1969-05-01 26 2 3 SENATE 1137 0 1969-05-01 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) took the chair at 1 1 a.m., and read prayers. 1137 miscellaneous 1137 Senator MCCLELLAND presented from 1 14 citizens of New South Wales a petition showing that the decision of the Government to lift the 40-year ban on the export of merino rams will do irreparable harm to the present and future merino wool industry of Australia; that the initial quota of 300 rams will be sufficient to make any future protest worthless; and that the production of fine medium quality merino wool in cheap labour countries will put the Australian merino wool grower and ail connected with this industry out of business. The petitioners pray that the Government will cause to be held a referendum of wool growers to determine this issue. Petition received and read. 1137 Questions 1137 1137 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - My question is directed to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. How does it come about that there is a prohibition against Australian senators and members of the House of Representatives visiting joint AustralianUnited States installations in Australia, such as Woomera, when there is no such prohibition against United States senators and representatives visiting such installations? 1137 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I am certain that the honourable senator's question is based on a false premise. There is no prohibition on Government or Opposition senators or members of the House of Representatives visiting Woomera. Indeed, the general public can visit Woomera in certain circumstances after making the normal representations. I think the honourable senator is making some presumptions in relation to future proposals for a certain area in Woomera. His question is completely hypothetical. If he has in mind the Pine Gap establishment - his question was not directed to that but I shall give him a little supplementary infor mation - the situation is that some visits were made to that area in the early stages. I visited the establishment myself, as did also Mr Whitlam. The Minister for Defence, in answer to a written question by the honourable member for Yarra, Dr Cairns, in another place, set out the conditions in relation to Pine Gap and I do not feel that I need to add anything here to what he said in response to that question. 1137 1137 KSW 0 0 MAUNSELL, Charles Senator MAUNSELL - I address a question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. In view of the deteriorating drought position in Queensland and the need for urgent action, can the Minister inform the Senate when a decision can be expected from the Federal Government with relation to the request from the Queensland Government for assistance? 1137 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - Yesterday I was asked a question in relation to this matter and I indicated that the Government was considering representations that were being made to the Commonwealth by the Queensland Government. I acknowledge, as I think we all do, that a serious drought condition has prevailed and is still prevailing in a part of Queensland. In another place this morning, I think, the same question was directed to the Prime Minister and he made a statement in relation to the matter. I have not the complete text of what he said, but I am quite certain that a statement will be made by the Prime Minister's Department on this matter. My understanding is that a short time ago the Prime Minister advised the Parliament that the Commonwealth Government had indicated to the Queensland Government not only a recognition of the drought conditions that prevail there but also that the Commonwealth will make a substantial contribution to that State. I repeat that at this point of time I am not relying on the precise detail of the statement, but my understanding of the announcement by the Prime Minister was that the Commonwealth will agree to an extension of Commonwealth assistance to cover freight rate rebates on the movement of non-starving stock for slaughter from drought areas. If the State wishes to proceed with a scheme for the sale of wheal to drought affected farmers on 12 months credit at 4}%, the Commonwealth will ask the Wheat Board to institute such a scheme. The Commonwealth will be prepared to meet one half the expenditure in 1968-69 lip to $4m plus the whole of the expenditure in 1968-69 in excess of $4m on this special drought relief. There was also an indication that it will throw open the Shoalwater area which is held by the Commonwealth Government to provide additional food for stock in that area. 1138 1138 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - I address a question to the Leader of the Government. Does the statement made yesterday in another place by the Minister for Primary Industry, Mr Anthony, that negotiations are proceeding with the wool industry on implementing merino ram exports mean that the Government will ignore the adverse Senate vote? As obviously legislation to lift the ban would be rejected by the Parliament, is the position that the Cabinet believes its executive power overrides Parliament? Would the Minister agree that this raises serious constitutional issues? 1138 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - It is true that the relationship between the two Houses is a constitutional matter. As I understand the position if, by way of resolution, the Senate expresses a view or takes action in relation to a Bill, then quite clearly this is a matter that has to be considered by the Government. I think it would be premature to make any assumptions in relation to the obvious consideration that the Government will have of a resolution that was passed in this place, but I do fee] that the honourable senator may be reading into the statement made by Mr Anthony something which would not be intended. Mr Anthony has made a statement of the proposal. The Senate has expressed a view about it and. in the normal processes of our constitutional bicameral system of government, the views of the Senate will obviously be considered by the Government 1138 1138 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I address my question to the Leader of the Government. I refer to the answer given by him to the Leader of the Opposition concerning access to the joint defence facility at Woomera which has been the subject of discussion in Parliament this week. I suggest to the Minister that his answer has left us all very much in the dark. I would like to ask him specifically: Is there to be a prohibition against Australian senators and members of Parliament visiting this installation? Further, will there or will there not be a prohibition against US senators and congressmen visiting the installation? 1138 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - Yesterday I was asked a question about the statement made in another place and I said that I was not prepared to make any comments beyond what was in the statement. The facts are that Woomera at present is under the jurisdiction of my Department. There are restrictions on entry to the Woomera complex but they are not restrictions which preclude visits by parliamentarians under certain conditions. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is trying to draw me into a debate or argument as to what the future holds in relation to a proposed establishment in the Woomera area. Quite frankly I am not going to respond to that attempt because I rely completely on what was said in the statement made in the other place in relation to this matter. 1138 1138 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - My question, which is addressed to the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, relates to the allocation of free time on the Australian Broadcasting Commission's radio and television stations for use by political parties in making their claim to office known to the Australian public. Will the Minister discuss with the Postmaster-General the proposition that he and the Chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Commission review completely the present criteria in accordance with which the Commission allocates time for this purpose, so that all recognised political parties in the State and Federal Parliaments may receive an adequate allocation of time and so that the claim for time by recognised independent members will not be disregarded? 1138 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The honourable senator's question refers to the time allocated to political parties for Australian Broadcasting Commission broadcasts. He has expressed the view that adequate time should be given to representatives of all recognised parties. I will place this question and the honourable senator's opinion before the Postmaster-General and discuss the matter with him. 1139 1139 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - I ask the Leader of the Government whether he can advise the Senate of the future sitting days of the Senate, and particularly of the possible rising date in May. Does the Government expect that the Parliament will rise on Thursday, 22nd May or Thursday 29th May? The Minister will realise the importance of this matter in order that honourable senators will be in a position to arrange their work and their electoral programme. 1139 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - At the moment my understanding of the arrangements is thai we will rise this afternoon and will not sit next week. Then we will have 3 weeks of sittings which will take us to 29th May. 1 cannot give more accurate information than that at this time. If there is a possibility of the Parliament rising earlier, obviously I will make that information available as soon as possible to the leaders of other parties and, indeed, to the whole Senate. For the purpose of future planning by honourable senators - and I recognise they all have commitments when we are not in session - they may assume that Parliament will be sitting until 29th May. 1139 1139 CAK 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator RAE - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Prime Minister. Has the Government received a request from the Tasmanian Government for a grant or other assistance towards the construction of a rail link from Launceston to its container feeder port and its general port at Bell Bay? If not, can the Minister indicate whether the Commonwealth Government would give consideration to such a request if it were made by the Government of Tasmania? 1139 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - From time to time questions are directed to me about representations made by various States to the Commonwealth for special assistance to carry out special projects. I always reply - and I reply in the same terms today - that these matters are dealt with at the Prime Minister-Premier level. The normal procedure is for the Premier to make repre sentations to the Commonwealth by directing his request to the Prime Minister. It goes without saying that all representations made by a Premier to the Prime Minister are given consideration. Quite clearly, when a Premier believes that the Commonwealth should be asked for a subvention, the responsibility or the onus in the first instance is on that Premier to make his representations. I can say no more than that in this regard. 1139 1139 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, who will recall that on 27th March 1 asked him a question about a worker's compensation claim made by a Canberra man named Busico. fs the Minister in a position to reply? 1139 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I am in a position to inform the honourable senator thai the employee to whom he refers was employed by a person who had not funds to meet any judgment for common law compensation that might be awarded against him. The employer also had no effective insurance against workers' compensation payments. Under the relevant Ordinance, therefore, the liability fell on the nominal insurer, an authority established to cover cases where default occurs in the payment of workers' compensation. In the case in question there was a mistaken impression that the Century Insurance Company Ltd was liable to cover the claim for worker's compensation payments. The employee first received $1,586 in worker's compensation, and since has received $8,974 in worker's compensation. He is entitled to and is continuing to receive a weekly payment of $38.25 in worker's compensation. I am advised that he is entitled to receive this weekly payment for an indefinite and in fact unlimited period. There is, in the Australian Capital Territory, no ordinance comparable with the New South Wales legislation requiring compulsory insurance against common law damages. 1139 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - Why not? 1139 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - That matter is receiving immediate consideration. 1139 KOU 0 0 HENDRICKSON, Albion Senator Hendrickson - It has taken 20 years. 1140 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The honourable senator who interjects could have moved in this Parliament for an amendment of the law at any time since he first entered Parliament. 1 do not remember his raising his voice to express an opinion that the law should be amended. Now that an incident has occurred to direct attention to the deficiency, the Government is giving urgent consideration to remedying that deficiency. 1140 1140 K3O 0 0 BUTTFIELD, Nancy Senator BUTTFIELD - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service. Has the Minister seen a report that the Municipal Roads Board and Parks Employees Union has complained to the Perth Shire Council about the appointment by that Council of women street cleaners? Is it a fact that the union has asked for an assurance that men will be employed in these positions and that if no men are available women will be employed only on a temporary basis? Does the Minister consider that this is clear proof that any move made by the Australian Council of Trade Unions or by any individual trade union to gain equal pay for equal work performed by women is merely a cunning device to ensure that men will always be assured of employment in preference to women if the women arc to bc given equal remuneration? 1140 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I regret that I have not noticed the information to which the honourable senator has referred. As to the implications of 1his claim, all I wish to say is that it shows a clear failure to recognise the undoubted value of women in respect of such work. 1140 1140 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - Can the Minister for Works give me any information in relation to my recent plea for Commonwealth assistance to combat serious erosion in the Greenwell Point section of the Shoalhaven River? 1140 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - It will be recalled that on 16th April during the adjournment debate Senator Mulvihill directed my attention to this matter. It appears that the Shoalhaven River was diverted some time ago by means of a canal about a mile in length. The joining of that canal with the Crook- haven River, I think it is, has created some risk of flood damage to a flat area which is used to a considerable degree by tourists and on which there are a number of holiday homes. The State Government has relegated its responsibility in this instance to the Shoalhaven Shire Council and therefore, of course, we in the Federal sphere must abstain from any direct interference, it will be satisfactory to the Senate, however, to be reminded that in 1964 the Commonwealth allocated to New South Wales the sum of $5. 5m to enable flood mitigation works to be carried out over a period of 6 years on various New South Wales rivers, including the Shoalhaven River. The distribution of that SS.Sm was a responsibility of the New South Wales Government. I understand that the Shoalhaven Shire received SL.Im but the Shire has not been able to utilise those funds for this particular work. I think the honourable senator will be satisfied that, for the present at any rate, the Commonwealth has made a fairly substantial contribution. As I have pointed out, the priority of allocation is really a matter for the State Government or the Shire Council. 1140 1140 KQV CP; NCP from May 1975 0 0 LAWRIE, Alexander Senator LAWRIE - My question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate relates to an answer he gave yesterday to a question concerning the availability of Commonwealth publications in capital cities. The Minister said that there is a government bookshop in Melbourne and Sydney. Can he inform the Senate whether there are government bookshops in other capital cities in Australia? Will the Government consider establishing shops in the principal provincial cities in Australia where a large variety of Government publications would be readily available to the Australian public, as is the case in provincial towns in New Zealand where most government publications are readily available for sale? Alternatively, will the Government contact the existing private bookshops throughout Australia with a view to their establishing special sections to retail government publications? 1140 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - Yesterday I provided an answer to Senator Cavanagh which had been given to me very kindly by the Principal Parliamentary Reporter. It had a particular reference. The question now asked has a far wider application and I would need it to be placed on notice so that it could be evaluated and consideration given to the proposals made by the honourable senator. 1141 1141 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I direct my question to the Minister representing the Prime Minister. Do any resignations from the Public Service have to be approved by the Governor-General? If so, what grades of public servants have to receive such approval before resigning? 1141 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The nature of the question indicates that it should go on notice in order that a considered reply can be obtained. Quite clearly the question should be directed to the Prime Minister because it relates to the Public Service Board. 1141 1141 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - My question is directed to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. It follows on questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition regarding the establishment of a joint United States-Australian defence space communications facility at Woomera. In the light of discussions in this chamber on Tuesday of this week, I ask: Has the Leader of the Government received a request from the Leader of the Opposition for time to be allotted for a debate on this subject? If not, is he able to say whether the absence of any such request is due to the well known division within the ranks of the Opposition as to the Opposition's policy on this subject? 1141 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - On Tuesday I read to the Senate the statement that the Prime Minister had made on the subject in the other place and the Leader of the Opposition moved that the Senate take note of the paper, which is the normal procedure in this chamber. The Leader of the Opposition also raised the question of a debate on the paper and I replied that I would be most willing and anxious to make time available for a debate at an appropriate time. The fact of the matter is that the Senate will not be sitting next week. If the Leader of the Opposition indicates to me when the Senate resumes its sittings that the Opposition would like to have a debate on the subject, with the concurrence of the Senate I shall make time available for it. 1141 1141 7V4 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES - I wish to direct a question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. Is the Minister aware of the direct conflict between the Department of External Affairs and the Department of External Territories on the matter of refugees from West Irian? Will this conflict lead to increased tension in this area of New Guinea? 1141 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I have seen the Press reports on the subject. I noticed that one newspaper in particular played up the point that there are different views on the affairs at the border between New Guinea and West Irian. I believe that this could be due to interpretation. The Minister for External Affairs made it abundantly clear at a Press conference that the discussions that he had had with the Indonesian Foreign Minister had resulted in the situation being reached where, rather than tension increasing, there will be a diminution or removal of any tensions which are indicated in some of the articles that I have read in the Press. Indeed, I have a transcript of the Press conference that occurred on the Minister's return, it is a very lengthy document. I would be happy to make it available to the honourable senator. The transcript clearly reveals that everything is being done to mitigate the situation which occurred in that area and that due regard is being had to the personnel who crossed the frontier. I understand that accommodation will be made available to them until such time as they make their own judgment on what they desire to do. 1141 1141 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator MARRIOTT - My question is directed to the Minister for Housing. Can the Minister state what truth, if any, there is in the statement reported to have been made by the Tasmanian Labor Minister for Housing, Mr Ward, which appeared in the Hobart 'Mercury' of 30th April that the attitude of the Federal Government was to refuse consistently to give more money for housing aged persons? 1142 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - My attention has been drawn to the statement referred to by the honourable senator. I must say that it gives a very false impression. Housing for aged persons is provided in two different ways one of which is, as honourable senators know, through finance provided under the Aged Persons Homes Act. In that way money is made available to church and charitable bodies which provide homes for aged persons, as a subsidy on the basis of $2 for $1. The second method of making money available is under the Commonwealth and State Housing Agreement. The State governments obtain by this the money to use for housing and this can include housing aged persons. I think the honourable senator said that the statement contained the words 'no money had been made available'. I think it is worth while to note the amount of money made available through aged persons homes legislation. This year to the end of March $570,208 has been provided. This provides an interesting comparison with the provision of $316,013 for 1967-68. Honourable senators will note that the amount made available to the end of March this year is an increase on the amount made available for the whole of the previous year. This work is of tremendous importance and I am glad to be able to give the Senate the information I have given. 