1970-10-19 27 2 2 SENATE 1243 0 1970-10-19 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Bull) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. 1243 miscellaneous 1243 1243 ISW TASMANIA 0 0 WRIEDT, Ken Senator WRIEDT - I present From 87 citizens of the State of Tasmania the following petition: To the Honourable the President and members ot the Senate in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned citizens of Tasmania respectfully showeth: Thai due to the higher living cost, persons on social service pensions are finding it extremely difficult to live in even the most frugal way. We therefore call upon the Commonwealth Government to increase the base pension rate to 30 per cent of the average weekly male earnings for 78 States, as ascertained by the Commonwealth Statistician, plus supplementary assistance and allowances in accordance with ACTU policy and adopted as the policy of the Australian Commonwealth Pensioners' Federation, and by doing so give a reasonably moderate pension. Your petitioners most humbly pray that the Senate and the House of Representatives in Parliament assembled will take immediate steps to bring about the wishes expressed in our petition so that our citizens receiving the social services pensions may five their lives in dignity. And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray. Petition received and read. 1243 Questions 1243 1243 JUH TASMANIA 0 0 DEVITT, Donald Senator DEVITT - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Attorney-General. By way of preface I mention the fact that approximately 2 months ago 1 raised with the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport a question concerning the possibility of a conflict between section 18 (1.) of the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission Act and the provisions of section 92 of the Constitution. In due course I received a reply from the Minister for Shipping and Transport indicating that, because of its implications, the question had been referred to the Attorney-General's Department. Will the Minister ascertain the course of the inquiries into this matter and find out whether there is any possibility of an early reply to my question? 1243 KBW TASMANIA LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - 1 shall be pleased to do as the honourable senator requests. 1243 Questions 1243 1243 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Health. What form of control is exercised over local and overseas manufactured sun glasses in relation to the standard of eye protection? Did the States act in conjunction with the Commonwealth to enforce standards which are based on the filtering properties of such glasses as a result of a complaint J lodged last year concerning the rejection by the armed forces of the United States of America >( Australian made sun glasses because of their inferior quality? What action will be taken in regard to the new style sun glasses which are to be imported from France by Mr Bonnetau and which, in the main, are based more on mod design than effective filtering? 1243 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I recall the interest which Senator Mulvihill expressed in this matter previously. [ have some information for him concerning the points he has raised today. First of all. he asked what form of control there was of standards for the production of sun glasses, both locally and overseas. The answer I have in relation to that question is none - (here is no form of control. The answer to his second question is that no standards exist in respect of sun glasses for general public wear. A standard for tinted ophthalmic lenses has been in preparation by the Standards Association of Australia since 1968. It is expected to be completed in the next few months. The honourable senator asked what action will be taken in respect of the new style of sun glasses to be imported from France by Mr Bonnetau. The answer is none. The answer to the fourth question regarding the action taken to see that effective filtering is done is that the degree of filtering required in sun glasses can vary with the needs of the wearer. Lightly tinted glasses used as fashion accessories should be only regarded as such. As further reassurance, I inform the honourable senator that the Ophthalmological Society of Australia advised in 1968 that acute effects from ultra violet or infra-red light due to inefficient filtering would present a clinical problem only under exceptional circumstances. 1244 Questions 1244 1244 KAS VICTORIA 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER -I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate whether it is a fact that professional engineers employed in the Commonwealth Public Service are paid at rates substantially lower than those paid by most State instrumentalities? Did professional engineers suspend industrial action pending salary negotiations between the Commonwealth Public Service Board and representatives of the professional engineers? As a year has passed since those negotiations commenced will the Minister seek some comment from the Commonwealth Public Service Board regarding the current situation? Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONYes, I will seek some information from the Commonwealth Public Service Board through the Prime Minister's Department as to the current situation. 1 am aware, as the honourable senator indicates, that negotiations have been conducted by the professional engineers in the Commonwealth Service with the Public Service Board about their emoluments. I will obtain the facts and make them available as soon as I can to the honourable senator. 1244 Questions 1244 1244 JZB NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Health. In view of the great concern of all Australians at the appalling death and accident rate on the Australian roads will the Department of Health urgently investigate with Professor Haberland who is here in Australia from the University of Bonn - an acknowledged expert on many matters including accident shock - the advantages of use in Australia of the West German accident ambulance unit which is stated to be a mobile operating theatre? lt is claimed that the West German scheme which gets urgent medical care to a road accident shortly after it occurs has halved the death rate in that country. 1244 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - We all join with Senator Fitzgerald in being disturbed at the high death and injury rate on the roads in Australia. I have noted with interest the points he has raised. I have seen them mentioned in the Press. I shall certainly take the matter up with the Minister for Health and obtain what information I can for the honourable senator 1244 Questions 1244 1244 K3O SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 BUTTFIELD, Nancy Senator BUTTFIELD - Could the Minister representing the Minister for Customs and Excise inform the Senate whether the large quantity of amphetamines which were recovered last weekend account for all those which were stolen from a drug manufacturing company some weeks ago? If not could he indicate what quantity still has to be recovered? 1244 JQR NEW SOUTH WALES LP Minister for Civil Aviation 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I am sure the honourable senator will appreciate that this is information which is not in my hands at the moment. A fair amount of security is involved in these considerations.I shall have to ask the responsible Minister what the position is. I did answer a question earlier about the position but did not give any information as to the quantity which had been recovered. 1 will have to find out that information for the honourable senator. T will obtain it as soon as I can. 1244 Questions 1244 1244 K1Y SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - My question is directed to the Minister for Supply in that capacity and as the Minister representing the Minister for Defence. Did the Government in setting arrangements for the lease of 24 Phantom aircraft seek specifically to obtain for the Australian aircraft industry some offset orders? As the future of the F1 1 1 order is still in doubt, has the Government clearly indicated to the United States of America that in the event of some other aircraft being ordered Australia expects to share in co-production rights? 1244 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The terms and conditions under which Australia took the Phantom fighters were set out in a document presented by the Minister for Defence on his return from the United States of America after carrying out his negotiations. As we all know, the negotiations predicated situations that may or may not occur in relation to the F1ll aircraft. Therefore I would have some reservations about giving categorical answers at question time as to whether offset orders came into that consideration. I will get a statement tram the Minister for Defence and we will have a look at il. Speaking at question time in response to a question without notice, all I can say is that I am of the view that the considerations in that transaction would be, first of all, in relation to a possible short term problem and then subsequently to a long term problem. Offset orders may have been a fair way back in the considerations. I would need to obtain the complete statement of the Minister for Defence to ascertain this. If Senator Bishop does not have it I will certainly have it made available to him. If he wishes to ask me a subsequent question. I know he will do so. 1245 Questions 1245 1245 K69 WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 SIM, John Senator SIM - I direct my question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. I refer to a report from London by a Mr Bernard Colling that the Rhodesian economy is enjoying a boom and that trading nations from Japan to Russia are leaping in to enjoy the fruits of the market. Will the Minister have examined reports that Russia, Red China and other Iron Curtain countries such as Czechoslovakia are trading freely with Rhodesia in a wide range of goods? If the reports are true, will the Government make a statement reporting on the situation? 1245 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The honourable senator's question is rather interesting in the light of some of the questions that have been asked and the debates which have taken place in this chamber in the past. Where Australia has traded with Rhodesia it has done so strictly in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, which makes provision for it. This is quite an interesting question; it suggests that Russia, Communist China and other countries also are trading with Rhodesia. 1 think it would be excellent and very worthwhile for the Senate to note the facts. I will set about getting the facts as to the order of trading tha' is really going on with these other countries. I am sure they will be of great interest to honourable senators on the Opposition side who have been critical of our trade with Rhodesia to 'he past. 1245 Questions 1245 1245 KUS QUEENSLAND 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - [ ask a question of the Minister representing the Postmaster-General. Does the Postmaster-General's Department contemplate in the immediate future downgrading from official to non-official status the post offices at Yandina, Eumundi, Landsborough, Palmwoods, Woodford, Yarraman and Woombye? If it is the Department's intention to implement such a retrograde proposal and so apply a further restriction of employment in country areas, will it give serious consideration to reviewing the decision and thus ensuring better post office facilities for people residing in the aforementioned areas? 1245 K28 0 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I will have to get this information for the honourable senator from the Postmaster-General. I shall get it as soon as possible and inform the honourable senator. 1245 Questions 1245 1245 K6F SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - My question is directed to the Minister for Air. What is the approximate value of the spare parts held by Australia for the Phantom aircraft? What is the approximate value of the spare parts held by Australia for the Fill aircraft? 1245 JXR WESTERN AUSTRALIA CP Minister for Air 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - This changes from time to time and I think that I could best get the information for the honourable senator by his putting his question on notice. 1245 Questions 1245 1245 KTA NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland - Has the Minister for Civil Aviation seen a statement attributed to the Mayor of the Municipality of Rockdale to the effect that the New South Wales State Planning Authority is a willing party to an attempt by the Department of Civil Aviation to force communities near Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport into silence over the increasing problem of aircraft noise nuisance? Is it correct that the Department, in its report, forecasts an intent to zone a large part of Rockdale, including the shopping centre, for industry and open land, and to restrict nearly all of the remainder of the municipality to single unit cottages? Has the Minister seen also a statement attributed to the Chairman of the State Planning Authority to the effect that the Authority feels that prospective buyers of property in the noise affected areas should be notified of existing and likely noise levels? Will the Minister, therefore, take into his confidence the members of the public who are vitally interested in this matter, and release to the public full details of his Department's report so that home owners in the areas injuriously affected will know what is in store for them in the years ahead in the matter of aircraft noise nuisance? 1246 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I have not seen either of the reports referred to but 1 shall look at them to see what they have to say. lt would be impossible to remember all of the points raised by the honourable senator although I appreciate very much his genuine concern. As to taking into my confidence members of the public, I think I should state that some long time ago we formed, in the Department of Civil Aviation, in every capital city and in certain other cities as well, noise abatement committees comprising representatives of the Department of Civil Aviation, State planning authorities, public works departments, transport departments, municipalities around airports and interested public bodies. To those committees we gave all of the information that we currently had. We continue to update this information as it becomes more readily available and, perhaps, more precise. To that extent we have tried to take into our confidence members of the public. Beyond that 1 would not want to go at present except to acknowledge the honourable senator's interest and to try to see that he gets as much information as he can get to help him to make a judgment on this matter and, in turn, to help his electors. 1246 Questions 1246 1246 KQN SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 LAUCKE, Condor Senator LAUCKE - I seek clarification from the Minister representing the Treasurer in respect of financial assistance to the States for drought relief. Is it so, as was reported in the Adelaide 'Advertiser' recently, that no State is eligible for assistance until it has expended Si. 5m of its own resources on drought relief in that State? Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONI recall that Senator Laucke asked me a question on this matter last week. I replied then that the normal procedure in relation to drought relief was not so much a matter for the Treasurer as a matter on the Premier to Prime Minister level in the first instance. There was reference to the fact that South Australia was required to find $1.5m as a preliminary to assistance being given by the Commonwealth. However, it would be wrong to assume, as I understand certain of the media have assumed, that the $1.5m is the start line for every State. For example, New South Wales was required to find $4m before the Commonwealth considered that it should intervene following a calamity which went beyond the responsibility or financial capacity of the State. The SI. 5m was regarded as being within the capacity of South Australia. It was considered - this is comparable, is it not? - that $4m was within the area which New South Wales could and should be able to provide to meet the situation. So if, as I understand the Press, it is suggesting that a blanket $l.5m is the starting line, it is quite wrong. The starting line would depend on the State; it would depend on the circumstances of the Stale, its geographical position and its economic capacity. In the case of New South Wales, the figure was not Si. 5m; it was $4m. 1246 Questions 1246 1246 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Treasurer. He will know that substantial assistance is given by the Commonwealth Government to genuine primary producers by the Reserve Bank's direction to private trading banks that the current overdraft lending rate to primary producers is to be substantially less than that charged in other areas of business in Australia, and that this is of particular significance and help to primary producers. Does he recall my suggestion that in instances private banks had not lowered the interest rate charged to primary producers following the recent application of the general bank rate increase? Is this not a matter of greater concern to the Federal Government than to suggest that the administration and application of interest rates must be a matter for the private trading banks, as the Minister did in the answer that he gave me originally. Will he request that the Department of the Treasury make inquiries into whether the private trading banks have complied with the tenor of the Reserve Bank's direction? 1247 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - lt is true, as the honourable senator indicates, that there is provision for a reduction in the interest rate for assistance to primary industry. It is equally true that when there was a variation in interest rates it was seen to that that reduction was not dissipated; in fact, the reduction was preserved, as I understand the position. What Senator Webster is suggesting to us now is that there are instances in which trading banks have not, in fact, followed the spirit of that proposal. If he had some examples which he could provide to me and which I could relay to the Treasurer, I would be happy to do so. In any event, I will accept the question that he puts and have it directed to the Treasurer for him to make a comment on the generality of the problem the honourable senator has raised. 1247 Questions 1247 1247 JYA TASMANIA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - -Has the Leader of the Government in the Senate seen a report in the 'Australian Financial Review' of today's date, drawing attention to the presence of a Canadian wheat selling mission in Peking and referring to the absence of representatives of the Australian Wheat Board? Will the Government give diplomatic assistance to the Australian Wheat Board so that the 1969 contract signed with China and due to expire at the end of this month in respect of 82 million bushels of wheat can be renewed and, if possible, expanded? Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONft is a fact that sales of wheat to mainland China are negotiated through the Australian Wheat Board. I would have thought it axiomatic that, in any negotiations agents of Australia have, they receive, as they are entitled to receive, all the assistance - be it diplomatic, trade mission or consular - they need in the carrying out of their responsibilities. I know of no circumstances where the Australian Wheat Board has failed to receive assistance in the past. I have grave doubts as to whether it is likely to fail to receive assistance in the future. But if the honourable senator believes that some added assistance can be given I shall pass his question to the Minister for Trade and Industry. I have no doubt of the answer that will be provided, but nevertheless I shall direct the question to the Minister. 1247 Questions 1247 1247 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I address a question to the Minister for Civil Aviation. la the event of an attempted hi-jacking of a Qantas Airways Ltd airliner in which the hi-jackers were captured, would the Government, rightly, prosecute the offenders irrespective of their nationality or would it apply selective justice as was done recently by the Turkish Government in a case involving a Russian aircraft? Does the Minister think that the action of the Turkish Government will jeopardise efforts to get a world-wide code against hi-jacking? 1247 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I think it is not a very useful exercise to canvass possibilities of Qantas airliners being hi-jacked. This possibility is of grave concern and would have grave consequence. The Australian Government has the maximum legal protection at present against hi-jackers. It supports the recent initiatives that are taking place in Holland with a view to increasing this protection. At present protection is afforded under international Acts. Honourable senators may be assured that the Australian Government will, without any doubt, be as rigorous as it can be in taking action to safeguard the rights of its air carrier and the Australian people. 1247 Questions 1247 1247 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - 1 ask the Minister representing the Treasurer a question which follows from the answer which he gave to Senator Laucke. As the relief needed for drought purposes in South Australia will not exceed $1.5m, does the Minister's reply mean that South Australia will receive no help from the Commonwealth to relieve the serious loss in some areas resulting from drought? 1247 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - So that I may obtain an answer with precision on this point I think it would be better if this question were to go on notice. In answering the previous question I dealt with misconceptions in relation to the drought relief scheme. The situation referred to by the honourable senator is a matter in respect of which I should obtain an answer from the Treasurer. I shall probably be able to supply an answer tomorrow. 1248 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 1248 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - PerhapsI should answer this question and say that whenever we close this sessional period - I should hope that it will be in sufficient time to enable us to go out into the electorate and to put our views and our cases - an effort will be made to get as many answers as is humanly possible to questions appearing on the notice paper. As has been said in this place before, where questions are addressed to Ministers in another place it is not entirely in the hands of Ministers here to supply an answer. However, as Leader of the Government in the Senate I have a responsibility. Already I have sent out signals drawing attention to questions which may be outstanding in the hope of getting as many answers as possible. In those cases where answers are not available before we rise I would hope that some of them will come through even after we rise. 1248 Questions 1248 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The honourable senator's question relates to a broad economic issue, but he has nar rowed it down to one particular area. In answering questions from the honourable senator and other honourable senators before todayI have pointed out that the movement of the interest rate is an economic instrument. The Government exercised that economic instrument in relation to the trends of the economy which were prevalent at the time that it acted. I also recall that at the time I answered questions on this matter I pointed out that movement of the interest rate is not something that has been dreamed up or cooked up in Australia. It is a recognised economic instrument all over the world. 