1970-11-03 27 2 2 SENATE 1919 0 1970-11-03 The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. Sir Alister McMullin) took the chair at 10 a.m., and read prayers. 1919 Questions 1919 1919 K8N SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 TOOHEY, James Senator TOOHEY - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for the interior, ls the Minister aware of the unsatisfactory position with respect to lighting, parking and feeder bus services in the Kingston shopping area in the Australian Capital Territory? ls it a fact that some time ago some assurances were made concerning higher density development in Kingston, and if so. what progress has been achieved in this matter? 1919 JQR NEW SOUTH WALES LP Minister for Civil Aviation 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I am not aware of the details concerning the suburb of Kingston. I do know that there are some pressures on the facilities the honourable senator mentions. After question time I will see whether the Department of the Interior can let us have some information about the matter and if so I will transmit it to the honourable senator. 1919 Questions 1919 1919 KRG TASMANIA 0 0 LILLICO, Alexander Senator LILLICO - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Industry. Has the Minister noted the claim by a Press commentator that there is a very large potential meat market in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, a market so large that 25 million lb of meat unloaded at once would make little impression on it? Will the Department of Trade and Industry look at this position with the intention, if the report is correct, of supplying this market if possible? 1919 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - As the Senate would know, there is within the Department of Trade and Industry a special section devoted almost entirely to the purpose of promoting trade overseas and we have posts in many parts of the world for that very purpose. I am quite certain that the Department will be looking at the possibility of supplying this market in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Nevertheless, F will refer the question to the Department of Trade and Industry by way of a reminder of the honourable senator's special interest in it. I am satisfied in my own mind that the Department will be looking at this potential market and doing everything possible to get into it in some way. 1919 Questions 1919 1919 KVK NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Minister for the Interior. In view of the long, hard campaign waged by various citizens groups of the Australian Capital Territory to have the Black Mountain region defined as parkland reserves will the Minister give a solemn assurance that before the Postmaster-General's Department, acting under the apparent appeasement policy of the National Capital Development Commission, is permitted to erect a 610 ft television tower on the Black Mountain area, a public hearing will be held at which all parties will have to indicate publicly their motives for this apparent parkland desecration? 1919 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I am sure the honourable senator and all other honorable senators will clearly understand that I cannot give firm assurances on behalf of a Minister in another place. All 1 can do is to communicate to him the concern expressed by the honorable senator on this occasion and on many other occasions about Black Mountain and about the national park in that area and about the intrusions on that national park that many citizens of Canberra believe may take place. These things are always difficult. There is a conflict between progress, development and improved communication facilities which are desired by some people and the wishes of other people who seek to retain, as closely as possible, the pristine state of nature that Canberra was in when they first came here. These are always conflicts. I am sure that the honorable senator's interest is real and genuine. I am equally sure that the National Capital Development Commission and the Minister are conscious of the aspects to which he has referred as well as the needs of the community. 35-HOUR WORKING WEEK 1919 KQV QUEENSLAND CP; NCP from May 1975 0 0 LAWRIE, Alexander Senator LAWRIE - Has the attention of the Leader of the Government in the Senate been drawn lo a Press statement that a front bench member of the Labor Party in the other place has repudiated the policy of the Australian Labor Party for a 35-hour week by stating that this policy would not apply to primary industries? Would the Minister agree that if a large section of our people, namely the primary producing industries, cannot afford a 35-hour week, Australia as a whole cannot afford the luxury at the present time? Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSON- 1 have observed certain comments in the Press concerning the Labor Party's attitude to the 35-hour week.I have noticed that an Opposition member of the other place, who is a Queenslander representing a country constituency, has expressed his concern and shown reticence about the proposal, notwithstanding the fact that it is part of the Labor Party's policy and is contained in a document of that Party. All I can say is that I entirely agree with the proposal put by Senator Lawrie that if there is to be a proposition for a working week of so many hours it would apply in the rural area, and the rural area is vital to the whole Australian economy. Australia is a primary producing country which depends upon its exports. (Opposition senators interjecting) - Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONI am getting a lot of help from interjections, Mr President. If the honorable senator believes in such a proposal he should go out and advocate it at the election, but that is another story and I do not want to be provocative. One interjection leads to another interjection, and I suppose that is fair. The fact of the matter is that any effect on our rural industries affects the whole of Australia because we export and we depend on our export capacity for the security of our economy. Any proposal which affects our rural industries must have a profound effect on Australia generally. 35-HOUR WORKING WEEK 1920 K1Y SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - My question to the Leader of the Government in the Senate follows on his answer to Senator Lawrie. Is the Minister now saying that the Government intends to review arrangements made in the Australian coal mining industry for a 35-hour week, which is now operating? Is he also saying that in certain circumstances the Government might review its application of the 37-hour week principle for most of its own public servants? Or is the Government admitting that the questions of standard hours and the Australian economy are matters for determination by industrial tribunals or negotiation between particular interests, as has applied in respect of the stevedoring authority? 1920 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I am not saying the words that Senator Bishop is trying to put in my mouth. He is building up a phantom out of what he thinks I said. 1 did not say those things at all. What I did say was that the Australian Labor Party is committed to the principle and it is contained in its platform. Secondly I said that any proposal on hours which has a deleterious effect on the rural industry does injury to the whole economy of Australia. 35-HOUR WEEK 1920 KPK VICTORIA 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - My question is addressed to the Leader of the Government in the Senate. Having heard what he said in answer to Senator Lawrie I ask him: Would I be right in saying that exactly the same sentiments were expressed when a 48-hour week, a 44-hour week and a 40-hour week were granted successively to the average workers in this country? Seeing that all those presumptions were incorrect, as time has proved them to be, would he say that his presumption this time would be the only correct one? 1920 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I do not agree entirely with what Senator Kennelly said. I recall, for instance, that the 40-hour week was introduced by legislative action in New South Wales, and that action was precipitate because it had not been properly phased in. The economy would not accommodate it. It started an economic situation there. That is an entirely different matter. The fact is - and Senator Kennelly knows this as we all do - that we have not always had a 48-hour week. Down through history the working week has been much longer. As a matter of fact, I did some reckoning last week. I worked out that I worked 75 hours in 5 days last week and so did everyone else here. It was pretty hard going. I gave an answer to a specific question put to me in relation to a proposal for a 35-hour week. The question was related to the rural industry. I gave an answer, and I do not detract from that one little bit. Questions 1921 Questions 1921 1921 K6F SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport: Has the Government any power to consider or to control the anticipated increased costs of containerised shipping? Are the repeated increases a repudiation of assurances given to a Senate select committee that containerisation would contain shipping costs? Could the Australian wool exports be shipped at cheaper rates by charter ships? Does the Government support, any proposal for cheaper freights? 1921 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I noted in this morning's Press a statement by someone called Sir Andrew Crichton, who forecast higher freight rates in due course for container ships. In the brief time available 1 was able to get some information from the Department of Shipping and Transport which I will give to the honourable senator. I cannot give him a great deal more, except to add my concern to his concern that the costs of shipping our products overseas are matters of great importance to all Australians. Any increase in the freight on our products reacts against the Australian community. The only note 1 have which would help at all is that, the Government's aim is to ensure that Australian exports are provided with adequate, efficient and economical shipping services. It is recognised that in providing these services ship owners are entitled to a reasonable return on their investment. Against this background it is obvious to us all that there are inflationary pressures which do affect costs in both this community and the overseas community. The Government is keeping a very close watch on any movement, i. am unable to say what the assurances were that were given to the Senate Select Committee on Containerisation, but I am sure that the Government will be keeping them in mind. Equally, it will be keeping in mind anything that it can do to keep freights within bounds. 1921 Questions 1921 1921 KAS VICTORIA 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry whether he recalls a statement by the Minister for Primary Industry earlier Questions1921 this year, following a meeting of the Agricultural Council, in which he referred to new standards of inspection which were required for dripping and edible tallow and which had been agreed to as necessary by the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia. Has the Minister's attention been drawn to an article in a Sydney newspaper on Saturday last in which the writer claimed that only wholesome materials were used in the manufacture of edible tallow? Can the Minister advise the Senate whether new inspection standards have brought about the situation claimed by the article? Have the States agreed to adopt the recommendations and the new standards required by the National Health and Medical Research Council? 1921 JXR WESTERN AUSTRALIA CP Minister for Air 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I well recall the Minister's statement earlier in the year. 1 also recall a question to me earlier in the year from Senator Webster on this matter. However, at present 1 cannot add to the information that was given by the Minister at the time. Hut I shall make inquiries and let the honourable senator know the result by letter. 1921 Questions 1921 1921 JZB NEW SOUTH WALES 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for National Development. In view of the great deposits of uranium in Australia and the overseas interest in their development, will the Australian Government consider enriching its uranium or having it fabricated here before selling it overseas in order to get increased export earnings? Has the Government taken this type of action in the metals field, metals being pelletised in Australia before being sold abroad? 1921 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I do not think there is a great deal of similarity between the process of pelletising iron ore and the process of enriching uranium. But the principle the honourable senator has put forward is, I suppose, the same in thai what Australia should seek to do is to take the manufacture of its raw materials to as many stages as is possible in order to enhance the price structure. I cannot say any more than that. I do not know the activities of the Department of National Development in the field of studying uranium enrichment, but 1 can assure the 3 Novemher 1 970 honourable senator that in the broad sense and as a financial proposition in regard to Australia's raw materials, particularly minerals, this is under examination all the time. 35-HOUR WEEK 1922 KMX VICTORIA 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD -I address a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry. Has the Minister noted the discrepancy between firstly what appears in the Australian Labor Party's platform, wherein it is stated that the Labor Party seeks a 35-hour week with progressive reductions to 30 hours, and also the power of the Parliament to fix industrial conditions; secondly, statements by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Whitlam, and the new Vice-President of the Australian Labor Party, Mr Hawke, seeking a reduction in working hours; and thirdly, the statements by the Labor Party's shadow Minister for Primary Industry, Dr Patterson, saying in effect that rural industry could not afford a reduction in hours? Is the Minister able to say anything which would help to resolve this discrepancy in the minds of the Australian people? Has the Minister consulted the Minister for Primary Industry to ascertain whether a statement can be produced showing the adverse effects on rural industry of an overall reduction in working hours? 1922 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - As one who has spent a good deal of his time in rural industries, I have been very interested in the announcements made by various people concerning reduction of the working week to 35 hours. A reduction of the working week by one-eighth must inflict on industries an increased labour cost of about 14 per cent. During the past week I have been listening to speeches by members of the Opposition about the dire straits of the primary industries at the present time. I think nothing could be more disastrous for a rural industry than an increase in work costs. I well recall that when wool prices increased in 1951 the Australian Workers Union sought a prosperity loading in the pastoral award. I believe that it is fair that those who are bound by that award should now give something in return to the primary industries for their efforts. 1922 Questions 1922 1922 KTA NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland - My question is directed to the Minister for Civil Aviation. Do I understand from the Minister's reply to me yesterday that the report on the siting of a second Sydney airport has not yet been forwarded to the Government of New South Wales, notwithstanding the fact that it has been with the Minister since 24th September, some 6 weeks ago? Because the interdepartmental committee that was established by the Government to inquire into the matter first commenced its sittings in January 1969, and because of the urgency of the matter, I ask: How much longer does the Minister intend to sit on the report before there is likely to be some sign of it beginning to hatch? 1922 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - As a matter of interest I extracted from Hansard a series of questions on this subject which I believe I have answered promptly, properly and accurately. Questions were asked on 19th August 1970, 21st August, 24th September, 30th September, 13th October, 20th October, 21st October, 26th October and 2nd November. If the honourable senator will study those questions at his leisure, if he gets any, he will find that my replies have been given continuously and have been of the same character. The report is still in the hands of the Department of Civil Aviation and is receiving every attention. It will continue to receive attention. As soon as the study is finished and I get a chance to look at the report after the Senate rises, I will communicate with the State Government. I can say no more, I can say no less. Attempts to make me personally responsible and unpopular I could not care less about. 1922 Questions 1922 1922 CAK TASMANIA 0 0 RAE, Peter Senator RAE - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport. Is the Minister aware that the road toll is increasing at a very rapid rate and is now soaring towards the level of 4,000 deaths per annum? Does the Minister agree that the road toll is now so high in deaths and injuries that it must be regarded as being in the nature of a permanent national disaster? Will the Minister request the Minister for Shipping and Transport to reconsider the extent of the Commonwealth Government's activity in providing funds and personnel for research by road traffic authorities into driver training and licensing, and to consider assisting or encouraging the introduction and use of helicopter ambulances, at least in the main urban areas, so as to assist in reducing the incidence and severity of road accidents. 1923 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - I am concerned, as obviously Senator Rae is, at the increasing number of road deaths. It is quite alarming and most upsetting. The Minister is involved in a consideration of these activities with the Transport Advisory Council of the Commonwealth and the States. I know he is worried about this. I shall direct this question to him and try to get an answer for Senator Rae before we rise. 1923 Questions 1923 1923 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport a question. Will he inform roe what benefit the wool grower obtains from the Australian National Line engaging in overseas activities and carrying his wool overseas? I point out that as the Australian National Line has joined the conference lines it must charge the same freight rates as the other shipping companies. Why has the Government refused permission to the Australian National Line to increase freight rates from Tasmania to the mainland while it has allowed the Line to become a member of the conference lines and as such to undertake to charge the same freight rates as the other members of the conference? 1923 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - That is a question I shall have to ask the honourable senator to put on notice. I will try to get an answer from the Minister for Shipping and Transport before we rise. The question contains many elements that should be answered by the Minister himself. 35-HOUR WEEK 1923 K3W WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 CANT, Hartley Senator CANT - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry. If it is the intention of the Minister to produce at the request of Senator Greenwood a statement on the effects of a reduction in hours in rural industries will the Minister in preparing that statement indicate the number of workers who would be affected in the rural industries by a reduction of hours? Will the Minister include in the statement a record of the effect of the contract system being used in rural industries to avoid award provisions relating to hours of work? How many rural industry awards now contain provision for a 40-hour week? When the Minister was operating farms in Western Australia what were the hours of his workers under the farm workers' award of Western Australia? Is the 40-hour week in industry generally still being phased in by the requirement of workers to work reasonable overtime? 1923 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I made no promise to Senator Greenwood that 1 would make a statement. 1 was answering off the cuff a question that he asked me. In regard to the number of awards, I heard Senator Cant ask the Leader of the Government the other day to provide a list of the awards and I think the Leader replied that he would seek that information, so I am not going to reply to that part of the question. The farm workers' award is not the only award that a farmer is bound by. He also comes under the pastoralists award. 1923 K3W 0 0 CANT, Hartley Senator Cant - No, he does not. 1923 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - If the honourable senator wants to argue that, I point out to him that I paid rates for years te shearers who came under the pastoralists award and during the course of shearing no-one worked more than 40-hours a week. 35-HOUR WEEK 1923 KBY 0 0 YOUNG, Harold Senator YOUNG - I ask a question of the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry supplementary to that asked by Senator Cant. Is it not an economic fact that any cost factor affecting any industry in Australia is reflected ultimately throughout the economy, including primary industry, so that any increase in the cost of production in any industry in Australia will have an effect upon primary industry? Therefore would a 35-hour week not have an adverse effect upon primary industry? 1923 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - The mere reduction of the 40-hour week to a 35-hour week must have a terrific direct cost effect immediately all over the community. 1924 JZB 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator Fitzgerald - Forty-four hours in many cases. 1924 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I am talking about a 40-hour week; it is mostly 40 hours. When this direct cost is passed down to the primary industries, as all costs are passed down, the increase is somewhere in the vicinity of 20 per cent and not 14 per cent, which would be the simple percentage decrease in hours. No industry which has to export its goods to markets 12,000 miles away can stand this sort of an increase. 1924 Questions 1924 1924 7V4 QUEENSLAND 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES - I ask a question of the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry, ls it not a fact that the mechanisation of rural industries by large companies and the Government's policy of amalgamation of rural properties call for a reduction of hours for rural workers not to 35 a week but to no hours at all? Is this not supported by the evidence of drift from the rural sector to the cities? Is this situation not caused by the faulty economic rural policy of this Government? 1924 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - The drift of rural population from the country to the city is caused by increased costs and falling returns. As announced in the Budget, the Government is trying to do and will do everything that it can to effect farm reconstruction and debt adjustment in an endeavour lo assist these people. 1924 K19 0 0 POKE, Albert Senator Poke - And that means just plain nothing. 1924 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - Well, if that means must plain nothing in Senator Poke's language, it means a great deal to the people whom this will affect vitally. I think that I have covered most of the points raised in the rest of the question. 1924 Questions 1924 1924 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - Will the Leader of the Government in the Senate affirm that the Government supports the right of people in this community to dissent? I ask further: With the Senate election to be held on 21st November, can the Leader of the Government convey any information as to the outcome of the serious division in Labor ranks, in Victoria at least, as noted by the very large Labor meeting which expressed- (Opposition senators interjecting) - 1924 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! 1924 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - I will repeat that question. 1924 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Yes, I would think the honourable senator would. 1924 KAS 0 0 WEBSTER, James Senator WEBSTER - With the Senate election to be held on 21st November, can the Minister convey any information as to the outcome of the serious division in Labor ranks, in Victoria at least, as noted by the very large Labor meeting which expressed its dissent with the actions of the Federal Executive of the ALP in that State? Can the Minister suggest any reason why, as the Senate election is to be held on 21st November, the apparent outcome of the problems of this strife-ridden Parly will be known following a meeting on 22nd November? 1924 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - First I was asked to express a view in relation to the Government's attitude on dissent. All I can say is what I have said in this place so many limes before. The right to dissent is an inherent part of our Constitution and an inherent part of our democratic way of life. What the Government says - and 1 am sure what every sensible person says - is that such dissent of necessity and very properly must be within the framework of the laws of the land. Once dissent goes beyond the laws of the land it becomes the law of the jungle: and it is anarchy. There is no doubt about that. So, the right of assembly, the right to dissent and the right to express a view against the establishments of the land are part of our heritage. But it has never been part of our heritage that somebody could say: 'I do not like that law; therefore I have the right to break it'. Therefore, dissent has to be within the framework of the law. The law is framed in such a way. As to the machinations and problems of the Australian Labor Party, well, I do not wish lo reflect upon those beyond saying that people are entitled to draw their own inference from the fact that the day after the forthcoming Senate election has been picked for the decision on a certain matter. 1924 Questions 1924 1924 CJO WESTERN AUSTRALIA 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry. Are we to understand from his answers to earlier questions concerning working hours in industry that the Minister would be in favour of lengthening the existing hours worked by Australian workers? Does he believe that the present 40-hour week is inadequate? If so, will he made clear during the current Senate campaign in Western Australia, particularly in the metropolitan area, that he favours an extension of existing working hours? 1925 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I am a great unionist at heart. I have demonstrated my belief by joining a union. Workers under awards relating to the pastoral industry and farm workers have obtained certain hours. I would not like to see them increased or decreased. But if Senator Wheeldon wants to go out into the country areas of Western Australia and advocate an increase of something like 20 per cent in costs in order to give the rural workers a 35-hour working week, I would be very happy for him lo do so. 1925 Questions 1925 1925 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Attorney-General. Who determines whether persons are to be prosecuted for breaches of the Crimes Act and, in particular, the offence of inciting the commission of offences against Commonwealth law? Is it the Attorney-General personally or is it an officer of his Department? What are the relevant considerations in determining whether such prosecutions are to be instituted and, in particular, what were the considerations which influenced the launching of prosecutions against certain students at Swinburne College of Technology as reported in the last week? 1925 KBW TASMANIA LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I would have thought that the procedure that a proposal for prosecution goes through would be fairly well understood. The police prepare a brief and if it is a question involving legal considerations it is submitted to the Attorney-General's staff for professional advice and then to the Attorney-General for decision. Not all cases involve that procedure. Clear cases would be taken by officers on their own responsibility, but the final responsibility for prosecutions is the responsibility of the Attorney-General. I regret that I have no information relating to the group of prosecutions to which the honourable senator has referred. I shall obtain that information for him. 1925 Questions 1925 1925 KPG QUEENSLAND 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - Is the Minister representing the Minister for External Territories aware that the Madang Branch of the Pangu Pati has been told that the permission of the District Commissioner must be obtained before a meeting can be conducted? Will the Minister agree that such action is a serious breach of civil liberties? Will he contract to see that the practice ceases forthwith and that no restrictions will be placed on branches of the Pangu Pati, which is a highly responsible and legal organisation 1925 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I have no knowledge of the facts that the honourable senator suggests. The question as to modification of the right of assembly depends so much upon the circumstances local to the incident, and I am not well enough informed of those local circumstances to bc able to give the honorable senator a responsible answer. I shall obtain a comment for the honorable senator from the Minister himself and communicate it to him. 1925 Questions 1925 1925 KUS QUEENSLAND 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator MILLINER - I direct my question lo the Leader of the Government in the Senate. In view of the fact that Government representatives claim that reduced working hours inevitably mean increased costs, does this mean that the Government intends to increase from 37} hours to 40 hours the working week for all Commonwealth public servants? 