals of Australia to decide upon. This is a matter of great economic importance to Australia. Senator Wheeldon might find it a laughing matter. Indeed, he apparently regards the whole question of equal pay for equal work as a laughing matter. This may be the Opposition's attitude. This matter may be brought up today as some sort of joke, because ever since I started to speak Senator Wheeldon has been laughing about it. He apparently finds it a laughing matter. To us, it is not. Where we disagree with the Opposition is on the question of who makes this decision, whether it is the Government by legislation or the properly constituted wages tribunals. We stand quite clearly and unequivocally on this issue. It is a matter to be decided by the wages tribunals and it should have been brought before them. When I looked at the records I found that the Australian Council of Trade Unions raised this matter before the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court in 1949 and it has not raised the matter since. It could have done so at the last wages hearing but it did not do so. 1 do not think that any trade unions have raised this matter with their properly constituted wages tribunals. They do not want to. If this is a matter of some great principle, of great urgency, of great moment, why did not the ACTU raise it again? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman) - Order! The time allowed for debate on this motion having expired, the Senate will proceed to the next business. 1371 miscellaneous 1371 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I present the report by the Tariff Board on: Television receiver channel tuners and deflection yokes I also present the following reports by the Tariff Board which do not call for any legislative action: High speed drill rods (dumping and subsidies) Knitted shirts (dumping and subsidies). 1371 miscellaneous The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- The President has received a letter from Senator Branson as follows: My dear President, I hereby request my immediate discharge on the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory, my reasons being: That the Committee cannot fulfil) a useful purpose so long as it can only deal with matters that are referred to it by the Minister and not by the Parliament. The particular circumstances at the moment whereby the Minister referred to the Committee only the question of freehold land in the ACT, despite the fact that a unanimous request was made by the Committee to refer the related questions of city, commercial, and industrial leases in the ACT. Yours sincerely, H. BRANSON 1371 1371 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - by leave - I move: That Senator Branson be discharged from attendance as a member of the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory. I shall at a later stage, after we have had more time to consider the matter, be proposing a motion for a senator to replace him on that Committee. 1371 K8Y TASMANIA IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - 1. oppose the motion. It is about time that we had men with independent minds prepared to sit on Committees in which they may be outvoted. The Senate will do a great disservice to the people of Canberra if it accepts Senator Branson's resignation. He should be asked to reconsider the whole matter and we should not pass this motion. It is not often that we see a member of a party prepared to get up and buck his party. I know he has done this on previous occasions. It means, of course, the end of preferment for him but I do not think that that worries Senator Branson. When someone of an independent spirit is prepared to rise and state a case but finds that he has to resign in order to do so it is a sad day for the Parliament if it accepts his resignation. This affects all of the people of Canberra, not just the Minister himself. Senator Branson's reasons are valid reasons for the Government to take note of. The Government should try to change the position. Senator Branson should stay on the Committee until such time as, by maintaining this attitude, he forces the Government to change the terms of reference of the Committee. I for one am prepared to- oppose the motion and ask Senator Branson to reconsider his resignation with a view to the Parliament's obtaining a change in the terms of reference. 1372 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I want to speak briefly in opposition to the motion. If a man wants to resign I do not think we can do other than accept his resignation. But this resignation emphasises the futility of this Committee which can do nothing or has very limited power and seems to be a waste of time. The resignation is being made as a protest at the limited power being given to the Committee at a time when the senator resigning from it believes there is work for the Committee to do. On the question of whether or not the complaint is justified I find some support from the remarks last night of Senator Toohey, who is a delegate from the Australian Labor Party to this Committee. He said that there was justification for the grievance of Senator Branson and that it may be only a short time before all members of the Committee find it necessary to follow this example. When members of the Committee seem almost unanimous in believing that the Committee cannot function as it should function, rather than just replace one member of it who has emphasised and shown up this weakness we should seek some declaration from the Government or the Minister on how this weakness is to be overcome, or we should seek from the Senate an expression that it does not approve of the continuation of a Committee, which practically all members of it find cannot function in an efficient and proper manner in carrying out the work that the Parliament which appointed it thought it should carry out. 1372 JYA Tasmania 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - I realise that Senator Branson has freedom of choice in the action he is taking. 1 am sure that he has given the matter consideration. However, I would like to tell honourable senators that during the period of time 1 served on the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory I found it to bc the most frustrating, useless and timewasting exercise that I have yet been associated with in the Parliament. In this particular sphere the Parliament is only a tool of the Executive. References to the Committee are sent along in the manner of dropping a few crumbs for it to feed on while the main decisions are being made on the Executive and bureaucratic level. 1372 K7Y 0 0 TANGNEY, Dorothy Senator Tangney - The decisions have already been made. 1372 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - That is so. The Committee has made great efforts to establish a dialogue and to get communication with the Minister, to try to get through the point that it is interested in the development of Canberra from the great concept that Burley Griffon originally offered for us to follow in the manner of the land itself and the planning of the city. Canberra is regarded as a magnificently planned city. The plan should be continued and developed under the watchful eye of the Parliament itself. Yet this Committee, which is supposed to have the responsibility of carrying out its duties on behalf of fellow members of the Parliament and to report back to the Parliament on what is happening, is given tasks that stultify the hopes of its members that they can contribute something to the planning of the development of Canberra. T quite understand Senator Branson's feelings. When I was a member of the Committee we were bogged down in correspondence with Mr Freeth, the Minister for the Interior at that time. In his correspondence he gave us to understand that we did not count for anything and that we were only wasting our time in corresponding with him. I felt then exactly as Senator Branson feels now. I wanted to throw in the towel. I reconsidered my position and stayed on the Committee until I had served my period of time. I sympathise with the honourable senator and I understand the agony he has been through because of the frustration encountered as a member of a committee which is able to get nowhere very slowly. 1372 K2I Western Australia 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator BRANSON - So that this matter can be resolved before the suspension of the sitting I wish to state that I could not withdraw my request to be discharged from the Committee. If I were to do so I believe that I would lay myself open to the charge that I was engaging in political manoeuvre. I would not want my sincerity doubted. I am grateful for what has been said. If my resignation should bring forth what I think the charter of the Committee should be, that would be a different matter. Perhaps in the future I would put my name forward and again seek to be appointed to the Committee, but at this time I could not withdraw my request for discharge from the Committee. 1373 CJO Western Australia 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I will be brief. I also oppose the motion, for the reasons that have already been put forward. In opposing the motion we have a feeling of sympathy for Senator Branson in being placed in the intolerable position of being a Liberal Party member of a Committee appointed to advise a member of the Australian Country Party. It is most unfortunate that this coalition is having a disastrous impact, not only on members of committees but also on members of the Cabinet who are finding the position intolerable. No doubt the precedent set today will be followed by a number of Ministers - even senior Ministers - and the coalition will be finished. I believe we ought to feel some sympathy for Senator Branson, who as a member of the Liberal Party has found it intolerable to work under a Minister who is a member of the Australian Country Party. 1373 K8N South Australia 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I am afraid that 1 was outside the chamber when the motion was proposed. 1 understand that Senator Branson has been asked to reconsider his resignation from the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory. If you will permit me, Sir, as a member of that Committee, I would like to point out to the Senate, as I did during the debate on the adjournment of the Senate last night, that I can understand readily the frustration experienced by Senator Branson. Quite frankly, I was considering very seriously whether I should follow his example. However, certain difficulties are involved. I was appointed to the Committee as a member of the Opposition and I thought that I should first of all convey to my Party any decision I would make. I think the Senate should understand that it is not of much use for both Houses of the Parliament to appoint committees to do specific things if useful work and activity do not spring from the efforts of those committees. In the time that I have been a member of this Committee - it is a considerable period - it has seemed to me that there is very little reason for the continued existence of the Committee in the present circumstances. Mr Anthony, the former Minister for the Interior, probably under pressure of rumblings inside the Committee, decided to refer to it leases of residential sites in the Australian Capital Territory and an inquiry into this activity is to take place. I believe that some useful work might spring from such an inquiry. 1373 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - I rise to a point of order. Have you, Mr. Deputy President, noticed the time? The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman) - Order! There is no substance in the point of order. 1373 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - May I continue my remarks after the suspension of the sitting? I do not wish to detain the Senate. Sitting suspended from 6.2 to 8.0 p.m. 1373 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - Before the suspension of the sitting I was informing the Senate that the Australian Capital Territory Committee had felt some disquiet for some time because of the serious restrictions placed upon its activities by the charter under which it operates. I do not want to misinform the Senate or lead the Senate to believe that this is something that has just happened of recent date. We knew, of course, when we first went on to the Committee that we would, deal only with such matters as were referred to us by the Minister for the Interior. As one who takes a very keen interest in the development and growth of Canberra, I was hoping over the long period that I have been associated with the Committee that the Minister would see fit to refer many more matters to it. I was hoping that he would refer to us matters covering a much wider scope than those with which we have been dealing. This feeling, communicating itself to other members of the Committee, has culminated in the matter under discussion tonight - Senator Branson's resignation from the Committee. I do not intend to canvass Senator Branson's resignation very much other than to say that, in the light of circumstances now, he might feel that he would like to reconsider his decision. But that is up to him. I for one feel that it would not bc proper for the rest of the Committee to adopt the stand he has taken, particularly in view of the fact that the Minister has now indicated that he is prepared to refer to the Committee the question of the control of the sub-division of freehold lands in the Australian Capital Territory. 1374 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - When did he do that? 1374 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - I do not want to say anything that is wrong, but I think this may have some connection with a recent action of the Regulations and Ordinances Committee. I do not want to confuse the issue by introducing a matter which is not yet before the Senate but which may have some relation to the present discussion, lt is quite obvious, that the decision of the Minister could be related to the circumstances surrounding a recent action of the Regulations and Ordinances Committee. Be that as it may, at least the proposal to give the Committee, for the first time since I have been associated with it, an opportunity to get its teeth into something that will be of interest to it and perhaps of some benefit to the citizens of Canberra is a good one. This proposal was accepted by the Australian Capital Territory Committee at its meeting, and we also agreed unanimously to ask the Minister to refer to the Committee for similar inquiry questions relating to city industrial and commercial leases for it is in this field that a considerable amount of dissatisfaction and disquiet has been expressed. 1374 K2I 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator Branson - He has been asked to do that in the past and refused. 1374 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - That is so but the Committee did not accept that as final. It requested the Minister to reconsider his attitude and refer to the Committee questions relating to industrial and commercial leases in the city, about which there has been so much criticism. It might be as well if I inform the Senate that over the last 3 or 4 months, since this question of industrial and commercial leases became a burning one, the Committee has been inundated with correspondence from business concerns and citizens who feel that they are being unjustly treated under the existing system. Some have claimed that others have secured unfair advantages as a result of decisions made with respect to commercial and industrial leases in the city. I have a pile of this type of correspondence, as has every other member of the Committee and no doubt the people who sent it in acted in the belief that this Committee had some real authority. Unfortunately we have had to inform our correspondents that this is not so. In effect, we had to admit - reluctantly on my part - that the Committee was little more than a rubber stamp. The present set up in relation to commercial and industrial leases in the city has become a matter of great public interest and, as I said earlier, 1 think the Senate, should be told something about it. It might be appropriate also if I told the Senate about some of the Committee's activities. The title 'Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory Committee' is a very imposing one. It certainly lends itself to the thought that the Committee would be considering all sorts of interesting matters relating to the development and progress of the ACT. But the Committee acts only when the Minister thinks fit to refer to it a matter such as the sub-division of a new area, and the strict limitations placed upon the Committee's activities are starkly revealed by the fact that it has power to consider only such aspects as the width of roads, access to blocks and the location of roads surrounding shopping centres. Our activities virtually begin and end at that level. There is one point that I wish to make to the Senate and I think the Senate should digest it well. In carrying out the restricted activities that I have mentioned, the Committee meets officers of the Department of Interior and other officers connected wilh progress and developmental activities. They are all men of tremendous ability and I emphasise that they often have much greater powers and authority than have the men who comprise this Committee. Indeed, when we measure the meagre amount of Authority which we have as members of the Committee against that of the men who advise the Committee from time to time on the limited activities which I have outlined, we must wonder whether the Committee ought to be given much more authority. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that the Committee will not be able to function properly until such time as the Minister sees fit to widen its activities considerably and greatly increase its authority. An all party committee of both houses of the Parliament should be able to lend a tremendous amount of drive and assistance to the development of the ACT. More important still, it could act as a buffer between the big brotherism which seems to have developed at the top level and the people of the ACT who feel they are being very sadly used in many directions in connection with i he subdivision of freehold land and with commercial and industrial leases in the city. Both of these matters are giving rise to a great deal of concern in the ACT at the present time. I have with me some of the correspondence which 1 have no doubt has been sent to all members of that Committee. One letter from George Wimpey and Co. covers 30 or 40 pages. There are submissions from a Mr Kousal and there is a legal opinion regarding land development by private enterprise. There is a great deal of correspondence of a similar character, all indicating the concern that the people of the ACT, both businessmen and private citizens, feel because their rights are not being protected properly as a result of the Minister refusing to give the Committee an opportunity to deal with these matters and to assist them. lt is my earnest hope that the action Senator Branson has taken - somewhat precipitate, perhaps, but nevertheless taken in good faith, I am sure, and with the best of intentions - will have one of two beneficial results. I hope, firstly, that the Minister will decide that this Committee must act in a wider sense and have greater authority than it has at present, or secondly, that at some stage in the not too distant future the other members of the Committee may feel impelled to take the same kind of action as was taken by Senator Branson. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! I have allowed this debate to roam over a wide field but I now ask honourable senators to confine their remarks to the terms of the motion and to the material in Senators Branson's letter. I call Senator Devitt. 