1142 1142 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - My question, which I address to the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, refers to a statement made by the Minister for Trade and Industry, on 17th April, announcing the impending arrival in Australia of Mr Haak, the South African Minister for Economic Affairs. Apparently he is coming to this country to discuss the possibilities of increased trade between South Africa and Australia. In view of the attitude of many important Asian trading partners of Australia towards South Africa and their own refusal to have dealings with the South African Government, will the Minister consider the damage which may result to Australia's trade with Asian countries were it to enter into extensive trading arrangements with South Africa? 1142 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I am not clear from the honourable senator's question whether he is advocating that we should not trade with South Africa. I think his question could be better answered if he put that on the line. We are a trading nation. We will live or wither on the vine in terms of our trading. The facts of life are that we trade with Asian nations; we are grateful for their trade, and they are grateful for ours. When politics get confused with the very lifeblood of a country, I think it is time one took another look at one's politics. 1142 1142 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator MARRIOTT - Will the Minister representing the Postmaster-General obtain from the Postmaster-General a statement setting out times that the telecasts of the swearing-in ceremony of His Excellency the Governor-General in the Senate yesterday were shown in the various States? If the telecast was not relayed direct to each State other than Western Australia, could an explanation be given of why a direct telecast was not made to those particular States? 1142 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - We witnessed yesterday in the Senate a most impressive and wonderful ceremony. I feel that it is of great importance that as many people as can see that ceremony through the advantage of television films should do so. I will discuss with the Postmaster-General the points raised by the honourable senator and get an answer for him. 1142 1142 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate: Did Australia make a strong protest to the Indonesian Government against the invasion by armed Indonesian personnel of the Territory of New Guinea in pursuit of West Irians who had crossed into New Guinea? 1142 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - It is my understanding that Mr Freeth had a discussion with Mr Malik, 'the Indonesian Foreign Minister, over the incident. Mr Malik indicated that- 1142 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Did we make a strong protest? 1142 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The honourable senator is playing with words. Mr Freeth discussed the matter with Mr Malik. That is what one would expect Foreign Ministers of Ministers for External Affairs to do. My understanding of the Press statement that was made by Mr Freeth on his return is that Mr Malik indicated that he agreed that the incident should not have 'happened and he agreed that he would take action to see that such an incident did not happen again. 1143 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Did we make a strong protest? 1143 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - If that is not a strong protest, I suggest that the honourable senator sit down and give me half a page on what he means by 'a strong protest'. 1143 1143 CAK 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator RAE - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Health. Has the Food Standards Committee of the National Health and Medical Research Council made any recommendations in relation to the protection of consumers from the presence of excess moisture in frozen poultry? If so, what was that recommendation, and is any action being taken as a result of the recommendation to protect consumers in the Territories of the Commonwealth? 1143 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I was aware of the honourable senator's interest in this matter. I have the following information concerning it from the Minister for Health: The protection of consumers from the presence of excess moisture in frozen poultry has been under consideration for some time by the Food Standards Committee of the National Health and Medical Research Council. This matter was the subject of a recommendation to the Health and Medical Research Council by the Committee at a meeting held yesterday, 30th April 1969. The recommendation will be considered by the Council at its meeting in October. The matter will be considered by my Department, so far as legislation for the internal Territories is concerned, when the Council's recommendation becomes available. 1143 1143 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - Has the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry seen reports that an American buyer has purchased the Granite Peak sheep station in Western Australia, which is one of the largest sheep stations in that State, consisting of an area of about 860,000 acres? As this would appear to be a classic example of what the Minister for Trade and Industry himself referred to as selling a bit of the farm each year', does the Minister have any comment to make on the purchase of this Australian sheep station by an American buyer? 1143 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I have not seen the report to which the honourable senator refers. For that reason, it would be very unwise for me to make a comment. I am sure that he would appreciate that. Lest he think that I am running away from him on the matter, let me say this: I well recall that American interests went into primary producing areas of Queensland and gave a stimulus which they lacked. I am quite certain that the Minister for Trade and Industry or the Government can be relied upon to see to it that Australia's overall interests are always preserved. If the organisation concerned in this instance intends to go into an area and, by using overseas capital, to develop the area to a degree or capacity far beyond- 1143 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator Wheeldon - A sheep station. 1143 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - Even the honourable senator and I, who are perhaps city slickers, know that there are good sheep stations and bad sheep stations. I think there are good farmers and bad farmers, just as there are good politicians and bad politicians. I acknowledge that I am talking hypothetically. It may well be that the acquisition of a huge area of 860,000 acres which could be brought into high productivity will be a wonderful investment for the region and for the country. 1143 1143 KQN 0 0 LAUCKE, Condor Senator LAUCKE - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Postmaster-General. As the tempo of modern business requires the utmost expedition in delivery of mails and as there has been in many instances a degree of retrogression in the lapse of time between posting and receipt of mail matter, what steps are being taken to overcome this situation? 1143 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I have had other questions directed to me on this matter. I have a reply to be supplied today to a similar question from Senator Greenwood. I suggest that Senator Laucke might find in that answer an answer to his question. If this is not so, I shall be pleased to put any further suggestions before the Postmaster-General. 1144 1144 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - Is the Minister representing the Minister for Health aware that some 2,000 age pensioner residents of the Wyong area of New South Wales are registered for Hong Kong influenza vaccine injections? When can Wyong doctors and chemists expect a delivery of vaccine? They have had very little up to date and this is very largely an age pensioner community. 1144 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - It will be recalled that I have replied to a number of questions concerning the doses available. I have informed the Senate of the continuing production of serum at the Commonwealth Serum Laboratories. The honourable senator's question concerns a particular area and a particular group of people. I know that it is the wish of the Minister for Health and, indeed, of the Government that such people should receive their injections as soon as possible. I shall take up the point raised and endeavour to find whether the position can be improved, and I shall let the honourable senator know. 1144 1144 CAK 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator RAE - I direct a question to the Minister for Works. What part, if any, will the Department of Works play in the construction of the $750,000 Cressy Longford irrigation scheme, which has been welcomed by those Liberals who have consistently urged the scheme and has been received by the Tasmanian Labor Minister for Lands and Works with the published statement that he found the grant to this area of Tasmania disappointing? 1144 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - It will be recalled that the Minister for National Development announced a grant to Tasmania of $750,000 for the construction of the Cressy water scheme. This was an advance of $750,000 out of a total cost of $840,000, a proportion which is unusually generous today. Items in the New South Wales programme are assisted to the extent of only about 40%. In reply to the specific question, the procedure is that the Commonwealth Government investigates the design and economic potential of the programme and then decides to make a grant to the State Government. The actual execution of the work with that money is a matter for the State and it would be a most unusual arrangement - hitherto not requested - for the State to ask the Commonwealth Department of Works to execute the work. So far as I know, the intention is that the State Public Works Department will carry out the work. 1144 1144 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - Can the Minister representing the Minister for National Development advise the Senate who was the official convener of the recent northern development conference held in Western Australia? Can he inform the Parliament whether an invitation was extended to the Queensland Government and, if it was, to whom the invitation was addressed? Did any member of the Queensland Government attend the conference? 1144 K5K LP 1 0 SCOTT, Malcolm Senator SCOTT - I know that recently there was a meeting of Ministers in the northern part of Western Australia and that it was attended by the Minister for National Development, one other Commonwealth Minister and Ministers from Western Australia. However, I do not know whether a representative of the Queensland Government attended or, if one did attend, who it was. I shall obtain the information for the honourable senator and send it to him in the form of a letter. 1144 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - Today? 1144 K5K 0 0 SCOTT, Malcolm Senator SCOTT - Yes, today. 1144 1144 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator LAUGHT - Does the Minister for Works expect that his Department will play any part in the development of the joint Australian-United States of America defence complex at Woomera in South Australia? If so, what part? Can he indicate whether it is proposed to erect any associated works in places in South Australia other than at Woomera? 1144 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Designs and specifications of the proposed work have not been developed. Although it would be the usual practice for the Department of Works to be called upon in relation to any appropriate part of such establishments, that has not yet been decided. As to associated works, the honourable senator will know that at present the Department of Works is engaged upon an urgent programme of house construction in Alice Springs. 1145 1145 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - In addressing my question to the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport I refer to the Government's about face in deciding to buy rather than charter two container ships for Australia's overseas shipping line. ls it a fact that the main reason for the change in policy is the crewing problem, a factor which should have been known to Australian negotiators before this extraordinary bungle took place? Will the Minister ask his colleague to furnish a full statement for the Senate explaining the sudden change in a major policy decision? Will that statement deal with matters such as the suggestion that the decision to buy the vessels will eventually cost Australia up to $30m and not the $9m which has been mentioned by the Government? Will it inform us whether it is true that the second ship will cost 47% more than the first vessel, merely because of a different superstructure on the second ship? 1145 K5K LP 1 0 SCOTT, Malcolm Senator SCOTT - It is a fact that the Commonwealth Government has decided to purchase vessels rather than charter them for a number of years and then buy them. I shall place the honourable senator's specific questions before the Minister for Shipping and Transport and obtain an answer for him. 1145 1145 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - My question is directed to the Minister for Works. Does his Department have control over the construction of buildings and other capital works in the State universities where the finance for such capital works is provided on the recommendation of the Australian Universities Commission and is supplied in part by the Commonwealth and in part by the States? If so, what is the justification for the practice? 1145 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The honourable senator refers in his question to the construction of university buildings with the aid of finance that is allotted by this Government on the recommendation of the Universities Commission - that is to say, capital expenditure that goes towards the building of universities. The practice there is for State public works constructing authorities to carry out the work under the direction of the State Government. There has not been to my knowledge any instance where the Federal Department of Works has been asked to carry out such construction. 1145 1145 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration. Notwithstanding the decision announced by the Minister for Immigration that in future details of country of origin will be deleted from Australian citizenship certificates, am I right in assuming that an applicant will still have to indicate the country of origin on his initial application for citizenship? 1145 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I shall be happy to obtain the detailed information required by the honourable senator from the Minister for Immigration. 1145 1145 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - In addressing a question to the Minister representing the Attorney-General I refer to his answer given a little earlier in the day. May we take it from what the Minister said that no suggestions have been made in the Senate about law reform in the Australian Capital Territory, by myself in particular? May we take it that the Minister has failed to bring to the attention of the Attorney-General proposals which have been made in this place? As one example, I refer in particular to the suggestion made on 28th November last that during 1969 if the Attorney-General's Department could solve its apparently insoluble problem of staff and so on some attention might be paid to matters such as trial by jury in civil cases in the Australian Capital Territory. 1145 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I wish to say quite firmly that the framework of the question of the Leader of the Opposition represents a complete distortion of anything that has been said here. What I said before in the Senate was that the Leader of the Opposition and all his colleagues had failed to bring before the Senate any proposal to amend the compensation ordinance with relation to compulsory insurance for industrial accidents. It is a complete distortion to say or represent that the Attorney-General has not considered matters of law reform and in particular those matters to which the honourable senator referred. Both the Attorney-General in another place, and I in this place, on his behalf, have referred from time to time to the continuous attention given by the Attorney-General to law reform in the Australian Capital Territory. I have enumerated within the last few months the important fields of law in which reform has been quite substantially advanced. (Question No. 704) 1146 1146 KBY 0 0 YOUNG, Harold Senator YOUNG asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: Has the Minister seen an article in the 'Financial Review' where it is reported that a consulting survey suggests that the cost of operating a container service between England and Australia could be 40 per cent less than the costs of conventional methods of shipping? Have the consortia, Overseas Containers Ltd. and Associated Container Transport, given any indication as to whether freight rates will be reduced when containerisation is introducednext year? 1146 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: Indications are that container shipping operations can lead to considerable cost savings. It should also be realised that the consortia are investing large sums of money in the establishment of these services. So although operating costs should be reduced, capital costs will be increased and these two items will have to be balanced against each other before any cost reductions can flow on to shippers. It can be said, however, the long-term effect on these systems will be to Australia's advantage. The consortia have consulted with individual exporters on freight rates for this service. The basic sea-leg rates will be the same for both conventional and container ships, but there will be savings in total transport costs for shippers using containers, especially if full container loads are employed. The container consortia estimated savings amount to an average of 7%, depending on the commodity involved and the container transport system used. (Question No. 804) 1146 1146 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: Is there any possibility that urea being produced in Australia will be able to compete with the imported product without the protection of a high tariff, the landed price being $39 a ton and the cost to the farmer being $73.50 a ton? 1146 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: In Western Australia, the State into which major imports of ureaare occurring, the current landed price for imports of urea is $68.52 per ton. This import price does not include any charges for handling, storage and distribution or any subsidy. Current selling prices of urea after deduction of subsidy in major States are as follows: New South Wales, $68.70 per ton; Victoria, $77.70 perton; Western Australia, $63.50 per ton; Queensland, $69.20 per ton. The assistance accorded the Australian production of urea is not by means of a protective duty but by a bounty payable at the rate of $16 per ton. This protective bounty is not to be confused with the subsidy paid to reduce the cost of nitrogenous fertilisers to the farmer which is at the rate of about $36.80 perton of urea. The Tariff Board is currently conducting an inquiry on the protective needs of the nitrogenous fertiliser industry. If, as a result of this inquiry, the production of urea continued to be assisted by means of a bounty it would be expected that the level of the bounty would be such as to enable the locally manufactured product to be sold at a price competitive with the imported non-dumped product with no protective duty. (Question No. 873) 1146 1146 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: With reference to a recommendation in November last, by Sir Frank Meere, Special Advisory Authority on Tariffs, which' the Government accepted, that a system of licensing controls be aplied to imported knitted goods, what are the circumstances which warrant licensing rather than tariff protection? 1146 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: In a report dated 8th December 1967, the Special Advisory Authority found that urgent action should be taken to protect local manufacture of knitted coals, jumpers, cardigans, sweaters and the like. The Authority recommended quantitative restriction on imports. In the report the Special Advisory Authority gave the following reasons for this recommendation: I have given consideration to the question of whether the necessary protection can be appropriately provided by means of temporary additional duties. The circumstances of the case are that, if temporary duties were imposed, they would need to be in the form of sliding scale duties, or. in the form of a duty, subject to a reduction equal to the amount by which the f.o.b. price of the imported garment exceeds a specified figure. However, because of the variety of styles, qualities, weights, etc., in which these types of knitted outerwear could be imported, it would be extremely difficult to provide suitable base prices for each type of garment, and the difficulties of administration would be considerable. In the circumstances I consider that the necessary protection can be appropriately provided only by means of the temporary restriction of the importation of these goods. The Government accepted the Special Advisory Authority's findings and adopted his recommendation. (Question No. 936) 1147 1147 K3J 0 0 BULL, Thomas Senator BULL asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: In view of the importance to our economy of Government protection to industry, plus the added work entailed by new procedures to be undertaken by the Tariff Board, and having in mind the all too frequent resignations from the Board and the apparent difficulties the Minister has in filling vacancies, will the Government give consideration to (a) increasing the full time membership of the Board, and (b) approving an increase in salaries commensurate with the very important work performed by the Board? 