1248 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - On the contrary. In some instances it can be easily demonstrated to have saved the economy. A notable example occurred in the United Kingdom. Senator Murphy has picked out the application of the exercise to one particular industry in isolation, and has sought to use it as an argument against the basic concept. Quite frankly, it is not a valid argument. I think the Minister for Housing in the last few weeks has fully and effectively answered such arguments. She has demonstrated that whilst at certain stages commencements in the housing field have slowed down - if honourable senators opposite want the Minister to give the details again, I am sure she will do so - there has been again quite a significant movement in the number of commencements in the housing industry. I reject the suggestion of Senator Murphy that it is possible to take something which covers the whole Australian economy and is introduced for the benefit of the whole Australian community, then choose from it one particular item and say, because that item does not respond as quickly as others, that the application of the instrument was wrong. It is a fallacious argument. 1248 miscellaneous 1249 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - Senator Murphy in this question has perpetuated the fallacy that was contained in his previous question. Apparently he thinks that he and I should conduct a debate on this subject at question time, lt pays a poor compliment to other honourable senators who wish to ask questions. The simple fact is that I demonstrated what happened, and not by giving an isolated instance such as he gave when he referred to the Radcliffe report. I invite the honourable senator to study the history of previous United Kingdom Governments. In any free country in the world he can find a demonstration of how the interest rate has been operated and varied in accordance with the economic problems affecting the whole nation at the time. That is the argument 1 put, not an argument based on a single instance such as the -honourable senator used when he mentioned the Radcliffe report. 1249 Questions 1249 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - There is no doubt in my mind, and probably there is no doubt in the minds of all honourable senators on this side of the chamber, of the Australian Democratic Labor Party, and perhaps to a degree of honourable senators opposite, that Australia will not be intimidated by any nation in the world. Australia reserves the right to make its own judgments on the merits as it sees them and in accordance with its responsibility to the electors. It will not be intimidated by anybody or by any nation in relation to trade or any other matter. Having said that, I agree completely with the view of Senator McManus that the history of Red China's purchases of wheat, not only from Australia but from other countries, shows that that country purchases where it is most convenient and satisfactory for it to trade without regard to ideologies. Red China buys our wheat because it wants it and because it is of the quality required. It pays the price that we ask or which we negotiate. There is no risk about that. Therefore any suggestion, implied or otherwise, at question time or any other time, that there is some risk to our wheat sales to Red China because of the diplomatic situation is something which I cannot accept. I completely believe the point of view expressed by Senator McManus. 1249 Questions 1250 Questions 1250 7V4 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator Georges - Why not? 1250 Questions 1250 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I am at a loss to understand the honourable senator's question. He implies that he asked me a question about interest rates on housing loans and that I answered that the Government was having a look at this matter. I am at a loss to understand this. This matter would be one for the Treasurer. As the Leader of the Government in the Senate said, the increased rate was imposed for the special purpose of curbing inflation. I am not aware of any occasion on which I said that the Government would look at this area of home finance, but I assure the honourable senator that the Government has made more money available in the Budget. As he knows, more money has been made available to those requiring money to build homes. The interest rate is, as the Leader said, a matter for the Treasurer. 1250 Questions 1251 Questions 1251 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop - Yes. a subsidy by way of a taxation concession. 1251 Questions 1251 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - Yes. 1251 Questions 1251 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - lt is true that the receipts tax as such will cease to be in existence as from 1st October, lt is equally true that legislation will be introduced in the Senate before it rises to validate the imposition of this tax up to 30th September. The removal after 30th September of the loadings which have been placed upon consumer goods because of the receipts tax is a matter which would come within the responsibility of the States. The honourable senator has implied in his question that the Commonwealth Government should express a view in relation to the removal of the loadings. I should think that it would be axiomatic that a loading which has been placed on an item as a result of a receipts duty will be removed once the receipts duly ceases to exist. It seems to me that this would be a basic principle. However, other situations which have arisen in the meantime could affect the position. I think I should direct the honourable senator's question to the Treasurer and I will do so. 1252 Questions 1252 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - This sitting. 1252 Questions (Question No. 700) Senator MULVIHILL(through Senator O'Byrne) asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: Do the Minister and the Australian Capita) Territory Commissioner for Police see any connection between castration yesterday of a Labrador dog and the slaughter of kangaroos last week. What progress has been made in the apprehension of the perpetrators. 1252 Questions 1252 1252 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior, upon notice: In view of a recent reply to a question from a Government member in which the Minister stated that 6 members of the Federal Parliament operated from private premises and costs of telephones installed under these circumstances are covered by the Department, (a) in which States are these telephones operating and who are the members concerned, and (b) is a private business of any kind operated on any of the 6 premises concerned. Senator COTTON-The Minister for the Interior has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The Commonwealth Government through the Department of the Interior pays the telephone costs of the Member for Gellibrand, Mr H. J. McIvor, M.P., whose electorate office is located at his home, la Govan Street, Footscray, Victoria; and the Member for McMillan, Mr A. A. Buchanan, M.P., whose electorate office is located at his home, Pine Lodge, Beaconsfield, Victoria; the Member for Holt, Mr L. S. Reid, D.F.C., M.P., leases an office at 18 Walker Street, Dandenong, Victoria, part of which is sublet as an electorate office for Mr Reid. In each of these cases costs of one telephone are paid by the Department of the Interior. Senator I.A. C. Wood conducts an electorate office at his business office at 115 Victoria Street, Mackay, Queensland. In this case cost of one telephone is paid by the Department of the Interior. The Member for Gippsland, the Honourable P. J. Nixon, M.P., occupies an electorate office at 6 Ruskin Street, Orbost, Victoria, which is subleased by J. A. Tanner & Co., Chartered Accountants. Senator R.J. D. Turnbull occupies an electorate office at 145 George Street, Launceston, Tasmania, which is leased from Dr I. G. Wright and Dr G. R. K. Frost. In both these cases the costs of the telephones installed at the electorate offices are paid by the Department of the Interior. The above 6 cases are those in which particular proposals submitted by individual senators or members for the leasing of premises as electorate offices have been approved. Altogether the Commonwealth pays the rent for electorate offices provided in non-Commonwealth premises in the case of some 140 senators and members. In all these cases the offices have been provided by the Commonwealth and are equipped with telephone facilities which are paid for by the Commonwealth. 1253 Questions 1253 1253 KTA ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland asked the Minister representing the Minister for Labour and National Service, upon notice: How many mothers with children under 6 years of age are in the work force in each of the States. Senator WRIGHT-The Minister for Labour and National Service has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: No statistics are available showing the number of mothers in the labourforce with children under six years of age. However, a survey conducted by the Bureau of Census and Statistics in May 1969 of persons in the labour force with responsibility for children under six year of age gave the following information: These figures include not only females, but also widowed, divorced and permanently separated males, with children under six years of age. 1253 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - On 29th September 1970, Senator O'Byrne asked me a question without notice concerning increases in consumer prices. I indicated I would refer the question to the Treasurer. The Treasurer has supplied the following information in answer to the honourable senator's question: The consumer price index was 3.5 per cent higher in the second half of 1969-70 than in the second half of 1968-69. Over the same period, the index for the food group increased by 3.1 per cent. Within the period there was an accelerating tendency; the total index rose at an annual rate of 4.2 per cent between the first and second halves of 1969-70, while the annual rate of increase for the food group index was 4.8 per cent. These high rates of increase are largely a reflection of inflationary tendencies on the wage side evident throughout 1969-70 together with mounting pressures of demand until late in the year. The Government has acted, through fiscal and monetary policies, to curb excessive demand pressures, and the success of these policies has been evident in an easing tendency in the very tight labour market. Experience suggests, however, that there is an appreciable lag before an easing trend in consumer prices. Meanwhile, upward pressures on costs emanating from very large increases in wages are continuing; average earnings increased by 9.0 per cent in the year to the June quarter, and increases of this magnitude, being far in advance of the rate of growth in productivity, must be reflected in substantial increases in unit costs and, ultimately, in consumer prices. In the particular matter of the prices of foodstuffs, there are numerous influences at work in addition to the general economic factors mentioned above. In particular, supply considerations play a big part in short-term price movements. Drought conditions, for example, were a major factor in the sharp increases in food prices between 1965-66 and 1967-68. Thereafter, until recently, food prices rose less rapidly than prices in general. As for methods of stabilising prices, the Government's most effective contribution to this end lies in following sound and responsiblefiscal and monetary policies directed, in an overall sense, to keeping the level of demand in the economy rising adequately but not excessively. In respect of rising costs, the Government exercises its limited influence as best it can, but there is a need for general community awareness that excessive demands, whether on employers, customers or even governments, can only tend to perpetuate inflation. 1253 K2I 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator BRANSON -(Western Australia) - In accordance with the provisions of the Public Works Committee Act 1969, I present the report relating to the following proposed work: Commonwealth Offices - Stage 1 at Hobart, Tasmania. In the light of what the Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Sir Kenneth Anderson) said on Friday and your remarks, Mr President, I do not seek leave to make a statement. 1253 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - Pursuant to section 13 of the Aboriginal Enterprises (Assistance) Act 1968 I present the second annual report by the Office of Aboriginal Affairs on the administration and operation of the Act for the year ended 30th June 1970. 1253 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - Pursuant to section 3 1 of the Atomic Energy Act 1953-1966 I present the eighteenth annual report of the Australian Atomic Energy Commission for the year ended 30th June 1970 together with financial statements and the Auditor-General's report on those statements. An interim report of the Commission was presented to the Senate on 1st October 1970. 1254 JXR CP; NCP from May 1975 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN -BROCKMAN - Pursuant to section 12 of the Marginal Dairy Farms Agreements Act 1970, I present a copy of an agreement made between the Commonwealth and the State of Queensland in relation to the marginal dairy farms reconstruction scheme. 1254 JXR CP; NCP from May 1975 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN -BROCKMAN- Pursuant to section 17 of the Meat Research Act 1960-1968, I present the fourth annua] report of the Australian Meat Research Committee for the year ended 30th June 1970. An interim report of the Committee was presented to the Senate on 16th September 1970. 1254 JZQ LP 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON -(New South Wales - Minister for Supply) - by leave - The Senate having agreed to the motion for the special adjournment of the Senate till 2.30 p.m. tomorrow I indicate that at 10 a.m. tomorrow estimates committees B, C and D will meet. As resolved, at 2.30 p.m. the Senate will meet, have question time in the normal way, and at approximately 4 p.m. after the disposal of questions, statements and resolutions it is proposed that estimates committees A, C and D will meet. The Senate will reassemble tomorrow night at 10 p.m. to enable any matters to be dealt with and to enable the normal resolution of adjournment to take place. I seek the concurrence of honourable senators in the adoption of this course. 1255 K3T 0 0 CAMERON, Donald Newton Senator Donald Cameron asked how the concession of 400 gallons a year for home wine makers had been arrived at. The Government acknowledges that home wine production is of real meaning to migrant family groups, and traditional freedom is allowed to them in this country. Further, the concession assists in the absorption of the wine grape crop. The Government decided that the concession was appropriate but it imposed very strict conditions that none could be sold, otherwise all of the wine would be excisable. Determination of the upper limit of 400 gallons is based upon what is considered to be a reasonable consumption quantity for traditional home wine producing family groups, not only for single families. It is thought that in a family group someone will be the head wine maker and that he will produce the wine and the whole family group will drink it. Groups of families band together in cooperative schemes, and 400 gallons a year spread over 5, 6 or 7 families is certainly not an excessive concession. If sales tax had been imposed instead of an excise any wine made for home use and not for sale would have been exempted so, therefore, in a sales tax situation a concession still would have been available. Senator Wriedtraised some queries about diesel fuel and asked for some alleviation of the diesel fuel tax for public transport authorities, lt is very difficult to make distinctions between various classes of users of diesel fuel. An exemption for transport authorities would create a precedent for similar concessions to other groups of local and semi-governmental authorities. To grant the proposed concession would re-introduce anomalies of the kind the tax was designed to remove. For example, prior to the introduction of the diesel fuel tax in 1957 fuel used in petrol vehicles was taxed whereas that used in disel vehicles was not. Those are the answers to the points raised in the general debate on these Bills. I have nothing further to say except to suggest to the Senate that, as requested by the Leader of the Opposition, the Bills be voted on separately. That means that we now can put the question on the first Bill, the Excise Tariff Bill 1970. Question put: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1257 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McManus - And not just from the oil companies - from all of them. 1257 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Perhaps Senator McManus would place on the table details of donations to his Party's funds. I would urge that the Australian Labor Party do likewise. 1257 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY -I do not know about that. I was Federal Secretary of the ALP some years ago. At that time there was nothing in our funds that could not be revealed.I am not saying that certain funds did not come from certain people and certain organisations that found their way into payment of the cost of election campaigns. I would see nothing wrong in laying out details of that. Whenever the Government wants to raise additional revenue it turns first of ail to the people who drink liquor.I miss out on paying that excise. This is one of the first Budgets containing increases in excise that have not affected beer and spirits. The wine industry is one primary industry that was showing hopeful signs. Now the Government has picked on that industry to impose excise duty. Government supporters say lamely: If the excise unduly affects the industry we will have a look at it.' I can see in the chamber the very fine gentlemen who advise the Minister. I cannot imagine that they would be very sympathetic towards removing a tax. As with anyone else who has received revenue, once they get the money it would need quite a wrench to get it back from them. We struck oil in this country. Did the price of petrol go up in any other country after it found oil? I am seeking information. I do not know what happened. We all were delighted when at last oil was found in this country. We said: Look at it from the defence point of view.' All of us had great worries about petrol and oil during the struggle from 1939 to 1945. No doubt, if oil had not been found in Australia, we would have had tremendous worries in this respect if unfortunately another war occurred in the future. Fortunately we found oil. But what has happened? The people of Australia now pay more for their petrol. 1 know that Government supporters will say that in Australia it costs more to refine oil and that the standard of living here is far better than it is in the Middle East. 1258 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Of course we do. We pay more for sugar in this country. 1258 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Are you supporting the industry by paying more for sugar? Our friend Senator Byrne introduced the question of sugar; so let us look at it. A few years ago there was a glut on the world sugar market. 1258 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Wail a minute. YOU asked the question. Let me have some time to answer and to say what I think about the sugar industry. Then there was -:i shortage of sugar and the price on world markets rose. The sugar industry is one of the few industries in Australia which arc controlled. I cannot go to Innisfail or anywhere else up north and start growing sugar. The industry is controlled by a board. The Cuba crop, which mainly served Europe, failed. The Russian bee! crop failed also. Therefore the price of sugar rose and the body controlling the sugar industry in Queensland immediately granted extra acreages for sugar production. The CHAIRMAN (Senator Bull) - Order! I think the honourable senator ought to get back to the Bill. 1258 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - 1 only wanted to be courteous and to answer the question asked. However, this Bill does deal with an excise on fuel. Esso-BHP discovered oil in this country. I hope I am not out of court now but ( remember once saying that oil imports cost us about S267m a year. I hope I am not far out in saying that our discoveries would save us that amount. I hope the Minister will be kind enough to inform us how much oil imports cost us before oil was discovered here. I am sorry r mentioned a figure because my mind has to go back to that time and I cannot correctly recall the figures. The people who found oil in Australia certainly did Australia a great service. They also did themselves an excellent service. However, what do we find now? I find that every time I put petrol into my car or anybody else puts petrol in his car the price of petrol has gone up. Now the Government has reduced taxation on people earning over $5,000 a year. This was a stupid move from an economic point of view because the Government has to raise extra money to balance what it has lost. Everyone who drives a motor is socked again. Why are honourable senators so placid as to vote for extra costs? Today the only thing controlled generally throughout the world is the wage paid to the people who work. The Government can put up the price of petrol and the price of motor cars, lt can do what it likes. When asked why, the Government talks of free enterprise. I do not take this matter as lightly as others do. I regard these as vital matters. We should not have to pay more. The Government was wrong from an economic point of view. It lost revenue by reducing taxation on the income of people earning over $5,000 a year and it is now imposing these additional charges to recoup that money. I think the Minister for Civil Aviation (Senator Cotton), who is in charge of this legislation in this chamber, has the necessary numbers to have it passed and I do not think it is worthwhile going further into my case. 1 do not believe that the Australian people should be slugged another 3c a gallon. 1259 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop - You would not say that is a fair comparison with the war years, would you? 1259 JQR 0 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - 1 did not regard 1948-49 as being I of the war years. 1259 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - Nations were being rebuilt. 1259 JQR 0 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - That may be so. 1259 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - No, but I did take- 1259 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - Contrary to the honourable senator's view, I do have some idea because I brought with me the figures I had for the Budget debate. In 1949-50 indirect tax collections amounted to $42 lm - and in 1970-71 they are estimated to be $2,187,800,000- five times as much. On the other hand, direct taxation increased from $569m to $4,487,500,000- eight times as much. Whichever way you look at it you cannot deny the fact that in the life of this Government direct taxation has risen and indirect taxation has fallen. It is a simple exercise, senator. Do you want revenue raised for the purposes of the Australian people? If you do not, say so. How do you want it raised - in direct taxation or indirect taxation? And in what proportion? Do you want us to arrange heavy deficit Budgets or do you want us to have a balanced Budget? T cannot answer or help the honourable senator any more than that. It is a simple exercise. These are indirect taxes to raise revenue for the purpose of assisting the Australian people. Question put: That the House of Representatives be requested to leave out the proposed amendments to Item lt (Senator Bishop's request'). 