1375 JUH Tasmania 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - At the outset let me say that I very much regret the action that Senator Branson has taken on this occasion. Quite frankly, I question whether any real benefit will flow from it having regard to the circumstances as they exist today. I know the great interest that Senator Branson has in this matter and I would much prefer that he remain with the Committee to give his fellow members the benefit of his knowledge and tremendous interest. I believe that his withdrawal from this Committee will not strengthen it; rather it will have the effect of weakening it. I believe also that if other members of the Committee become as frustrated as I know he has become about the emasculated role of the Committee, to use his words, we will have ultimately a committee completely compliant, completely under the domination and control of the Minister and completely devoid of any real purpose or functional ability. So I suggest to him that he reconsider his decision. The lack of proper planning over past years of the affairs of the Australian Capital Territory has given rise to the feeling of frustration which exists not only in the mind of Senator Branson - it caused him to dissociate himself from the affairs of the Committee - but also in the minds of other members of the Committee. In 1948 or 1949 one of my Tasmanian colleagues, the late Mr J. R. H. Cole, who was then Town Clerk of Hobart, came to the ACT and reported on the setting up of a local government authority for this area. On at least one occasion, and possibly on two occasions, since then committees of the Senate have been set up to examine the general question of ACT affairs. As a result of the interpretation of city area leases, quite a number of problems have arisen concerning which members of the Committee have been bombarded with correspondence from many sections of the Canberra community asking that some action be taken to put the matter on a proper basis. Of course the whole point is that the Committee has no power unless the Minister is prepared to refer to it matters of consideration. 1375 KNR 0 0 HANNAFORD, Douglas Senator Hannaford - There is a new Minister for the Interior now and that might help. 1375 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - Yes, and I feel rather sorry that he is coming into office at a time when the Committee looks like falling apart. Other honourable senators would probably have a better appreciation of his ability and his attitude to the ACT than I have but I hope that he has those qualities in greater measure than did the previous incumbent of the office. I assume that this Committee was set up to assist in the development of the ACT and I hope that the new Minister, in his wisdom and out of the goodness of his heart and with all the other motivations that one would expect from a Minister, will call upon this Committee to determine many of the complex questions which are bedevilling the ACT at the present time. 1376 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - It is like the broadcasting and television committee. 1376 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - There are many such committees and there must be a great number of pigeonholes filled with reports. As a member of this Committee I feel duty bound to express my opinion on what is happening. I have had a good deal of experience in the field of local government in my State and I know that to obtain proper control of an area one must follow the processes laid down. In the post-war years it has been common practice in the better run municipalities to set up zoning areas and to define residential areas, industrial areas and rural localities. The districts are properly zoned and the people concerned have the right to examine the relevant plans and, if they feel aggrieved, to protest against them. They have recourse lo a proper authority to determine the form that the protest will take and that protest ultimately finds its way to a properly constituted court where they have a right to state their case for or against various proposals. No such right exists in the ACT. We recently had before the Senate an ordinance which deprived people in residential areas of the right to institute legal proceedings. The people of the Territory should be on a paT with people in the remainder of Australia. They should be able to exercise their civil right of taking legal action, if necessary, to protect their leases. At the present time they may not take legal action unless the Minister gives permission for that to be done. Nowhere else in Australia are the people denied their civil rights to the extent that they are in the ACT. These are the questions which are perplexing the Committee which regards itself as a responsible body charged with protecting the rights of the people of this Territory. I do not want to prolong this debate- 1376 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - Hear, hear! 1376 JUH 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I know that the Government does not like this but honourable senators opposite should bear in mind that we did not precipitate this position. Senator Branson, one of their own colleagues, did so. This is quite a serious matter. It concerns the affairs of about 110,000 people in the ACT. This Territory comes under the control of the Government which ultimately, at the top level, is charged with the responsibility of ensuring that the laws of this land are observed. Yet something that is enshrined in our system in the rest of Australia is denied to the people of this Territory. Surely that is not good enough. I sincerely hope that this matter will be taken up with the Minister for the Interior (Mr Nixon) when he has settled into his new position. I assure the Senate that the members of the Joint Committee will be quite accommodating in allowing him to settle into his new duties and responsibilities, but we will want to, be able to guide him and assist him so that the people of the ACT can have the same protection of law and the same rights as the people in any other part of Australia. 1376 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The interest that honourable senators opposite have taken in this matter moves one almost to tears. Whatever caused Senator Branson to take the action that, he has taken, I am sure that he is now very sorry that he took that action. 1376 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - He was driven to it. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! The Senate will come to order. 1376 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Those of us who have been in the Senate for quite a while understand very well the motives of honourable senators opposite in prolonging this debate. They want to keep away from any mention of. defence and any discussion of the defence estimates. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! I suggest that the Minister should come back to the subject of the debate. 1376 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The point that I am making is that honourable senators opposite do not want, in any circumstances, to come to a discussion of the defence estimates or to talk about defence. In another place yesterday- 1377 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - Mr Deputy President, I raise a point of order. I ask that the Minister be required to keep to the subject matter of the debate. 1377 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - I wish to speak to the point of order. At this stage Senator Henty is entitled to canvass the arguments of the Opposition and question their integrity. He is entitled to make his speech and the Leader of the Opposition has no right under any standing order to try to put Senator Henty out of countenance. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - If the Minister confines his remarks to the motion and the contents of Senator Branson's letter he will be in order. 1377 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I would hate to be out of order, but I do not think that in discussing the contents of Senator Branson's letter we should allow the opportunity to pass v without mentioning Senator Devitt's reference to a visit to this city in the very distant past when the Labor Party happened to be in office. It was such a long time ago that I compliment the honourable senator on his memory. I think it was in 1947 or 1948 that the Town Clerk of Hobart came to Canberra to advise on the matter of local government. Members of the Opposition are pushed to advancing that type of argument in order to make sure that time passes by and that no reference is made to the matter of defence which, as you are well aware, Mr Deputy President, is listed to be debated as soon as this motion is dealt with. Of course, yesterday the Leader of the Opposition in another place (Mr Whitlam) ran away from- 1377 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - Again I raise a point of order. I ask that the Minister be required to keep to the subject matter of the debate. 1377 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Speaking to the point of order, I suggest that if, every time an honourable senator on the Government side, when speaking in a debate, refers to what he believes to be the purpose for which that debate is being continued and to what he believes to be the reason why a matter that is on the notice paper is being deferred by wasting time, the Leader of the Opposition is to stand up and claim that the honourable senator is out of order, debate and public discussion in this chamber will be stifled. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- A short time ago the Chair warned an honourable senator that the debate was going too far away from the subject matter. I believe that the previous speaker got well away from the subject matter in some instances and that it is only fair that the Minister for Supply should be allowed to answer him. But I ask the Minister to come back to the subject matter of the debate. 1377 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - There are times when I think the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Murphy) has reached the stage where he believes that the Senate is a Sunday school, because he is so sensitive. Whenever anything is said about defence, he is so sensitive that he must stand up and take a point of order. Members of the Opposition have been running away from that matter at every opportunity. Whenever it is raised, up they pop like a jack-in-a-box, raising points of order. We have listened to speaker after speaker from the Opposition side. They were not interrupted by interjections by us. They canvassed a wide range of matters. They wandered away from the point. But when one speaker from this side of the chamber stands up and points out the facts of life - namely that the members of the Opposition are running away from a debate on another subject; that they a.-e only trying to waste time; that they want to make sure that we do not get down to debating the defence of this country and the commitment of Australian troops to Vietnam 1377 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - I raise a point of order for the third time. Standing order 419 states: No Senator shall digress from the subject matter of any Question under discussion; nor anticipate the discussion of any subject which appears on the Notice Paper. The Minister is repeatedly and flagrantly disregarding warnings that you have given, Mr Deputy President. The matters that are listed to come up for debate will be debated in their order. The Minister is deliberately defying the instruction that you have given. I ask you to require him to keep to the subject matter under discussion and not to deal deliberately with other matters in the way that he has been doing. 1377 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Speaking to the point of order, I suggest that it cannot be argued for a moment that Senator Henty is anticipating the discussion of something that is on the notice paper. What he is doing is regretting that the discussion o£ the defence estimates, which are listed on the notice paper, is being postponed by the Opposition. We have heard five Opposition speakers in a row speaking not to the motion before the Chair, which is that an honourable senator he discharged from service on a committee at his own request, but on the operations of a committee that is operating under terms of reference laid down by this Parliament. 1 suggest to you, Mr Deputy President, that in those circumstances there is no substance in a point of order which claims that an honourable senator on this side of the chamber is not entitled to regret that members of the Opposition have been speaking on something which is not the subject matter of the debate and to regret that the discussion of the defence estimates is being put off. I suggest that if he does that he is not anticipating that discussion. 1378 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - In speaking to the point of order, Mr Deputy President, I ask you to have the motion before the Chair read so that Senator Henty will know what we are debating. He was not in the chamber when the letter was read. 1378 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - The honourable senator should know that 1 have a loudspeaker in my office. 1378 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Then his hearing must be a little faulty, because it does not appear that he knows what the motion is. So I would like you to have the motion before the Chair read. 1378 K8N 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator Toohey - Mr Deputy President, I wish to speak to the point of order. Senator Murphy, correctly in my opinion, said that it was not right for the Minister for Supply to spend a considerable portion of his time questioning the motives of honourable senators from this side who have taken part in the debate. Possibly some speakers from this side did enlarge their contributions in the debate and did deal with matters other than the matter of Senator Branson's resignation, but at least they confined themselves to matters concerning the Committee. But Senator Henty has suggested that it is proper for him to introduce into the debate his beliefs as to why honourable senators on this side have done certain things. Senator Henty has been supported by the Leader of the Government (Senator Gorton). I submit that if this Senate accepts the proposition advanced by the Minister for Supply and supported by the Leader of the Government the result will be chaos in debate in this chamber. No good can come from honourable senators straying too far from the question before the Senate and indulging in fancy as to the motives of speakers from this side. Such a course would be absurd and could not be supported. I submit that the point taken by Senator Murphy is soundly taken. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! I ask the Minister to confine his remarks to the motion before the Senate. 1378 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I would be the last to ignore your ruling, Mr Deputy President. I was speaking in defence of Senator Branson. I know that this is a subject which the Opposition does not like. I was speaking only in defence of the action which Senator Branson saw fit to take. In doing so I used what honourable senators opposite regard almost as a nasty word. 1378 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - I rise to order. Will it be in order for honourable senators on this side of the chamber to debate the matter of defence and the Australian Labor Party's attitude on defence after the Minister has concluded his remarks? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! There is no substance in the point raised by Senator Wheeldon. 1378 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Senator Wheeldon completely misunderstood me. I referred to defence of Senator Branson's action. That was all understood. Honourable senators opposite hear a word and it brings them to their feet like a jack-in-a-box. This is an interesting experience. I come to the defence - I know that is a nasty word for honourable senators opposite - of one of my colleagues who saw fit to tender his resignation from the Committee. As soon as I mentioned defence up jump honourable senators opposite, taking points of order, because they do not like reference to defence. I am still prepared to defend colleagues on this side whenever necessary. I see no reason why I should not speak in defence of my colleague on this side just because the Opposition does not like the word 'defence' - because it runs away from the word whenever it is mentioned. I propose to use the word because I use it in the context of the motion before the Senate. 1379 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - What is the defence? 1379 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - If Senator Wheeldon does not mind the word why did he rise to order? Why did not the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Representatives take the opportunity to debate the subject? 1379 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - I rise to order. Will Opposition senators have an opportunity to discuss matters concerning the Leader of the Opposition in another place - matters which have been raised repeatedly by Senator Henty? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! The point is not upheld. 1379 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I am sorry if my remarks have hurt honourable senators opposite. 1 did not realise that they were so tender. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT- Order! I think the Chair has been sufficiently tolerant. I ask Senator Hentyto confine his remarks to the motion. 1379 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I was apologising to the Opposition. I had not realised that honourable senators opposite were so tender that one word would affect them so. I would not like to hurt them any longer. I conclude my remarks, no longer in defence of my colleague. 1379 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - This is a very serious matter. I suggest that the Leader of the Government (Senator Gorton) should not proceed with his motion to release Senator Branson from the Committee on the Australian Capital Territory. I shall confine my remarks to the motion; I do not intend to touch on the subject raised by Senator Henty. In two statements to the Senate Senator Branson made it clear that he does not want to resign from the Committee. He feels that the Committee should be charged with more power. He considers that having been commissioned to look into freehold leases in the Australian Capital Territory, the Committee should deal also with the matters of commercial and industrial leases. I have discussed this matter with Senator Branson. He wants to remain a member of the Committee. 1379 K2I 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator Branson - This is not so. 1379 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - All I can say is that Senator Branson gave me this information. Is it a fact? 1379 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - The honourable senator said that he would stay on the Committee if his fee was increased. 1379 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - Do not help me, Senator Gair. I understood that if the Committee were dealing with industrial and commercial leases, Senator Branson would remain on it. Is this so? 1379 K2I 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator Branson - No. 1379 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - I understood Senator Branson to say that he was resigning from the Committee because he wanted to see the function of the Committee extended. He said that the Committee had been emasculated. Let me read the honourable senator's letter. He wrote: 1 hereby request my immediate discharge on the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory, my reasons being: That the Committee cannot Fulfil a useful purpose so long as it can only deal wilh matters that are referred to it by the Minister and not by the Parliament. The particular circumstances at the moment whereby the Minister referred to the Committee only the question of freehold land in the ACT despite the fact that a unanimous request was made by the Committee to refer the related questions of City, Commercial and Industrial leases in the ACT. Senator Branson has decided to resign from the Committee, but after listening to Senator Henty he is not sure where he is. He is an important member of the Committee. He is a prominent member of the Government Parties. 