1147 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The occurrence, for a variety of reasons, of a number of vacancies in the membership of the Tariff Board within a relatively short span of time has created some temporary difficulties, but it is not considered that these temporary difficulties require an increase in the statutory number of Board members. The salaries of Tariff Board members are determined in relation to the salaries of senior officers of other statutory bodies and of the Commonwealth Public Service, and are subject to review from time to time. The Chairman's salary was increased recently, following the salary increases approved for permanent heads of Commonwealth departments. (Question No. 974) 1147 1147 CAK 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator RAE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: What was the volume - slated in tons weight - and the value of imports of New Zealand grown strawberries in each month since October 1968? 1147 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The Commonwealth Statistician has advised that imports of strawberries from New Zealand Tor the period October I96S to February 1969 were as follows: (Question No. 988) 1147 1147 7V4 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: ls there a proposal by the container consortia that differential freight rates will be imposed on goods shipped in containers between oversea* and north Queensland ports? Is this proposal a denial of an assurance given to Parliament by the Minister for Trade and Industry on 3rd February 1967 that the cost of feeder services will be absorbed to achieve a single Australian freight rate? What action does the Minister propose to force the consortia to honour their undertaking to the Senate Select Committee on the Container Method of Handling Cargoes that uniform rates would apply to all Australian ports? 1147 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: I propose to answer all three questions with one reply. The position is that initially container ships will call at Fremantle, Melbourne and Sydney. Cargoes from Brisbane, Newcastle and Adelaide will be fed into Sydney and Melbourne and the container freight tariffs will absorb the costs of centralising this cargo. It remains the clear intention of the container consortia, as notified two years ago, to provide feeder services on the same basis from north Queensland and other areas but this can only be done when it is economically feasible. At the rates currently being quoted for feeder services, it is clearly not economic, but studies into this problem are proceeding. For the present these other areas will be served by conventional ships and there is no suggestion that the freight rates from these areas will be increased. (Question No. 1004) 1148 1148 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry, upon notice: Will the Minister inquire whether or not copy for the magazine 'Pol' is written locally, sent on, with instructions, to Hong Kong printing houses for type-setting, proof reading and art-work and then returned to Australia for completion and sale? Is this form of trade in conflict with Australian policy and does the practice constitute a threat to the printing industry in Australia? 1148 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - The Minister for Trade and Industry has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: According to the. best information available it appears that the magazine 'Pol' is written locally and sent on with instructions to Dai Nippon Printing Company International Limited, Hong Kong, for printing, before being returned to Australia for distribution and sale. There is nothing in Australian trade policy which prohibits the printing overseas of material written and published in Australia. It cannot be said that the printing of the magazine 'Pol' in Hong Kong constitutes a threat to the printing industry in Australia. However, the recent increasing trend towards the printing of Australian books overseas, as distinct from magazines, has caused some difficulties for local printers. Accordingly, the Printing and Allied Trades Employers Federation of Australia submitted a detailed case for assistance. This is currently being considered by the Government. (Question No. 1019) 1148 1148 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER asked the Minister representing the Postmaster-General, upon notice: Is the Postmaster-General satisfied that once a day delivery of mail is proving satisfactory? Has the Postmaster-General received many complaints from interested parties concerning once a day delivery of mail? 1148 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Postmaster-General has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question. Actually the change in frequency of deliveries affects only a small proportion of each day's mail and the new delivery frequency provides generally a good standard of service. In view of the nature of the change in delivery arrangements, it was expected that there would be complaints from some members of the public. However, measured against the 52 million items handled weekly the numbers of complaints have been relatively small. (Question No. 1062) 1148 1148 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McCLELLAND asked the Minister representing the Minister for National Development, upon notice: Is it a fact that recently at Hurstville, New South Wales, a' conference took place of all local Government organisations immediately concerned with the increasing pollution of the Georges River? Does the Australian Atomic Energy Commission discharge atomic waste from the reactor at Lucas Heights, which is subsequently channelled into the Georges River? Is this atomic waste indestructible? What steps are taken to preventcontamination of fish and other seafoods in theGeorges River? 1148 K5K LP 1 0 SCOTT, Malcolm Senator SCOTT - The Minister for National Development has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: A meeting of the St George and Sutherland Dredging and Reclamation Committee, comprising representatives of the Rockdale, Hurstville, Sutherland and Kogarah Councils, washeld at Hurstville Municipal Council's offices on 8th November 1968. Two officers of the Australian Atomic Energy Commission attended the meeting by invitation. Processed liquid waste from the Commission's Research Establishment is discharged into the Woronora River, which joins the Georges River at Como. The amount of radioactive discharge is controlled in accordance with a formula approved by the Radiological Advisory Council of New South Wales and the Maritime Services Board of New South Wales. Effluentsare held in tanks and may not be discharged to the river until they have been tested and certified as being within the limits prescribed.. The permissible discharge levels for the various radioactive nuclides concerned incorporate large safety factors and the resultant concentrations of radioactivity in the Woronora estuary are lower than levels which have been agreed internationally as acceptable for drinking water. Waste from the research establishment does not constitute a hazard to health. It should be noted that safety aspects of the activities of the Commission's research establishment are subject to the surveillance of an independent Safety Review Committee, consisting of: Professor S. Sunderland, Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, University of Melbourne (Chairman); Dr C. J. Cummins., New South Wales Director-General of Health; Mr D. J. Stevens, Director, Commonwealth X-ray and Radium Laboratory. Radioactivity diminishes with time and radioactive materials eventually become non-radioactive. This is characteristic of all radioactive materials. The decay of radioactivity cannot be accelerated. In determining the radioactive discharge formula referred to in 2. above, particular attention was paid to the seafood industry in the area. (Question No.1111) 1149 1149 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH asked the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration, upon notice: Were Italian welders, employed on the Gidgealpa pipeline in South Australia, permitted into Australia on a 3 months permit for the purpose of teaching Australian welders the process of welding high tension steel? Have such permits now expired? Has the contracting company removed Australian welders from the pipeline construction and applied for extended permits for the Italian welders on the claim that Australian welders are not available? Do advertisements in Australian newspapers seeking welders stipulate ages between 21 and 35 years while similar advertisements in Italian newspapers have no age stipulation? 1149 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The Minister for Immigration has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: Italian welders were permitted entry to Australia on a short term basis to work on the natural gas pipeline in South Australia. They were permitted to come here only after extensive testing of the Australian labour market showed that suitably qualified local welders were not available and after there had been consultation by the Department of Labour and National Service with the Boilermakers and Blacksmiths Society of Australia to which the Italian welders belong. The company involved, Snam Projetti Australia Pty Ltd. was permitted to bring the Italians to Australia for an initial period of 3 months with renewal of entry permits being subject to the company satisfying the Department of Immigration and the Department of Labour and National Service that it had taken reasonable steps to recruit and train Australian replacements and provided that the wages and conditions of the Italians must be in accordance with Australian industrial laws. The company has satisfied these conditions. The company has advertised extensively and used the resources of the Commonwealth Employment Service in an effort to secure suitable labour from Australian sources. It is training Australian welders in its own school in Adelaide and is directly associated in a joint training scheme for welders with other employers and the Boilermakers and Blacksmiths Society. The company is currently employing 26 Italian and 27 Australian welders on the South Australian project. Yes. In line with the answer to question 1, action is being taken to extend the permits for a further temporary period. It is understood that 3 locally engaged welders recently were transferred from pipeline construction work to the company's welding school in Adelaide to enable them to increase their level of skill. It is understood that some but not all advertisements by (he company in Australian newspapers stipulated age limits but that the company has discontinued this. 1149 1149 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - On 26th March 1969 Senator Webster asked me the following question: Is the Minister representing the Postmaster-General fully aware of the dissatisfaction with the decision to curtail mail deliveries to one a day in some very important country centres? Is this treatment being meted out to all clients of the Postmaster-General's Department or only to people in rural areas? If a once a day service is to be introduced is the Department alert to the importance to business of an early morning delivery? In view of the nature of the change in delivery arrangements, it was expected that there would be complaints from some members of the public who disagree with the new frequency of delivery. However, the complaints received have not exceeded the general level expected when the changes were announced. The new arrangements have been applied uniformly throughout the Commonwealth in both metropolitan and country areas where twice daily deliveries previously operated. Prior to the introduction of the new arrangements, there were 540 centres from which twice daily deliveries operated; 353 of these were in the metropolitan areas of the capital cities and 187 were country centres. The importance of the mail to business and commercial areas is fully appreciated, and deliveries to the main business areas in cities, suburbs and towns normally commence by 9 a.m., while private box sorting is usually completed by this time. Mail in the second despatch to Post Offices is available through private boxes in the early afternoon in most cases. 1149 1149 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - On 15th April 1969 Senator Greenwood asked me the following question: Is the Minister representing the Postmaster-General aware of the many complaints being aired generally with respect to poor mail deliveries with 2, 3 or more days frequently elapsing between posting and delivery of mail in both metropolitan and country areas? if so, what is the reason for the increasing instances of delay in the delivery of postal articles? In an organisation which employs almost 35,000 people in the postal area and processes about 9 million mail articles each working day, it would not be unreasonable to expect that some articles would fail to achieve the prescribed standard. However, specific instances of delays to mail are fully investigated and corrective action is taken where necessary. Many complaints upon investigations are found to arise from inadequately addressed envelopes or from one or other of some twentysix similar root causes. 1150 1150 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - On 15th April Senator Webster asked me the following question: Has the Minister's attention been directed to the. progressive increase in the number of television advertisements shown during attractive programmes by commercial' stations? Can the Minister inform the Senate what limits are placed on commercial television stations in this regard? The television programme standards of the Aus: tralian Broadcasting Control Board contain detailed provisions relating to the allowable frequency and duration of advertisements. In brief, the standards provide that the total time occupied by advertising matter on weekdays may not exceed 1 1 minutes in each hour between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m., and 13 minutes in the hour at other times. On Sundays the allowable limit is 6 minutes in each hour between 6 a.m. and 12 noon, and 9 minutes in the bour at other times. There is no limitation on the number of advertisements which may be televised consecutively during intervals between programmes but not more than 4 advertisements may be televised consecutively in any natural break during the course of a programme. Feature films may not be interrupted more than 4 times in the hour for the insertion of advertisements. I have consulted the Board and it informs me that it is not aware of any progressive increase in the number of television advertisements shown during attractive programmes as stated by the honourable senator. The Board states that generally speaking its standards are observed satisfactorily. Whenever the limits of the standards are exceeded the Board takes the matter up promptly with the stations concerned. 1150 1150 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - On 5th March Senator Milliner asked me the following question without notice: In view of the threat of substantial unemployment in the metals industries in ' Queensland and the : subsequent decision of unionists employed in those industries to impose overtime bans, will the Minister influence his colleagues to release foreseeable government contracts to ease the situation and ensure that' all contracts, be they for the Government or for private "industry, are executed in Australia rather than farmed out to overseas interests? In reply I undertook to refer the question to my colleague, the Minister -for Labour and National Service, for consideration. He has now informed me that, with the completion of some contracts, there has been some reduction in Queensland in activity in what are .referred to as the metal industries. However, there is no threat of substantial unemployment. The number of unemployed persons registered with the. Commonwealth Employment Service at the end of March 1969 represented 1.92% of the estimated work force in that State, compared with 2.18% at the end of March 1968 and 2.49% at the end of March 1967. 1150 1150 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - On 23rd April Senator Milliner asked me the following question without notice: Is the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service in a position to provide, any information concerning the decisions made by the Committee set up to make appropriate arrangements to mark the ' occasion of the 50th year of operation of- the Internal ional Labour Organisation? In reply I undertook. to provide some information as soon as possible. 1 now inform the honourable senator as follows: The honourable senator will recall that 1 referred to arrangements being made to celebrate the ILO's 50th anniversary in reply to a question he asked me last September. In brief, planning of the celebrations is in the hands of a tripartite committee of the National Labour Advisory Council. I shall outline the activities approved to date. It has been announced already that the Postmaster-General's Department will issue a commemorative stamp on : 4th- June 1969 to coincide with the opening of the 53rd session of the International Labour Conference. Television and radio authorities, both national and commercial, have agreed to present programmes on theILO and its work. There will be Press publicity on the ILO including articles in appropriate journals. A complete review is being made of the Australian position on all ILO Conventions. It is proposed to publish the review later in the year and to table it in the Parliament. Consideration is also being given to the form of an appropriate national function on 29th October 1969, the actual 50th anniversary of the ILO's founding, which would provide an opportunity for participation by those government employer and worker representatives who have been involved in the activities of the ILO on Australia's behalf. 1151 miscellaneous Report of the Public Accounts Committee 1151 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - As Vice Chairman, I present the one hundred and seventh report of the Public Accounts Committee, which relates to subscriber trunk dialling facilities. Mr Deputy President, I seek leave to make a short statement. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Drake-Brockman) - There being no objection, leave is granted. 1151 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - Honourable senators will recall that in the one hundred and fifth report, which was presented on 20th March, your Committee stated that as part of its inquiry into the report of the Auditor-General for the financial year 1967-68 it had examined subscriber trunk dialling facilities. Because of the importance of that matter, however, your Committee decided to report separately upon it. The evidence taken on this matter shows that since 1 959 the Government has adopted a telephone policy framed on a long term basis to meet the expansion of Australia and to confer progressively the benefits of new and improved techniques and modern equipment on the users of telephone services. A basic feature of that policy has been the provision of. facilities which will enable nation-wide subscriber-to-subscriber dialling. The evidence indicated that considerable progress had been made in the development of these facilities by 1968. Prior to the introduction of STD in 1962 it was recognised during interdepartmental discussions that the availability of these facilities would offer scope for their un authorised use in Commonwealth departments. It had also been recognised, however, that if Commonwealth departments were not prepared to use STD facilities because of their possible misuse, the confidence of business and private subscribers in these facilities could be undermined.It was therefore decided, as a general principle, that access to trunk dialling equipment from Commonwealth department services should not be restricted. At the same time the Postmaster-General's Department was prepared to apply restrictive devices to any subscriber services when specifically requested to do so. Although STD was introduced in 1962 it was not until 1967 that the Department of the Treasury issued a circular to all departments informing them that while all reasonable precautions must be taken to prevent unauthorised and wasteful use of telephones, there should be no unnecessary impairment of their full and proper use for the performance of public business. Your Committee believes that a useful purpose . would have been served if such a circular had been issued immediately prior to the introduction of STD in 1962. In 1967-68 the Auditor-General's Department reached the conclusion that substantial misuse of telephone facilities could occur in departments and in June 1968 it suggested to the Department of the Treasury that an interdepartmental committee should be established to evolve a model set of instructions relating to the control of STD. The Treasury proceeded to arrange for the establishment of such a committee and also requested departments to attempt an analysis of their telephone accounts to enable the isolation of the factors that had contributed to increased financial allocations for telephone purposes. The evidence taken by your Committee from the departments which it examined revealed significant differences in office instructions relating to the control of telephone facilities. In particular, there was no evidence to suggest that departments apply controls through supervision of the private use of telephones for local calls or the use of telephones before or after normal working hours or during lunch-time recesses. The improper use of telephones in any of these circumstances can, however, prove costly. In view of the differences in departmental practice that were discovered, and the wider based differences discovered by the audit review in 1967-68, your Committee believes that a full scale review of departmental instructions and practices should be undertaken by the interdepartmental committee and that the committee should then evolve a model set of instructions relating to the control of telephone facilities, including STD, for the guidance of departments. The evidence taken by your Committee also highlighted the problems of telephone cost control that arise in buildings occupied by two or more departments. We believe that these problems, which have evidently been accentuated following the introduction of STD, should be given close attention by the interdepartmental committee. I commend the report to honourable senators and move that it be printed. Ordered that the report be printed. 