1925 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The honorable senator's question has no relevance to the questions asked and the answers that have been given about a shorter working week. 1925 Questions 1925 1925 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - 1 ask the Leader of the Government: What does the Government propose to do about the current increases being applied in freight rates in relation to Australian exports to the United Kingdom and also about the now threatened increase by Overseas Containers Ltd that freight rates will be increased during the current year to a yet higher level than the rates now applying, which have already been subject to recent increases of between 4 per cent and 10 per cent? Has the Minister rejected an Australian shippers' conference request to the Government that it intercede in this matter and attempt to get lower freight rates applied? I also ask: What will the Government do about the request by that body that the subject matter should be put to the Trade Practices Commission to see to what extent some control might be exercised, in view of the fact that now the Australian Shipping Commission is part of the AustralianUnited Kingdom conference, to see that Australian producers get a fair go? Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONThe honourable senator has just asked me 6 questions, according to my tally. I think the proper thing to do, because it is an important matter, is to ask that the question be put on notice for submission in the first instance to the Minister for Shipping and Transport. I invite the honourable senator to put his question on notice. 1926 Questions 1926 1926 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I desire to ask a question of the Leader of the Government in the Senate, lt follows the question asked of him by Senator Webster who endeavoured to emphasise what was happening in the Australian Labor Party in Victoria. Am 1 correct in saying that there has never been any trouble in the Country Party in Victoria because it has always been known that it is an appendage of the Liberal Party and that its representatives in this chamber are always happy to agree with the policy of the Liberal Party as long as the Liberal Party is prepared to place them in the No. 2 position on the Senate ballot paper? 1926 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - All I can say to Senator Kennelly's question, if it is a question, is that the Government Parties are happy in their coalition. 35-HOUR WEEK 1926 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - 1 desire to ask a question of the Leader of the Government in the Senate. Do not statistics disclose that there was a rapid increase in Australia's development and an increase in Australia's prosperity and in manufacturers and farmers' profits following the introduction of the 40-hour week in Australia? Did not production in terms of man hours worked increase after the introduction of the 40-hour week? What reason has the Minister to conclude that a further reduction in the number of working hours would not have the same beneficial effect as did the introduction of the 40-hour week 23 years ago? 1926 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - All the questions concerning this matter which have been asked this morning have been related to primary industry and to the effect which the reduction of about 121 per cent in the number of working hours in the week would have upon the rural economy. Senator Cavanagh now asks a question in which he expounds a theory on economics which, quite frankly, rather rocked mc. He has suggested that the skills which Australia has developed, the great industrial development that has taken place and the great mineral discoveries we have made, which obviously have had an important effect upon the economy in certain fields, have resulted from the previous reduction in the number of working hours in a week. I cannot buy that proposition, and I would be surprised if anybody in the world would buy it. 1926 Questions 1926 1926 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry whether it is a fact that the Queensland State Government has failed to place before the Commonwealth Government any properly documented plans for drought relief, water conservation and rural development for almost a year. Docs the Minister agree that this delay in producing such plans and in seeking Commonwealth financial assistance has been brought about because of the wide split in the Country Party in Queensland and the division in the coalition in that State? 1926 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - What the honourable senator says in the first part of his question is not a fact. I shall seek details of this matter and let him have them. I. will not answer the remaining part of the question. 1926 Questions 1926 1926 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - My question is directed to either the Minister for Civil Aviation or the Leader of the Government in the Senate. I refer to reported studies which have been made by the 2 domestic airlines in relation to their future requirements for aircraft and to the fact that Trans-Australia Airlines has said that it is studying the Tri-Star aircraft, the DC10 aircraft and the European Airbus. I ask the Minister: As he has been requested before to consider to what extent Australian industry might participate through co-production or offset orders in relation to our internal requirements for civil airlines, will he again consider, before approval is given to the airlines to make these purchases overseas, what arrangements might be made to have some amount of the work required in reequipment proposals done in Australia? 1927 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - This has been brought up in the Senate on a number of occasions by Senator Bishop. I can well remember him asking a question like this some time ago and my giving him an answer that I would do something about it and talk to the responsible airlines. I have done that. Once the Senate rises and the election is over one will obviously get more time to deal with the administration of the Department of Civil Aviation and I shall be taking it up again. 1927 Questions 1927 1927 KQN SOUTH AUSTRALIA 0 0 LAUCKE, Condor Senator LAUCKE - My question is addressed to the Leader of the Government in the Senate as the representative of the Treasurer. Is it not a fact that productivity and productivity alone is the major factor in determining what increases in wage rates and decreases in working hours are possible if real value is to be retained in the worker's pay packet and a competitive position maintained in our overseas trade? 1927 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - There is no doubt in the world that productivity is the basis of all variations in wages and prices. If increases in wages and salaries are required they can be granted in a situation in which productivity is rising. But if there is no increase in productivity then we have no capacity to make such increases. Productivity enables us to produce goods which can be sold on overseas markets, and this is one of the basic needs of our economy. The point that the honourable senator has made is a very good one. 1927 Questions 1927 1927 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I seek the co-operation of the Senate in bringing question time to a close so that we can push on with the business in everybody's interests. I propose that the Senate shall meet again after lunch at 2. IS. 1 understand that certain honourable senators will not be in the chamber for a short period this afternoon but I certainly shall be. I know that a national event will occur this afternoon but I would like the Senate to continue its work while that event is taking place. 1927 Questions 1927 1927 K3A VICTORIA 0 0 BROWN, William Senator BROWN - My question is directed to the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport. Having in mind past experience, is the Government in a position to protect the primary producer against the arbitrary decision by the internationally owned shipping monopolies known as the conference lines to increase freight rates? 1927 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - A number of answers have been given on this subject not only today but on previous occasions. The responsible Minister and the officers of the Department of Shipping and Transport have all been trying very hard to protect the interests of the Australian exporter and the Australian community. They will continue to do so. They are not really able to do more but they will certainly do their best. 1927 Questions 1927 1927 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I direct a question to the Minister representing the Attorney-General. I refer to the law and order syndrome of which most of us are aware and to the failure of the Government to enforce law and order effectively. Does the Minister share my misgivings about the inability of the Commonwealth and Victorian police to apprehend the perpetrator of the bombing of the Yugoslav Consulate in Melbourne? 1927 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Undoubtedly one shares the honourable senator's misgivings that the efforts to apprehend these criminals up to date have not been fruitful, but I have known many police investigations to take longer than this and still bring the culprits to trial. 1928 Questions 1928 1928 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I ask the Leader of the Government in the Senate whether the need is so great that we should depart from practice and not take a short recess this afternoon for the period when most of industry will stop. If we continue it will necessitate the attendance of the Clerks and officers of the House during this period of a quarter of an hour's duration. Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSONWe will carry on during that time. It may well be that we will be a bit thin in numbers, but I want lo keep going. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator Kennelly - You will have to keep the quorum. 1928 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - That is all right. If that procedure commenced of course the heat would be on and we could really start to play it hard. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator Kennelly - Why will you not be sensible about it? 1928 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I am prepared to keep the Senate here. If the honourable senator wants to go for a short time he may do so. Nobody imagines that honourable senators remain in the Senate from the time we start at 10 a.m. until we finish at 11 p.m. We move in and out and there is no reason why honourable senators should not do that during the afternoon. 35-HOUR WORKING WEEK Si' mi for KENNELLY - I address a question to the Minister representing the Minister for Primary Industry. If my hearing serves me correctly, and as a rule it does, he stated that the 35-hour week could mean as much as a 20 per cent increase in rural costs. I ask him, in a very kindly way, of course, whether he has read the report of the Bureau of Agricultural Economics which indicates that in respect of the wheat industry such a working week would mean an additional cost of approximately 1.75 per cent, or 2.65c per bushel. I ask him how he reconciles that 20 per cent - a lovely round figure - which he stated without any facts- 1928 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Order! The honourable senator must not debate the question. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I am not making a speech. I want to ask him a question. 1928 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - Well ask him the question. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I should be grateful if the Minister would inform me of the basis for his statement. If he has no basis, as undoubtedly he has not, will he admit that 20 per cent is a little out of order? 1928 JXR CP 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - I should think that it is a matter of simple arithmetic. A reduction of 5 hours, from 40 hours to 35 hours, is one-eighth of the time. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator Kennelly - And one-eighth of 100 does not make you right, does it? 1928 JXR 0 0 DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Thomas Senator DRAKE-BROCKMAN - No, but when we take 5 over 35, which must be the increase in costs, this is one-seventh and that works out at an increase of about 14 per cent. I have never seen an increase granted to any sector of the community that did not lead to added costs by the time it reached the primary industries. My assumption would be that there would not be a direct increase of 14 per cent but. by the time it hit the farmer on the land, it would be 20 per cent. 1928 miscellaneous 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I understand that the Leader of the Government has said that the Senate will not adjourn for an important national event. 1928 K2I 0 0 BRANSON, George Senator Branson - Are you advocating that we suspend the sitting? 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I am asking a question. If you want to ask it, I will sit down. Have I the floor, Mr President? 1928 10000 0 0 PRESIDENT, The The PRESIDENT - As long as what you are doing is asking a question. 1928 KPK 0 0 KENNELLY, Patrick Senator KENNELLY - I understand that the Leader of the Government has said that the House will not adjourn for 5 or 6 minutes this afternoon. If that be the case - and he, as Leader of the Senate, has the right to compel it to sit - will he make sure that his members form the quorum of the Senate during that time? 1928 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I need to repeat what I said some days ago to Senator Kennelly. Senator Kennelly is an old parliamentarian of long standing. He knows, as well as every other parliamentarian knows - or he should know - that in the final analysis the responsibility to keep a House is the responsibility of the Government. This is a fact. Having said that, I would ask for some co-operation this afternoon to keep the House for the very few minutes to which the honourable senator refers. 1929 Questions 1929 (Question No. 554) SenatorDEVITT asked the Minister representing the Minister for Shipping and Transport, upon notice: Do the provisions of Section 18(1) of the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission Act 1956-1962 require the payment to the Commonwealth of a reasonable return on the Capital of the Commission. Does Section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitution, which takes precedures of the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission Act 1956-1962, require that trade, commerce and intercourse between the Slates shall be absolutely free. Would any law which operated to the serious disadvantage of any one State, so as to affect adversely trade between that State and any other State, be in conflict with the spirit and intention of Section 92 of the Constitution.If so, would it not follow that section 18(1) of the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission Act is ultravires the Constitution and therefore without any force or validity as an argument to justify freight increase in the case of Tasmania which has no interstate land transport system as an alternative to shipping and where trade, commerce and intercourse between the States, as a consequence of a recent rise in shipping freights is not now absolutely free. 1929 JQR LP 1 0 COTTON, Bob Senator COTTON - The Minister for Shipping and Transport has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: Yes. Yes. J do not interpret section 92 of the Constitution to prohibit the Commonwealth or an instrumentality of the Commonwealth, such as the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission, from making a charge for services rendered or facilities provided on a contractual basis. Section 18(1) of the Australian Coastal Shipping Commission Act does no more than to require the Commission to conduct its business in a businesslike manner and on a basis similar to that on which a private concern operating shipping services for a reward would adopt. Accordingly, there would appear to be no reason why this section should be regarded as inconsistent with section 92 of the Constitution. 1929 Questions 1929 (Question No. 422) 1929 7V4 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice: If the document entitled Australian Military Forces PocketbookSouth Vietnam is on issue to the defence forces, and even if it is on a restricted list, will he make a copy available to the Senate for perusal. 1929 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The Minister for Defence has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The Australian Military Forces Pocketbook South Vietnam' is issued to troops on posting for service in South Vietnam. I am prepared to make a copy of the booklet available to the honourable Senator for his perusal. 1929 Questions 1929 (Question No. 423) 1929 7V4 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence, upon notice: Is a document entitled Australian Military Forces Pocketbook 'South Vietnam' on issue to the defence forces; if so, does it, as is claimed by the Catholic Worker, give only right wing accounts of the Vietnam war. Who wrote the document, and on whose authority is it distributed. 1929 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - The Minister for Defence has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: The Australian Military Forces Pocketbook South Vietnam' is issued to troops on posting for service in South Vietnam. I am advised it is a factual general information booklet designed to inform soldiers about the country in which they will be serving and its people. The booklet was written by officers of the Department of the Army and issued by direction of the Chief of the General Staff. 1929 Questions 1929 (Question No. 761) 1929 KTA NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland asked the Minister representing the Minister for Education and Science, upon notice: How many faculty quotas in the various universities throughout Australia are the result of (a) insufficient finance, both recurrent and capital, and (b) the maximum desired intake, as determined by the faculty, having been reached. 1929 KBW LP 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The Minister for Education and Science has provided the following answer to the honourable senator's question: Large universities, which must limit their growth for various reasons, including the physical limitations of the campus, apply quotas in order to control their intake. Those small universities which apply quotas to their enrolments do so in order to keep their rate of growth at a level which they consider manageable. It follows that the quotas rise in conformity with the rate of growth. The financial provision made for all universities in the form of government grants for both capital and recurrent expenditure is related to their planned enrolments. In all cases the size of quotas is determined by universities themselves and it is my experience that they act in this matter with great responsibility. 1930 miscellaneous The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Bull) - Are Notices of Motion Nos 2 and 3, Business of the Senate, standing in the name of Senator Cavanagh formal or informal? 1930 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Formal. 1930 miscellaneous Motions (by Senator Cavanagh) agreed to: That there be referred to the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare the following matter - The petition presented to the Senate on 28th October, 1970 by Senator Cavanagh, relating to crime in Australia. That there be referredto the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare the following matter - The petition presented to the Senate on 2nd November, 1970 by Senator Cavanagh, relating to crime in Australia. Motion (by Senator Willesee) agreed to: That consideration of Notice of Motion No. 1, Business of the Senate, be postponed until tomorrow. 1930 bill In Committee Consideration resumed from 2 November (vide page 1918). Second Schedule. Department of Trade and Industry Proposed expenditure, $40,030,000 less $2,350,000 for the Australian Tourist Commission. 1930 JZB New South Wales 0 0 FITZGERALD, Joseph Senator FITZGERALD - I regret that when the Estimates Committee was discussing these estimates I did not have at my disposal the information which 1 commenced to give last night when I was speaking in the Estimates debate and which I will continue to give this morning. I was pleased to have the opportunity to mention this matter last night because it gave an opportunity to the departmental officers to obtain answers to some of the questions that I raised. If this information had been available 1 would have taken up the matter with the Public Accounts Committee because I believe that an explanation is required. In turn, if my information is correct I believe that the Department of Trade and Industry has much to answer. This information came to me by virtue of discussions 1 had with members of the Federated Clerks Union who advised me that this sort of activity had been conducted by the Department. I want to know whether an outside firm, the Drake Overload agency, was brought in to assist the Department of Trade and Industry by providing staff from outside the Department to work overtime from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. If so, could not the competent staff of the Department have done this work? If the overtime appropriation had not been spent then it should have been used on this work. If this firm was brought in because the overtime appropriation had reached the stage at which it was insufficient for the purpose - and I think there may have been some juggling there - then it was quite inappropriate and incorrect for the Department take that course. It had the opportunity to come backto the Treasurer for a supplementary appropriation and it should have done so. How long did this work go on? What was the cost of employing this firm? I did mention the fact that the Federated Clerks Union came into this because some employees were paid $2 an hour and union members objected most strongly to this. They took the matter to the union which took appropriate action with the Public Service Board to have this practice stopped. I also asked the Minister when the Public Service Board stopped the employment of this firm after complaints from the Federated Clerks Union that the employees were underpaid? While it may be argued, of course, that it is not the responsibility of the Department of Trade to find what wages are being paid to employees of an outside firm, I do think there is an obligation on a government organisation to see that correct overtime rates are paid by any person or agency with which it is involved. The answers to those questions will be very useful to me and I know they are looked forward to with some degree of interest by outside bodies such as the union. 1931 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Supply 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON (11.7) - I would like to get a more complete answer for Senator Fitzgerald to the cases he has stated. 1 will see that that is done. 1 have a very brief note to which I shall refer in passing. The Department has part time typists with the approval of the Public Service Board. These are married women with school children, and during school holidays these ladies are given leave without pay to care for their children. That is one aspect. Together with normal absenteeism through sick and recreation leave and other staff shortages, the total shortfall of staff is almost half the typing strength in school holidays. As the Department was faced with visits by 3 overseas missions which arrived at very short notice and was also faced with the preparation of the International Grains Arrangement meeting it was essential to obtain typing resources quickly. The senator has gone beyond this reference and I think he is entitled to have a considered reply rather than a reply on the run by mc in the Estimates debate. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Department of External Affairs Proposed expenditure 581,276,600. 1931 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - My remarks are directed to Division 250-Administralive. As several Estimates Committees were meeting simultaneously I could not raise this matter before the appropriate committee. During the debate on last year's Estimates I raised with the then Minister the matter of the recruitment of staff for our embassy at Belgrade in Yugoslavia and the planned expansion - although some of it is in the immigration category - of our activities in that country. I was given a breakdown showing the number of people recruited from Australia as distinct from those recruited in Yugoslavia or in England. We now have in this country a group of people whose parent were post-war migrants. Some of them have an obvious aptitude for European languages, and it seems to me that recruitment to the Department of External Affairs staff should show a reasonable intake of children of post-war migrants. 1931 JZQ New South Wales LP Minster for Supply 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON (11.10) - I am unable to supply specific information at this moment. In the circumstances I think I should obtain the information for the honourable senator. I would hope to do this today. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Department of the Treasury Proposed expenditure SS3,O6S,000. 