1379 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - A leading member. 1379 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - A leading member, a member who might, given other circumstances, become a Minister. He has decided to resign from the Committee. He is a member of the Senate Select Committee on the Container Method of Handling Cargoes and also of the Public Works Committee. I am trying to leave the door open for Senator Branson to remain on the Committee because he seems to be displaying a very constructive attitude. I suggest that it might be appropriate for the Leader of the Government at this stage to adjourn the debate. That is the personal position. Senator Branson may consider that he has outstanding qualifications and he may have been hurt by Senator Henty's jibes at what took place tonight. I think the suggestion he made was a good one. He said that the Committee should be charged with a more positive role. Senator Toohey from South Australia who is a senior member of the Committee has supported him in this. Senator Devitt from Tasmania is also a member of the Committee. They have told us that the Committee might be a stronger body if it had greater powers and more positive commissions. I am just stating those points because I believe that it might be a good thing if the Leader of the Government were to consider what he has said in this debate in respect of the strength of the Committee. It seems to me in view of the debate that has taken place that this might be an opportune time for the Leader of the Government to decide that, if Senator Branson has not changed his original decision, the matter might be stood over until Senator Branson has satisfied his conscience as to what his future might be on the Committee, lt seems to me that in all these things what Senator Toohey has said explains a very strong motivation on the part of any Committee member. Senator Toohey, in supporting what Senator Branson said about the futility of the Committee, pointed out that it might be possible to make progressive improvements to increase the responsibility of the Committee. He said that this was the reason why he and other members of the Committee had decided not to resign from the Committee. In these circumstances this seems to me to be a very good reason why Senator Branson and the Government should leave the position as it is at present so that the functions and strengths of the Committee might be increased in the light of the new circumstances which have been reported to the Senate. 1380 KBW Tasmania 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Senator Branson explained to the Senate last night that he wished to be discharged from the Committee. The Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Gorton) has moved a motion in accordance with Senator Branson's wish. After some discussion today Senator Branson informed the Senate that he adhered to his intentions to request the Senate to discharge him from the Committee. I suggest that the Senate has great functions to perform and important matters to decide tonight in regard to large expenditure concerning public responsibilities. I hope that the Opposition will not continue to trespass upon the time that most of us wish to have to enable us to engage in those discussions by pursuing this matter, which is really an impertinence. Senator Branson's wish has been made plain and has been repeated. I rise in the hope that the Senate will acknowledge Senator Branson's right to request discharge and will allow the motion to proceed so that we can get on with the country's business and forget these frivolities. 1380 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - Senator Wright has not stated the position properly. The obligation of a senator is to serve on a Committee if he is appointed to it. He may be appointed to a committee against his will, but it is his obligation and his duty to serve unless he is excused by the Senate. If he is a member of a committee his obligation is still to serve unless the Senate excuses him by a motion such as this. It is not a right of a senator to be excused from a committee; it is an indulgence which the Senate grants to him. In this case much has been said about the motives which have actuated Senator Branson in asking to be discharged from the Committee. Iri is is not a mere case of some personal problem, some over-work or something of that nature which would induce the Senate, without question or discussion, to accede to his request. The basis upon which he made his request was such as to raise a serious question as to whether it should be granted. I understand that Senator Branson wishes to persist with his request. I understand also that the suggestion which has been made very well by Senator Bishop, that the matter should be stood over in order that further consideration may be given, will not be accepted. In these circumstances, notwithstanding the grave problems which have been raised by Senator Branson in detailing the circumstances which have caused him to ask for his discharge, I believe that the Senate should accede to his request and that we should accept this motion proposed by the Government. 1380 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - in reply - If I may say so, I believe that the remarks that have just been made by the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Murphy) are the only sensible remarks that I have heard from the Opposition in the course of this debate. The motion which is before the Senate at the moment is not a Government motion. It is not a motion that the Government wanted to move, nor is it one that I wanted to move. It arises out of a letter written by a senator to the President asking for discharge from duties on a committee of the Senate. In accordance with the wishes expressed by that senator in that letter, in the normal course of Senate business I moved, on his behalf, that the Senate should discharge him from the duties from which he had asked to be discharged. I did so because that was the only way in which he could be formally discharged from that duty. It could only be done by a motion of the Senate. How silly it would be if the Senate were to say no in spite of this request, if it were to say that it would not accede to his request and would not agree to discharge him from his duties. In that event he would still be formally a member of the Committee, but nobody could make him go and work on the Committee. Nobody could arraign him and say that he must give his mind to the Committee. Surely it would not be suggested that any honourable senator who did not want to work on a committee and who had asked to be relieved from it could be forced to work on it. This is a situation which has arisen before. I have been informed by the Clerk of the Senate that never on any occasion has a senator who has come to the Senate and said, as a member of a committee, that he sought leave to be discharged from his duties been refused leave of the Senate to be discharged. It is his decision and his request. This is not the result of a decision by me and does not arise from a request by the Government; it is a request by a particular senator and is put to the Senate. I know that the debate has ranged over other matters. There have been questions as to whether the committee on which the honourable senator serves should operate in some way other than the way in which it now operates. But this is not tied up with this resolution and I do not propose in any way to debate the pros and cons of that proposition. The result of any decision of the Senate on this request from Senator Branson would not have any effect on that because the Committee operates under terms of reference which have been laid down by the House of Representatives and by this chamber. These terms of reference are not laid down by a Minister; they are the result of resolutions by both Houses. The result of a vote on the request of a particular senator to be relieved of his duties would in no way affect the position. For these reasons and so that we can get on with some of the country's business - though this is the country's business, too - I suggest to the Senate that the wishes of one of its members as expressed to the President and as conveyed in my motion be acceded to. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1381 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Motion (by Senator Henty) proposed: That the Bill be now read a first time. Debate (on motion by Senator Cavanagh) adjourned. 1381 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Henty) read a first time. 1381 1381 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I move: That the Bill be now read a second time. This Bill declares the rates of income tax for the financial year 1967-68 on income of certain superannuation funds, trust estates and members of partnerships. The rates declared by the Bill are special rates which were declared for the first time in relation to the 1965-66 financial year for the purposes of legislation introduced in 1964 to counter tax avoidance arrangements brought to the Governments attention in the 1961 report of the Commonwealth Committee on Taxation. The rates have remained unchanged since they were originally introduced, and no change is proposed for the current financial year. For income of a trust estate, other than a deceased estate, to which no beneficiary is presently entitled and which is not taxed as if it were the income of one individual, the rate declared by the Bill is 50%. For income from a share in a partnership over which a person lacks, or is deemed to lack, real and effective control and disposal, the Bill imposes a further rate of tax sufficient to bring the aggregate rate on the income up to 50%. If a taxpayer's average personal rate of tax is 50% or more, no further tax is imposed under this Bill. A rate of 50% is also declared foi the taxable income of a superannuation fund that is not exempt from tax. This rate does not apply, however, to the investment income of a fund that is subject to tax only through the fund's failure to comply with the 30/20 rule concerning investments in public securities. The rates on this income are those contained in the Income Tax Bill 1967 and are the same as applied last year. 1 commend the Bill to the Senate. Debate (on motion by Senator O'Byrne) adjourned. 1382 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Henry) read a first time. 1382 1382 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I move: That the Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Income Tax Assessment Act to give effect to proposals announced by the Treasurer (Mr McMahon) in his Budget Speech. These proposals relate to concessional deductions and to provisions affecting primary producers. The Bill proposes an increase of $26 in the amounts of concessional deductions allowable for the maintenance of dependants. The deductions for a spouse, a daughter-housekeeper, a housekeeper, an invalid relative and a parent will each be increased from $286 to $312. The deductions for a student child under 21 years of age and one child under 16 years of age will be increased from $182 to $208, and for each other child under 16 years of age from $130 to $156. An increase of $400 is proposed in the amount of the concessional deduction for payments by a taxpayer to provide super annuation or insurance benefits for himself and his family. The new limit will be $1,200 for each income year. These increases in the concessional deductions will apply to assessments for the 1967-68 income year and subsequent years. For salary and wage earners, the benefits from the increased dependants' allowances are being reflected in reduced tax instalment deductions which have operated as from 1st October. The remaining amendments proposed by the Bill apply to primary producers. One amendment proposed will apply to primary producers who, because of drought, fire or flood, are forced to sell livestock. Under the present law, a primary producer who is forced to sell livestock in these circumstances may elect to have the profits of the sale taxed over a period of 5 years if the proceeds of the sale are used principally for the purpose of restocking. The Bill proposes an alternative method of bringing the profits of a forced sale to account for income tax purposes. Broadly, a primary producer who uses the proceeds of a forced sale principally for restocking may, in respect of sales in 1967-68 or a subsequent year, elect to have the profit on the sale applied to reduce the cost for income tax purposes of the replacement stock. This will have the effect of deferring payment of tax on the proceeds of a forced sale until the replacement stock are sold in the normal course of business. In some cases stock may be replaced by breeding rather than by purchase. In these circumstances, it is proposed that a primary producer may specify an amount of the profit of the forced sale to be included in his assessable income of the year in which natural increase is bred. If, by the end of the fifth year after the year in which the forced sale occurred, any amount of the profits of the sale has not been applied in either of the ways I have mentioned, the amount will be included in the assessable income of that year. In the past 2 years, the Government has introduced temporary measures to assist wool growers who, because of the drought, advanced shearing dates during the 1964-65 and 1965-66 income years. When this occurred, the proceeds of two wool clips would have been brought to account for taxation purposes in the 1 year. Provision was therefore made for these wool growers to elect to transfer the net proceeds of the second clip to the succeeding income year so that these proceeds were taxed in the year in which they would ordinarily have been received. It is proposed to continue the operation of these provisions for the 1966-67 income year and subsequent years, and to extend them also to advanced shearings brought about by fire or flood. The Bill also proposes the continuation, without any limit as to lime, of the special 20% depreciation allowances on plant and structural improvements used for primary production purposes. The final amendment proposed by the Bill is the allowance of an outright deduction in the year of incurrence for the full cost of subdivisional fencing erected on land used in primary production. At present, this fencing is generally subject to annual depreciation allowances at the special rate of 20% per annum. Boundary fences or fences around stockyards are not included in the proposal but will remain subject to depreciation allowances. The amendment will apply to expenditure incurred on subdivisional fencing during the 1967-68 income year and subsequent years. More detailed explanations of the Bill are contained in explanatory notes which are being made available to honourable senators and I do not propose to speak at greater length on the Bill at this stage.I commend it to honourable senators. Debate (on motion by Senator O'Byrne) adjourned. 1383 bill Bill received from the House of Representatives. Standing Orders suspended. Bill (on motion by Senator Anderson) read a first time. 1383 1383 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Customs and Excise 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON -I move: That the Bill be now read a second time. The Bill now before honourable senators proposes amendments to the Schedule to the Excise Tariff 1921-1967. The purpose is to enact, as from 17th March 1957, increased rates of duty on canned fruit. On the recommendation of the Australian Canned Fruits Board the rates of excise duty on canned apricots, peaches, pears and mixtures thereof are increased from 20c to 30c per dozen 29-oz cans - this is the basic con tainer size - with equivalent increases on other can sizes. It will be recalled that when the Government introduced amending legislation in 1963 to reconstitute the Australian Canned Fruits Board, it agreed to impose an excise duty on canned deciduous fruits entered for consumption within Australia so as to providethe Board with additional funds to assist the industry in developing markets for the greatly increased supplies of fruit that had become available. The proposal advanced by the industry at the time and accepted by the Government was that the maximum rate of excise duty that could be imposed would be 60c per dozen 29-oz cans with the operative rate from time to time within this ceiling to be decided on the recommendation of the Board. This proposal has the substantial support of canners and growers. The previous rate of 20c per dozen 29-oz cans yielded about $1.2m a year. This money is expended by the Board in exercising its functions under the provisions of the Canned Fruits Export Marketing Act 1963-1966 'to encourage, assist and promote the exportation of canned fruits from Australia and the consumption and sale outside Australia'. Over recent years there has been a large increase in the availability of canned deciduous fruits for export. Production increased from 7.3 million cartons in 1963 to an estimated 10.5 million cartons in 1967 and it is expected that the availability of fruit for canning from existing plantings will continue to grow. Home consumption accounts for about 3 million cartons a year, which means that at present pack levels about 7.5 million cartons are available for export yearly. In 1966 there was a record movement of 6.6 million cartons to overseas markets but even so the stock carryover assumed a relatively high level of 2 million cartons. Our main competitor, South Africa, is also increasing production at a fairly fast rate and has now taken over as the leading supplier in the major United Kingdom market. The funds obtained from the excise duty have enabled the industry to obtain some foothold in the major markets on the continent of Europe, particularly in Germany, where the sales level has risen from a nominal level in 1963 to about 800,000 cartons last year. The Board has also been able to intensify promotional activity in Canada with a corresponding increase in trade from 150,000 cartons in 1963 to 700,000 cartons in 1966. The Board, backed by canning interests representing a substantial proportion of production, and the central growers organisation - the Australian Canning Fruitgrowers Association - has sought the increases in duty now proposed so that additional funds will be provided for the further developmental work needed to move the increased supplies of fruit cur- rently available. The Government is fully seised of the need to give all reasonable assistance to the Board and the industry in their efforts not only to consolidate but to expand all possible overseas outlets for our canned deciduous fruits. It agrees that the Board will require additional revenue for the purpose at this stage. Accordingly it has been pleased to accept the Board's recommendation which, at present home consumption levels, will provide an additional $600,000 in a full year. I commend the Bill to honourable senators. Debate (on motion by Senator O'Byrne) adjourned. 1384 miscellaneous In Committee Consideration resumed from 17 October (vide page 1331). Department of Civil Aviation Proposed expenditure, $48,654,000. Proposed provision, $7,390,000. Motion (by Senator Anderson) agreed to: That considerations of intervening Divisions be postponed until after consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Defence. Department of Defence Proposed expenditure, $17,816,000. 