LOL! Yup, it's way different in duels and what not. At
level 29 with my Shaman, I could easily beat my warrior friend in duels.
Now, he challenges me and I immediately run for the zone! With his crafted
bonsus and duel wielding... I'm cryin' in no time. I definitely do better
than that against mobs. Or maybe I just suck? His wizard beat my bard too!
In general I have to say that one of the most frustrating things about
leveling is losing a fights against greens... Humiliating.

And I did play with a 30-something Bard this weekend... and
OMG, Bards age very well... she was awesome! Got me into playing Tani again
:-)

Tani, Solusek Ro

-----Original Message-----
From: Kimes, Dean W.
[mailto:Dean_Kimes@...]
Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 11:33 AM
To: 'eqbards@onelist.com'
Subject: RE: [eqbards] RE: RE: Bellow
song Damage

From: "Kimes, Dean W."
<Dean_Kimes@...>

I definitely can't solo a blue in melee
without using my spells. A blue
ghoul I can narrowly beat weaving Warsong,
Hymn, and CoD or Bellow. That's
at level 19 with equipment that's probably
far above average for the most
part (All magical armor except for bearskin
boots). At 17 I was able to
solo blues a bit better, but never tried
without songs. Since the blue
ghoul took me down to 7hp I know I would
have lost without songs. Hymn
alone gave me about 60hp in the fight.
Bellow probably did about 70 more
points to the ghoul as well. That's 130 hp
difference, which probably
exceeds the value of your shaman buffs. I
doubt a bard could solo any xp
giving greens at 35th without songs. At
35th I imagine we are quite a bit
better than Shamans at melee (Marr knows I
hope so!) but I'm not seeing it
at 19th. Of course slam seems to work far
better on players than it does on
mobs. Our shaman stunned me 9 times in our
fight last nite. He often goes
thru a nites hunting with only 2 stuns on
critters.

Kitasi of E'ci

Well my Shaman is 35, and I
have decent armor for my level
nothing special. I have an observer staff
and am maxed (I think) for my
level in 2H blunt. And all I have to say is
that buffed up to the hilt, I
can MAYBE solo a blue in melee (not using
DOT and DD)...but I doubt it.
This is strict melee. Even when I use my
spells, I still need to kite a
little to be comfortable. My bard is only
17 and does just fine on a
blue... I don't know how she will be at 35
yet.

I guess my point (do I have
one here?) is that my bard kicks
ass in melee compared to my shaman (can't
say about other hybrid classes or
about other bards or other shaman). Shaman
are best at niche filling -
turning the tide of battle in our favor,
whether by buffing, debuffing or a
nicely placed heal or DD. Maybe bards are
best at that too, with a slight
emphasis on getting in there and fighting.
But if my shaman is taking hits,
I crumple just about as fast as a wizard :-)

Tani 17th Bard
Halana 35th Shaman
Solusek Ro

-----Original Message-----
From:
Kimes, Dean W.
[mailto:Dean_Kimes@...]
Sent:
Monday, November 15, 1999 11:09 AM
To:
'eqbards@onelist.com'
Subject:
RE: [eqbards] RE: RE: Bellow
song Damage

From:
"Kimes, Dean W."
<Dean_Kimes@...>

If you jump
off a 10 story building you will
fall. That is a fact.
If you jump
off a 10 story building you will
die. That is not a fact.

You are the
only person I know who does not
know the difference between a
fact and an
opinion.

Maybe Bards
eventually become better than
Shamans in melee, but not at level
17. Dual
wield was not sufficient to
prevent me from being pummeled due to
the numerous
stuns I received. All shamans
have slam. Sure it never goes
up, but it
is still sufficient to stun a
17th level bard.