1152 special adjournment 1152 JZQ New South Wales LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator ANDERSON - I move: That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn till Tuesday, 13 May, at 3 p.m. 1 anticipate that Government business will cease this afternoon at about 4.30. That will enable any honourable senator who wishes to speak in the debate on the adjournment of the Senate to do so. I am not inviting honourable senators to speak. 1 have in contemplation that in the normal course of events the Senate would rise this afternoon at five o'clock or perhaps before five. Question resolved in the affirmative. 1152 bill 1152 Debate resumed from 29th April (vide page 1039), on motion by Senator Wright: That the Bill be now read a second time. Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD (Victoria) [12.16] - It is not my intention to delay the passage of this legislation by a lengthy speech in general terms on education. It is very tempting when speaking on such a subject to digress. Already other honourable senators have succumbed to that temptation. As Senator Cohen, who led in this debate for the Opposition, Senator McClelland of the Opposition and Senator McManus of the Australian Democratic Labour Party have already informed the Senate that they see no objection to the legislation, it appears that the sooner it becomes operative the better. Senator Wright, who represents the Minister for Education and Science (Mr Malcolm Fraser) in this chamber, has said that the main purpose of the Bill is to provide a legislative basis for the five major scholarship schemes under which the Commonwealth Government makes awards to students in schools, technical colleges, colleges of advanced education, universities and similar institutions. He has also informed us that up to the present the technical and secondary scholarship schemes are being handled on an administrative basis under ministerial direction. Post graduate awards, university scholarships and advanced education scholarships are covered under Commonwealth scholarships and awards regulations drawn up under the Education Act. The Bill repeals the Education Act 1945- 66 and therefore formally abolishes the Commonwealth Office of Education and the Commonwealth Scholarships Board. All honourable senators will remember that the Department of Education and Science was established at the end of 1966. The present Prime Minister, the right honourable J. G. Gorton, became the first Minister for Education and Science in the history of the Commonwealth. We have been told that most of the functions of the former education section of the Prime Minister's Department, which included the Commonwealth Office of Education, were taken over by the new Department, and that the proposed legislation merely formalises arrangements that have been applied in practice ever since the Department of Education and Science was established. I have some knowledge of the workings of the former Commonwealth Office of Education because, some years ago, the Public Accounts Committee conducted a very extensive examination of the functions and work of that body. We have also been told that the Commonwealth Scholarships Board has continued to function with responsibility with respect only to tertiary schemes of scholarship, but that under this Bill the Minister will be responsible for all schemes subject to the requirements of the Act and the regulations. 1 am sure that all honourable senators will concur with the Minister in his acknowledgment of the services of the Commonwealth Scholarships Board. We welcome his statement that he is examining what arrangements may be made so that the Government may continue to receive advice on specific matters affecting assistance to students. From my own knowledge the Commonwealth Scholarships Board has performed for many years a very worth while service. lt will be gratifying to many people if the Minister is able to make continuing use of those services in some way. As I said at the outset of my speech, it would be easy to roam all over the whole field of education but, in my opinion, the Bill is specific and therefore in what I have to say I would like to limit my remarks to the five scholarship schemes listed by the Minister in his second reading speech. These schemes are: Firstly, post graduate awards; secondly, university scholarships; thirdly, advanced education scholarships: fourthly, technical scholarships; and fifthly, secondary scholarships. 1 wish to refer briefly to each scheme. I have felt that as the debate has proceeded in this chamber there has been a misapprehension in some quarters as to the schemes and the benefits conferred under them. I wish to set out briefly the advantages that flow to students and parents alike in many cases as a result of these schemes. Post graduate awards provide assistance for post graduate students at Australian universities, usually to a master's degree or a doctor's degree. These are most valuable to students who are able to take advantage of them because, in addition to quite generous allowances, the students also receive a stipend which enables them to pursue post graduate studies without undue hardship. The Commonwealth universities scholarship scheme provides for awards for full time and part time first degree and diploma courses at Australian universities. During the debate the three types of scholarships have been mentioned. I refer to open entrance scholarships at matriculation, later year scholarships for students who have completed some university studies, and mature age scholarships for students who have turned 25 years of age. Within those three types of award the Commonwealth Government is granting assistance to students at various educational levels. In my opinion it is a most embracing scheme. J said earlier that it appears from statements that have been made by some honourable senators that they are under a misapprehension, or at least there is some confusion in their minds, particularly with regard to a means test in respect of scholarships. I remind honourable senators of the facts of the scheme. The Commonwealth university scholarships scheme includes the payment of all compulsory fees for all award holders without a means test, lt is true that there is a means test on the living allowances. In 1969 the maximum living allowances are $559 for a student living at home and $904.80 for a student living away from home. If 1 interpreted correctly the opinion of some of the honourable senators who have preceded me in this debate, they believed that the scholarships were all subject to a means test. They were making the point that students were unable to accept scholarships or parents were compelled to deny their children the opportunity to take up scholarships because of an overriding means test. Therefore 1 repeat that the means rest is only in relation to the living allowance and that there is no means test whatsoever in respect of compulsory fees. 1153 KRU 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator Little - That can be very important, to a medical student who is 23 or 24 years of age and still has to be kept like a child. 1153 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - 1 am not disputing the fact that it may be important. What I am saying is that the statement that these scholarships are all subject to a means test - that statement was made in respect of the whole range of scholarships - just is not true. 1153 KRU 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator Little - The scholarships are subject to a means test, but one phase of them is not. 1153 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - I agree. I am not disputing the fact - I will refer to this later - that parents and students have to work to enable students to stay at universities to complete their courses. But at the moment I am dealing with statements made by Opposition senators in which they claimed that the awards themselves were subject to a means test. Let me deal now with advanced education scholarships. These are awards for full time and part time study in diploma and other approved tertiary courses at technical colleges and similar institutions. Two kinds of scholarships are available - open entrance scholarships for students at matriculation level and later year scholarships for students who have completed part of an approved course. Here again the benefits are the same as those paid under the university scholarships scheme. In other words, compulsory tuition fees for advanced education are not subject to a means test. Technical scholarships provide awards mainly for certificate level courses at technical institutions. Substantial benefits arc available to a full time technical scholarship holder and also to a part time technical scholarship holder. The living allowance is $200 a year; there is a textbook and equip ment allowance of $50 a year; and there is a benefit of up to $150 a year for compulsory tuition fees, examination fees and service fees on production of receipts. A part time student holding a technical scholarship receives! an allowance of $100 a year and reimbursement of compulsory fees up to $100 a year. I come now to secondary scholarships. These are awarded for the final 2 years of secondary schooling. ] have heard only praise for the assistance given to parents through this scheme. The benefits available to a secondary scholarship holder include a living allowance of $200 a year, a textbook and equipment allowance of $50 a year and up to $150 a year for compulsory tuition fees, examination fees and service fees, on production of receipts. These are very substantial allowances in respect of the education of children, lt is true that everybody with any interest in education, particularly for children, would wish at all times that the utmost assistance be given to every child. But I do not believe that because we feel that way we should let our emotion run away with us to the extent that we see no good in what is already being done. 1 remind the Senate that all these schemes have been introduced by the present Liberal-Country Party Government. 1154 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - Who started them? 1154 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - Noone can dispute that all these schemes have been introduced by this Government. This is something that can never be taken away from it. 1154 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - But they have been introduced very much too late, don't you think? 1154 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - I am not one of those persons - I hope the honourable senator is not either - who try to destroy everything good that is being done by complaining that it is done too late. If these things were done too late, the Labor Party was in government before we were, so why did not it do them then? 1154 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - What about after 1949? 1154 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - The honourable senator is the one who is complaining. I have not sought to make comparisons between what is happening now and what happened years ago. The honourable senator is the one who is talking about things being done too late. If they have been done too late, his Party was responsible before we acepted responsibility. 1154 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - I think Senator Cohen means that it is so long since the Labor Party was in office that its members cannot recall what was done. 1154 KAW 0 0 WEDGWOOD, Ivy Senator Dame IVY WEDGWOOD - And it will be so long before the Labor Party gets back into office that even Senator Cohen's memory will be very much dimmed by that time. Now let me give the numbers of awards in 1969. I believe that they are impressive no matter what anyone says. They were: Post graduate awards, 650; university scholarship awards, 9,500; advanced education scholarships, 1,500; secondary scholarships, 10,000; and technical scholarships, 2,500; a total 24,150. When we add to that the estimated number of scholarship holders in training, which includes students who are .undertaking the second and third years of their courses, the number is 56,500. Therefore at the present time 56,500 students are having the advantage of the various scholarship schemes that are in operation. This is something that should, admittedly, encourage us to do more but at the same time we are entitled to feel proud of what has been achieved up to date. The extent to which the Commonwealth Government is providing direct assistance to these students can be gauged by some figures that were given in a ministerial statement recently. As recently as 1963-64 the Commonwealth was spending $67. 5m on education. The comparable figure for 1968- 69, five years later, is estimated to be $21 0.5m. This is a great increase in expenditure in 5 years. Another interesting comparison shows that whereas 10 years ago 22% of young people in the 15 to 18 years age group - Senator Cohen would be most interested in these children - were at school or were engaged in some other kind of full time education. By 1967 the percentage had risen to 38%, and it is higher today. The Minister for Education and Science reported very recently that in our schools at the present time there are approximately 300,000 pupils who are above the age of compulsory attendance. This compares with 100,000 ten years ago. It is not a gradual increase. It is a particularly rapid increase in the number of children who are being maintained at school after the age of compulsory attendance. I was also very interested to read that out of every 100,000 of our population there are 200 graduates at the present time from universities and other tertiary institutions. Ten years ago we were getting only 100 graduates for every 100,000 of the population. This indicates the great advantage not only to students who have an opportunity to do a university or other tertiary course but also to the nation as a whole. So we have to look at education in a broad way as it affects the individual and also as it affects the whole nation. I should like to deal very briefly with clauses 5 to 9 of the Bill, because these outline the kinds of scholarships and the institutions in which they may be held. The decision to include notification in the Commonwealth Gazette of the approved institutions should satisfy most of the objections that were raised when the legislation was before the Senate in 1967. The Minister in his second reading speech, following what had been stated by the Minister in another place, adverted to the question of ministerial responsibility and the discretion necessary to avoid what the Minister termed 'unreasonable treatment* and 'possible hardship*. This is appreciated and understood, but Senator Prowse - I thought very rightly - referred to the lack of information as to the form or the intention of the regulations. I know that it is not possible for the Senate to be informed now precisely of the. form or intention of the regulations and I for one shall be awaiting them with interest. We, of course, arc well aware of the fact that there is one safeguard with regard to regulations - this point was taken last night - because ali such regulations come under the scrutiny of the Senate Regulations and Ordinances Committee and it is within the power of the Senate to accept or reject regulations when they come before us. New ground is provided in the Bill for parliamentary scrutiny of the working out of the legislation by the provision for the presentation of an annual report to the Parliament. This. I think, is a very good feature of the Bill. I, with many others in the Senate, will look forward to the report of the Minister and we will be able then to follow better what is being done in relation to the Act. In conclusion, I should' like to commend the Government on' its interest in and assistance to education generally. I support the Bill, which replaces' what has evidently been a very loose working arrangement with what has been termed a 'legislative framework' within which the schemes may operate. I would not agree with anyone who tries to put forward the argument that the Commonwealth Government is lacking in its support for education generally or that it has been niggardly in its approach specifically. Within the powers conferred upon it under the Constitution, the Government has made increasing grants in many ways to education, but in my opinion none is more valuable than the one in which we seek to assist students to obtain a better education. In this, as I said earlier, we are helping not only the child but also the parents. I know of many,, many parents who are making tremendous sacrifices to ensure that their children obtain a better education than they themselves were able to acquire. So, Sir, I commend the Government on what it has done in the past. I believe that there is a need for assistance and that the demand , will increase. I also believe that this Government will make available increasing amounts of money , for assistance to education in a variety of ways. I regret that on many occasions instead of being given some credit for what has been done the Government is assailed, in my opinion, very unfairly. Sitting suspended from 12.45 to 2.15 p.m. 1156 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - I ask for leave to make a personal explanation. 1156 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - There being no objection, leave is granted. 1156 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - When this Bill was being debated by the Senate on 23rd April, in the course of my speech, as reported at page 1007 of Hansard, I gave some figures which I then believed to represent the percentage of scholarships offered to applications received in the technical college sphere. I find that 1 had insufficiently appreciated the document from which I was reading and that what I. was stating on that occasion was the percentage of the total number of scholarships which were awarded in each State. To make matters worse I indicated that the source of my information was the Legislative Research Service of the Library. I regret that this inaccurate information should have been given to the Senate. I am indebted to the Legislative Research Service for the correct figures. Scholarships offered, as a percentage of applications received, were as follows: In New South Wales, 23.8%; in Victoria, 28.1%; in Queensland, 22.3%; in South Australia, 32.8%; in Western Australia, 16.2%; and in Tasmania, 60.9%. I would appreciate it if those figures were now regarded as being substituted for those which I gave inadvertently in error on 23rd April. 1156 KAS Victoria 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The Bill before us brings forcibly to . the Senate and to the Australian public generally the manner in which the Menzies, Holt and Gorton-McEwen Administrations have pursued and are pursuing the very important social advances in this Commonwealth. In particular the Bill highlights the advancement in educational assistance provided for students in a number of fields. We must congratulate the Government on the excellent manner in which it has sought to improve educational standards in Australia. Indeed, over the past 5, 10 or 15 years one has been able to sense a change in the attitude of people throughout the community in their recognition of the great importance of education in this country and in this country's future. I consider that it is of immense importance that we maintain high standards of education in the community and also maintain Australia's standing in the world. There are nations of much greater population than ours in areas quite near to our shores. Only by having an advanced society in Australia will we be able to take proper advantage of the great assets that we have and be able to use them effectively. The Bill deals with the important matter of allocating scholarships in five areas. It applies to scholarships for post-graduate students, to scholarships for university training and for advanced education, and it relates also to technical scholarships and secondary scholarships. As to the amount of money involved, next year $35m will be required to cover the expense of that which is proposed in the Bill. Not one member of the Senate objects to this measure. 1 regard that as a recognition of its importance and acceptance. The matter of finance for education is one of the most important and controversial questions in Australia today. The Federal Government has been able to develop its activities in education because in Australia we have now quite a sizeable income from taxation which can be applied in this area. I have no doubt that if it had been suggested some years ago that in 1969 the Federal Government would be spending so many millions of dollars in the various fields of education there would have been great arguments to show that the amount could not be found. It should be mentioned that there is some disquiet in the minds of members of State governments about the manner in which the Federal Government is entering the field of education, but it must be remembered that already we have a Department of Education and Science under the leadership of a well qualified Minister who is leading his Department very ably. It is considered in many places that the Federal Government's activities in education are an interference in State government affairs. I think no-one would deny that. 1156 JQQ 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus Senator Cormack - Under section 96 of the Constitution the Parliament has power to grant financial assistance to any State on such terms and conditions as it thinks fit. 1156 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I appreciate the comments made by the honourable senator. I hope they have some relevance to what we are talking about. 1156 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator Marriott - You should try to emulate his example. 