1384 KTA New South Wales 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - For the purpose of the matters that I wish to raise, I relate my remarks in the first instance to Division No. 640, which provides for administration in the Department of Defence. The summary at page 152 of Document Alets out the following proposed expenditures: Department of Defence, $17.816m; Department of the Navy, $193. 132m; Department of the Army, $366. 102m; Department of Air, $297.71 lm; Department of Supply, $85.726m; and General Services, $ 1.830m. All these sums add up to an astronomical total. So while one might like to raise general questions relating to the Service Departments on the astronomical increase in defence expenditure particularly in the last 2 or 3 years, it is difficult to deal with them individually under the estimates for the Department of Defence. I suppose one has to wait until the proposed appropriations for the Department of Air, the Department of the Navy and the Department of the Army are before the Committee. 1384 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Are not all before us now? 1384 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - No, only the Department of Defence. 1384 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - I want to make clear to the Minister and to the Committee that I shall raise certain matters when the estimates for the Service Departments are before the Committee. If the Minister thinks that the matter to which I am about to refer relates to another department, such as the Department of the Treasury, I should like him to say so at an early stage so that I will not waste the time of the Committee now. Under Division No. 640, which relates to administrative expenses of the Department of Defence, I want to say something about the administration of the Defence Services Canteen Trust Fund. I understand that the Minister for Defence is the Minister appointed to administer the Defence Services Canteen Trust Fund Act, so I assume that this matter comes within the jurisdiction of his Department. 1384 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am informed that the Minister for the Army administers the Act. 1384 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND - That being so, I shall leave this matter till the proposed appropriation for the Department of the Army is before the Committee. I refer to Division No. 645, which relates to the recruiting activities of the Department of Defence. The schedule of salaries and allowances sets out particulars of officers involved in the general administration of the Department of Defence. Those particulars appear at page 296 of the Estimates. However, under Division No. 645 at page 153, which relates to the recruiting campaign, we see that provision is made for salarier of the staff of the Recruiting Directorate, for which the proposed appropriation is $64,500. 1385 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - For how many persons? 1385 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - This is the matter to which I wish to refer. The schedule at page 296 sets out a number of classifications but I cannot, see any designation that might refer to responsibilities connected with the recruiting campaign. Perhaps the Minister might explain to the Committee how many officers are involved in these activities of the Department of Defence. 1385 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Those particulars at page 296 refer only to personnel under division No. 640, not under division No. 645. 1385 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - That is what I am saying. So far as I can see, there is in the Estimates no indication to the Parliament of the number of officers in the Department of Defence engaged on specific recruiting campaign activities. As it is the Government's intention to send more than 1,000 additional troops to Vietnam in the very near future and as a great many of these will be national servicemen, it is surprising indeed to me that the expenditure for advertising under item 04 of subdivision 2 of division No. 645, which relates to the recruiting campaign, is expected to be exactly the same this financial year as it was last financial year. Bearing in mind the statement of the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) yesterday and also the envisaged increases in the establishments of the Army, Navy and Air Force, I should have thought that the Government would have been committing itself to larger expenditure in order to attract volunteers to the three arms of the Services. Perhaps the Minister might explain the break-up of the expenditure under this item, that is, the expenditure on Press campaign advertising, radio campaign advertising and television campaign advertising. In 1964 in another place the then Minister for Defence was asked how much would be spent on Press, radio and television advertising. As an ancilliary question he was asked how much would be spent in country areas in the financial year. He replied that the amounts spent on provincial advertising would be: Press, £39,000; radio, £8,000; television, nil. Of course, since 1964 television services throughout Australia have expanded considerably. There is a much wider contact and a much wider coverage. The amount involved is $1,300,000. The Minister should be able to give us some indication of how this expenditure is disbursed. I refer now to the entry in relation to a community survey, which appears in sub-division 2 of Division No. 645. I note that last year there was an expenditure of $7,000 and that no appropriation is proposed this year for this purpose. I should like to know what was involved in the community survey, how far it extended and what was its purpose. When one knows the amounts spent by public relations companies in conducting surveys, one realises that $7,000 would be considered to be a mere drop in the bucket. I should like some indication of the effectiveness of the survey. Finally, I refer to division No. 648, which relates to plant and equipment. There is just a bald statement that the appropriation is for plant and equipment. No indication is given of the particular nature of the expenditure. This year the appropriation has been reduced considerably below last year's expenditure. This year the appropriation is $324,100 as against last year's expenditure of $905,801. Doubtless the Department through the Minister can explain the reason for the reduction, but I suggest that it would be much easier to understand if the Department were to set out in documentary fashion an outline of the types of expenditure involved under a broad heading of this nature, without itemising individual purchases. They are the matters I wish to raise at this stage in connection with the estimates for the Defence Services. I emphasise that other very specific matters will need to be debated and discussed by the Senate when we are dealing with the estimates for the Department of the Navy, the Department of the Army and Department of Air. 1385 KBW Tasmania 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Before the Minister replies to Senator McClelland's queries, I wish to support Senator McClelland's remarks about the appropriation for advertising in Division No. 645 - Recruiting Campaign. The amount involved is $1.3m. I am interested not only in the dissection of it as between various media of advertising. I would also like the Minister to tell us of the performance of the recruiting campaign which would in the eyes of anybody who values money justify the continuance of an advertising programme at a cost of $l.3m. 1386 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - Let us find out the facts first. 1386 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - That is all right. I am simply asking that the Minister give to us not merely facts, but details of the results obtained. The advertising for recruits for the Services that I have seen has left nic completely cold and unimpressed, and almost repelled. 1 am doubtful whether the Senate should authorise a continuance of expenditure on this scale for recruiting campaign advertising. 1386 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON {9.24] - Senator McClelland asked first about the Services Canteens Trust Fund. As I pointed out, it is administered by the Army. When we discuss the estimates for the Department of the Army no doubt the honourable senator will direct his question to the Minister for Repatriation (Senator McKellar), who represents the Minister for the Army (Mr Malcolm Fraser) in this chamber. I do not think any funds are appropriated in the Estimates for the Services Canteens Trust Fund. I think it has its own funds. 1386 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - But a Minister must have the responsibility of administering it. 1386 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - When the estimates of the Department of the Army are being debated I think the honourable senator will find that there is no item of appropriation for the Fund. Senator McClelland also asked about people employed in recruiting, for whom an appropriation of $64,500 is made in Division No. 645 - Recruiting Campaign. The appropriation is to pay the salaries of officers of the Department of Defence who are engaged in recruiting; that is to say, the salaries of the Director of Recruiting, the Assistant Director and staff of the Recruiting Directorate, together with the salaries of certain staff directly employed in recruiting and information centres. This is not the sole salary component of expenditure on recruiting. I understand that the Services themselves provide officers under the direction of the Director-General of Recruiting who are paid out of the specific Services votes. I repeat that the appropriation for item 01 of sub-division 1 of Division No. 645 is for the Director of Recruiting, the Assistant Director and his staff, and some staff directly employed in recruiting and information centres. The increased appropriation this year is the result of a rise of $1,100 in salaries because of a new salary determination and the filling of a new position for part of the year. I do not have for Senator McClelland precise information as to the number of staff who are working for the Assistant Director. I do not know whether it is available. I would like to get it for the honourable senator if I could. Senator McClelland also referred to Division No. 648 ; Plant and Equipment. Part of the appropriation is for outstanding liability, as at 1st July 1967, amounting to about $125,000. The new items on which it is intended to spend the appropriation this year are as follows: A transistorised call system for the Commonwealth Police Forces, $4,400; a portable seismic alarm control, $800; minor equipment items for the Commonwealth Police Force at Alice Springs, $3,000; equipment items for Defence Cataloguing Authority - offset printing machine and collator, magnetic typewriter, auxiliary equipment for printing - $20,000; electronic data processing, equipment development, $6,500; Joint Intelligence Division - 2 multilith printers $5,000, 2 stereoscopes $2,000, photo enlarger $1,000, wire stitcher $1,000, and minor equipment items $2,400; Defence Signals Division - communications equipment $53,300, special purpose equipment $63,500, radio engineering $30,100, machine aids and development $13,500, computer operational maintenance $4,000, training and specialised maintenance $4,800, and general equipment $9,300. That is the list of equipment proposed to be bought with the appropriation for Division No. 648. 1386 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - What is the nature of the outstanding liability to which the Minister referred? 1386 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I do not have details of the actual items to which the outstanding liability is attributed. No doubt it is for equipment which was agreed to be bought last year but which was not delivered. In other words, an amount was left outstanding to pay for equipment ordered last year. If the honourable senator wishes, I will try to get a list of the equipment. 1386 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - I was wondering whether it related to one item or a number of items. 1387 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - It is for communication equipment, which no doubt would include a number of items, and tape certifying equipment. The honourable senator also referred to the appropriation for advertising in Division No. 645 - Recruiting Campaign. Senator Wright also referred to that appropriation. I am afraid I do not have a breakup of the expenditure on advertising as between newspapers, radio and television. I cannot give the honourable senator that information. I am told that it is flexible and changes every year. An indication of how it was spent last year might be of some value, but I am afraid I cannot give it. 1387 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright asked about the results obtained from the expenditure on advertising. I can give him only the recruiting figures for the Services for 1966-67. For the Navy there were 8,920 applications for enlistment; for the Army 12,673 applications; and for the Air Force 7,350 applications. I cannot tell him, nor do I believe that anybody else can tell him, how many of these applications would have been made if there had been no advertising and how many of them are attributable to advertising. As has always been the case, the number of acceptances was much lower than the number of applications. This is because some applicants failed to measure up to medical and educational requirements, and so on. In 1966-67, enlistments in the Navy totalled 2,364; in the Army, they numbered 3,292 and in the Air Force 2,279. That is the end result of our efforts to recruit people to our three Services. I have no doubt whatever that those figures would drop considerably if advertising were not engaged in, but 1 could not attempt to estimate the degree to which they would drop. I think all fair-minded senators will agree that the standard of advertising for recruitment in Australia is very good. The Press advertising, of course, one just reads, but the radio and, more particularly, the television advertising, has always impressed me as an individual as being a very good type of advertising very well carried out. That is all I can say. I could do no more than estimate - and my estimate would be no better than anybody else's - what part of the final result was due to advertising or what the result, would have been if there had been no advertising. 1387 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the amount spent on the recruiting campaign over the past 5 or 6 years. I should like him or his officers to explain why it is that about the same figure has been expended each year on advertising. The amount to be appropriated this year is $1.3m, and that has been about the average figure expended in each of the past 5 or 6 years. I emphasise that this figure was the amount expended on advertising during the years before the introduction of the compulsory call-up under the national service training scheme. I remember that in those days the Government was seeking to attract volunteers to the reserves, and Senator Paltridge practically admitted that the recruiting campaign seeking to attract volunteers was a failure. 1387 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - He did admit failure. 1387 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - It was because of this that the Government introduced the national service training scheme under which men are called up compulsorily. Because enlistment is compulsory the need for expenditure on advertising should disappear and I emphasise that the national service trainees now comprise approximately 90% of our Army personnel. I would have thought that with the introduction of compulsory national service training the cost of obtaining a full complement of troops for Vietnam would be cut considerably. But it has remained at much the same figure. I should like to know why the Department has not been able to cut the cost of advertising by at least 50%. I have made many inquiries into this matter, and I am convinced that the Government has not been really interested in volunteers over the last 5 or 6 years but has been working more towards full reliance upon the national service training scheme. Despite this, the advertising costs have remained the same. I would like an explanation of this, if there is one. 1387 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - In addition to what the honourable senator says about advertising costs remaining the same, the advertising media used have been extended. Television is used extensively. 1387 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - That is so. The Minister said in reply to Senator Wright that he should not be expected to be able to produce figures showing the amount of expenditure incurred in obtaining a given number of recruits. I would say that any properly organised efficient advertising department would be able to do that. With modern advertising of such things as foodstuffs or other commodities the agents can produce accurate figures as to the results obtained from advertising campaigns. I am surprised to hear the Minister say that the officers of the Department of the Army cannot give him some indication of the enlistment results from a given expenditure. I have been watching this position over the years. I have seen that the amount appropriated has remained constant. I repeat that I would have thought that with the introduction of national service training, for which no advertising is needed, the cost of the recruiting campaign would have been cut by at least half. The appropriation for this year for the whole of Division No. 645 is $1,573,500, and we are just about to call up another group of men. I should think that these men will be called up under the national service scheme which requires no expenditure on advertising. This appears to me to be a case of very loose accounting and I would like an explanation from the Minister. 1388 KAS Victoria 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I refer first to Division No. 645, subdivision 2, item 04, which relates to advertising. Can the Minister tell me the method by which the Defence Department carries out its advertising? Is it done through private organisations, or does the Department do its own advertising? If contracts are let to private organisations, can the Minister explain the manner in which contracts are arranged? I also have the same interest as other honourable senators in obtaining a clarification of the almost constant appropriation of $1.3m over the years for advertising costs. I refer now to Division No. 640, subdivision 2, item 05, which relates to the hire and maintenance of plant and equipment. The appropriation for this item is $335,300 and the amount actually expended last year was $250,248. What is it within the defence complex that we are hiring today? One would imagine that it would be office equipment or automatic data processing equipment, but I thought that the defence Services had equipment of this type of their own. I come now to defence Services generally, and what I have said with relation to the Department of Defence applies also here. Although the total allocation for Defences Services is approximately $662m I am concerned about the proposed expenditure of almost $18m, an enormous sum of money, by the Department of Defence. I think the people generally are reluctant to take too much notice of the accuracy of expenditure in this direction. I have read with interest comments which the Auditor-General has made and one would be inclined to hold the view that the people believe that there should not be too much investigation into expenditure in the various areas of defence. This perhaps is reflected in insufficient control being exercised by those persons who have been given the job of controlling accounting procedures within this and other defence Services. 