1931 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - [ have had only a short time in which to look at the estimates for the Department of the Treasury but I would like to refer, under Administration, to a reply to a question which I received yesterday regarding workers compensation and which I do not think is satisfactory. There is a need for further protection to be given to workers who are injured in the future. In this case Judge Levine heard 2 appeals, one against the decision of the Commissioner for Workers' Compensation revoking some 33 previous determinations in favour of the applicants after the death of this worker and before the case came on for appeal. In the opinion of the court this was contrary to section 6 (3.) of the Commonwealth Employees' Compensation Act which demanded equity and good conscience to be the guiding factors in the activities of the Commissioner. The facts of this matter are that the worker had a complaint for 13 years and the medical reports stated that this complaint caused his death. In 33 applications over the 13 years the Commission had issued determinations in favour of the worker either granting medical expenses when the applications were for medical expenses or alternatively granting workers compensation. In this case when the application was made for benefits under the Act after the death of the worker the determination of the Commissioner was that the Commonwealth was not liable to pay compensation for the death of the worker. On appeal it was found that the evidence would be that the determinations which had been made and which accepted liability for the workers' condition as one of the contributing causes of death had all been revoked and were therefore not available to rely on as an argument by the applicant in this case that the Commissioner had on behalf of the Commonwealth admitted liability for a condition up until the death of a worker, lt was then necessary to make application to the court to appeal against the revocation of the earlier determinations. This appeal was upheld by the court, thus permitting the use of those determinations in evidence to establish prima facie the liability of the Commonwealth. Judge Levine made this statement: I certainly take the view that the Commissioner did not comply with section 6 (3.) of the Act and hold that this court could not, in equity and good conscience, make an order revoking, at this stage, the previous determinations made in favour of the deceased. This is criticism of the Commissioner by the Judge. Wilh a view to protecting any future applicant in a similar circumstance 1. asked the Minister representing the Treasurer this question upon notice: Was the matter of criticism by the Judge, that the Commissioner's action was contrary to equity and good conscience, one of the requirements, under section 6 of the Act, that the Commissioner was obliged to exercise. The answer was: 'Yes. lt was a criticism of the Commissioner. My next question was: Did- the judge: . express the opinion that, the action of the Commissioner was like a trick of advocacy and done to withdraw what otherwise appeared to be an admission of liability favourable la the worker? The answer was yes, that the judge did express the opinion that here was the Commissioner, representing the Commonwealth, doing something which in the mind of the judge was like a trick of advocacy to withdraw what otherwise would appear to be an admission of liability favourable to the worker. My final question was: What action has been taken by the Treasurer, in view of this judgment, to ensure at all times that the Commissioner shall act in accordance with equity and good conscience and not prejudice claims by dependants of injured or deceased employees. The reply was: The delegate in the Office of the Commissioner reached the conclusion that the earlier acceptance of liability for the employee's condition had resulted from an incorrect interpretation of facts, the material records of which were and still are available. The delegate considered that, had these facts been correctly evaluated at the time, the late Mr Shearer's original claim would have been disallowed when it was considered in 1956 and no compensation would have been paid. Subsequently, the delegate considered he was required to take all possible steps to prevent the earlier error being compounded, and having concluded that the Commonwealth should not be required to meet further payments, i.e., payments in respect of the employee's death, he considered himself obliged to exercise the discretion available under section 6 of the Aci and revoke the earlier determinations. I am satisfied that at the time he took the decision, the delegate was convinced that he was acting in good conscience in accordance with the requirements of section 6(3.) of the Act, bearing in mind that in an earlier appeal case, Adams v. the Commonwealth, heard during 1966 in the Country Court in Melbourne, his Honour Judge Rapke had ruled that section 6(3.) was applicable not only to protect the interests of claimants but also the interests of the Commonwealth. Here we find criticism by the presiding judge of the action of the Commissioner who revoked determinations after the death of the worker when he knew that the matter was coming on for appeal. This action again is upheld by the Treasurer in his reply to my question. It is justified because the Treasurer says that the Commonwealth is protected by the use of equity and good conscience by the Commissioner. Despite the way in which some previous judgments may be interpreted 1 say that equity and good conscience at all times is not strictly in accordance with the law when evidence which may assist the other party is not disclosed, hidden, withdrawn or is not made available. In 33 previous determinations a prima facie case had been established to demonstrate the guilt of the Commonwealth in this respect. Those determinations were revoked and destroyed. In the opinion of the presiding judge, this was not a proper exercise by the Commissioner. The judge disallowed the revocation in the case before him. What the judge said was not a proper exercise has been justified by the Treasurer. If it had not been the case that an organisation with sufficient finances was available to support the appeal made on behalf of the dependants of the deceased - in this case, 2 appeals were necessary - we can see that many workmen or the families of deceased workmen will be denied their claims to workers compensation unless we can get some assurance from the Treasurer that the action by the Commissioner will not be upheld. The action by the Commissioner has been criticised by a presiding judge. I ask the Treasurer to condemn such action and give some assurance that more protection than has been given in this case will be given to injured workers who have a claim against the Commonwealth. 1933 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I seek information in regard to loan management expenses. 1 will illustrate my problem in this way: Several years ago, on the self same estimates, I questioned whether the judgment of the Commonwealth Bank in giving loan advertisements to some obscure newspapers in Sydney was of any value. 1 did this because I felt that room existed for expansion of such advertising in some of the foreign language newspapers in Sydney. I made a request on behalf of the 'Yugoslav Australian Journal' which over the last 10 years has come out consistently on a monthly basis. It has expanded its layout, size and circulation. L was told that a virtual freeze applied to such advertising. I do not object completely to that. I realise that some control must be exercised but I questioned the wisdom of having advertisements placed in the 'Century' newspaper. At the time 1 was told that the Commonwealth Bank felt it was justified. 1 was told later that eventually advertising in the 'Century' newspaper probably would taper off. I have not watched that obscure newspaper as closely lately as I used to. But I would like to know whether this is the case. 'A very reputable person in the Sydney community - I refer to the Mayor of Burwood, Alderman Doug Sutherland, one of the officials of the Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage Board - told me that, when the 'Century' newspaper asked the Board for advertising an inquiry to the Bureau responsible for audit circulation revealed that the Bureau could not give any information on the newspaper because the advertising content of the Century' newspaper was below the minimum circulation that justifies any rating by the Bureau. I conclude on this point by saying simply that I would like some clear cut understanding as lo whether 'Century' newspaper is still getting up on its hind legs and begging for handouts from Commonwealth departments or whether rightly it has been relegated to an area outside these loan advertisement handouts. While I am on my feet, to take a stand opposite to the one that I have just taken, I commended the officers of the Bureau of Census and Statistics for their work over the year and especially for the recent pamphlet that the Bureau has issued. This pamphlet in pocket form gives a quick summary of Australia with broad statistical details. This is a service to democracy. I think that the more people who have these basic factors before them the better. The money expended by the Bureau in this direction is money well spent. The Bureau gives good value in its activities for its expenditure. Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSON (New South Wales - Minister for Supply) (11.22) - The matter raised by Senator Cavanagh was in response to ti reply which he received yesterday to question number 757 which he had asked in the Semite, which I had asked him to put on notice and to which I furnished a reply yesterday. In his contribution this morning, the honourable senator took the Committee through the answer given and made some observations about it. 1 gather that the purpose in doing that was to get on the record the point of view that he holds in relation to the answers as provided. 1933 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - lt was to obtain rectification in regard to the attitude of the Department. 1933 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - That is the point to which 1 was coming, in getting on to the record his views, the honourable senator has made inherent in his comment the suggestion that the responsible Government department should look at the views expressed. He has suggested that there is an equity in the situation and that he would want some rectification of it. All I can say to the honourable senator at this time is that I will have his views as he has expressed them transposed from Hansard and directed to the relevant department. I am not certain that this is the Department of the Treasury because I would think that the point of view expressed by the Treasurer, would be one for a legal view as to the procedures adopted by commissioners in relation to the Commonwealth Employees' Compensation Act. It may be that the views as expressed by the Treasurer (Mr Bury) have come from the Attorney-General's Department. However, I will faithfully see that this is done. That is as far as I can go. 1933 KVK 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator Mulvihill asked a question in relation to loan management expenses. The answer that I have in relation to this item is not pertinent to the point that the honourable senator raised in relation to a particular journal. Properly the matter would need to be looked at. Consequently, 1 will need to take the question on board and get a reply to him on that matter. 1934 KTA NEW SOUTH WALES ALP 0 0 MCCLELLAND, Douglas Senator Douglas McClelland - I take advantage of the debate on the estimates of the Department of the Treasury, particularly in relation to the Commonwealth Superannuation Board and the Defence Forces Retirement Benefits Board. I will be critical of the Commonwealth Superannuation Board for forcing me, as a member of the Parliament, continually to have to dig for information. It appears to me that there has been an attempt by the Board to hide information which has been genuinely sought about the administration of the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund. Seemingly one has to dig and delve by way of placing questions on the notice paper before one can receive even what one might regard as a halfhearted answer. During the last sessional period [ placed a question on the notice paper. I though it was a simple and succinct question. It was: To what companies, organisations or individuals, if any, has the Commonwealth Superannuation Board loaned money over the last 5 years? How much was involved in each loan, and what rate of interest was charged? I would have thought that the answer to be provided to that question would have been simple. It was on 19th August last that the Minister representing the Treasurer (Senator Sir Kenneth Anderson), as reported on page 59 of the Senate Hansard, provided me with a great number of details about loans that had been made to what one might refer to in the broad as local government organisations. For instance, he mentioned the Hunter District Water Board, the Housing Commission of New South Wales, the Bathurst City Council, the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works and a great number of other organisations which in the broad might be categorised as local government organisations. But being of the belief that money from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund was not being loaned to only governmental or semi-governmental organisations, I placed another question on the notice paper on 16th September this year. I asked the following question: Further to the reply provided to Senator McClelland on 19th August. . . . containing details of Commonwealth Superannuation Fund investments in Commonwealth stock, local government authorities, banks and other institutions, have any companies, organisations or individuals had loans made available to them which have been secured by mortgages of land or property; if so, which companies, organisation or individuals have received loans by way of mortgage of land or property, and at what rate of interest, over tha last 5 years, from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund? 1 mention that question to indicate that it was basically covered by the first question that I had posed to the Treasurer (Mr Bury) during the last sessional period. Yesterday the Minister representing the Treasurer came up with an answer that in addition to the matter set out in Hansard of 19th August loans were made available to companies, organisations and individuals secured by mortages of land and real property to the extent of $15,8.90,000 in 1965-66, $3,510,000 in 1966-67, ?15,355,000 in 1967-68, $8,219,000 in 1968-69 and $20,643,000 in 1969-70. I want to know why the Department could not have provided me with this additional information when I posed during the last sessional period the question to which I received a reply on 19th August. That answer should have covered the additional details that were provided to me only yesterday, because my simple, succinct question posed last sessional period was: To what companies, organisations or individuals, if -any, has the Commonwealth Superannuation Board loaned money over the last 5 years? Because I dug for additional information I have been able to ascertain that some S63m that has been loaned by the Board over the last 5 years had been excluded from the answer provided to me on 19th August. So far as this Parliament is concerned, as the custodian of the people is money, it is just not good enough on the part of the Superannuation Board to treat us in this manner. We have a responsibility to a large number of people. We members of the Opposition have a responsibility to a large number of unions, and when unions request us to seek information of this nature, and it is not readily forthcoming, one can understand the reasons for suspicion on the part of unions and union members. I urge the Minister representing the Treasurer to make some inquiries of the Superannuation Board to find out why this additional information was not readily forthcoming in the earlier reply I received on 19th August. The reply I received yesterday went on to state: The Superannuation Board, which includes a member elected by the contributors, who is a party to all investment decisions, enters into private negotiations when a loan is to be secured by a mortgage of land or real property. Such negotiations are confidential between the Board and its client and reflect the established practice for lending institutions such as the Superannuation Board. Hie .Board does not, therefore, publish details of individual mortgage investments. That might be fair enough. I suppose one can regard it as a financial arrangement existing between the Board and the Board's client in much the same way as a transaction between a commercial bank and its client would be arranged. But 1 ask: If the information about the loans made available to the local government organisations can be made public, why can this additional information not be made public? Why is it sauce for the goose but not for the gander? On behalf of public servants, who are very interested in this matter, 1 suggest that details of these transactions should bc made public. After all, it is Commonwealth public servants' money, and 1 understand that the policy of the Commonwealth Superannuation Board - the Minister can correct me if I am wrong - is not to advance loans from the Superannuation Fund to public servants who are anxious to secure loans at a reasonable rate of interest for the purchase or the construction of a home or for other purposes connected with their family welfare. Yet we find that over the last 5 years more than S60m has been loaned to private individuals, organisations and companies from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund, and this information is now to be regarded as confidential. Firstly, as a member of Parliament, T take umbrage at the cavalier manner in which my first simple question was brushed aside, T suggest, in a deliberate attempt to hoodwink me into believing that money from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund was made available to local government or semi-governmental institutions only and that no loans were being made to private companies, organisations or individuals. I have now received additional information that over the last 5 years about $63m has been advanced to private companies, organisations or individuals, but 1 have been told that the information about these loans, as distinct from loans to local government organisations, are to be regarded as confidential between the Board and the borrowing clients. I raise these matters and ask the Treasurer to investigate them further in order to ensure that next time we members of Parliament seek information from the Commonwealth Superannuation Board there will be no attempt by the Board - or by any Government department for that matter - to hide behind a smoke screen and give the impression that no loans are being made to private organisations or individuals. Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSON (New South Wales - Minister for Supply) (1 1 .35) - T do not subscribe to the strong views expressed by Senator McClelland on this matter. It is true that there may have been some margin of error in the interpretation of his original question and his subsequent question. In his original question he asked for information about individuals, and he now protests that this information was not made available to him. It was only in answer to his subsequent question that he was told that advances were made, but he was not given information about the particular individuals to whom these advances were made. Conceding that point - only marginally and not in the strong language which Senator McClelland used - he then went on to argue against the proposal that information about loans should not be held to be confidential. He draws an analogy and says that because information about loans made to public authorities, including local government authorities, is made available, information about loans to individuals or to companies should also be made available. I suggest to him that he cannot sustain that argument to any degree because it would in fact prejudice the business which may be transacted between the Superannuation Board and these individuals and companies. Individuals and companies have the right to have information regarding their business transactions regarded as confidential. If the information was to be bandied around in documents there would be a tendency for them not to transact any business. These transactions are subject to taxation. They are subject to all the laws of the land. This policy of not disclosing information about individuals and companies would not be peculiar to the Commonwealth Superannuation Board. It would apply to every financial institution of which I am aware. It is true that information concerning corporate bodies and the like could be tabulated, but information concerning individuals and companies should not be tabulated. If a director of a group of companies went along and transacted business with a finance company or with the Superannuation Board and if the details of that transaction were to be bandied around, obviously the director would have to make a judgment as to whether he wanted to do business with the finance company .or with the Superannuation Board. I find it difficult to accept the argument which Senator McClelland set out to sustain on that score. The question which Senator McClelland asked was drawn in a particular way which did not attract the answer he wanted. He asked a subsequent question and received an answer which referred to the total number of loans made - which information, incidentally, is to be found in a Treasury document. Senator McClelland now argues that the question should be answered with particularity. It is not the policy of the Superannuation Board to do that. It is a matter of judgment. Senator McClelland expressed the view that the Superannuation Board should disclose this information. My view - and I am sure it is the Government's view - is that such disclosure would operate against the effective working of the Board in this field. 1936 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I appreciate the answer which the Minister gave me to the question I raised, but I am of the opinion that as the Commissioner is appointed by the Department of the Treasury, he is responsible to the Treasury. My complaint when I spoke previously was that here was a case where the Commissioner had acted outside the legislation. He was found to have acted not in accordance with the legislation. 1 am seeking an assurance that in future he will act in accordance with the legislation. If in the future he acts outside the legislation, the Treasurer should not attempt to justify such action in reply to a question. I hope that those remarks will be conveyed to the Treasurer. The other question 1 raise refers to the Department's neglect to take responsibility for and to give consideration to the interests of injured workmen. The Department, which administers the Commonwealth Employees Compensation Act, has promised for the last 5 years that a completely new Act will be introduced, and that this new Act will bring compensation payments into line with those that are recognised as the standard for compensation payments to employees. I believe that either at the end of last year or at the beginning of this year - I am inclined to think that it was at the end of last year - this matter was listed on the notice paper of the House of Representatives. We hurry to pass legislation which protects every other section of the community, but we do nothing about changing the provision of the Commonwealth Employees Compensation Act which are far inferior to those operating in all the States, lt is true that last session we passed an amendment to the Aci which was designed to increase the present rates provided in the Act, but we have not for years had a look at. the overall question of workers compensation. For 5 years we have had promises from the Treasury that something will be done, and the matter has been on the notice paper of the House of Representatives for some considerable time. But this is the last matter to receive consideration. Apparently time does not permit us to do something for these injured workmen who must suffer, f do not know for how long this state of affairs is to continue. Unless someone coinplains about it, it will continue. I think it is essential that we should do something about this legislation which affects a large section of our society. New legislation should be brought down for humanitarian reasons alone. It would appear that the Government, which considers the interests of industry, commerce, the farming sector and shipping, is not prepared to consider the welfare of the worker. I ask that the introduction of a decent Commonwealth Workers Compensation Act should be expedited. 1936 7V4 Queensland 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES - I am concerned about the matter which Senator McClellandhas raised. 1 am concerned that the Minister could not accept the view that information regarding loans which are made by the Commonwealth Superannuation Board should be made available. The pattern is broken here. As was indicated by Senator Mcclelland, information concerning loans made to public authorities is made available and documented. But for some reason information concerning loans which are made to private groups is not disclosed. 1 cannot accept this at all. There is no assurance from the Minister that this $60m does not flow perhaps to a merchant banker and then flows from the merchant banker into the general speculative area of financing in Australia. This cannot be denied except by producing the actual figures and documenting the loans, the interest paid on the loans and so on. There can be no excuse for the nondisclosure of the details of this very substantial amount of money which belongs to the Public Service. 1 should imagine that this money would be directed only into gilt edged areas. It comes to me as a surprise that such a large sum of money could be loaned under what is virtually a secret arrangement. For the life of me I cannot see why the Government could not disclose details indicating that the money has been made available to various financial institutions. Has the money been passed into a sector which enables the building of. shall I say, luxury units on the Gold Coast and thus have the effect of impeding the Government's policy to restrict the building industry so that inflation can be controlled? Is it possible that this $60m could flow into other areas of speculation which could affect the stability of the economy? All these questions need to be answered because $60m is a substantial amount of money. I cannot understand why a company which borrows from the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund would not be prepared to disclose that it has borrowed this money and the terms on which it has borrowed it. Any person who borrows any money from any financial institution these days seems to have those details revealed. An ordinary person who borrows from a hire purchase company will have the details of that financial transaction revealed in various gazettes - and so it ought to be. There ought not to be any flow of money from a fund of this type to another area without it being disclosed to the Parliament. 1 really do think that the Government ought to reconsider this and make certain that the details of that lending are tabulated and documented as all other details have been when the money has been made available to local authorities. I would have thought too that there would not have been any need for the Superannuation Fund to lend to the private sector. There is certainly a demand throughout Australia by semi-governmental authorities for this money and it would serve the country far better for it to be directed in this way - especially since it would be disclosed - than have it secretly passed elsewhere. There was another question raised by Senator McClelland in which I am particularly interested. How is it that Commonwealth public servants have not been able to have access to this Fund in which there is a surplus? How is it that they have not been able lo borrow from this Fund for home building purposes? If one is insured with any other insurance company and wishes to build a house one can obtain a good substantial loan from that company. The public servant is committed to insure himself with the Fund and cannot insure himself elsewhere because he would overinsure himself and limit his available income for normal expenditure. Yet he cannot draw on the Fund in a time of need when he wants to build a substantial home - or even, shall we term it, a not so substantial home of, say, 16 squares which would cost somewhere around $18,000. He cannot obtain the money elsewhere through the normal government channels because the maximum loan is $8,000. He has to fall back in most cases, when building a house in this range, upon an insurance company. The public servant is completely committed to the Fund. He has virtually no access to his own money for his own needs. If there is a surplus surely the Fund could come up with some sort of arrangement to provide money to Commonwealth public servants for home building purposes. If the Fund continues to deny this opportunity, especially when there is a surplus, then I say that it is denying justice to the public servants and denying a service which all insurance companies supply to their clients. There is another matter [ want to raise on behalf of Senator McClelland who was unable, because of the time factor, to include it in his speech. 1 would like the Minister when he answers to take into consideration that it seems most discriminator)' that the wife of a public servant, should the husband die, receives at the maximum five-eighths of the husband's superannuation. The main contribution to the payment of superannuation must come out of the household budget because most husbands do not restrict their pocket money to pay superannuation contributions. Should the wife die after the husband has retired the husband is still paid a full superannuation pension. In addition, if both the husband and wife die and there are children under the age of 16 years left the pension is drastically reduced and there is not sufficient to maintain the children or keep them at school until such time as they can receive a reasonable education. This to me is discrimination. I would like the Minister to tell us why this happens. In these 3 areas alone the Superannuation Fund, those who administer it and the Government which perhaps directs its policy or in some way can influence its policy have been sadly lacking in considering the needs of the public servant. I cannot see any justice in any of these areas: Firstly, the non-disclosure of investments; secondly, the non-availability of loans for home building purposes, and thirdly, the discrimination against dependants. Having regard to these three anomalies I would say that the sooner there is an investigation into the operation and administration of the Superannuation Fund the better. Senator Sir KENNETHANDERSON (New South Wales - Minister for Supply) (11.51) - I only want to say that the honourable senator has expressed a point of view on matters of policy regarding the Commonwealth Superannuation Fund. They are not matters that I could be expected, nor would I wish, to respond to when dealing with the Estimates. All I can say is that I will relate the expressed point of view to the Treasurer (Mr Bury). That is all I can do. As for the first matter that Senator Georges took up, which was a reiteration of the point of view expressed by Senator McClelland, some details of the totality of these funds are shown in the Auditor-General's report. As 1 said before, it is not the policy to give information in relation to companies, organisations or individuals in regard to the investment of money by the Fund. It is a matter of policy. The honourable senator might say that it is wrong but all I can say is that I will convey his point of view to the Treasurer. The honourable senator would not expect me to argue it whilst dealing with the Estimates. It is a matter for the Fund lo look at in the light of what the honourable senator has said and I do not want to repeat the answer which I gave to Senator McClelland on that point. I think that acceptance of the view expressed by the honourable senator would mitigate against the success of the Fund. After all. the Fund has money to invest under a certain charter and it does that. Its responsibilities in the matter are quite clear. It has to invest in such a way as to satisfy the requirements of the Government and the Auditor-General and it has to do it at the very best advantage to itself, lt does not have the responsibility of Government fiscal policy, as Senator Georges' argument tended to suggest. Finally, of course, there is an employees' representative on the Fund. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Proposed expenditure - Advance to the Treasurer, S20.000.000- agreed t.?. Defence Services Proposed expenditure $2.1,724,000. Senator BISHOP(South Australia) (H.491-1 move: That the proposed expenditure be reduced bv SIO. as an instruction to the Government that it should move for the appointment of a joint committee to inquire into and report upon the Australian Defence Forces in relation to: Pay and allowances of all personnel; Provision for the re-training of officers and men; Housing, and Educational facilities for the children of servicemen. The Opposition proposes the appointment of a select committee because it considers that what has been done in the past with respect to the general conditions of Service personnel and what is now proposed by the Government are not satisfactory. [ am quite sure that honourable senators will recall that over the years there have been many complaints and much dissatisfaction. During the past 3 or 4 years to my knowledge, when trying to keep pace with increases in pay which should be applied to members of the defence Services, a number of our committees have been faced with the problem that, because of the processes of back-dating, there would have to be retrospective payments. One committee of the Senate was opposed to retrospectivity. This fact alone creates disabilities. The whole process of granting fair rates of pay and appropriate conditions to members of the Services was not adequate. Late last year, after great protests and a large number of resignations from the Services, the Minister for Defence (Mr Malcolm Fraser) decided to set up a committee, but during the first months of operation of that committee it became apparent that it could not handle the situation that was developing in the services. There has been wide dissatisfaction about conditions and pay. We are all familiar with comments that have appeared in the Press, including comments by serving personnel who decided to flaunt the regulations and came out in support of increased pay, increased transfer allowances and better housing. We know, too, that members of the families of servicemen - wives and dependants - have taken the opportunity to express wide dissatisfaction about such matters. Their comments have appeared in the Press over a period of 2 or 3 months and, to some extent, are still appearing. This has been a long-standing problem. In the Budget an allocation of $1, 137m is proposed for the defence services, yet we have nol found a means of giving serving members of the forces a fair go. That is the reason for our motion. Honourable senators are familiar with the great controversy which is concerning people in the community. Only recently they had the opportunity of seeing a discussion and hearing various points of view in a session of the 'Four Corners' programme. Points of view were adequately put by persons who had been serving officers of high rank and who mentioned some of the problems which have contri buted to resignations .mci to the general feeling of dissatisfaction. In recent months we witnessed an instant reaction to Service wages and conditions following the national wage case. Some 200 serving ratings in the Royal Australian Navy walked off 5 ships and almost instantaneously the Minister for Defence approved a wage increase for them of $8 a week. This was a most unusual circumstance in the Australian defence scene. Nothing similar had happened before. The Government, the Department of Defence, and heads of the Services recognised that there were great injustices and accepted actions by serving officers and men that in other days might have been regarded as mutinous. 1 agree that on this occasion the Government sensibly blinked its eye at what was taking place and attempted to correct the situation which had developed over the years. Currently we have the situation where resignations from the forces have reached alarming proportions. There must be a reason for this position. The situation must be considered against the background of what has been taking place with serving men and officers. Up to now no lasting solution to the problem has been proposed by the Government. Let me refer now to the rate of resignations. Five years ago there were 13 resignations from the Navy, 10 from the Army and 47 from the Royal Australian Air Force. In 1969 the figures were 28 for the Navy, 98 for the Army and 150 for the Royal Australian Air Force. In July and August of this year there were 9 resignations from the Navy, 70 from the Army and 23 from the Air Force. This year the Minister for Air, Senator Drake-Brockman, pointed out that the Royal Australian Air Force had lost the services of 28 pilots, including pilots of such rank as senior flight lieutenant and squadron leader. I am sure that all honourable senators will remember what the Minister said and welcomed it. He made it very clear that in his opinion at that time there should have been increases in salary. He criticised the standards of pay and said that he would do what he could to increase them. On 19th August the Minister for the Army (Mr Peacock) said that in respect of Army Intelligence one lieutenant-colonel had resigned and 5 majors and 5 captains had either resigned, retired or been transferred, perhaps to the Citizen Military Forces. It has been mentioned that the late Senator Cohen was told by the Government that the cost of an officer graduating from the Royal Military College at Duntroon was $56,000. We know that it costs a lot to train an officer and we know that the present situation is most unsatisfactory. We have read the expert opinions of people like Sir Henry Bland who at one time was Secretary of the Department of Labour and National Service. He is an expert on matters of management, employment and economy. He became Secretary of the Department of Defence and retired because of the effluxion of time. He recently made some observations about the general situation obtaining in the defence Services, to which I will refer presently. These matters should be considered. The committee which the Government proposes will not deal with these general background matters. There is need for an open inquiry, such as is proposed in the Opposition's motion, so that the real position of the Services and what its members are entitled to in respect of pay and conditions may be considered. Let me refer to Sir Henry Bland's observations. He said: Maybe the process of producing the military man has not been sufficiently adjusted to lake account of the sorts of developments 1 have mentioned. . . . No organisation gives more attention to, or devotes more resources to, or spends more money on, training than the armed forces, and ours are no exception. One of our generals once told me he estimated that one-fifth of his service life had been devoted to training. The needed review calls for the aid of educationists and others outside the Services. Calling for review are the value of the training, the character of training, training methods and techniques, the posting system that generally treats the instructor function as no different from most other functions in the Services, the resources devoted to training, and so on. I cannot read all of his opinions but, as honourable senators know, they are founded on a lifetime of experience in these matters. He continued: The rotation of posting practices of our own Services are, I suspect, at the root of the current concern over conditions of service. The disruption of family life, including children's schooling, which these practices cause is a prime element, I believe, in the resignation of Service personnel and failure to re-engage. There has been some recognition of the situation. If honourable senators examine the 'Defence Report 1970' they will see that the Minister for Defence has drawn attention to some matters which relate to the dissatisfaction with Service conditions and contribute to the growing number of resignations. He said: The level of recruitment this year, the rale of engagement and the extent of officer wastage, particularly in the RAAF, are causing some concern. . . . There are many factors which influence the attractiveness of Service careers. One important aspect is the frequency of postings involving a change' of location which is of particular concern to the married member with children at school. The impact of Vietnam involving 12 months tours of duty for members serving there and associated sea going service for RAN personnel affects this problem, but a full examination is being made in an endeavour to reduce posting turbulence to a minimum. He then goes on to refer to the need for suitable housing. So we have a background Of continuing dissatisfaction. The Government has put forward 2 proposals. One is that the present Committee might be able to cope with the general disabilities of ex-servicemen in relation to the Services and to the community generally. I want to refer briefly to the submissions which were made by the Returned Services League which pointed out the need for a much wider inquiry than that proposed by the Government. We must have an inquiry which will allow people with specialised interests to give evidence. It should be an open inquiry which does not in any way restrict the witnesses who are subject to the standards of the Commonwealth Public Service and to the procedures which are currently and traditionally part of the traditions of the armed Services. There must be a new consideration. The only new consideration which the Opposition considers would be satisfactory is the need to look at the whole question of the Services, including the social environment and the family separation which comes from posting, reposting and reestablishment. In these days it must be considered as a matter of great importance to what extent the prestige of the soldier in the community ought to be reassessed and somehow improved. This is one of the considerations to which the Committee might refer. The proposed inquiry is too restricted. As honourable senators know, it will be headed by Mr Justice Kerr, who is a judge of the Supreme Court of the A.C.T. and a member of the Commonwealth Industrial Court. The inquiry will be held in camera. It will not be a continuing review of the kind that is most necessary. It will be restricted. It is presumed that the inquiry will take at least 12 months. It is an inquiry set up for a special purpose when what is needed is an examination of servicemen's pay and conditions and of all the things that go to make up their role in the Services and in the community for which they should be adequately compensated. We know that they are not so compensated. We know that they are not compensated in respect to their pay. We know that some short term adjustments have been made which have partly satisfied the serviceman, but at the same time resignations have increased. This applies to the ordinary ranks as well as to the officers in the 3 Services. We know too that there are general complaints about the standard of housing and the rates which are paid by servicemen for housing. In many cases serving officers and men have to pay more for a house than public servants do. Often the accommodation is not adequate. New consideration must be given to civil retraining and to the needs of the serving officers and the other ranks when their time is up, so that they can be placed in the community. We must see that because of their service they are not discriminated against relative to people in the community generally. So we have a position where, because of the general development in the economy, the inducements to work outside the Services are greater than those to work inside. We have it on record in the Senate, as well as everywhere else, that rates for skilled personnel are better outside, conditions are better outside and the person has a greater opportunity of promotion and of getting the sort of things which he needs for his family. Because of the need to conserve time I propose the amendment as a proposition which is most necessary. It will allow an open inquiry. It will do more than what is now being proposed by the Government in respect of these matters. 1941 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I do not want to belabour the point, but I support to the hilt all that Senator Bishop has said. I know from recent experience that there has been considerable dissatisfaction amongst the Jervis Bay naval personnel, as the Minister representing the Minister for Defence would know. In the Estimates Committee my colleague Senator Devitt raised the question of the rigidity of fringe benefits. I instance the eligibility of naval personnel from HMAS Melbourne' for the Malaysian clasp and certain rights in relation to war service homes. I know that, overall, the serviceman is innately loyal to his obligations, although there have been occasions, as Service Ministers know, when there have been some very definite, visible expressions of discontent. 1 do not want to canvass them unduly. I know from talking to wives of servicemen that there is no doubt that they will not continue to stomach some of these rigid interpretations in the 1970s. These are the things which justify, as Senator Bishop stated, a complete overhaul of the broad position. I take the opportunity while 1 am on my feet to direct to the attention of the Department of Defence some of the abnormal delays associated with decisions. The present Minister for Defence (Mr Malcolm Fraser) seems to have his own system. ( shall use as an example the rifle range at Byron Bay. The local council and some of the parkland groups raised a question about the future of this rifle range. They said it had been used very rarely. Initially the Minister disputed that. At the behest of Councillor Donohue of the Byron Bay Shire Council I raised the matter again. He contended that there was another rifle range within about 8 miles which could absorb the rifleman's activity. For the last 5 months I have received, every month, a very polite acknowledgment saying that the matter is being looked at and assuring me that a decision will be made. lt baffles me why, op such a minor matter as the occupancy of a rifle range, the Minister should take so long. In this instance the New South Wales Wildlife Service is interested in one section of the rifle range for bird life wetlands. In another section the Byron Bay Shire Council has an interest for housing development. It all seems to be such a minor matter. I cannot understand why it should take so long for a clear cut decision to be made. In conclusion, I return to my initial remarks relating to what Senator Bishop said appropos to Service conditions. There is no doubt that we have a new breed of persons in the Services today. I repeat that perhaps far too often the decisions that have been made following manifestations of discontent largely come within the category of too little too late. 1942 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - 1 also support the remarks of Senator Bishop and the amendment which he has moved. I refer to Division 602 - Recruiting Campaign - subdivision 1, item 02 - Proportion of salaries of staff of Commonwealth Loans Organisation. 1 want to know how the proportion of salaries of staff of the Commonwealth Loans Organisation becomes a commitment of the Department of Defence. I presume that the loans are essential for defence requirements, but why should they be grouped under the heading Recruiting Campaign', permitting the Department to show the figures as concerned with recruitment? The result seems to me to be false. There must be an explanation for its inclusion in the recruiting campaign item. One would question the success of this campaign when, as we have just heard from Senator Bishop, it would appear that the numbers we are succeeding in getting into the defence forces are being lost just as fast. Can the Minister give me any information of the intake from the recruiting campaign into the various Services over the 12- monthly period, in view of the fact that we will pay $1,500,000 for advertising the recruiting campaign in 1970-71? The other question I want to raise concerns Division 609 - Defence Aid for South Vietnam, $3,304,000. Australia did not give defence aid to this country in the last financial year. However, looking at Division 608 - Defence Aid for Malaysia and Singapore, it appears that the defence aid given to these countries has been reduced by a similar amount to that which has been given to Vietnam - from $8,207,000 last financial year to $5,500,000 in the current appropriation. It appears that this amount has been transferred to defence aid that is to be given to South Vietnam. I cannot recall the Parliament having a discussion on what aid we should give to South Vietnam other than the military aid that we are giving at present. We have not been told for how long we will be committed to giving this aid or what the nature of the aid is to be. We have not been told whether the aid will be in the form of a grant of money or in the form of materials. We have not been told what the aid will be used for. 1 thought that the situation in South Vietnam had reached a stage where that country could take over it own defence and that the activities of Australians in that country would be concentrated on the pacification programme and in helping to develop the country. However, under this appropriation we are giving a direct vote for defence. I cannot recall discussion or consideration of whether it would be wise to provide defence aid. Before we make gifts to South Vietnam for defence I think wc should have some assurance that the aid will be used for the purpose for which it is given. I would like to have any information that can be obtained on the nature of the defence aid which is to go to South Vietnam. I would also like to know for how long we are to be commited to this payment and also the authority for the payment. 1942 JZQ New South Wales LP Minister for Supply 1 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON (12.17) - Perhaps it would be logical to deal first with the last matter that has been raised. Senator Cavanagh has asked about defence aid to South Vietnam which amounts to $3,304,000. Australia has agreed to undertake a comprehensive programme of civil, military and defence support aid to South Vietnam extending over a 3-year period. This is the answer to the first point which the honourable senator raised. 1942 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - And this will recur every year? 1942 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON Yes, because this is the first year. This vole has been created under the control of the Department of Defence to take charges relating to, firstly, the provision of personnel for military advisory training and civil action and similar schemes carried out by the Australian forces in Vietnam: secondly, accommodation and equipment for the Nui Dat training centre; and thirdly, military and supplementary military aid to South Vietnamese forces. The estimate of $3,304,000 provides, firstly, for personnel costs, $1,496,000: secondly, the Nui Dat training centre,$199,000; and thirdly, military and other equipment, $1,609,000. I think Senator Cavanagh drew a comparison between the estimated expenditure for defence aid for South Vietnam, which is a new line estimate, and the estimated expenditure for defence aid for Malaysia and Singapore. Defence aid which is given to Malaysia and Singapore is at the end of a cycle, whereas aid given to Vietnam is at. the start of a new cycle. In the series of approvals a total of $45,128,000 has been made available to provide a programme of defence aid to Malaysia and Singapore for the period up to 31st December 1970. This expenditure, of course, is the ultimate in that programme. This is the general reason for the difference between the 2 estimates. Senator Cavanagh also referred to the recruiting campaign.I think he made the point that a proportion of salaries paid under this estimate went to the staff of the Commonwealth Loans Organisation. This item provides for the payment of 1 71/2 per cent of the salaries of the staff of the Commonwealth Loans Organisation partly employed in recruiting duties. The increase in planned expenditure is required to meet the cost of salary determinations brought down during the 1969-70 financial year. The motion which has been moved by Senator Bishop is a vehicle to reduce the Defence Services appropriation by $10. We all understand that in the parliamentary sense this motion expresses a criticism of the Department of Defence in relation to the question of pay and the conditions of service.I believe that we should vote on this question and dispose of it in one way or the other. I would say, however, in response to the case put by Senator Bishop, that a committee of inquiry has been set up which will examine the question of the pay and conditions of Service personnel. This committee will be chaired by Mr Justice Kerr. The committee will also comprise Lieutenant-General Sir John Wilton, who until recently was Chief of the General Staff, Mr S. Landau, who is the Secretary of the Department of the Navy, Mr E. G. Deverall, who is a Commissioner of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission, and Mr H. T. Rogers, the personnel manager of Australian Paper Manufacturers Ltd who has been included to provide representation from outside of the Services, for obvious reasons. I am informed that the committee is to have its first meeting this week. Contrary to what Senator Bishop said - he made this comment in passing - I think I should make the point that this is not to be an open inquiry; it is to be a closed inquiry for very good reason. 1943 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator Bishop - I said that. 1943 JZQ 0 0 ANDERSON, Kenneth Senator Sir KENNETH ANDERSON - I think the honourable senator put it the other way round. However, this inquiry is to be closed for the very good reason that we want Service personnel to be completely uninhibited in expressing the views that they want to express about their pay and allowances. In fact, we want to encourage Service personnel if they feel so moved, to go along and expres their views. The fact that an inquiry on this matter is about to commence is an acknowledgment by the Government that there is a need for examination. Therefore, in the circumstances I believe that a vote to reduce the estimate by $10 is not timely and I would say that the logical thine to do would be to put this matter to a vote. It is true that in (he field of the Defence Forces Retirements Benefits Scheme which relates in some directions to the conditions of Service personnel an all party parliamentary committee of both Houses has been set up. Therefore, the Government is aware of the need for an examination of this matter. Having this in mind, 1 think it is logical that we now vote on the matter. Question put: That the request (Senator Bishop's) he agreed to The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator Bull) 22 23 Majority . . . . 1 AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Department of Works Proposed expenditure, $68,668,500. Civil Defence - Repairs and Maintenance Proposed expenditure, $11,000. Civil Defence - Buildings, Works, Fittings and Furniture Proposed expenditure, $8,000. 1944 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I refer to Division 580 - Administrative. Those concerned with the administration of the Department seem determined that the activities of the Department in South Australia will not advance. This has caused concern to the extent that the Premier of South Australia has felt impelled to write a letter to the Prime Minister (Mr Gorton). It is possible that the Commonwealth in Adelaide is renting more office accommodation from insurance companies and other firms than it is renting in any other city in Australia. At the same time the Government owns property in Currie Street. Adelaide, Sufficient to build a huge complex which would cater for all Commonwealth departments. It has held this property for many years and at present the property is being used as a car park. It seems to be a profitable enterprise for the lessee. At the same time in appears that the Commonwealth has some kind of desire to pay for the multi-storey buildings of insurance companies. The activities of the Department in South Australia are declining. In the 3-year period 1965-66 to 1968-69 South Australia's share of Commonwealth capital works expenditure was 4 per cent of the Australian total. This could be justified only if there was no profitable activity in which the Commonwealth could engage. However, this is not so. There are profitable activities. I cannot comprehend why there is a determination to depress activity in South Australia to the extent that only 4 per cent of total capital works moneys are expended in that State. Ours is the only State in which employment in the Department of Works has declined. Over the last 6 years the employment figures have fallen from 1,700 in mid- 1 963 to 1,075 in mid-1969. There is a tendency for the Department to withdraw work from South Australia while at the same time the Commonwealth pays high prices for rental accommodation. I ask the Minister the reason for this and whether he will consider giving South Australia its proper share of Commonwealth works in proportion to population, just as the population of South Australia pays its proportion of Commonwealth revenues. 1944 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - In dealing with Division 580 - Administrative -I support what Senator Cavanagh has said in relation to the proportion of Commonwealth works being carried out in South Australia. I particularly want to refer again to the subject I brought up at the Estimates Committee meetings which related to the question of when the Department will be commissioned to build a Commonwealth centre. The Minister will recall that his own support for such a proposition goes back to the time of the Adelaide Festival of Arts when he made the point in a newspaper comment that there obviously was a need for a Commonwealth centre in South Australia and that he was giving some consideration to this and other matters of expenditure in South Australia. Since that time a number of representations have been made and I admit that the Minister has considered them and given replies. Unfortunately, at this stage his replies indicate that there is not on the drawing board as yet a proposition for such a centre. We have found out recently that there are 26 Commonwealth departments in South Australia which are leasing premises. The Commonwealth is paying $2m a year in Adelaide in rental charges or in leasing arrangements. From memory the amount now being paid is almost double what was paid 5 years ago. While 1 accept what the Minister said in his replies in this place and what he and his officers said in the Estimates Committee that the Commonwealth is aware of the advantage in building its own accommodation where to do so is an economic proposition - that is one of the guiding principles - 1 would ask the Minister whether he can bring to finality the considerations which are being given to the building of a suitable Commonwealth centre in South Australia to house some of the 26 departments there and save the Commonwealth a considerable amount of the $2m that is now paid out to private people such as insurance companies. 1945 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - 1 am grateful to Senator Cavanagh and Senator Bishop for reminding me of this matter. But of course I need no reminder because I have assured them from time to time when they have questioned me on this subject that the whole of the works programme for South Australia is constantly in my mind. 1 repeat what was said before the Estimates Committee that the policy of the Government is, where it is economic - and usually it is quite obviously economic - to buy its own land and to build the freehold premises rather than go in to premises on a rental basis. With this in view a proposition was before the Government some 12 months ago but it was not acceptable and was referred back to an interdepartmental committee whose report on a Commonwealth centre and other projects in Adelaide and elsewhere in South Australia can be expected to be produced within a month or two. With regard to the percentage of capital works for South Australia, T remind Senator Cavanagh and Senator Bishop that I produced in the Estimates Committee an accurate summation of the capital works programme for the last 5 or 7 years which, according to my recollection, showed that an increased percentage of the total works programme has accrued to South Australia. T can assure the honourable senators that in addition to the projects announced for South Australia other projects are being programmed. The honourable senators will understand, I hope, that it is not for me as Minister for Works to initiate proposals. Tt is for each department which has a requirement for a government building to put forward a proposal, and if it is of a major nature it goes before the Government. If it is of a minor nature it goes before the Department itself, lt is in that process that a department may bring a public works proposal into the civil works programme. 1945 ISW Tasmania 0 0 WRIEDT, Ken Senator WRIEDT - I wish to pursue a matter raised by Senator Cavanagh and it relates to the proposed expenditure under Administrative in the Department of Works. Earlier this year I wrote to the Minister concerning the expenditure by the Department of Works in the various States over the past 6 years. 