Bards are
better than all hybrids in magical
power? Under what microscope
did you
determine that? At lower levels its
obviously true as the other
hybrids have
no magical power. Hmm lets
examine them at higher levels.
Paladin get
Greater Heal, 400 hp that's 3
minutes worth of Hymn with a lute
and it takes
them less time than that to
meditate back the mana. They also
get Revive
at their utmost level of spell
use. Not to mention Lay Hands.
Rangers
probably have the weakest line of
spells getting nothing above Heal,
though they
do get Wolf Form, cool but not
overly powerful. Shadowknights
spells are
fearsome. The Engulfing Darkness
DoT line is devastating as it
destroys our
best defense, Acellerando and
it stacks with their Heat Blood.
They also
now have the lifetap series. All
this aside their Harm Touch
alone is a
devastating if slow to recharge
weapon. We do have a greater
number of
spells than the other hybrids do
though. Are our abilities
obviously
better, I would not say so.
Better in a full group of six maybe,
better in
small groups, that's not apparent.
Even if we were better it
certainly
would not be 5-6 times better and
that's how the other hybrids
relate to us
in terms of melee skills.

Now since I
have stated that bards magical
abilities might not be so much
better than
some of the other hybrids,
rangers excluded as their spells are
truly weak,
feel free to call me a liar.
That will just be one more
definition
you will need to look up on
Merriam-Webster Online, right after
'fact'.

To further
turn your argument around:
Bards cannot
beat any caster consistently in
pure magical combat. (though
I've come
close with Maxell MR)
Bards cannot
beat any other hybrid or melee
type consistently in pure melee
combat.

Neither of
those statements however true
prove we are weaker than those
classes any
more than yours prove we are
equal in power. In my opinion, we
are weaker
than several of the other
classes. The weakness is not generally
overbearing
but that doesn't mean it
shouldn't be corrected. To be honest I
think a
realignment of our skills would
suffice to bridge the gap without

modifications to our spells other than
including the missing ones and fixing
the broken
ones. An added melee skill like
Parry which succeeds more often
than Dodge,
and some raised caps on skills
that are currently of debatable
usefulness
would help as well. Most
Jack-of-all-trades are seen as

self-sufficient characters while we are
definitely not designed to be very
capable on
our own. We do best in groups
due to the nature of our spells.
It is this
very grouping nature that further
undermines the usefulness of
our other
skills as there will often be
present others in the group whose
skill so far
overshadows ours in those other
areas that we might as well not
have the
skill at all. There is no benefit
to having Find Traps and Pick
Locks when
there is a rogue in the group
with more than double your skill.
If we were
meant to be characters who could
function on their own and do
nearly
everything, if not well, that would
be different. However, we are
not. We are
meant to group and for every
member we add to our group some of
our skills
become superfluous just as our
magical powers become more potent.

Kitasi

From: "Wayne
Sheppard"
<mrwayne@...>

1. Bards are
better than all Pure Casters
and Priests in melee. (MAG, WIZ,
ENC, NEC,
CLR, SHA, DRU)
2. Bards are
better than all hybrids in
magical power. (PAL, RNG, SK)

The above
statements are facts and cannot be
disputed. Every Bard should
understand
these facts.

If someone
tries to contradict one of the
above statements, I will point
them out as
a liar. Especially to those
Bards who have been on this list
quite a
while.

As to the
nature of my messages, in the past
I have made some poor choices.
But I've
tried to do better. I looked at my
last five messages and saw
nothing out
of the ordinary. I'd be glad to
discuss any of my posts with
you or
anyone else in private, not on the
list.

Wayne

> From:

"G.W. Willman, IV"
<gww6e@...>

> Subject:

RE: RE: Bellow song Damage

>
> Wayne,
>
> Just

curious, what server do you play
on and do you play a bard? The

> reason I

ask is because you emails are
consistently sniping in nature and

> generally

flamebait. I'll be the first to
defend your right to free
speech

> however I

would ask that you perhaps
temper somewhat your future remarks

> with the

fact this is a public forum meant
for discussion -- closing doors

> via naked

accusations and bombastic
proclamations offers little room for

> such to

take place on a mutually
respectful level.

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