1388 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Is the honourable senator referring to any division in particular? 1388 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Perhaps I could say Division No. 640. I was speaking generally in relation to the Department of Defence because the Auditor-General's comments on the whole defence area indicate in this year 1967 some carelessness in the control of accounting whether it be within Australia or overseas. One probably could instance many occasions on which the Auditor-General has had occasion to say either that an internal audit is insufficient or that the control of financing, even in relation to some of our overseas contracts, is entirely insufficient. I hope that the Auditor-General, in his report next year, will not have cause to comment about overpayments or insufficient control in accounting procedures in the defence Services. Mention was made earlier today of the difficulty servicemen in Vietnam are experiencing in obtaining postage stamps. Perhaps my remarks are not related directly to the Department of Defence; I merely say that I understand that during the last war no postage was charged on mail from servicemen overseas. I advocate a similar practice at this time. 1388 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - Senator Webster asked how the Commonwealth runs its advertising campaigns. There is in existence an organisation known as the Commonwealth Advisory Council on Advertising or the Commonwealth Advertising Council, I am not sure which, consisting of representatives of the big advertising companies in Australia who provide their services free to the Department of Defence to advise on the layout of advertisements, the general planning of advertising campaigns and so on. 1389 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Persons not connected with advertising media, I hope. 1389 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I am advised that some of them do control media of their own but they are- not connected with broadcasting stations. I may have to amplify that statement later. Nevertheless, I believe there is no financial advantage to those people. I was asked about the hire and maintenance of plant and equipment. The honourable senator was correct; most of it is office equipment. Some $76,000 is provided to cover the cost of the hire of office machines, the cost of computer processing of overseas data and the maintenance of office machines for the Defence Cataloguing Authority, and there is allocation of $4,900 to meet the cost of recurring maintenance on office machines. Tn the electronic data processing group $139,000 is provided for the maintenance of computer equipment, $18,000 for the maintenance of flexowriters, tape certification equipment and miscellaneous machines and equipment, as well as $8,000 for shop repairs. In the Joint Intelligence Division provision is made for $3,400 for the maintenance of miscellaneous office machines, and in the Defence Signals Division there is an allocation of $36,000 for the hire of punch card equipment; an allocation of $34,000 for replacement parts and the modification, repair and maintenance of machines; an allocation of $10,000 for spares for computer and air conditioning maintenance, and an allocation of $6,000 for tools and workshop necessities including expendable materials for maintenance. The bulk of this expenditure is for maintenance although the hire of some punch card equipment and some office machines is also included. I think the last matter the honourable senator raised related to accounting procedures and, in particular, to overpayments which have been criticised by the Auditor-General. My recollection - I think it is cor rect - is that those criticisms were directed against Treasury accountants overseas, particularly in the United States, who had made mistakes of that kind, rather than against any internal audit accountants of the Department of Defence. I think that is what the honourable senator has in his mind. Indeed, I think this matter is engaging the attention of the Public Accounts Committee which is now talking to Mr Harris, a Treasury official concerned with this aspect. Senator Ormonde said that he thought the advertising appropriation should be cut. 1389 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - On account of the reduced need for Army recruitment. 1389 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - That is the impression I gained. He believed the advertising appropriation should be cut because national service is providing a number of servicemen. This is a rather different attitude from that of Senator McClelland who said he thought the appropriation should be increased. To Senator Ormonde I say that the Army is calling up compulsorily more people, but the Army is not the only Service with which we are concerned. The Navy is made up entirely of volunteers who have signed on for long terms. So is the Air Force. Those Services have expanded considerably. I think the Navy now is twice the size it was, in relation to manpower, when I was Minister for the Navy. The Air Force has also expanded. However, u remains true that the Army cannot be built on short term national service trainees. There must be a constant and growing core of long term regular soldiers to provide the nucleus to keep the whole thing going. We need 10,500 volunteers in this- current year for this purpose. As the number of short term national service trainees grows, there is a requirement for an increase in the regular component of the Army. I do not think the other point Senator Ormonde raised is quite valid. 1 know that a company can expend a certain amount of money on advertising toothpaste and can say: 'As a result of our expenditure on the advertising campaign in this district our sales have increased to this extent'. Maybe that can be worked out. Expenditure on advertising may be an allowable deduction for income tax purposes. There may be some incentive to spend money on advertising for that reason. Maybe advertising agents are pretty good at selling things. Any way, eventually this kind of judgment is made. But I do not think that can be done in this field. Nor do I think - 'and I come now to Senator McClelland's suggestion - that it is necessarily wise to expand considerably in this area. 1 believe that what is needed is a fairly constant, steady level of advertising to keep the requirements before the public. If we try to saturate the market or to increase the advertising by, say, 50%, the extra return that we would or would not obtain from that is a matter of judgment. But it k not a matter of judgment - or, if it is, it is a judgment with which I agree - that we need to maintain fairly constant level of advertising of the opportunities in the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. We certainly should not let our advertising drop below that level. 1390 KPG Queensland 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - I did not intend to speak at all on this section of the Estimates but after listening to some of the evasive answers given by the Minister I feel impelled to ask questions too. The appropriation for office requisites and equipment, stationery and printing under Division No. 640 shows a tremendous increase over the expenditure last year. Whilst somebody is in touch with the position, 1 do not think the Minister's answer to a previous question about this item was complete. Last financial year the expenditure on this item was $289,962. This year the appropriation has been increased to $367,400. That is quite a substantial increase. We should be given more details of how that great increase has been brought about. I do not want to hear the excuse that it is .caused by increases in wages and salaries, or something like that. That is a favourite Government excuse for increases in expenditure which are not always brought about by that factor. I also refer to the appropriation for the hire and maintenance of plant and equipment. Senator Webster, who has now left the chamber, asked questions about this item. The Minister gave some figures which covered only part of the total appropriation. Those figures might have satisfied Senator Webster but they do not satisfy me. Unless I did not hear the Minister correctly, he said that advertising agents in Australia were providing free advertising out of their patriotic hearts. If the Government is receiving free services, I say that it should do the same as industry does and pay the appropriate fee for the service that is rendered, whatever it may be. If the Government did that we might have decent advertising. Perhaps the reason why the Government has fallen down in this field is that it is getting second rate advertisers to do the job for it. It is obvious that the advertising is false. Many youngsters in the Navy have told me at various times that they were carried away by the deceptiveness of the advertising for the Navy. The advertisments say: 'Join the Navy and see the world'. But these youngsters finish up on some land base, peeling spuds in the kitchen. A similar situation exists in the Army. Its advertising says: 'Join the Army and learn a trade'. But half of the men who go into the Army are unable to cope with the civilian world when they come out at the end of their period of training because they have not learnt a trade. Their parents were tricked into letting them join that arm of the Services. This may be put down to deceptive advertising. The Air Force advertising says: 'Join the Air Force and be a pilot'. But the number of youngsters who are finally selected as pilots is only a fraction of the number who join the Air Force with a spirit of adventure motivating them. If they are really unlucky, they will finish up as Mirage pilots and be killed anyway. 1390 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - They may fly VIP aircraft. 1390 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - They might be killed in VIP aircraft. Only the best pilots are selected for those aircraft, in spite of the fact that the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) tells us that they are used for training purposes. A fellow cannot fly a VIP aircraft and eat pie in the sky and sausage rolls unless he is an expert pilot. 1 refer now to the appropriation for medical fees in Division No. 645. Last year the expenditure was $82,013. This year the appropriation is $86,000. Who receives these medical fees? Do they go to private practitioners? Do they go to general hospitals? In respect of whom are these medical fees paid? Are they national service trainees? Are they members of the Citizen Military Forces? Are these fees for medical inspections of recruits or merely of some of the aged recruiting officers whom the Services have and who need extra medical attention? I wish to make one point in respect of the appropriation for advertising. Although the Government indulges in half page and full page advertisements in the metropolitan Press and to a greater degree in advertisements on metropolitan television stations, in the area from which I come - north Queensland - we hardly ever see a recruiting advertisement. According to the records, Queensland in general and Queensland country districts in particular supply more recruits for some of the Services than do other parts of the Commonwealth with comparable populations. Is that because Queensland is plagued with unemployment from time to time? Does the Government believe that it does not need to advertise in Queensland, particularly in the country areas, because in those areas, as a result of the seasonal nature of employment, most of the young people find themselves in dead end labouring occupations, are unable to make their way in civilian life and therefore are forced to enter one of the Services in order to earn an ordinary living. I have made those points because I was provoked into doing so by the Minister fobbing everybody off. In other words, he gave other honourable senators only enough information to keep them quiet. I am surprised at his doing that only two days after his elevation to the position of Leader of the Government in the Senate. 1391 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I do not think I will comment on Senator Keeffe's remarks about fobbing off questioners. I have been trying to give them the information for which they have asked. As this answer proceeds, if Senator Keeffe has any decency, I think he will withdraw what he has just said about the way in which I have been answering questions. He may or may not do that. 1391 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - What was it that offended the Minister? 1391 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I was referring to the honourable senator's statement that I had been fobbing off questioners and not giving them sufficient information. He said that I did not give Senator Webster information covering the question that he asked. I am not particularly offended. 1 am just making the point that what Senator Keeffe said is untrue. 1391 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - I added up the figures as the Minister gave them. 1391 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I will give them again. Senator Keeffe asked me about the appropriation for office requisites and equipment, stationery and printing under Division No. 640. He asked for an explanation of the increase of about $77,000 in the appropriation for that item. This year's appropriation is to be spent as follows: On the purchase of overseas item indent data, books, materials for reproducing forms and punch cards, printing the Defence Manual and copy-strip materials for the Defence Cataloguing Authority, $82,500; on general stationery requirements, $57,200; on the printing of the Defence Report and other pamphlets and books, $7,500; on stationery requirements at overseas posts, $5,000; on the purchase of security stationery and the purchase and maintenance of safes and combination locks, $2,000; on the purchase of books, maps and papers, $2,000; on the purchase of office machines, $1,000; and on the printing and special stationery requirements for industrial mobilisation courses, $700. The total of those figures is $157,900. Dealing with electronic data processing, an amount of $69,000 Ls set aside for special stationery including magnetic and paper tape. An amount of $7,500 is provided for special printing and reproduction services. For books for branch use the sum of $4,000 is provided and $1,500 is provided for office machines. This gives a total for electronic data processing of $82,000. Tn the Joint Intelligence Division the sum of $8,560 is provided for miscellaneous general stationery and office requisites. An amount of $3,000 is provided for a Xerox copying machine.- For photographic supplies the sum of $2,500 is provided. An amount of $640 is provided for office machines. For covers and binders $2,000 is provided and $10,800 for books, maps and papers. This gives a total for the Joint Intelligence Division of $27,500. In the Defence Signals Division the sum of $24,000 is provided for office stationery. printing and binding. The sum of $40,600 is provided for communications stationery. For special machine requirements $36,000 is provided; $2,000 for office equipment and $1,400 for books and maps. This gives a total of $104,000, but there is an amount of $4,000 which is recoverable, giving a total for the Defence Signals Division of $100,000. The total under item 02 is $367,400. The increase of $77,438 over last year's expenditure is sought in order to provide $48,696 for additional overseas data for the Defence Cataloguing Authority, $16,090 for increased requirements for executive staff, and $13,479 for the purchase of magnetic tapes for electronic data processing in order to return tapes at present on loan from the Services. There is also a minor increase of $1,190 which balances with the decrease in the Joint Intelligence Division. 1392 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - That is much better. 1392 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - No, it is precisely the same. I now move to item 05, which Senator Webster also asked about. At the risk of wearying the Senate I repeat what I said to Senator Webster. I will give the full figures as I did to Senator Webster. 1392 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - I do not think it is necessary to have them again. 1392 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - 1 asked the question, not Senator Webster. 1392 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I do not think I should weary the Senate with these figures. Despite what Senator Keeffe has alleged, 1 did give the full information. Let me run through it again. For the Executive the sum of $76,000 is provided for hire of office machines, cost of computer processing of overseas data and maintenance of office machines for the Defence Cataloguing Authority. The sum of $4,900 is provided for recurring maintenance of office machines. This gives a total for the Executive of $80,900. For electronic data processing, the sum of $139,000 is provided for maintenance of computer equipment, $18,000 for maintenance of flexowriters, tape certification equipment and miscellaneous machines and equipment, and $8,000 for shop repairs, giving a total of $165,000. For the Joint Intelligence Division the sum of $3,400 is provided for maintenance of miscellaneous office machines. In the Defence Signals Division $36,000 is provided for the hire of punched card equipment, $34,000 for replacement parts, modification, repair and maintenance of machines, $10,000 for spares for computer and air conditioning maintenance, and $6,000 for tools and workshop necessities including expendable materials for maintenance, giving a total of $86,000. This gives a grand total for item 05 of $335,300. 1 do not think Senator Keeffe was justified in claiming that information had been withheld on this matter. Senator Keeffe also referred to the proposed expenditure of $86,000 under Division No. 645, subdivision 2, item 03. This refers to expenditure on medical fees. The item provides for the payment of fees to medical practitioners for the medical examination of volunteers for the Permanent and Citizen Forces. They are civilian doctors and there is a set scale of fees laid down by the Treasury. The increase this year is due to an increase in the scale of fees and because of the fact that, where necessary, recruits are sent to specialists whereas formerly this type of examination was carried out by the Services. If a man goes to a general practitioner for a medical examination for recruitment and it is thought that he has something wrong with an ear or an eye requiring the opinion of a specialist, that man would be sent to a specialist and the vote for the Department of Defence would meet the specialist's fee. Formerly the Service vote would have met the fee. 1392 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - Who are the advertising agents who do the work for nothing? 1392 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I did not say that advertisements were inserted in media free of charge. I said that an advertising council was formed to give advice free of charge to the Department of Defence concerning the medium to use and the layout of advertisements. Nobody has ever said that the hiring of newspaper space or the drawing up of advertisements was free of charge. The council of advertising firms gives advice to the Government on the best method of conducting its campaign. This is done without fee. Our advertising is in newspapers, periodicals, on the radio and on television. None of these media is owned by members of the advertising council which gives advice to the Government. Those members are advertising experts who use media owned by other people. They are advertising agents; advertising firms. They do not own television stations, radio stations or newspapers. The radio stations, television stations and newspapers charge the same rates as they would charge anybody else advertising. The advice is given by people who do not own the media and therefore they do not get a rake off because the Government uses a particular media. 