1157 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I do not doubt that in Senator Marriott's State, as well as in mine, there is disquiet about the manner in which the Federal Government is entering the field of educational assistance. The disquiet exists not only among members of Parliament, both government and opposition, but is evident also among some members of the community. Does any honourable senator deny that? I do not suggest that the attitude is detrimental to education throughout Australia, but there are some people who have their own view as to the manner in which education should be maintained as a State responsibility. Certainly areas of previous responsibility in education in the States are being eroded by the manner in which the Commonwealth Government is going about its work. The influence which the Federal Government has in relation to university management is something which must be considered today. If I may revert to my reference to finance, I was anxious to mention the great effort made by the State Government in Victoria in providing its financial allocation for education. It is a wonderful effort in a most important area. In 1967-68 the Victorian Government spent more than 30% of its total budget on education by providing $240,134,254 in that field. Perhaps Senator Cormack will correct me if I have not stated the percentage correctly. 1157 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - it is nearly 50% in New South Wales. 1157 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - These are enormous amounts to be expended by the States in just one field of tertiary education. I had been referring to the attitude some people are taking to possible interference by the Federal authorities in the administration of not the educational systems including the universities. In this connection, I was most interested in a statement made by Professor Hills last week at a meeting at which the question of university relations with science and industry overseas and in Australia was discussed. Amongst the points which he made, this one in particular was marked by me: - Policies are rapidly being established by the Ministry ot Science and Education in relation to technical colleges and the identification of priorities for research. These will have marked effect on us very shortly. The universities may well find that they will be forced to adopt new attitudes and 1 make no excuse for using the word 'forced'. 1 quote the kind of direction by the AUC thai has already caused us to cut down rapidly on >ingle subject student enrolments, to move towards the abolition of sub-graduate diplomas and to rigidly control our total enrolments. This is a man whose opinion 1 have heard quoted over a number of years and 1 believe that the point he makes here is well taken. Perhaps he has more knowledge of this matter than I have. He went on to say: In former years we might have debated these questions and made our own decisions but we now work within the ambits and policies laid clown by other authorities and enforced by the power of the dollar. Whilst recognising the importance of what is taking place in the educational field under the auspices of the Federal Government, [ make the point that all authorities must give sympathetic consideration to what the projected ideas of the Federal authority will be. 1157 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - In what way do you suggest force is influencing the course you mention? 1157 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I take it thai the point, made by the professor was that in actual fact the Australian Universities Commission had issued some direction which had forced- a° cut down. I quoted what the Professor had said. 1 can only assume that what he said was correct. If it was not correct, then it would be as well if ' the Commonwealth authority made some comment about the matter. The address to which 1 have referred was published in all the Victorian newspapers last week. 1 understand it was published in the 'Australian' last Thursday. I believe that there might be some directions in which the universities are not being left with all the authority that they would wish to have. 1 have already said that I acknowledge the wonderful work being done by the Federal authorities. I do not say that complete autonomy need rest with the universities. In fact, when it comes to the management of finance; I feel that what the Federal authorities may do with the force of the dollar may be very much to the benefit of the universities. But I have pointed out that in the minds of the State Governments, in the mind of the general public and in the minds of some academic people there is some doubt as to the influence that the new department might have on their particular areas of management. 1158 KQQ 0 0 LAUGHT, Keith Senator Laught - The State governments do not have to take this help, you know. 1158 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - 1 agree, but I do not think that would mean very much to the South Australian Government or the Victorian Government. 1 feel that they are going to be most, anxious to get this money. 1158 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Would you mind stating in what field the professor said they are being forced to adopt certain attitudes? 1158 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - In the first place, the professor used the words 'technical colleges'. He then went on to say: The universities may well find they will be forced lo adopt new attitudes and 1 make no excuse for using the word 'forced'. I quote the kind of direction by the AUC that has already caused us to cm down rapidly on single subject student enrolments, to move towards the abolition of sub-grade diplomas, and to rigidly control our total enrolments. Let me point out here that I have endeavoured to have sent to me an exact copy of the professor's speech, lt was taken on tape and then transcribed from the tape. 1 can only hope that the words I quoted are the exact words used by the professor. But I think the point he was making is quite clear. The Minister might care to comment on this matter later. I believe that as we progress with Commonwealth aid in the field of university education we undoubtedly will conflict with the wishes of certain individuals throughout universities and other educational institutions. One point that I do wish to discuss relates to assistance by Federal authorities to students who in the mind of the public, are to all intents arid purposes spending too much of their time in ways other than those calculated to give them most benefit from the particular scholarship which they have been awarded.' J refer to certain activities of students which have been under discussion from lime to time and the attitude adopted by certain students within the various colleges. One thing I should like to discuss is the need for the authorities to take adequate safeguards with relation to the use of drugs by students of universities and other educational institutions. One important factor that we must continually bear in mind is that we must be prepared to provide finance in future for the enormous growth that is likely to take place in the number of students who will be attending universities. As yet I have not become aware of any statement made by the Commonwealth Ministry which would indicate that it recognises that there is to be an enormous growth in the number of students attending universities. I realise that we are aware that many more students are going to flow into the universities, our colleges of advanced education and like institutions, but one thing that has struck me very forcibly is the great problem that besets the management of universities in the development of their various facilities on a particular campus. As honourable senators know. I was recently overseas attending a conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Whilst overseas, 1 visited Canada where I spoke to a gentleman who was adviser to the Vice-Chancellor of one large university in Canada. He mentioned several points which have remained firmly in my mind. He told me that at his university the enrolment 5 years ago was 18,000 students. He told me that the authorities at that university planned for a growth in enrolment, but could never has envisaged the tremendous growth which did in fact take place during the 5 year period. He mentioned that the number enrolled increased from 1S.000 to 33,000 in 5 years. What struck me then was the great problem which faces a university even in having to plan for a growth of that kind. I alert our new Commonwealth Ministry to the likelihood of that problem arising here. I believe that from such an enormous growth How many of the problems confronting the students at universities as well as those who administer the institutions. The gentleman who spoke to me had, in his day, held an administrative job in the Navy. He was a retired naval man. He had administered a cadet school of some 6,000 individuals. I can imagine what a tough man he must have been lo control such a college. He said that he had found that they had to give in to student demands although he had thought years ago that this could never happen. He said that the demands of the students had to be met. 1159 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - What university? 1159 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - 1 do not know that I should give the name of the university but undoubtedly the numbers I could cite would quickly identify it. 1159 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - A university in Canada? 1159 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - In Canada. He mentioned then one of the demands made by the students of a particular faculty. They demanded that there should be no final examinations for the granting of a degree. I imagine that this is a subject that has been discussed in the community. I have read on a number , of occasions that it is being proposed, even in this country. The point is that the university agreed that no examination would be required for the granting of a degree in the field of political science because of a decision made by the students. 1159 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Is that not an abdication of the responsibility of the people in control of the universities? 1159 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Now the Minister has made a statement. I hope he will seek authority to apply that principle and use it on every occasion when we have these interruptions to university work such as riots on the campus and demands by students as to what they should do. I could cite a number of other things mentioned to me while I was overseas relating to the demands of students at that college. They demanded that the sexes be able to mix at all times. Recently at a university - it is not in Canada - the showering facilities became freely available for both sexes to use. Such a demand has not yet been voiced in Australia. However, I believe that if the demands by students continue along the lines of those made by students overseas, the Minister's words will have to be applied to the authorities in order that they do not forgo the responsibility placed in their hands. 1159 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Why did the Canadian authorities have to submit to the demands of the students? Was any explanation given? 1159 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - The explanation given to me regarding the incidents I have cited was that if they had not submitted or had attempted to use force against the students the university would have been put back as many years as was the Columbia University by the attempt to use force against the students there. That is what I was told. There is a further point which our federal authority may well take into account. In the years that I have been in the Senate the problem of the taking of drugs has been gradually increasing throughout the community. There have been demands by the Opposition and by Government supporters that more severe measures be taken to control drug taking. Perhaps the attempts made to control this habit have been successful; perhaps they have not. We hear of very little drug taking in Australian universities. However, I was told on a visit to the university I have mentioned that a survey Conducted there and at another Canadian university had revealed that over 80% of the students at the two universities had already been on a trip on drugs and that more than one-third of that number were regular drug takers. The word hooked' was used. If is difficult to imagine that this could be the position. However, if what we hear about events overseas is the truth then the federal authority in Australia should take a stand in the matter because of what is likely to happen in Australian universities. This is a most important matter. We should not degrade the very elite of the community by allowing the taking of drugs or the sale of drugs which, apparently, is carried on openly in some universities overseas. I mention these things, Mr Deputy President, because I believe that our Department of Education and Science could perhaps assume a wider roving commission than a degree of interference in the various State, spheres. I note that under this Bill the Commonwealth Office of Education and the Commonwealth Scholarships Board are both abolished. I note also that there is to be no replacement at present for the Scholarships Board. I suggest it would be wise to see that this matter is attended to fairly shortly. However, I believe the Minister envisages doing so, I well .recall that a similar Bill was before the Senate last year and that the Senate rejected it. We know the reasons why it was. rejected. I want to draw attention to the very wide discretion which this Bill purports to give to the Minister. I suggest that no Bill that has come before this Parliament has given a Minister such wide discretion in a particular field, lt may be a good thing that there is this wide discretion and 1 do not oppose it. I merely wish to draw the attention of honourable senators to the point 1 make. 1 instance the many times that it has been necessary to state that the Minister will have entire discretion. In clause 5, at line 3, it is stated that 'in accordance with the regulations' a certain thing may be granted by the Minister. In fact, clause 5 states: Scholarships, to be known as Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships, may,- subject to and in accordance wilh (he regulations, be granted by the Minister ... 1 am merely instancing some of the many occasions in this Bill where there is a discretion in the hands of the Minister. At line 5 these words are used: 'at a level approved by the Minister'. At line 8 we read these Words: 'Under a direction of the Minister'. At line 12 the Bill states: 'granted by the Minister'. At line 14 it states: 'any course approved by the Minister'. At line 17 it states: 'under a direction of the Minister'; at line 21 we read: 'be granted by the Minister'; at line 23: 'any course approved by the Minister'; and at line 26: 'under a direction of the Minister'. This Bill provides a very wide discretion for the Minister. As 1 read the Bill it is only in clause 1 8 that it makes clear that the Parliament may know what the Minister has determined. It is very important for us to be aware of the determinations made by the Minister in this very important and controversial field of education so that we will know that there is no discrimination in the States. Clause 18(1.) states: An approval, direction or determination of the Minister under this Act may be varied or revoked by the Minister. I have not quite come to the point, 1 suppose, because this sub-clause deals with a determination, a direction or revocation by the Minister. 1160 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - Does the honourable senator suggest that the approval, direction or determination should remain in force for all time and should be incapable of variation? 1160 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - To understand the full implications of the Bill I would have to read the Minister's second reading speech. 1160 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - And properly understand it. 1160 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Yes. Clause 18(2.) states - and this is the core of the point I wish to make: The Minister shall make such arrangements as he thinks proper for giving public notice of the giving or making by him under this Act of any approval, direction or determination or of any variation or revocation by him of such an approval, direction or determination. That sub-section has been worded very loosely. Perhaps that was done for a particular reason, but 1 am not sufficiently informed on clause 18 to say that it enables me to understand fully the reasons for a direction, approval or determination by the Minister, or any variations thereto. 1160 JZU 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator Ormonde - The honourable senator is very brave. 1160 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I do not think there is anything particularly brave about mentioning these matters. The Minister for Works (Senator Wright), who is at the table, is very anxious to hear the comments of honourable senators on the Bill. I draw attention to the fact that this Bill is worded very loosely. Parts of it are worded loosely for a very sound reason and I understand why this would be so. I add my great appreciation to .that expressed by other honourable senators for what the Government has done by introducing this Bill. The Government is entering into the field of education and science in a most helpful way. Senator Ormonde will agree with mc that the Bill will be of great advantage to students throughout the Commonwealth and that the work which will be done under the provisions of the Bill could not be done by any State Government. I congratulate the Minister on the Bill. 1160 KQN South Australia 0 0 LAUCKE, Condor Senator LAUCKE - The debate on this Bill has been very comprehensive and most interesting. The financial implications of the scholarship scheme have been very clearly and comprehensively indicated by Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood. I confine my remarks to a few overall observations about scholarship schemes generally. I would say that one of the most pleasant ways in which the Department of Education and Science helps to further the cause of education is in the provision of scholarships. This year some 56,000 students hold scholarships under five Commonwealth schemes. This year 24,150 new scholarships were offered. The significance of these numbers cannot escape the notice of anyone who desires to see an ever-growing opportunity for our youth to receive that educational background which is vital to the person receiving it and to the well-being and the progress of the nation generally. Equality of opportunity in education is afforded to all under our nation's education system. It is good to know that the Government has provided financial assistance to enable talent to come to fruition. Over the years, throughout the nation, students, without the assistance of scholarships, would not have been able to attain their goals or achieve their ambitions. In the process of the education of these students the national welfare has been served admirably because we have had the benefit of talents which otherwise would have remained dormant and to which expression would never have been given. Without a scholarship scheme the individual students would not have been assisted to a higher educational level, and as a result many things which collectively we need in a modern society of well educated people would not have been provided. With the passing of the years the need is growing for better educated people, for people educated in the sense referred to by Senator McManus yesterday when he referred to the quality of education and the fact that people are not necessarily educated in a complex of buildings and impersonal surroundings which lack vitality. What is needed is a real drawing out of the individual's ability to think, to be prepared, to investigate and to look deeply into things. The purpose of education in its broadest sense is to bring out the basic characteristics of the individual and to develop the character of the individual. Education also enables the populace to achieve standards which will ensure better conditions overall. The Government is providing no Jess than $28.9m this year, or approximately $540,000 per week. This will be of inestimable benefit to students. In 1964-65, $12.7m was provided for scholarship schemes. The increase in the amount provided over the years illustrates the acceptance of the need for scholarship schemes. Without any further changes in the rates or conditions of expen diture, it is expected that the monetary provision will amount to S35m in 1971-72, which would work out at $700,000 each week of the year to be devoted to giving scholarships to the optimum number of students. I do not think we really appreciate the breadth and the scope of the many avenues of education and learning which are bound up in these scholarship schemes. This growing breadth and scope covers all facets of requirements of a modern society. 