1 understood the Minister to say a few moments ago that the proportion of expenditure in South Australia in relation to the total expenditure by the Department had increased. According to the figures which were supplied to me this is certainly not correct. Just briefly I might mention that in 1963-64 expenditure by the Department of Works was $12.3m. In 1968-69 it was $ 1 0.9m. In that same period the total expenditure by the Department had increased from $135.4m to S246.1m. In other words there was an increase of about 70 per cent in the total expenditure and an actual reduction of 10 per cent in the expenditure for South Australia. There may be an explanation for this and I would appreciate the Minister's comment on it. I want to look at the overall picture because he has just made the point that presumably the Department invests money in the various States according to the requirements of the Commonwealth as a whole and quite obviously there is no planning to equalise in some way the distribution of expenditure. 1 think it is true to say that both Tasmania and South Australia at the present time have problems with their economies and both are looking for additional investments in their States. But between the years 1963-64 and 1968-69 we find that there have been spectacular increases in Department of Works expenditure in certain States and they are the main States. For example, the expenditure for New South Wales increased from S27.5m to $56.7m: Victoria from $ 18.9m to $43.4m; Queensland from S9.8m to S22.6m; Western Australia from $4.9m to $13.8m: and for the 2 other States, South Australia and Tasmania, there was a reduction from $12.3m to $10.9m and $J.9m to $1. 8m respectively. These reductions occurred despite a very large increase in the total expenditure of the Department during those years. 1 might point out that I am not taking any particular year and saying that South Australia or Tasmania is not getting its share. I am taking it over a 6-year period which gives a very good indication of the trend. Insofar as Tasmania is concerned this matter is of prime concern. It is interesting to realise that Tasmania has progressively received a lesser percentage of the Department's total expenditure in that 6-year period. In 1963-64 we received 1.42 per cent of the Department's expenditure; in 1964-65 it was 1.26 per cent: in 1965-66 it was 1.81 per cent; in 1966-67 it was 0.852 per cent; in 1967-68 it was 0.528 per cent and in 1968-69 it was 0.732 per cent. Tasmania has received a lesser percentage despite the fact that it has 3.1 per cent of the Australian population and it contributes 2.57 per cent of the personal net income tax to the Treasury. This is something on which I have spoken before in this place. The points raised by Senator Cavanagh highlight the situations in which these 2 States find themselves and 1 would think that this applies much more to Tasmania than to South Australia. 1 ask the Minister whether he would care to comment on the obvious weighting of expenditure by his Department in the main States without commensurate expenditure in the 2 smaller States. The other point I want to make concerns the apprenticeship training scheme of the Department. We know that the Department of Works has a training scheme for apprentices and we all realise the importance of providing proper and adequate training for apprentices in all trades. I understand that at the moment the Department is not training any apprentices in Tasmania despite the fact that it is training apprentices in all other States and even in the Territory of Papua and New Guinea, the Northern Territory and the Australian Capital Territory. I ask the Minister if it is his intention to extend the training of apprentices to Tasmania? 1946 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - My remarks relate to the same Division as was mentioned by Senator Wriedt. I thank the Minister for Works (Senator Wright) for his reply. There seems to be some discrepancy between the figures which those on this side are quoting and the Minister is quoting. I am wondering whether these figures are taken over different periods. I gave the figures as supplied to me for a 3-year period. The Minister showed the increase in activity in South Australia over a 5-year period, ls the base year in one case different from the base year in the other case? 1 do not know. I accept the Minister's statement that his Department is an authority- only for clients - that is. other departments - and that it builds in accordance with the decisions of other departments. lt could well be that my remarks today could be referred to later when we consider the estimates of those departments concerned. 1 turn to the second question raised by Senator Wriedt in relation to apprenticeship. I was interested to read the evidence presented to Estimates Committee C on this subject. The Minister, 1 believe, circulated some 4 papers- 1946 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - 1 am sorry, but I am having difficulty in hearing the honourable senator. 1946 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - No-one has ever had that difficulty before. Although the Minister, 1 believe, circulated papers to the Estimates Committee showing the number of apprentices and in which States they were employed, I have not seen such papers and I do not know the figures for those in apprenticeship employment in South Australia or in any of the other States. I recognise the explanation by the Minister that the Department was not employing its quota of apprentices under the various awards because its capability to train them is somewhat limited by virtue of the nature of the work that it does. The Department of Works carries out few construction jobs. After preparing plans and calling tenders it lets a contract for construction of a project to a builder. The work force of the Department is engaged mainly on repairs and maintenance. Whether under such conditions it would be advisable to accept apprentices when all round training cannot be given to them is questionable. The result of such training may be to produce someone at the end of an apprenticeship period who cannot compete freely on the labour market in the use of the skills that be is supposed to have been taught. This brings up the important question of why the Department is letting all of its contracts to builders. Why is it not a building authority? Why is it not building Commonwealth Government buildings? Has the ability of this Department to erect types of buildings as cheaply as contractors been studied? If the Department of Works is to be part of the Commonwealth's scheme of activities in development, this work must become an essential part of the activities of the Department of Works. This Department is a main Commonwealth Department which has some responsibility to see that the utmost opportunities are provided for the training of men to a skilled degree. Yet, it is unable to play its proper part in the training of skilled building tradesmen because of a lack of opportunities to perform the types of works that it undertakes and contracts to someone else. The work that the Department lets out at present is work that could be used in the training of skilled tradesmen. I would think that a study of the report presented on the housing industry to the New South Wales Parliament recently would show the need in any proper housing programme to have skilled tradesmen to perform the work of building construction. With our increased growth through migrants and our natural birth rate increase, building activities in the future must expand. But we are not training persons lo meet the requirements of the building industry. The various authorities which have the capability to train are restricted in their opportunities to train. This Department in particular is restricted in its ability to train because it does not carry out construction work itself except on a limited scale, ft does not do any major construction work. This is one fault in the Department that T think, needs rectification. I can think of nothing better for a progressive Minister to do than to ensure a scheme by which the Commonwealth would develop its own building authority to erect at least some types of buildings. Perhaps at this stage the Commonwealth Department of Works could not or should not provide plant for multi-storey build ings. Nevertheless, many contracts for construction work which could be undertaken by the Department on a day labour basis are let to building contractors. The Department is justified in refusing this work in view of its responsibility to provide facilities for the training of skilled men, only if the cost of such work is exorbitant in comparison with what it would be by private contract. I ask: Has any study been clone on the work that this Department could undertake such as the building of the additions at the Adelaide Airport or any other construction work of a similar type? Why is it impossible for this Department to become a building authority so that it can play its part in the Commonwealth scheme of training skilled tradesmen in the proper ratio to employees as awards permit? 1947 KQN South Australia 0 0 LAUCKE, Condor Senator LAUCKE - Before the Minister for Works (Senator Wright) replies, may I ask a question? On the subject of the allocation of funds for the public works programme in South Australia, Estimates Committee C was told that $17m or 5.5 per cent of the total allocation had been appropriated in this respect. I seek clarification from the Minister as to whether this money or this percentage has as a component of its total, any expenditure on defence activities in South Australia such as the Woomera establishment? 1947 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Senator Cavanagh raised the question of apprenticeship and the question of whether the Department of Works should construct its works by day labour or by contract. I can assure the honourable senator that the latter question has received serious consideration by the Department and the answer in favour of economy and efficiency invariably is returned in support of major works being done by contract. I want to tell Senator Cavanagh that the Department of Works maintains a day labour force of approximately 8,000 personnel and has maintained that day labour force at about that figure for quite a few years. That force carries out the work which is appropriated lo it including smaller jobs, jobs that are of a maintenance description or jobs that are in an isolated capacity. Regarding his suggestion that the Department does not play its role in the apprenticeship scheme, I would invite the honourable senator to peruse the records of the deliberations of Estimates Committee C where the Director-General presented to the Committee the degree to which apprentices are employed. I may say that on the professional side the cadet apprentices are being increased in anticipation of the increase in the work load of the Department. With regard to what the honourable senator has raised and what Senator Wriedt referred to and Senator Laucke has just referred to, f direct Senator Wriedt in particular to page 17 of the Hansard report of Senate Estimates Committee C where it will be seen that last year's programme for South Australia was $13.022m and that this year it will be $17. 18m. So my claim that there has been an increase is, 1 submit, justified. Those items which are set forth in the document entitled 'Civil Works Programme 1970-71* at page 92 include for South Australia such items as the erection of the main exchange, $51m; the erection of a building engineering services centre, $432,000; and the erection of a mechanical aids depot, $454,000, just to instance what at a glance seem to be the 3 principal items. The honourable senator will note that there are in the South Australian programme projections for other buildings which, if they are not past the point of submission to the Public Works Committee, soon will be. I was asked whether the Woomera range buildings are included in the civil works programme. So far as the Department of Supply is concerned they are included, but I could not give the honourable senator absolute certitude. With regard to Senator Wriedt's reference to Tasmania, T have examined that question as to the proportion of works done. Including all works done by the Department in the last year it came out at just on 3 per cent, which, I am reminded by the Department, corresponded with the exact percentage that the Tasmanian population bears to that of all Australia. But Senator Wriedt will give us credit and himself pleasure, I have no doubt, by looking at page 19 of the Hansard report of Estimates Committee C where he will see that the Department was judicious enough for my satisfaction to put as the first item on the list of major works for the present programme the new Commonwealth offices for Hobart, with a proposed expenditure of $4.6m. 1948 ISW 0 0 WRIEDT, Ken Senator Wriedt - When that one is finished the proposition will go back to I per cent again. 1948 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - lt cannot be kept up just for the sake of keeping a level. 1948 JYA Tasmania 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - 1 refer to Division 508, subdivision 2, item 15, which shows the proposed expenditure for fees of private architects, engineers, quantity surveyors and other consultants as $4,850,000. I have here a break-up of this expenditure between the various States as shown in the Auditor-General's report. On page 317 the report shows that in the last year there was an amount of $726,749 paid to consultants in Victoria and Tasmania. The two States are grouped. I would like to have a breakdown of those figures from the Minister so that we can see how much applies to Victoria and how much applies to Tasmania out of the $726,749 and know also how much of this appropriation is expected to be spent in each of those States rather than collectively in the coming year. Sitting suspended from 1 to 2..15 p.m. 1948 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Earlier I raised a question concerning the Department's ability to train apprentices, and the Minister replied that the Department was playing its part in the apprenticeship scheme. 1 claimed that it was not and could not play its part in such a scheme by virtue of the nature of its operations. ] suggested that the Department was not engaged in a variety of work which would enable it to train apprentices and that the Minister might consider introducing day labour construction work. The Minister replied that a study which the Department had made on the economy and efficiency of such a scheme indicated that it could not compete with private contractors. I query very seriously how the Department can claim any credit when it is unable to compete with private enterprise in the construction field. The sole proprietor of a firm in South Australia which presently is undertaking work for the Department of Works was formerly the manager of a pickle factory. How can experience gained from being the manager of a pickle factory qualify someone to establish a building firm which is able to carry out work for the Department of Works? Something is wrong with the Department if it cannot compete with private enterprise in the building field because of lack of economy or efficiency. While I accept that possibly private enterprise can build more economically than perhaps the Government can, there is a tendency for the Government in its operations to appoint men with qualifications other than those related to ability in the craft or ability to organise. If private enterprise can carry out this work more efficiently, it does not speak too well for the Department, and it is time that the Department considered competing with private enterprise in the building field. This is essential, no matter what the cost, because the Commonwealth has a responsibility to train manpower for the whole of Australia, lt does not matter whether the Commonwealth uses those skills when the manpower has been trained. It is performing a service for the whole of Australia. The Commonwealth Government has a responsibility to train people to meet the Government's programmes and the requirements of the Australian population. The Minister says that the Department is playing its part in the apprenticeship scheme but this view is not shared by Mr Pearce, of the Department. I do not know who Mr Pearce is. but when he appeared before Estimates Committee C he presented a list of trades and the breakup in the States of tradesmen and apprentices. The Minister passed a copy of the list to Senator Milliner who was asking questions at the time. Senator Milliner then asked: Whilst I am on this subject. 1 think it was said that the day labour force does not lend itself to the employment of apprentices. Could you add lo that? Mr Pearcereplied: A good deal of our day labour activity does not lend itself readily to apprentice training because of its widely scattered nature, the small numbers of people generally with whom we have to work within Australia and the comparatively high incidence of unskilled people in our day labour force. In a day labour force of about 8,500 there are in fact only about 3,750 tradesmen. Many of these are operating as individuals in isolated areas where it is not really practicable lo give adequate training to apprentices. Later on Senator Milliner said: 1 think it would be advisable to provide a further breakdown in any State you care to lake, preferably Queensland, giving reasons why there is such a low proportion of apprentices. I am not particularly happy with the explanation we have been given in view of the fact that, from memory, the carpenters and joiners award provides for one apprentice to every 2 or 3 tradesmen. You have 21 apprentices for 137 tradesmen. The Minister then said: I will see that that is the subject of specific consideration and report. Today the Minister says that the Department is playing its part in the apprenticeship scheme, yet Mr Pearce believes that the Department cannot play its part because of the ratio of apprentices to tradesmen which is laid down by arbitration. The trade union movement opposes any reduction in the ratio which is laid down because of what it terms the exploitation of juvenile labour to the detriment of skilled tradesmen. Therefore, it is an offence to employ a greater number of juveniles than that laid down by arbitration. From the list of tradesmen which was presented to Estimates Committee C, it appears that the department is not training the number of apprentices as laid down by arbitration. The reason for this - and I accept Mr Pearce's word - concerns the type of work which the Department is doing. If the Department is to play its part as one of the branches of the Commonwealth Government and provide skilled labour, it also has to provide work for the purpose of training apprentices. If the Department is not able to provide the work economically and efficiently in competition with private enterprise, a deep look needs to be made into the activities of the Department to ascertain why it cannot compete wilh private enterprise. The document which was circulated by the Minister to Estimates Committee C indicated that 1,080 carpenters and joiners and 188 apprentice carpenters and joiners were employed by the Department of Works in Australia and in Papua and New Guinea. Of course, under the ratio which is laid down by arbitration the Department is entitled to employ some 362 apprentices. Here is a Department which is employing half the number of apprentices which arbitration requires it to employ. The list of trades in which the Department employs apprentices indicates that not one apprentice bricklayer or apprentice plasterer is employed by the Department. These 2 trades are essential parts of the building industry. One could say that possibly bricklaying is the most essential part. There is an acute shortage of bricklayers throughout Australia, but the Commonwealth Department of Works is not contributing to the training of one apprentice in this most important trade. How can the Minister say that the Department is playing its part in the training of apprentices when in fact it is not doing so? An examination of the position shows that the Department has been found wanting. It must therefore look further into the reason why it cannot extend its activities for proper training and why. because of. a lack of economy and efficiency, it cannot compete. The Department must find out why and see that it is able to compete. 1950 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I feel I should make some reference to several points in answer to various questions that were asked. Senator O'Byrne mentioned the amount that is estimated to be paid in fees to architects, engineers, quantity surveyors and other consultants and pointed out that this year the amount sought was $4,850,000. Last year the amount spent was $4,395,550 and if honourable senators care to look back into the estimates for previous years ti will be seen that the figure has grown to the present $4.8m from a figure much lower than that. Four or 5 years ago it was of the order of $2m or even less With the increase in our programme it is obviously necessary to get consultant specialists to advise upon big projects and to do design work for medium and small projects. It will be expected that the fee bill for the Department will probably increase. If honourable senators will look at the Hansard record for the Estimates Committees they will see that we have the problem of increasing fees within these various professions and upon that point the Senate will be interested to know that we have, I think, practically reached agreement with the professions. Reference was made by Senator Wriedt to the question of apprentices in Tasmania and in the Estimates Committee to which I referred Mr Pearce said that we have no apprentices in Tasmania. A subsequent report supplied to the Committee shows that there were in fact 2 apprentices in Tasmania. Now, with regard to Senator Cavanagh's reference to apprentices in Queensland, he has dispensed with the necessity for me to refer him to page 24 of the Committee Hansard where Mr Pearce, an officer of the Department, explained our position quite fully. Supplementing that, as we promised to do in the passage to which the honourable senator referred, 1 have in recent weeks circulated to members of the Committee the information that the relevant legislation in Queensland, the Building Trades Apprenticeship Regulations, provides for a maximum of I apprentice to every 2 tradesmen. The ratio of 21 apprentices to 137 carpenters and joiners in Queensland means that there is 1 apprentice to 7 carpenters. Where the Department employs apprentices in workshops which offer satisfactory training conditions such as continuing supervision and variety of work an apprentice-tradesman ratio of 1 in 4 is attained. This occurs in the metal and electrical trades. It is also noteworthy that in the Department's joinery shop in Brisbane the ratio is 1 in 3. However, the Department's activities in the building industries generally involve small itinerant groups whose work is usually confined to minor maintenance and repair work, often in remote localities. These circumstances limit the facilities available for apprenticeship training in the trades concerned. Senator Cavanaghwill notice that wc were able to point out to the Committee that during the last 12 months our apprentices in a number of States have received education awards including Commonwealth awards, the Outstanding Apprentice of the Year in Victoria, the Outstanding Apprentice in the Refrigeration and Automobile Chamber of Commerce, special prizes in advanced plumbing and Apprentice of the Year in the Northern Territory. So that, coupled with the fact that I have stated as to the prescribing of a maximum number of apprentices and the degree of proficiency that seems to characterise apprentices in the Department of Works, fully justifies, I submit, the statement that I made that we are playing our part. I could go on and recite 3 or 4 pages of the document that was circulated to members of the Committee with regard to Queensland, but I am sure if I indicate to Senator Milliner and Senator Cavanagh, who took the Queensland position up, that I would be willing to see that they get a copy of this document at a later date, that they would not wish me to take up the time of the Committee reading it. 1951 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator Cavanagh - You have said enough to confirm what I said. 1951 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I thank the honourable senator. Now, with regard to the works in South Australia that were referred to before lunch may I refer the honourable senators from South Australia specifically to the Hansard of Estimates Committee C at page 220 where I would like Senator Wriedt particularly to note the percentages given which. 1 think, justify my claim. The percentage of the programme has grown from 3.7 per cent in 1966-67 to 4.2 per cent in 1967-68, to 4.5 per cent in 1968-69, to 4.8 per cent in 1969-70 and this year the percentage is expected to be 5.5 per cent. 1951 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - I am sorry I must continue my questioning on this subject. The Minister thanked me when I interjected and said that he had confirmed what I said, but I was making a criticism of the Department because of its refusal to engage in activities of a type which will permit it to train apprentices. Both Mr Pearce and the Minister, referring to what is happening in Queensland - and I am using Queensland as an illustration because we have received so much information on it - said that the Department is not capable of training the number of apprentices that any award will permit. The Minister said that the ratio of apprentices to tradesmen in Queensland is 1 in 7. Where they can receive satisfactory training the ratio is I in 4 but this shows that there must be a lot of other areas where the Department does not offer satisfactory training so that the ratio drops to 1 in 7. This is my complaint, that the apprentices do not get the variety of work which they should in operations carried out by the Department. The Department does not train the number permitted by the various awards. We see that in the joinery shop in Brisbane the ratio is I in 3 and 1 do not think there can be any criticism of that. In the carpenters award the ratio is 1 to 2 and this award restricts the number of apprentices to stop exploitation of juvenile labour. It is expected that the building companies will employ the maximum number of employees but, because of subcontracting, they are not able to guarantee continuity of work. Someone must fill this gap to meet Australia's requirements for building construction and there is no better organisation than the Commonwealth Department of Works. But this Department cannot do this because it does not have the variety of works, lt is not engaged in construction works where it can train construction workers who are needed in Australia. It cannot compete in efficiency and economy with private builders. Shame on the Department! Something should be done. We have been informed that the apprentices the Department trains are outstanding. Such apprentices have the benefit of Commonwealth and special awards. The Department takes credit for training a few outstanding apprentices, but so it should. It has 4 tradesmen training each apprentice, but the Department is not supplying the requirements of Australian industry, lt is no credit to the Department that one of its apprentices can secure a Commonwealth scholarship. The Department is not contributing to the Government's intention of developing skilled building workers in Australia, and this is the basis of my whole complaint. The Department must enlarge its operations so that it can play a part in the training of skilled building trades workers. The Department says it cannot compete in economy and efficiency wilh private builders. This indicates that there is something wrong with the Department which should be rectified. 1951 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I refer to item 13 of subdivision 2. lt relates to Ihe armoured car payroll service. Do the people who provide this service in New South Wales have to tender for the work every couple of years? What is the background to this item? I refer also to item 16 concerning the Commonwealth's contribution to the Australian Road Research Board. We have a Department of Shipping and Transport and I wonder how the obligation is imposed on the Department of Works to make this relatively small contribution to the Australian Road Research Board. What are the products of this group's research? Does it supply the Department of Works with information or does the information filter through the Commonwealth to the various State Ministries? 1 should also like some information on item 18 which relates to the Commonwealth's contribution to the Australian Fire Protection Association. 1952 ISW Tasmania 0 0 WRIEDT, Ken Senator WRIEDT - I shall not delay the Committee unduly but I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister about apprenticeship training in Tasmania. Senator Cavanagh referred to a table which gives a breakdown of the number of apprentices being trained in the States and the Territories of Australia. Tasmania does not even get a mention. I can only assume that the gamble was taken that this would not be noticed. This is nothing new, of course, in the Government's attitude generally towards Tasmania. Presumably it took a shot in the dark and said: if we do not include it, no-one will notice it and it will be forgotten'. The Minister defended his Department's record in respect of apprenticeship training. I ask .the Minister whether he is satisfied with the Department's efforts in this field in Tasmania. Let us be specific about this. If Tasmania were receiving the share to which it is entitled under the Government's scheme there would be approximately 18 to 20 lads being trained. According to the table to which Senator Cavanagh referred no apprentices are being trained in Tasmania. According to the report of the Minister's sub-committee there are 2. 