1393 JTT South Australia 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - I refer to Division No. 652 which deals with defence aid for Malaysia and Singapore. 1 imagine that the provision under this Division is a reflection of the statement in the Budget that $6. 2 86m would be given to Malaysia and Singapore for defence aid. Expenditure last year under this heading amounted to $8,036,462, the amount appropriated being $8.235m. Will the Minister say why so much less is being sought this year than was sought or spent, last year? Having regard to the recent statement by the Prime Minister (Mr Harold Holt) on Britain's withdrawal from this part of the world it does not seem realistic to be reducing our expenditure on defence aid in this region. However, there may be provisions under other headings to take care of any future programme on defence which the Australian Government may have in mind in the light of changed international events and new pressures and emergencies that might arise. i turn now to Division No. 655 - Other Administrations - Recoverable Expenditure. Under sub-division 1, item 01 in respect of the United States of America this year an amount of just over $lm is sought, less a certain amount to be recovered, making a total for Division No. 655 of $254,000. This compares with a credit last year of $257,000, which is very close to the amount of $254,000. I am interested in some of the detail in this factor. At the Minister's convenience I should appreciate some explanation of what is involved in this expenditure for which some amount is recovered. My prime interest at this stage is in relation to defence aid for Malaysia and Singapore and the reasons for the decline in the amount. 1393 KTA New South Wales 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator MCCLELLAND - Once again I refer to Division No. 645 and hark back to the recruiting campaign. The Minister will recall that when I first spoke on this subject 1 directed his attention to the item relating to community survey for which the expenditure last year was $7,000 but for which there is no appropriation this year. I am interested to know whether that community survey was concerned with the effectiveness or otherwise of the general recruiting campaign which has been conducted by the Department over the years. I pointed out to the Minister that compared with the cost of surveys which are conducted by private organisations an expenditure of $7,000 for the purpose of measuring the effectiveness of the recruiting campaign would be a mere drop in the bucket. But having heard what the Minister said about recruiting generally it occurred to me that the Government and the Department seem to be treating this item as merely a necessary evil instead of trying in some effective way to conduct a planned recruiting campaign or one which is an improvement on the present campaign. I have reached this conclusion as a result of information supplied to me this evening by the Minister in addition to other information which appears in the Estimates. What Senator Ormonde said about the amount of expenditure on recruiting activities having been static over the years is quite true. As far back as 1964 the total amount spent on recruiting campaigns in one financial year was $1,296,000. according to an answer supplied to me in November 1964. In other words, 3 years ago the allocation was exactly the same as it is today, despite cost increases and the extension of communication services, particularly television. I am rather surprised that the Department has been unable to supply a breakdown of the expenditure involved in recruiting activities so that we could know how much has been spent on advertising in the Press, on radio and on television. I should have thought that in compiling the Estimates for this financial year an estimate would have been made of the amount that would have been spent on newspaper advertising, the amount that would have been spent on broadcasting and the amount that would have been spent on television. I would have expected information to be available so that we could know whether the expenditure was in capital cities or in country areas. In November 1964 the honourable member for Bendigo (Mr Beaton) directed a question to the Minister or Defence on this subject. At that time in an answer to the honourable member the Minister for Defence supplied details of expenditure on advertising in the Press and on radio and television for all branches of the armed Services, separate amounts being shown for the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. I should have thought that if the information was available then it should be available now. After supplying that information in November 1964 the Minister went on to say that it was not possible at that stage to give precise figures so far as country stations were concerned but that arrangements had been made to advertise on country television stations in the following year. That would have been in 1965. He went on to say that in other respects expenditure would broadly follow the general pattern of the previous year. Bearing in mind the great expansion of television services that has occurred throughout Australia in the last 4 years I should have thought that the expenditure involved would have been much greater and the techniques used would have been quite different. The Minister has told us that an advertising council has been formed, that the council is composed of representatives of advertising firms who give advice to the Services on the layout of advertisements to be used. But I wonder whether any advice is given as to the newspapers in which the advertisements are to be inserted, the radio stations over which they will be broadcast and the television stations on which the tele-recordings will appear. Surely one of the first things that any person involved in advertising would try to assess would be a measurement of prospective readers and audiences. Advertising companies spend probably millions of dollars on surveys of this nature. Commercial television stations pay out great sums of money for the McNair and Anderson surveys which are conducted from time to time. Bearing in mind the importance of recruiting today I am rather surprised that the Department has no experts of its own rather than rely on outside people for this advice. As I have said, I cannot help thinking that the Government adopts an attitude of this kind towards this expenditure: I suppose we have to spend some money on advertising for recruits; otherwise we might be accused of not wanting them. It is rather significant that the expenditure on advertising in the last financial year was only $291 less than the amount appropriated. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to mc that expenditure reached the amount appropriated at a certain point during the year and the Department then said : 'We now have to cut out advertising because the vote for this item has practically run out.' I suggest that the Department must look closely at this matter and consider whether a planned and more effective technique can be brought into the recruiting campaign to achieve better results in the interests of this country's defence. 1394 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I propose to refer to two or three matters. Senator Davidson mentioned Division No. 652 which relates to defence aid for Malaysia and Singapore. The expenditure proposed for this year is less than the expenditure incurred last year. The honourable senator will recall that a 3-year programme was agreed to in which S25m was to be made available for defence aid for Malaysia and Singapore. The vote of S6m this years is the balance of that $25m. The Government announced a few days ago a new programme of aid over the next 3 years which will involve an expenditure of $16m for Malaysia and $4m for Singapore. However, the expenditure on that new programme will not begin until next financial year. The exact requirements of that programme are now being discussed with the authorities in Malaysia and Singapore. Before I come to the other matter raised by Senator Davidson in relation to Division No. 655 which refers to other administrations, recoverable expenditure, T should like to deal with division No. 645, sub-division 2, item 05, Community Survey' which was mentioned by Senator McClelland. The honourable senator asked why no amount is provided this year for this item. 1394 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - And what tha survey was last year. 1394 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The community survey was carried out over a period of U months extending over 2 financial years. Expenditure on this survey was finalised in the last financial year, the total expenditure being $36,000. A certain amount was provided in the previous year's vote, $7,000 being provided in last year s vote. The survey was carried out to make a report on the community's attitude to the Defence Services. The report was completed and has been presented to the Minister. The matter is therefore finalised. Moving on to Division No. 655 - Other Administrations - Recoverable Expenditure, 1 think that the best thing I can do is to give to Senator Davidson the information contained in a note which 1 have. The item provides for expenditure on a pre-payment basis on transactions on behalf of the Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is a civilian agency of the United States Department of Defense. The transactions involved are for services performed by Commonwealth departments and instrumentalities in connection with the construction and operation of the Joint United StatesAustralian Defence Based Research Facility at Alice Springs. Provision has been made for freight and handling charges, vehicle hire expenses, Postmaster-General's services, road construction and rental of accommodation. That is the expenditure. We expect the estimated receipts from the United States to be based on planned transactions under sub-division 1 less a credit of $257,046 standing in the United States account at 1st July 1967. 1395 KOO Queensland 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - Very briefly 1 would like to refer to Division No. 640, sub-division 2, item 05, which deals with the hire and maintenance of plant and equipment. The proposed appropriation for 1967-68 is not a substantial amount, but it is an increase of approximately $80,000, or 331%, on the expenditure for 1966-67. I should have thought that by this stage the Army would not bc hiring much equipment. I should like to know the type of plant and equipment which is being hired. Secondly I refer to the provision for postage, telegrams and telephone services under Division No. 645. Here the situation seems to be the reverse. The proposed appropriation for 1967-68 is $22,500 as against an expenditure of $20,311 for 1966-67. 1395 K8Y IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL - They are working on the old rates. 1395 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator HEATLEY - I do not care whether or not they are the old rates. In view of the increase in the recruiting cam- paign I am wondering whether the amount provided is sufficient to meet the demand. I intended to ask a question about Division No. 655, but the Minister has just answered a question asked by Senator Davidson in relation to that matter. I understand that the proposed provision refers to the Advanced Research Projects Agency in Alice Springs. My final query relates to Division No. 661 - Buildings. Works, Fittings and Furniture. Expenditure in 1966-67 was $904,000 and this year the proposed appropriation is approximately $Hm. 1 would like some indication as to the basts upon which this work is to be carried out. Is it to be done by tender, on a day labour basis or on some other basis? 1395 K8Y TASMANIA IND; AP from Aug. 1969; IND from Jan. 1970 0 0 TURNBULL, Reginald Senator TURNBULL I refer to Division No. 640 - Administrative. I should like the Minister to tell me, if possible, how far the review concerning the unification of the three Services has gone. Even before I entered the Federal Parliament 1 said that it was time we abolished the three Services as such and combined them. I know that this would horrify the civil servants. At the present time there are 14,000 civil servants catering for the needs of approximately 83,000 members of the permanent forces. It must be very gratifying to the personnel of the permanent forces to know that for every six of them there is one civil servant behind them looking after their needs. Australia cannot afford this. If other countries can do with one department administering the three Services, so can Australia. To me it is quite absurd that in a small country such as Australia we should have the head of the Department of Defence receiving $17,500 per annum and the heads of three other defence departments receiving $15,000 per annum, together with hosts of Deputy Secretaries and First Assistant Secretaries. I think I quickly counted 20 highly paid officers in the Department of Defence and 23 in the Department of the Navy, the Department of the Army and the Department of Air. Most of them could be eliminated with the unification of the three Services. Later on, when dealing with a different Division, 1 shall mention that the medical services should be combined. Apart from the savings that would ensure, at least we would get rid of three Ministers. 1396 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - In reply to Senator Turnbull, I can only say that I do not know of any review which is going on. I may be misinformed. I may not have all the information that I should have. I do not know of a review which is directed, as a matter of policy, to the unification of the three Services. I am bound to say that I think it would be a very retrograde step if the three Services were to be combined; I do not believe that the arrangement would work well at all. I agree with Senator Turnbull on one point. There are elements of the Services which I think could well be unified; the medical services appear to me to be a case in point. It is a matter of judgment and of debate. I do not believe that it would result in considerable savings in the number of public servants employed. 1 do not believe that the Parliament would be as well served if it had one Minister trying to answer questions for all four departments. I do not believe that the Services themselves would be as efficient or effective. But there is a great volume of opinion on the other side. However, this is not a matter in "relation to which we are at present seeking an appropriation. 1396 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator Heatley asked me a question about the hire and maintenance of plant and equipment. I have already given a very detailed answer on that item. I think that the honourable senator will see in Hansard a complete set of figures which cover quite a number of items. I suggest that if he is not satisfied with those figures he might bring the matter to my attention again. I think that Senator Heatley also asked a question about office requisites and equipment, stationery and printing. 1396 KPZ 0 0 LACEY, Robert Senator Lacey - Item 02 in subdivision 2 under Division No. 645 - Recruiting Campaign, was mentioned. 1396 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - All that I can say about that is that the sum stated is that which the Department of Defence estimates that it will be spending on postage, telegrams and telephone services in the course of the recruiting campaign this financial year. I have no doubt that if more is required, the Department will ask for it in the Additional Estimates. Perhaps Senator Heatley will explain to me why he thinks it should be increased or perhaps reduced. 1396 KOO 0 0 HEATLEY, William Senator Heatley - In view of the business that the Department is doing, and particularly because of the increase in postal charges, I believe that the amount sought could well have been more than is provided for here. 1396 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I have no other explanation. More than $2,000 in excess of the sum spent last financial year is being appropriated. We shall just have to trust that the Department is being wise in its forecast and that it is doing its business fairly economically. I hope that the honourable senator will congratulate it next year if that is the case. 1396 KPZ Tasmania 0 0 LACEY, Robert Senator LACEY - Mr Temporary Chairman, I should like to ask about a number of items of proposed expenditure. I refer to the provision for a proportion of the salaries of staff of the Commonwealth Loans Organisation under Division No. 645 - Recruiting Campaign. The sum of $46,500 is being appropriated. I cannot fathom how this expenditure is related to the recruiting campaign, and I hope that the Minister will enlighten me. I refer also to incidental' and other expenditure under Division No. 640 - Administrative, for which $67,700 is being appropriated. Under the heading of incidental and other expenditure relating to the recruiting campaign, in Division No. 645, there is an appropriation for $19,200. Whenever I have had to give a summary of income and expenditure, I have always been very careful not to use this kind of description. I believe that it is not good practice to do so, and auditors generally insist that it should not be adopted. These two sums together make a total of $86,900. That is a fairly large amount. The details of the expenditure of these sums are more or less hidden, though perhaps not intentionally. I am not charging anybody with trying to hide the details, but there must be some explanation of the manner in which the money is to be spent, and I ask the Minister to give me an explanation. 1396 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I can give Senator Lacey a breakdown of the incidental and other expenditure, for which $67,700 is being appropriated under Division No. 640 - Administrative. Under the heading 'Executive', the amounts are as follows: Rail, air and road transport freight costs, $16,500; entertainment expenses and miscellaneous expenditure for defence representatives overseas and for the Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee, $2,000; advertising, petty cash payments and miscellaneous, $8,000; medical expenses and compensation for staff injured on duty, $2,000; incidental expenditure at the Exmouth naval communication station and at Alice Springs, $2,500; industrial mobilisation courses, $2,000. The total under this heading is $33,000. For electronic data processing, there are the following sums: Medical expenses and compensation for staff injured on duty, $2,000; freight and cartage, $2,500; advertising and miscellaneous expenditure, $500. This gives a total of $5,000 under this heading. The advertising mentioned is specifically for civilian staff requirements, not for Service requirements. For the Joint Intelligence Division, provision is made as follows: Cost of replacement and return of officers located overseas, $2,000; advertising for staff $1,200; petty cash payments, tuition fees and miscellaneous, $2,500. This adds up to $5,700 for the Joint Intelligence Division. For the Defence Signals Division, the following provision is made: Freight and cartage, $11,500; furniture, fittings and services at overseas posts, $8,000; advertising, petty cash payments, training, destruction of waste and miscellaneous, $4,500. The total for the Defence Signals Division comes to $24,000. These in total make up the sum of $67,700 which is being appropriated. There are several instances of miscellaneous expenditure, which I think would come down to sums of $50, $35 and the like. I shall deal with incidental and other expenditure for the recruiting campaign, under Division No. 645, after I have heard Senator Ormonde. Senator ORMONDE (New South Wales) (10.37] - There has been some mention of the recruiting campaign this evening, and I am concerned to see that we get value for the money .that we spend on advertising in this campaign. I ask the Minister whether anything has been done to obviate the obvious waste of money and effort in calling for volunteers for the Army, the Navy and the Air Force and then rejecting a large proportion of them. One report that I read stated that one in every two applicants ls rejected for educational reasons. The inquiries that I have made lead me to believe that that assessment is correct. This high rejection rate represents a good deal of wasted effort and money, merely because of educational deficiencies. Has the Government considered establishing some educational service that can improve the educational standards of volunteers and thereby enable them to be recruited to the Services after they have attained the required educational standards? I believe that the standards set are not especially high and that some of the rejections are due to quite elementary deficiencies. In World War II, the Army had an educational service under which the recruiting section conducted training schools that helped to make up the leeway. Is there any such organisation at present to make it possible to recruit volunteers who would otherwise be rejected because they cannot cope with arithmetic or perhaps English at elementary levels? I have heard it said in this chamber that the modern soldier needs higher educational qualifications than those that were required of soldiers during the last war. Is anything being done in that regard and has it been possible to rescue - if I might use the word - any of the applicants who want to join the Army but have not the necessary educational qualifications? 