1 conclude by paying my humble tribute to the Government for what it has done over the years, through the scholarship schemes, to assist the individual and in the national interest to provide something which will ensure - as I have no :doubt whatever that it will - a better nation for the future. I have pleasure in supporting. this Bill. 1161 KBW tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - in reply - I am sure the Minister for Education and Science (Mr .Malcolm Fraser) will be as gratified as I am about the degree of attention that has been given to this Bill, which is one of the Government's contributions towards furthering the cause of education. It is particularly pleasing that the Government should have the support of so many of its colleagues in the Senate who took the time to prepare their speeches and express their individual thoughts on the various facets of education. It could be expected that the parliamentary debate on this subject would be of interest to students and educationalists because the subject of education is a vital issue which is of interest to the community as a. .whole. I am sure that the contributions that have been so thoughtfully made in the Senate will be read with interest. Several speakers on the Government side have referred to some of the general facets of education since the present Federal Government really implemented a policy of expansion of educational assistance. I wish to refer to only two or three aspects generally. In particular it should be noted, as a means of comparison, that over the past 7 years from 1961-62 to the current financial year 1968-69 total Commonwealth financial assistance has risen from $55m to $2 10m. In 1955-56 this expenditure represented 2% of total Commonwealth expenditure whereas in 1968-69 it is 4% of total Commonwealth expenditure. Another feature that we all could bear in mind with real interest is the specific increase that has been made in scholarship assistance. In 1961-62 our scholarship assistance amounted to S6m. As my colleagues have said, in the current year it is $29m. I shall refer to that aspect at a later stage of my speech in reply but 1 point out that in 7 years the aggregate amount has grown from $6m to $29m. Then it should be noted that not only is the Federal Government making an increased contribution from its Budget in respect of education but also that the State governments of Australia have increased their aggregate appropriations over the past 10 years from S225m to $646m. When we realise that those increased appropriations by the States have been enabled, in a large measure, by the improved reimbursement grants that have been arranged in relation to income tax revenue, I think all honourable senators will record with satisfaction that all governments in Australia recognise the increasing need for financial assistance in the field of education. That follows from the emphatic initiation and maintenance of policy that emanated from the Menzies Government in the early and mid-1950s. I want to say one thing in deference to what Senator McManus said in the course pf the debate. He said that he was not very much impressed by a recital of figures showing budgetary appropriations to the cause pf education. I felt that his meaning was that that was not the sole criterion by which the national education effort should be judged. He thoughtfully called attention to the need for constant vigilance in respect of the content of education - what was being taught - and the conditions in which access to education should be made available to every student. It is pertinent to remind ourselves that if there are activities of an untoward nature on the campus which deter or exclude students, or which curtail a field of study which some students wish to undertake, those really are restrictions that have no proper place within a genuine university. Perhaps it is particularly timely at this time to refer to that matter. Fortunately we have not reached that stage in Australia yet. I should like to incorporate a reference to what has fallen so recently from my colleague, Senator Webster, with regard to the number of students at a Canadian university having increased from 20,000 to 32,000 in the course of a short bracket of years - say 6 or 7 years - that increase in number leading to a changed attitude whereby the government of the university waived a final examination for a degree. I go on record as saying that no government that is worthy of calling itself a government will appropriate money to a weakling university of that kind. Nor does the government of a university that yields to that kind of pressure deserve to exercise the functions of a university government. lt is salutary to remind ourselves that before this grand campaign of educational assistance was entered, upon by the Menzies Government, the Government, as 1 have said in this Senate before with a great deal of pride, took advice from Sir Hugh Murray and interpolated between the political government of the country and the governments of the various universities the Australian Universities Commission. The whole purpose of the Constitution of that Commission was to remove the universities from direct contact with and individual interference by any political government. The Government decided that there would be a commission composed mainly of university people who would represent the general contact with the individual universities and would convey a general recommendation to the political government, thereby removing in a large measure the possibility that political government might interfere unduly with any university. The question as to a final examination for a degree is a peculiar responsibility of the university government and has to be exercised upon a genuine consideration of all factors relevant to education. It should not in the slightest degree be governed by the idea that a number of students on the campus putting forward that view could prevail upon the university government against its will. 1162 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - That is not exactly the way in which I put the proposition. 1162 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - That is as I understood it. If it has missed the mark I incorporate that remark out of the deference I have for the honourable senator's comments. Having said that, let me now make one or two references to the debate to which we have listened. The first speaker in the debate was Senator Cohen, who led for the Opposition. It is unfortunate. I think, that the honourable senator, not only in the instance to which he directed our attention on the resumption of the debate after lunch but in various other respects as well, either has failed to quote accurate figures or has quoted them in a sense in which they do not justify the conclusions that he drew from them. I wish to remind the Senate of some of the things that Senator Cohen said in his contribution to the debate. His speech is recorded in Hansard of 23rd April 1969. Senator Cohen put forward the view thai the proportion of successful applicants for university scholarships is decreasing. The honourable senator is trying to give the Senate the impression that because the figures he quoted at page 1006 of Hansard seem to show a decreasing percentage of successful applicants for scholarships, this is something of' real significance. 1163 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - lt means that competition is fierce. 1163 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I do not think that I interjected very much during the honourable senator's speech. My purpose in rising is to try to collate figures in as accurate a way as I can so thai they will be on record and will elucidate the position for the Senate. All I am emphasising at the moment is the invalidity of using figures showing the number of applications for scholarships as a basis upon which to judge the progress of the scholarships scheme. The fact is that because of the increased availability of scholarships generally there has been a tendency over recent years for application statistics to be inflated. Students are also putting in applications for scholarships long before the results of their examinations are known. It is quite obvious that the number of applications for scholarships has no relationship to the question whether the proportion of university entrants who receive scholarships is increasing. In fact, about 25% of the studnets who are offered Commonwealth university scholarships reject them. So, not only are the application statistics inflated, but also we find that 25% of the students who are offered scholarships reject them. These offers are rejected because of, amongst other things, the variety of scholarships that are available today. Students put in application for several types of scholarships and accept the one which best suits them. At page 1006 of Hansard Senator Cohen is also reported as saying that a student offering himself today for a university course has less chance of getting a scholarship than he did in 1952. The honourable senator quoted figures to support his viewpoint. As a matter of fact, in 1952 the number of entrants to bachelor degree courses at Australian universities represented a little less than 5% of the age group for university entrance. In 1968, even taking into account the increased population, the corresponding figure was 11%. The next comment I wish to make relates to the statement by Senator Cohen that he had some difficulty reconciling certain figures. In that respect it would appear that the honourable senator used figures which were given in the other place in February of this year in reply to question No. 595 on the notice paper. Those figures are correctly quoted but they relate specifically to applications for all types of university scholarships - open entrance scholarships, mature age scholarships and later year scholarships - and not merely to open entrance scholarships as the honourable senator stated. The second set of figures that the honourable senator quoted at page 1007 of Hansard refers specifically to open entrance scholarships, lt appears that the honourable senator had difficulty reconciling those figures, too. I wish to place it on record that the figure of 16.9% relates to open entrance scholarships and the figure of 18.3% relates to all awards. I repeat my earlier statement that the figures the honourable senator has given are doubtful because the whole structure of his statistics is based on the number of applications for scholarships. A more valid basis for considering whether the Government is making progress with its awards is to relate the number of awards to the number of university entrants and not the number of scholarship applicants. Senator Cohen also made a comparison between the number of mature agc university scholarships available and the number of applicants for those scholarships. As we have been informed by Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood, and this fact has since been confirmed, mature age university scholarships are granted only to students who have turned 25 years of age. A comparison between the number of applications and the number of awards is again doubtful. By way of illustration it might be noted that of 1,659 applicants in 1968 for mature agc university scholarships less than 1,000 had obtained sufficiently good results to be considered. lt might also be noted that the number of mature age university awards was increased from 120 in 1968 to 250 in 1969. Senator Cohen also referred to a comparison of later year university scholarships. Again, I refer to the fact that statistics on the number of applications are of little value. For example, of nearly 7,000 applicants in 1968 only 5,000 met the minimum academic requirements and of that figure only 2,000 or 40% were successful in gaining awards. Senator Cohen said that opportunities for university scholarships were being eroded. The figures I wish to quote relate not to applications for Commonwealth university scholarships but to the number of Commonwealth university scholarships granted and they exclude higher degree scholarships. In 1 952, shortly after the scheme began. 25% of university students held Commonwealth scholarships. In 1956, the figure was 28%; in 1968 it was still 28%. We should remind ourselves that whereas the 25% in 1952 represented 6,608 university scholarship holders, in 1968 the 28% represented 24,784 scholarship holders. It is clear that an entirely wrong impression is given by the figures quoted by Senator Cohen in this context. One would be led to believe, in following the use that he made of the statistics, that our actual contribution in the form of university scholarships had withered in that time, whereas we have maintained and improved the percentage of university population - university entrants over the period - from 25% in 1952 to 28% in 1968, and the actual number of scholarship holders in that period from 6,608 to 24,784. That comes from the fact that the population of university entrants has increased much more rapidly than the general population. I need not refer to the further figures cited by the honourable senator as reported al page 1007 of Hansard, because he himself took the occasion early this afternoon to correct them. At page 1008 Senator Cohen is reported to- have said that he thinks there is a need for a national survey of education matters. We had a debate recently in the Senate on an associated issue and negatived the- view that a general inquiry should be conducted. However, for the satisfaction of honourable senators I advise that the Minister and his Department are in constant consultation with vice-chancellors' committees, national unions of university students, education departments and all education authorities who are constituted in such a way that they meet regularly. What I have said is evidence that a vigilant attitude is maintained by the Federal Department. Senator Cohen, as he has done on previous occasions, referred to certain figures as a percentage of the gross national product, or the national income, of other countries which he says demonstrate that other countries devote a greater percentage of their national product to education than we do. He instanced, if you please, Venezuela and Iraq, as well as Morocco and Korea. It is entirely fallacious to refer to figures of that sort because the component of the education appropriation in those countries is completely unknown. It is not a valid comparison unless you have a fairly identical subject in each country. We have been unable to confirm, or indeed to find, figures in respect of Venezuela or Iraq, but with regard to Morocco and Korea it should go oh record that so far from their figures being greater than Australia's, they are less. Senator Cohen was good enough to treat us to a contention' that we should adjust scholarships according to the cost of living. I suppose most honourable senators know that in the period from 1951 to 1968 the consumer price index rose by 92%. In the same period the maximum living allowances for the two types of scholarships to which they are appropriate - Commonwealth university scholarships and advanced education scholarships - rose by 115% for students living at home, and by- 111 % for students living away from home. So that whereas the consumer price index rose in the period by 92%, the cost of living allowance for the two types of scholarship 1 have named rose in one instance by 115% and in the other instance by 111%. In approximately the same period- from 1951 to 1969- the adjusted family income upon which the living allowance is adjusted has been increased from $800 to $2,500. or an increase of over 300%. Where then is the value in an education debate of suggesting that we have been failing to adjust the advantages and benefits of these scholarships having regard to the known increase in the cost of Jiving? So much for Senator Cohen's contribution. I will now. without unduly detaining the Senate, refer to the speech of my colleague from Tasmania. Senator Marriott. My colleague urged that we avail ourselves of extensive publicity. I want him to know that many thousands of brochures and application cards are distributed each year to secondary schools and the institutions in which scholarships can be held. Posters are also distributed and advertisements are placed in newspapers at times near to the closing date of applications. These are the efforts we make at the present time to bring to the notice of all students who may be interested the availability of scholarships. I am obliged to my colleague for the reminder that that notwithstanding, some students fail to be notified of the availability of these scholarships. However, it will be some satisfaction to Senator Marriott to be reminded that the Department is conscious of the need for a real effort to publicise the availability of scholarships and to direct its attention to that specific purpose quite consciously and in a sustained manner. Senator Marriott also suggested that statistics in the Department's annual report should be related to the financial year, rather than the period ending as soon as possible after December in each year. Annual reports cover the period to December each year so as to coincide with the academic year. All Australian schools and university institutions govern themselves on the basis of an academic year ending at Christmas. Therefore it is most desirable that statistics and other material available in the annual report should be collated on the same basis. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Laught) - Order! The Minister's time has expired. Suspension of Standing Orders 1165 JQR 0 0 COTTON, Bob Senator Cotton - 1 move: That so much of standing order 407a be suspended as would prevent Senator Wright speaking in reply for more than 30 minutes. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT - There not being present an absolute majority of thirty-one senators, I order that the bells be rung. (The bells having been rung and an absolute majority of senators being present) Question resolved in the affirmative. 1165 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - 1 am most obliged to the Senate for its courtesy. 1 come now to a reference to the speech made by Senator Prowse. The particular point of his speech to which I refer is his concern about the expression in the Bill which leaves the courses that qualify for scholarships to be approved by the Minister. The courses are not to be prescribed by regulation. The courses are to be such as are 'approved by the Minister'. In this connection I refer to advanced education scholarships, university scholarships, post-graduate awards, technical scholarships and secondary scholarships in respect of the level of secondary education. I think honourable senators will best understand my approach if I ask them to refer to the annual report of the Commonwealth Scholarships Board for 1967, which is the last one to have been published. Under- the heading 'Approval of Courses* they will see an indication of the past attitude of the Minister. No doubt, that will be subject to no great variation in the future. Under the sub-heading 'Commonwealth University Scholarship Scheme', the first course listed is a diploma course in education at the University of New South Wales. In respect of that the Board reports: A post-graduate Diploma in Education course is available at the University of New South Wales. It is a 1 year full time course of study but it is anticipated it will also be offered later on a part time basis over 2 years. The course is open to graduate students from the University of New South Wales and other approved universities. The next item illustrates the point quite clearly. It is headed 'Diploma in Applied Psychology - University of Newcastle' and reads: A post-graduate Diploma in Applied Psychology was introduced at the University of Newcastle in 1.967 to enable graduates with majors in psychology to gain additional specialisation. Candidates for the diploma are required to complete 1 year of full time and 2 years of part time study. lt is of advantage that I . refer to one or two other items, I hope not too tediously. The third item is headed 'Combined Course : - Bachelor of Commerce/Bachelor of Laws - University of Queensland' and reads: The combined course Bachelor of Commerce/ Bachelor of Laws is now being offered at the University of Queensland. Under this combination a. student can complete the requirements for bachelor, degrees in both the Faculties of Commerce and Law in 6 years of study (4 years full time arid 2 years part time). Then, reference is made to a combined course in arts and law at the University of Adelaide. I will omit one or two other items and then refer to an interesting one, which is headed 'Diploma in Computer Science - University of Adelaide' and reads: A post-graduate Diploma in Computer Science course is available' at the University of Adelaide. Then reference is made to a combined course for the degrees of Bachelor, of Music and Bachelor of Arts. The eighth item is a post-graduate Diploma in Rural Accounting. I pass from university scholarships to advanced education scholarships. In this section of the report . reference is made to a course for a Diploma of General Science at the Emily Mcpherson College of Domestic Economy, a sub-primary teacher training course at the Dominican Training College, Watson, and other subprimary teacher training courses, as well as other courses. The reason for this provision in the Bill, under which the approval of courses is left to the Minister, is so that, no doubt always on the advice of the technical officers of his Department, consideration can be given to the content of any of these individual courses that are proposed by universities and other institutions. They vary so much that a decision is required on each one. They concern not postgraduate studies for a master's degree or a Ph.D. degree but studies for bachelor's degrees and diplomas, including postgraduate diplomas but not post-graduate degrees. I suggest that on reflection my colleagues will agree that the instances I haVe given show that the variety of courses requires individual decisions by the Minister. I know that the aspect about which Senator Prowse is concerned is that there should not be a subjection pf education to the individual viewpoint pf a political officer - a Minister. We have always to be on our guard against that because it is capable of abuse. But the safeguards here are, firstly, that the course has to be proposed by the university or educational institution; secondly, that in our system of government it is to be expected that the Minister will not act upon his personal or political preconceived ideas but will act with the advice of his education officers; and thirdly - I need not remind honourable senators of this - that he is' always answerable to the most vigilant attention of the members of the Senate. So, in those respects I suggest that, : the Bill having incorporated, as I reminded' the Senate in the second reading speech, the important principles of benefits and conditions of awards in regulations,' the Senate can safely entrust the approval of courses to the Minister in the circumstances to which 1 have referred. Senator McClelland made a claim that in the New South Wales Department of Education teacher trainees could manipulate the system - 'manipulate' is the only word appropriate to the process he envisaged - so that they could get more out of using a teacher .training scholarship from that Department and then resigning than they could get out of a Commonwealth scholarship. Of course, the fact is that the teacher trainee student is under bond - usually for 3 . years and maybe up to 5 years - and it -has always to be recognised that one would expect a student who commits himself to an -obligation to serve in an education department for from 3 to 5 years after the completion of his training to get a few dollars more during his training period than one who simply avails himself of a - Commonwealth scholarship and is free to use his education where he will at a later time. I should just like to have it on record that those figures that Senator McClelland gave and which appear on page 1038 of Hansard are now out of date.. For 1969 there are 9,500 university scholarships, comprising 7,500 open entrance scholarships, including 250 mature age awards and 2,000 later awards. 