1952 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator Wright - On what basis do you arrive at your figure of 18 to 20? 1952 ISW 0 0 WRIEDT, Ken Senator WRIEDT - As a percentage of the total number of 675 being trained. If we allow for only 3 per cent of that number for Tasmania its share would be 20. The Minister will not argue over one or two. The 2 main industrial organisations in Tasmania which employ apprentices are the Electrolytic Zinc Company and the Hydro-Electric Commission. Both organisations this year had twice the number of applications for apprenticeships that they could handle. Does the Minister consider that his Department is doing sufficient in Tasmania in this respect? 1952 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - In replying first to Senator Wriedt'slast question I point out that if he looks at the Department's annual review for the year 1968-69 he will see that the day labour force employed in Tasmania in 1964-65 was 81; in 1965-66 it was 95; in 1966-67 it was 69; in 1967-68 it was 72 and in 1968-69 it was 76. One must envisage the number of trades into which those men would be separated and the type of work on which they would be employed. One will readily see that there is no real opportunity for the employment of apprentices with a miscellaneous day labour group of that small size. It wholly misconceives the basis upon which the Department of Works operates to suggest that it is an apprenticeship training department. lt employs day labour only for maintenance work, for outlying work and for work in areas where it is uneconomic to expect a contractor to extend his undertaking. Therefore, in Tasmania, one would not expect many apprentices to be employed. So few were they at the time the committee was considering this matter that our information was that no apprentices were employed in Tasmania. However, as I told Senator Wriedt, my subsequent information is that at the end of June 1970 there were actually 2 apprentices employed - one was an apprentice carpenter and the other an apprentice painter. I think it would be quite natural that employment in the Electrolytic Zinc Company and the Hydro-Electric Commission, to which Senator Wriedt referred, would have far greater appeal to- apprentices than would the Department of Works day labour force numbering between 60 and 80 in the circumstances 1 have mentioned. While I am referring to Tasmania, Senator Wriedt also asked me what proportion of the consultant and professional fees were attritubted to Tasmania. He referred to page 317 of the Auditor-General's Report where it is indicated that the amount spent for Victoria and Tasmania in 1969-70 was $726,749. We have not the actual statistics of the payments for Tasmania, but my best information is that, it is about $10,000 for the year. I regret to add that, in regard to the new major work that is commencing construction there - that is to say, Commonwealth offices - amounting to $4. 6m, economy was achieved by transferring plans that had been developed for a similar building in Brisbane and adapting those plans to the site in Hobart. That led to the employment as the principal architects in respect of that project of the original Brisbane architects, they employing for the purposes of supervision and local preparations their Hobart agents, Mr Shugg's firm. Senator Mulvihillreferred me to Division 580 subdivision 2 item 13 - Armoured Car Payroll Service. The amount for which we are asking this year is $62,000. This provision is to cover contracts for armoured car and escort services under contracts arranged by the Commonwealth Stores Supply and Tender Board. This is an indication that it is that Board which arranges the general services for armoured car payroll services. Allowance has been made for expenditure on existing services at higher rates than those applying in 1969-70. The higher rates have been approved by the Commonwealth Stores Supply and Tender Board. Division 580 subdivision 2 item 16 refers to the Commonwealth's contribution to the Australian Road Research Board. The amount estimated for this year is $114,000. This item is to record the Commonwealth contributions to the Australian Road Research Board. The functions of the Board are to provide a national centre for road research information, the correlation and co-ordination of road research activities and to make available to appropriate authorities information relating to these matters. The current policy of the Commonwealth is to contribute 10 per cent of the annual budget of the Board, the amount for 1970-71 "being $1,140,000. I might say for Senator Mulvihills satisfaction that the Board has been responsible for evolving research that has been of invaluable economy in road construction. Item 18 of subdivision 2 refers to an amount of $5,000 as a contribution to the Australian Fire Protection Association. The Association is a nationwide, non-profit making technical and educational organisation aimed at safeguarding life and property against fire. The Association provides technical advice on fire prevention, and collects and disseminates information on fire risks and occurrences. In view of the Department's general responsibilities, including building research and the Commonwealth Fire Board, Treasury suggested that the Department assume responsibility for the payment of a grant to the Association on behalf of the Commonwealth. 1953 KB9 Western Australia 0 0 WILKINSON, Lawrence Senator WILKINSON - My question is quite a short one and I do not think the Minister will have much trouble with it. 1 really intended to ask this question when we were dealing with matters concerning Estimates Committee A, but it comes up again under the estimates for the Department of Works. I refer to Division 582, subdivision 1 item 03 - Department of the Cabinet Office. The amount of the vote for works this year is $300. The Department spends about $250,000 a year and the works cost last year was in the region of S36.000 to $37,000. This year it is only $300. I am wondering why there has been this sudden change. Are they starting to close down the Cabinet Office. Have they got all they want? Why is it only $300? Can the Minister give me an answer? 1953 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Provision is made for the estimates expenditure this year against an unexpended balance of $119 brought forward from last year on furniture and fittings requisitioned in 1969-70. New items for purchase will total $400, resulting in a total programme of $519. The decrease of $36,580 in the estimated expenditure to $300 from the actual expenditure for 1969-70 is a result of the completion of furniture and fitting requirements for new premises last year. 1953 JYA Tasmania 0 0 O'BYRNE, Justin Senator O'BYRNE - Will the Minister please give me a reply to the question I asked earlier as to the breakdown of the combined amounts that were spent on the fees for private architects, engineers and quantity surveyors for Victoria and Tasmania? Those amounts are combined. I would like to know how much is attributed to Tasmania and how much to Victoria. 1953 KMX Victoria 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - I ask a general question of the Minister in respect of the whole of the Estimates. I do so because Estimates Committee C examined the Department of Works and made certain recommendations. I think it is appropriate that if recommendations are made they should be brought into the Senate for an opinion thereon to be expressed by the Minister. The Committee made a statement in its report as follows: That, during the course of taking evidence, the Committee was concerned with the lack of clarity and appropriate information in the Budget papers in the presentation of figures relating to programmes and expenditure for the Department of Works. The report goes on: The Civil Works Programme and Particulars of Proposed Expenditure contained in the Appropriation Bills Nos 1 and 2 do not disclose all the construction works under the control of the Department of Works being, or to be undertaken for clients. Secondly, there is no dissection shown of the appropriation included in the Appropriation Bills No3 1 and 2 or the Civil Works Programme which would enable a ready division of the Estimates lo show the work approved prior to the current financial year, the moneys which have been revoted and the moneys which are approved but will not be expended during the current financial year. The Committee is of opinion that the documents should clearly show the total vote proposed for new construction and the proportion of that amount which is to be expended in the ensuing year. I appreciate that the Minister is aware of the need for the Committee's concern, because it was expressed to him during the Estimates Committee hearings. I think that the Minister broadly agreed with the concern which was shown by the Committee, but I would be grateful if he would indicate whether it will be possible to meet the Committee's expressed concern and to have some alterations made in the presentation of the papers next year. I think it is important to the Senate, having regard to the fact that there are 2 Appropriation Bills, each with different functions and each covering different types of expenditure, and it is important that the details should show clearly those figures which will enable those functions, if they ever were to be discharged, to be discharged effectively. 1954 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - In answer to Senator O'Byrne, I did state, apparently during his absence temporarily from the chamber, that 1 did not have the exact figures relating to architectural fees which were paid in Tasmania and which constituted one of the items in the figure of $726,749 for 1969-70. However, these fees are of the order of $10,000. In answer to Senator Greenwood, I repeat what I said to the Estimates Committee that I share the disquiet of the Committee with regard to the lack of reconciliation between the presentation of programmes in the civil works field and the 2 Appropriation Bills. It will be one of my pleasures as well as duties to take that matter into consideration with my Department as soon as parliamentary duties permit the time that will be necessary for me to consider the revision of such a long-standing format as these documents. I will then arrange a conference through the Treasurer (Mr Bury) with his officials in the hope that we can get the civil works programme so formulated that we can study the whole programme and not merely part of it. We will then be able to show in the course of that programming how much of any individual job has been completed and what remains. This information will then be in a form that will readily reconcile with the 2 Appropriation Bills. This will be made available for the information of the Committee. These documents will be accompanied by a brief in the form that is usually supplied to the Minister but not hitherto to members of the Committee. This brief will be prepared in a really informative way so that members will gather from a mere perusal of the documents most of the substance of what they require. However, I could not seek to undertake to do this in the period between the time that the Committee sat and now. 1 would regard this matter as one which will possibly occupy my attention for 1 or 2 days on 2 or 3 occasions in the course of a period of 2 months. 1954 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - Without labouring the matter I would like to add a word in support of what was said by Senator Greenwood. Of course, what Senator Greenwood said has been answered by the Minister for Works (Senator Wright). But 1 would like to suggest something that might be considered by the Minister for Works and also by the Minister for Civil Aviation (Senator Cotton) who was also involved in the Estimates Committee hearings. Some of the Committees made a preamble to their report and picked out items such as that commented upon by Senator Greenwood. Committee D did this in respect of the Department of Works and suggested that consideration might be given to relating specific items from other departments to that department when they are dealt with but not to take them away from the group that is being considered by the Committee. My suggestion is that the Ministers might consider incorporating in the records oi today's proceedings the preliminary report of the Committee I do not mean that the whole voluminous report should be incorporated. I suggest that the comments which relate to particular suggestions from the Committee should be incorporated so that there is a record for those who were not able to attend the meetings of the Committee. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Proposed expenditure - Australian Tourist Commission, $2,350,000 - agreed to. Attorney-General's Department Proposed expenditure, $18,966,000. 1955 KMX Victoria 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - I refer to Division 131- Office of Parliamentary Counsel. This was a matter that was canvassed fairly extensively by Estimates Committee C whose report to the Senate on this aspect is as follows: When the Committee was hearing evidence relating to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, during consideration of the estimates for the Attorney-General's Department, the matter of delay in preparation of up-to-date sets of bound Consolidated Statutes and Statutory Rules was raised. The latest set of bound Consolidated Statutes is dated 1950 and of Statutory Rules, 19S6. Reference was also made to the late publication of annual volumes of Statutes and Statutory Rules. The evidence indicated that there was little immediate likelihood of up-to-date bound consolidated volumes of Statutes or Statutory Rules or of any satisfactory alternative being available in the foreseeable future. The Minister for Works undertook to take the matter up with the Attorney-General and have some decisive explanation by 31st March 1971. I raise this matter not only to draw attention to what the Committee recommended but to give some emphasis to the feeling which I think was shared by the whole Committee that the present situation is one which requires early decision and remedy. Not only members of Parliament are interested in understanding legislation which comes before the Parliament. Members of the public and those engaged in professional activities who must have access to the statutes also find that the present position is one which greatly impedes effective work. I sensed from the answers that were given to the Committee during the hearings that it is felt within the Office of Parliamentary Counsel that this position is exaggerated. I do not know what the Minister had in mind when he stated to the Committee, as appears in the report which the Committee has put forward, that he will have some decisive explanation by 31st March 1971. I think this involves a decision being taken as to whether we are to have future consolidations of statutes or a satisfactory alternative. As I see it the position emerges in three ways. Firstly, it is desirable for senators to have bound annual volumes of the statutes as soon as possible after the completion of the year in which the statutes have been passed. As I understand the position we received bound volumes for 1968 only some 3 or 4 months ago. Who knows when we will receive the 1969 volume? One would suppose that the 1970 volume will be received some time late in 1971 or in 1972. The second aspect which I think is important is that there should be some ready means of identifying the current position with respect to legislation which has been amended over a period on a number of occasions. I instanced during the hearings of the Committee - and I think other honourable senators had other examples - the Air Navigation Charges Act which was quite recently amended in the Parliament. When this legislation was before us, to ascertain what was involved in the amendment I had to refer to the 1957 consolidation of that statute and 9 separate amending pieces of legislation. All of this had to be perused before one could ascertain what the current position was. Even though this might be a highlighting example drawn from recent experience, my belief and experience have been that it is a pattern that occurs all too frequently. As I see it, it is not sufficient to be able to point to a consolidation of 1966 or 1967 if, since that date, there have been 2, 3 or 4 amending pieces of legislation. This all adds up to more work. It means that ascertainment of the law precisely in a statutory form is made more cumbersome and more difficult. I should have thought that there would be a better procedure for the presentation of statutes to enable an up to date consolidated Act to be available. I appreciate that this may mean that the old pattern of having consolidated statutes as of 1936 or 1950 will be superseded by a system which is gaining currency in, I think, Victoria and the United Kingdom whereby regularly consolidated individual statutes are being produced. I arn not sure that this alternative, satisfactory as it has been found in Victoria, ought to apply in the Commonwealth because with the passage of time I think there will be difficulties if there are delays in the work of either the Counsel's office or the printing office. What appears alarming to me is that this state of indecision as to which of the two alternatives should be adopted is one which has existed for the last 5 or 6 years and it still has not been resolved. I do not want to suggest by what I am now saying that 1 do not accept in its entirety what the Minister for Works (Senator Wright) has said as to what he is prepared to take to the Attorney-General (Mr Hughes), nor do I suggest that he is not as keen as I am to have the present situation rectified. But it is only by the persistence of comment and the emphasis that can be given to the fact that the present situation is unsatisfactory that the situation will be remedied. The third point 1 make relates to the statutory rules. I think the state of the statutory rules is even more parlous than that of the statutes. Although the last consolidation of the statutory rules was in 1956 there have been many instances since that time of regulations being amended many times and it is very difficult to pick up what the amendments are. There is not the same attention paid in the Senate to regulations and it is only when particular issues arise that one has to have recourse to them. Within the last 2 or 3 days one leading member of the Opposition relating details of a regulation was informed by the Minister that the regulation had been amended within the last year or two. This is a phenomenon which happens to all of us and one cannot be sure on every occasion that one has all the amending regulations. We in the Senate are dependent upon the very willing officers in the Records and Papers room. These officers must look through the papers and hope they have made a comprehensive study. Human fallibility being what it is, sometimes errors may occur. All this is designed to urge that the Senate acknowledge that due to the present position with regard to Acts and regulations, the ready information which one should be able to extract from them is not available to honourable senators in the form it should be. If - and I am speaking from some years experience in legal practice - the same position prevails in the legal profession then it represents an area in which more should be done than is being done at the present time. I hope the Minister will be able to make some response and indicate that this a concern which is shared by the Executive Government. 1956 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Perhaps I can clinch the argument I propounded when discussing estimates for the Parliament and the particular matter of the proper payment of salaries and allowances. For the purpose ot the present discussion I refer to Division 131 - Office of Parliamentary Counsel, subdivision 1, Item 03. My mind cannot immediately comprehend the First Parliamentary Counsel, who would normally spend most of his day in an office, having to spend money on entertainment, for instance, for the specific purpose of maintaining his office. I just point out that he gets a salary of ?22,750 and a tax free allowance of $1,500. 1956 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I note what Senator Cavanagh has said. No doubt it will be considered in relation to what Senator Sir Kenneth Anderson has said about the parliamentary provision. I am grateful to Senator Greenwood, as I was during the sittings of the Estimates Committee, for bringing this matter to our attention, f content myself with repeating what I am recorded in the Committee's report to the Senate as doing, that is that C undertake to take the matter up with the Attorney-General (Mr Hughes) and have some decisive explanation given by 31st March next. I feel I can add little to that. I have already communicated with the Attorney-General in detail on the discussions of the Committee. However, other things preclude any real consideration being given to the matter until the end of November when we will seek an opportunity to go into it purposefully in the sense that Senator Greenwood has suggested. 1957 KMX Victoria 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - I refer to Division 137 - Conciliation and Arbitration. Questions were asked in relation to these items of expenditure in the Committee and assurances were given that the details which were sought would be provided. They have been provided. Those details related to the expenses which are involved in the maintenance of the Industrial Court and the expenses of the judges of that court. The details indicate that the members of the judiciary who comprise the Industrial Court have not been occupied for anywhere near the total available time, even on reasonable working standards for the judiciary, in the course of the last 12 months. When looked at closely the figures represent a considerable period of underwork. I appreciate that the judges of the Industrial Court are occupied from time to time in other activities. The judges from time to time provide assistance in the Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory Supreme Courts; they attend the Supreme Court of Norfolk Island; they are available to preside over Courts of Marine Inquiry; and, increasingly in recent years, they have been appointed to conduct special inquiries. For example, Mr Justice Nimmo conducted an inquiry into the existing health services; Mr Justice Sweeney conducted an inquiry into salaries paid in colleges of advanced education; Mr Justice Eggleston for many years has been connected with the Company Law Review Committee and, as 1 understand it, has not been occupied at all with Industrial Court activities. All this adds up to suggesting that at the present time there is an over-staffing of the Industrial Court. I appreciate that the judges are appointed for life and that the status and necessities of the role of the judges require that they have a personal staff. What I am endeavouring to ascertain is whether the Government has any programme in mind which will rectify or remedy the situation or whether the situation revealed this year is likely to continue into the indefinite future. 1957 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I am unable to indicate that the Government has any programme in relation to this Court as comprehensive as that suggested by Senator Greenwood. I can do no more than refer his remarks to the Attorney-General for consideration. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Department of Labour and National Service Proposed expenditure, $14,088,000. 1957 10000 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Sir Magnus Cormack - We now come to another section of the Estimates. If it suits the convenience of the Committee I suggest we take the following together: Divisions 370 to 374; Division 755- Administration of the National Service Act; Division 75(5 - Post Discharge ReSettlement Training; Division 757 - National Service-Vocational Training and Technical Training; Division 758 - Commonwealth Hostels Ltd - Buildings, Works and Equipment - Exmouth Guest House. There being no objection, that course will be followed. 1957 KPG Queensland 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - I wish to make reference to some aspects of national service relating to Divisions 750, 755 and 760. All I want to refer to is the National Service Act and I particularly wish to raise those aspects which I have mentioned. Whilst it is known that my opposition to the National Service Act is fairly strenuous I think that while it is in operation we have an obligation to ensure that the people who do serve this country are properly provided for when they return to Australia. There is a fairly substantial sum appropriated for the administration of the Act but the appropriation for payments under the Defence (Re-establishment) Act under Division 760 has increased by only a very small amount. The appropriation last year was $568,700 of which only $471,907 was spent but for the current year the appropriation is many thousands of dollars less than for last year. I have had consultations with people in this place about this matter. Many of the youngsters who go overseas come from farming areas. If Senator Sim, who is seeking to interject, wants a confrontation I suggest that he- 1957 10000 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Sir Magnus Cormack) - I will look after Senator Sim. The honourable senator should address the Chair. 1957 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator KEEFFE - I suggest that the amount that is now paid under the Defence (Re-establishment) Act ought to be doubled or perhaps even trebled because no young person can re-establish himself in the rural industry with the small amount of money that he is now entitled to, nor can he re-establish himself after an absence of about 2 years from civil life in any small business undertaking. The payments made to persons who wish to continue or to take up a university course or some other tertiary education are not at all adequate in the circumstances. I ask the Minister: Does the Government have any intention to bring these payments up to 1970 thinking? The next thing I want to know is why there has been an increase in the administration of the National Service Act from an expenditure last year of $548,653 to an appropriation of $650,000 for 1970-71. Perhaps some explanation could be given as to why the appropriation this year for re-establishment loans and vocational training is about $48,000 less than last year when more youngsters are now coming out of the Army? 1958 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Mr Temporary Chairman 1958 10000 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Sir Magnus Cormack) - I point out that Division 760, National Service, Rural Occupations, Re-establishment Loans and Vocational Training, is not under analysis at the moment. 1958 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - May I state for the satisfaction of Senator Keeffe that this Division comes under the estimates for the Department of Primary Industry. But on the same theme, if I may I will refer to the university courses under Division 750. Senator Keeffe will notice that under subdivision 1 the vote asked for this year is $606,000 for payments under the Defence (Re-establishment) Act. I refer the honourable senator to page 615 of Hansard, Senate Estimates Committee C, where I made it plain that the actual amount involved in all in the technical and university vocational training of these discharged national servicemen is about $1m and there is another vote to cover the intervening amount. 1958 KPG 0 0 KEEFFE, James Senator Keeffe - How may I raise the matter of the other appropriation in relation to rural re-establishment? 1958 10000 0 0 TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, The The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN - When Senator Drake -Brock man takes charge of his share of the appropriations. 1958 KVK New South Wales 0 0 MULVIHILL, James Senator MULVIHILL - I raise a matter under Division 370 concerning the Department of Labour and National Service and I am subject to your ruling, Mr Temporary Chairman, on the procedure. My colleague Senator Bishop did raise with the Minister the finalisation of the last International Labour Organisation delegation that went overseas and the fiasco that occurred due to some cut off in expenditure by the United States of America to the ILO conference. 1 have previously indicated that some adjustment was made to 2 Australian trade unionists who had to turn back after they had got half way across the globe. I wonder whether the Minister could indicate at this stage whether there has been any clear cut instruction given to the Australian Council of Trade Unions about future delegations. Are they to be spread out? Are they to be limited or are Other nations, including Australia, to upgrade their grants to the TLO to make up for the vacuum created by the US when it reduced its expenditure considerably in this direction? 