1260 KBY 0 0 YOUNG, Harold Senator Young - The tax is not imposed on the industry; it is imposed on the consumer. 1260 JXX 0 0 DRURY, Arnold Senator DRURY - It must have some effect on the industry. In the Budget speech the Treasurer said that the rise would be about 8c a bottle. That is the increase on wine when it leaves the producer, but by the time the wine reaches the consumer the cost has risen further. It has been pointed out that in some instances the extra charge for a bottle of wine is not 8c or 15c as was expected but 20c or 30c a bottle. I feel that must have some effect, in the final analysis, on the industry. We have seen what happened to other industries when taxation imposts have been placed upon them. I feel that the tax is an unfair one and that we should vote against it. Consequently, I moved the amendment on behalf of the Opposition. 1261 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP -(South Australia)- I suggest that the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No. 1) 1970 and the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No. 2) 1970 be taken together and passed through all stages together. Motion (by Senator Cotton) - by leave agreed to: That so much of the Standing Orders be suspended as would prevent the question with regard to the remaining stages for the passage through the Senate of the following Bills being put in 1 motion at each stage and the consideration of all such Bills together in Committee, the Bills in question being the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No.1) 1970 and the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No. 2) 1970. 1262 KTA ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland - Who do you mean by 'in the corner'? 1262 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - The farmers' people in the corner. Who do you think 1 mean? They are supposed to be the champions of the rural producers. 1262 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Isn't that beautiful. This is the situation with which my friend is so contented. For wool we are getting the lowest prices for 30 years. The primary producers have wheat that they cannot sell. They have thousands of tons of butter, and I do not know where they are going to sell it. The same applies to rice. These people in the Country Party go outside and shout about how they stand by the rural producer, and yet they have not said one word against the increased excise of 3c on diesel fuel, when practically ever tractor irrespective 1262 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - That is right, Mr Chairman. I would expect you to rule in that way. You were quite Tight. All i want to know is this: Why do not these people in the Country Party rise and at least defend the people who live off the land and of whose welfare they say outside they are the only custodians.I have said here before - I will not have many opportunities to say it again, but let me repeat it now - that as long as they are content to be the little people in the Liberal-Country Party Government and as long as they get into the second place on the Party ticket they will not care about the farmers. However much 1 may disagree politically with my opponents in the Liberal Party - and I do disagree with them - at least I know where they stand. 1263 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - The honourable senator mentions the left wing. Let him trot out the Communists. Honourable senators opposite have done it since 1920. ft is nothing new. At least I give some credit to the members of the Liberal Party, however much i may oppose them. At least they have views. They do not sit by meekly and take everything that is meted out to them. The Country Party is as silent as the grave when it comes to standing and objecting to the fact that oil used for farm production is taxed. 1263 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - Yes, it is. The CHAIRMAN (Senator Bull)- Order! I call Senator Kennelly. 1263 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - That is right, Mr Chairman. I do not mind answering one interjection but it is hard for me to pick up four or five. I want the members of the Country Party to get up now and say whether diesel fuel is used by the rural producer in the production of the commodities that he sells. One would have thought that the most ardent opponents of this increase would have been those people who sit in the Country Party corner. 1263 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - J would have spoken with much more vim, if I could, if 1 thought that we had to pay it. We are outside the scope of the legislation; so we are a bit lucky. Surely it must affect the rural producer. I am told by one of my colleagues that it does, and I believe that he himself is a rural producer. Therefore why are the members of the Country Party so silent? I am amazed to note how silence reigns supreme. I can see the glee, the smiles, on the faces of the Liberal tigers on the other side of the chamber. They are men who have a set principle. Of course, they are entitled to their principles in this country. They are prepared to fight at all times. They do not sit there in silence, even without that smile that makes this life a little better than it was. Therefore I hope that before the vote is taken at the Committee stage we will hear from those champions of the farmers who must be affected by this tax. 1265 K19 0 0 POKE, Albert Senator Poke - You are not doing too badly yourself. 1265 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - I am trying. I do not mind a little bit of electionering, but I think it would be much more effective if it were done when the proceedings are broadcast tomorrow. That would save us wasting time and enable us to get on with the job today. 1266 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - And in Victoria. 1266 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - And in Victoria. In South Australia we produce about 70 per cent of Australia's production of wine and that is the only profitable section of primary industry today. The Government, with the support of the Democratic Labor Party is determined to impoverish the wine industry, just as it has impoverished every other section of primary industry. Our concern is for the wine growers - not the wine drinkers. We have a similar concern for the tobacco industry. Senator McManus and the Democratic Labor Party give no consideration to the pensioner who has received an increased pension of 50c per week but is required to meet an additional impost upon his tobacco and cigarettes. We of the Australian Labor Party are concerned about this, but it does not concern the Democratic Labor Party. If there is an election issue in our opposition to the increased excise on tobacco, let the honourable senator go to the smokers of Victoria and to the pensioners in Victoria who want a pipe of tobacco and tell them that he supported the Government in increasing the price of tobacco. lt is because the increased excise raises all costs in Australia that the Australian Labor Party is concerned. Whether it is an election period or not, the Labor Party consistently has voted against measures which will increase the cost of commodities to the working people of Australia. The Democratic Labor Party must take the responsibility if it is not prepared to oppose the increase in costs. As has been pointed out, an opportunity to oppose the increases was given in respect of every item. Some political advantage must be gained from this situation because we have demonstrated that we are the only ones concerned with the less privileged people of Australia and honourable senators from the 3 other political parties have shown that they are not concerned. 1267 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! 1267 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - Honourable senators know that it is not there because the Government is hand in glove with the Hospitals Contribution Fund. 1267 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! Senator Mulvihill,I did not appreciate you continuing with your remarks while I was calling for order. 1267 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I did not hear you, Mr President. I was listening to Senator Greenwood. Senator COTTON(New South Wales)Minister for Civil Aviation) (5.43) - This has been a fascinating exercise and I have enjoyed it. All I wish to ask is: How do we get revenue to spend for the Australian people without raising it by taxes, direct and indirect? Question put: That the Bill be now read a third time. 1269 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - Those who are totally and permanently incapacitated. 1269 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - Yes, the TPIs. I regard them as receiving compensation rather than a pension. I have said this about widows' pensions. I always regarded the widow's pension and the war widow's pension as being quite different. One is compensation for service rendered to the nation whereas the other is a form of pension payable to civilians. I believe that the policy in respect of the blind could quite easily be extended to this handful of people employed in sheltered workshops. An alternative proposal was put forward in the Australian 'Financial Review' of 10th July last suggesting that the means test be extended to $20 in the case of people who are able to extend themselves in employment. I am referring to people working in this particular field. Either of the 2 suggestions I have mentioned is practical. I hope the Minister will accept one of such proposals because the cost would be meagre and the benefit would be a godsend to those it would help. 1 hope that the Government will be even more flexible in helping workshops, or as the Minister referred to them, activity centres, and thereby do something practical for the severely handicapped. Some voluntary organisations with tremendous energy have been able to commence sheltered workshops but are unable to come within the ambit of the Government's scheme because the majority of the people employed by them are not receiving at least $4 a week. This may appear to people without knowledge of the handicapped to be reasonable but the parents of the physically and mentally handicapped know the humane side and what a great boost to the morale of those employed in these workshops and centres, and to those carrying on the administrative side of these workshops, a Government grant would bring. I ask the Minister to widen the scope of the Bill to assist all genuine cases, lt is a great tragedy to see unfortunate handicapped people, many in wheelchairs, on the streets selling raffle tickets to keep these workshops or centres in existence. A further great problem for all those institutions is the maintenance cost, lt has been pointed out to me that it is not difficult to raise the capital cost. The great problem is the recurring maintenance cost. lt is true that this Bill helps considerably in relation to the salaries of special supervisors, medical guidance and social workers, but I ask the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) not to allow red tape to interfere and not to allow an institution to suffer because it may be short of finance to meet maintenance costs, lt is important that this recurring yearly cost be met. The Minister will appreciate that my appeal is for workshops or centres which are struggling - not those which have overcome their early or teething problems and which the Minister referred to as business enterprises. I was fortunate to secure from the Minister a book on sheltered workshops - the 'Sheltered Workshop Manual'. It points out that sheltered workshops came into being in 1950. The manual is a very thorough and excellent work. Tt was produced in 1962 and revised in 1965. The present manual, which is available to honourable senators if they apply to the Minister for Social Services, is the third edition. The appeal that I make is not for those workshops which are specified and stipulated in the Act and which are operating more or less under its charter but is for the workshops which are in their initial stages. Perhaps some of them are not as efficient as many of the long standing institutions such as Centre Industries and Bedford Industries in South Australia. J believe that it is very important that assistance be given to institutions in their early stages. I would like to see Government assistance given to securing suitable work for these workshops. In the 1950s, when I was in the other House, in one of my very early speeches in Parliament - in fact, it was almost 20 years ago - at page 1495 of Hansard of 26th October 1950 I advised of the introduction in the House of Commons of a Bill for the purpose of providing for the rehabilitation and re-establishment of disabled citizens. In Great Britain an Act of Parliament was introduced to make compulsory the employment of a percentage of disabled and aged workers in industry imperative. I believed then that Australia should have followed the pattern of that legislation. I believe now that the Government should consider the introduction of the same principle in relation to employment by the Public Service Board. I know that in the 1950s people with asthma or chronic complaints of that nature were not accepted in the Public Service. In doing some research on the matter of physically and mentally handicapped people for a speech I contacted the Public Service Board about the matter. I am pleased to know that today about 8,000 people who are affected by some form of asthma have been accepted in the Commonwealth Public Service. Their employment results from the Boyer report and from the many promptings that have been made by parliamentarians on both sides of both Houses. I think this employment could be extended. I ask the Minister to give consideration to this matter because at least at this stage there is a degree of sympathy, even extending to sympathy from Government sources, for the problem of handicapped persons that confronts us at present. 1 pay tribute to the officers of the Department of Social Services, and of the rehabilitation sections of various depart ments and : o the many thousands of dedicated workers throughout Australia whose lives are devoted to the work of helping those who are unfortunately handicapped. I give credit to the Government for introducing this legislation, as far as it goes, but 1 hope the Minister will heed our requests. On behalf of the Australian Labor Party, as I mentioned at the outset of my remarks, we intend to support the Bill. 1277 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON -(Western Australia (8.58) - I do not propose to extend the time of this debate very much. I am a great enthusiast for the work being done by sheltered workshops for the disabled in the community. A very good friend of mine, the late Rev. Ralph Sutton, established one of the first examples of the sheltered workshop prior to assistance being given by the Commonwealth. This was the Good Samaritan scheme in Western Australia. It has now developed into a large undertaking. I appreciate also the assistance that has been given by the Government to this very worthy scheme in all States. Some 3 years ago in a debate - I think it was in an Address-in-Reply debate - I directed attention to one avenue of the community which was disadvantaged in comparison with the rest of the community, and I asked that some consideration be given to it. I have spoken about it since on at least one occasion, and I take this opportunity now to ask the Minister whether anything has been done in this regard. Has any consideration been given to the suggestion that I put forward? I contend that a disabled section of the community which is not physically disabled but which, to an extent, is mentally disabled is the adult Aboriginal community that has received no training. There is no doubt that the Aboriginals in this sector have ability, but it is untrained. They can acquire manual dexterity, but they have not been trained. It seems to me that we have an obligation to the rightful Aboriginal Australians to do something for them. I suggest that we give consideration to an extension of the scheme of providing sheltered employment assistance so that it could encompass the needs of a section pf the community such as this. I believe that this is the generous type of gesture to the Aboriginal community which would do much to create in them confidence as to the attitude of the Government. I suggest that it is a worthwhile approach to the problem that they face. The Aboriginals are certainly a particular group of people who, by background and training, do not fit readily into our community. Some of those I have met have particular intelligence although they lack the necessary training. I should like to know from the Minister - nothing in this Bill covers such a situation - whether she is aware of any consideration having been given to the needs of this disabled section of the community, f believe that it would be very worthwhile to give some consideration to this matter, even if at the moment we are not doing anything. I am in accord with the Bill, as is the rest of the Opposition. We believe that it is a further step in the right direction of helping those in our community who need assistance of this type. But I would appreciate some information on the consideration that may have been given or may be given in the future to the disabled and dispossessed section of the community to which I have referred. Senator DameANNABELLE RANKIN (Queensland- Minister for Housing) (9.3) - in reply - I thank all the honourable senators who have spoken on this legislation tonight. Their very real concern for persons who have some form of disability has been most obvious. 1 am sure that we all meet on common ground in our support of this legislation. There are one or two areas in which I will endeavour to reply to points that have been raised by the honourable senators who have spoken. 1 think 1 would be echoing comments made by Senator Fitzgerald, who was the first speaker, and the other speakers who followed him if I said that I agree entirely that this is legislation to assist those courageous people who, because of some disability either physical or mental, have to have this extra assistance so that they may become part of the community, so that they may have confidence, and so that their lives may be happier and richer in every possible way. This legislation is one more step towards achieving for them a better and fuller life in the community. Senator Fitzgeraldspoke about sheltered workshops that are not approved. 1 have here a note which says that we have to differentiate between sheltered workshops and activity centres. Activity centres, as a rule, pay only a very nominal wage; but if one of these centres plans to reorganise and to become a workshop every help is given to it to do so. Quite a number of former activity centres have become sheltered workships during the last 3 years and, of course, have benefited from the legislation. Senator Fitzgerald also spoke about maintenance costs. We must remember that this legislative power is a concurrent power shared with the States. This Bill represents a further step in the Government's programme and it is to be followed by others as the Government sees where the greatest area of need exists. Those last few words are very important ones. Senator Davidsonand Senator Byrne referred to sheltered workshops for the aged. I inform them that quite a number of elderly people, including age pensioners, work in existing sheltered workshops. Retired tradesmen are able to augment superannuation pay or age pension by doing key work, thus helping the handicapped workers and also gaining for themselves self satisfaction. If they have become a little disabled with agc, T am sure that they also gain confidence and happiness in doing that. I must apologise to Senator Milliner for having to leave the chamber for a few moments while he was speaking. Although it was unavoidable, I regret it. He asked some questions which I will endeavour to answer for him. One of them was: How many disabled employees will be taking advantage of the subsidised accommodation? We cannot tell him that at present. It is not known at present. But I am sure that, however many it is, this legislation will be of tremendous advantage to them. I am certain that this legislation means a great deal to these people. He also asked about the position when persons trained for some years in a sheltered workshop but were unable to engage in outside industry. 1 am informed that the subsidy is payable once a person is able to engage in normal employment, as defined in clause 7 of the Bill, whether this is in outside industry or in the sheltered workshop in which he trained or another sheltered workshop. This money is made available to compensate the workshop for the time and money spent on training the disabled person. Senator Millineralso asked about discretion and whether this legislation will be administered flexibly. I am informed that this has always been the practice, and it will continue to be so. He also referred to a question that he asked me, as Minister representing the Minister for Social Services (Mr Wentworth), about a letter written to him by the Minister - a copy of which was given to me by the Minister - concerning the names of workshops that did not encourage the best workers to graduate from those workshops. I can only repeat the information that was given by the Minister. The survey information that he has is confidential and must be kept that way because it was given in a confidential survey. I refer now to the point raised by Senator Wilkinson. My understanding of his comment was that Aboriginal people were not receiving any assistance in this kind of training. I inform him - I think he knows this and perhaps I am not taking the point as he made it - that if they are physically or mentally disabled they receive the same assistance. I have known Aboriginal children who have received this assistance and who are doing very well. 1 think the honourable senator was referring to general overall assistance. I am informed that some training schemes are conducted by the States and that other training projects are conducted by the Commonwealth. Also, a great deal of assistance is given by the States in the field of education and this would be of help to these people. 1279 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - I am not aware whether that is so, but 1 shall endeavour to find out for the honourable senator. It has occurred to me that with the money that we make available for educational training something could possibly be done in this area. I am only surmising when I say this. I shall endeavour to get the details for the honourable senator because I believe that there is substance in the point that he has raised. However, this has nothing to do with the legislation now before us which applies to physically and mentally handicapped people. Senator Davidson asked for some information concerning areas of activity in South Australia. I am unable to get information on this from the departmental officers, but I shall do whatever I can to get details for him and advise him of the situation. I believe that I have answered the main questions which have been raised. If there is any further matter that I can answer during the Committee stage I shall do the best I can to assist. 1 thank the Senate for the support which has been given to this legislation. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. 1279 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - If the person is paid normal wages in the workshop for a period of 12 months, that person then is regarded as being in normal employment. 