1397 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - I should like to advert first to a question asked by Senator Lacey which I forgot to answer. It relates to item 02 of subdivision 1 of Division No. 645. He asked what was the significance of the provision for proportion of the salaries of staff of the Commonwealth Loans Organisation and what these personnel had to do with the defence Services. This item provides for a percentage of the salaries of persons assisting part time in the recruiting campaign. The Commonwealth Directors of Loans are the State Deputy Directors of Recruiting. They are able to devote part of their time to recruiting and they have a big network of agents throughout the States who distribute recruiting posters and so on for us. The Commonwealth Loans Organisation is used to avoid duplicating this network. The increase this year arises from increases resulting from salary determinations and the filling of positions that were vacant for part of last year. A question was raised by Senator Lacey in relation to incidental and other expenditure. I have not as complete a breakdown as he might like of the amount of $19,200. This amount is required to meet expenses in relation to removal to the new recruiting centre in Melbourne, which is expected to be open in November this year, and to provide advertising display fittings for offices of honorary recruiting secretaries. The breakdown of the expenditure by States is: Victoria and Tasmania, $5,850; New South Wales, $2,200; Queensland, $3,708; South Australia, $4,596; Western Australia, $2,846. This expenditure relates to the upkeep of the State recruiting centres and covers such items as office requisites, office services, and expense of removal to the new recruiting centre in Melbourne, of which I have already spoken. 1398 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde asked whether the Army had any method of educating to the pretty low standard required an applicant who did not meet that standard. There is no provision for that to be done. I understand that aptitude tests are applied to persons seeking to join the Army. Subject to the disabilities that all tests have, if those aptitude tests show that a person is likely to absorb Service training and do well in the Service the educational standards are dropped even lower than they would otherwise be. No school is conducted by any of the Services for educating recruits who do not meet the educational standards, though the Services do conduct apprentice training schools and the Navy conducts an academic school at Leeuwin. Senator BISHOP (South Australia) r 10.44] - I should like to refer to the question raised by Senator Ormonde in relation to recruits who are rejected because of their low educational standard. I have not figures and Senator Ormonde has not mentioned them. 1398 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - One in every two is rejected. 1398 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - Yes. The Minister would probably have the figures at hand. Many thousands of young people have been rejected and he might make these figures available. I know that in industry, particularly in my own State, when the question of setting high standard entry examinations for apprenticeships is raised most organised employers take the view that a young fellow should be considered on his general experience and that many young people who make the best tradesmen and apprentices are slow starters. In my experience the employers usually reject the unions' argument that the Leaving standard might be applied to very technical trades. I put it to the Minister that there is room, as Senator Ormonde suggests, for a group to be taken into the Services and trained. My second point is that I understand that there are frequent consultations between defence Service officers and industrial groups at which such matters as employment, classifications and techniques in industry are discussed. Has the matter of recruiting been the subject of consultation with people in industry? If it has not, will the Minister consider this form of consultation as a worth while method of increasing the number of young people who join the Services? I am sure that greater numbers of volunteers could be induced to join the Army. Quite a number of fathers have brought to my attention young people who were rejected because of their educational standards. I know that these young people were dedicated to joining the Services. It seems to me that it would be no great hardship to the defence Services to organise some sort of reception group by means of which these young people could be recruited, educated, trained, and fitted into various musterings and classifications. I should like to refer to another question but I am not quite sure whether it comes under the items that we are now considering. I cannot find in the estimates foi the Department of the Army a section in relation to medical fees and travelling costs. I am concerned about the case of a South Australian railway stationmaster who lost two days pay by going to have a medical examination for the Citizen Military Forces. Upon applying for recovery of payment for the time lost and travelling expenses he was refused both by the Army and by the South Australian Railways, which seems to me to be a very bad decision. If this matter does not come under the Department of Defence T shall raise it when we are considering the estimates for the Department of the Army. 1399 KH5 VICTORIA LP Minister for Education and Science 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - First I shall endeavour to elucidate the last point raised by Senator Bishop in relation to travelling to take a medical examination for the Citizen Military Forces. I understand that this expenditure would come out of the Department of Defence vote rather than the Department of the Army vote. It is the practice to pay for the overnight accommodation and meals of somebody travelling to take a medical examination for the CMF but not for his time away from work. I shall bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Defence (Mr Fairhall). It is clearly a matter of policy and I am glad that the honourable senator raised it. 1399 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop -I shall give the Minister particulars of the case. 1399 KH5 LP 0 0 GORTON, John Senator GORTON - The honourable senator may give them direct to the Minister for Defence or to me. In the latter event 1 shall pass them on. Two other matters raised are not directly related to a particular appropriation in the Estimates. I do not believe that discussions which take place between outside industriesand the defence forces are concerned with the education of people who apply to join the Services but are found to fall below the educational standard. The standard required is much lower than the Leaving standard. The discussions have been more concerned with industrial mobilisation of machinery and manpower, and that type of subject. It is not easy for young men to become apprentices in any of the Services and to gain entry to the Navy's Nirimba college, the college run by the Army, or the college, at Wagga run by the Air Force. Very good opportunities are provided in these colleges and there is always a very long waiting list of people who want to enter them. The training given is very good indeed. I think the unions regard it as very good and have no hesitation whatever in accepting the output of the colleges. The conditions under which the apprentices live are rather remunerative. Lads of 16, 17 or 18 years may have to live for a couple of years in the types of huts that servicemen lived in during World War II, but that certainly does not do them any harm. They certainly find conditions agreeable, because there are long waiting lists. A little choosiness can be exercised in selecting people for apprenticeship training given by the Services. Reference has been made to whether the Services should accept people who fall well below the educational requirements. I have pointed out that an aptitude test is given. If an applicant is found likely to be satisfactory, the educational requirement is not strictly applied. Whether applicants who fall well below the requirement should be accepted and educated to the required standard is a matter of judgment and policy. It is a matter of balancing the enthusiasm of people who are dedicated to entering the Services and who really want to do nothing else against the great amount of public money involved in educating them to the required standard.I can only bring the suggestion to the attention of the Minister for Defence. Proposed expenditure noted. Motion (by Senator Gorton) agreed to: That consideration of intervening Divisions be postponed until after consideration of proposed expenditure for the Department of National Development. Department of National Development Proposed expenditure, $33,549,000. Proposed provision, $43,987,000. 1399 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I wish to relate my remarks to Division No. 348 - Forestry and Timber Bureau. Honourable senators will recall that during the debate on the estimates of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation in reply I referred briefly, to Senator Sim, to a bush fire seminar held in Canberra 2 or 3 months ago. With the concurrence of honourable senators I incorporate in Hansard a list of the resolutions carried at that conference. 1399 miscellaneous Since high intensity wildfire is a national disaster in terms of both money and life, national wealth should contribute to its prevention and suppression. This conference recommends the Commonwealth Government consider setting up a professional fire-fighting service to supplement existing bush fire organisations in Australian States. Such » service should be highly mobile with appropriate modern equipment and should move from Stale to Slate, including Tasmania, in accordance with the progression of the fire season and the occurrence of fires. lt is believed such a system would provide continuous usage of highly trained fire-fighting personnel and sophisticated equipment, whereas existing local forces, because of limited local fire seasons and voluntary membership, cannot be expected to possess the most effective equipment. This service should not supersede existing fire services but should be used for immediate attack on major fires and particularly (ires difficult of access, in co-operation with local brigades. Equipment should include both fixed (s.t.o.l.) and rotary wing aircraft to be used for - fire detection; aerial ignition by prescribed burning; reconnaissance and mapping; attacks on small or slow tires in areas difficult of access; mopping up; and transport of personnel and supplies. lt is agreed that all wildfire should be suppressed. Reduction of fuel availability seems to be the most practical means yet devised of preventing the occurrence of large high intensity fires. Prescribed burning, properly executed, seems to be a means of accomplishing this economically over large areas. Aerial ignition under suitable circumstances would extend the scope of this. Prescribed burning is unacceptable in certain areas for a variety of reasons. Under these circumstances, an alternative method of fuel reduction should be considered, e.g. hand-raking, slashing, filtering, etc. When fuel reduction is not carried out, management plans should ensure that fire cannot escape from area. This conference urges all appropriate State government departments and all State National Park authorities (Lands, Agriculture, Forestry, Scenery Preservation Board) to make fullest possible use of aircraft both fixed and rotary in detection and suppression of bush fires - Fire detection; Aerial ignition by prescribed burning; Reconnaissance and mapping; Attack small or slow fires in areas difficult of access; Mopping up; and Transport of personnel and supplies. - Recently the Minister for National Development (Mr Fairbairn) assumed the title of Chairman of the Australian Forestry Council. Senator O'Byrne and I attended the conference held in Canberra on bush fire prevention. It will be seen from the list of resolutions carried at the conference that considerable attention was paid to the use of aircraft in bush fire prevention, not only for conventional purposes, but also for spotting and many kindred purposes. I raised this subject during the debate on legislation covering softwood plantings as well as the debate on the estimates of the CSIRO. Reports on the use of aircraft in fire fighting have appeared in the Press but the details given have been rather sketchy. I ask the Minister for Supply (Senator Henty), who represents the Minister for National Development in this chamber, to inform the Senate of the results of visits to North America by some of our forestry experts to procure certain aircraft. I refer to the Canadian aircraft for use as water bombers, for the dropping of chemical bombs or for other purposes. Members of the Opposition think that the Department of National Development should step up considerably the use of aircraft in fire fighting. We go further than that, as will be seen from the list of resolutions I have incorporated in Hansard-. We believe that the Commonwealth should create a national fire fighting squad. Since this matter was raised I have obtained from the Treasurer (Mr McMahon) details of the amounts expended over the last 10 years on bush fire relief. It amounts to many millions of dollars. I think that at present the Government is budgeting for the expenditure of about $8m more as a result of the terrible Tasmanian bush fires. I would like to get from the Minister in reply to my suggestion about a national fire fighting force more than a comment on what it would cost. If the cost of such a squad - it would be fairly large - is offset against the cost of bush fire relief, it is obvious that there is a reasonable financial margin. Greater use could- be made of more modern detection methods to supplement the activities undertaken at State level. I refer now to Division No. 345 - Bureau of Mineral Resources. Senator Henty will recall that recently I pointed out to him very forcibly that it seems fruitless that top flight officers in the Bureau should point out to the States the locations of deposits of limestone and other minerals while the States adopt an offhanded attitude and do not act on the suggestions made to them. I would like an assurance from the Minister that when research and surveys are undertaken by the Commonwealth, the Minister for National Development or his officers will confer with the State Ministers for Mines. Recently in a debate on the adjournment of the Senate I referred to tremendous agitation at the failure of the New South Wales Minister for Mines to make a definite decision on whether to give some combines approval to ravish the Blue Mountains area of New South Wales. The Department of National Development could furnish first class advice as to alternative sites for the operations of the combines. I do urge the Minister to do what he can to ensure that rather than pander to the cement combines the States will accept the advice of the Bureau of Mineral Resources based on surveys. I know that Senator Henty agrees with me on this matter, for he knows that at one stage there was talk of disregarding section 92 of the Constitution. I come now to Division 342, and remind the Senate of my previous argument with relation to attaching to the Department of National Development those divisions of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation which deal with bush fires and the preservation of wild life. For 3 years now I have been advocating that the CSIRO Division of Wildlife Research should be attached to the Department of National Development to work in conjunction with the development of mineral resources and forest areas. While I appreciate that the Minister might have some doubts about constitutional difficulties, I do not think it is impossible to arrange for the establishment of a small secretariat to avoid some of the conflict that occurs when we are told that in the interests of progress some of the natural habitats of our wild life have to be sacrificed. I believe that a planned partnership could overcome these problems. 1 come now to the Division of National Mapping. 1 should like to know whether this Division undertakes aerial surveys and, if so, whether charter aircraft are used for the purpose. 1401 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Senator Mulvihill has referred to the Australian Forestry Council and the work done by its fire fighting seclion. The Australian Forestry Council is comprised of the Minister for National Development and the various State Ministers charged with the responsibility for forests. As the honourable senator has stated, our forestry fire expert has just returned from a visit to the United States of America and Canada where he witnessed demonstrations by water bomber aircraft. He reports that most of the aircraft being used on this work at the moment are former World War II aircraft which are now nearing the end of their serviceable life and that new types of aircraft are being developed. This is an important matter and the effectiveness of the new types of aircraft being developed overseas is being kept under close scrutiny. That is as far as we have gone in this work up to date. The honourable senator also referred to the Wildlife Research Division of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation. He suggests that it be transferred to the Department of National Development. I do not hold that view. The function of the Department of National Development is to assess and develop Australia's natural resources. 1401 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - Canada has the set up that I suggest. 