1958 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - It was a detailed instance that Senator Bishop raised in that Committee 1 think that Senator Mulvihill was present and he will recall ihat Dr Cook gave an answer to the effect that payments were made. 1 have no doubt that having had this experience those persons concerned with future meetings will try to safeguard against similar occurrences as much as is humanly possible. This is a matter which would not be expected to occur frequently. I have no doubt ihat the Department will give every sympathy to ensure that misunderstandings of that sort do not arise i? the future. 1958 K1Y South Australia 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - There are 3 matters which I want to raise and they relate to questions which were posed during the Estimates Committee C hearing. The first is the appropriation for Division 370, Administrative, within the Department of Labour and National Service. The Minister may recall a question put to Dr Cook that the arbitration inspectorate in Adelaide, which is centralised, ought to give consideration to providing inspectorate services to such places as Whyalla and Port Augusta. Dr Cook explained that what had been announced was the establishment of an employment office in those places but not inspectorate services. I have indicated that over the years there have been occasions both in respect to disputes and award infringements and also in respect to matters concerning young boys who have been retrenched from employment. Consequently a challenge arose as to whether these young men were properly protected under the terms of the Act and whether an inspector be appointed to these places. The Minister indicated that the matter would be distributed throughout his Department and there would be some consideration given to it and some reply given to me. Up to now I have not had a reply and I therefore place my remarks on record. I want to refer to an issue which was raised in the Committee and it applies to the Defence Services, Division 755, concerning the appropriation for the administration of the National Service Act. In August the Minister for Labour and National Service (Mr Snedden) supplied figures of the number of persons who had registered but who were not available for call-up. Those figures showed that in 1969 there were 2,038 and in 1970 the number had increased to 2,416. In view of the fact that a very small number of prosecutions have been made in both cases - 6, 7 or 9 - we tried to get information to confirm our suspicion that there has been some relaxation in the policy of the Government over the prosecution of young people who have not registered for service? I want to make it very clear that I am not advocating any stringent policy on this matter. I certainly would believe that a liberalisation of this sort of thing would be a good move. When this question as to how these numbers had increased was canvassed, the representative from the Department of Labour and National Service said that they would seem to be lost; that is, that they were scattered throughout the country and could not be found. Whether these 2,418 young people had been, in effect, left off the hook, if I may put it that way, or whether there was no positive action by the Department to prosecute them in the light of the current feelings of the Australian community was not fully explained. We were unable at that stage to get any figures. We were told that a further report would be given. The other question, on the same item, relates to the standards in the tests that these young people undergo. 1959 10000 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Sir Magnus Cormack) - To what are you referring now, Senator? 1959 K1Y 0 0 BISHOP, Reginald Senator BISHOP - I am referring to the administration of the National Service Act, under Division 755. I refer to the so-called educational tests which have been adopted by the Department of Labour and National Service in respect of those young people who are conscripted. A system of educational tests is followed which has been criticised by some people who resent the fact that certain young people are being rejected from the Army. I refer to cases which have been mentioned in the past where young people who volunteer for service in the Regular Army have been rejected because of so-called educational tests. Over the years, the numbers rejected have been very high. I might mention that, in trying to find out what the tests were, we were unable to get the particulars of the tests. No evidence is available from the Department as yet as to whether these tests are carried out by a local doctor who may be examining medically or whether there are some specialist facilities.- At the end of the consideration of this matter by the Estimates Committee, Senator Wright indicated that he would see that the matter was put in writing. As reported at page 614 of the Hansard report of Senate Estimates Committee C, the Minister is reported as saying: I think it will be more clear if it is put forward in a statement in writing showing where the psychology test, the educational test and medical test all come in. They may obviously overlap and then when we give the numbers I think the members of the Committee will have a clearer view ... Unless the answers have gone astray on those subjects - and I certainly have not received any answers - I ask the Minister whether he has any more information? 1959 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I have not had information, particularly on the question of inspectorate services, in the way in which the honourable senator would wish it. With regard to the reconciliation of numbers and the question in respect of medical tests and psychological tests, I inform the honourable senator that the details have not been analysed, but I assure him that be will receive this information in due course. 1960 K6F South Australia 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - On Division 755, I seek some information from the Minister for Works (Senator Wright) as to the activities of the Department of Labour and National Service. I desire to know this: When a decision is taken to send someone to gaol for non-compliance with the National Service test, is the Commonwealth responsible for the upkeep of that individual in gaol? I am concerned about the case of Charles Martin who at the present time is in the Adelaide Gaol - I suppose at some expense to the Government of South Australia. Is any payment made to the Government of South Australia as compensation for the cost of detaining a conscientious objector or a person who refuses to comply with the National Service Act, as Charles Martin does, in Adelaide Gaol? 1 ask the Minister also: What is the test regarding the application of the regulations that were discussed recently here. I refer to those regulations which permit the Minister for Labour and National Service to refer to a court for examination the conscientious beliefs of an individual who himself has not applied for exemption from service on this ground? What test does the Minister apply in determining whether he will or will not refer a particular matter to the court? Honourable senators will remember that, when we were considering this matter earlier, the Minister admitted that the Minister for Labour and National Service did have discretionary power. I would like to know how the Minister uses his discretionary power. In view of the figures that Senator Bishop just gave regarding the number of those persons who have not complied with the Act and the small number who have been prosecuted, I would like to have some information of the method of selection by the Minister of those to be prosecuted for non-compliance with the National Service Act. If there is to be a discretion in selection, I believe that a better selection could be made than is made today. Charles Martin, at present in Adelaide Gaol, is a carpenter. Last year, he received a degree in building technology at the Institute of Technology in South Australia. Obviously, he is a carpenter of some class who would qualify with regard to apprenticeship in the Department of Works. He has completed his apprenticeship. He has undertaken an additional course in building technology. He is an outstanding carpenter. Why this individual was selected for prosecution and gaoling instead of others in South Australia who have refused to comply wilh the National Service Act, I do not know. His contribution to society has been much more valuable than the contribution of some of the other persons who have not been prosecuted because he was in regular employment. There is a great similarity between his case and the case of Christ. They were both carpenters. They both preached peace and advocated peace throughout their respective nations. While I recognise that Charles Martin had no redress from the application of the Act I realise that neither would Christ if he was in Australia at the present time and continued preaching peace as he did. Martin is 24 years of age. With the knowledge that we have of Christ we know that he would have suffered the penalty for non-compliance with the laws of this country at the age of 24 years, some 8 years earlier than he did under the Roman governor. Like Christ, Charles Martin worked for his father as a carpenter in building construction. There is such a similarity that. 1 believe it shows the degeneration of our enforcement of this Act at the present time. 1960 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - Did not Christ say: 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and render unto God the things that are God's'? 1960 K6F 0 0 CAVANAGH, James Senator CAVANAGH - Christ, in his Sermon on the Mount said words to this effect: 'He that strikes you on the left side of the face, turn the other cheek'. Christ was the greatest peace advocate that history possibly has every known. Did he not say words to this effect: 'Shame on you for you know that your sword is covered with blood'? We find throughout history that men following in His occupation and in His footsteps have received similar treatment. Charles Martin, following in Christ's footsteps, receives no more salvation under this Government than Christ would if he were here at the present time. Those people in the world who have advocated peace throughout the centuries if they lived here now, came under the age limit and objected to this National Service Act would be put in gaol in Australia. The life of Charles Martin resembles the life of Christ, the great saviour whom we honour when prayers are said when the Senate assembles each day. Charles Martin resembles Christ in his whole preachings, in his occupation and in the fact that his employer is his father. The question I ask is; Why is this young man selected out of a number of people in South Australia to serve this penalty in a gaol in South Australia? 1961 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - I would not discuss the personal details of these individuals in public even if I had them. But I do not have the information which would adequately do justice to a statement of either case and thereforeI do not propose to discuss them. As to the tests which are applied by the Minister when he chooses to refer a case to a magistrate for decision on whether the person is a conscientious objector or not - that is to say whether he has a conscientious belief that he should not serve in any kind of military service - the Minister has a whole file before him with a summation from his officers from which it may appear that the man has simply adopted the wrong form or that he has inadequately stated his application for exemption on the grounds of conscientious belief, or it may be that by reason of circumstance it appears a reasonable inference to the Minister that there is a prima facie case for consideration by the magistrate. In all such cases the Minister's one criterion is to ensure, if there is upon the evidence before him any reasonable case for consideration of whether the party has a conscientious objection, that he should refer it to the magistrate to give that man the opportunity to claim, if he wishes, and to support by evidence, that he holds that conscientious belief. With regard to the question as to who pays the cost of maintenance of prisoners, I point out that any person convicted under Commonwealth law is, by arrangement with the States, received into a State prison under standing arrangements for the payment of maintenance. Proposed expenditures agreed to. Department of Education and Science Proposed expenditure, $129,478,000. National Service - Vocational Training - University Courses Proposed expenditure, $612,000. 1961 CJO Western Australia 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I move: That the House of Representatives be requested to amend the Second Schedule by reducing the vote - Divisions 230-246, Department of Education and Science, $129,478,000- by $2 - as an instruction to the Government that it should: use its good offices to secure the immediate publication of the Commonwealth-States survey of educational needs and make emergency grants accordingly; establish committees to examine and make recommendations on - the objectives and quality of Australian education; and inequalities of education opportunities, and establish continuing commissions to investigate and make recommendations on - pre-schools, primary and secondary education, tertiary education; such a tertiary commission to co-ordinate all forms of tertiary education including teachers colleges; and the co-ordination of all levels of education. The Opposition is making this request because it believes that in the debate on the estimates of the Department of Education and Science it is essential that certain well established policies of the Australian Labor Party be put before the Senate. These policies are policies which either in whole or in part are held not only by the Australian Labor Party but also by a number of responsible bodies throughout Australia dedicated to the needs and improvement of Australian education. I appreciate that there has been considerable debate in another place on the proposals which are contained in the motion which I have just moved, and for that reason I do not intend to spend as much time in speaking to the motion as I might have were this motion presented to the Senate in circumstances different from those in which we find ourselves today. I shall deal first with paragraph (a) of the motion. This paragraph deals with perhaps one of the most basic necessities of having a proper understanding of what the purposes of Australian education are, and without having this proper understanding it would seem to be impossible to improve in any way our educational system. If we do not know what we are trying to do, it would seem to me that it will be very difficult for us even to do what we are at present doing with any sort of sense, and certainly impossible to make any substantial improvements. Paragraph (a) requests that the Government should: use its good offices to secure the immediate publication of the Commonwealth-States survey of educational needs and make emergency grants accordingly; The Opposition appreciates that in any survey of educational needs unilateral action by this Government would not be sufficient; there would need to be cooperation with the States. The Opposition appreciates also that there are State governments with differing viewpoints and that there may well be - in fact it would be surprising if there were not - contradictory views expressed by the States on what the individual States regard as the needs of education within their own provinces. However, there certainly would be a number of basic requirements which without any ideological differences or without any differences of approach could be readily obtainable from all the States with the co-operation of the Commonwealth. It will need to be known to this Government, the Commonwealth Parliament, the State parliaments, the Australian people and in particular those people who are working in education precisely what the position is at the present time with regard to the adequacy of teaching staffs, the training of teaching staffs and the facilities such as buildings and equipment for the education of students at present attending institutions of learning in Australia. This information will have to be published. There will also need to be an examination to determine what will be the needs posed by any projected increase in population, particularly in those age groups who receive education. There also needs to be an examination of what occupations, what skills and what trades are those in which it is necessary to have a higher proportion of persons being 'trained and educated than at the present time. Paragraph (a) of the motion asks precisely for the publication of such a survey. Paragraph (b) follows, quite naturally, from paragraph (a). It calls on the Government to establish committees. We are not in any way being pedantic or dogmatic about how many committees there should be or about which persons or which classes of persons should constitute these committees, although it would obviously have to be understood that at least some of these persons would be experts within various fields of education. We call on the Government to establish committees to examine and make recommendations on the objectives and quality of Australian education and also the inequalities of education opportunities. 1 believe it is essential that the Government should have some guidelines as to what are the objective of our education system. Amongst industrialised Western countries, and indeed amongst those countries which have reached a sufficient stage of technical advancement to have fairly sophisticated systems of education, there are great divergences of opinion as to what are the goals of education. There are societies in which it is believed that the primary purpose of education is a narrow functional purpose; that the purpose of education is to train people to deal with the necessary machinery; to understand the instructions which they are given as they go around the streets; that certain people should be perhaps only literate and no more in order to be trained in some simple occupation and that other persons should be highly skilled in certain occupations which require technical expertise. Other people in advanced Western countries believe that there are other purposes in education. For example, if one narrows it down to 2 countries which are different in many respects - the United States of America and South Africa, at least so far as the white population is concerned - there is an insistence in the field of tertiary education at the university level that before one proceeds to special studies, such as the study of law, it is necessary that there should be a study of the humanities in any university course. In many countries the goal of education is to see that all those persons who axe capable of receiving it, whatever occupation they might subsequently follow and however, m the usual terminology, menial their occupation might be - and I for one do not agree that any useful occupation is a menial one - should receive it. It is believed that all citizens, however unskilled might be the occupation which they subsequently follow, should be trained in the humanities in order to obtain an understanding of their civilisation and the culture of their country, and indeed of other cultures. I do not believe that the Government has given a clear indication - and I think I could say that I do not think sufficiently clear indications have been given by any of the other political parties - as to the basic purpose of education in Australia. Is it merely to enable enough people to build houses or to drive engines or to fly aeroplanes or to practise the law or to extract tonsils or to rill teeth in order to fulfil the material requirements of society, with the remainder of the population needing only sufficient education to be able to understand the Canberra 'Sunday Post', provided that they can get through the misprints? 1963 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - Would you say that is the same as is in your own Party's platform? I think that it sets out the objectives very well. 1963 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I am glad that Senator Greenwood shows enthusiasm for the Labor Party's platform. 1963 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - No. I am interested to hear that you are not prepared to adhere to it. 1963 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - That 1 am not prepared to adhere to it? 1963 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator Greenwood - In what you have just been saying. 1963 CJO 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I do not quite follow the point of Senator Greenwood's interjection, but 1 will not labour it at the moment. Perhaps he was not listening to what was being said. But what I am saying is that I do not believe that in Australia there is a sufficiently wide recognition of the purpose of education - whether it is merely to provide narrow training in certain skills or whether it is to do something which is broader, wider and deeper than that. In the past it has seemed to me from various statements which have been made by some people who at least have held prominent positions in the Government, that the purpose of education in their minds is no more than to train people to read the instructions on the machinery. If I remember correctly, Sir Robert Menzies said on more Ulan one occasion that as far as he understood, scholarships should be awarded only to people who had particular qualifications and that the only people who should get scholarships were those who had in fact qualified for a sort of a prize. Certainly one thing on which the Australian Labor Party is quite clear is that all persons who are capable of benefiting from tertiary education should receive it. We shaM be able to arrive more easily at sensible conclusions about the purpose of education if the committees, such as those suggested in paragraph 2 of this amendment, are appointed. Paragraph b (ii) refers to inequalities of educational opportunities. Even if education to the tertiary level is made available to all persons - and it certainly is not in Australia - there still can be serious inequalities in educational opportunities depending upon the circumstances of the parents and the background in which the students have been raised. Recently in Sweden, where there has now been 35 years of Labor government and great advances have been made towards equalities of income and opportunity, the Swedish Minister for Education proposed that there should be a 10 per cent loading in examination marks for the qualification to enter universities given in favour of those young people who come from underprivileged homes. The argument which has been used in these cases is that such matters as intelligence, which can be measured by any form of testing, are to a very large extent derived from the background in which a person has grown up. Someone who comes from a background of literate parents, where there is an interest in learning and where time, opportunity and encouragement are given to engage in more serious activities, is given a very considerable start and this in fact can be identified by any intelligence quotient test, even though physically there is no means of detecting any superiority of one person over another. That has been found in particular in the United States of America where for a long time those people who were in favour of the subjugation of the black population argued that IQ tests in a number of schools showed that Negro children had a lower IQ than that of white children. 1964 10000 0 0 CORMACK, Magnus The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Senator Sir Magnus Cormack) - Order! The honourable senator's time has expired. 1964 7V4 Queensland 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES - I rise to say that I support this amendment in order to allow Senator Wheeldon to continue. 1964 CJO Western Australia 0 0 WHEELDON, John Senator WHEELDON - I thank Senator Georges. I wish to continue only very briefly. I do not wish to detain the Committee on this matter at any great length. I do not think there is any psychologist or reputable educationist in the United States who now would not agree that the difference in the IQs of young white people and young black people is due to the opportunities of young white people, which, in the majority of cases, were superior to those available to young black people and that with the spread of education among the black youth of the United States there has been a steady drawing closer of the IQs of both groups. Paragraph (c) of the motion refers to the establishment of commissions to investigate and make recommendations on the 3 major branches of education. The first concerns pre-school education - kindergarten and other forms of education which are given to very young children. This is a service which in the whole is grossly inadequate in this country. The second commission is to deal with primary and secondary education. This commission is to deal with the needs of primary and secondary schools in all systems of education throughout Australia. The third is to deal with tertiary education and in that field the Opposition envisages, as is expressed in this motion, the incorporation of all tertiary institutions including colleges of advanced education, teachers' training colleges and universities into one system. In this latter I believe that we have the support of a very considerable body of people interested in tertiary education. This support has been indicated by such diverse bodies as the Victorian Government which is proposing that degrees should be awarded to graduates of colleges of advanced education in addition to those which are awarded by universities. Whatever the merits of the proposal it does show an inclination towards the coordination of tertiary institutions such as colleges of advanced education and universities, in particular by the National Union of Australian University Students which recently changed both its name and its constitution to include amongst its members not only students at universities but also students at institutes of technology and colleges of advanced education. In addition to these commissions we advocate that there should be another commission of inquiry to co-ordinate all levels of education. Clearly if there is to be sensible education activity in the field of preschool, primary and secondary schools and the universities and other tertiary institutions there seems to be a need for some overall plan to co-ordinate all 3. They are all, in any event, inter-dependent, and in a society in which it is hoped that the highest education which is available to anyone will be available to every citizen who is capable of taking advantage of such education it is necessary that all these forms of education be co-ordinated. For this reason the commission which is referred to in paragraph (c) (iv) is included in the motion which I have moved. T commend the motion to the Senate. 1964 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - We have just listened to Senator Wheeldon who is apparently putting forward the chief points that the Opposition feels should be advanced on the subject of education. Apparently it is the object of the Opposition to take over education in its entirety and control it through the Commonwealth. Our position on the other hand is to recognise that the States have prime responsibility in this matter and to supplement their programme in co-operation with them in the areas of most significant need. With regard to the first proposition the honourable senator put regarding a Commonwealth-wide survey it should be remembered that that survey on the educational needs of the Commonwealth was arranged by the State Ministers for Education. It was not a Commonwealth project although the Minister for Education and Science (Mr N. H. Bowen) co-operated in it, together with his officers. However, it is a matter for the State Ministers to decide when the report of the survey should be published and all I can see is that on 1st September they released a 14-page statement as to the result of the survey. The position that has developed since then is that the Prime Minister (Mr Gorton) has asked each State Premier for his Government's view on the result of the survey and on the priority that the State governments would wish to accord to the needs of education at primary and secondary levels. It may well be that the State Education Ministers have stated aspirations which are in contrast to financial undertakings and financial programmes. The Minister for Education and Science has sought replies on various aspects of those proposals because he is examining the nation-wide survey in readiness to discuss the decisions that should be made. With regard to the second part of the resolution submitted to us, that we should establish committees of practically world-wide ambit in education and apparently absorbed in generality, it should not be forgotten that the Commonwealth has from time to time acted in consultation with the States to establish committees of inquiry into particular aspects of education much more productive of useful results than a generalised committee such as is proposed here. 1 mention that when we were about to enter upon a grand programme for university education we procured from England the services of Sir Hugh Murray and got together a committee which worked with him. They produced what everybody thought was a magnificent report on university education. The reports of the Martin Committee and the Wark Committee are well known. Some recent examples that have been of great benefit are the Wiltshire Committee which looked at the question of nomenclature and standards of awards in colleges of advanced education and the recent Auchmuty Committee which has just completed an examination of the teaching of Asian languages and cultures in Australia. The Commonwealth is co-operating with the States in the development of the curiculum for junior secondary science and for social sciences and the individual States have also established committees of inquiry. In 1968, for example, Tasmania appointed a committee to investigate the role of the school in society. Earlier the; year in Queensland the Radford Committee reported after a review of the system of public examinations for secondary schools. In South Australia a committee under Professor Karmel is presently carrying out a comprehensive inquiry into education in that State involving, 1 think as one aspect, the realm of independent schools. That report will, of course, be looked to by educationists as a useful guide. The third proposition put forward by the Opposition was that we should have a continuing commission to make recommendations on pre-school, primary, secondary and teritary education and the co-ordination of education at all levels. 