1279 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - If in the sheltered workshop there is a person who has been trained for a period longer than 6 months and that person is sufficiently skilled to attract the appropriate award wage- 1279 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - Then the sheltered workshop receives the payment of $500? 1280 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - No, it is outside in industry. 1280 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER -I think that I now have the interpretation. Perhaps the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. A person who has been Drained in a sheltered workshop does not have to go into outside industry but may remain employed in the sheltered workshop for 12 months, in which case the sheltered workshop would qualify for the $500. Senator DameANNABELLE RANKIN (Queensland - Minister for Housing) (9.16) - My information is that a person can be employed either in the sheltered workshop for a period of 12 months, during which time he receives the normal wages, or outside the sheltered workshop and receive the normal wages, and in both cases the $500 is paid to the workshop organisation that provided the training. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - This is what I have just said. 1280 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - You mentioned employment outside the sheltered workshop also. 1280 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - The Minister has put it on record now that' that is the position. Senator DameANNABELLE RANKIN (Queensland - Minister for Housing) (9.18) - If I may start all over again, the position is that if a person is trained in a sheltered workshop for not less than 6 months and then is employed in the sheltered workshop for a period of 12 months, in normal employment receiving the normal payment of wages, that organisation receives the $500. Alternatively, a person may be trained and then work outside the sheltered workshop and, if he receives the normal wages, the organisation receives a payment of $500. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - This is whatI have said. A person must receive the normal wage for 12 months. 1 have said that in reply to each question. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - The award wage. 1280 JYA 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'Byrne - They are not the same words. 1283 KRU 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator Little - He was brought there by Victoria's greatest Minister for Health, Mr Barry. 1283 K3A 0 0 BROWN, William Senator BROWN - I believe credit should be given where it is due. I think criticism should be given where it is due. The responsibility for the appointment of Dr Cunningham Dax is another matter. The point is that he is an extraordinary man. One could not be other than moved by his dedication and sincerity about the welfare of those who were so afflicted. 1283 K3A 0 0 BROWN, William Senator BROWN - I sincerely hope that Tasmania derives the same tremendous advantages as were gained by the Victorian Mental Health Authority as a consequence of Dr Cunningham Dax's office in that State in the period, I think, from 1952 to 1961. He wrote a book which I commend to honourable senators on both sides of the Senate but particularly those who sit on the Government side.It gives an insight into the requirements of what might be described as the modern techniques and methods of treatment of those who are mentally afflicted. His book is entitled Asylum to Community'.It was first published in 1961. In summing up the chapter devoted to staff, he said: The staff have first been considered because whatever may be done to the buildings, or the equipment it is the stairs morale, their efficiency and their standards that make or break any service; but most importantly of all, the patients' welfare and ultimate rehabilitation is more dependent on the staff's understanding, attitude and training than on any other factors. The point I am making is the need for properly trained and skilled staff in the many fields to provide adequate services for those so affected. Dr Cunningham Dax's chapter entitled 'The Pattern of the Service' supports the amendment I propose to move. It complements the suggestions made by Dr Stoller back in 1955 as a consequence of an examination of the state of health services throughout the Commonwealth in 1954. Honourable senators should remember that this book was first published in 1961, some 7 years later. Amongst other things, Dr Cunningham Dax said: The principle behind the planniog for a complete service has been that all people, at all times, in all places, with all forms of psychiatric illness should be able to receive treatment within a reasonable distance of their homes. It was assumed that a complete mental health service must be concerned wilh (a) the promotion of mental health, (b) the prevention of mental illness, (c) out-patient care, (d) day-hospitals, (e) in-patient early-treatment, (f) in-patient rehabilitation, (g) community after-care services, and (h) a follow-up organisation. 1 think it will be conceded by honourable senators that those recommendations and suggestions I mentioned were made by 2 men quite eminent in this field of medical health. I hope honourable senators will support the amendment I now move to the motion: That this Bill be now read a second time. I move that the following words be added to the motion: but the Senate is of opinion that provision should bc made by the Commonwealth for adequate financial assistance to allow thu development of community and integrated mental health services on a regional basis. I believe that what 1 have said to date is a constructive criticism of the Bill. At the same time I believe that the amendment is a constructive one and one which proposes to express the opinion of the Senate that there is a need for adequate financial assistance to allow the development of community and integrated mental health services on a reasonable basis. 1 was rather concerned to read recently in a Hansard of the other place an answer given by the Minister for Social Services (Mr Wentworth). 1 think it pointed out the enormous extent of the task of providing the services to which I referred. It would require much in excess of the $5m proposed by the Government for expenditure during the 1970-71 Budget year and it would require an extension of the area in which the Commonwealth Government currently makes those grants available - namely, for capital works and equipment only. On 15th September, in answer to a question asked by the honourable member for Cook (Mr Dobie) about physically and mentally handicapped persons - and I will not weary the Senate by reading the whole question and answer - the Minister referred to the fact that Mr J. Griffith of Perth had recently, at his request, made some examination of the needs and adequacies of facilities for physically and mentally handicapped people. I understand that the Minister and Cabinet are currently considering the result of that examination. The Minister said: I wish to mention to the House one matter that has come up in our investigations. I refer to the number of mentally handicapped among handicapped people generally. A very recent survey of invalid pensioners in the age group 16 to 21 years showed that no less than 61 per cent suffered from mental retardation and another 14 per cent from associated mental diseases. This shows, despite the widely held belief created, because some disabilities bring themselves more in front of the popular eye than others, that the real problem here is in the mental and not in the physical field. I am not saying that we do not have a problem in the physical field. I made that final reference so that it would not be thought that f was misquoting or only partially quoting the Minister's reply. The pertinent reference in his reply was to the fact that the recent survey showed that of the invalid pensioners in the age group 16 to 21 years ho less than 61 per cent are suffering from mental retardation and that another 14 per cent arc suffering from associated mental diseases. 1 have read overseas reports on this subject. One was from the United States of America and it indicated that President Kennedy, during his term of office, pointed out the dramatic increase in the number of persons either mentally retarded, intellectually handicapped or with some mental defect. This was referred to also by the Minister for Social Services. The pattern in the United States of America showed a sharp rise. It seems to me that the pattern disclosed there, on the basis of extensive and authentic examinations in this field, is beginning to emerge in our country. That fortifies and supports the amendment I moved on behalf of the Opposition. If carried, it would require the Commonwealth Government in consultation with the States, which is conceded - and at all times this would be so - to increase its allocation and to extend the areas in which that allocation may be used. T acknowledge and appreciate that the Minister for Housing, in the course of her second reading speech, indicated, as did the Minister for Health in another place: However, the Government is aware that the various Slates are now placing more emphasis on expenditure on community mental health projects, such as early treatment psychiatric centres, day centres and hostels and on integrated services. ' lt also recognises that the emphasis on capital expenditure in traditional menial health institutions is declining in favour of such projects, i large proportion of which qualify for Commonwealth assistance under the legislation which the* Bill proposes to continue. In her final remarks she said: The development by the States of community and integrated mental health services will be kept under observation by the Commonwealth so that at the end of the 3-year period, the Government will be in a position to consider what future role the Commonwealth should play in the mental health field. Quite obviously this area of consideration has not been overlooked completely by the Government. I say that because of the reference made by the Minister for Social Services in another place when replying to a question and by the Minister in this place in her second reading speech. A mass of material from competent and eminent people in this field has been available to the Commonwealth Government for 15 years. T refer to the report of Dr Stoller and his colleague and to the book by Dr Cunningham Dax in 1961. I think adequate advice and suggestions were contained in that report and in that book to justify the Commonwealth taking some initiative to encourage the Stages ?o expand their services and to assist thos? who are so less fortunate than many others in the community. I. repeat that the reply of the Minister for Social Services clearly indicated a sharp increase in the number of persons affected. As a consequence. I suggest that the amendment should commend itself 'o the Senate. I am reminded that the Senate agreed to constitute " the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare. That Committee, of which I am a member, had referred to it. by resolution of the Senate of 2nd September 1970. the problems of and the provisions for assistance to mentally and physically handicapped person-; in Australia. That Committee had its inaugural meeting on Wednesday. 23rd September. We had a short meeting. I do not mean 'short' in the sense that we neglected what was required to be done - not by any stretch of the imagination. We simply set down guidelines for our future operations. We sought information from various departments, both State and Commonwealth, in the first instance and from identifiable Commonwealth voluntary organisations. It is quite clear that the Government intends to wait for the report, which will be of an expansive character having regard to the nature of the inquiry that has been placed before the Committee, or to wait until the 3-year tenure of this Bill has expired before it does anything. It can be clearly established by authentic reports from competent people in this field that there are areas of deficiency at present. If the Government intends to wait, we feel that the standards of mental health in Australia will deteriorate rather than improve. It seems to me that a mutter such as mental health services should transcend or should be able to transcend the demarcations of political affiliations when a decision on the amendment has to be made. These people, unlike employee organisations, employer organisations or farmer organisations are not and cannot under any circumstances exercise the influences and pressures that the bodies to which I referred can exercise. They must always rely on those people who are responsible for legislation in the Parliament to acknowledge their requirements and to provide the necessary wherewithal to facilitate their adequate treatment with the ultimate object of rehabilitating them to the mainstream of life in our community. I commend the amendment to the Senate. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Wood) - Is the amendment seconded? 1285 KRU 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator Little - It is an indication of the knowledge of many of the present day doctors, too. 1286 K1F 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - That is so. The superintendent at Sunbury advised us that there were some inmates who had been there for many years and had never been visited by a relative. These large institutional buildings are entirely unsuited to the treatment of mentally ill people and the members of the staff are. at their wits end to know how they can work on the rehabilitation of the inmates. This type of thing is not beyond the knowledge of people today. In fact, many things have been written about it. I feel that the Commonwealth Government should get away from this business of a SI for $1 or $2 for $1 subsidy on a Commonwealth-State basis. Because of the problems which exist in the mental health field 1 believe that the Commonwealth Government should make a straight out grant to the States regardless of whether they provide matching funds, f also believe that the Commonwealth should make much larger grants than it does at present. It is only in recent years that the Commonwealth Government has commenced to do anything about providing worthwhile assistance in the field of mental health, f have only to refer to an article which appeared in a 'Current Affairs Bulletin' in 1964 to show that only in comparatively recent years has anything substantial been done in Australia about psychiatry. The article showed that in 1957 Australia and New Zealand could boast only one properly established university department of psychiatry. At that time there were only 2 full time professors of psychiatry in New South Wales, one in New Zealand and a half-time professor in South Australia. Neither Victoria nor Queensland had one. It is only in comparatively recent years that we have moved into the field of preventing mental illness. It is quite obvious to me that we are only just plugging up a few mouseholes at present in the manner in which we are going about this matter. 1 agree that this is not all the Commonwealth's fault. However, because of the national problem which exists in this field, the Commonwealth Government has to do more than it is doing at present. I was pleased to see this matter referred to the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare. However, 1 feel that an examination of it must go much deeper and take a much longer time than will be available to the Standing Committee. I venture to predict thai the Committee will recommend a national investigation. I doubt whether honourable senators realise that the reports which were made to the President of the United States of America indicated that 1 person in 10 had someone in his family who had some mental affliction. This represents a fantastic number of people with mental afflictions. In many cases we do not have the facilities to do anything about these people. The article in the 'Current Affairs Bulletin' to which I referred earlier indicates the enormous dimensions of the task facing a psychiatric service. The article relates to the 'rule of threes', which is a rough rule of thumb originally formulated in France but which has undoubtedly wider application. The article indicates that out of every 100,000 persons in the community 30 are admitted to hospital each year as emergency psychiatric patients. 300 occupy beds in hospital for the mentally ill or mentally defective, 3,000 are followed up in psychiatric clinics, and 30,000 have some type of psychological problem or are, at some time or another, in a situation of stress which is likely to interfere with their adjustment. I repeat that these figures are based on -a population of 100,000. A total of 30,000 people in a population of 100,000 have some minor problem, 30 are admitted to hospital each year and 300 occupy beds. Tn other words, the city of Canberra, which has a population of roughly 120,000. should be able to provide beds for 300 mentally deficient people. Of course, it cannot do so. Canberra docs not have a hospital of this nature. The city of Geelong in Victoria has approximately the same number of people - around 120,000. What is happening to these people at the moment? If they are bad enough they are sent away to one of the institutions to which I have referred which should be bulldozed down. If they are not that bad we accommodate them in a type of gaol and have them visited once a week by a psychiatrist. This is the way we are handling this mammoth mental health problem. I am quite certain that if a full inquiry of the magnitude which President Kennedy was prepared to initiate in the United States of America were held it would ascertain that we are only playing with the problem at present. Many thousands of people may find that they need attention but they are unable to obtain it. This brings us back to the amendment we have submitted to this Bill. I do not intend to hold up the Senate for very long. There is an absolute necessity to establish the regional services which are required. The times when people had to be sent from Hamilton and Warrnambool to Sunbury and Beechworth are gone. There should be centres where these people can be treated close to their own people.I have it on the authority of the Superintendent of the Sunbury Mental Hospital that the rehabilitation of people who are housed in mental hospitals could be much more quickly achieved if they were in regional centres with fewer patients. But what was far more important in his mind was that the patients should be close enough for people to visit them and give them some feeling that tbey were still wanted in the community. I suggest that people who are vitally concerned with this problem should support the amendment which has been submitted by Senator Brown on behalf of the Australian Labor Party. It seems to me that this, together with a comprehensive investigation into all fields of the mentally afflicted is the only answer. The amendment docs not apply just to the hospitalisation and the treatment of these people. It applies to many of the legal problems that exist in relation to those people who arc mentally afflicted. I recommend to the Senate that this amendment is appropriate and should be carried by an overwhelming majority. 1288 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN -(Queensland - Minister for Housing) (10.9) - in reply - I would like to thank those honourable senators who have spoken on this legislation tonight, because it is obvious that they have a very deep sympathy for those who need this particular assistance and are very anxious that help should be given wherever possible. The purpose of the Bill before the Senate, as we all know, is to extend the operation of the States Grants (Mental Health Institutions) Act 1964-67 for a further period of 3 years from 1st July of this year to 30th June 1973. It appeared to me that some honourable senators who spoke either did not have the proper information or were under a slight misapprehension. I think it is important to mention, in reply to some of the points raised by Senator Brown, that as well as the assistance for which this legislation is designed added assistance is also given in this area and in the field of research. The Commonwealth provides grants towards research into mental illness as well as in other fields through the National Health and Medical Research Council, which has a mental health committee. The Commonwealth pays for pharmaceutical benefits supplied in mental hospitals, and expenditure in this regard amounts to SI. 4m each year. Hospital benefits are also paid in relation to psychiatric cases in general hospitals, and such care is increasing. Senator Poyser spoke about professors of psychiatry. He said that in 1964 there were only two full time professors of psychiatry in New South Wales and one part time professor of psychiatry in South Australia. He inferred -I believe he was of this opinion - that there were no other professors of this type in other States. I just wish to bring him up to date and inform him that in1 970 there are two full time professors of psychiatry in New South Wales, one in South Australia, two in Victoria, one in Queensland, one in Western Australia and one in Tasmania. So f think that also is further added assistance. Honourable senators also spoke about community oriented services. The Australian Capital Territory is the only area in which the Commonwealth has responsibility for administration, and the Commonwealth has accepted the view that a community oriented service should be developed in the Australian Capital Territory. This is now getting under way. However, it is not the Commonwealth's role to tell the States to develop in the same way. They run their own affairs. Quite a bit has been said concerning community centres. This legislation provides for capital assistance to be paid for the construction and alteration of mental health institutions and for equipment in such institutions. Community centres, day hospitals and similar premises can be considered as being mental health institutions within the meaning of the Act. So in effect they ali are assisted through the legislation which is before the chamber at the moment. As well as having the Bill before us, we have an amendment which has been moved by Senator Brown and seconded by Senator Poyser. I would like to make a comment which 1 think answers the points Senator Brown raised concerning the amendment. If I may, I repeat the paragraph that he himself quoted from the second reading speech: The development by the States of community and integrated mental health services will be kept under observation by the Commonwealth so that at the end of the 3-year period, the Government will be in a position to consider what future role the Commonwealth should play in the mental health field. This is a very important paragraph. The Senate therefore has noted the views expressed by the State Health Ministers and has given notice that when the States develop and present their proposals the Government will consider them. At this stage, however, the States have not presented any such proposals, and until then it would bc premature for us to reverse the relative priorities which the States have placed on the development of community and integrated services On the one hand and continuation of capital assistance on the other hand. The present legislation does not restrict capital assistance for the construction of mental hospitals to provide mainly custodial care. In fact, a number of approvals have been granted in recent years for community mental health services, such as day hospitals and early treatment centres.It is significant, I believe, that the States, which have the constitutional responsibility for mental health services, have not at this stage asked the Commonwealth to provide funds specially for community type services. The conference of Health Ministers earlier this year said: The Ministers consider that the future of mental health services involves a much greater emphasis on the development and maintenance of community health services and propose to examine and present a comprehensive programme for assistance in this area. When this is done, when the States have developed and presented their proposal, the Government will examine it. For the present, the State Health Ministers have said that they have significant programmes of work still to be carried out and recommend a continuation of the States Grants (Mental Health Institutions) Act. The Bill now before the Senate provides for this continuation. The Government supports the legislation before the Senate but opposes the amendment. Question put: That the words proposed to be added (Senator Brown's amendment) be added. 