1401 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - That is so, but I am doubtful about the wisdom of transferring the Wildlife Research Division to the Department of National Development although I do appreciate that the preservation of wild life is an important matter. I have listened to the honourable senator's advocacy in this chamber over some years now and I know his interest in the preservation of our wild life. I share that interest fully with him, but I feel that this matter is better left with the CSIRO. I appreciate his point that when we are carrying out developmental works either in our mineral areas or in our forests we should keep in mind the necessity and practicability, of taking steps to preserve our wild life. In the United Kingdom for instance, wild life is sometimes transferred to other areas. I appreciate that, through neglect in former years, some forms of our wild life have become extinct. This is a very interesting matter, but I believe that the preservation of wild life should be left in the hands of the CSIRO. The honourable senator also asked whether the Division of National Mapping charters aircraft. It does. It is proposed that new contracts shall be let during 1967-68 for a number of operations. These include helicopter charter in the Northern Territory for the 1967 season for ground station marking in desert areas for Aerodist surveys. The amount set aside for this work is $36,000. Another operation is helicopter charter in the Northern Territory during the 1963 season for ground station marking and for the transport of remote station crews to otherwise inaccessible areas during Aerodist surveys. The sum provided is $72,000. The sum of $16,000 is being provided for the hire of twin-engined fixed-wing aircraft for laser airborne profile recording operations. During 1966-67, the Weapons Research Establishment commenced the development of an airborne profile recorder activated by a laser beam. This development will continue during 1967-68 and present indications are that an operational model will be ready for use in April or May 1968. The sum of $10,000 is provided for the hire of light aircraft for spot photography. It is proposed to expend $3,500 on the hire of light aircraft for second order traverse reconnaissance in Western Australia and $13,500 on the hire of a helicopter in Western Australia for second order traverse during August and September 1967. The total amount involved in these programmes is $151,000. The honourable senator referred to use of limestone in New South Wales. I am sorry that I cannot give him any information beyond that contained in the answer I gave to him on the occasion when he last referred to the matter. 1402 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - I thought you would support my submissions to the New South Wales Minister for Lands. 1402 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I would be happy to help. If the honourable senator wants to know the locality of other areas of limestone which can be worked economically, I am sure that the Bureau of Mineral Resources will be happy to tell him. But he will have to evince the interest. 1402 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill - I have sent the State Minister the latest bulletin but I think it wants ministerial backing. 1402 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I think the honourable senator has given the Minister all the information he is entitled to at the moment and I thank him for the help he has given to me in this work. If the honourable senator has any difficulty I am sure the Bureau of Mineral Resources will be only too happy to let him know what limestone resources there are. 1402 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I should also like to refer to the use in the United States of America of Convair aircraft to study the extent to which lightning may -be responsible for starting forest fires. I am wondering whether the Commonwealth experts looked at this aspect when they were overseas. It may be that the methods being investigated over there would not be practicable here because of the different variety of trees but I did notice an article in either 'Time* or 'Newsweek' within the last. 6 or 7 weeks which indicated that the Americans were on the verge of a breakthrough in the use of cloud seeding to prevent forest fires. I am wondering whether our experts have any information on this matter? 1402 K3W Western Australia 0 0 CANT, Hartley Senator CANT - I refer to Division No. 932 - Department of National Development - Capital Works and Services. The appropriation for 1967-68 for this Department is some $3.3m less than expenditure last year. I should have thought that national development would have been the most important thing in Australia today having regard to the situation in which Australia finds itself, particularly in relation to drought. There is also a reduction of $2.5m in the allocation to the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority. The total reduction probably amounts to more than that because at the foot of page 11 of Appropriation Bill (No. 2) is a note which reads: 'In addition $4,449,797 charged to Loan Fund'. The whole world is becoming very interested in the development of atomic energy. A considerable sum of money is being spent in America on what is known as the Plowshare scheme, and there is a degree of agitation in Australia for atomic energy to be used on water conservation projects and the development of harbours. I should have thought that this Government would have been anxious to develop atomic energy in Australia. The comparatively small expenditure of $1,629,000 last year under the Atomic Energy Act has been reduced by $300,000 this year, at a time when there is talk that within the next decade there will be atomic energy in Victoria and a requirement for atomic energy in South Australia. In addition, if we are to develop the minerals in the north of Western Australia to the processing stage it is quite likely that we will require atomic energy in that area. Yet expenditure has been cut to the extent of $300,000. It is not my purpose at this stage to argue the merits of the Chowilla Dam which happens to be one of the tragedies of this Government's bad planning in relation to State water supplies. Proposed expenditure under the River Murray Waters Act has been reduced from $645,000 last year to $315,000 this year. I do not know whether the Government is trying to recover on the side part of the $5m which has been spent on the Chowilla Dam. Although water is the most precious commodity that we have in Australia we find this considerable reduction in proposed expenditure. The conservation of water is the most important subject that should be exercising the mind of any responsible Commonwealth government because today we have three States - South Australia, Victoria and New South Wales - experiencing a severe drought. National development, particularly in the field of water conservation, is something in which the Government should be taking a much keener interest. If it took as much interest in water conservation as it does in maintaining good relations with the United States we might be able to develop this country. 1403 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Water not war. 1403 K3W 0 0 CANT, Hartley Senator CANT - We might be able to put out the fires of war with water if we had the water to produce enough food to feed the hungry millions in the world today. If we could do that there perhaps would not be the rush for nationalisation that we see in so many countries. I should like some explanation from the Minister for the reductions in proposed expenditure that I have mentioned. I -shall list them. In the first place, expenditure on plant and equipment in the Department of National Development is being reduced by $100,000. Secondly, proposed expenditure under the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Power Act is being reduced by $2.5m. I appreciate that the Authority is in the winding up stage and that in the next 5 years it will cease to exist. The brains that we have been able to gather together over the years to perform one of the major engineering projects in the world - something of which Australia is proud - will be spread probably throughout the world, cer tainly throughout Australia. But even though the scheme is drawing to a close there is plenty of work upon which the specialists we have gathered together in the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority could be engaged. The Minister may say that the $2.5m reduction is the result of a slackening off in work on the scheme but that is not sufficient to satisfy the people of Australia. There should be an ever-expanding process of employment of these specialists on other projects. Thirdly, the people of Australia, and indeed this Parliament, are entitled to know why expenditure under the Atomic Energy Act is being reduced by some $300,000 particularly in these days of vital development in the peaceful uses of atomic energy. Finally, I am sure that the Premier and the people of South Australia would be very interested to know why expenditure under the River Murray Waters Act is also being reduced by $300,000. 1403 KOW Tasmania LP Minister for Supply 1 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - Senator Mulvihill raised the question of seeding clouds from Convair aircraft. I am advised that this matter was not studied specifically by our representative who was overseas and has returned only in the last few days but we will pursue our inquiries to see whether he has any information on it. Senator Cant referred to the proposed expenditure of $41,582,000 by the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority in 1967-68. That is the amount required to enable the Authority to carry out its programme of work in that year. As he said, the work is now tapering off and it is only to be expected that smaller sums of money will be required. He referred also to the Chowilla Dam. I take him up on that. This has nothing to do with the Commonwealth Government. The planning was done by the South Australian authorities. The River Murray Commission comprises representatives of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, and the Commonwealth Minister for National Development acts as Chairman. The project is under review at the moment. Its development is in abeyance whilst further investigations of it are being made. We debated this matter in this chamber only quite recently. Tt was a very interesting debate. 1403 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Does not the Commonwealth expenditure on that project come under a special Act? 1404 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - The Commonwealth meets one-quarter of the cost. 1404 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - But that is under a special Act, not under these appropriations, is it not? 1404 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I am advised that it is not under a special Act. The Commonwealth meets one-quarter of the cost. The rest is met by the States of Victoria. New South Wales and South Australia. It is quite wrong for Senator Cant to say that this deferment is the result of Commonwealth Government bungling. It is nothing of the sort. At the request of the States, the Commonwealth Government is meeting one quarter of the cost. The River Murray Commission handed over to the South Australian authorities responsibility for the completion of the plans and specifications for this dam. That work was done by the South Australian authorities, who made an estimate of about $28m, if my memory serves me correctly. Later they amended the estimate to $43m. Then, on the basis of the work done by the South Australian Authorities, tenders were called and they showed a cost of about $70m. The project is now being reviewed by the River Murray Commission, an independent authority on which New South Wales, South Australia and Victoria are represented and on which the Commonwealth has a representative because it has accepted responsibility for meeting one-quarter of the cost. So 1 must take Senator Cant up on this matter and say that he is quite wrong when he says that this deferment is the result of bungling by the Commonwealth Government. It is nothing of the sort. For various reasons an attempt has been made to saddle the Federal Government with the blame for this deferment, but the project has nothing to do with the Federal Government, except that it meets, one-quarter of the cost. I believe that out of the review that the River Murray Commission is now undertaking will come a far more satisfactory solution for South Australia and the people who will use this water. The area required may be a little less than was thought at first, as a result of the investigations that are now taking place. I do not pose as an authority on this project, but because it was mentioned in this chamber - and because I am interested in this type of work I have read a good deal about it. I believe that out of this review will come a scheme that will be more acceptable than the present one which, at a cost of about $70m, docs not seem to be as satisfactory as it should be. Senator Cant referred to a reduction in the capital works and services appropriation for the Australian Atomic Energy Commission. The reduction is due to a decrease in construction expenditure in 1967-68 because of the completion of some major projects. That decrease is partly offset by an increased provision for scientific plant and equipment. In other words, the construction of some buildings has been completed and the Commission is now purchasing plant and equipment to go into those buildings. This is part of the planned construction programme. An examination of the point that Senator Cant raised in relation to the Atomic Energy Commission leads me to say that in the next 10 years there will be great development in the use of atomic energy for peaceful purposes including power. I think that is accepted by all authorities. When the Commonwealth was considering making money available to the Tasmanian Government for the Gordon River scheme - $48m was made available in the form of bridging finance - I asked the Department of National Development to investigate that scheme vis a vis the use of atomic energy by the time it was finished. I am indebted to the officers of the Department. They gave me an excellent report to the effect that it would appear that it will be 10 years before atomic plants become economically competitive in the production of electricity. They considered that the Gordon River scheme would be of great economic benefit to Tasmania. But atomic plants are undoubtedly coming. They will be of great benefit in outlying areas of Australia. In America at the present time smaller plants are being developed. They could be situated in various parts of the Australian outback and could give a considerable boost to development. I would not like anyone to think that the Australian Atomic Energy Commission is not keeping closely in touch with the developments in this field. If Senator Cant wants any advice on this matter, I would strongly advise him to put his problems to the Commission. He will receive the same help as I received in trying to assess whether the Commonwealth should provide bridging finance to the extent of $48m to the Tasmanian Government and the HydroElectric Commission and whether the Commonwealth should use the money of the Australian taxpayers in that way without first knowing the economics of the great Gordon River scheme and whether atomic energy could compete or more than compete with hydro-electric power in the years that lie ahead. The departmental officers satisfied me on that question. I am greatly indebted to them for what they did. 1 am sure that if Senator Cant wanted any further information on this matter the departmental officers would make it available to him. I think I have covered fairly well all the matters that Senator Cant raised. If I have missed any, I would like him to tell me now so that I can do what I can to answer any questions that I have omitted to answer. 1405 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - I refer to Division No. 350 under which $444,000 is appropriated for the Joint Coal Board. I have not yet seen the report of the Board for the last financial year. I ask the Minister whether it is available. Consideration interrupted. 1405 10000 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood - Order! In conformity with the sessional order relating to the adjournment of the Senate, I formally put the question: That the Temporary Chairman do now leave the chair and report to the Senate. Question resolved in the affirmative. (The Temporary Chairman having reported accordingly) 1405 adjournment 1405 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman) - Order! In conformity with the sessional order relating to the adjournment of the Senate, I formally put the question: That the Senate do now adjourn. 1405 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I wish to refer briefly to an aspect of naval administration. I refer to the Navy's policy of stockpiling spare parts for the Charles F. Adams class destroyers. 1405 KOW LP 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator HENTY - I rise to order. We will be dealing tomorrow with the estimates for the Department of the Navy. Could the honourable senator reserve this matter until then? 1405 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - The Standing Orders require that when a point of order has been taken, the honourable senator having the call should resume his seat. I ask that the Standing Orders be observed. 1405 KOW 0 0 HENTY, Norman Senator Henty - I do not wish to deprive Senator Mulvihill of anything, but as we will be dealing tomorrow with the estimates for the Department of the Navy, perhaps he could raise this matter then. 1405 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - Nobody knows whether the projected schedule will be followed tomorrow. I am informed that due to an error on the part of the people who went to the United States to purchase the Charles F. Adams destroyers, when certain furnace repairs are being done in Australia on these destroyers, the American fire brick is not available. Instead of the numbered fire brick being available, considerable improvisation is necessary. 1 do not belittle the efforts of our artificers or ordnance staff. It is obvious that the people whom we sent overseas to shop for this sophisticated defence equipment committed a grave error in not ensuring that the United States manufactured fire brick was available in Australia. What assurance have we that this oversight will be rectified? The Navy is not on a war footing but this oversight in not providing the correct fire bricks is not a good advertisement for the procurement methods employed by the Navy. I do not doubt the ability of our craftsmen to improvise but I do not think this should be necessary. Senator Bishop and I know something about the use of fire bricks in locomotive fire boxes. We know that the wrong brick can lead to a lot of difficulty. 1405 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - He has not been inside a fire box. 1405 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - Who has not? 1405 KKP 0 0 GAIR, Vincent Senator Gair - Senator Bishop. 1405 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - We can soon settle that. There has been a degree of oversight on the part of somebody. I look forward to an explanation and to an assurance that this will not happen in the future. 1406 KTL New South Wales CP Minister for Repatriation 0 0 MCKELLAR, Gerald Senator MCKELLAR - Senator Mulvihill paid me the courtesy of informing me that he intended to raise this matter. I was able to get some information for him. Fire bricks fitted to the Royal Australian Navy guided missile destroyers are, naturally, made to United States Navy specifications. To ensure serviceability to the guided missile destroyers an initial supply of spares was obtained from the United States. However, the United States Navy specifications for the guided missile destroyer fire brick requirements have been obtained and following satisfactory manufacture of fire bricks, future requirements will be obtained locally. Question resolved in the affirmative. Senate adjourned at 1.1.36 p.m.