1 ask the Senate to consider how wide would be the ambit of a commission such as that for the whole Commonwealth and whether we would derive beneficial results from such a proposal. I suggest that it is unlikely that we would, but in considering that proposal the Senate ought to recognise that education continues to be primarily the responsibility of the States, and die State governments are jealous of their interest in the subject of education. We ought not to advance a proposition of this sort unless it is sought by the State governments with our co-operation, and up to date they have not made any such proposal. Finally, I wish to make a few general comments that might indicate to the Senate that the policy of the Federal Government is to implement the State development of education and this can be seen, I think, by the magnificent degree of assistance that has been extended in the Federal sphere over the last 10 years. First of all, from 1961 to 1971 the direct Commonwealth expenditure in this field has increased from $54m to $3 12m per annum. Stated in another way it has increased from 1.9 per cent of the Budget 10 years ago to 4.4 per cent of the Budget this year. Another fact that may be of interest to the Committee is that the total expenditure on education by the State governments has increased from 25 per cent of total State revenue and known expenditure 10 years ago to an estimated 31 per cent this year. The total estimated expenditure on education in Australia - that is, combined Commonwealth and State - as a percentage of the gross national product has increased from 3.5 per cent in 1961-62 to 4.2 per cent in 1969-70. Another fact that may be of interest is that from 1958 to 1968 the pupil-teacher ratio has registered these figures: In government primary schools it felt from 32 to 28; in government secondary schools from 21 to 18 and in non-government schools from 34 to 29. To show the effect upon the youth section of the population itself, between 1959 and 1969 the proportion of teenagers from 15 to 18 years of age still at school rose from 25 per cent to 41 per cent. The last figure that I will give indicates that out of every 100,000 young people aged between 20 and 24 years, in 1958 500 obtained bachelor degrees at the university and in the year 1.968 the corresponding figure was 1,200. 1966 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - We are still lagging badly behind other countries. 1966 KBW 0 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - Senator Murphywill come in during the last remnants of a debate, purport to understand it and add some tag end to it which is simply tendentious and meaningless. Of course there are always things to be achieved in the field of education and health and those other areas of social improvement, but all I am saying is that the Labor Party proposition as I have stated it seems to be one generally of futility and the Government achievement, as I have stated it, over the last 10 years is one of significant improvement. I ask the Committee to reject the motion. 1966 1L5 New South Wales 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator MURPHY - I support the motion. Education for any country is far too important to be dealt with in the way it has been dealt with by Senator Wright who represents the Minister for Education and Science (Mr N. H. Bowen) in this chamber. It is too important to be brushed off as a matter for the States. It is too important to be left in the area where the Minister would like to leave it by saying: 'Oh, well, we have all sorts of demands in health and social services and education. Do not let us worry about it. Let us brush aside the brutal facts about education in Australia.' As has been demonstrated many times in this chamber by the late Senator Cohen and by educationists throughout Australia, education is at a deplorably low standard in Australia when one compares it to education in other advanced countries. It is true, as the Minister says, that we are spending about 4 per cent of our gross national product on education. The Minister say it has crept up from 4 per cent to 4.4 per cent, but it is about 4 per cent. That is not enough, and it is below other advanced countries. I entered into this debate to ask the Minister whether that was not so but he did not answer. He turned around to say something personal instead of telling the truth and saying: 'Yes, senator, we are spending less of our gross national product on education than other advanced countries'. The truth is that we are spending less and, of course, we are seeing the results of it, and those results are bad results. The children of Japan on a per capita basis at every stage get better educational opportunities than the children of Australia. More of them go to secondary school; more complete secondary school; more go to university; more complete university courses; more do post graduate courses and more get technical education. This is one of the reasons why Japan is shooting ahead in all fields. It is not only that their children are getting the education that they deserve as individuals, but this finds a result in the productivity of the country. And Japan is surging ahead in trade, commerce and every field. This is why Japan is bounding ahead: It is spending money on education and we should be doing the same. It is the responsibility of everyone in the community - it is not to be left to the States, the parents, the churches or anyone else - to see to it that Australian youth get the education they deserve. Anyone who does not realise that is not fit to represent the Minister for Education and Science. More money should be spent on education. There should be a better understanding of what the problems are in education so that we can see to it that money is spent in the best way. Inquiries should be held. We know that there has been a survey, and the people of Australia are entitled to know the results of that survey. Why have they not been published? The answer is simply that if the survey reflected credit on the Government it would publish the results. The fact is that the survey does not reflect any credit on the Government and that is why it does not want the people of Australia to know about it. That is why the results have been suppressed. Have honourable senators ever known the Government to hold back anything for which it could claim some credit and in respect of which it could say: 'We are doing a good job'? The Government tells us on such occasions. Good luck to it. When the Government suppresses something it is a discredit to the Government. The Government's performance in education has been discreditable. Australian educational authorities are demoralised. Teachers throughout the country and State Ministers foi Education are asking for more money. We are all aware of the disgraceful conditions under which children in our community are getting education. There are shortages of classrooms, shortages of teachers and changeovers in teachers. I wonder how the Minister can toss off the statements that he has made, talking about how many graduates we have and all this when he knows that this has to be judged against the background of our population and the background of what is happening in other countries. The Australian Labor Party has asked for an inquiry into education. Over the past years there have been similar proposals by the Labor Party. On 18th March 1969, pursuant to a notice that he had already given, the late Senator Cohen moved: That a select committee of the Senate be appointed to inquire into and report upon tile needs of pre-school, primary, secondary and technical education throughout Australia and to recommend such legislative and administrative measures by the Commonwealth as wilt enable (Inbest standards of education for all. Of course the Government voted against the motion and, unfortunately, it was joined by others in the Senate. I said 'the Government', but one Government senator voted with the Australian Labor Party to set up that committee which would have been an extremely valuable committee. It would have thrown light on the educational problems in Australia and given an opportunity to those who are concerned about them to put forward submissions. Now we have a motion, again emanating from the Australian Labor Party, which makes good sense. It states, in the first place, that we should have published immediately the results of the Commonwealth-States survey of educational needs and that there should be emergency grants in accordance with that survey. How can anyone reasonably object to the publication of the results of a no doubt expensive survey and a no doubt worthwhile survey, so that we can look at them? If there is something wrong, let those who disagree say so. But why hide it, except for the reason that I have already advanced? Why should emergency grants not be made in accordance with the proposals that have been made? If the Government does not want to act on them it should at least do something in the way of emergency action to deal with what is an emergency - and the situation of education in Australia is an emergency situation. Senator Wheeldonproposed that the Government establish committees - this motion to reduce the vote would be an instruction to the Government to do that - to examine and make recommendations on the objectives and quality of Australian education. Is that not necessary? They are to examine also inequalities of education opportunities. Who doubts that in this country inequalities of education opportunities exist? Go and look at the schools. I have in my hand something that was issued by the Council for the Defence of Government Schools, which I think has been sent out to members of Parliament and senators. Consider the disgraceful state of some schools. Take the State schools like the Kogarah school and others. Some honourable senators here are familiar with them. All over this country one can see schools that are a disgrace to a civilised society. Then one goes to other schools where the children are receiving the kind of education that they no doubt deserve. Everything is handed to them on a platter. They have not only school rooms and teachers but assembly halls, libraries and science blocks. Money is being poured into these schools by this Government. Some of the richest private schools in the country are having hundreds of thousands of dollars poured into them by this Government. I shall quote an example. 1 do not know the correctness of it but I think that this is the position. Scots College receives directly and indirectly from the Federal Government about $210 per child per year as do others in the same area. I mention Kambala in Rose Bay, Ascham and Cranbrook. They are only some in New South Wales. One can go through the other schools in the country and see that the richest schools, the ones that are best off, are getting more. That is an example of inequality of opportunity being exacerbated and aggravated by this Government instead of the inequalities being modified in an endeavour to give children a fair go as far as governments can do. Children differ in their abilities. They differ in their intelligence. But they ought not to have other inequalities forced on them. I refer to the inequalities caused by deprivation because this Government chooses to create and to worsen the financial inequalities between them. I would suggest that no reasonable person could object to an investigation of those inequalities. Senator Wheeldon also suggests that there be established continuing commissions to investigate and make recommendations on pre-schools, primary and secondary education and tertiary education. We know that there is some investigation of tertiary education. Senator Wheeldon said in regard to that, that the tertiary education commission should coordinate all forms of tertiary education including teachers colleges. The policy of the Australian Labor Party is that the Commonwealth ought to take over the entire financial responsibility for the teachers colleges, and it ought to be taking the entire financial responsibility for tertiary education. Primary, secondary and technical education obviously need a proper investigation. Continuing commissions are needed to act in regard to education at these levels. Does Australia deserve anything less than this? Is the Government going to go on from year to year, from election to election, doling out some kind of electoral bribe that it thinks will satisfy this section or that section of the community? Or is it going to go in and start to open up the problems of education? Let a commission of independent persons examine these problems and come up with the results, and let the Government act on them. The policy of my party is clear. We think that there should be such commissions. They should investigate the needs of all schools and of all children and they should recommend grants to be made according to those needs to meet the demands of proper education for children throughout Australia and on the basis of certain needs and priorities. Those needs and priorities are very important. They are set out in the platform of the Australian Labor Party, which states: the Commission shall have regard to: the primary obligation of governments to provide and maintain government school systems of the highest standard open to all children - That means Government schools first. The policy continues: the numbers of students enrolled in the various schools; the need to bring all schools up to acceptable standards; the need to ensure optimum use of resources in the establishment, maintenance and extension of schools. That broadly means not only government schools, but government schools first. I suggest to honourable senators that the proposal put forward by Senator Wheeldon is a wise one and that the Senate in its wisdom ought to adopt that policy so that Australia will face up to its responsibilities in education. These are national responsibilities and they ought to be dealt with by the Parliament of the nation taking this step. 1968 KMX Victoria 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - Senator Murphy, in the course of speaking to this amendment, stated that the Government's approach to education and its actions with regard to education were wholly discreditable. No-one with any sense of objectivity examining the record of what this Government has done in education over the last 13 years, could say that it is discreditable, and mean it. Ranting in a high octave does not make it so, either. Anyone who examines what this Government has done will see a range of activity of which any government would be proud. But the basic fact - this is something which Senator Murphy was inclined entirely to ignore - is that in Australia at the present time education is primarily a State matter. Each State has its own education department. Each State has an apparatus by which its education department is administered, by which schools are erected and maintained and by which teachers are trained. All the facilities necessary for the provision of education are in the hands of the States. Therefore, if the Commonwealth is to take any role in education which is an economic role and has regard to existing resources and the use of them, the role adopted by the Commonwealth must be a supplementary one. Yet Senator Murphy's whole approach was to suggest that the Australian Labor Party should ignore the existing resources in the States and seek to build up a separate edifice to exist alongside each State system. He believes that this is what the Australian people should pay for. He airily says that the Australian Labor Party would take over the entire cost of teacher training and the entire cost of tertiary institutions. What would it cost if the Commonwealth Government had to bear the entire cost of the universities and the colleges of advanced education? 1969 KRU 0 0 LITTLE, John Senator Little - He did not explain why the Labor Party had two different education policies in the last State election in Victoria. 1969 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - I am attracted by what Senator Little says, but I sense in this that there is a temptation to err and to stray from the theme which I am following. The point is that a Labor government - or any Australian Government - would have to find the money If the Commonwealth Government were to accept the responsibilities which Senator Murphy asserts. I ask - and T think it is a point which has to be made constantly - where is the Labor Party to find the money to enable these things to be given that priority which Senator Murphy claims for them? There is not a thing which this Government has done which is not challenged as being inadequate or indicated to the people that it would be better if only the Labor Party had the chance to spend more money on it. What has the Government clone in this area? Since 1957 the Government has accepted the responsibility for universities on a matching dollar for dollar basis with regard to capita) expenditure and on the basis of $1 for every $1.85 which the State governments spend with regard to recurrent expenditure. The Government also has assisted by way of the provision of science equipment and science facilities. Over the 7 years since this scheme was introduced $81 m has been provided. This assistance, of course, was provided only after the Murray Commission had recommended in 1963 that there was a dearth of science equipment and a dearth of science teaching in Australia and a need for this scarcity to be rectified if Australia's technology was to be adequate to what was expected in the years ahead. Since 1964 the Government has provided a considerable sum with regard to the provision of technical colleges throughout Australia. The new technical colleges which are being built in the various capital cities are being provided as a result of Commonwealth grants to the States. The Commonwealth has recognised a need for the provision of secondary school libraries. Again, these facilities have been provided because the Commonwealth granted $27m over the current 3-year period. If one looks at a wider field one finds that teacher training is an area in which the Commonwealth Government has accepted the primary responsibility. In the period from 1968 to 1973 there will be a total of $54m provided by the Commonwealth Government to the States for the purpose of providing teacher training colleges. These are unmatched grants. In addition, the Commonwealth Government has recognised that we have in Australia a dual system of education. For more than 100 years we have had independent schools and a State education system. Because the financial position of independent schools was such that many of them would have to close and, if they closed this would have imposed a burden and a heavy financial expenditure on the State institutions, the Commonwealth Government followed the lead which had been taken by the State governments and has provided aid for independent schools. 1969 KUS 0 0 MILLINER, Bertie Senator Milliner - Some do not know what to do with their money, senator, and you know it. 1969 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - I appreciate that there may be some problems with some of the so-called more wealthy schools. But no government. Liberal or Labor, in the States has devised an adequate means of distinguishing between independent schools. If there is such a means, I am sure that it will be looked at. But basically at present no discrimination is exercised in the manner in which the grants arc made to independent schools. For my part. I do not believe that any discriminatory basis should be adopted. The point 1 make is that over this current year a sum in excess of $24m has been provided by way of grants to independent schools. These are records of achievement and 1 have stated them without recourse to documents to list them seriatim and there are instances which I have missed. Nevertheless, this represents a solid contribution by the Commonwealth Government. As the Minister has said, in this current year the Commonwealth Government will provide $3 13m which represents a 25 per cent increase on the amount which the Commonwealth Government provided for education last year. This contribution was made in the context of a Budget in which the Government had to have regard to the other priorities which are constantly pressing upon a government. For instance, the Government had to consider the need to give taxation relief which everyone demanded prior to the Budget. Also, the Government had to have regard to its obligation to maintain a balanced economy. 1970 1L5 0 0 MURPHY, Lionel Senator Murphy - The Government is spending $500m a year in Vietnam. 1970 KMX 0 0 GREENWOOD, Ivor Senator GREENWOOD - If the argument that the Opposition uses now comes down to questioning what is happening in Vietnam, which has been the hoary shibboleth it has thrown up in the last 3 or 4 years, it seems to me that it is really devoid of argument on the merits of the educational programme. Senator Murphy wants to know why the Government has not published the survey of educational needs which was produced by the Australian Education Council. As Senator Wright has stated, this document was prepared by the States. The States have published a summary of this report. They have indicated that there is a shortfall of $14m between what they reasonably expect to be spent and what will be available to them. The reaction of the Commonwealth Government to this is that we are concerned to help but we want a realistic appraisement of how the money is to be spent. Two factors arise in this matter. The first is that earlier this year the Commonwealth Government very substantially increased the amount of general revenue assistance to the States, and therefore the ability of the States to provide moneys for education exceeds that which was the basis upon which this survey was made earlier this year. The second point is that if the Commonwealth Government is to provide assistance to the States for educational purposes, what is required is a survey of what is practicable. It is no good simply to say that there is a shortfall in money unless you have regard to whether or not the ways in which the money is likely to be spent by the States is feasible having regard to the public works programmes of the States and their other commitments. These are matters upon which the Commonwealth Government has been seeking information. Until the Government receives this information it is unable to say what its contribution will be. Of course, until this information is available to the Commonwealth Government the States have decided not to release the programme. I think a lot of people would like to see what is in this survey. I can only suppose that one of the reasons why the States have not produced this survey is that, in the light of what the Commonwealth Government has asked for, there would have to be some changes which they are not at this stage prepared to reveal publicly. I consider that the attack which has been made by the Australian Labor Party on the Government's educational programme is but one more electioneering effort which ignores the realities and seeks to make capital by the use of generalities and the loud voice. I trust that whenever an opportunity arises there will be recognition of the very signal achievements which this Government has been able to produce in a wide variety of fields in education, each one of them complementing existing State programmes. Question put: That the request (Senator Wheeldon's) be agreed to. The Committee divided. (The Chairman - Senator Bull) 24 24 Majority .. .. - AYES NOES Question so resolved in the negative. 1971 K1F Victoria 0 0 POYSER, Arthur Senator POYSER - I would like some answers to matters appertaining to Division 231 - Metric Conversion Board. I would like the Minister to advise me, if he is able, whether the Board is in operation yet, whether it has offices and is staffed and, if so, the address at which it is operating. I am quite certain there are many people concerned with conversion. They are interested to get information of value and I would be interested to know how far the establishment of the Metric Conversion Board has progressed. I know we appointed it but whether it is working at full pace is not yet known. 1971 KBW Tasmania LP Minister for Works 1 0 WRIGHT, Reginald Senator WRIGHT - The answer to the honourable senator's question is that the Board has had its first meeting. It has an executive member, a small staff and an office. I would regard the office probably as a preliminary office, but it is ready for work. Proposed expenditure agreed to. Department of External Territories Proposed expenditure, $104,616,000. 1971 7V4 Queensland 0 0 GEORGES, George Senator GEORGES - I move: That the House of Representatives be requested to amend the second schedule by reducing the proposed expenditure under Divisions 270 to 282 for the Department of External Territories, $104,616,000, by $2. As an indication to the Government: That the Senate is of the opinion that recent events in the Territory of Papua and New Guinea for which the Government is responsible constitute a danger to the civil liberties and rights of the people of those Territories. We have been concerned for some time with a trend which has been developing in the administration of the Territory of Papua and New Guinea. For the peoples of that area we have accepted rather reluctantly a responsibility which should have been accepted in full with a view to bringing to these people a society which would set an example to other similar societies throughout the world and to bringing to them a democratic system of government which would give them freedom to express themselves and to live a full life. Unfortunately, there have ben certain developments under this Government in the Territory which cause concern. I would like to go back to May this year and by way of explanation refer to an article headed 'Black Justice' written by Mr James Hall in the 'Bulletin' on 26th September 1970. The article said: In May this year an Administration Department head in Port Moresby sent a letter to the manager of Radio Rabaul instructing him how to use the Administration radio station as part of a programme to destroy a leader of the Mataungan Association, John Kaputin. Fortunately when the letter was made public the plot against the. Mataungan Association backfired and the Administration lost the round. The article continues: Nine months before in an unconnected episode the Territory's Public Solicitor, W. A. (Peter) Lalor, acting on behalf of some Bougainville natives took out a writ against the Administration. This Supreme Court writ challenged the validity of the mining ordinance and hence the whole multi-million-dollar Bougainville copper venture. Lalor lost, but he trod on a lot of toes and caused some discomfort to his Government bosses. Last week, like festering sores, the incidents surfaced again and this time they appeared to be connected. Again the Administration has more or less been caught out and again it has been by way of an official letter that has been made public - it reveals an apparent attempt- I give all these incidents in this form as the lead-up to a situation which brought before the Assembly in the Territory the Public Order Bill. I am leading to this point. The article continues: . . lo get at the Mataungan Association by applying pressure to the Public Solicitor. The issue started out as the question of whether or not the Public Solicitor's Office would give legal aid to the members of all the Tolai native Mataungan Association to fight tax evasion charges and lo take out a Supreme Court writ to challenge the validity of the presently constituted Gazelle Multiracial Government Council on New Britain. lt has now developed into a question of resolving the status of the office of the Papua-New Guinea Public Solicitor- whether it should be completely independent from the public service or not. The controversy started when the Mataungan members approached Lalor and sought legal aid from his office. Lalor determined that they had a case for aid and offered it. Then Law Secretary Lindsay Curtis stepped in and told Lalor that he was wrong. Lalor asked for it in writing and Curtis issued his directions. He later told the House of Assembly that he was merely outlining departmental policy. In this case it seemed to me a withdrawal of legal assistance for the people of the Territory. The article continues: Curtis did not order that the aid be completely denied to the Mataungans, only that it be withheld until two conditions had been satisfied. And this part I find to be outrageous: Th