1253 Questions 1253 miscellaneous Report of Public Works Committee 1253 miscellaneous 1253 miscellaneous 1254 miscellaneous 1254 miscellaneous 1254 special adjournment Motion (by Senator Sir Kenneth Anderson) - by leave - agreed to: That the Senate at its rising adjourn till 2.30 p.m. tomorrow. 1254 bill Second Reading Debate resumed from 16 October (vide page 1241), on motion by Senator Cotton: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1254 JQR New South Wales LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - in reply - I now propose to reply to the remarks of the various senators. It was originally proposed that these four Bills should be dealt with jointly, and I think that has happened. At least it would appear to me to be so. 1 imagine therefore that the general arguments in relation to the Excise Tariff Bill, the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No. 1); the Diesel Fuel Tax Bill (No. 2) and the Customs Tariff Bill (No. 2) have been canvassed. I propose to reply accordingly on behalf of the Minister for Customs and Excise (Mr Chipp). I understand from what the Leader of the Opposition (Senator Murphy) said that we will vote on each Bill separately. Senator Bishopraised the point that the revenue raised from the excise on petrol should be spent on road building. My comment is that the excise is levied for general revenue purposes and it assists in meeting the overall financial commitments of the Commonwealth. Excise levied on petrol is similar to that levied on other commodities such as beer, spirits and tobacco products. If the principle suggested by Senator Bishop were followed to its logical conclusion, it could be assumed that revenue raised from beer excise should be spent on beer drinkers. This would raise the problem as to how that could be achieved practically. Senator Lauckewas very concerned about the excise on wine and said that it would adversely affect the wine and grape growing industries. The Government will be watching very closely the effects of this increased excise on those industries, lt is felt that the moderate excise that has been imposed should not dampen consumption. Sales are continually rising at a very strong rate, despite several industry price rises. Let me give a couple of examples. For instance, the price of port and sherry in South Australia has risen by 17c a bottle and the price of claret by 45c a bottle in the last 4 years. The price of claret has increased by almost 100 per cent, and during this period sales have increased by over 331/3 per cent. The Government is well aware of the importance of the wine and grape growing industries. This is evidenced by the concessional rate of excise that has been accorded to brandy, compared with other spirits, since 1954. The excise charged per proof gallon of brandy is S3 less than for other spirits. Senator Lauckealso said that the final price effect on wine is nearly double the amount of excise duty payable. The duty is 50c a gallon, which is equivalent to just over 8c a bottle, but the retail price has risen by 15c a bottle and 45c for a half gallon flagon. No explanation has been given by the industry for this rise. We can only assume that the major part of the price increase above 8c a bottle is an increase in the profit margin to wholesalers and retailers. It is interesting to compare this with the petrol industry where the excise has been increased by 3c per gallon and the price has increased by exactly the same amount. Senator ArnoldDrury raised the point that the excise applies to mineral turpentine and kerosene used for heating purposes. It is noted that the duty is applicable only when the product is used as fuel in motor vehicles. Speaking for myself, I do not know of any vehicle ever running on mineral turpentine. I can recall in the latter years of the war trying without success to run an old Buick utility on kerosene, but that is merely by way of comment. Another point raised by Senator Drury was that the Government is considering a provision to delay the payment of excise on wine. What the Government is presently considering is a periodical settlement of duty, and a decision can be expected on this fairly shortly. Senator Poysermentioned that the Government has increased the level of indirect luxation. I point out that under the last Labor Government in 1948-49 the ratio of indirect taxation to total tax collected was 42.4 per cent. However, in the year 1970-71 the ratio is expected to be 35.4 per cent. Therefore, receipts attributable to indirect taxation currently are 7 per cent less in this year of grace, 21 years later, than they were in 1948-49. The honourable senator also queried why an excise instead of a sales tax was imposed on wine. Excise, I am informed, is the traditional way of taxing alcoholic beverages. If sales tax had been decided upon it would have had to be imposed within the existing sales tax structure at the rate of 21 per cent, 15 per cent or 27J per cent, and there would have been less flexibility in determining the rate of tax. In addition, the incidence of tax could be higher than excise, particularly on better quality wines. Imported wines already were liable to sales tax as well as customs duty prior to the Budget whereas Australian wines were not taxable. If sales tax had been imposed on Australian wines, there would have been a reduction in the protection afforded Australian wines. We, as a government, thought that was not desirable. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 22 Majority . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee The Bill. 1256 1L5 New South Wales Leader of the Opposition 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The Opposition wishes to oppose this Bill in its entirety at the Committee stage; but we desire to give those who have indicated their concern at and opposition to the inclusion of various items in the Bill the opportunity to support their view by their vote. Therefore it is intended by us to move that the Committee make certain requests. These have been divided as a matter of convenience into 3 requests. The first one deals with cigarettes and tobacco, in which case the request will be moved by Senator Keeffe; the second deals with diesel fuel, which is item 11, and that will be moved by Senator Bishop; and the one concerning what might be roughly described as the wine industry will be moved by Senator Drury. 1256 KPG Queensland 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - I refer to page 3 of the scheduled amendments of the Schedule to the principal Act and move: That the House of Representatives be requested to leave out the proposed amendments to items 6, 7 and 8 on the schedule. I do not want to take up the time of the Committee with a lengthly discussion on this matter. We have already canvassed all the points fairly adequately. This is a matter of very great importance to Queensland, which is the major tobacco producing State in the Commonwealth. Nor do I want to go into the medical reasons as to whether people should smoke or the effects on people of smoking. I do not think an increase of the rate of excise will have any effect one way or the other on whether a person smokes. However, we think this tax is improper and that it should be dealt with in the manner I have suggested. Question put: That the requests be agreed to. The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator Bull) 22 24 Majority . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 1257 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - 1 move: That the House of Representatives be requested to leave out the proposed amendments to Item 11. The request of the Opposition is very clear and is not answered as simply as the Minister has answered it. The established arguments have been put by organisations which for many years have represented the transport industry. The Opposition believes that an examination is necessary to ensure that the huge amounts collected through excise on fuels used by transport vehicles are returned in part to the industry to aid it, not particularly in relation to mechanisation but in relation to road planning. Consideration has been given to these well established grounds. They are also applicable to aviation fuel. The transport industry is already suffering great disabilities because of the situation of transportation in Australia. 1257 KPK Victoria 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I support the request of Senator Bishop. The increased excise on petrol and diesel fuel has really amazed me. Three or 4 months ago, before this increase occurred, the oil companies increased the price of petrol. Now the Government has increased the excise by 3c a gallon and the price has gone up again. If my memory is correct transport represents about 19 per cent of the cost of goods manufactured in this country. This percentage is not as high as it is in some other countries of the world, but it is among the highest. I appreciate that in Australia we have to cover vast distances, and that the percentage of motor vehicle ownership to the population is much higher than in most countries. I understand that the percentage of ownership is higher in Detroit, San Francisco and Washington. The last figures supplied to me were that in Canberra there is 1 car to every 2.75 people, and in Victoria there is 1 car to every 3.25 people. Those figures were given to me some time ago. I do not have with me the relevant notes but I think that is what I was informed. It seems to me that every time the Government wants to raise additional revenue it turns to the motorist. It does not affect the oil companies. One would not expect it to, particularly in view of the approaching elections. Anybody who thinks that this Government would take action that would affect the oil companies has not been long in politics. If one could get hold of details of donations that have been made to the political funds of various parties they might make most interesting reading. 1257 KUD 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McManus - You will not get theirs. 1258 K3R 0 0 BYRNE, Condon Senator Byrne - We pay more for our sugar, for that matter. 1258 K3R 0 0 BYRNE, Condon Senator Byrne - We have to support the industry. 1258 K3R 0 0 BYRNE, Condon Senator Byrne - We could have- 1259 JQR New South Wales LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - Mr Chairman, essentially Senator Kennelly is talking about the burden of indirect taxation as compared with direct taxation. I do not think he is saying that the Australian Government ought not to raise revenue for the various purposes and services that the Australian people require. I do not think he has made a case suggesting that any particular service ought to be cut down. Me has directed himself to a consideration of indirect taxation, in which area this particular burden falls. In reply to Senator Poyser, I wish to indicate what has happened in the last 21 years. I point out that in 1970-71 the ratio of indirect taxation to total taxation collected by this Government will be 35.4 per cent whereas in 1948-49 - what F might call the last year of a Socialist economy as distinct from a market economy - it was 42.4 per cent. It will be seen thai the burden of indirect tax on the Australian people, expressed as a proportion, has fallen over the last 21 years. The receipts of the Commonwealth from a combination of customs duty, excise duty and sales tax in 1949-50 were 33.8 per cent of the total; in 1970-71 they will be 31.3 per cent of the total. So in the life of this Government and governments of a similar complexion - market economy governments, to describe them in simple terms - there has been a strong tendency for the ratio of indirect taxation to decline. 1259 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop - They were postwar years. 1259 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator Kennelly - Do you have figures relating to the work force then and the work force now? 1259 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator Kennelly - No, of course. Therefore you have no idea of what direct taxes were collected in 1948-49 as against 1969-70. The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator Bull) 22 24 Majority . . . , 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative.. 1260 JXX South Australia 0 0 DRURY, Arnold Senator DRURY - On behalf of the Opposition I move: That the House of Representatives be requested to leave out Ihe proposed amendment to Item 16. 1 do so for these reasons: The wine industry, as was pointed out in the Budget speech, is a profitable industry. This was mentioned by Senator Kennelly a few moments ago. It will be seen from the Budget speech of the Treasurer (Mr Bury) that because this industry has become a profitable industry the Government has seen fit to impose this tax of 50c a gallon. The wine industry is very important to South Australia, as has been pointed out by myself, by other members on this side of the chamber and also by Government members who have spoken about this tax. 1 feel that the Government is doing the industry a disservice by imposing this tax of 50c a gallon on locally produced wine. 1260 K1F Victoria 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - I rise on this matter because in his reply to the second reading debate the Minister for Civil Aviation (Senator Cotton) suggested that the increased revenue could not be gathered by the imposition of a sales tax because certain sales tax rates already exist on other items. 1 thought the Minister was being facetious. Surely it is not beyond the ingenuity of the Minister, the Department of Customs and Excise or the Draftsman to introduce some kind of legislation which would bring an additional sales tax rale into the existing schedules. It is quite obvious that the present increase in the price of wines, particularly the Australian wines, will affect the industry directly. There must be some buyer resistance. Clip joints and restaurants are charging an extra 30c or 40c for a bottle of table wine, but the increase due to the imposition of the tax is only about 8c. If the tax were imposed as a sales tax there would be no excuse for people all along the line adding on to it, as they have done on this occasion. This has not happened with the tax on cigarettes and petrol. The growers have not been responsible for the increase. The people from the bottom up to the clip joints I mentioned a moment ago have taken this opportunity to fleece the people. In the long term this must have a detrimental effect on producers. I think it is a very lame excuse for a Minister to say that the Government could not introduce a sales tax because it would have to be within certain existing categories. The machinery is available to the Government to alter the sales tax legislation in any way at any time. I believe that the suggestion which I have put forward would have been the most equitable way in which to impose this tax. 1260 JQR New South Wales LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - Senator Poyser has my assurance that I was in no way attempting to be facetious in my reply to him. I was giving the reply which was provided to me by the Department of Customs and Excise. I have been informed that the advice given to the Department of Customs and Excise by the Department of the Treasury was that this revenue would be best collected in this form and not in the form suggested by Senator Poyser. The honourable senator has my assurance that I was not being facetious in my reply to him. However, I shall now be facetious and say that 1 am never facetious about such a thing as drinking wine. Question put - That the House of Representives be requested to leave out the proposed amendment to Item 16 (Senator Drury's request). The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator Bull) 22 24 Majority . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Bill agreed to. Bill reported without requests; report adopted. Third Reading Motion (by Senator Cotton) proposed: That the Bill be now read a third time. 1261 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The Opposition has voted against this Bill at every stage up till now. The Opposition has given every opportunity during the Committee stages of this Bill to those who want to support the wine or tobacco industries or, in fact, to support the whole of industry by opposing the fuel tax to do so by voting against these items. The Opposition opposes the motion for the third reading of this Bill because it considers that this legislation is inflationary and unfair.In the Opposition's opinion it is of no credit to those who have supported the Government so far on this measure. The Opposition will vote against the motion for the third reading of this Bill in order to give these people a final chance to act on behalf of the interests of not only the industries to which I have referred but also the ordinary citizens and their families by voting to defeat this measure. Question put: That the Bill be now read a third time. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 22 Majority . . - . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. 1261 miscellaneous 1262 bill 1262 Bills Second Readings Debate resumed from 14 October (vide page 1088), on motions by Senator Cotton: That the Bills be now read a second time. 1262 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - The Opposition opposes the legislation because it is a part of the Budget proposal which increases the rate of tax on diesel fuel. Consequently we will take the same action in relation to thse Bills as we took in relation to the first Bill. Question put: That the Bills be now read a second time. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 22 Majority . . . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bills read a second time. In Committee The Bills. 1262 KPK Victoria 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I am amazed at the attitude of certain members of the Senate. I thought that if any members would oppose the increase in the tax on diesel fuel it would by my colleagues in the corner. I am amazed to think that they sit so meekly and quietly without raising an objection. 1262 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - If you studied your books you would realise that we are quite content with the situation. 1262 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - I rise to a point of order. I wonder whether it could be drawn to the attention of the honourable senator that tax is not paid on diesel fuel used in tractors. The CHAIRMAN (Senator Bull)Order! There is no substance in the point of order. 1263 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - Not the left wing. 1263 CAK 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator Rae - Is it? 1263 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator Webster - The tax applies to tractors used at Albert Park but not those used up in the bush. 1263 KUS Queensland 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - 1 rise to voice sentiments similar to those expressed by Senator Kennelly. I am amazed that the members of the Australian Country Party should be so silent on this issue. It may be that they say it will not affect individual farmers. That is open to debate. It must affect individual farmers because, to start with, it will affect local authorities. Of course, local authorities can raise their revenue only by raising their taxes. Let us take, for example, the case nf the Brisbane City Council. The Brisbane City Council is a local authority which has a budget higher than that of the State of Tasmania. Consequently, its diesel fuel bill will be increased out of all proportions as a result of this legislation. From which source are the administrators of the Brisbane City Council to recoup the money that they expend in that direction? Obviously they will have to charge additional rates or taxes on the people of Brisbane. The self-same argument can be advanced in relation to every local authority in Australia which will have to pay the additional tax on diesel fuel. In these circumstances it is an inescapable fact that people not only in the metropolitan areas but also in the. country areas will suffer as a result of this legislation. It always appears to me to be incongruous that local authorities have not raised their voice in demanding that they have a seat on the Australian Loan Council so that they may have a direct say on some of these issues. We oppose the Bill. We think that it will have an adverse effect on all sections of the community. Although it may bring money into the coffers of the Treasury it will take money out of the pockets of tha people of Australia. 1263 JQR New South Wales LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - During the debate on the Excise Tariff Bill Senator Kennelly sought some information about the saving to Australian revenue if crude oil were not imported. Naturally the amount fluctuates from year to year and it is very hard to calculate it into the future. The best that we could get for Senator Kennelly is that in 1971 the refining of indigenous crude oil in lieu of imported crude oil will effect a saving of approximately $230m. I state that with due apology for the fact that the figures are not all that easy to arrive at because we are working with a certain set of unknowns but, as 1 have said, that is the nearest that we can get. The general comments of honourable senators on diesel fuel have been listened to with some care. I think it has been acknowledged by honourable senators on both sides that diesel fuel for farm machinery is not subject to duty and that only 20 per cent of all diesel fuel is subject to duty. I have nothing further to add. This is a revenue raising exercise, as mentioned earlier, in the indirect tax field. The reason for raising the revenue is to apply it to the purposes outlined in the Commonwealth Budget. Bills agreed to. Bills reported without requests; report adopted. Third Reading Motion (by Senator Cotton) put: That the Bills be now read a third time. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 22 Majority . . . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bills read a third time. CUSTOMS TARIFF BILL (No. 2) 1970 Second Reading Debate resumed from 14 October (vide page 1088), on motion by Senator Cotton: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1264 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - This is the fourth of the related Bills. The Opposition's arguments have been put already. We intend to oppose the legislation at the second reading stage and at the third reading stage. Question put: That the Bill be now read a second time. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 22 Majority . . 