1167 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - How many applications? 1167 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I regret that Senator McClelland was not, I think, in the chamber when I referred to the futility of using applications as a basis. 1 have gone quite fully into the claim that I make that we should relate them to the entrants in university rolls. He wm see that we have increased the number from about 6,000 to about 24,000 and, in the period from 1952 to 1968 improved the percentage from about 25% to 28%. 1167 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - 1 heard the Minister's argument. He still has not stated the number of applications. 1167 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - We regard the number of applications as a false guide. The honourable senator will find the figures strewn over the pages of Hansard in response to specific questions in another place. 1 wo li I'd urge that he no longer use false guides. 1167 KTA 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator McClelland - The Minister says that they are false. We do not. 1167 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Quite so. The next point to be made was that there was a great delay in announcing scholarships. I would like it to be understood by the honourable senator, because dissemination of criticism that has really no sound foundation is mischievous, that the majority of our scholarships are awarded after public examinations. lt is not possible to announce our scholarships until the public examination authorities have announced their decisions but we and the State education authorities are constantly exploring ways and means of getting the examination results out earlier. We say that our record is not too bad. For instance, in New South Wales this year the open entrance university and advanced education scholarships were announced on 1 0th January, 2 days after the relevant public examination results. Secondary scholarships were announced on 16th January, I day after the relevant public examination results. Technical scholarships for which selection is more complex, were announced 7 days after the last relevant examination results were published. The position in other States compares favourably with this. So 1 would have thought that that effort should in future escape criticism. Senator McClelland, as reported at page 1038 of Hansard, instanced a case in which a girl student had made an application, waited for information and then found that the position had been filled. Students have to recognise that to gain admission to institutions they may have to apply in advance of the publication of results in the same way as they have to apply in advance for scholarships. I do npt intend to go through each individual speech but I am sure that the Senate will be patient enough whilst one makes any reference to individual speeches which one thinks their content and courtesy demand. I should like to be permitted to refer to Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood's speech, first of all incorporating a reference to the Scholarship Board to which Senator Webster also referred. The Scholarship Board is being abolished under this legislation. I shall ensure that the comments of my two colleagues whom I have named are brought to the Minister's attention. 1 have no doubt that he will give consideration to their viewpoint with regard to the establishment of some other authority, but they will note what I said in the second reading speech in that respect. It is not an undertaking to substitute a new board or a new committee, but consideration will be given to it and, flowing with that is an invitation to any senator who has a viewpoint on the subject to be good enough to address it to the Minister individually by letter. This would enable him to consider it on that basis. Senator Dame Ivy Wedgwood also referred to the various scholarships. I wish to say only that she gave a much more detailed enumeration of the scholarships and the benefits than was given in any other speech in the Senate, and anybody who may be interested could refer to that description with advantage. She also mentioned this question of ministerial responsibility and said that the Minister must have some discretion to prevent injustice by reason of an unreasonable application of strict regulations in special cases. Senator Webster referred to that in much more comprehensive terms. He was good enough to suggest that the principle that he was advocating could be found expressed in my speech on a similar Bill in 1965. 1168 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Not in those words. 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - No, not in those words. J just want to take a little time, because great damage can be done by a misconception of this principle by those who seek to undermine it and those who seek to maintain it. Great damage can be done by a misunderstanding either above or below the line. 1168 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - And by walking on a tight rope, 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - No, not at all. This is a broad highway, the middle of which can be travelled easily by those who can either read or run. 1168 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - Senator Webster was on the opposite side of the argument. 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - If interjections are to displace my explanation we shall continue to be fogged. There are certain matters which a Minister exists to administer. That is his very purpose. It would be an insult to the parliamentarians to suggest that they, collectively assembled in Parliament, should have to attend to matters such as the approval of the content of an individual or particular course. But there are other matters which are the subject of a rule of law and, if they are of a detailed nature, our practice is to put them in subordinate legislation. I refer to regulations which, we have been forcibly reminded, not only in past years but also in recent times, this Senate is vigilant to supervise. When we come to the conditions of eligibility for a scholarship and the benefits to be provided by a scholarship, they are matters of definition by regulation. But, looking at clause 5, for example, which states that 'scholarships, to be known as Commonwealth Secondary Scholarships, may, subject to and in accordance with the regulations, be granted by the Minister' for Senator Webster to say that this is a case of undue authority being left to the Minister is to show that he fails in a marked degree to give a proper understanding to the words 'subject to and in accordance with the regulations'. After the passage of this Bill no other scholarships may lawfully be granted by the Minister; he may grant only those provided for by the regulations. 1168 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - Why the word 'may' and not 'shall'? 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Because the Parliament never fixes appropriations by regulation and the Minister has to quantify the number of scholarships that will comply with the regulations by reference to the annual appropriation of Parliament. Therefore, we authorise him to issue the scholarships in accordance with that mechanism. I come then to the next instance referred to by Senator Webster, that is, in subclause (2.). 1168 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Before doing so would the Minister refer to line 5 of that clause which refers to -a course of secondary education at a level approved by the Minister for the purposes of this section.'? 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - 1 had not intended to refer to every line mentioned by the honourable senator. I was conscious of the fact that a speech of this sort is a little difficult to listen to and 1 was endeavouring to spare him. 1168 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Will the Minister deal with line 5? 1168 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I shall accept the honourable senator's invitation in the cordial fashion in which it was extended. This is a reference to 'a course of secondary education at a level approved by the Minister for the purposes of this section'. The words to be emphasised are 'at a level approved by the Minister'. I. have called attention to the fact that in clause 6 in relation to Commonwealth technical scholarships the phrase is any course approved by the Minister', and that in clause 7 in relation to Commonwealth advanced scholarships the expression is 'any course approved by the Minister'. In each case they are courses approved by the Minister. I thought that my previous reference to them would have been sufficient on that point. As to individual courses proposed by an educational institution, considered by the Department and approved by the Minister, they may be so varied that each individual course should be approved by the Minister and could not possibly be the subject of any meaningful regulation. If I may be permitted to refer now to sub-clause (2.) of clause 5, it will be seen that a secondary school includes 'any educational institution in Australia which, under a direction of the Minister, is to be treated as a secondary school'. In that instance the direction of the Minister is simply to say that he decides that he will regard an educational institution as a secondary school. Schools vary so much in their composition that whereas some persons might not call an institution a secondary school, for the purpose of these scholarships we leave it to the Minister's judgment to identify the school. The point 1 wish to make in this regard is that matters of administration are traditionally left to the approval or direction of the Minister. Those who peruse his annual report to Parliament will, in conjunction with their general knowledge derived from their contact with their own electors, be able to judge whether any error has crept into his administrative functions throughout the year. But the Minister will be subject to subordinate legislation, that is, regulations, in all matters where it is possible in a purposeful sense to prescribe a rule as to the terms of eligibility and the entitlement by way of benefit. Those are the substantial contents of each of the scholarships and I have no doubt that that is the intended content of the regulations. 1 would point out that, subject to what 1 have said as to the terms of the Bill, the content of the regulations will be a matter for the judgment of this chamber when it comes to supervise the regulations. 1169 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Does the Minister intend to refer to clause 1 8 (2.)? 1169 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Yes. I am obliged for the reminder. I mention first that clause 18(1.) simply permits the Minister to revoke an approval, direction or determination that he had made. If he has found that circumstances have changed in relation to a high school between one year and the. next he may give a direction appropriate to the changed circumstances. I am obliged to the honourable senator for referring to sub-clause (2.) because, in doing so, he failed to emphasise that here the word shall' is used. He failed to emphasise also that the words 'public notice' are used. If one looks at the emphasis upon the subclause one will perceive that the Minister shall make such arrangements as he think proper'. 1169 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - That is the term that I want the Minister to deal with. 1169 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The honourable senator will never find me trying to jump over any difficulty. The sub-clause says: The Minister shall make such arrangements as he thinks proper for giving public notice of the giving or making by him under this Act of any approval, direction or determination or of any variation or revocation by him of such an approval direction or determination. So in the regulations would appear public notice of his rules and authority to annul them. In his administrative capacity he shall make such arrangements as he thinks fit to give public notice of these matters, but that is subject to clause 20 which requires him to prepare a report in regard to all those matters and submit it to the people's representatives annually. Further, he shall give public notice and, when, that annual report is reviewed, if anybody in this chamber criticises him and says that he is not exercising his discretion properly in deciding the arrangements he thinks proper or that he has failed in his duty, he is then subject to the impact that Parliament can make on a Minister. Of course, speaking as a Minister, one is always very conscious and respectful of that. May I on the other hand notice the comment that was made by Senator Webster with regard to interference with State functions. 1 regret that my colleague chose to express himself in that language, and I regret that he showed no more enthusiasm for our educational performance than to say that he did not necessarily agree that our performance was to the detriment of State educational activities. I would have wished that he had found it within his soul to say that he enthusiastically supported - not interference - but the supplementary assistance that has been forthcoming from the Federal Government to supply the deficiencies in the State performance notwithstanding the fact that there had been a very great increase in the performance by the States. At the beginning of my speech, I pointed out that over the last 7 years the States had increased their appropriations for education from $225m to $646m. I would have wished that we on the Government side were unanimously of the opinion that there was no doubt as to the contribution from this Government being a detriment to State performance. 1 would have wished that we were enthusiastically of the opinion that this supplementary assistance from the Federal Government had been of great advantage to the Slates. For myself, I would hope that it is fully understood that in the actual administration of the Commonwealth's policy in the education field the Minister and his Department - the Department of Education and Science - are zealous to obtain, by consultation at all times, the co-operation of the. State education officers, departments and Ministers. I believe there are very few educationists in the State sphere who do not look upon the activities of the Federal Government in this respect as helpful and co-operative, and 1 think very few would be found who would not appreciate it. Certainly there would be very few found who would resent what the Commonwealth has done as being interference with State functions. Senator Laucke made a contribution to the debate in a general sense, which 1 appreciate very much. May I say in conclusion that, by reason of its framework the Bill gives great satisfaction to the Senate. When we consider that an appropriation of $29m this year will be regulated and administered under this legislation. 1 think it should give us satisfaction as a parliament that we have a framework by means of which, either in the Act or the regulations, the substantive provisions of these scholarships will appear for all interested to read. I submit that we shouldtake great satisfaction from the knowledge that the appropriation for scholarships in the Federal sphere in the last 7 years has increased from $6m to $29m. I submit also that we should take great satisfaction from the knowledge that the Government has performed in this way on an increasing scale so as to expand its appropriations up to date and from the knowledge that it has been a pioneer in the various fields in the world of education. Particularly do I refer to the aid that it has given to independent schools. The particular satisfaction that we get is from the knowledge that the Government is quite conscious of the fact that the whole job has not yet been done and that it is eager to make advances in the future comparable with its past performances. I ask the Senate to accept the Bill. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee Clauses 1 to 10 - by leave - taken together. 1170 K6R Victoria 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I want to draw the Committee's attention only to the fact that there are in these clauses some very significant improvements on the position that obtained in the 1967 Bill. In each of clauses 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, scholarships are granted subject to and in accordance with regulations. I make the point, which should go on the record of the Senate, since the Minister for Works (Senator' Wright) is at such pains to place matters on record, that the protections provided were completely omitted from the 1967 legislation and that they are included in this legislation because the Senate insisted upon them going in. Otherwise, it would not have been prepared to pass the Bill. The other matter to which I wanted to refer in dealing with these clauses is the expression in clauses 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 that scholarships 'may be granted' to persons, and so on. When senators seek the information, 1 think they are entitled to know to whom and in what categories these scholarships are granted. I am very concerned about an answer that I received from the Minister for Education and Science (Mr Malcolm Fraser), through the Minister representing him in this chamber telling me deliberately that information which I sought was not available, without any promise of its being made available within a reasonable time and without any promise to get it. I had sought information related to the number of awards made to students attending each State secondary school and the name and location of each school and the same particulars with regard to non-government schools. I also wanted information as to how many open entrance university scholarships, secondary school scholarships and scholarships to attend colleges of advanced education had been awarded, together with particulars as to the number of students from each school who were awarded the scholarships. All I received was a simple statement that the Minister is looking into the question as to whether it might be possible to compile this information in future years. I tell the Minister that I am just not satisfied with that. I do not regard it as proper to fob off in this way requests for information. If there is one thing we are entitled to know it is to whom these scholarships are going. We are also entitled to know what the pattern of distribution is between schools in the various areas and between government and non-government schools. 1 do not feel at all happy about just agreeing, to these clauses without having some assurance that something will be done to provide us with this information. 1171 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - It is really encouraging to find a little spirit being injected into the debate at this stage by Senator Cohen. As to the question of regulations, 1. have already dealt with that in my reply to the second reading debate. The honourable senator rather menacingly shook a piece of paper across the table and said: lt is not good enough. 1 will not accept that'. I should like the Senate to know that the honourable senator put before us three questions. One was in relation to advanced education scholarships, one was in relation to secondary education scholarships and one was in relation to open entrance university scholarships. He wanted to know how many of these scholarships were given to Students attending each State secondary school, the name and the location of such school, how many awards were granted to students attending each non-government school and the name and location of that school. There is no requirement in the qualifications for the award of any of these scholarships that a scholar should come from a particular kind of school. A scholar simply submits to an examination. His results are examined and then, according to his qualifications, irrespective of the school, he is given, an award. Not only is it not useful for the Department of Education and Science to keep a record of the performance of each school but when lists are published - as, of course, all scholarship awards are published - the schools object to that form of publication. Of course, such objection would not govern us but we do have regard to it. Having regard to the unjustified criticism that often is levelled in this place at the Government by the Opposition about delays in answering questions, I have given my Department instructions that we are to have regard to the volume of statistics we can collate within a reasonable time. If we have not got the i record I prefer to' teH , Senator Cohen, as 1 did, that the information is not -available. I thought it would be courteous to go on and say that the Minister, however, is looking into the question of whether it might be possible to compile this information in future years. 1 have pointed to its irrelevance. I have pointed out that the schools object to that form of publication for the purpose of general information but that, notwithstanding, we are considering the usefulness of getting figures .in this form. I therefore wish quite firmly to refute the suggestion that this is not. good enough. I submit it is entirely proper and 1 also submit that to propriety the answer adds courtesy. 1171 JZU New South Wales 0 0 ORMONDE, James Senator ORMONDE - 1 wish to direct attention to the need for a public examination . of the chaos in public, thinking on the subject of education. I recently attended a public meeting at Eastwood at which about 3,000 people stood up the politicians of the district over this matter of education. 