2 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time. In Committee The Bill. 1264 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - The Opposition does not intend to vote against this Bill at the Committee stage but does intend to divide the Senate at the third reading stage. Bill agreed to. Bill reported without requests; report adopted. Third Reading Motion (by Senator Cotton) proposed: That the Bill be now read a third time. 1265 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - The Opposition is opposed to this Bill which is an ancillary to the other Bills. It is completely inflationary, and unnecessarily so. Along with the other measures proposed by the Government, it will cause a further bout of inflation. We see no justification whatever for it. We believe that the support of these measures by individuals on the Government side and members of the Australian Democratic Labor Patry, who are supporting the Government on this whole series of measures, brings no credit to them. It means that people have been speaking outside this chamber about protecting the family man, about protecting industry against inflation and about protecting the whole of the community, yet inside this chamber the Government is proposing measures which will injure the family man, injure industry and be bad for Australia and those measures are being supported by members of the Australian Country Party, who profess to be against this kind of thing, as well as by individual members of the Liberal Party, and they are also being supported by the members of the Democratic Labor Party who are present. We did not stop the passage of the Bill at every stage including the Committee stage, but we propose to vote against and to divide the Senate on this motion for the third reading. 1265 KUD Victoria 0 0 MCMANUS, Francis Senator McMANUS - I would not have spoken except for the kind reference that was made by Senator Murphy to the members of my Party. I thought that the election campaign was to open on the 28th of this month. It appears that it has opened here today. 1 have been listening to references to a whole series of measures for which the Australian Labor Party is taking great credit unto itself. What interests me is that the ALP is prepared to vote against the Budget to save the wine drinkers and it is prepared to vote against the Budget to save the tobacco smokers, but it did not vote against the Budget for the sake of the pensioners. All it moved in the case of the pensioners was a mild and gentle rebuke of the Government. What I wonder is: What does the tobacco industry have, what does the wine industry have and what do all these other industries have that the pensioners do not have? If a Labor government were in office I would expect the Labor Party to go to the barricades for the pensioners. But in this case the pensioners run about tenth in the field. There were 9 or more other issues on which the Labor Party thought it was advisable to vote against the Budget, but the pensioners were left for dead. One could not have shot them with a rifle because they were so far down the field. What is being said by the ALP is that we should vote against this and this and this. We have already taken action in regard to the receipts tax. The Government has to supply another$80m. We suggested that the taxation reductions that were made should not have been made and that that money should have been used for the pensioners and all the other good people. But we did not receive any support from the Australian Labor Party. Its trade union supporters demanded the tax cuts. So, we did not. receive any support on those issues. We are supposed to be a bit responsible.If we defeated all the measures that the ALP wants to defeat, the Government would not have enough money to pay the parliamentary salaries. I can understand why some honourable senators have become so white-faced. I hope that we are acting a little more responsibly. As I have said, we have all been in this game for a long time. I do not mind Senator Murphy doing a little bit of Senate electioneering. 1265 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I would not have entered this debate had it not been for the favourable remarks of Senator McManus of the Democratic Labor Party who can see some ulterior motive in the action of the Labor Party on this question. 1 think the attitude of the Australian Labor Party has been made quite clear. In speaking to the amendments every Labor Party speaker has condemned the small increases that were granted to pensioners and has agreed that the increase granted to pensioners was not enough. The question on which we voted in relation to pensions was whether the payment of increased pensions would be approved. No-one has suggested the pensioners have been given a fair deal. On every possible occasion members of the Australian Labor Party have criticised the Government for creating and preserving pockets of poverty throughout Australia. Tt has been suggested that there has been an attempt to use these taxation measures for election purposes, but I suggest that the plight of pensioners will be one of the main issues in the Senate election campaign. We recognise that there is a need for an additional payment to pensioners and for help in other areas of poverty throughout Australia. Senator McManussuggested that if we oppose all taxation there will not be enough revenue to enable the Government to pay the politicians. Our proposal is that there should be a readjustment of taxation. Although we were not opposed to a reduction in income tax if an increase was given to pensioners, we believe that there should be a rearrangement of taxation schedules so that the tax reduction will be more equitable than that proposed in the Budget. The suggestion is that we are opposing these measures for electioneering purposes, but. as Senator Murphy has said, every individual member of this Senate has had an opportunity to vote against each item in these measures and many have refused to do so. It has been said that we are in favour of wine drinkers. We are much concerned with the wine industry in South Australia and New South Wales. 1266 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I also enter this debate because T interpret Senator McManus' remarks as a challenge to members of the Australian Labor Party. For the last 5 years I have listened to members of the Democratic Labor Party arguing that the Australian Labor Party was obsessed with some limited social questions relating to pensioners and that we acted as though we were still living in the 1920s. Honourable senators opposite talk about liberty and people on the streets acting against the law, but the whole problem is that the Budget has been made into a mockery by the middle man who has been raking off his profits. Senator Cavanagh and other Opposition senators have dealt adequately with the wine industry. Because a person receiving an average income enjoys the so-called luxury of being able to purchase a bottle of wine, it does not mean that he is living it up. Government supporters have argued about the trade union movement and its attempt to gain better conditions, but the Government's Attorney-General's Department does not have the courage to prosecute Cahills Restaurants and other similar businesses because of their activities and because they bludge on the community. Senator Greenwood who is now trying to interject is a protagonist of big business, as he proved the other night in the debate on the Lighthouses Bill. The Government expects respect of law and order, yet it increases taxation in this way. In the case of the wine industry every bottle of wine will attract a further 5c in excise. Honourable senators opposite talk about helping primary industry, but they do nothing about the profiteering by big business in this instance. A similar situation applies in regard to the tobacco industry. I am a non-smoker, but surely to goodness no-one would deny to the trade unionist who works in the foundry the right to have a cigarette at lunch time. Yet the trade unionist, who is eulogised by Government supporters, will have to pay more for his cigarette. It is not of much use the Australian Council of Trade Unions securing wage increases because inevitably there follows the erosion of those increases by means such as those exemplified in this Budget. Coming back to the reference by Senator McManus, he knows that the only way to solve the social welfare problem is through the concept of a national welfare scheme. During the campaign for the last House of Representatives election we propounded this concept and that is why we gained 17 seats. This is why in the next Senate election when we go out on to the hustings we will be condemning the Gorton Government for failing to do anything worth while. The Government has flunked the situation with regard to health and it has flunked it also in relation to medical services. Government supporters cry crocodile tears about the equity of members of the Australian Medical Association, but what happens when an individual is diddled out of his equity in the hospital and medical funds? There is nothing in the Commonwealth health regulations about consumer protection. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 24 0 Majority . . . . 3 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a third time. Sitting suspended from 5.48 to 8 p.m. 1268 bill Second Reading Debate resumed from 15 October (vide page 1 1 68), on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1268 JZB New South Wales 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - The Australian Labor Party supports this Bill. The Sheltered Employment (Assistance) Act was first introduced in 1967 by the Government which deserves much credit for it. Like the Minister for Social Services (Mr Wentworth), I pay tribute to the voluntary organisations which commenced sheltered workshops back in the early 1950s in order to help handicapped persons in our community. As we know, much progress has been made since that time. This Bill extends the 1967 Sheltered Employment (Assistance) Act in 3 ways. Firstly, it extends the $2 for $1 subsidy towards the capital cost of accommodation for disabled persons in normal industry. Secondly, it provides for a training fee of $500 to be paid to a sheltered workshop organisation where a former employee who is disabled to the extent required for invalid pension purposes graduates to normal employment and is able to retain such employment for a period of 12 months. Thirdly, it provides payment of a $1 for $1 subsidy towards the salary costs incurred by sheltered workshop organisations in the employment of persons to provide special supervision, medical guidance, counselling, social work or other services for their disabled workers in accordance with the final provisions contained in the Bill. This is a most commendable proposal and it meets with the support of parliamentarians and organisations assisting the handicapped throughout Australia. Like many other honourable senators, I have seen the tremendous grit and determination of men and women in sheltered workshops. Centre Industries in New South Wales is one of the advanced establishments in this field. I know that many honourable senators have visited sheltered workshops in their own States. I have had the privilege of seeing some of them and in particular I have seen that of Centre Industries. Like others who have seen that establishment, I returned from that visit feeling a very humble person. I saw courageous people of both sexes, many with little movement in their limbs or body, working on machines and producing goods which are sold on the competitive market. Every credit must be given to them and to the organisations and other people associated with the tremendous work and activity of these unfortunate people. I have with me a copy of the brochure given to people who attend Centre Industries. We who are physically able to work in industry and other fields must feel very humble when we look at the photos in this brochure of the people doing this work. I am pleased to know, Mr Deputy President, that the trade union movement is assisting and co-operating in this work. It is of the utmost importance that governments and trade unions be ever watchful to see that no-one in these workshops is ever used as cheap labour or is ever exploited. These unfortunate people must not be exploited in any way. now or in the future. I am pleased to say that in the more than 100 sheltered workshops which now employ about 4,206 handicapped people, according to the June statistics, no-one is being exploited. Exploitation does not exist but I feel that this matter must be watched very carefully. Thre are several aspects of this Bill which I and my Party would like to see extended. This matter must be approached with sympathy and understanding. While appreciating the rights now given to invalid pensioners to earn $10 a week under the tapered means test, I feel there is an injustice in that when any amount earned - I say, earned the hard way because I have seen how some of these unfortunate people earn their money- over and above $10 in a sheltered workshop the pension is reduced at the rate of 50c for every $1. That is what happens at the moment. A single invalid pensioner who receives $15.50 a week - the full pension without supplementary allowance - is allowed to earn a maximim of only $10 a week before the means test operates. This means that the total amount that can be earned is $25.50. A married invalid pensioner couple without children receive $27.50 a week but less if the wife is in receipt of a wife's allowance. They can earn $17, making a total of $44.50 before the means test applies. This has to keep 2 people. We must remember that these people have to live. They have to feed and clothe themselves and to pay board and lodgings. The Opposition asks for the abolition of the means test for those employed in sheltered workshops. We ask that this Bill be amended in that way. We hope the Minister will heed our request in this respect. The Australian Labor Party, when it becomes the Government, will go further than this so far as the abolition of the means test is concerned. However, at present we are asking only that the Bill be adjusted in this way. Surely this small added incentive could be given to these people. It would cost little but would mean a great deal. According to the figures of the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics for the period ending in June, there were 133,766 people in receipt of invalid pensions. Only 4,206 were employed in sheltered workshops and very, very few of them received anything like $10 a week. This is not a new approach. I ask the Minister to adopt the same policy for accepted or recognised employees in sheltered workshops as that adopted in respect of blind workers; that is to abolish the means test. It has been said that ex-servicemen are not subject to the means test in certain respects. 1270 JTT South Australia 0 0 DAVIDSON, Gordon Senator DAVIDSON - By the very nature of a measure such as this incidents and anomalies occur, all of which seem to be crying out for some form of rectification. So it is only natural that, when Senator Fitzgerald rose to indicate support of the measure before the Senate tonight, he would find, as we all find, areas in which we feel a Government measure of this kind might be extended in order to render not only further aid but also aid that is peculiar and necessary to a particular group of handicapped people. Neverthless, I think it should be said that, when the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) presented this Bill to the Senate and made her second reading speech, in substance it represented yet another progressive step in dealing with the issues - whether they be social, vocational or economic issues - that arise and live in the world of handicapped people. I use the word 'progressive' advisedly. Honourable senators will recall receiving from the Department of Social Services a book which referred to the developments in social services over a fair period of time- from 1949 to 1970. The book referred to the implementation of the Sheltered Employment (Assistance) Act in May 1967. When it was introduced it enabled subsidies to be paid to churches, approved voluntary welfare organisations and local governing bodies towards the cost of new sheltered workshops, extensions or alterations to existing workshops or rental for 3 years where rented premises were used to provide sheltered employment. A number of other phrases denoting assistance are used. The Bill now before us is yet a further step in general Government assistance to this area of need. Even as we talk about and discover fresh areas of need I do not think we should forget that, in an exercise of this kind, not only is the Government exerting a measure of considerable sympathy for those people who are at this kind of disadvantage but also it is standing with that fine and dedicated group of people to whom Senator Fitzgerald referred and who in one form or another either manage the organisations or care for disabled people in one manner or other. Therefore it is necessary for the Government to lay down certain criteria not only to ensure that its money is being well spent but also to ensure that those in the greatest need get the greatest assistance. In the sheltered workshop programme issued by the Department of Social Services there is a summary of the main requirements which organisations must meet or agree to meet before assistance will be provided. Amongst other things, the organisation should have proper management and a board of management which is representative of appropriate interests in the community. The organisation should have a full time manager or administrator. There are provisions for the payment to disabled workers according to the work which they perform, as well as a number of other provisions. With this background we reach a situation tonight in which we have before us a Bill, the purpose of which is to extend and to make even more effective the Government's interest in and programme of assistance to sheltered workshops. Honourable senators will recall that there were 3 particular emphases in the Bill. One of them referred to a subsidy towards the capital cost of accommodation for disabled persons who were able to work in normal industry. A second referred to the payment of a training fee in respect to persons placed in normal employment by a sheltered workshop organisation. A third referred to the subsidising of the salaries of certain staff members who are engaged in sheltered workshop management activities, lt seems to' me that the developments which the Government has brought forward by way of this Bill not only meet the immediate needs as far as sheltered workshops are concerned but also provide - I think very wisely and 1 hope effectively - for the further steps which will ultimately have to be taken. The proposals which we have in front of us tonight will provide the starting point for the further measures which may become necessary in the future. Honourable senators will recall that in her second reading speech the Minister for Housing drew attention to the fact that the effectiveness at the Government's assistance could be gauged by the fact that the granting of assistance to more than 100 sheltered workshops employing an estimated 5,000 handicapped people has been approved. These workshops are now producing goods worth S5m a year. Government assistance to the extent of almost $5m has been granted to workshop organisations during the past 3 years. It may be argued thai this is a small sum when compared to the number of institutions throughout Australia. In this respect I think we must pay tribute to the organisations involved in the field of sheltered workshops which have contributed $2m towards the cost of running them. [ believe that we should all place on record our tribute to those people who work with the mentally handicapped for their sympathy, care, understanding and knowledge of the physically and intellectually handicapped in the work which they do and for the interest which they take in the sheltered workshops and the concern which they express on behalf of handicapped people. The Bill which is now before the Senate represents not only, as 1 said earlier, a progressive stage in the care of mentally handicapped people but also, as I recall the Minister describing it, the second stage of Commonwealth assistance. The Bill is designed to provide aid in 3 specific areas in which financial help is needed. In doing so it recognises the community service which organisations are providing in this special and necessary field of assistance for disabled people. Having said that, I think it is important to refer for a few moments to what I will call the peculiar circumstances of sheltered workshops. I believe that in doing so not only will the Government's role at this point of time, as it is expressed in this Bill, be more appreciated but also, and more particularly, the change in and the increasing needs of the sheltered workshops will be better understood. Those who work in such workshops are people who cannot work in the ordinary way as we understand it. They cannot work in an ordinary office or factory. However, under the terms of the assistance which will be provided by this Bill, as well as the assistance which has already been provided, these people will have an opportunity to become not only productive members of the community but also people who are able to live lives that are satisfactory to themselves and certainly to those people to whom they belong. To the world of industry it may be said that sheltered workshops are something quite different. The members of a sheltered workshop may be described as a labour force which a telephone call can organise or as a permanent group looking for contract work. Honourable senators will be familiar with the magazine Impetus'. The superintendent of workshops of the Foundation of the Disabled, Mr John Mott, in the July issue of Impetus' summed up the people who work in the sheltered workshops in this way: They save ordinary factory managers from having to plan and supervise work; if they tell me what has to be done and hand me the bits and pieces they can forget about it until the delivery date for the completed job. Because contracts are carried out on our premises, it saves outside factory space that can be diverted to other production. All our workers are trained and some of the intellectually handicapped people do a better job on tedious repetitive work than normal people. By being on immediate call we often provide a customer with a means of getting a high quality job done on work that may be uneconomical in his own factory. While that may be true, I think I should say at the same time that sheltered workshops must never be considered in any way whatsoever as being a source of cheap labour nor should they ever be regarded as instrumentalities of price cutting. The workers in the sheltered workshops may be handicapped but the organisations which run them certainly are not. They compete on the open market. They meet the terms of their contracts and carry out their business in a proper way. The point is that sheltered workshops are not charities, although they may well be organised and operated by .what we regard as charitable organisations. As an officer of a sheltered workshop once commented, the only charity in them begins in the workshop and ends at the door. Outside it is business as usual. The normal standards have to be met and the normal contracts fulfilled in the ordinary way. That being the case, additional care must be given in order that the terms of business can be undertaken and the contracts fulfilled. Therefore the accommodation issue, as it is described in the Bill and for which the Bill provides, is a good step in the Government's progressive programme of assistance to these people. Proper and suitable accommodation, arranged through the terms of the measure which is before us, is not only of great benefit to these people but also the knowledge that it exists and can be obtained and will continue to be available is surely a source of great comfort and security to the families of the handicapped people and those who have a personal