1 was greatly impressed by the confusion on this subject. The meeting was called to hear addresses by Federal politicians, including the Commonwealth Attorney-General (Mr Bowen). However, those in attendance developed an attitude of open hostility to Mr Jago, the man who represented the Premier,' Mr Askin. I believe the p'eople were confused by federal propaganda on Federal aid for,' control of and interest in education. All they were worrying about was the State Minister, who was really responsible. Mr Jago was under criticism for three-quarters of the time. The person under fire was not Mr Whitlam, not the Federal member and not the Attorney-General,- because in the public mind education is a State matter. Senator Webster said much the same thing. There is great confusion over education. Clearly, the Minister believes that everything in the education garden is lovely. At the Commonwealth level we seem, to know where we are going in this field but the public does not. The Opposition is supporting this Bill but I think it would be in the interests of education if some sort of nonpolitical investigation were made into education generally in Australia, particularly during this period of change when State influence is weakening and Federal influence is strengthening. I ask the Minister for his view of this aspect. Does he not think that such a non-political investigation would be useful? Everybody involved in education would then know where they are going, including the people who get the advantages that (he Government might hand out and the States who receive payments from the Commonwealth. 1172 KMX Victoria 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - 1 desire to raise certain matters arising out of clauses 4 to 8. I do so because I share the view expressed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Senator Cohen), both in his speech in the second reading debate and again more shortly today, with regard to the manner in which this Bill is to be operated, or the manner in which procedures provided by it are to be operated, in contrast with what was proposed some time ago. 1 also share the view expressed by the Minister for Works (Senator Wright) that the Senate should be ever vigilant. 1 recognise that the provisions to which I refer lay down a broad scheme in which the principle is set out and that much is to be left to the regulations or to administrative direction. I understand that the difference between this and the previous measure is that vastly more is to be left to regulations. I would be interested to know what the Minister for Works says is the full purport of the definition of full time student. On my reading of that definition a full time student is not a person who happens to be undergoing a course of study at a school, a university, a college of advanced education or a technical college but is simply a person included in a class definable by the Minister for Education and Science (Mr Malcolm Fraser). 1 would like the Minister to indicate whether my construction is correct and whether, therefore, the Minister for Education and Science has the power to determine who is or is not a student irrespective of whether he is studying at a university, a college or a school. If the Minister has this power, what reason is there for denying a scholarship to a person who goes to a school, a university or institution in the expectation that he Will be eligible for a scholarship? That person may find that for some reason, either now or in the future, the particular course of study in which he is interested is, by ministerial direction, excluded from the benefits of scholarships. I appreciate that it will be the intention of the Minister to enlarge the field of scholarships, so far as he is able, but pursuing the vigilance which the Minister for Works exhorted us to observe, it seems appropriate to consider the language of the Bill with a view to determining whether that is an interpretation that is open to us. The other aspect to which I wish to refer relates to clauses 5, 6, 7 and 8, which relate to secondary schools, technical colleges, advanced education institutions and universities and which provide that scholarships shall be granted by the Minister to persons who are undertaking or propose to undertake, courses as full time students. The crucial point is that the scholarships may by granted by the Minister - and I use the expression that is used in those clauses - subject to and in accordance with the regulations. There appear to me to be two interpretations open. I think that the correct one is that there must Be regulations and that any scholarship awarded must be subject to the regulations, but equally it may be arguable that if there are no regulations at all there is nothing to which the grant may be subject and the grant takes effect without being subject to anything whatever. I would be grateful tt the Minister would indicate - as 1 expect and hope he will - that the former of the two alternatives I put forward is the true position. I would also be grateful if he would elaborate, in the terms of these clauses, on his statement in the course pf his second reading speech that regulations will be made to deal with certain matters - for example, conditions of eligibility and methods of selection. I think it is appropriate in the Committee stage to scrutinise closely the regulations to be made within the framework of the Act, and the operations of those regulations as envisaged by the Act, and to ensure that the regulations do not give too wide a power of discretion and that the field of operation of the regulations is specifically limited. I know that the Scholarships Regulations under the existing Education Act contain one clause and one clause alone, under which the whole scholarships scherzo seems to have operated, in terms of the power to grant scholarships. It is to elicit further information as to what the regulations are designed to cover that I ask these questions, and in pursuit, as 1 said, of the vigilance which the Minister encourages. 1173 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - 1 would suggest that Senator Ormonde's observations were sufficiently referred to in my earlier reply and that I could not with advantage in the Committee stage elaborate any further on his views on the general question to which he referred. The first of Senator Greenwood's contributions related to clause 4 and the definition of a full time student. The reason why it is thought that the Minister should specify the students to whom the term 'full time' can be applied is because of the great variety of circumstance^ applicable to any student. For instance, on.student may be doing a particular toUrs. and another student may be doing only 90% of that course and have some job after 5 o'clock. The question whether a student is a full time student or not may have a different meaning according to whether the scholarship is -i technical one or a university one. A university student may have ancillary employment. Some people may say that he is not << full time student. All those circumstances. I submit, are properly to be determined in a case of doubt by the Minister and should be under his general supervision. The more important question to which my colleague, Senator Greenwood, referred wa: the expression in each of clauses 5, 6, 7. 8 and 9 that scholarships may be awarded subject to and in accordance with the regulations. I want to be as completely unequivocal as it is possible to be. My opinion is that the only possible interpretation of the language of the clauses is the first interpretation suggested by the honourable senator: that is, that unless there are regulations scholarships cannot be awarded and that any scholarships that are awarded must be subject to the conditions provided in those regulations. The kinds of matters that it is expected that the regulations will refer to are, firstly, the question of eligibility, which would include such things as age limits, residential qualifications, bonded students, previous study and educational qualifications; and, secondly, the question of selection. As far as practicable the regulations will cover selected methods for various scholarship schemes and for different classes of scholarships within each scheme - for example, open entrance, later year awards and so on. I may add that the regulations will also provide benefits to which successful students will be entitled - monetary or any other benefits that may accrue. 1 think that all those conditions of scholarships will be provided for. In considering eligibility it follows, in my view, that the regulations will always hu expected to provide for cases in which scholarships may be forfeited or discontinued. ' lt is expected that because of different circumstances of individuals some discretion will be permitted by Parliament to reside in the Minister so that he can adjust iniquities that might otherwise occur. These might arise in cases df sickness or perhaps in the case of a student who might present grounds considered just outside the limit of reasonable or excusable grounds. I hope that statement agrees with the viewpoint of Senator Greenwood whose outlook on this matter is one for which. I have great respect. Senator COHEN (Victoria) [4.221-1 think the second point raised by Senator Greenwood, which has just been discussed by the Minister, is a very important one. Without wanting to be overcritical of the Minister, I do not think we should leave the matter where he has left it. I appreciate and accept that the Minister has frankly and honestly expounded his own view of the meaning of these expressions. I go on record as saving that I agree with the view that scholarships cannot be awarded unless there are regulations. Equally there is another view which, as Senator Greenwood has said, may be open. With respect to the Minister, I think we need more than his assurance that what he understands the position to be, as a lawyer and . as the responsible Minister in this place giving the Senate his view of what interpretation should be placed upon the expression, is the position. I think we are entitled to expect something further. I think we are entitled to expect a categorical assurance that there will be regulations covering these matters. I think he should give a firm indication of the precise matters that the regulations will cover. The Minister - and I accept that this was said with complete candour by him - speculated or foreshadowed what might be the subject of regulations or what he, Senator Greenwood, myself and, I would imagine, all honourable senators who have taken part in this debate or in the debate on the earlier legislation, would expect to be the subject of regulations. I would not be disposed to let it rest without an indication from the Minister that this is the Government's intention. 1174 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - It is. 1174 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - If it is. then it is different from what the Minister has said already as an indication of his own construction of the clause which happens to accord with one of the views that Senator Greenwood put. 1174 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - If I put a View in this House I would not' expect the Committee to accept from the Government any other view. ' . 1174 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I cast no reflection on the Minister in accepting this but I think there is a distinction between what he, as the Minister representing the Minister for Education and Science, puts forward as his view of what would be regarded as things properly to be included in the regulations, and what we can act upon, because if there were the slightest doubt about any matter of construction at this stage 1 think that the Senate in Committee would want to deal with it. 1174 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I thought that the honourable senator would take the explanation that I, as the responsible Minister in charge of the legislation, put forward as an explicit and definite statement of the view that would be adopted by the Government. Neither the Government nor i would expect the Senate to accept any other view. That is my function as the Minister in this chamber. 1174 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - And there will be regulations covering these matters? 1174 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - It is that after this legislation is passed no scholarships can bc awarded lawfully except in accordance with the regulations which, ex hypothesi, must be brought into existence. Clauses agreed to. Clauses 11 to 14 - by leave - taken together. 1174 K6R Victoria 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I wish to raise two matters. 1 think 1 referred to them both in my speech in the second reading debate when I indicated that I would be happy to accept the Minister's assurance and that we would spell it out at the Committee stage. So far as clauses 11 and 12 are concerned - 1 am interested in the matter because of the earlier debate we had - 1 wanted it to be quite clear that the word 'prescribed' in those clauses meant prescribed by the regulations. If that is the Minister's view I will accept it and will not pursue the matter further. 1174 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - That is the Government's view of the Bill. 1174 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - in relation to the second matter 1 merely seek some elucidation of a difference in language that exists between clauses 11 and 12 where the word prescribed' is used, and clauses 13 and 14 where the expression 'determined in accordance with the regulations' is used. I am interested to know whether there is any significance in the different language that is used. 1174 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The difference in language results from the fact that in relation to secondary and technical scholarships the rate is fixed. In the other cases the living allowance is variable according to a means test. 1174 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator Cohen - I am satisfied with that. 1174 KB9 Western Australia 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - I wish to refer to the prescribed amount. Although this Bill does not actually cover the amount I have been asked by some people in my State, particularly in the electorate of Forrest - 1 am referring now specifically to the Bridgetown area - to raise this matter. They find considerable difficulty in sending their children on Commonwealth scholarships to Perth because of the costs involved. The costs are covered, or supposed to be covered, by clause 1 1 (c) which prescribes a living allowance. The position in the Bridgetown area - I should like this to be noted when the prescribed rate is being determined at various times - is that the people have to send their children to a high school outside the area. The nearest high school is at Manjimup but there is no way of getting there. So the children have to be sent to Perth. The costs involved have been worked out very carefully by farmers in the area. They are quite prepared to pay what it would cost them normally to keep their children at home and send them to the local secondary school if there were a local secondary school. The amount granted under the scholarship scheme to successful students is only about two-thirds of the additional amount required to meet their expenses. 1 know that the Bill does not lay down any allowance but f have been asked to bring this matter forward so that the Government might keep it in mind when consideration is being given to the prescribed amount for living allowance. 1175 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I will see that the matter is considered by the Minister for Education and Science. Clauses agreed to. Clause 15 (Payment of benefits under scholarships). 1175 K6R Victoria 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - 1 am concerned to ensure that we exercise the vigilance to which Senator Greenwood referred over the precise meaning of the language. 1175 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - The Minister invited the comment. 1175 K6R 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - There is no criticism of the Minister in this. He accepted your view. But I think you were the one who first used the word 'vigilance'. The clause reads: Benefits under a scholarship shall be paid at such times, in such manner and to such person, or to a person included in such class of persons, as the Minister determines. Left on its own and without the context of the Bill one would be very fearful that this was reintroducing what we sought to exclude in our battles on the 1967 legislation. That was the granting of unfettered discretion, recognising the need for discretion in certain cases. I ask the Minister whether this is to be understood as meaning as the Minister determines in accordance with the regulations'. If it is, why should we not have that language in the clause? 1175 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - If the honourable senator turns to clause 10 he will see that benefits there are indicated to be: . financial assistance to, or for the benefit qf, the holder of the scholarship. Clause 15 simply says that the Minister, like a shop manager, will say: 'I will pay my bills fortnightly or 3-monthly'. The scholar may wish the school to bc paid the scholarship benefit. These are purely detailed administrative matters such as occur in any office. Of course the Minister will be authorised to pay only such benefits as are provided by the regulations. Clause agreed to. Remainder of Bill - by leave- taken as a whole. 1175 K6R Victoria 0 0 COHEN, Samuel Senator COHEN - I rise to place on record the fact that clause 20 is in the Bill only because in 1967 the Opposition insisted that a clause be included requiring the Minister to report annually on the operation of the -legislation. When introducing the previous legislation the then Minister for Education and Science - now the Prime Minister (Mr Gorton) - referred to his intention to make an annual statement. The Opposition, supported by a number of honourable senators opposite, including the Minister for Works (Senator Wright), who is in charge of this legislation, insisted that this provision should be included in the legislation. I. pay tribute to the Minister for Works for his contribution to the debate on that occasion. The then Minister for Education and Science introduced his own amendment to put the matter right. That is why this clause is included in the Bill. Senator GREENWOOD (Victoria) [4.36J - 1 desire to raise matters concerning clauses 18 and 19. 1 notice that clause 18(1.) provides: An approval, direction or determination of tile Minister under this Act may be varied or revoked by the Minister. There is a wide range of matters upon which ministerial approvals, directions and determinations may be given. I appreciate that the Parliamentary Draftsman has included a provision for publicity to be given to what the Minister has done. I think this is always desirable in cases of this nature. But curious phraseology has been used. Clause 18 (2.) states: The Minister shall make such arrangements as he thinks proper for giving public notice of the giving or making by him under this Act of any approval, direction or determination or of any variation or revocation by him of such an approval, direction or determination. One might have supposed that there would be provision whereby such a notification would be included in the Commonwealth Gazette' if in no other place, or in the annual report required under clause 20. I ask the Minister: What is proposed and what is intended as the type of publicity the Minister will give under clause 18(2.)? It can be publicity which will achieve the purpose of making available information to anybody who is prepared to make a modicum of inquiry or it can be the simple sort of publicity which constitutes compliance with the legislation but in fact gives no information to anybody at all because it is too difficult to search out. The second point I wish to raise relates to clause 19, which provides for a power of delegation. That power is in the usual form used by the Parliamentary Draftsman. Clause 19 (1.) states: The Minister may, by instrument in writing, delegate to a person- 1 take no objection to the use of the words instrument in writing', but I would like to know what persons the Minister has in mind as persons to whom this power shall be delegated. I should imagine they are persons within the Department of Education and Science who can exercise this power, but one would think that propriety would indicate that delegation should be limited to officers of the Department. Is it intended that determinations relating to the granting of any of these scholarships, whether under the Act or the regulations, will be made by people outside the Department? I would think that it it is intended that persons envisaged under clause 19 shall include persons who are not officers of the Depart ment this would be a matter to attract tha concern of the Senate. 1176 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The intention is that the delegation shall, in general, be to officers of the Department of Education and Science. I have only one reservation to make in answer to Senator Greenwood's question. We know that several committees of an advisory nature have been set up under the education scheme. Having regard to what has been said about the substitution of a committee for the Scholarship Board, it may be that a committee of that sort would be a delegate in some respects, but I would think not. In any case. If such a step were to be made it would be a matter fit to be mentioned in the annual report. Senator Greenwood also referred to the question of the Minister making such arrangements as he . thinks proper for giving public notice of certain things. Nobody would suggest that the fact that, say, Jim Smith is a full time student should be notified in the Commonwealth Gazette' or in the annual report unless there is some suggestion of abuse. However there will be many cases in which it will be necessary to give public notice of the fact that a certain school is a secondary school. I suggest that those are the sorts of things that make it proper for the Minister to make such arrangements as he thinks fit to give public notice of a direction. I believe that that degree of discretion should be left to the Minister. Remainder of Bill agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. 1176 Bill (on motion by Senator Wright) read a third time. Senate adjourned at 4.42 p.m. till Tuesday, 13 May at 3 p.m.