concern for them as well as to the handicapped people themselves. The proposed amendment of section 9 of the Principal Act will mean that all existing and future subsidised hostels will be able to offer accommodation to eligible disabled persons regardless of whether they are working in a sheltered workshop or in normal employment. The second feature of the Bill refers to the payment of a training fee to a sheltered workshop organisation employing the . type of employee to whom I made reference at the beginning of my remarks. The third section of the Bill refers to the subsidising of the salaries of staff members who perform special roles, such as supervision, counselling, medical attention and other similar areas of activity. I believe that the chief value of this programme of assistance is that it is a self help exercise. lt has been particularly designed to help people to help themselves so that they not only become productive members of our society but also, as I said earlier, feel a sense of dignity and a sense of satisfaction at being able to live a creative life and to respond to creative opportunities. This Bill does not provide all the answers to the problems nor do we yet know all the questions because this is an area which is changing in style and. I regret to say, need. It is also changing in terms of the fact that there seems to be an increasing number of people in our society who are disabled and require this kind of assistance. The increase in numbers is due to the fact that, unfortunately, more and more people are finding themselves disabled as a result of injury or an accident. Whilst the measure which is before the Senate tonight is a fine measure which is designed to help those people who are restricted in this way, I should point out that the Government as well as the people of Australia must never forget that the causes of accidents also have to be tackled. The Government must not only increase its research activities but also the people of Australia must increase their concern about finding a means to preserve the precious elements of life as well as to help the shattered remains of a disabled life. The Bill deals with measures to provide assistance for physically and mentally handicapped people, which is a description which we all understand. But it may be that in another context at some period of lime some consideration might be given to sheltered workshops for people who work more slowly than other people and who also take longer to do things than the rest of us but whose only cause of this is the fact that they are old and advanced in years. I have been reading that projects in the United States have been industrially and socially successful by drawing older people into the work force of the nation and into the productive world. The difficulty is that in older years people work at their own pace and at a slower pace which they can match with ability and with their own enthusiasm. This same area of response applies in the sphere of disabled people. But in dealing with the needs of the community the first and greatest needs must be met first. Like other honourable senators in their various States 1 have been interested to read and see something of the work of sheltered workshops in my State of South Australia. All South Australian members will be familiar with Bedford Industries which run 2 workshops. The Mentally Retarded Children's Society runs 3 workshops at Unley, Brompton and Kent Town. A group known as the Heritage Sheltered Workshop operates at Mount Gambier and the well known Phoenix Society has its workshop at Torrensville. When the Minister has the opportunity of speaking on this Bill I would be pleased if she could obtain some further details of the declared South Australian segment of workshop premises and grants approved in 1969-70 as set out on page 37 of the Social Services Annual Report for 1969-70. This is a matter of personal and State interest and is added only as a comment in the discussion of the Bill. I return to the measure which is before us and note with appreciation the publications which the Department of Social Services issues in the interest of sheltered workshops, not only by way of information but also to encourage us and to let us know exactly what the Government is doing in this sphere, lt is also pertinent to comment that the Government departments issue such fine publications as the National Fitness Report. If ever there was a challenge to the community of Australia to keep itself physically and nationally fit it is the volumes that are put out telling us not only what is being done and what is available but also calling to mind the terrible price people who are disabled pay and the great needs which those same people have. As I said at the beginning, the Government measure which is before the Senate tonight is one of a series of progressive steps dealing with this very urgent and changing problem. In commending the measure I ask the Government to take all possible steps to improve the services as the years go by, not only in the field of care but also in the field of prevention. 1273 K3R Queensland 0 0 BYRNE, Condon Senator BYRNE - The rationale of the measure now before the Senate is substantially a display of solicitude for those unfortunate people who are handicapped in the community in one way or another. Over the years the implementation of this type of thinking in the extension of the services which have been provided is extremely commendable. I would be in the forefront of those commending the Government for the extension which is provided in this measure. But while I say that is the rationale of the provisions which we are discussing 1 think another aspect of the matter should receive some consideration. We are living in an increasingly material age, an age of increasing technology where very often it is the technocrat, rather impersonal and sometimes unsentimental, who is called upon to discharge many of the things in this society which make it viable and workable. In such a society it is quite possible that a person who because of physical or mental handicap is unable to match his or her pace to the pace of modern society soon finds himself completely socially discarded. When I say 'socially discarded' I do not mean socially discarded in any sense that they are treated with contempt but" that they are laid aside from the stream of social life. Nothing is more disastrous than for that to happen. It is bad enough when it happens by the ordinary process of years. Due to the onset of years and the approach of retiring age those who are interested and active in their work in the community find themselves placed on one side and so, very quickly, one finds an erosion of the will and desire to contribute. The ordinary recreations of leisure time no longer satisfy the demands of the person and one finds a physical, mental and social deterioration. Society is setting its face in many ways against that invevitable process. By training and re-training for the post-retirement period an attempt is being made socially to equip these people so that as retiring ages become earlier and sometimes people retire at the peak of their mental and physical powers they are then still equipped to discharge different though still valuable functions in the community. In this area of social concern we are dealing with those who have not had an opportunity by normal physical or mental endowmnent to make their contribution. Therefore they may discover at the very beginning of what could be their working life a situation which faces most people, at worst, at the conclusion of their working life and the period of their social contribution. Both these situations create severe economic problems in the community. With the concept of the welfare state and the accent on government solicitude for those in their retirement, sickness and situations like that, an increasingly heavy burden is placed on the Budget, the taxpayer and the work force. If the area of dependence is to be unduly increased then there is going to be a limit on the capacity of the work force to sustain it and certainly to support it at an increasing level of benefit. Therefore it is most important that in areas where it is possible the work force be maintained and the period of dependence on the income of the community be reduced as far as possible consonant with a man having the opportunity of retirement and leisure should he wish. This Bill operates in that area. This is an attempt not only prompted by charity and solicitude for the unfortunate but also having the effect of keeping in the work force and bringing into the work force those who otherwise would not be participants. I think this is a most important social and economic consideration. If I have read the Minister's second reading speech correctly these implications have not been spelt out specifically though, of course, they are implicit in the whole of the programme and the whole of the approach. I do not think any speaker whom I have heard has particularly concentrated on this aspect. We must concede that perhaps il is the less sentimental and the less appealing aspect of the whole programme and yet it is an extremely valuable one. After ali, nothing is more soul destroying to a person who is physically handicapped but adequately mentally endowed than to feel almost from the beginning of what could be a working life that he is dependent. As 1 say, in a society which is today becoming increasingly technological a handicapped person is going to find himself at an increasing disability if he cannot be embraced within it. Strangely enough the technological society may make possible the employment of these good people who otherwise in a nontechnological society may not bc employable. There are limits to the skills - physical to a lesser extent, mental to a greater extent - which can be commanded by those who are physically or mentally handicapped. In a society which is dependent on what we might call crude labour use - that is the use and application of physical energy only- -it may not be possible to engage and employ many of these people. Because of the increasing sophistication of our industrial process, because there is a high level of automation and mechanisation, there are repetitive processes, perhaps simple processes, which are quite within the physical competence of those who otherwise would be unable to make a contribution. While these people if not employed could be the victims of the technological society, provided they are adequately trained the technological society could find accommodation for them whereas a simpler and more primitive society could not. Therefore, as we approach the passage of this Bill, let us welcome it as a further display by the Government - I am sure governments of all political complexions would follow this line and implement the legislation within the availability of our resources - of public solicitude which will have tremendous consequences in the personal, family and domestic lives of these people. Let us welcome it also as a demonstration by the Government of the contribution that these good people, properly trained, properly looked after, can make to the economic welfare of Australia, to enrich our society financially, in providing the very benefits which they are receiving, and in providing similar benefits for others. From all points of view this is a most important and most rewarding measure. As far as 1 can see, the three heads of the provisions of this Bill do cover the practical situations that arise. First of all, there is the provision of capital assistance for the accommodation of those who are not actually working in sheltered workshops but are employed in private industry. We know that one of the great psychological factors in rehabilitation or in the psychological sustenance of people is to let them operate in an area of social and economic normality so that they feel as little as possible that they are different from other sections of the community. If a person is able to live in hostel accommodation but is able to be employed in private industry out of a sheltered workshop, surely that is not only a contribution to the economic life of the community but also is a tremendous psychological contribution to the person himself. Of course, the training of these good people does bring certain problems in its wake in relation to the financing of the institutions, particularly when these institutions are non-governmental, non-public. As has been pointed out by the Minister, there is a loss to the skilled work force of trained workers. As these are commercial propositions they have to have a certain economic viability, and an attempt is being made here to recoup them when, having lost to private industry those whose skills they were able to provide they have to train new workers. Thirdly, there is a provision relating to the need to have particular counsellors and particular teachers to bring these handicapped people to the level of employable skill. For all these reasons this is a heart warming measure. Ultimately we will look at the consequences of these provisions from the standpoint of the economic contribution they make to the nation and to the welfare of the individual who will be the recipient of the benefits. The Australian Labor Party has very much pleasure in supporting this measure and commends the Minister and the Government for further extending the provisions of this type of legislation. 1275 KUS Queensland 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - Senator Fitzgerald has indicated that the Australian Labor Party offers no opposition to this amending Bill. He has outlined ways in which it could be improved. I know that the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Ranking) will take into consideration the thoughts that Senator Fitzgerald has expressed when discussing this matter with the Minister for Social Services (Mr Wentworth). I believe we have come a long way in rehabilitation of the disabled. If we trace its history we find that prior to 1954 rehabilitation was carried out in the most scattered areas, with no concerted effort. Since that time there has been a remarkable improvement. I like to believe that it is as a result of the International Labour Organisation discussing this important matter at its assembly in 1954. At that conference the Organisation laid down guidelines for the world as to what should happen in this field. The Commonwealth Department of Social Services has played its part remarkably well in all States. But there are people of public spirit who have taken unto themselves the task of doing something about this problem in a private capacity. People in Australia should pay a great tribute to those people. I am proud to be associated with an organisation concerned with the establishment of a sheltered workshop which hopes to raise a quarter of a million dollars to build premises at Eagle Farm. This is typical of what goes on throughout Australia. I repeat that 1 believe that impetus was given to the rehabilitation of the disabled as a result of the International Labour Organisation discussing and laying down a programme in 1954. The amending Bill has three principal features, to two of which I do not desire to address myself except to say that I do not know - perhaps the Minister could indicate this - how many people who work in sheltered workshops will be taking advantage of the accommodation provisions of the legislation. One provision awards a sheltered workshop $500 should any person in that workshop return to industry after 6 months. [ believe this creates an anomalous position. It is all very well to say that a workshop may train a person for 6 months or longer and then he goes into industry. What is to be the situation where the same sheltered workshop has trained, or endeavoured to train, somebody for 3, 4 or 5 years but that person is just incapable of being trained to a state of efficiency which will enable him to go into private employment? 1 think the Minister will see the anomaly that arises. Perhaps the Government will consider extending the relevant benefit to cases to which 1 have just referred. I know that the amending Bill provides that the amount may be paid at the discretion of the Minister in a lot of cases. I trust - I believe - that the Minister will exercise his discretion in favour of the sheltered workshop. Senator Davidsonreferred to the publication 'Impetus', and I also desire to refer to it. For the information of honourable senators 'Impetus' is Australia's magazine of manufacturing, an official publication of the Chamber of Manufactures of New South Wales. The following appears in the July 1970 issue of that publication: Rod Holmes is an executive with a big job. In himself he is a very little man indeed - running hot he barely measures four feet tall - but he has the support of some of the giants of Australian industry. Mr Holmes is in the electrical business in only a modest way, but his personal qualifications are formidable - as a student at East Sydney Technical College he topped the State 3 years in a row. But that's nol all: he is remarkable in one other way - nol one of his workers is complete in body and in brain. Rod Holmes is production supervisor in a sheltered workshop, an industrial operation where mcn and women work without legs, without hands, without eyes or ears, sometimes without much mind, lt is also an industrial operation which delivers the goods. Rod Holmes and a handful of men like him see to that. Comparatively few businessmen know anything about sheltered workshops; fewer realise that they can often fill a valuable role iti increasing profitability and productivity in outside industry. First, what is a sheltered workship? There are 99 of them in NSW; all of them nin as industrial undertakings rather than as charities. The workers in them are people who cannot work in an ordinary office or factory but in this way are given the opportunity to become productive members of the community. That is a fine tribute to Rod Holmes. II Rod Holmes were here I think he would say that he is only one of many people doing a similar job for the disabled in Australia. We should pay great tribute to those people who have banded together in an endeavour to help the less fortunate in life. For that reason I was a little disturbed at the following" passage in the second reading speech of the Minister for Housing who in this place represents the Minister for Social Services: A considerable amount of lime is spent by many sheltered workshops training their disabled employees until they reach a degree of proficiency which enables them lo accept outside employment. Sheltered workshops are, therefore, continually losing their most proficient workers with resultant loss of their productive capacity. I direct the attention of the Senate to the sentence which followed: Because of this there has been an understandable reluctance on the pan of . many workshops to encourage their best workers to attempt the step to open employment. I quarrel with that statement of the Minister. I am sorry to have to throw such a quarrelsome note into this debate because there is unanimity of thought on the measure. Nevertheless it was an unfortunate choice of words by the Minister. In effect he said that Rod Holmes and the thousands of other people throughout Australia who are interested in the rehabilitation of the disabled prevent their good workers from going into outside industry notwithstanding the fact that they are capable of doing so. He is saying, in effect, that the sheltered workshop is denying the good worker in that shop the opportunity to go into private industry and to make a living wage because no sheltered workshop can afford to pay a real living wage to its inmates. As I have said, it was unfortunate that the Minister chose those words. Following the Minister's statement I raised the matter by way of question to the Minister for Housing as representative in this place of the Minister for Social Services. On 14th October 1970 the Minister for Social Services replied to me as follows: 1 refer to the question without notice which you addressed to the Minister for Housing, Senator the Hon. Dame Annabelle Rankin, on \1 September, referring to my second reading speech on the Sheltered Employment (Assistance) Bill 1970, and asking whether you could be supplied with the names of the sheltered workshops which I stated showed an understandable reluctance to encourage their best workers to graduate to open employment. information about the activities of approved sheltered workshops is obtained by my Department as the result an annual survey. When these surveys were instituted some organisations, as independent business enterprises, were reluctant to make available detailed information concerning their commercial activities and policies. Because of this they were assured that the data provided by individual workshops would be treated as confidential, and that any published information would not identify particular workshops. A copy of the 1969 survey report is enclosed. You will appreciate that, in the circumstances, the disclosure of information of the kind sought would bc regarded as a breach of confidence on my part. I do not believe that that information can be regarded as confidential. The Minister has said that there is some reluctance on the part of sheltered workshops to pass out into private industry some of their good workers. I have had substantial experience with sheltered workshops and organisations of that nature, and I know of no organisation which would do that to a person whom it has rehabilitated. In those circumstances I take strong exception to the Minister's words and regard his answer as completely unsatisfactory. I conclude by saying that whenever I walk into a sheltered workshop I feel rather sympathetic but encouraged - sympathetic when I think that there are people in the world today who by an accident of birth or as a result of some other misfortune are forced to go into those organisations: encouraged because of the fortitude that they display in trying to overcome their difficulties, and also by reason of the fact that there are so many people in Australia who willingly give of their time to assist those unfortunate people. The Australian Labor Party supports the principles of the Bill but I have indicated one clause which I believe will throw up some anomalies and I ask the Minister to have that clause reviewed. 1279 KB9 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator Wilkinson - Does that mean that no Commonwealth grant is made to a State for that purpose? In Committee The Bill. 1279 KUS Queensland 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - I should like to address myself to an answer given by the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) in reply to one of my questions. First I refer to the definitions contained in proposed sections 16a and 16b. If 1 correctly interpreted the Minister's remarks, she said that, if a sheltered workshop trained a person for not less than 6 months and if the trained person stayed in the workshop for 12 months, the workshop would receive the training fee of $500. I am afraid that my understanding of the Bill does not coincide with that interpretation. Proposed section 16a states: In this Part, 'normal employment', in relation to a person, means: full-time employment of the person with an employer at rates of pay normally paid in respect of employment in the occupation concerned . . . I do not worry about sub-section (b) at this stage. Then we come to proposed section 16b which states: (1.) Where: a disabled person who has completed a continuous period of nol less than 6 months' sheltered employment provided by an eligible organisation completes, on or after the commencement of this Part, a further continuous period of 12 months' normal employment; I draw to the Minister's attention the definition of 'normal employment' and contrast it with the interpretation that I believe she placed on my earlier remarks. I should like some explanation of that. 1279 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - The normal wage. 1279 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - I am informed that the sheltered workshop would attract the $500 if, after training, the person is employed in the sheltered workshop and paid the normal wage for a period of 12 months. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - Senator Milliner is asking about the ones working inside the sheltered workshop. Senator O'Byrne may refer to the others later. 1280 JYA Tasmania 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - I should like to know whether the $500 is available in the case of a handicapped person who continues to work in the sheltered workshop for 12 months and whether the $500 payment is still available to the organisation after his employment for 12 months in the sheltered workshop. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin - The honourable senator interjected and I was answering that interjection as well as replying to the question from Senator Milliner. 1280 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator Milliner - I am sorry to be per sistent about this, but there are just 3 words that the Minister omitted and I would need those 3 words for her answer to be clear to me. Does the person working in a sheltered workshop have to receive the award wage for that class of work before the sheltered workshop qualifies for the $5007 1280 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator Milliner - Substitute other words for 'normal wage'. What is the normal wage? 1280 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator Milliner - Not necessarily. 1280 K28 LP 1 0 RANKIN, Annabelle Senator Dame ANNABELLE RANKIN - Then you have it both ways. Bill agreed to. Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. Third Reading Bill (on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin) read a third time. 1280 bill Second Reading Debate resumed from 15 October (vide page1 169), on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin: That the Bill be now read a second time. 1280 K3A Victoria 0 0 BROWN, William Senator BROWN - In due course the Australian Labor Party proposes to move an amendment to this Bill. We believe it is deficient in 2 aspects. Firstly, it fails to provide adequate grants to the States in terms of the finance that is being made available in the Budget for 1970-71, namely, $5m. Secondly, it is deficient because it simply continues to extend a provision introduced in 1955 as a consequence of an extensive and meticulous examination of mental health facilities and the needs of Australia in that field, a report on which was tabled at that time at the request, I presume, of Sir Earle Page, who was then Minister for Health. The report recommended among other things financial assistance to the States to enable them to bring up to modem day requirements the institutions that were obviously in a shocking, deplorable and dilapidated state. The report also recommended that finance be made available for additional buildings and equipment on the basis of Si to be paid by the Commonwealth for every $2 provided by the States. We believe that the Bill is also deficient in that it has failed to adopt a number of recommendations in what is referred to as the 'Stoller report'. That report recommended what can best be described as the development of a regional community and integrated mental health service' for those people who are mentally retarded, mentally disturbed and intellectually retarded. I think it is essential at this stage to refer briefly to the second reading speech of the Minister for Housing (Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin), who in this chamber represents the Minister for Health (Dr Forbes). She pointed out that the Bill extends the operation of the States Grants (Mental Health Institutions) Act 1964-67 only for a further period of 3 years, from 1st July 1970 to 30th June 1973. The Minister went on to point out that the basis of the grant would be the same as the previous basis, namely, $1 for every $2 expended by the States. She restated on behalf of the Minister for Health that this Bill applies only to mental institutions as described, and its provisions are confined to the construction and alteration of buildings used for the purpose specified, and the acquisition of equipment for use in mental health institutions. In another place the Minister for Health, speaking in the debate on an amendment proposed by (he Opposition to this Bill, said, as reported at page 2245 of Hansard of the current sessional period: Admittedly, and to be fair, t must say that the State governments have asked the Commonwealth for more in fact than we have given in this field. The Minister acknowledged a deficiency in terms of the amount of money to be made available to the States for mental health institutions, as provided for in this Budget, namely, S5m. The Minister challenged the propriety of the Opposition in moving its amendment. At page 2246 of Hansard he is reported to have queried, in the following terms, the Opposition's right to propose its amendment: I regard the Opposition amendment as another attempt by honourable members opposite, sitting in their ivory tower in Canberra, to tell the States what is good for them, how to run their mental health services, to intrude their judgment gained at second hand or through reading material written by someone else, into matters which are clearly the responsibility of the States. I want to deal with that aspect because I believe that the Government has been sadly remiss in discarding or setting aside the many recommendations contained in the Stoller report. 1 think I should refer briefly to the commission that was extended to Dr Stoller in 1955 by the then Minister for Health. I think it is appropriate to refer briefly to the foreword to the report, by Sir Earle Page, who said: This report by Dr Stoller assisted by Mr Arscott on the mental health facilities and needs of Australia is the first full Australian appreciation of the position of the treatment of mental disease. The Commonwealth Government desired such an appreciation of the whole position to ensure a properly informed discussion with the Slate governments on the best methods of co-operation in this field. . . . The Commonwealth Government felt that a full picture of mental disease and its treatment was imperative as a preliminary to discussion with the State governments. The States consented that Dr Stoller and Mr Arscott should have full access to their whole organisations. That full picture is given in their excellent and illuminating report, which has now been presented. With those words the then Minister for Health put beyond question the extent and excellence of the report. Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin in her second reading speech referred to the fact that $44m had been made available to the States since the original Act of 1955. I think we should bear in mind the deplorable state of the mental health services and institutions in ali States at that time. There was need for a massive sum of money simply to renovate institutions that had been standing for a very long time. Such institutions have been standing in the west and north west of Victoria, at Ararat and Beechworth, and in the metropolitan area at Kew, since 1867. The sum of $44m has been provided over a period of 15 years, or at the rate of a shade less than $3m a year. As it has been spread over 6 States, the amount received by each State leaves a lot to be desired. Nevertheless, this money has materially assisted the States to raise the standards of mental health institutions and equipment that were in such a deplorable state. Quite apart from that contribution by the Commonwealth, a great range of services outside the identifiable institutions is essential for what Dr E. Cunningham Dax has referred to as a 'need to create an environment which is designed to rehabilitate all the mentally ill by returning them to the mainstream of the community'. I think this aim will bear some examination. Amongst other things, the Stoller report referred, at page 171. to research. I think the. reference is quite pertinent to the amendment I propose to move on behalf of the Opposition. Section E was headed Research' and the comment was: This is conspicuous by its absence - a fact which is not surprising when all mental health resources are being used to maintain the service which it is giving at present, inadequate as it is. Under subsection 5, 'Final Remarks', commencing on the same page, the Stoller report stated: It has been shown that there is much to be done to - overcome years of neglect and inertia in mental hospitals, and bring the standard of Australian psychiatry to a reasonable level of modern practice. Modern psychiatry is thought of, and practised, in relation to - (a)a service for sick people, a service for some social welfare problems, and in the preventive field, as a positive contributionto the total health of the community. The report went on to state: Throughout our tour, we have met with requests for psychiatric help in all these fields and regrets have been expressed, at many levels of society, that mental health needs are not being fulfilled. I repeat thatthis suggestion was made to the Commonwealth Government and to the then Minister for Health, Sir Earle Page, 15 years ago. The report continued: Any programme lo remedy matters must take into consideration - The remedy of overcrowding in mental hospitals. The improvements of medical standards in mental hospitals. The provision of large numbers of suitablytrained professional staff. An increase in community service, including early treatment, services, clinics, training centres, and community education. A programme of applied and basic research. 1 think it fair to say that during the course of the last 15 years the Commonwealth Goverument has contributed towards alleviating, at least in part, much of the accommodation difficulties experienced in the years prior to that report. Notwithstanding that, insufficient attention has been directed towards providing suitably trained professional staff. Also, insufficient assistance has been given to community services, of which there are many, based on parent organisations and other interested persons who voluntarily give their time and energy in order to assist those less fortunate who suffer from some mental defect of varying degrees. These organisations do receive some form of assistance from State governments but it is rather an inconsistent sort of financial support. lt varies from State to State and is far from sufficient to enable them to provide the necessary services outside institutions to provide a stepping stone back into the community and the mainstream of social and economic life. The final suggestion of the Stoller report for a programme of applied and basic research would call for additional finance to enable psychologists, psychiatrists and similar people, required for therapeutic treatment, social work, psychiatric centres, and administrative and other stuff, to be employed. My studies of the position in Victoria reveal that this staff has been increased and I am sure that the situation is not dissimilar in other States. 1 think what I have said discounts the suggestion made by the Minister for Health in the other place that the Opposition is relying on people who have no connection or understanding of the situation in Australia. I repeat that the Stoller report was commissioned by the government of the day. Regrettably it is still the government of the day but f think it is only a matter of time before the Australian Labor Party becomes the government. We would act upon the substance of the suggestions made by Dr Stoller and his colleague. I want to refer to suggestions made by Dr Cunningham Dax, a man for whom I have very high personal regard. He was chairman of the newly constituted Mental Hygiene Authority in Victoria. I think it was created in about 1950 or 1952. 1283 KSN 0 0 MARRIOTT, John Senator Marriott - He is giving Tasmania the benefit of his wisdom now. 1285 K1F Victoria 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - 1 second the amendment. T support the amendment because it is in line with world thinking on the treatment of mental illnesses. I could refer to many of the surveys, examinations and investigations which have been made to show positively that regional development is absolutely essential in this field. Senator Brown referred briefly to the task force which was appointed by President Kennedy in the United States of America shortly after his election to the his august position. This task force took in the fields of law, accommodation and treatment. The reports which were submitted to the President by this task force showed quite clearly on every account that the old method of keeping the mentally ill had gone by the board and should be abolished and not bolstered up, as is happening in some of the States of the Commonwealth at present. The reports indicated that wherever possible a crash programme should be introduced to bring about a hospitalisation and treatment system on a regional basis which accommodated no more than 300 patients in each institution, lt would be quite obvious to anybody who has investigated this problem and visited these institutions that this is vitally necessary. In company with the honourable member for Burke (Mr Keith Johnson) in the other place I had the privilege of being shown through the Sunbury mental hospital by its superintendent. I have spoken before in this chamber on this matter. It absolutely horrified me to see mentally ill people living in the conditions under which they live in this institution. Old gaol-type buildings are being improved to accommodate the mentally ill people. The only answer T could, think of to the problem is for the Commonwealth Government to provide money on a much larger scale in the field of mental health so that some of the present institutions can be bulldozed down and new and improved facilities made available. No matter how dedicated the members of the staff of such institutions as Sunbury and Beechworth may be they cannot operate efficiently under the present conditions. Money is being spent on these institutions, but in most cases it is to no avail. Some of the present institutions are cold, stone buildings; no heating system can be installed in them. We were horrified when the superintendent at Sunbury told us that he had to stand 8, 10 and sometimes 12 patients stark naked in a cold corridor during the middle of winter while they waited for their morning shower or bath. This is an example of the type of building which is in existence today. These institutions were established in the days when everybody thought that the way to treat mentally handicapped people was to put them in a gaol-like asylum and forget about them. The tragic thing is that this view was shared not only by the authorities but also by many parents who felt that it was a great disgrace to them to have a mentally afflicted child. 1287 KRU Victoria 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator LITTLE - I do not propose to speak for very long on this measure. I think we should approach it, not in an atmosphere of panic, but in an atmosphere of common sense. Many of the comments which have been made about (he situation regarding mental illness arc true. I do not think we should endeavour to associate anybody with blame on the question because mental illness is almost a natural sequence of the way of life we lead and the medical knowledge which has really developed so rapidly in recent years. Probably it was the rapid development of medical knowledge of a physical character which, in the first place, when man discovered that the brain tissue does not heal as does the rest of the body tissue established a somewhat hopeless attitude towards mental illness. As far as the damaged section of the brain was concerned it was irrevocably destroyed. 1 think it was quite natural that an attitude that mental illness was somewhat of a hopeless character developed. So we persisted not with the treatment of mental illness but with the restraint of those who were likely to be dangerous to the rest of the community. Of course that altitude built up. In the beginning it was more the pity of those who were closely associated with the restraint of people who were mentally ill and suffering physically that redirected attention to the problem. Indeed scientists began to discover when dealing not so much in the physical but more in the psychological fields that there were causes other than actual brain damage for mental illness. There could be associated nervous situations which could create circumstances of mental illness and which had nothing to do with the physical damage to the brain itself. From this the idea was established that treatment was possible. This idea is of quite recent origin. So we reached the situation we arc in today where we are beginning to have recommended to us by many people different types of treatment. Those more associated with regional efforts have found that where patients can be kept closer their psychological reactions are less drastic than when separated from all the things they know and understand and from the people they have been associated with. They are given a sense of security on which to build the treatment of the illness. Because of this we in the Australian Democratic Labor Party see nothing wrong with the Bill. We also see nothing wrong with the amendment. We feel that the amendment merely clarifies what is possible within the ramifications of the Bill. For that reason we are in favour of expressing the opinion that this financial assistance should be made available. 1 would counsel Senator Poyser not to be carried away too much by statistics which can be produced to show that one person in every three is suffering from some form of mental illness. It is quite probable that one person in every three in this Chamber if not suffering from some form of mental illness or psychlogical disturbance tonight is suffering from a physical illness of some form which their bodies will recover from completely and entirely without any medical assistance whatsoever. This is true in the physical sense and, to some extent, it is true in the mental sense that many people make their own adjustment to psychological ailments and disturbances with the assistance of those who are close to them and who help them in some small ways. The quoting of mere statistics can perhaps throw the whole community into a panic. I know that some of the well trained people quote statistics to create just that situation because it is the only way to draw the attention of the whole community to something with which we all - never mind about our politics - naturally tend to put to one side and to feel that that is the problem of the other fellow who is individually concerned or whose family, in some way, becomes associated with the problem. I think we should approach the whole problem in an atmosphere of sympathy to each other and to the community as a whole, lt does not need me to tell honourable senators in this Chamber who are all probably acquainted with the problem of the tremendous advances that have been made in recent years particularly where the brain has been damaged by some natural sequence of life like the hardening of the arteries or the bursting of a tiny blood vessel in a small portion of the brain. Science has discovered that while it cannot heal the irrevocably damaged portion of the brain other portions of the brain can be trained to take over and perform the function of the injured portion. A tremendous amount of work has been done in the field of geriatrics to help people who have been injured in this way. This is really a comparatively new field in which tremendous strides forward are being made. We feel that the other suggestions which have been put forward by trained personnel should be developed. They will not all be as successful as some of the progenitors of them hope but I think they offer a better deal to the whole community. In the final analysis another step forward will be taken in our general march to the better things in life for everybody. People will be helped to return to normality rather than be destroyed by the wrong type of physical restraint for a psychological or mental problem. Physical restraint was the old and natural form because of the knowledge of the times which did not permit anything else. People were driven further into the problem that they had and ultimately they became a complete charge upon the community. That is a waste. I do not think any of us like waste, whether it is of human capacity, human lives or human potential. For that reason alone when we begin to realise there is an opportunity to prevent this sort of human waste we are all for it. My Party suggests that the amendment does not harm the Bill in any way. It could be considered that the Bill already makes some provision along these lines. If, in actual practice, this, to some extent has been done already, it does no harm whatever to direct specific attention to the growing need to place the financial capacity at the disposal of those who are in a position to bring real relief to the people concerned and to the nation. The Australian Democratic Labor Party supports the amendment. The Senate divided. (The President - Senator Sir Alister McMullin) 23 19 Majority . . . . 4 AYES NOES Question resolved in the affirmative. Original question, as amended, resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. 1290 bill Second Reading Debate resumed from 15 th October (vide page 1153), on motion by Senator Dame Annabelle Rankin: That the Bill be now read a second lime. 1290 KBC Western Australia 0 0 WILLESEE, Don Senator WILLESEE - This Bill is one of the few presented by the Government providing for increases in costs that the Australian Labor Party will not oppose. For many years there has been a licence fee of $2 on those radio communication stations that we all know so well - mobile stations, land stations, amateur stations and so on. This licence fee has not been alteredsince 1924, the reason being that there was very little alteration in the duties of the Department in policing or collecting licence fees until about 1950. Since 1950 the number of licences issued has increased from 5,000 to 136,000. Obviously the Department has had to lake cognisance of this and now has increased the fees. We have looked at the Bill. We do not think that the increased fees are high. The fee for land and fixed stations has risen to $10, the fee for mobile and amateur stations has risen to $6 while the fee for stations which provide services such as schools of the air, the Royal Flying Doctor Service and aerial ambulances - objects of great praise in Australia - has been allowed to remain at $2. One might ask: 'Why charge anything? I think it is wise at least for a record to be kept and I do not think anyone would complain about$2 in these days of inflation. I am all for keeping a very close departmental watch over the field of telecommunications, particularly where wave bands and so on are concerned. All in all, I do not think anyone could take objection to what is proposed in this instance. Licencesshould be policed. It is essential that anyone who is using air waves should be registered because a sudden upsurge could cause jamming or cramming of the bands in the spectrum. This could have adverse effects. As I have said, we have looked at the Bill fairly closely. It covers a number of aspects but we think that every one of them is reasonable.It is commendable that the licence fee for organisations which provide such wonderful service in the great outback has been left at $2 merely for registration purposes. We support the Bill. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. Senate adjourned at 10.27 p.m., till Tuesday, 20 October 1970 at 2.30 p.m.